WEBVTT - Wait, Did Zuckerberg Get Off Easy? 0:00:00.140 --> 0:00:02.440 A few weeks ago, Meta looked like it was in 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:03.120 deep trouble. 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:06.300 Meta is back on trial in what could be the 0:00:06.340 --> 0:00:10.480 most consequential moment in social media history. This trial could 0:00:10.619 --> 0:00:14.010 change how teenagers and kids use the platform in the future. 0:00:15.190 --> 0:00:16.489 As a lot of you will know from listening to 0:00:16.530 --> 0:00:18.989 our show, I'm very interested in the recent wave of 0:00:19.070 --> 0:00:22.930 court cases against social media companies for hurting kids. There 0:00:22.950 --> 0:00:24.930 was the woman who won against Meta and YouTube in 0:00:24.950 --> 0:00:28.610 California earlier this year for millions of dollars for addicting 0:00:28.630 --> 0:00:30.470 her to their apps as a teen. And there was 0:00:30.510 --> 0:00:33.190 a trial we sent reporters to in New Mexico where 0:00:33.250 --> 0:00:35.890 Meta was ordered to pay nearly a billion dollars and 0:00:35.930 --> 0:00:39.870 make certain changes to its apps. These were important wins, 0:00:40.270 --> 0:00:43.070 but they were also kind of patchwork. The changes Meta 0:00:43.110 --> 0:00:45.229 was forced to make to Instagram and Facebook in the 0:00:45.270 --> 0:00:48.140 New Mexico case, for instance, they only apply in that state. 0:00:48.780 --> 0:00:50.960 And Meta's appealing in any way, so they could be 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.779 delayed for years. The evidence that's come out in these 0:00:53.820 --> 0:00:57.610 cases is so damning. showing that Meta studied the teen 0:00:57.650 --> 0:01:01.500 brain to build features that would purposefully hook kids, and 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:05.339 that Mark Zuckerberg himself made decisions to keep features despite 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.020 knowing how dangerous they could be. What I was craving 0:01:09.380 --> 0:01:12.199 as a parent and as someone who covers this is 0:01:12.220 --> 0:01:15.140 a more comprehensive punishment for the company, and really an 0:01:15.380 --> 0:01:18.350 overhaul to their apps and their business that will stop 0:01:18.370 --> 0:01:20.890 them from doing it again. And it seemed like we 0:01:20.910 --> 0:01:23.570 could actually get that with a new trial that began 0:01:23.610 --> 0:01:26.110 in Oakland a few weeks ago. This was part of 0:01:26.150 --> 0:01:29.150 a giant series of lawsuits brought by nearly all of 0:01:29.190 --> 0:01:32.510 the U.S. states and territories. If the states won this case, 0:01:32.890 --> 0:01:34.910 the first of these child harm cases to be tried 0:01:34.950 --> 0:01:38.080 in federal court, Instagram and Facebook could have been forced 0:01:38.100 --> 0:01:41.480 to make big changes to their apps nationwide, such as 0:01:41.540 --> 0:01:45.819 removing the recommendation algorithm for all teens. And the numbers 0:01:45.900 --> 0:01:48.419 being floated for how much Meta would need to pay 0:01:48.900 --> 0:01:54.080 in this case ranged from $ 200 billion to to $ 1. 4 trillion, 0:01:54.540 --> 0:01:56.400 close to the company's entire market cap. 0:01:56.700 --> 0:02:00.900 The financial implications could be massive, billions of dollars hanging 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:01.620 in the balance. 0:02:03.340 --> 0:02:06.340 Meta had tried a last-ditch effort to get this trial 0:02:06.420 --> 0:02:09.870 blocked by using Section 230, the law, of course, that 0:02:09.910 --> 0:02:13.450 has long shielded social media companies from trials over content 0:02:13.470 --> 0:02:16.150 on their platforms. But the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals 0:02:16.230 --> 0:02:19.570 ruled against Meta. So the trial got going, and eight 0:02:19.610 --> 0:02:22.490 days in, Meta was on the back foot. Its executives 0:02:22.510 --> 0:02:25.109 were getting grilled publicly on the stand. There was a 0:02:25.169 --> 0:02:29.410 real possibility Mark Zuckerberg could be called. And then, right 0:02:29.450 --> 0:02:32.440 in the middle of the trial, as the head of Instagram, 0:02:32.660 --> 0:02:37.000 Adam Masseri, was testifying, came an announcement. Meta has reached 0:02:37.060 --> 0:02:40.460 a settlement in a landmark social media trial. The state 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.060 settled with Meta, 47 of them, along with Puerto Rico, D.C., 0:02:44.090 --> 0:02:44.649 and other U.S. 0:02:44.690 --> 0:02:45.230 Territories. 0:02:46.169 --> 0:02:48.690 They won some of what they asked for. Meta agreed 0:02:48.710 --> 0:02:51.790 to make certain changes. like limiting teens to two hours 0:02:51.830 --> 0:02:54.730 a day on Instagram and Facebook, turning off access at night, 0:02:55.250 --> 0:02:58.430 investing in better checks for users' ages, and allowing parents 0:02:58.450 --> 0:03:01.750 the choice to make their kids' feeds chronological instead of 0:03:01.790 --> 0:03:05.029 driven by the recommendation algorithm. Meta also agreed to pay 0:03:05.030 --> 0:03:09.860 $ 17 billion. Attorneys general across the country are selling this 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.120 as a huge win for them and for kids. But 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.459 I couldn't help but feel disappointed. It still feels piecemeal. 0:03:16.780 --> 0:03:20.370 A small modification here, another one there. rather than the big, 0:03:20.590 --> 0:03:24.310 drastic reimagining that seemed warranted. And it's not just me. 0:03:24.830 --> 0:03:27.590 Others have weighed in. This is still chump change. I mean, 0:03:27.630 --> 0:03:30.690 this is a company that makes a huge amount of money. 0:03:30.889 --> 0:03:33.720 It's like they just paid people to just keep on 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:34.940 making death machines. 0:03:35.460 --> 0:03:38.220 The Florida attorney general, who is also suing Meta but 0:03:38.340 --> 0:03:42.260 held out from settling, called the payouts peanuts. Meta's stock 0:03:42.540 --> 0:03:45.470 rallied after the settlement, enough to pay for the $ 17 billion. 0:03:46.450 --> 0:03:50.720 What's more, Arturo Behar... a whistleblower from Facebook who testified 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.110 for the states in this case, said after they settled 0:03:54.410 --> 0:03:57.650 that the changes the AGs got wouldn't have prevented many 0:03:57.670 --> 0:03:59.970 of the teen deaths that have been blamed on social media. 0:03:59.990 --> 0:04:02.730 The good way to think about what happened is we're 0:04:02.750 --> 0:04:05.710 telling teens that it's OK to smoke cigarettes for two 0:04:05.730 --> 0:04:06.170 hours a. 0:04:06.150 --> 0:04:08.970 Day rather than as much as they could. And that's 0:04:09.070 --> 0:04:09.810 just not enough. 0:04:11.180 --> 0:04:12.900 It seemed like the states were in a position to 0:04:13.020 --> 0:04:16.320 finally take meta to task. for building products they knew 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.779 were dangerous and getting millions of kids hooked on them 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.419 for massive profits. The states had two jury victories at 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.029 their backs. Meta was feeling the pressure. Why did they 0:04:26.070 --> 0:04:29.529 give in? Do the attorneys general really see this settlement 0:04:29.570 --> 0:04:31.650 as a win? Or are they spinning it as one 0:04:31.910 --> 0:04:34.930 when really they wanted a lot more? So I called 0:04:34.970 --> 0:04:37.710 up the AG who led the settlement negotiations with Meta. 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:38.800 to ask him. 0:04:39.260 --> 0:04:42.220 Some big companies have armies of lawyers. Meta has armies 0:04:42.260 --> 0:04:44.890 of law firms. I mean, their resources are basically those 0:04:44.910 --> 0:04:45.969 of like a nation state. 0:04:46.410 --> 0:04:49.330 From Placement Theory and KCRW, this is Question Everything. We 0:04:49.350 --> 0:04:52.830 investigate how the truth gets buried, distorted, and denied, and 0:04:52.850 --> 0:04:54.740 the ways people are fighting to make it matter again. 0:04:55.300 --> 0:04:58.700 I'm Brian Reed. Today, my interview with the Attorney General 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:08.620 of Tennessee. Stick around. Hi, Attorney General Scarametti. How are you? 0:05:08.860 --> 0:05:10.039 Good. Good to meet you. 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.919 Jonathan Scarametti is the Attorney General of Tennessee. He was 0:05:13.980 --> 0:05:17.320 one of the 40-some-odd state attorneys general suing Metta for 0:05:17.370 --> 0:05:20.050 harming teens in his state. His legal team had actually 0:05:20.250 --> 0:05:23.070 just concluded their own trial against the company in state 0:05:23.110 --> 0:05:25.930 court and were waiting for a verdict on that as 0:05:25.990 --> 0:05:28.990 the federal trial began in Oakland. And as all this 0:05:29.010 --> 0:05:32.000 was happening, Scarametti had also been chosen by his fellow 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.360 attorneys general to represent them in settlement negotiations with Metta. 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.380 Scramendi's a Republican. He led the negotiations alongside Colorado's attorney general, 0:05:40.620 --> 0:05:44.140 a Democrat. They both have experience dealing with tech. Scramendi's 0:05:44.180 --> 0:05:47.200 led lawsuits against Google and Roblox. He also used to 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.420 teach cyber law at the University of Memphis. So he 0:05:50.460 --> 0:05:52.460 and the Colorado AG were the ones who'd get on 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.020 the phone with Mehta's lawyers, then report back to the 0:05:55.100 --> 0:05:57.790 larger group of AGs trying to hammer out a deal. 0:05:58.620 --> 0:06:01.390 But nothing had come of it all year until this 0:06:01.470 --> 0:06:04.940 sudden settlement was announced mid-trial. I read that at one point, 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.409 as you were discussing the settlement and whether to take it, 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:10.940 you turned to your fellow attorneys general from different states 0:06:10.980 --> 0:06:13.900 around the country and said, there's a saying here in Tennessee, 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.250 pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. Is that true? 0:06:17.290 --> 0:06:17.930 Did you say that? 0:06:18.990 --> 0:06:19.230 I did. 0:06:19.250 --> 0:06:19.950 Yeah. 0:06:20.570 --> 0:06:24.310 Why did you think you were going to get slaughtered? Well, politically, 0:06:24.390 --> 0:06:26.450 maybe it is better to go through to the end 0:06:26.490 --> 0:06:29.409 of trial and just sock it to them. But when 0:06:29.450 --> 0:06:32.930 we started this years ago, the goal was always to 0:06:32.990 --> 0:06:35.830 solve the problem. We want to do whatever we can 0:06:36.010 --> 0:06:39.570 collectively as the attorneys general of the states that we 0:06:39.610 --> 0:06:44.310 represent to protect our kids. I mean, if the goal 0:06:44.330 --> 0:06:47.299 was to just whack the money pinata that is meta 0:06:47.420 --> 0:06:51.739 until as many dollars as possible were extracted, that doesn't 0:06:51.779 --> 0:06:54.339 necessarily do the kids any good. It drags the cases 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:58.170 out and it creates a lot of risk. And Getting 0:06:58.190 --> 0:07:01.430 a framework in place that actually limits the harm that 0:07:01.450 --> 0:07:04.929 the platform can do is better for us than having, 0:07:05.450 --> 0:07:08.550 you know, five to 10 years of appeals against an 0:07:08.650 --> 0:07:15.170 extremely well-resourced, extremely sophisticated opponent who could potentially invalidate everything 0:07:15.190 --> 0:07:16.090 that we've been doing. 0:07:16.980 --> 0:07:19.510 Attorney General Scarametti told me he was particularly worried that 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.340 Metta could keep wielding Section 230 in appeal courts, potentially 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.500 all the way up to the Supreme Court, and ultimately 0:07:25.540 --> 0:07:28.140 get the whole case thrown out. Still, I told him 0:07:28.260 --> 0:07:30.640 from where I was watching, it seemed like he and 0:07:30.660 --> 0:07:33.220 the other attorneys general had the upper hand here. You know, 0:07:33.260 --> 0:07:36.780 you'd had two juries in other states who had landed 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.240 major defeats to Meta. Meta was being forced to disclose 0:07:40.300 --> 0:07:43.430 lots of damaging info publicly at trial. There was talk 0:07:43.470 --> 0:07:46.290 of Mark Zuckerberg possibly having to testify. You're in the 0:07:46.310 --> 0:07:49.850 middle of trial, mid-testimony of the head of Instagram. Why 0:07:49.870 --> 0:07:51.250 did you give in? 0:07:51.290 --> 0:07:55.140 It felt disappointing. There's never been... settlement like this in 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.080 the tech industry. You know, we banged our head against 0:07:58.100 --> 0:08:00.740 the wall with the antitrust suits against these big companies. 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.190 We outright lost the Facebook monopoly case. So we've had 0:08:05.230 --> 0:08:09.190 some frustrations where everything looks like it's going our way, 0:08:09.310 --> 0:08:11.330 or at least we feel pretty good about our cases. 0:08:12.130 --> 0:08:14.890 You know, we gave up on some glory and we 0:08:14.930 --> 0:08:19.060 gave up on the catharsis of getting the jury verdict returned. 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.560 But All of that was in furtherance of the long-term 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.280 strategy of finding the most effective way to protect kids 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:30.670 in our states. And so, you know, it's the nerdier outcome. 0:08:30.790 --> 0:08:34.069 It's the blander outcome. I think it's the more lasting outcome. 0:08:34.710 --> 0:08:37.810 This is injunctive relief beyond what a lot of us 0:08:37.850 --> 0:08:39.470 thought we would be able to get out of this, 0:08:39.950 --> 0:08:41.390 or at least than I thought we would get. 0:08:41.670 --> 0:08:44.850 Injunctive relief is the changes that META agreed to make 0:08:44.929 --> 0:08:47.090 to its products, basically, and its practices. 0:08:47.190 --> 0:08:51.280 Right, right. Changing the platform was always the number one priority. 0:08:51.300 --> 0:08:54.900 AG Scrimetti says the big win here is not the 0:08:54.980 --> 0:08:57.990 money Meta agreed to pay. It's the redesigns the company 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.810 committed to make to Instagram and Facebook. After this settlement, 0:09:02.309 --> 0:09:04.309 kids will have a pretty different experience on these apps. 0:09:05.090 --> 0:09:06.550 Teens will only be able to use them up to 0:09:06.650 --> 0:09:09.290 two hours a day, and they'll get an alert after 0:09:09.410 --> 0:09:13.030 every 15 minutes of continuous screen use. They'll no longer 0:09:13.090 --> 0:09:17.829 get those unsolicited push notifications during school hours. and teens' 0:09:17.910 --> 0:09:20.620 feeds will be shut off between midnight and 6 a.m. 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.540 Parents will also get new controls over their kids' accounts. 0:09:25.140 --> 0:09:27.380 For instance, parents will now be able to choose whether 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.420 their kids are exposed to Facebook and Instagram's recommendation algorithm, 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.359 which was modeled after a slot machine and shown to 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.230 be addictive. They'll also get to choose whether to turn 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.950 on features such as light counts and beauty filters for 0:09:39.970 --> 0:09:43.150 their kids that have been shown to lead to depression, anxiety, 0:09:43.450 --> 0:09:47.740 and body dysmorphia. To implement all this, Meta has agreed 0:09:47.770 --> 0:09:50.679 to specific improvements in the way it checks users' ages. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.180 Meta will also have to give access to an auditor 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.870 that the states will appoint to make sure the company 0:09:55.890 --> 0:09:58.449 is doing everything it said it would. The closest thing 0:09:58.470 --> 0:10:01.479 to a regulator this industry has seen. Scrimendi told me 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.320 he's very skeptical they would have gotten changes this strong 0:10:04.660 --> 0:10:06.240 if they'd left it to the whim of a jury 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:06.939 or judge. 0:10:07.660 --> 0:10:09.980 I think we would have had some time restrictions. I 0:10:10.020 --> 0:10:13.540 think we would have had some, you know, some limitations 0:10:13.620 --> 0:10:16.220 on notifications. I don't think we would have had the 0:10:16.380 --> 0:10:19.280 option for parents to turn off the algorithmic feed altogether. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.660 I think that's the best outcome here, right, is just 0:10:22.179 --> 0:10:27.080 switching to a chronological feed. Giving parents that option takes 0:10:27.140 --> 0:10:30.940 away so many of the problems and lets kids enjoy 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.040 the benefit of connecting with their friends without subjecting them 0:10:34.110 --> 0:10:37.510 to all of the algorithmic chicanery that warped their brains. 0:10:38.350 --> 0:10:40.010 I think there would have been a lot of reluctance 0:10:40.070 --> 0:10:41.830 on the part of a court to dig into the 0:10:41.870 --> 0:10:48.590 machinery of addiction inside the platform as thoroughly and effectively 0:10:48.630 --> 0:10:50.030 as I think we're able to do with the deal. 0:10:50.110 --> 0:10:53.370 And it's really using a hatchet where the settlement lets 0:10:53.429 --> 0:10:54.290 us take a scalpel. 0:10:54.650 --> 0:10:56.130 I mean, we have an example to look at in 0:10:56.170 --> 0:10:58.720 New Mexico, which we've reported on here that did go 0:10:58.750 --> 0:11:01.960 through a trial where eventually a judge issued a court 0:11:02.010 --> 0:11:04.540 order doing what you're saying. He did go through a 0:11:04.700 --> 0:11:09.059 lot of very detailed or relatively detailed, I think, features 0:11:09.100 --> 0:11:12.010 on the platform. And some he said, I don't I 0:11:12.030 --> 0:11:13.890 think I'm restricted in weighing in on these others. He 0:11:13.929 --> 0:11:17.929 did weigh in on sometimes as granular as hours when 0:11:18.510 --> 0:11:22.050 a platform can send notifications, you know, to kids. So 0:11:22.950 --> 0:11:24.630 did you look at that? Cause it came out kind 0:11:24.650 --> 0:11:26.350 of as you were in the midst of your trial 0:11:26.670 --> 0:11:28.229 and did it play a role in your decision to 0:11:28.290 --> 0:11:30.929 settle seeing how the judge had, you know, kind of 0:11:30.970 --> 0:11:32.550 dealt with those issues in New Mexico? 0:11:34.450 --> 0:11:36.290 We did look at it and in some ways we 0:11:36.309 --> 0:11:37.910 were able to do better. I mean, in terms of 0:11:37.929 --> 0:11:40.069 the time limits over the course of a month, um, 0:11:41.100 --> 0:11:43.800 you know, the New Mexico judge allowed more hours than 0:11:43.870 --> 0:11:45.150 our settlement agreement allows. 0:11:45.730 --> 0:11:47.750 So it's like New Mexico got three hours per day 0:11:47.910 --> 0:11:50.610 of a limit, roughly, and you all got two hours 0:11:50.650 --> 0:11:50.970 per day. 0:11:51.270 --> 0:11:51.670 Correct. 0:11:52.490 --> 0:11:54.610 It is also true that the judge in New Mexico, 0:11:54.910 --> 0:11:58.100 in his ruling against Meta, declined to force the company 0:11:58.150 --> 0:12:01.020 to change its algorithm at all, even though he acknowledged 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.300 that it seriously addicted and harmed kids. The judge said 0:12:04.380 --> 0:12:06.920 Section 230 and the First Amendment tied his hands there. 0:12:07.660 --> 0:12:10.650 By negotiating with Meta in a settlement, Scermetti and the 0:12:10.730 --> 0:12:13.860 other attorneys general were able to circumvent that legal hurdle. 0:12:14.410 --> 0:12:16.500 And he told me it was hard won. They tried 0:12:16.510 --> 0:12:19.840 to get Meta to remove the recommendation algorithm altogether for kids. 0:12:20.340 --> 0:12:24.620 Which, in an ideal world, would be how this was implemented. 0:12:24.700 --> 0:12:28.160 To say, hey, for kids, we're not going to use 0:12:28.500 --> 0:12:31.440 the addictive content delivery system that we've worked so hard 0:12:31.460 --> 0:12:31.920 to develop. 0:12:32.540 --> 0:12:34.959 But Meta refused to go that far. I guess that's 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.860 how valuable the algorithm is to them. In keeping users, 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:42.490 even kids under 18, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. And what did 0:12:42.570 --> 0:12:44.790 you got? So is it the default that the algorithm 0:12:44.850 --> 0:12:47.370 is on for kids or the default that it's off? 0:12:48.130 --> 0:12:51.340 The default is that it's on. Parents can turn it off. Okay. 0:12:51.510 --> 0:12:55.960 So we weren't able to completely eliminate the algorithm. But, 0:12:56.179 --> 0:12:58.660 you know, I think the New Mexico experience shows that 0:12:58.820 --> 0:13:02.620 is not something likely if we want to trial. I mean, 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.340 that's a huge move for a court to make to 0:13:05.380 --> 0:13:09.050 say we're going to completely rewrite how your business interacts 0:13:09.070 --> 0:13:11.620 with with children at the most fundamental level. 0:13:12.380 --> 0:13:15.820 It struck me, talking to Attorney General Scarametti, how fearful 0:13:15.900 --> 0:13:19.680 he was, not only of Metta's legal prowess, but of 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.350 the laws he has to operate within in general when 0:13:22.450 --> 0:13:25.270 suing a social media company like Metta. I could hear 0:13:25.330 --> 0:13:28.270 him navigating all these legal tripwires as he gamed out 0:13:28.330 --> 0:13:31.209 his different paths. Section 230 could trip me up if 0:13:31.250 --> 0:13:33.410 I try to go for this. The First Amendment could 0:13:33.429 --> 0:13:34.720 get in the way if I try to get that. 0:13:35.550 --> 0:13:38.530 Those laws are huge protections Meta and other social media 0:13:38.570 --> 0:13:43.620 companies have from liability. Meanwhile, Congress and state legislatures have 0:13:43.740 --> 0:13:46.860 not passed strong regulations for social media, which leaves the 0:13:46.900 --> 0:13:49.760 attorneys general without much to draw on. They have to 0:13:49.820 --> 0:13:52.059 come up with inventive ways to use laws that were 0:13:52.140 --> 0:13:55.640 not written for tech to go after these companies, like 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.520 old consumer protection laws that have traditionally been used to 0:13:58.540 --> 0:14:01.949 go after companies selling defective toys or cars, or public 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.170 nuisance laws that that previously applied to factories that are 0:14:05.190 --> 0:14:08.030 polluting the air. They've had to wield those against Meta, 0:14:08.610 --> 0:14:11.010 all the while worrying if they make one wrong move, 0:14:11.570 --> 0:14:14.460 will it bring their whole case crashing down? I want 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.180 to ask you quickly about age verification, even though it's 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:18.000 not a quick subject. 0:14:18.420 --> 0:14:19.160 Okay, cool. 0:14:20.220 --> 0:14:22.320 As we've gone into in other episodes, one of the 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.340 questions that shoots through all these cases with social media 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.000 is how are these companies verifying the ages of their users? 0:14:29.020 --> 0:14:32.720 If you're going to have specific restrictions for teens... you 0:14:32.740 --> 0:14:35.360 need to know that they are, in fact, teens. When 0:14:35.380 --> 0:14:37.800 people sign up for Instagram or Facebook, they just have 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.300 to give their age on the honor system. And the 0:14:40.340 --> 0:14:43.420 company knows that, for instance, kids under the age of 13, 0:14:43.420 --> 0:14:45.580 which is Meta's own cutoff for being old enough to 0:14:45.660 --> 0:14:48.860 use its apps, routinely lie to get on them. The 0:14:48.900 --> 0:14:52.250 company doesn't require IDs, and the new settlement doesn't require 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.990 them either. That would be called age verification. What Meta 0:14:56.010 --> 0:14:58.290 has agreed to with Tennessee and the other states is 0:14:58.330 --> 0:15:01.370 to get better at what's known in industry jargon as 0:15:01.650 --> 0:15:05.770 age assurance. which is using various other tactics like having 0:15:05.790 --> 0:15:09.080 their AI monitor users' posts or see the ages of 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.080 their friends, things like that, to ferret out which accounts 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.120 might be underage. What did you get that's key that 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.740 you feel like this is going to be better, like 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.920 we're actually going to know who are kids and who aren't? 0:15:20.660 --> 0:15:23.470 I mean, the best thing about it is it exists, right? 0:15:23.490 --> 0:15:26.610 We have a state statute that attempts to impose age verification. 0:15:26.650 --> 0:15:29.720 We are getting whooped in court. trying to implement that. 0:15:30.060 --> 0:15:32.740 So it's either nothing or something. They were willing to 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:34.820 concede to something that I don't know that we could 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:35.900 have otherwise obtained. 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.660 And what did they agree to? Like, what's the highlight? 0:15:39.420 --> 0:15:40.860 I mean, the highlight is they're going to use the 0:15:40.900 --> 0:15:43.980 data that they have to have a very good idea 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.740 of whether an individual user is a particular age. And 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.340 this is a very technical discussion. I'm not super in 0:15:51.380 --> 0:15:54.850 the weeds. There were some staff members that just lived 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:56.300 nothing but age assurance. 0:15:56.950 --> 0:15:57.290 Bless them. 0:15:57.390 --> 0:15:59.170 Getting to an agreement that they felt good about. 0:15:59.230 --> 0:15:59.390 Yeah. 0:15:59.550 --> 0:15:59.990 Bless them. 0:16:00.850 --> 0:16:03.190 I asked our producer, Zach St. Louis, who was part 0:16:03.210 --> 0:16:05.150 of our coverage of the New Mexico trial, became our 0:16:05.170 --> 0:16:09.250 show's resident reporter on age verification. Bless him. To take 0:16:09.270 --> 0:16:11.550 a look at the concessions Scermetti and co. got here. 0:16:12.130 --> 0:16:14.730 And he said what Meta agreed to does go further 0:16:14.770 --> 0:16:17.810 than they have before. In New Mexico, even though the 0:16:17.850 --> 0:16:20.810 state won the case at trial, the judge forced Meta 0:16:20.830 --> 0:16:23.220 to do less on age checks than the company agreed 0:16:23.250 --> 0:16:26.180 to in this settlement. The New Mexico judge said Meta 0:16:26.220 --> 0:16:30.200 had to, quote, improve on age assurance. Attorney General Scrimetti 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.820 and his colleagues got Meta to commit to specific accuracy 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.400 targets in identifying underage accounts and getting them off the app. 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.340 And Meta agreed to have an auditor who will hold 0:16:40.380 --> 0:16:43.610 them to those targets. Scrimetti doesn't know if they would 0:16:43.630 --> 0:16:45.810 have been able to accomplish that if they'd stayed in court. 0:16:46.650 --> 0:16:48.770 We are going to have a lot more age assurance 0:16:48.810 --> 0:16:52.050 than we currently have. And so that's another win where 0:16:52.070 --> 0:16:53.770 you look at what the alternative would be if we 0:16:53.810 --> 0:16:55.750 hadn't been able to reach an agreement. And the alternative 0:16:55.790 --> 0:16:56.960 might have been we get nothing. 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.139 Coming up, the biggest demand Meta had in order to 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:16.510 settle that came right from the top. I'll report it. 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:21.430 At the beginning of this year, Mehta hired a new 0:17:21.470 --> 0:17:24.790 chief legal officer named C.J. Mahoney. He used to be 0:17:24.850 --> 0:17:27.970 Microsoft's general counsel and worked in the first Trump administration. 0:17:28.970 --> 0:17:31.399 Days into his new job at Mehta, back in January, 0:17:31.940 --> 0:17:34.399 he called up Attorney General Scrimetti, saying he wanted to 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.160 start discussing a deal. Over the course of the next 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.169 eight months, while Mehta suffered one loss after another in 0:17:40.190 --> 0:17:42.920 the other child safety trials... Mahoney would put up a 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.359 good front publicly in interviews, insisting Mehta was going to 0:17:46.420 --> 0:17:47.020 fight to the end. 0:17:47.340 --> 0:17:49.530 We disagree with these verdicts, respectfully. 0:17:49.970 --> 0:17:51.810 We think that they're vulnerable on appeal, and we're going 0:17:51.830 --> 0:17:53.330 to pursue those appeals aggressively. 0:17:53.990 --> 0:17:56.530 But behind the scenes, he was very eager to strike 0:17:56.570 --> 0:17:59.649 a deal to make the suits go away. Just days 0:17:59.710 --> 0:18:03.300 before the multi-state trial started in Oakland, Mahoney flew to 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.859 Nashville to meet with Attorney General Scarametti and some of 0:18:05.900 --> 0:18:08.800 the other AG's offices. Mehta was prepared to offer a 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.399 significant settlement. Mark Zuckerberg had approved it. But there was 0:18:12.590 --> 0:18:14.690 one condition that was non-negotiable. 0:18:15.369 --> 0:18:16.270 The contingency. 0:18:17.130 --> 0:18:19.850 Mahoney insisted on a structure where Meta would agree to 0:18:19.869 --> 0:18:23.189 a bunch of baseline things. A minimum payment, certain changes 0:18:23.230 --> 0:18:25.780 to its platforms. But the company would agree to do 0:18:25.900 --> 0:18:31.659 more contingent on its competitors also changing their platforms. TikTok, Snapchat, 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.949 and YouTube. Meta didn't want to go down alone. So 0:18:35.990 --> 0:18:39.170 for instance, sure the settlement was for $ 17 billion dollars. 0:18:39.770 --> 0:18:42.300 But Meta only has to pay the full $ 17 billion 0:18:42.690 --> 0:18:45.320 if the other companies settle with the states on similar 0:18:45.340 --> 0:18:48.960 terms as well. Otherwise, Meta only has to pay $ 12 billion. 0:18:49.980 --> 0:18:52.500 Same with some of the app modifications. As of now, 0:18:52.619 --> 0:18:55.020 Meta is limiting Teams to two hours per day on 0:18:55.060 --> 0:18:57.540 its apps. But if all the other companies sign on, 0:18:57.720 --> 0:18:59.320 it's agreed to drop the limit down to one hour. 0:19:00.180 --> 0:19:03.260 Throughout all its negotiations with Scrimeti and the other AGs, 0:19:03.740 --> 0:19:06.790 Meta was dead set on this. Which I found interesting 0:19:06.810 --> 0:19:08.990 to hear, because I'd seen the company focus on the 0:19:09.030 --> 0:19:12.220 same thing in the other trials this year, like in 0:19:12.260 --> 0:19:15.840 New Mexico. In court, Meta's lawyers kept saying, hey, the 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.459 other social media apps are doing the same things. Why 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.200 are you picking on us? They seemed fixated on this. 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:25.640 What does that tell you about Meta, about the industry? 0:19:26.050 --> 0:19:28.369 So I think there are two things driving that. The 0:19:28.390 --> 0:19:33.170 first is pure capitalism. Other industry participants are doing the 0:19:33.230 --> 0:19:36.790 same bad thing. And by moving first, Meta is going 0:19:36.830 --> 0:19:39.389 to lose ground to them competitively. Now they're trying to 0:19:39.490 --> 0:19:42.500 pivot and say, hey, we're the responsible ones who took 0:19:42.540 --> 0:19:45.040 the deal first. And that's the smart thing for them 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:46.909 to do. We expected they would do that. We get 0:19:46.950 --> 0:19:47.590 that they do that. 0:19:47.830 --> 0:19:50.060 Yeah, they're running an ad campaign now to try and 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:54.520 like shame TikTok and YouTube and Snapchat into settling with 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.900 you guys as well. There's a big newspaper print campaign 0:19:57.940 --> 0:20:00.200 Meta's doing, calling on those other companies to strike their 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.690 own deal with the states. Also, Chief Legal Officer C.J. 0:20:03.730 --> 0:20:06.850 Mahoney released this video after the deal was finalized. 0:20:07.890 --> 0:20:09.050 Our new time limit commitments. 0:20:09.540 --> 0:20:12.680 Night mode features, and usage limits during school hours set 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.200 the right path forward for our whole industry. But this 0:20:15.290 --> 0:20:17.800 framework will only work if all our peers join us. 0:20:18.290 --> 0:20:21.449