1
00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,559
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

2
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,600
Speaker 2: Just when you think the Alec Baldwin rust shooting controversy

3
00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:18,280
Speaker 2: is over, it's not. In the last days, Alec Baldwin's

4
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:24,640
Speaker 2: lawsuit against New Mexico prosecutors is dismissed.

5
00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 1: That's right.

6
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 2: Alec Baldwin actually sued prosecutors and others out of Santa Fe.

7
00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,280
Speaker 2: But in the last days a judge saw through Alex

8
00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:41,599
Speaker 2: Baldwin's meritless lawsuit and dismissed the case, claiming, quote, no

9
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,320
Speaker 2: significant action has been taken in one hundred and eighty

10
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,360
Speaker 2: or more days in connection to these claims. After getting

11
00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,760
Speaker 2: his case dropped, that wasn't enough for Alec Baldwin, Baldwin

12
00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,680
Speaker 2: actually filed a lawsuit alleging prosecutors and investigators engaged in

13
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:06,039
Speaker 2: malicious execution, abuse of process, intentional expiliation of evidence, and

14
00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,600
Speaker 2: violation of his civil rights.

15
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:10,800
Speaker 1: WHOA wait a minute.

16
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 2: Helena Hutchins was shot dead and you pull the trigger

17
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,240
Speaker 2: and now you're claiming your rights were violated even though

18
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:19,679
Speaker 2: your case has been dropped.

19
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,720
Speaker 1: I don't get it. What do we know about the case?

20
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 3: Tragedy on the film set of a new Alec Baldwin movie,

21
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,880
Speaker 3: and what police are calling a misfire of a prop

22
00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,559
Speaker 3: gun in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The Sheriff's office there

23
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 3: has just confirmed it was Baldwin who fired the prop

24
00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,119
Speaker 3: gun that killed a forty two year old female director

25
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 3: of stratography, Helena Hutchins. The film's director, Jules Sousa, was

26
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,000
Speaker 3: also hurt. This incident happened on the set of The

27
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 3: Western Rust. Now detectives are investigating what type of projectile

28
00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,680
Speaker 3: discharged from this gun.

29
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,000
Speaker 2: We were just hearing our friend Christine Johnson was CBS

30
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:09,720
Speaker 2: what really happened. According to reports, the assistant yelled out

31
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,960
Speaker 2: cold gun just before the shooting, which means the gun

32
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 2: was safe, that it was loaded with a blank.

33
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 1: So how do we have a.

34
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,960
Speaker 2: Woman, dad, another film person injured with me and all

35
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,519
Speaker 2: Star panel to make sense of it all?

36
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:25,520
Speaker 1: If we can?

37
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,080
Speaker 2: With me? Dominate Romano lawyer joining us out of New

38
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,920
Speaker 2: York at Romano Law dot Com is specialty entertainment law,

39
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 2: and I can tell you somebody's going to need a lawyer.

40
00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 2: Doctor Sherry Schwartz forensic psychologists joining us.

41
00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:40,360
Speaker 1: Karen L.

42
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:45,000
Speaker 2: Smith, forensic expert, host of Shattered Soul's podcast at Beerbonesforensics

43
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,240
Speaker 2: dot Com Paul Zike joining US special guest, former police

44
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:55,200
Speaker 2: commander and author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon,

45
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,760
Speaker 2: and he has lots of experience using firearms with blanks

46
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:06,040
Speaker 2: during live action movie scenes like Terminator Salvation, doctor Michelle

47
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:11,639
Speaker 2: Dupre forensic pathologists, former medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation

48
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 2: Field Guide, and a former police detective. But first to

49
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,680
Speaker 2: Alexis Terreschuk, crime online dot com investigative reporter joining us

50
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,240
Speaker 2: from Hollywood, Alexis is what is getting folded into the.

51
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 1: Story, right or wrong?

52
00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 2: Is Alec Baldwin's history, his reputation for let me just

53
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 2: say hot headedness to put it euphemistically. If he thought

54
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 2: it was a blank and it should have been a blank,

55
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 2: then history aside.

56
00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,080
Speaker 1: It was an accident.

57
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,640
Speaker 2: But how can it really be an accident when somebody

58
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 2: loaded this prop gun with real bullets?

59
00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,680
Speaker 1: You know? Just started at the beginning, they.

60
00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,480
Speaker 4: Were on a set in Santa Fe, New Mexico. It's

61
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,560
Speaker 4: a western style movie. So they were sitting in a

62
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,840
Speaker 4: church at an old church scene, and Alex Baldwin was

63
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,559
Speaker 4: sitting in one of the pewes and he was practicing

64
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 4: what's called a cross draw, and so that would be

65
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,720
Speaker 4: where the person takes your left hand and grabs the

66
00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,760
Speaker 4: gun out of the holster on the opposite hip, pulls

67
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,800
Speaker 4: it across to fire. He was practicing this move standing

68
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,880
Speaker 4: the cinematographer, which is the person that makes the movie beautiful.

69
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 4: This is the person that the director that films the scene.

70
00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,560
Speaker 4: She was standing in front of him, with the assistant

71
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 4: director standing limpid, with the director standing right behind her.

72
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,640
Speaker 4: He was looking over her shoulder to see what it

73
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,640
Speaker 4: would look like when Alex pulled the gun out. He

74
00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 4: pulled it out of the side, points it at her

75
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,039
Speaker 4: to show them, pulls the trigger, and it fires a

76
00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 4: live round into her. Hits her in the stomach and actually,

77
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,840
Speaker 4: believe goes through her and grazes the director sitting standing

78
00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:54,760
Speaker 4: right behind her.

79
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 2: Hush has pronounced dad at an Albuquerque hospital after being

80
00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,479
Speaker 2: rushed to the emergency room.

81
00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:01,400
Speaker 1: You know what, I.

82
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 2: Always love playing nine one one calls for a jury

83
00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 2: because it takes you back to what's really happening. Not

84
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,120
Speaker 2: a description, not someone recounting what happened, but you're hearing

85
00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,240
Speaker 2: what really happened. Take a listen to the beginning of

86
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:17,200
Speaker 2: that nine to one one call.

87
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,400
Speaker 5: We did watch the location of your emergency that we

88
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,320
Speaker 5: need autic bonancas free grants.

89
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,039
Speaker 6: Right now, we've got the people shot on.

90
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:34,360
Speaker 5: You said, someone with shots two people accidental gunshots a

91
00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,640
Speaker 5: movie steps and Grant wondered it often with medical.

92
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:42,480
Speaker 6: Who are you calling?

93
00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 1: Clear the road?

94
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:56,719
Speaker 5: Emergency bonanza, people accidentally shot on a movie?

95
00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,479
Speaker 6: Step live top gun We need out the immediately fanatic

96
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,640
Speaker 6: free Okay, what is your name?

97
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:06,880
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

98
00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:07,480
Speaker 5: Mitchell?

99
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:10,240
Speaker 1: That Michelle?

100
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:11,160
Speaker 5: Where you're calling from?

101
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:12,880
Speaker 7: Five up?

102
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 4: Don't hang up?

103
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:16,679
Speaker 5: Okay, hold on, drink.

104
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:29,919
Speaker 6: One second for somebody else is calling better? Everybody should

105
00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,760
Speaker 6: be can help us? Director in our camera manage woman.

106
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:41,479
Speaker 2: Now you hear repeatedly the word accident accidentally throughout that.

107
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,320
Speaker 1: But is it an accident?

108
00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 2: Very often when you have, for instance, a d UI crash,

109
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,920
Speaker 2: people go, well it was an accident, But was it

110
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 2: because the driver chooses to go to a bar to

111
00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,120
Speaker 2: order drinks, to drink to become legally in tixicated to

112
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,279
Speaker 2: then get the car keys, walk to the car, get

113
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,159
Speaker 2: in the car, crank up, reverse and drive out onto

114
00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:13,280
Speaker 2: the roads. That sounds pretty deliberate. So is it an accident?

115
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,440
Speaker 2: Is it gross negligence? Well, take a listen to more

116
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 2: of that nine to one one call.

117
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,640
Speaker 8: So was it loaded with a real.

118
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,000
Speaker 5: Bullet or I cannot tell you that.

119
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,080
Speaker 6: Okay, we have two injuries from the movie. Gun suh.

120
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,400
Speaker 6: We're getting out there already.

121
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:29,680
Speaker 9: Just down upon.

122
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 6: Okay, I good see that yelled at me at lunch

123
00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 6: because out about me vision can and yell at me.

124
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,200
Speaker 6: He's a subtested gun to be responsible to.

125
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,760
Speaker 5: Answer how many no? No, no, I'm super hard injury.

126
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:52,680
Speaker 10: True.

127
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,480
Speaker 5: I was that, I know I was.

128
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,120
Speaker 6: We were hurting and it went off and I ran out.

129
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:02,080
Speaker 6: We all ran out. They were being in the camera

130
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,320
Speaker 6: woman and the director and the directors were claring the

131
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 6: road to come back. We're back on the web. We're

132
00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 6: back in the town I called. We're back in the

133
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 6: western town.

134
00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 5: Is there any serious leadings? I don't know.

135
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:18,240
Speaker 6: I ran out of the building.

136
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 5: But when Brian and I still have to go through these, Okay,

137
00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 5: are they completely alert on the question?

138
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:37,679
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, believe it or not.

139
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:43,440
Speaker 2: Even after Alec Baldwin's case was dropped, it's over, he

140
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 2: sues the prosecutors and investigators, claiming his rights were violated.

141
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:56,840
Speaker 2: Does anybody remember the beautiful Young Mom? Senhematographer Helena Hutchins dead,

142
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 2: shot dead. Alec Baldwin pulled the trigger. The accident or negligence,

143
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,120
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. He pulled the trigger and now he

144
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 2: is claiming his rights were violated and sues. Look, I've

145
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,000
Speaker 2: never believed Alec Baldwn intentionally shot Helena Hutchins.

146
00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:20,920
Speaker 1: I think it was an accident.

147
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,959
Speaker 2: I think he thought there were prop bullets in the gun,

148
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:30,040
Speaker 2: but he pointed the gun and pulled the trigger. Negligent, accident.

149
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:36,440
Speaker 2: She's still dead. That said, his case was dropped, it's over.

150
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,240
Speaker 2: But yet he goes so far as to sue the

151
00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:44,760
Speaker 2: prosecutors and investigators that they were all out to get him. Reminder,

152
00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,560
Speaker 2: this young mom is dead and you're suing because you

153
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,479
Speaker 2: think your rights were violated.

154
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:52,960
Speaker 1: Oh my stars.

155
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,720
Speaker 2: Back to the facts of the case, paul'sake, Thank you

156
00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,840
Speaker 2: for being with us. What went Obviously there was a

157
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,320
Speaker 2: live bullet and what should have been a prop gun.

158
00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:09,800
Speaker 10: But what happened, Nancy. The only explanation for this is

159
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,240
Speaker 10: a systemic breakdown in systems that are in place to

160
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,680
Speaker 10: ensure that live ammunition is not present on the set.

161
00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,520
Speaker 2: Okay, now that was a lot of words. Paul's I

162
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 2: think you're saying somebody didn't do their job.

163
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:29,120
Speaker 10: Well, absolutely, somebody did not do their job and catastrophically

164
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,680
Speaker 10: did not do that. There's no reason whatsoever for live

165
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 10: ammunition to be on the set of any set. Because

166
00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,880
Speaker 10: these weapons are capable of firing live rounds. They're not

167
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 10: really prop guns. They're deadly weapons being used as props.

168
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 2: Okay, hold on, right there, I want to make that distinction.

169
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:50,600
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. When look, I'm a trial lawyer, I'm

170
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:51,640
Speaker 2: a legal expert.

171
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 1: You're the expert in this world. When I say prop.

172
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,080
Speaker 2: Gun, I mean they're using it as a prop. But

173
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,760
Speaker 2: you're making a very fine, subtle, but important distinction. A

174
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,440
Speaker 2: prompt gun is a fake gun. I don't think it

175
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 2: even can shoot, Is that right?

176
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 1: Exactly?

177
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,800
Speaker 10: If you're talking about say it pop nice, correct, it

178
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 10: has a flat edge on it, It's incapable of cutting you.

179
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 10: These are things that are not deemed to be dangerous.

180
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,720
Speaker 10: A prop gun is simply as utilized on set. Our

181
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 10: weapons that are capable of firing live ammunition, and therefore

182
00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 10: accidentally live ammunition could be mixed with blank rounds. You know,

183
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,480
Speaker 10: given time, this is just a disaster waiting to happen.

184
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,439
Speaker 10: They need to move to true guns that are incapable

185
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,840
Speaker 10: of chambering live ammunition. Until that happens, this has a

186
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,760
Speaker 10: very strong chance of repeating itself.

187
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,440
Speaker 1: Well, okay, tell me this. Paul's II. Guys with me.

188
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:51,479
Speaker 1: Paul's I.

189
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:56,040
Speaker 2: He is a former police commander, He's an author screen

190
00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:01,040
Speaker 2: actors gil and has experience using blanks during live action

191
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,959
Speaker 2: movie scenes where we all think they're shooting real guns.

192
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 2: If you suspend your disbelief in movies like his Terminator Salvation,

193
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,840
Speaker 2: those aren't real guns. So why are they using a

194
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,520
Speaker 2: real gun? To start with? Paul zike Ada mean to me,

195
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,320
Speaker 2: having been forced to handle so many guns and so

196
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 2: many homicides, what moron wouldn't make sure that there were

197
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:26,920
Speaker 2: blanks in the gun.

198
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,080
Speaker 10: It's hard to imagine that during the loading of the

199
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,719
Speaker 10: weapon that that was not viewed very strictly as a

200
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,760
Speaker 10: weapon is loaded. And also there's a chain of custody

201
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,360
Speaker 10: issue here on the scene of Terminator Salvation. As we

202
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,440
Speaker 10: would go out and we would conduct the battle scene,

203
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,160
Speaker 10: if you will, in the middle of the night, we

204
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,360
Speaker 10: would be handed directly from the armor, fully automatic weapons

205
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,720
Speaker 10: and magazines fully loaded with blanks, and we would head

206
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,679
Speaker 10: straight out to where these scene was to be shot,

207
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,600
Speaker 10: and then we would engage in the seen you know,

208
00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,520
Speaker 10: five ten minutes later, and the weapon straight back to

209
00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,719
Speaker 10: the armor, all the ammunition back to the armor, all

210
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,000
Speaker 10: the magazine back to the armor, and we would not

211
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 10: be able to touch those weapons again until the next scene.

212
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,040
Speaker 10: So from a chaine of custody standpoint, I went directly

213
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,520
Speaker 10: from the armor directly to my hand, my you know,

214
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 10: the co actor's hands that were with me, and that

215
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:24,640
Speaker 10: was maintained very strictly.

216
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,440
Speaker 2: Hold On, Paul, I've got to soak in everything you're saying,

217
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 2: because Dominic Romano a high profile lawyer joining us out

218
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,200
Speaker 2: of New York's specialty entertainment law.

219
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,319
Speaker 1: And that's why Dominic's joining us today. Dominick, hold On, when.

220
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 2: You heard Paul's like say, chain of custody, I immediately

221
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,240
Speaker 2: thought of a serial murderer that I prosecuted.

222
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,280
Speaker 1: On one murder.

223
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 2: We could get them on one and there ended up

224
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 2: I would say, three weeks before trial. I was just

225
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,840
Speaker 2: looking at the evidence and I noticed that the bag

226
00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,319
Speaker 2: that contained the evidence wasn't signed. It had never been

227
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,559
Speaker 2: signed by the homicide cop that picked it up from

228
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,319
Speaker 2: it was DNA in there was blood from where it

229
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,719
Speaker 2: had been taken and carried to the crime lab. It

230
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 2: wasn't written on the back. Did anybody tamper with it? No,

231
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,560
Speaker 2: he just didn't put his initials. I'm like, oh, dear

232
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,719
Speaker 2: Lord in Heaven, the chain is broken. This could be

233
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 2: attacked at trial. I had to go back out to

234
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 2: the jail, stand there and look at this killer while

235
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,120
Speaker 2: he pulled his blood again. Then I carried it with

236
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 2: my investigator myself back to the crime lab to have

237
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:32,840
Speaker 2: it retested.

238
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,400
Speaker 1: Praise the Lord in Heaven. It was his DNA.

239
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,400
Speaker 2: Long story short, that's chain of custody. Your case can

240
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 2: be lost. You can lose a serial killer because somebody

241
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,960
Speaker 2: didn't keep the chain to preserve the integrity of the trial.

242
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 2: That's what I thought when Paul Zike said chain of custody.

243
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,840
Speaker 2: But did you also hear him say dominic remino he

244
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,000
Speaker 2: handed it back to the It sounded like he was

245
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,080
Speaker 2: saying armor or armory.

246
00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:59,840
Speaker 1: But I've been reading about this case.

247
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 2: An arm er, armor er, who is the person in

248
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,640
Speaker 2: charge of all the weapons, And I think.

249
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,440
Speaker 7: Paul is absolutely right. Look, no one should ever be

250
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,760
Speaker 7: killed by a gun on a film set period. Those

251
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 7: are the words of Brandon Lee's sister Brandon Lee shot

252
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,000
Speaker 7: on a film set in the early nineteen nineties. This

253
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 7: should not happen. There are established protocols, chains of command.

254
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 7: I mean, there appears to be some serious gross negligence

255
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,760
Speaker 7: on that set to allow that to have that. That

256
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 7: is the appearance, And I don't know what evidence can

257
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,160
Speaker 7: come out to rebut that presumption.

258
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 2: A live round in well, as Paul's ike has corrected me,

259
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 2: it's not a prop gun.

260
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,360
Speaker 1: They were using real guns.

261
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,000
Speaker 2: Hey, let me ask you a question, Paul z Iike,

262
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 2: explain the difference and what a blank looks like as

263
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 2: opposed to a live round a bullet And we're saying

264
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,280
Speaker 2: live rounds, we're talking about a bullet.

265
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 1: What's the difference. Can't you just look at them and

266
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 1: you can see the difference.

267
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,280
Speaker 10: In most cases, absolutely, it's very clear. You can see

268
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,680
Speaker 10: the difference. In some types of calibers, say two two three,

269
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 10: if you will, that's sort an AR fifteen would shoot.

270
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 10: The blanks are kind of crimped at the end to

271
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,080
Speaker 10: almost look like there's a bullet on the end of them.

272
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,720
Speaker 10: But any sort of trained professional whatsoever, when you're handling

273
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,800
Speaker 10: a blank, you know it's a blank. When it's a bullet,

274
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,040
Speaker 10: you know it's a bullet. The blank does not have

275
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 10: a lead projectile or a steel projectile at the end

276
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,720
Speaker 10: of the round. So at the end it's either flat

277
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 10: or it's slightly crimped to hold in the gunpowder, which

278
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,360
Speaker 10: you know, the firearm usually needs the gunpowder to correctly

279
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,280
Speaker 10: function the weapon and cycle the weapon. And that's one

280
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 10: of the reasons why blanks are used.

281
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,520
Speaker 2: Okay, Paul's I really respect you, but you're going to

282
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 2: have to dumb me down for me, okay, because I

283
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 2: would have to put you through intensive training before you

284
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 2: took the stand because a lot of people do not

285
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,919
Speaker 2: know what you just said. Just think about it and

286
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,879
Speaker 2: think you there's a way you can say it in

287
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,040
Speaker 2: more simple terms. What's the difference between a blank and

288
00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,119
Speaker 2: a lie bullet when you look at it? Speak English

289
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 2: Man in the meantime, Wait a minute, you mentioned Brandon Lee,

290
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 2: and you're absolutely right. We pulled sound of other cases

291
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,080
Speaker 2: almost identical to this. This is not the first time

292
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,880
Speaker 2: it's happened, Believe it or not, Tyler, could you roll

293
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 2: our cut forty four? Let's follow up on what Paul

294
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 2: Zike said about Brandon Lee.

295
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,120
Speaker 11: That's a bully comes found that killed Brandon Lee. Some

296
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,080
Speaker 11: believe a piece of a proply without gunpowder and it

297
00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,000
Speaker 11: may have been left accidentally in the gun.

298
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,000
Speaker 1: The blank was fired at Brandon.

299
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,240
Speaker 11: Some feel let's shot out the properly, mortally wounding him.

300
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:50,880
Speaker 8: It was an actioning way to happen.

301
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,680
Speaker 11: The Crow crewmember we spoke with says that there were

302
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,919
Speaker 11: many opportunities for an accident to happen. Are the working

303
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,600
Speaker 11: conditions on the set of The Crow particularly bad? Threely

304
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,560
Speaker 11: long hours, eighteen hour days back to back at times,

305
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 11: pushing ninety one hundred hours.

306
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 5: A week and six day weeks way too much.

307
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 11: Do you think that that over work, that exhaustion might

308
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:15,479
Speaker 11: have resulted in this accident?

309
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:16,920
Speaker 1: Stage your conscious.

310
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,240
Speaker 7: Olive them were definitely not call.

311
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,200
Speaker 5: It could have been prevented.

312
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:22,960
Speaker 1: With better management.

313
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 11: The publicist for the movie The Crow denies that the

314
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 11: working conditions were insane.

315
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 12: Certainly, everyone was very tired and exhausted from the shoe,

316
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,200
Speaker 12: but these are professionals and they're used to working conditions

317
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:33,479
Speaker 12: like this.

318
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,440
Speaker 2: Okay, guys, you were hearing our friends and Inside Edition,

319
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,359
Speaker 2: and I want to follow up on what we're just

320
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 2: hearing with Alexis Tereschuk. I played that sound for a reason, Alexis,

321
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:48,159
Speaker 2: because on the Alec Baldwin set of Rust, there apparently

322
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,640
Speaker 2: were problems with working conditions. A group of the crew

323
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,480
Speaker 2: had walked out I think the night before the claiming

324
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,640
Speaker 2: that they had bad hotels. They were an hour away

325
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,680
Speaker 2: from a hotel or motel and if they work late

326
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 2: into the night, they have to drive through I guess

327
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 2: the desert and a lot of them were actually sleeping

328
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 2: in their cars overnight. That's just some of the complaints

329
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:12,560
Speaker 2: I've heard.

330
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 1: But what are the other.

331
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,640
Speaker 2: Complaints, if any, on the Alec Baldwin movie set.

332
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 4: Well, there have been complaints that things were not safe quote.

333
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,879
Speaker 4: But one of the person is being directly blamed for

334
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 4: a lot of the unfaked is when you were listening

335
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 4: to the nine one one call and you said you

336
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,680
Speaker 4: heard the woman saying that he was yelling at me

337
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 4: things like that. This is the assistant director that they're

338
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,640
Speaker 4: talking about. And this is the assistant director, David Halls,

339
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 4: who handed the gun to Baldwin and said this is

340
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 4: a cold gun. So what the people on the set

341
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 4: were saying is that Halls was not a responsble person.

342
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 4: He was very angry.

343
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 9: He was making the job very difficult for everybody to do, and.

344
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 4: They didn't trust him.

345
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,879
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, you're saying David Halls was an assistant director. Yeah, okay,

346
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 2: Well what about the honor? Is she the one responsible

347
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 2: for all the weapons and the blanks or the bullets? Guys,

348
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,880
Speaker 2: take another Listen to our cut forty three.

349
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 1: This is about practically the same thing happening before. Listen.

350
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 11: It was here at the Carrol Coast Studios in Wilmington,

351
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 11: North Carolina that actor Brandon Lee was filming The Crow.

352
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 1: Ironically, the film.

353
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,919
Speaker 11: Is about a man who dies and comes back to

354
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 11: life to avenge his death. Shortly after midnight last Tuesday,

355
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 11: Brandon Lee was preparing to film a routine action scene

356
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 11: in the script for him to get shot as he

357
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 11: walks through door carrying a bag of groceries. Michael Massey,

358
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 11: the actor doing the shooting, is reportedly devastated by Lee's

359
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 11: death and remains in seclusion. The Gunny was using was

360
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 11: supposed to be loaded with blanks from the camera's rule.

361
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,120
Speaker 13: Brandon Lee was performing for the last time.

362
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 2: The first episodes of a reality show starring Alec Baldwin,

363
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 2: his wife and their seven children are hitting the airwaves now.

364
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 2: According to a string of PR specialists, no one can

365
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 2: imagine any advisor would have recommended the ball once agree

366
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 2: to a reality series in the very best of times,

367
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: let alone after the shooting death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins.

368
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:23,720
Speaker 1: Why are you and Karen Smith?

369
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 13: Well, we deal a lot with forensics in physics. When

370
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 13: we do a reconstruction, we use snippets of time and

371
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 13: sometimes that can be split seconds, and this includes trajectories

372
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 13: of projectiles, and this trajectory can generally be explained by

373
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 13: the reporting. Alec Baldwin was reported to be sitting at

374
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 13: a church pew to align a camera angle when the

375
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 13: gun was fired. Alena Hutchins then collapsed on the floor

376
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 13: and Joel's Susa was struck in the clavicles. That's an

377
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 13: upward trajectory, which means both Hutchins and Susa were standing

378
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 13: up when the event occurred. The projectile that perporated Helena's

379
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 13: body and subsequently struck Joel.

380
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 1: In order for that to.

381
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 13: Happen, the kinetic energy, which is energy as the result

382
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 13: of motion, would be very high. We're dealing with mass,

383
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 13: or the amount of matter in an object and energy

384
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 13: dispersion guns carry a high volume of energy in a

385
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 13: small space, and that from my experience, it tells me

386
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 13: that it was something other than just the paper or

387
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 13: elastic wadding from a blank round. That needs to be

388
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 13: confirmed by the EMMY and the investigators. But there are

389
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 13: reports of live ammunition bullets being on the set and

390
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 13: that particular gun allegedly being used for target practice that morning.

391
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 13: There's a lot of questions that needs to be answered

392
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 13: by the investigators and theme.

393
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: Again for the set being used as target practice. Paul Zeike,

394
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 2: that shouldn't be that you've got crew members out shooting bottles.

395
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 2: I think that that's coming out with live bullets and

396
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 2: use that same gun for a sane and a church

397
00:22:59,359 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: full of people.

398
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 10: And Nancy, I just want to clarify the prior point,

399
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 10: so very simply, a blank is a shellcasing with gunpowder

400
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 10: in it with no bullet. A bullet is the same

401
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 10: exact thing with more gunpowder and a live bullet at

402
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 10: the end of it that is made to travel through

403
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 10: the barrel and exit the weapon. But back to what

404
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 10: you were saying at the Cardinal rule, it's been broken.

405
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 10: Whether you're whether you're involved in police training, or you're

406
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 10: involved in a movie set, keeping live ammunition away from

407
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 10: weapons that fire live ammunition and keeping weapons at fire

408
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 10: blanks away from those instances. And when you mix those

409
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 10: two together, the odds of somebody having a spare live

410
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 10: round in one of their pockets or you name it

411
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 10: is super high, and it sounds very sloppy, and it

412
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 10: just just opens the door for terrible things to happen.

413
00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 10: And that's where the systemic breakdown and that controlled environment.

414
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you, Paul's like, you're right. Super sloppy

415
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: is one way to put it. Gross negligence or unintentional

416
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 2: murder is another.

417
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: Way to put it. I think I hear dominant Ramano

418
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: jumping in go ahead.

419
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,719
Speaker 7: Yeah. Basically it's a catastrophic miscalculation. I think two people

420
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 7: here should be folks. We should focus on one is

421
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 7: the armor like this is only according to reports, her

422
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 7: second movie with jars Read and the assistant director Dave

423
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 7: Hauls you mentioned before. According to reports, he was fired

424
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 7: from a twenty nineteen production of Freedom's Past I first

425
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 7: time for a minor injury.

426
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: WHOA why why white white?

427
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: You got me drinking from the fire hydrant, which is

428
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: not a bad thing. It's too much at once. Hold on,

429
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 2: in the world, would you have somebody that was fired

430
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 2: off another similar job handling your weapon?

431
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: Okay? Is that what you just said, dominic?

432
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 10: Okay?

433
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 7: Almost?

434
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 13: So almost.

435
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 7: The armorer is twenty four years old. The person handling

436
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 7: the weapons, it's only her film. She was just in

437
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 7: a podcast last month where she said, you know, she's

438
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 7: a bit nervous about her film, but it went well

439
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 7: her while there is apparently a famous armor okay, so

440
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 7: we have that an experienced armor number two, we have

441
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 7: the assistant director, one of the ad DP holes. Apparently,

442
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 7: according to a report, he was fired from its twenty

443
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 7: nineteen production. The movie was freedom passed after crew members

444
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 7: suffered guess what a minor injury when a gun unexpectedly.

445
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: Discharged dominate romano.

446
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: The words similar transactions are jumping to mind. I mean,

447
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: this solidifies my thought that this is not an accident,

448
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: because an accident is when you totally don't see it coming.

449
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: It's just like out of the blue.

450
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 2: But if this guy, if it's correct, the ad had

451
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: a previous incident, for somebody was shot on a set.

452
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: Even if it was a minor injury, then you should

453
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: have seen you either new or should have known. Would

454
00:25:58,760 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: you agree with that dominant?

455
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 7: They're going to be some serious questions to be asked,

456
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 7: and there have to be answers, And if we don't

457
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 7: have good answers, someone is either going to be involved

458
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 7: in a very expensive lawsuit or depending on what they

459
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 7: knew and when they knew it and how careless they were,

460
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 7: probably facing some time. The other issue you alluded to

461
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 7: earlier is, you know, cost cutting, it's rampant in the

462
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 7: industry right now, and the production company's decision not to

463
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 7: book the crew hotel rooms near the actual set, but

464
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 7: to have them travel an hour in each direction to

465
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 7: get to and from their accommodation, to have long hours

466
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 7: where people walked off the set earlier that day in protest.

467
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 7: So this is a combination of what turned out to

468
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 7: be a lethal combination at catastrophic calculation on the part

469
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 7: of the production government.

470
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: Well, you just said a mouthful in a.

471
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 2: Good way, between the armorer being an experience, the ad

472
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: having a prior similar transaction, and budget cuts problems amongst

473
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: the crew. Take a listen to our cut six that

474
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: from our friends at News Nation.

475
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 12: Now let's start with the people responsible for handling a gun.

476
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 12: There are no ubiquitous rules across all film sets, but

477
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 12: generally there are some guidelines that they follow and here

478
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 12: into a budget.

479
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: Budget usually plays a big role.

480
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 12: In many sets, there are no fewer than three people

481
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 12: responsible for monitoring a weapon. Prop Mastercums in charge of

482
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 12: all crosts, is often supported by a safety officer and

483
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 12: a sub coordinator, and depending on the seat, you may

484
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 12: also need to bring in an armorer whose only job

485
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 12: is handling weapons.

486
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

487
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 2: In the Last Days, the lawsuit filed by Alec Baldwin

488
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: TV movie Superstar against New Mexico prosecutors.

489
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: Has been dismissed.

490
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 2: How did this whole case start anyway, doctor Dupree. I'm

491
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,239
Speaker 2: sure you, like myself, have had to handle weapons in

492
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: front of jury's and I learned this from watching a

493
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: pro try cases. I would always pick the gun up,

494
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 2: holding it face down with a barrel pointing to the ground,

495
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: so the jury or anyone else would.

496
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: Not be alarmed.

497
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: What you don't want to do is scare your jury.

498
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: I would walk in front of the jury holding the

499
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: weapon nose down, open the chamber, let them see me

500
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: check it, hold it up like I was examining it

501
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: through you know, at my eye level, so they could

502
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: see that it was empty and then shut it and

503
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: then give it to the witness without fail. Even if

504
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: it was a weapon that I knew was inoperable, that

505
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: was sp Why would that not occur on a movie set?

506
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: But describe how you're supposed to handle weapons exactly.

507
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 9: Ancy, You described it perfectly. That is exactly what you

508
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 9: should do. And if you're giving a weapon to someone else,

509
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 9: normally you have the chamber open so that they can

510
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 9: also see and then you both check it and know

511
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,719
Speaker 9: that it's empty or that the blanks are in it.

512
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: Tell me what you can discern about what Karen Smith,

513
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: forensics expert, just told us about the injuries.

514
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: What happened, Nancy.

515
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 8: Even though these are quote prop guns or blanks, they

516
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 8: can still obviously do devastating damage the wadding or whatever

517
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 8: they are filled with, even in a blank. But this

518
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 8: was not a blink. This was an actual projectile.

519
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: And as we know, you mean a bullet speak English,

520
00:29:58,520 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: a bullet.

521
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 9: Yes, yes, this is a bullet, and the.

522
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 8: Caliber of that bullet of the gun is what is

523
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 8: going to determine how much damage is done. As She explained,

524
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 8: the higher the caliber, the more energy in that bullet,

525
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 8: and so the more damage done to the physical body.

526
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 8: And of course the location where that bullet enters the

527
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 8: body in this case was devastating.

528
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 1: You know, another issue to doctor Sherry Schwartz.

529
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: I've been on a lot of TV sets, obviously, and

530
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 2: movie sets for you know, cameos or some legal issue.

531
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: And I got to tell you, doctor Sherry Schwartz, a

532
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: movie set takes on a whole It's like you're in

533
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: a different world. Like when you go to the movies

534
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: and you sit down and it goes dark, your mind

535
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: takes you there when you're on a movie set. I've

536
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 2: never been on a single movie set that went on time.

537
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: You go till one or two o'clock in the morning,

538
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: it's pitch dark outside. You keep going until you get

539
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: the shot or you finish this scene, or whatever it's

540
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: called in movie world.

541
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: I think that there is a suspended.

542
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: Fear you think you're at a movie set, like when

543
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: you go to Disneyland or when you're on vacation on

544
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: a cruise ship. You suspend your normal thinking it doesn't

545
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: seem real and you're not thinking, wow, there's a gun

546
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: I could get shot because it's quote just a movie,

547
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 2: it's not real. How do we let me just say,

548
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: suspend our disbelief, suspend rational rules of functioning when you're

549
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: on a movie set or in a movie, you know,

550
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: like in movies where there's some nut with a gun

551
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: and you hear a sound, but you don't think it's

552
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: real because you're in a movie.

553
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: What happens in the human mind, doctor Sherry, Well, when you.

554
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 14: Don't think that something is actually real, then you would

555
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 14: not calculate accurately what the potential risk are, right, And

556
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 14: so there is this gun on the set, but everybody thinks, oh,

557
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 14: it's just make believe. We're setting this up to film it.

558
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 14: Nobody's actually going.

559
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 8: To get hurt. And so what happens mentally is.

560
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 14: That you underestimate what the potential risks are. And what

561
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 14: happened here is an egregious underestimation, right, So for the

562
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 14: rest of us, that's to make believes maybe even for

563
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 14: the actor they know that they're just playing a role,

564
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 14: and everybody around them might know they're playing a role.

565
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 14: But there are people on the set who are responsible

566
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 14: for that gun and for taking that proper care and

567
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 14: knowing what the potential risks are?

568
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: Hey, do you Alexis treshat Crime online dot Com investigative reporter,

569
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: you have heard Dominant Romano Paul's like, well, everyone on

570
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: the panel weighing in. But apparently there were a lot

571
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: of problems and a lot of disgruntled crew members. I

572
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: understand that one of the motels they had set them

573
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: up to stay overnight was at for the homeless and

574
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: there were drug addicts there.

575
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: They were afraid to stay there. What was going on

576
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: on the set, Well.

577
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 13: It seems like what they were trying to do was

578
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 13: make this.

579
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 4: Film as cheaply as possible. Understandable, but they were putting

580
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 4: people's lives at risk. It was fifty hotels were fifty

581
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 4: miles away, so after working fourteen hour days, the crew

582
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 4: was having to drive over an hour to get to

583
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 4: their hotel. Then they would have to be back within

584
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 4: like six hours, so they would get almost no sleep

585
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 4: at all.

586
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: But they were also saying that things.

587
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 8: Were just not safe.

588
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 4: There had been an incident a few days earlier that

589
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 4: one of the prop guns again prop done real gun,

590
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 4: had been accidentally fired, and so the crew had been

591
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 4: complaining to the producer saying this is not a safe

592
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 4: working environment, and they walked off the set. And so

593
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 4: Hollywood is very much a union business, but the producers

594
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 4: hired non union people to replace these nine union people.

595
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 4: That are not the people. That's not the armor, and

596
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 4: it's not the assistant director. And everybody's been talking there

597
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 4: at the line of protocol. You have so many steps

598
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 4: in the line of defense, so that when this gun

599
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 4: got to Alex Baldwin, at least two other people were

600
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 4: responsible for saying that it wasn't loaded.

601
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: I mean, didn't somebody even scream out cold gun. I

602
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: mean they have to yell it out, you know what

603
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: you were just saying. I know so many times for

604
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: different shoots. I don't know who he is that carries

605
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: that comes over and they have to do it a

606
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: certain way. They have to say a certain thing, and

607
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: they say it really loudly.

608
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but I'm.

609
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: Sure there's a reason for it, just like they would

610
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 2: yell out cold gun and.

611
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: Everybody would hear it.

612
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: But I guess they yelled it out without checking alexis

613
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: And there are reports that.

614
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 4: Yes, so there were three guns that were set up

615
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 4: and they were put on a table out the church set.

616
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 4: And this is because of COVID nineteen protocols, so not

617
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 4: a lot of people are in the if it's an

618
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 4: enclosed set, they're not there three guns. So the assistant

619
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 4: director picked it up. Dave Halls as the other guy said,

620
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 4: you know, has a history of a lot of accidents

621
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 4: on sets, and handed it to volvement and he is

622
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 4: the one that yelled out, cold gun. There's no nobody

623
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 4: has said there's so many people have spoken to the

624
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 4: police on the set, so many of the other crew members,

625
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 4: and they said they didn't know whether it actually was

626
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 4: empty or not. And these guns were used at lunch.

627
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 4: This is a post lunch break, so they broke for

628
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 4: lunch at twelve thirty. They come back after lunch. During

629
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 4: that lunchtime, there are reports that those crew members were

630
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 4: using this gun and other guns to shoot beer bottles

631
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 4: out in the desert area and using it as target practice.

632
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 4: So there could have been alive and there said there

633
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 4: were lots of live ammunition. Nobody was told they couldn't

634
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 4: bring live ammunition on sets.

635
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: That's an o thing that you live around on set.

636
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 4: That's a big problem here.

637
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 10: And I think, yeah, I'd like to jump in there.

638
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 10: It's it's it's simply a breakdown of the security of

639
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 10: the scene. The only people there that our arms should

640
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 10: be security personnel. And you know, in my years, my

641
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 10: decade of fighting to keep workplaces safe and to stop

642
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 10: stalking offenders from killing victims, I can tell you one thing,

643
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 10: and that is nobody thinks the unthinkable is going to happen.

644
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 10: It's a matter of just human thinking. They think that, well,

645
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 10: that happened to somebody else, that didn't happen to me.

646
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 10: And because this is somewhat of a rare occurrence on

647
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 10: a set, people got laxed, they got lacka days hole

648
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 10: about fundamental when it comes to shooting a scene such

649
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 10: as this. And just like at any workplace, this is

650
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 10: a workplace out in the middle of the desert, just

651
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 10: like it would be in an office building. Those protocols

652
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 10: broke down and people at work thing to do the

653
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 10: right thing for the right reasons, had a catastrophic, devastating

654
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 10: thing happen, because we as human beings think, well, if

655
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 10: it hasn't happened, it won't happen. And that's just not

656
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 10: the reality of life when it comes with dangerous events.

657
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: You know, Alec Baldwin is a great, great actor. A

658
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: lot of people don't like him because he rubs him

659
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: the wrong way with his jokes, with his actions with

660
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: you know, just a history of comments and behavior that

661
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: irritates some people. But I can tell you this, when

662
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: I saw the photos of him literally doubled over in grief, I.

663
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: Don't think that was acting. I think that was real.

664
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: There's one thing I know about this case. When you

665
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: think it's over, it rises up again. It seemingly won't

666
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 2: go away. What will Alec Baldwin do next? If you're

667
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: listening like Baldwin, don't kick a gift horse in the mouth,

668
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: take the dismissal and run and.

669
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: Never go back. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend,