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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Small business generates more jobs than large businesses. I think

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Speaker 2: that's a surprise to a lot of people, but small

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Speaker 2: businesses have generated over ten million jobs over the last decade,

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Speaker 2: where large businesses have generated about eight million. So it's

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Speaker 2: the backbone of what makes America special.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic.

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Speaker 3: Stories from the frontiers of marketing. Today, we have stories

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Speaker 3: from a serial entrepreneur. He's quoted as saying I'm a

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Speaker 3: lifelong employer, never an employee. He's had a special affinity

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Speaker 3: for opening up possibilities for small and medium sized businesses.

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Speaker 3: He's the founder and CEO of Innovation Refunds. He's Howard Mockler.

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Speaker 3: He was early in esports in the early two thousands

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Speaker 3: and later made it possible for everyday investors to invest

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Speaker 3: in real estate. He's made the tour growing up up

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Speaker 3: in Connecticut, starting his career in la and now Miami.

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Speaker 3: He's been a professor at Wharton's School of Executive Education,

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Speaker 3: and he has a long history of helping others through

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Speaker 3: his strong charitable endeavors. And with all that, he still

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Speaker 3: maintains the passion and energy of a startup entrepreneur.

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Speaker 2: Howard, Welcome, Thank you, Bob. It's a really pleasure to

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Speaker 2: be here with you.

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Speaker 3: Before we jump in, Howard, I want to get you

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Speaker 3: in sixty seconds.

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Speaker 2: You ready, I'm ready?

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Speaker 3: Cats or dogs, Dogs, winter or summer, Summer, salty or

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Speaker 3: sweet Sweet real estate or East Sports real Estate, Early Riser,

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Speaker 3: A night out, Early Riser, California or Florida, Florida. Rock

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Speaker 3: and Roller, country, rock and roll. All time favorite musical

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Speaker 3: artist Elton John smartest person you.

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Speaker 2: Know, my father.

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Speaker 3: Favorite place to visit, Beijing, secret talent.

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Speaker 2: My staff would say, I'm a magician. So I'm going

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Speaker 2: to say a magician.

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Speaker 3: And fine, what did you want to be when you

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Speaker 3: were growing up?

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Speaker 2: A business owner?

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's jump in. You have a Steve job story

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Speaker 3: from before Steve Jobs was really Steve Jobs. But it

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Speaker 3: tells you something about why he was as successful as

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Speaker 3: he was. Can you tell us that story?

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Speaker 2: So I was about thirteen when I started my first

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Speaker 2: company and also acquired my first Apple two computer. It

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Speaker 2: was one of the very first Apple twos that was produced,

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Speaker 2: and when I turned it on, every TV in the

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Speaker 2: house went Haywire. There was no RF shielding in the computer.

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Speaker 2: It was very early days of personal computing, and so

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Speaker 2: I was living at the time with my father in

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Speaker 2: Menlo Park, which is down the street from Palo Alto,

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Speaker 2: where Apple is based. I picked up the phone and

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Speaker 2: I called Apple's headquarters and asked to talk to Steve Jobs.

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Speaker 2: The very nice receptionist told me that he was tied up,

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Speaker 2: and I offered to call back, which I did. She

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Speaker 2: put me through and Steve immediately diagnosed what the problem was,

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Speaker 2: and once you determined it was a unshielded computer case,

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Speaker 2: he dispatched a technician to my house in Menlo Park

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Speaker 2: to swap out the computer.

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Speaker 3: You always want to be a business person, You were

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Speaker 3: always thinking about business. How did that experience shape your

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Speaker 3: view of customers and customer service?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really am crazy about customer service. We

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Speaker 2: have ninety nine percent five star reviews, and it really

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Speaker 2: did shape my opinion. My cell phone can be found

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Speaker 2: on the internet. I don't hide. People can find me

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Speaker 2: and do and I actually enjoy it when they track

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Speaker 2: me down. But customer service really is about responding to

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Speaker 2: the customer, making sure that you take care of their needs,

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Speaker 2: understanding what went wrong, not making excuses and trying to

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Speaker 2: cover up for things, but really being transparent, honest and

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Speaker 2: directly addressing whatever the circumstance is. I think we've all

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Speaker 2: been really frustrated with poor customer service, and when you

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Speaker 2: have exceptional customer service, it really tends to stand out.

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Speaker 3: You have a history of spotting and opening in the

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Speaker 3: market or a need and serving that need. You have

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Speaker 3: an overriding philosophy about providing services to small and medium

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Speaker 3: sized businesses, giving them sort of the advantages, if you will,

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Speaker 3: of scale, access and experience. Can you talk just a

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Speaker 3: little bit about that.

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Speaker 2: What that overview is small and medium businesses are the

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Speaker 2: backbone of America. And I know we say that, we've

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Speaker 2: heard that, but what does it mean. It means that

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Speaker 2: small business generates more jobs than large businesses. I think

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Speaker 2: that's a surprise to a lot of people, But small

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Speaker 2: businesses have generated over ten million jobs over the last decade,

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Speaker 2: where large businesses have generated about eight million. It's the

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Speaker 2: backbone of what makes America special, and unfortunately small businesses

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Speaker 2: don't get the kind of service that they need. You

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Speaker 2: have a lot of folks that have the entrepreneurial spirit,

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Speaker 2: but they just don't have the training and backing to

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Speaker 2: really understand, whether it be finances, accounting, marketing technology. When

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Speaker 2: you talk to non business owners, there's a perception that

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Speaker 2: the business owner is the wealthy one or the one

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Speaker 2: that enjoys all the wonderful fruits of life. And that

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Speaker 2: might be true, but what's more true is that business

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Speaker 2: owners are the last to get paid. They're the ones

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Speaker 2: who ensure that payroll is made, rent is paid, and

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Speaker 2: if there's money left over, god willing, they get it.

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Speaker 2: And it's a very thankless task. So many business owners

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Speaker 2: end up working very, very hard and end up not

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Speaker 2: making money. I really behooves all of us to support

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Speaker 2: the business community and for those of us that have

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Speaker 2: been successful to try to share whatever we can with

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Speaker 2: the folks that are coming up so that they too

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Speaker 2: can be successful and employ more people.

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Speaker 3: So you are doing that today with your company innovation refunds.

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Speaker 3: Talk a little bit about how that came about and

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Speaker 3: specifically how it's filling that void.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really proud of it. Little background. I was

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Speaker 2: the founder and president of a rate, a real estate

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Speaker 2: investment trust alongside the chairman of CBRE, founder of Tinder,

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Speaker 2: was one of our partners that ended up getting acquired

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Speaker 2: by another read and I was looking for what my

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Speaker 2: next exciting venture was going to be, and I learned

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Speaker 2: about these government programs. The government has considerable resources that

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Speaker 2: are devoted to helping businesses, but unfortunately, most of that

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Speaker 2: aid never reaches the business owners. They're just not aware

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Speaker 2: of it, and when they are aware of it, they

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Speaker 2: don't know how to cut through the red tape and

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Speaker 2: actually apply for these funds and receive them. I learned

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Speaker 2: about this opportunity and one of my superpowers design how

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Speaker 2: to create businesses. I've done it many times. I created

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Speaker 2: the company that was specializing in helping businesses to apply

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Speaker 2: for and obtain money from programs such as research and

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Speaker 2: development enterprise zones, and then a COVID program came out

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Speaker 2: part of the Cares Act. Many businesses got PPP. Everybody

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Speaker 2: heard of PPP right absolutely well. There was an unknown

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Speaker 2: brother or sister to PPP called ERC, which many people

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Speaker 2: now have heard of. I think in large part of

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Speaker 2: our ads on iHeart My Heart's been great helping us

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Speaker 2: to get the message out that this employee retention credit

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Speaker 2: or a payroll tax refund is available. In the last

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Speaker 2: eighteen months, we've helped twenty thousand businesses receive five and

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Speaker 2: a half billion dollars that they otherwise wouldn't have received.

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Speaker 3: You sort of were right place, right time, serving a

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Speaker 3: defined need. Now that the refunds are working their way

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Speaker 3: through the system, and you built this infrastructure for serving businesses,

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Speaker 3: what's next.

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Speaker 2: This was designed to be a foundation. What's next is

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Speaker 2: multiple engines designed to serve businesses. So one engine is

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Speaker 2: a government incentive engine. It will uncover all government incentives

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Speaker 2: at a federal or state or local level and navigate

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Speaker 2: the process of applying and receiving those funds. So a

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Speaker 2: company essentially comes to our site, they give us access

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Speaker 2: to their data. We then spend our resources hiring tax

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Speaker 2: attorneys and other professionals who go through their data at

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Speaker 2: our expense, and then we match up government programs to

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Speaker 2: bring them immediate cash. That's one bucket. Another bucket is

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Speaker 2: helping them to take their accounts receivable and turn that

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Speaker 2: into immediate cash. And then the last is a marketplace

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Speaker 2: where we have a number of goods and services ranging

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Speaker 2: from insurance to helping with marketing technology training. Really a

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Speaker 2: full ecosystem designed to help the businesses to unlock their

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Speaker 2: full potential.

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Speaker 3: So let's jump to some hot topics. AI it's finally arrived.

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Speaker 3: Is it friend or foe? And what impact will that

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Speaker 3: have on small and medium businesses.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a bit of both. I saw this cute

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Speaker 2: commercial and it said AI won't take your job, It'll

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Speaker 2: be someone who has learned how to use AI. And

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Speaker 2: I can say in our company, we have a number

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Speaker 2: of folks that are on the front line of experimenting

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Speaker 2: with AI. AI is very, very powerful. It's also not

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Speaker 2: a panacea. I've seen plenty of wrong information come out

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Speaker 2: of chat GPT, so it's a powerful, powerful tool. If

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Speaker 2: harnessed properly, it can be tremendously beneficial. I think the

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Speaker 2: net net for small business is that it will be

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Speaker 2: a tremendous gain.

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Speaker 3: We see in small businesses, especially the difficulties of recruiting

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Speaker 3: enough employees. And often we talk to small business owners,

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Speaker 3: they'll say, my business is limited just by the people

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Speaker 3: I can have. You think AI helps that or is

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Speaker 3: it a threat to them in terms of eliminating their

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Speaker 3: whole business?

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Speaker 2: Oh, it can level the playing field. I think every

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Speaker 2: business owner should have some young person on their staff

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Speaker 2: experimenting with how AI can improve and change their business.

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Speaker 2: There isn't a business in America that isn't ripe for

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Speaker 2: improvement using AI and your garden variety. Twenty one year

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Speaker 2: old kid is probably ripe for figuring out ways that

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Speaker 2: you can do it.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about nimbleness. Small businesses are definitely more agile

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Speaker 3: than large businesses. Why do you think that is and

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Speaker 3: what lessons can large businesses learn from the small business community.

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Speaker 2: Well, small businesses, we make decisions rapidly. We don't get

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Speaker 2: bogged down in bureaucracy. There are leaders like you, Bob

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Speaker 2: that are able to cut through that in large organizations.

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Speaker 2: But generally speaking, I find large companies can't get out

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Speaker 2: of their own way, where small companies are able to

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Speaker 2: make very nimble decisions.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about culture. You've built this businesses, You've served other businesses.

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Speaker 3: You watch them all, you're a student of them, you've

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Speaker 3: been a professor. How do you build culture differently in

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Speaker 3: a small company than you do in a big business?

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Speaker 2: My answer is going to work for whether it's a

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Speaker 2: large company or a small company. It starts with caring

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Speaker 2: about your people. That's the number one variable is how

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Speaker 2: do you care for your people. I give you some stories.

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Speaker 2: Our headquarters is in Des Moines and there was a

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Speaker 2: freak kil storm that showed up in July. It's golf

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Speaker 2: ball size hail, and Bob I stood there at the

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Speaker 2: window in the office watching hundreds of cars in the

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Speaker 2: parking lot be destroyed. The hail came and they looked

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Speaker 2: like egg crates. When they were done, every car destroyed,

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Speaker 2: The company covered everybody's deductible. That's how you create culture.

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Speaker 2: It's how you demonstrate that you care. And it's not

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Speaker 2: about spending money, although it does cost money to create culture.

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Speaker 2: At our company, we have a full time well being

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Speaker 2: program Ignite Heart. We have a full time facilitator and

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Speaker 2: she is available to the entire staff of the company

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Speaker 2: to talk about anything that's bothering them, whether it be

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Speaker 2: there just having a grumpy day or something is very

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Speaker 2: serious in their life, providing them some guidance and some help,

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Speaker 2: and all of it feeds back into culture because the

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Speaker 2: people in the company know that the company cares about them,

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Speaker 2: and we devote resources to show them that we care

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Speaker 2: about them. And that's the really the way you create culture.

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Speaker 3: Let's jump a little bit brand. How does a small business,

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Speaker 3: medium sized business build a brand, and is that different

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Speaker 3: than a large company building a brand.

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Speaker 2: The core is the same, it's consistency of behavior. Brand

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Speaker 2: is a fingerprint of your behavior. If you want to

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Speaker 2: create brand, it's going to be a mirror of how

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Speaker 2: you act as a company. And really I find that

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Speaker 2: that starts at the top. The leaders end up determining

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Speaker 2: what that brand is going to be like and how

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Speaker 2: the company is going to react. I know, iHeart cares

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Speaker 2: about their people and their customers. You care about everybody,

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Speaker 2: and you act that way, and that's the way we act.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think it matters if you have a

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Speaker 2: small automobile repair shop that's in a small town, where

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Speaker 2: you own a very large business in a big city.

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Speaker 2: I think at the end, it's all a representation of

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Speaker 2: how you treat your people and your customers.

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Speaker 3: I want to keep going with the lessons, but first

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Speaker 3: I want to get some context on you by going

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Speaker 3: back in time. You grew up in the seventies and

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Speaker 3: eighties in Connecticut. Paint the picture of that time and

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Speaker 3: place and the family life you grew up with.

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Speaker 2: So grew up product of divorce parents who I think

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Speaker 2: like a lot of divorces were tough on the kids,

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Speaker 2: tough on the parents, and getting shuffled back and forth

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Speaker 2: between mom and dad. Ultimately, at thirteen, I started my

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Speaker 2: first computer business. I was doing about one hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars a month in sales by the time I was fifteen,

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Speaker 2: and I ended up moving to California. I actually got

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Speaker 2: out of high school early. I think, like I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe like a lot of entrepreneurs, got out, took some

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Speaker 2: college classes that interested me, and started my second or

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Speaker 2: third company by then.

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Speaker 3: So were you a good student?

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Speaker 2: I was a good student when I enjoyed learning, and

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Speaker 2: then I got bored of learning in school and I

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Speaker 2: was no longer a good student. I wanted to learn

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Speaker 2: in business.

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Speaker 3: What impact do you think your parents had on you

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Speaker 3: that still affect you today?

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Speaker 2: Well? Huge. My mother was a good mother. She wanted

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Speaker 2: to do what a mother does to take care and

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Speaker 2: to protect and to provide comfort. My father was an

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Speaker 2: entrepreneur as well and a business owner. So he was

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Speaker 2: the one that bought me that Apple computer at thirteen

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Speaker 2: years old, and at a time when he wasn't doing

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Speaker 2: all that well. It was a real stretch for him. Actually,

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Speaker 2: he really went out on a limb to be able

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Speaker 2: to afford to get me that computer. He felt that

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Speaker 2: it would materially impact my future, and it did.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll say, so, let's talk about college. Did you

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Speaker 3: go to college? Nope, and ever have a desire to

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Speaker 3: go to college.

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Speaker 2: I spent fifteen years teaching a day class at Wharton.

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Speaker 2: I think college is really about teaching you how to learn.

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Speaker 2: And if you're an entrepreneur, you probably figured that out.

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Speaker 3: So although you're a business junkie, very clearly since in

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Speaker 3: an early age, you've been very committed to helping the

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Speaker 3: world you live in. You're on the board of the

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Speaker 3: Skyhook Foundation, that was a charity founded by Kareem Abdul Jabbar,

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Speaker 3: and many more charities. How do you think about nonprofit

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Speaker 3: work as part of your life.

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Speaker 2: Probably the most proud work I did was a hospital

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Speaker 2: pastor for boy I don't know, maybe eight years or so,

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Speaker 2: over a thousand hours. I think it's really important that

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Speaker 2: we give back, and it's especially important because our lives,

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Speaker 2: our troubles all seems so important to us. And when

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Speaker 2: we can get outside of ourselves and be a help

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Speaker 2: to somebody else, it provides great perspective in our own

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Speaker 2: life as well as just being incredibly healing. So I

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Speaker 2: think everybody should experience what it is to give back.

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Speaker 3: More on Mathemagic right after this quick break. Welcome back

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Speaker 3: to mathem Magic. Let's hear more from my conversation with

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Speaker 3: Howard Bckler.

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Speaker 2: You've had a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of interesting businesses. I won't recount them all, but

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Speaker 3: when esports was just getting started, you had Howie's game

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Speaker 3: Shock in Orange County. He had it for about fifteen years.

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Speaker 3: Can you explain what that was? You were extraordinarily early here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was great. My partner in that was

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Speaker 2: a great guy named Joe Dason, and we sat around

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Speaker 2: and this is really, I think provides a great blueprint

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Speaker 2: on what it is to be an entrepreneur. We like

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Speaker 2: to play video games in that time, and so we

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Speaker 2: would get together with maybe a dozen of our friends.

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Speaker 2: Everybody would bring their PC to the office and we

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Speaker 2: would make a network connect everybody together, and inevitably, of

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Speaker 2: the dozen computers, one wouldn't connect, and everybody'd be frustrated

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Speaker 2: and we would all sit around saying, gosh, we need

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Speaker 2: a place where we can all play games and have

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Speaker 2: pizza and drink monster energy. That was the era. Many

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Speaker 2: people talk about things or dream about things, But the

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Speaker 2: way I dream is I take action. And so we

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Speaker 2: ended up drawing what this could look like, and within

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Speaker 2: six months we had built the largest computer game center

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Speaker 2: in North America. We ended up opening seven of them,

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Speaker 2: which connected over two thousand computers. This is before online gameplay.

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Speaker 2: I had literally two thousand people playing computer games against

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Speaker 2: each other before there was online gameplay.

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Speaker 3: Let's jump a little bit to you as educator. You

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Speaker 3: were not college graduate and go to college, and yet

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Speaker 3: you wound up teaching an advanced course on leasing at

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Speaker 3: the Wharton Executive Education. Why did you want to teach

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Speaker 3: and what did you get out of teaching?

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Speaker 2: Well, I love giving back and that program was part

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Speaker 2: of a program that was designed by Wharton and the

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Speaker 2: trade association that represents shopping centers called the International Council

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Speaker 2: of Shopping Centers, and it gave me an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: each to folks that were in the retail shopping center

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Speaker 2: industry to really perform better. My second business that lasted

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Speaker 2: for fifteen years, was the largest company that disposed of

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Speaker 2: surplus real estate for retailers. So whenever Walgreens or CBS

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Speaker 2: or Kroger or AMC would close the store, we would

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Speaker 2: represent them and find a solution for that real estate.

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Speaker 2: And I found that I was able to mentor a

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Speaker 2: lot of young people that were coming into the retail

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Speaker 2: real estate industry. And for literally a decade plus, I

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Speaker 2: would bump into these people and they would share how

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Speaker 2: much they received out of this class. And I always

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Speaker 2: tried to have tangible takeaways from the class. So I

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Speaker 2: really didn't want the class to just be where you

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Speaker 2: attend and then you don't find anything usable. And when

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Speaker 2: I received feedback over the years of how helpful that

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Speaker 2: was to people, it really inspired me to do more.

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Speaker 3: So one of your secret powers, I think, is how

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Speaker 3: you build a team. How do you think about hiring

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Speaker 3: people and retaining people?

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Speaker 2: Thank you, It is one of my superpowers. I have

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Speaker 2: almost no turnover in the company. People almost never leave here.

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Speaker 2: We treat people right, We make them feel that they

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Speaker 2: are heard. We go out of our way to be

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Speaker 2: transparent and honest with all of our people. We flow

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Speaker 2: information like water, and we really treat them as valued

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Speaker 2: members of our community. It's little things, whether that means

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Speaker 2: they don't have to pay for water or snacks, Those

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Speaker 2: little items, whether it be the Ignite Heart program that

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Speaker 2: we provide. If you really want to create a high

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Speaker 2: performance team, you're going to have to treat people like adults.

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Speaker 2: It's a commitment to treating your people the best possible way.

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Speaker 3: I can't let you be on this episode without really

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Speaker 3: dig into something that's very current today and especially as

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Speaker 3: it relates to small and medium businesses. Community banks have

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Speaker 3: a very special and key relationship with those small and

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Speaker 3: medium banks. How have the difficulties with these regional banks

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Speaker 3: affected these businesses and how does that relationship change? Who

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Speaker 3: fills the hole?

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Speaker 2: Thank you for asking that. So I have one group

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Speaker 2: of investors in this company, and that is a group

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Speaker 2: of community banks. They're my only investors. They've been with

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Speaker 2: me since the very beginning, so I'm really very close

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Speaker 2: to the subject. This is a really, really tricky one

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Speaker 2: because every business owner that I know is looking at

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Speaker 2: their bank balances making sure that their money is secure.

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Speaker 2: Picking the right bank is really really important, and the

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Speaker 2: large banks provide a valuable service, but the community banks

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Speaker 2: are also really really important. Unfortunately, over the next few years,

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Speaker 2: we're going to find a little bit of a desert

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Speaker 2: for businesses, and we're already seeing it. In the financing side,

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Speaker 2: small businesses are having a much harder time and likely

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Speaker 2: are going to continue to have a hard time finding

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Speaker 2: good banking solutions. And I would just warn everybody watch

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Speaker 2: those limits over two hundred and fifty thousand. You're not protected.

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Speaker 2: Banks have something called Interfi, which will essentially spread your

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Speaker 2: deposits out over a group of banks, and that's a

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Speaker 2: really important service that business owners utilize. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of uninsured money out there that really scares me.

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Speaker 3: So let's jump to some advice. If someone wants to

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Speaker 3: follow a path like yours, serial entrepreneur, business after business,

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Speaker 3: what advice could you give.

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Speaker 2: Them get a lobotomy? Well, first of all, if somebody

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Speaker 2: really has this in their heart, nothing will stop them.

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Speaker 2: Entrepreneurs can't be stopped. What I would encourage them to

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Speaker 2: do is to focus on their spreadsheets. Focus on the numbers.

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Speaker 2: Ideas are great numbers are where it comes together, kind

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Speaker 2: of like the name of your podcast, right, magic is required.

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Speaker 2: Without magic, miracles don't happen. But without math, nothing happens.

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Speaker 3: If you could go back in time and give your

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Speaker 3: eighteen year old self some advice, what would that advice be.

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Speaker 2: Get a better CFO. If I had the CFO that

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Speaker 2: I have today at my previous companies, I would have

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Speaker 2: been much more successful. I've been successful, but my current

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Speaker 2: CFO is a rock star at the highest level, and

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Speaker 2: I see how important it is.

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Speaker 3: We end each episode of Math and Magic with two shoutouts,

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Speaker 3: one to the greatest person you know on the math

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Speaker 3: side of business, somebody, as you pointed out, who runs

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Speaker 3: things by the numbers or data. The other is the inspired,

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Speaker 3: creative think or the magic side of the business. Who

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Speaker 3: are your two shout outs?

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Speaker 2: Well, the math is going to be the CFO I mentioned.

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Speaker 2: His name is Chad Sinclair and he's really a wizard

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Speaker 2: with math. He's the best I've ever seen in my life,

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Speaker 2: So shout out to him on that. On the magic side,

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Speaker 2: it would be Steve Jobs. He always said people don't

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Speaker 2: know what they want, You have to show them what

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Speaker 2: they want, and he really was a magician that could

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Speaker 2: pull out of his hat the most amazing products.

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Speaker 3: Howard, you have had a remarkable life as a strategist

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Speaker 3: and an entrepreneur. Thanks for sharing your lessons and your

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Speaker 3: insights with us today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Bob, really was a pleasure being here with you,

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Speaker 2: and thanks to you, and thanks to iHeart.

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Speaker 3: Here's a few things I picked up in my conversation

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Speaker 3: with Howard. One. Prioritize customer service. Great customer service helps

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Speaker 3: your companies stand out. Respect your customers by not making excuses,

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Speaker 3: by being honest and transparent, and by directly addressing their issue.

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Speaker 3: You'll be surprised how much it will help your reputation,

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Speaker 3: your bottom line, and your brand.

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Speaker 2: Two.

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Speaker 3: Focus on employee wellness vocal sources to making sure your

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Speaker 3: team knows your care. It costs money to create good culture,

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Speaker 3: but it doesn't cost anything to show your people that

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Speaker 3: you care about them. Whether it's a program dedicated to wellness,

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Speaker 3: or maybe it's just a thoughtful gesture. Taking that extra

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Speaker 3: step can be the backbone of a successful business. Three.

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Speaker 3: Your brand reflects your actions. You can work toward building

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Speaker 3: the brand you want, but ultimately, your brand is a

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Speaker 3: mirror of your company's values and behaviors. Create consistency, show

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Speaker 3: you care, and your brand's imprint will be stronger for it.

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Speaker 2: That's it for today's episode.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman.

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Speaker 1: Special Thanks to Sidney Rosenbloom for booking and wrangling our

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Speaker 1: wonderful talent, which is no small feat our editor Emily Meronoff,

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Speaker 1: our engineers Jessica Crincitch and Bahid Fraser, our executive producers

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Speaker 1: Nikki Etoor and Ali Perry, and of course Gail Raoul,

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Speaker 1: Eric Angel Noel and everyone who helped bring this show

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Speaker 1: to your ears.

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Speaker 2: Until next time,