WEBVTT - Part Two: The Jane Collective: Direct Action Abortion Access Works 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.360 Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.880 It's a podcast. The title isn't sarcastic. We actually talk 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.799 about people we think are cool and who did things 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:12.360 that we also think are cool. And you know who 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.520 else is cool? Is my guest this week Samantha McVeigh, 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:18.360 who is the host of Stuff Mom Never Told You. 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.639 And it's not only my new best friend, but dear listener, 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.840 she is your new best friend as well. Yes, how 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.760 you doing? I'm doing so? See, this is the theme 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:29.400 that I've been trying to run with. This is how 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.880 I make friends by trying to tell them I'm cool. 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:35.000 So this is perfect. So I'm going to be on 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.320 the show about people would do cool stuff because I 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:40.360 want to be cool, Like That's that's how it works, right, 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.360 and then people want to be friends with me? Yeah definitely. Okay, 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.360 That's what I'm relying on as well. At time, I'm 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.320 going to channel this. Let's go yeah uh. And we 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.920 also have Sophie with us, who is not only the 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.720 producer of this show, but and the coolest and it's 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.880 also basically the Pope of podcasts. Um. Yes, that's the 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.560 charge of all podcasts. And much like the Pope she 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.600 decides who lives and who dies. Yeah. Yes, and much 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.280 like the Pope, direct tells us what's moral than what's not, 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.840 even if we don't believe her half the time, and 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:13.920 then we just act on whatever Sophie says instead of 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.440 actually listening to her. Sorry, we painted you into a 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:25.840 corner here, so I too, like fun hats Yeah it's true. Um, 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.680 it's true, you do. Yeah, but you know it's not 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:34.360 about me. Let's go, let's go. Okay, Okay, So today 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:36.560 we're doing part two of our two part series on 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:38.920 the Jane Collective, who are a badass crew of underground 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.640 abortionists and pre Roe v Wade Chicago. And this episode 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.720 will make approximately zero sense if you don't go back 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.360 and listen to part one. So go listen to part one. 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:54.400 We'll wait. Okay. So Jane offering abortions no longer reliant 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.880 on crime guy Nick Mike, but are doing it themselves Mike, Nick, Yeah, 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.920 Mike next. Sorry, Um, and I'm just making sure we 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:04.560 have both versions in so that we are correct. But 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.160 we did forget the title sexy, so sexy Mike Nick 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:12.520 sexy Nick Mike right, right, totally, Yeah, that is the 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.680 title of the Yeah, like, yeah, um okay, So so 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.960 Jane is offering abortions for every trimester. Uh, and this 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.200 is like really not how to d I y an 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.680 abortion podcast, although if those exists, you should go listen 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:26.720 to them, but this is not one of them. And 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:28.600 the techniques I'm going to be talking about are like 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.840 fifty years old and are transmitted through me, who is 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.000 an absolute lay person who doesn't have a uterus and 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.200 is completely grossed up by the idea of the inside 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.720 of my own body. Um Like, if I go to 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.360 a training about how to apply a tourniquet, I what 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.640 I do is I am pretend like I'm not there, 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:51.840 and then learn the information. Um, so just keep things, 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:56.080 pretend you're not there, and just learn. Yeah, exactly. And 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.560 but it it feels important to me to understand some 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:02.920 of the ways that people have historically and contemporarily go 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.799 about ending unwanted pregnancies. For some weird reason, it just 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.639 seems like really important right now. It's hard to say 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:14.079 why as a person in Georgia, but many laws of 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.120 floating I don't either. Yeah, it's so it's so weird, 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:19.640 just someone in the air, I don't know. And and 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:21.560 one thing I talked to when I was talking through 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.360 this show with one of my friends is a reproductive 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.400 rights justice activist person all of those words in the 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.640 proper order um. One of the things that they were 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.440 pointing out is that it's important not to present this 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.200 dark age before Roe v. Wade legal abortion access matters, 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:39.360 and we need to defend that. But we need to 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.720 like soberly recognized that people can and have learned how 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:45.760 to take care of not just their own health, but 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.680 like on a community level and on a like a 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.760 real level, UM, so that people recognize that they do 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.839 have real options if we lose Roe v. Wade, right, 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.640 so that it's not like your only option is to 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.040 go to someone who's really sketchy, uh, because we need 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.160 to instead fight to make sure that that doesn't become 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.400 the case. So when Jane started, they were mostly doing 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:11.080 a style of abortion called dilation and CURETAS or a 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.440 d n C, especially for first trimester abortions. And what 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.840 they do is they injected a local anesthetic and then 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.000 they scraped the walls of the uterus with a loop 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.880 shape instrument called a cut, and they then provided pills 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.320 and injections to stop infection and bleeding, and they recommended 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.320 a gynecologist, or they recommended getting a dialogical check up, 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.120 and if you didn't have one, they recommended you won. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:36.200 And d n C, at least as it was performed originally, 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.840 is a fairly dangerous procedure. It's it's not a bad procedure. 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.159 It's important that people be able to do this, but 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.440 it's a it's a it involves sharp objects in sensitive areas. 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.359 And Jane was really fucking good at it. But it 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.560 it seems like some of the worst ways that inexperienced 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.800 abortionists UM funck patients up is with d n C, 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.240 and especially also with herbal abortions, but we're not going 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.599 to get into that on the show. Um and Jane 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.440 didn't funk with herbal abortions. To my knowledge, d NC 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:03.840 is still used today, although the term is a wider 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.720 usage now basically to include things, um other than a 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:11.520 sharp curet. They like suction curets, vacuum inspiration as it's 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.359 sometimes called, where they vacuum things out instead of scraping 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.960 them out. But to tell you about vacuum inspiration, I 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:18.560 get to tell you about a bunch of other really 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:22.160 cool people. Let's go with people who are complicated who 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.400 did cool things for some of these people instead of 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.840 people who I want to blanketly tell you are cool. 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:33.080 Because Harvey Carmen was not an m d uh. Some 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.960 reports claimed that he is a psychology doctorate, so he 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.480 was technically a doctor. Others claimed that he just had 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:42.120 a master's degree in theater, and while that is vastly 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:44.080 that is it is. He might have had both. He 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:45.760 might have later gone back and got a doctor a 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.719 degree in psychology. I don't know. Okay, when he was 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.040 still a student, he was practicing abortion in California and 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:54.360 one of his patients died and he served two and 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:56.680 a half years in prison for it. And I literally 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:58.480 don't have a means by which to judge whether or 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:00.800 not he was a responsible practitioner who happened to lose 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.520 a patient due to the circumstances that he was forced 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:08.000 into by criminalization, or whether he was a sketchy, fucking, 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.880 shitty abortionist. I literally don't have a way to at 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:17.520 least my information gathering powers did not answer this um. 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:22.119 But he was an innovator, and which really doesn't answer 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.120 the question of whether or not he was responsible or ethical, 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.040 because just because you want to try new ship doesn't 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:31.240 necessarily make it good. Right. It's kind of like when 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:36.039 doctors were practicing curing hysteria on women and we know 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.960 what that led to, right totally. But one time, when 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.080 he's in jail for practicing abortions, he invents a new 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:47.960 abortion technique which has revolutionized first trimester abortions. And it's 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.800 like largely the reason, as far as I understand, um, 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.240 that we have safe first trimester abortions. However, when I 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.520 say revolutionize and invented, you'll be shocked to know that 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.960 Chinese doctors figured it out a long time early, um, 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.599 and that information was not transmitted to the West until 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.720 after Western practitioner figured it out, which happens time and 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.520 time again. Every time you're like this guy invented a thing, 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:16.840 You're like this, this guy invented it for the Western world. 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:21.280 Credit for it, Yeah, totally, but he uh. He invented 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.720 something called the Carmen canula, which is a flexible curet 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.480 and it it basically allows vacuum aspiration. It allows the 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.640 idea of using in this case originally a syringe to 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.360 suck things out with a flexible tube instead of using 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.640 a sharp, you know, curet and it dramatically reduces the 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.200 risk of perforat and the uterus, and it reduces the 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:46.040 need for anaesthesia to relax the cervix and it um. 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:47.840 I mean, it's just a fucking flexible tube as far 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.600 as I can tell. And and it gets called vacuum 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:52.720 aspiration or the non medical term, and I'm gonna talk 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.080 about this in a little bit is called menstrual extraction. 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:57.640 The former, as best as I understand it is like 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.400 the medical name, and the latter is it's dem class 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.440 name used in different people by two women who immediately 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.560 took upon his concept and improved upon it. Carol Downer 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.840 and Laurie Anne Rothman were two of the most important 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.920 underground abortion providers at the time. Yet they're rarely referred 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:17.920 to as that because what they did is they invented 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.040 and again I can't speak to everyone ever having done 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.800 this before, but they invented a menstrual extraction. They took 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:29.320 the existing vacuum aspiration and they added um both a 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.040 one way valve in order to keep air from accident 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.360 going into the uterus, and then also a jar mason 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.880 jar that's attached to it so that more supterial can 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.440 be removed at once, and so now you can do 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.960 a full menstrual extraction, which is basically the idea of 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.040 like you can pass all of your men sees all 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.000 at once instead of waiting for it to slowly pass. 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.080 And what happens when you do that is if you 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.360 happen to be pregnant, and if with the first traemester abortion, 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:02.520 you are suddenly no longer pregnant. Okay. And they didn't 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:06.360 like advertise this as an abortion technique because that would 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.800 have been illegal. Instead, they like were like, oh, groups 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.719 of women could just all get together and provide this 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:16.199 service for each other. Because it actually takes multiple people 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.120 to use this device. You can't necessarily self administer it 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:24.240 um just because of angles and I don't know UM, 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.200 And I to be frank, I had never heard of this. 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.439 And about half of the people I've talked to whom 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:30.960 have unteruses had heard of this, and half of them hadn't. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:35.080 And I don't know other myself like that, not in person, 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.360 like I obviously have seen the pictures of so as 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.040 you're describing, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, I get it. Yeah, 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.640 And it gets called their inventions called a dell M 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.600 d E L space e M in case you all 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.120 want to go look up how to do this kind 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.280 of interesting thing. In V one, they invent this thing 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.400 and then they downplay the abortion side of it. But 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.200 they go to the National Organization Conference of Women, the 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.439 NOW Conference in California one so they can announced this 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.400 invention to the world, and um, they were like, hell, yeah, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.920 everyone's gonna love this. But instead the NOW organizers were like, 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.240 this is a little bit much for a booth. I 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.600 don't think you can have a booth for an abortion here. Um, 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.679 And they're like, what does prevent structs? Right now? I'm 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.679 putting words in their mouth. But and so they put 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:20.920 up flyers saying, hey, come to our hotel room and 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.800 we'll show you how to use this device. And everyone 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.839 fucking loved it, right because it fucking ruled. And so 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:28.880 they gathered this list of names and they went on 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.360 this greyhound tour across the country giving presentations about the 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.760 del M. And I just love how like scrappy it 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.960 is that they like invent this thing that involves Mason 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.160 jars and they don't have a car, so they're just like, again, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.120 I mean, maybe a car, but they go on a 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:45.679 greyhound tour and that that rules. And Lorraine has a 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:47.880 quote from two thousand two that sums up the sort 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.040 of de medicalization approach that was popular with a lot 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:55.439 of the underground abortion access people before in n What 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.640 did women do before there were doctors. Let's stop the 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:00.880 humiliation of trying to persue aid the powers that be 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.760 to legalize abortion. Let's just take back the technology, the tools, 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.160 the skills, and the information to perform early abortions and 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.240 be in charge of our own reproduction. And once again, 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:13.080 you'll be shocked to know that this device is having 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.920 something of a comeback in the modern era. Mm hmm. 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.840 And so Jane didn't use the Dell M specifically as 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:22.679 far as I can tell, but they did use the 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:27.360 Carmen canula extensively, and I think in generally in combination 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:30.679 with vacuum aspiration. They also, and this gets into the 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.000 sketchier side of some of it, they use another one 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.960 of Carmen's inventions that was a lot less successful. They 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:38.720 use something called the super coil. I'm actually curious if 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:40.720 you heard of this. I'm trying to figure out how 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.360 known this is. And I don't think so. But it's 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.160 one of those I'm like, as you describe it, I 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.400 may know of it. I'm not trying to put you 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.800 on the spot. Yeah, I'm trying to be like yeah, 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.960 because I'm sitting here like, Okay, We've gotten through several 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:00.040 devices and I think I'm glazed up. But yeah, you 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.520 going no, no, no, So the super coil is not 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.760 around today, um because it is a bad idea as 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.079 far as I can tell, and it was meant to 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.880 revolutionized second trimester abortion. Basically, he was like, I have 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.920 revolutionized first trimester abortion and made it easier for lay 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.320 people to do it. Now I want a revolutionary second 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:21.679 trimester abortion. And so the super coil involves coiling up 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.240 like like tightly coiled plastic rings basically attached to a 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.280 string that are inserted into the uterus and then left 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:32.400 to expand um so that they could be pulled out 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:36.520 and then clear out the area as they you know, 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:41.040 causing the I did not know what this is horrifying though, Yeah, 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.839 I feel like I've had Sophie. Um. Yeah, so my 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.680 last interaction with Robert when Sophie was them talking about 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.439 a birth control that attached itself and tore out people's shooters. 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.520 So this is amazing. I feel like we've comfort circle. 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.480 We definitely have come full circle. That them on that 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.160 episode with Robert was like one of the like I 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.640 it like makes me itchy. I'm like it was so terrifying. Yeah, 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.160 I still see people post, but yeah, like that, we're 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.400 back here to something that goes out, expands and tries 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.920 to pull things out of people's vagina. So I'm like, Okay, 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:20.800 we're back. We're back that certain things. Samantha, I love 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.679 me to dissociated with this. Let's keep going. This is amazing. 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:26.559 I mean I'm now like, yes, this is my world, 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.320 let's go. This is the This is the darkest chunk 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:33.199 of this episode. I believe even later they get arrested 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.920 and it's not as dark as this chunk. So they 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.160 helped Carmen test it. They sided with him in debates 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.760 to come, and they were probably wrong about it. It 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.199 was meant to help lay people provide abortions, but it 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.120 was it was probably too good to be true. Basically, 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.040 like they were. At least one person I read argued 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:51.959 that basically they were like sucked in by the idea 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:53.640 of like, oh, we have a nu miracle device. This 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.079 rules because they had just gotten a numerical device from 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.880 the same guy. Not numeracle but not number, but miracle 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.280 device that is new. Um. So he goes and tests it, 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.840 and he first tests it through and with international planned 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:11.920 parenthood in on Bangladeshi women at a large scale, and 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.160 it I'm not aware of it killing anyone, but it 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.160 did not do incredibly well. Uh, and there were a 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.560 lot of complications. I would say it sounds like I 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:26.120 could cause permanent damage, which is kind of the horror 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:31.160 stories people tell that our anti choice about the permanent damage, 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.520 and this seems to follow suit, because I can't imagine 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.640 something just at that point in time being like, oh, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.360 it's self working. It just expands and grabs the right things, 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:46.560 but doesn't exactly. And Uh, there's a lot of different 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.560 arguments about or I've seen a couple of different things 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.080 about whether or not Jane was involved in using this 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.360 or testing this. I do believe they did use this 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.600 successfully for a number of abortions, and again, their overall 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.200 results were that they were as good as any medical 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:08.120 facility at that time. Right right, Um, But anyway, this 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.560 is a darker saying that they were involved in, right. 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.720 I mean, that makes me question did they give the 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.480 people who came in, the patients and clients a choice 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.840 on what kind of procedure they could have? Uh? And 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.000 I know they were pretty good about giving like risk 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.160 statistics and let them know aftercare and all of that. 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.320 So I wonder if there was like a moment of like, 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.600 you have these options, now, which would you like to do? 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.920 I I would like to get off of them the 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:37.640 benefit of the doubt of that around that, But I 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.960 I don't know. And because I honestly did not know 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.760 this part of this history, I was like, oh, yeah, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.120 that's that's a little alarming. You don't want to start 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.640 testing things. And when you have someone testing on a 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.440 different group of people, you know it's probably not good, 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.920 which is the history of all medicine essentially. But you know, 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.080 that's a whole different rabbit hole that I will not 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.200 do as a negative Nelly moment though. No, No, I 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:04.760 mean like, and this is like, this is the most 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.320 warts and all that I'm going to get around this, 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.960 and even this is like a complicated thing. Um. You know. 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.040 One of the things that I read one of the 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:17.000 black women who volunteered for this was like basically defended 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.320 her position being like I'm paraphrasing, but like if I'm 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:21.920 kidding me saying that I can't consent to this just 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.120 because I'm a black woman, you know. And so there's 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.000 this like I'm reading biased reports, right, I'm reading people 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.720 who are trying to make positions to either claim that 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.880 this was this terrible thing that people did or this brilliant, 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.560 brave thing that people did. And I don't have anything 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.640 near the right position to understand what isn't is an't 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.680 ethical for for what happened here, and like what level 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.520 of informed consent was available? Um, but I'm also under 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:54.200 the impression that a lot of their other options were worse, right, Um, 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.240 So we come back to the fact that there's so 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.840 many things that pushes people to a certain point, and 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.880 when it's not accessible and it becomes looked out as 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.760 again unlawful, then people are pushed to the point that 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.440 is is extreme. So you do what you can, and 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.720 people being in that point, we are going to choose 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.200 what they think is lesser evil for them. Yeah, and 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.600 it's not the case like that he shouldn't have to 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:26.679 be even that conversation. Yeah, totally, And and so as 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.600 a Carmen. He kind of disappears after this whole fiasco. 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:31.879 He's like, I try to invent a thing and it 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.920 didn't work, and he kind of his trub was called. 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.879 At least from my my sloping at this point, it 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.359 wasn't a medical doctor, right, You're saying that he's either 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:46.720 maybe maybe in psychology, but also maybe just theater, Like 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:51.280 he just did a thing. However, as as a different 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.080 states would legalize abortion, he was so well known that 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:58.600 he would be invited to come participate in legal abortion 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.920 areas because he was a really experienced abortionist. Um, but 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.480 that also empowered him to do all of these things 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.800 that a real messy and so it's just like kind 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.600 of interesting that like this is the person who did 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.359 the thing that got safe first trimester abortions available, you know, 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.320 um right, I mean some good did come of it, right, 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.200 and now we have chemical abortions for first foremaster that 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.520 are are safer and better than this method is as 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.000 far as I understand the circumstances, but I don't know. 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.680 There's so many things to this in this conversation about 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.720 what this looks like when it is not considered healthcare 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.760 and why it's so blase, and yet some good did 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:41.440 come of it, but some bad to come of it. 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:46.520 And then there's this need of like understanding it is healthcare. Yeah, 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.480 totally okay, But but who is cool? Yes, I will, 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.320 I will go on. I don't know him to say, 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.080 is another abortionist to popularize some ship that Jane wound 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:00.000 up using a guy named Robert Spencer. And Robert spend 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:01.760 who was a true believer and he was not a grifter. 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.080 He was a doctor and actual medical doctor and the 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.800 coal fields in Ashland, Pennsylvania, and he cut his doctor 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.040 in teeth inventing new ways to treat black lung and 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.159 coal miners um, including a lot of pioneering work and 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.440 I don't know a pronounce this where broncos scopy, bronchios 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.920 is taking cameras down people's throats, I don't know, looking 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.920 at people's throats, and and and he did experiment with 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:25.959 black lung. But this is also a situation where like, oh, 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.119 these coal miners are dying and no one here is 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.560 like paying attention to black lung except me. And so 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:34.159 he's very well liked, this doctor in this town. And 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.360 then sometime in the early twenties he starts a coal 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:39.480 miner's wife is like, Yo, I'm pregnant. I'd really rather 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:41.760 not be uh, And I tried calling Jane, but the 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:43.800 number is an active yet or something. I'm like forty 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.040 years too early. So he um, he performs an abortion, 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.280 and then he just starts performing abortions in this town. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.239 And he single handedly performs something like forty thousand abortions. Um. 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.200 He died in nineteen sixty nine before his work could 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.679 become legal, and his wife burned all of his records. 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.080 I guess to either protect his legacy or maybe his 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:07.160 staff or maybe herself. I don't know. And he uh. Eventually, 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:09.760 the entire town's economy, like huge chunk of the town's 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.320 economy relies on this guy because people are coming from 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:14.199 all over the place to get abortions here, and they 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.160 like staying at hotels and ship but the hotels didn't 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:19.680 some of the hotels at least didn't let black patients stay. 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.440 So he built accommodations so that black patients could still 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:25.639 come and get abortions in this town. He was arrested 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.960 three times for providing abortions. One of the times he 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.800 was arrested at least was because a patient died. Um, 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:37.960 they died from anesthesia problems. And you know, I'm not 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:42.560 a doctor. I know that anesthesia is a complicated thing, 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.600 especially eighty years ago. You know, I'm not trying to 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.720 like lay judgment on him for this, but he was 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.720 acquitted two of the times he was arrested, um, because 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:54.840 I think everyone in town was like, you can't convict 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:56.280 this guy. What are you what are you talking about? 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.119 Like this is a guy like this guy were like 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:04.040 abortion yeah yeah, and like um, and he also had 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:09.880 union protection. The United Mine Workers had his back, okay, okay, yeah, 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:12.360 and they're like union miners did not funk around back 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:17.000 then as our boy, don't touch you. Yeah. And his 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.199 quote about why he why people liked him. I've been 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.560 here since nineteen nineteen. I dare say I've helped out 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.520 half the town, even on the abortion end. There's probably 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:28.480 one of my patients related to a family in half 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.640