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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's a podcast. The title isn't sarcastic. We actually talk

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Speaker 1: about people we think are cool and who did things

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Speaker 1: that we also think are cool. And you know who

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Speaker 1: else is cool? Is my guest this week Samantha McVeigh,

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Speaker 1: who is the host of Stuff Mom Never Told You.

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Speaker 1: And it's not only my new best friend, but dear listener,

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Speaker 1: she is your new best friend as well. Yes, how

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Speaker 1: you doing? I'm doing so? See, this is the theme

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Speaker 1: that I've been trying to run with. This is how

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Speaker 1: I make friends by trying to tell them I'm cool.

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Speaker 1: So this is perfect. So I'm going to be on

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Speaker 1: the show about people would do cool stuff because I

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Speaker 1: want to be cool, Like That's that's how it works, right,

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Speaker 1: and then people want to be friends with me? Yeah definitely. Okay,

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm relying on as well. At time, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to channel this. Let's go yeah uh. And we

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Speaker 1: also have Sophie with us, who is not only the

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Speaker 1: producer of this show, but and the coolest and it's

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Speaker 1: also basically the Pope of podcasts. Um. Yes, that's the

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Speaker 1: charge of all podcasts. And much like the Pope she

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Speaker 1: decides who lives and who dies. Yeah. Yes, and much

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Speaker 1: like the Pope, direct tells us what's moral than what's not,

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Speaker 1: even if we don't believe her half the time, and

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Speaker 1: then we just act on whatever Sophie says instead of

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Speaker 1: actually listening to her. Sorry, we painted you into a

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Speaker 1: corner here, so I too, like fun hats Yeah it's true. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's true, you do. Yeah, but you know it's not

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Speaker 1: about me. Let's go, let's go. Okay, Okay, So today

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Speaker 1: we're doing part two of our two part series on

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Speaker 1: the Jane Collective, who are a badass crew of underground

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Speaker 1: abortionists and pre Roe v Wade Chicago. And this episode

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Speaker 1: will make approximately zero sense if you don't go back

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Speaker 1: and listen to part one. So go listen to part one.

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Speaker 1: We'll wait. Okay. So Jane offering abortions no longer reliant

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Speaker 1: on crime guy Nick Mike, but are doing it themselves Mike, Nick, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Mike next. Sorry, Um, and I'm just making sure we

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Speaker 1: have both versions in so that we are correct. But

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Speaker 1: we did forget the title sexy, so sexy Mike Nick

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Speaker 1: sexy Nick Mike right, right, totally, Yeah, that is the

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Speaker 1: title of the Yeah, like, yeah, um okay, So so

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Speaker 1: Jane is offering abortions for every trimester. Uh, and this

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Speaker 1: is like really not how to d I y an

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Speaker 1: abortion podcast, although if those exists, you should go listen

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Speaker 1: to them, but this is not one of them. And

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Speaker 1: the techniques I'm going to be talking about are like

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Speaker 1: fifty years old and are transmitted through me, who is

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Speaker 1: an absolute lay person who doesn't have a uterus and

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Speaker 1: is completely grossed up by the idea of the inside

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Speaker 1: of my own body. Um Like, if I go to

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Speaker 1: a training about how to apply a tourniquet, I what

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Speaker 1: I do is I am pretend like I'm not there,

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Speaker 1: and then learn the information. Um, so just keep things,

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Speaker 1: pretend you're not there, and just learn. Yeah, exactly. And

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Speaker 1: but it it feels important to me to understand some

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Speaker 1: of the ways that people have historically and contemporarily go

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Speaker 1: about ending unwanted pregnancies. For some weird reason, it just

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Speaker 1: seems like really important right now. It's hard to say

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Speaker 1: why as a person in Georgia, but many laws of

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Speaker 1: floating I don't either. Yeah, it's so it's so weird,

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Speaker 1: just someone in the air, I don't know. And and

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Speaker 1: one thing I talked to when I was talking through

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Speaker 1: this show with one of my friends is a reproductive

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Speaker 1: rights justice activist person all of those words in the

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Speaker 1: proper order um. One of the things that they were

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Speaker 1: pointing out is that it's important not to present this

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Speaker 1: dark age before Roe v. Wade legal abortion access matters,

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Speaker 1: and we need to defend that. But we need to

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Speaker 1: like soberly recognized that people can and have learned how

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Speaker 1: to take care of not just their own health, but

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Speaker 1: like on a community level and on a like a

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Speaker 1: real level, UM, so that people recognize that they do

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Speaker 1: have real options if we lose Roe v. Wade, right,

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Speaker 1: so that it's not like your only option is to

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Speaker 1: go to someone who's really sketchy, uh, because we need

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Speaker 1: to instead fight to make sure that that doesn't become

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Speaker 1: the case. So when Jane started, they were mostly doing

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Speaker 1: a style of abortion called dilation and CURETAS or a

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Speaker 1: d n C, especially for first trimester abortions. And what

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Speaker 1: they do is they injected a local anesthetic and then

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Speaker 1: they scraped the walls of the uterus with a loop

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Speaker 1: shape instrument called a cut, and they then provided pills

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Speaker 1: and injections to stop infection and bleeding, and they recommended

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Speaker 1: a gynecologist, or they recommended getting a dialogical check up,

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Speaker 1: and if you didn't have one, they recommended you won.

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Speaker 1: And d n C, at least as it was performed originally,

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Speaker 1: is a fairly dangerous procedure. It's it's not a bad procedure.

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Speaker 1: It's important that people be able to do this, but

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a it involves sharp objects in sensitive areas.

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Speaker 1: And Jane was really fucking good at it. But it

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Speaker 1: it seems like some of the worst ways that inexperienced

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Speaker 1: abortionists UM funck patients up is with d n C,

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Speaker 1: and especially also with herbal abortions, but we're not going

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Speaker 1: to get into that on the show. Um and Jane

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Speaker 1: didn't funk with herbal abortions. To my knowledge, d NC

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Speaker 1: is still used today, although the term is a wider

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Speaker 1: usage now basically to include things, um other than a

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Speaker 1: sharp curet. They like suction curets, vacuum inspiration as it's

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Speaker 1: sometimes called, where they vacuum things out instead of scraping

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Speaker 1: them out. But to tell you about vacuum inspiration, I

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Speaker 1: get to tell you about a bunch of other really

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Speaker 1: cool people. Let's go with people who are complicated who

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Speaker 1: did cool things for some of these people instead of

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Speaker 1: people who I want to blanketly tell you are cool.

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Speaker 1: Because Harvey Carmen was not an m d uh. Some

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Speaker 1: reports claimed that he is a psychology doctorate, so he

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Speaker 1: was technically a doctor. Others claimed that he just had

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Speaker 1: a master's degree in theater, and while that is vastly

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Speaker 1: that is it is. He might have had both. He

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Speaker 1: might have later gone back and got a doctor a

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Speaker 1: degree in psychology. I don't know. Okay, when he was

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Speaker 1: still a student, he was practicing abortion in California and

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Speaker 1: one of his patients died and he served two and

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Speaker 1: a half years in prison for it. And I literally

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Speaker 1: don't have a means by which to judge whether or

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Speaker 1: not he was a responsible practitioner who happened to lose

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Speaker 1: a patient due to the circumstances that he was forced

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Speaker 1: into by criminalization, or whether he was a sketchy, fucking,

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Speaker 1: shitty abortionist. I literally don't have a way to at

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Speaker 1: least my information gathering powers did not answer this um.

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Speaker 1: But he was an innovator, and which really doesn't answer

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Speaker 1: the question of whether or not he was responsible or ethical,

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Speaker 1: because just because you want to try new ship doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily make it good. Right. It's kind of like when

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Speaker 1: doctors were practicing curing hysteria on women and we know

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Speaker 1: what that led to, right totally. But one time, when

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Speaker 1: he's in jail for practicing abortions, he invents a new

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Speaker 1: abortion technique which has revolutionized first trimester abortions. And it's

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Speaker 1: like largely the reason, as far as I understand, um,

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Speaker 1: that we have safe first trimester abortions. However, when I

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Speaker 1: say revolutionize and invented, you'll be shocked to know that

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Speaker 1: Chinese doctors figured it out a long time early, um,

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Speaker 1: and that information was not transmitted to the West until

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Speaker 1: after Western practitioner figured it out, which happens time and

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Speaker 1: time again. Every time you're like this guy invented a thing,

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Speaker 1: You're like this, this guy invented it for the Western world.

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Speaker 1: Credit for it, Yeah, totally, but he uh. He invented

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Speaker 1: something called the Carmen canula, which is a flexible curet

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Speaker 1: and it it basically allows vacuum aspiration. It allows the

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Speaker 1: idea of using in this case originally a syringe to

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Speaker 1: suck things out with a flexible tube instead of using

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Speaker 1: a sharp, you know, curet and it dramatically reduces the

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Speaker 1: risk of perforat and the uterus, and it reduces the

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Speaker 1: need for anaesthesia to relax the cervix and it um.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a fucking flexible tube as far

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Speaker 1: as I can tell. And and it gets called vacuum

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Speaker 1: aspiration or the non medical term, and I'm gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about this in a little bit is called menstrual extraction.

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Speaker 1: The former, as best as I understand it is like

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Speaker 1: the medical name, and the latter is it's dem class

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Speaker 1: name used in different people by two women who immediately

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Speaker 1: took upon his concept and improved upon it. Carol Downer

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Speaker 1: and Laurie Anne Rothman were two of the most important

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Speaker 1: underground abortion providers at the time. Yet they're rarely referred

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Speaker 1: to as that because what they did is they invented

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Speaker 1: and again I can't speak to everyone ever having done

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Speaker 1: this before, but they invented a menstrual extraction. They took

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Speaker 1: the existing vacuum aspiration and they added um both a

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Speaker 1: one way valve in order to keep air from accident

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Speaker 1: going into the uterus, and then also a jar mason

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Speaker 1: jar that's attached to it so that more supterial can

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Speaker 1: be removed at once, and so now you can do

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Speaker 1: a full menstrual extraction, which is basically the idea of

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Speaker 1: like you can pass all of your men sees all

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Speaker 1: at once instead of waiting for it to slowly pass.

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Speaker 1: And what happens when you do that is if you

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Speaker 1: happen to be pregnant, and if with the first traemester abortion,

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Speaker 1: you are suddenly no longer pregnant. Okay. And they didn't

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Speaker 1: like advertise this as an abortion technique because that would

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Speaker 1: have been illegal. Instead, they like were like, oh, groups

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Speaker 1: of women could just all get together and provide this

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Speaker 1: service for each other. Because it actually takes multiple people

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Speaker 1: to use this device. You can't necessarily self administer it

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Speaker 1: um just because of angles and I don't know UM,

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Speaker 1: And I to be frank, I had never heard of this.

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Speaker 1: And about half of the people I've talked to whom

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Speaker 1: have unteruses had heard of this, and half of them hadn't.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know other myself like that, not in person,

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Speaker 1: like I obviously have seen the pictures of so as

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Speaker 1: you're describing, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, I get it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it gets called their inventions called a dell M

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Speaker 1: d E L space e M in case you all

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Speaker 1: want to go look up how to do this kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting thing. In V one, they invent this thing

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Speaker 1: and then they downplay the abortion side of it. But

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Speaker 1: they go to the National Organization Conference of Women, the

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Speaker 1: NOW Conference in California one so they can announced this

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Speaker 1: invention to the world, and um, they were like, hell, yeah,

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Speaker 1: everyone's gonna love this. But instead the NOW organizers were like,

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Speaker 1: this is a little bit much for a booth. I

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Speaker 1: don't think you can have a booth for an abortion here. Um,

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Speaker 1: And they're like, what does prevent structs? Right now? I'm

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Speaker 1: putting words in their mouth. But and so they put

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Speaker 1: up flyers saying, hey, come to our hotel room and

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Speaker 1: we'll show you how to use this device. And everyone

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Speaker 1: fucking loved it, right because it fucking ruled. And so

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Speaker 1: they gathered this list of names and they went on

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Speaker 1: this greyhound tour across the country giving presentations about the

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Speaker 1: del M. And I just love how like scrappy it

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Speaker 1: is that they like invent this thing that involves Mason

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Speaker 1: jars and they don't have a car, so they're just like, again,

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe a car, but they go on a

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Speaker 1: greyhound tour and that that rules. And Lorraine has a

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Speaker 1: quote from two thousand two that sums up the sort

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Speaker 1: of de medicalization approach that was popular with a lot

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Speaker 1: of the underground abortion access people before in n What

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Speaker 1: did women do before there were doctors. Let's stop the

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Speaker 1: humiliation of trying to persue aid the powers that be

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Speaker 1: to legalize abortion. Let's just take back the technology, the tools,

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Speaker 1: the skills, and the information to perform early abortions and

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Speaker 1: be in charge of our own reproduction. And once again,

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Speaker 1: you'll be shocked to know that this device is having

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Speaker 1: something of a comeback in the modern era. Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: And so Jane didn't use the Dell M specifically as

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Speaker 1: far as I can tell, but they did use the

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Speaker 1: Carmen canula extensively, and I think in generally in combination

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Speaker 1: with vacuum aspiration. They also, and this gets into the

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Speaker 1: sketchier side of some of it, they use another one

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Speaker 1: of Carmen's inventions that was a lot less successful. They

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Speaker 1: use something called the super coil. I'm actually curious if

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Speaker 1: you heard of this. I'm trying to figure out how

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Speaker 1: known this is. And I don't think so. But it's

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Speaker 1: one of those I'm like, as you describe it, I

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Speaker 1: may know of it. I'm not trying to put you

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Speaker 1: on the spot. Yeah, I'm trying to be like yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I'm sitting here like, Okay, We've gotten through several

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Speaker 1: devices and I think I'm glazed up. But yeah, you

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Speaker 1: going no, no, no, So the super coil is not

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Speaker 1: around today, um because it is a bad idea as

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Speaker 1: far as I can tell, and it was meant to

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Speaker 1: revolutionized second trimester abortion. Basically, he was like, I have

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Speaker 1: revolutionized first trimester abortion and made it easier for lay

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Speaker 1: people to do it. Now I want a revolutionary second

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Speaker 1: trimester abortion. And so the super coil involves coiling up

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Speaker 1: like like tightly coiled plastic rings basically attached to a

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Speaker 1: string that are inserted into the uterus and then left

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Speaker 1: to expand um so that they could be pulled out

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Speaker 1: and then clear out the area as they you know,

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Speaker 1: causing the I did not know what this is horrifying though, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I've had Sophie. Um. Yeah, so my

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Speaker 1: last interaction with Robert when Sophie was them talking about

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Speaker 1: a birth control that attached itself and tore out people's shooters.

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Speaker 1: So this is amazing. I feel like we've comfort circle.

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Speaker 1: We definitely have come full circle. That them on that

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Speaker 1: episode with Robert was like one of the like I

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Speaker 1: it like makes me itchy. I'm like it was so terrifying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I still see people post, but yeah, like that, we're

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Speaker 1: back here to something that goes out, expands and tries

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Speaker 1: to pull things out of people's vagina. So I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're back. We're back that certain things. Samantha, I love

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Speaker 1: me to dissociated with this. Let's keep going. This is amazing.

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm now like, yes, this is my world,

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Speaker 1: let's go. This is the This is the darkest chunk

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Speaker 1: of this episode. I believe even later they get arrested

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Speaker 1: and it's not as dark as this chunk. So they

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Speaker 1: helped Carmen test it. They sided with him in debates

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Speaker 1: to come, and they were probably wrong about it. It

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Speaker 1: was meant to help lay people provide abortions, but it

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Speaker 1: was it was probably too good to be true. Basically,

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Speaker 1: like they were. At least one person I read argued

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Speaker 1: that basically they were like sucked in by the idea

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Speaker 1: of like, oh, we have a nu miracle device. This

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Speaker 1: rules because they had just gotten a numerical device from

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Speaker 1: the same guy. Not numeracle but not number, but miracle

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Speaker 1: device that is new. Um. So he goes and tests it,

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Speaker 1: and he first tests it through and with international planned

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Speaker 1: parenthood in on Bangladeshi women at a large scale, and

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Speaker 1: it I'm not aware of it killing anyone, but it

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Speaker 1: did not do incredibly well. Uh, and there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of complications. I would say it sounds like I

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Speaker 1: could cause permanent damage, which is kind of the horror

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Speaker 1: stories people tell that our anti choice about the permanent damage,

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Speaker 1: and this seems to follow suit, because I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: something just at that point in time being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's self working. It just expands and grabs the right things,

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Speaker 1: but doesn't exactly. And Uh, there's a lot of different

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Speaker 1: arguments about or I've seen a couple of different things

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Speaker 1: about whether or not Jane was involved in using this

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Speaker 1: or testing this. I do believe they did use this

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Speaker 1: successfully for a number of abortions, and again, their overall

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Speaker 1: results were that they were as good as any medical

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Speaker 1: facility at that time. Right right, Um, But anyway, this

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Speaker 1: is a darker saying that they were involved in, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that makes me question did they give the

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Speaker 1: people who came in, the patients and clients a choice

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Speaker 1: on what kind of procedure they could have? Uh? And

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Speaker 1: I know they were pretty good about giving like risk

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Speaker 1: statistics and let them know aftercare and all of that.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if there was like a moment of like,

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Speaker 1: you have these options, now, which would you like to do?

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Speaker 1: I I would like to get off of them the

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Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt of that around that, But I

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Speaker 1: I don't know. And because I honestly did not know

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Speaker 1: this part of this history, I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's a little alarming. You don't want to start

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Speaker 1: testing things. And when you have someone testing on a

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Speaker 1: different group of people, you know it's probably not good,

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Speaker 1: which is the history of all medicine essentially. But you know,

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Speaker 1: that's a whole different rabbit hole that I will not

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Speaker 1: do as a negative Nelly moment though. No, No, I

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Speaker 1: mean like, and this is like, this is the most

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Speaker 1: warts and all that I'm going to get around this,

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Speaker 1: and even this is like a complicated thing. Um. You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I read one of the

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Speaker 1: black women who volunteered for this was like basically defended

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Speaker 1: her position being like I'm paraphrasing, but like if I'm

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Speaker 1: kidding me saying that I can't consent to this just

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Speaker 1: because I'm a black woman, you know. And so there's

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Speaker 1: this like I'm reading biased reports, right, I'm reading people

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Speaker 1: who are trying to make positions to either claim that

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Speaker 1: this was this terrible thing that people did or this brilliant,

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Speaker 1: brave thing that people did. And I don't have anything

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Speaker 1: near the right position to understand what isn't is an't

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Speaker 1: ethical for for what happened here, and like what level

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Speaker 1: of informed consent was available? Um, but I'm also under

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Speaker 1: the impression that a lot of their other options were worse, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: So we come back to the fact that there's so

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Speaker 1: many things that pushes people to a certain point, and

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Speaker 1: when it's not accessible and it becomes looked out as

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Speaker 1: again unlawful, then people are pushed to the point that

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Speaker 1: is is extreme. So you do what you can, and

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Speaker 1: people being in that point, we are going to choose

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Speaker 1: what they think is lesser evil for them. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's not the case like that he shouldn't have to

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Speaker 1: be even that conversation. Yeah, totally, And and so as

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Speaker 1: a Carmen. He kind of disappears after this whole fiasco.

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Speaker 1: He's like, I try to invent a thing and it

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Speaker 1: didn't work, and he kind of his trub was called.

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Speaker 1: At least from my my sloping at this point, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a medical doctor, right, You're saying that he's either

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe in psychology, but also maybe just theater, Like

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Speaker 1: he just did a thing. However, as as a different

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Speaker 1: states would legalize abortion, he was so well known that

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Speaker 1: he would be invited to come participate in legal abortion

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Speaker 1: areas because he was a really experienced abortionist. Um, but

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Speaker 1: that also empowered him to do all of these things

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Speaker 1: that a real messy and so it's just like kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting that like this is the person who did

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Speaker 1: the thing that got safe first trimester abortions available, you know,

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Speaker 1: um right, I mean some good did come of it, right,

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Speaker 1: and now we have chemical abortions for first foremaster that

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Speaker 1: are are safer and better than this method is as

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Speaker 1: far as I understand the circumstances, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: There's so many things to this in this conversation about

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Speaker 1: what this looks like when it is not considered healthcare

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Speaker 1: and why it's so blase, and yet some good did

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Speaker 1: come of it, but some bad to come of it.

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Speaker 1: And then there's this need of like understanding it is healthcare. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: totally okay, But but who is cool? Yes, I will,

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Speaker 1: I will go on. I don't know him to say,

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Speaker 1: is another abortionist to popularize some ship that Jane wound

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Speaker 1: up using a guy named Robert Spencer. And Robert spend

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Speaker 1: who was a true believer and he was not a grifter.

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Speaker 1: He was a doctor and actual medical doctor and the

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Speaker 1: coal fields in Ashland, Pennsylvania, and he cut his doctor

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Speaker 1: in teeth inventing new ways to treat black lung and

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Speaker 1: coal miners um, including a lot of pioneering work and

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Speaker 1: I don't know a pronounce this where broncos scopy, bronchios

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Speaker 1: is taking cameras down people's throats, I don't know, looking

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Speaker 1: at people's throats, and and and he did experiment with

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Speaker 1: black lung. But this is also a situation where like, oh,

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Speaker 1: these coal miners are dying and no one here is

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Speaker 1: like paying attention to black lung except me. And so

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Speaker 1: he's very well liked, this doctor in this town. And

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Speaker 1: then sometime in the early twenties he starts a coal

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Speaker 1: miner's wife is like, Yo, I'm pregnant. I'd really rather

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Speaker 1: not be uh, And I tried calling Jane, but the

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Speaker 1: number is an active yet or something. I'm like forty

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Speaker 1: years too early. So he um, he performs an abortion,

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Speaker 1: and then he just starts performing abortions in this town.

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Speaker 1: And he single handedly performs something like forty thousand abortions. Um.

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Speaker 1: He died in nineteen sixty nine before his work could

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Speaker 1: become legal, and his wife burned all of his records.

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Speaker 1: I guess to either protect his legacy or maybe his

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Speaker 1: staff or maybe herself. I don't know. And he uh. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: the entire town's economy, like huge chunk of the town's

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Speaker 1: economy relies on this guy because people are coming from

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Speaker 1: all over the place to get abortions here, and they

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Speaker 1: like staying at hotels and ship but the hotels didn't

380
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Speaker 1: some of the hotels at least didn't let black patients stay.

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Speaker 1: So he built accommodations so that black patients could still

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Speaker 1: come and get abortions in this town. He was arrested

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Speaker 1: three times for providing abortions. One of the times he

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Speaker 1: was arrested at least was because a patient died. Um,

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Speaker 1: they died from anesthesia problems. And you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: a doctor. I know that anesthesia is a complicated thing,

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Speaker 1: especially eighty years ago. You know, I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: like lay judgment on him for this, but he was

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Speaker 1: acquitted two of the times he was arrested, um, because

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Speaker 1: I think everyone in town was like, you can't convict

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Speaker 1: this guy. What are you what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: Like this is a guy like this guy were like

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Speaker 1: abortion yeah yeah, and like um, and he also had

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Speaker 1: union protection. The United Mine Workers had his back, okay, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they're like union miners did not funk around back

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Speaker 1: then as our boy, don't touch you. Yeah. And his

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Speaker 1: quote about why he why people liked him. I've been

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Speaker 1: here since nineteen nineteen. I dare say I've helped out

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Speaker 1: half the town, even on the abortion end. There's probably

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Speaker 1: one of my patients related to a family in half

401
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Speaker 1: the town. I think most of the town would stand

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Speaker 1: up for me. That's just like I think they would

403
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Speaker 1: stay up at me. I think I think we're cool. Yeah.

404
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,880
Speaker 1: And so he's seventy nine years old. He keeps going

405
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: into retirement and then coming out of retirement. Because people

406
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: need his help, right, because he's really fucking good at

407
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Speaker 1: his job, and he provides abortions for cheap And I'll

408
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 1: get to that. Um. And he's seventy nine and he's

409
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 1: on he's waiting awaiting trial for a third time, and

410
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Speaker 1: he dies of old age while like actively practicing. And

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Speaker 1: he was performing three to four abortions a day right

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Speaker 1: up to the end. Um. There's this whole article from

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Speaker 1: Village Voice from nine I think it's called the Death

414
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Speaker 1: of an Abortionist, and it's a journalist who travels down

415
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Speaker 1: there to basically just to meet him, just to be like,

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Speaker 1: you are amazing. You are the reason that people feel safe,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um. And he charged the cheapest rates, some

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Speaker 1: of the cheapest rates of anyone. His first abortions cost

419
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Speaker 1: five dollars, and then there's the cost of drugs, and

420
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 1: overhead went up. At the end. He was charging two

421
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Speaker 1: hundred dollars in the late sixties, but again most abortions

422
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 1: were costing six hundred to two thousand dollars. He was

423
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: this like lovable weirdo. He treated everyone kindly. He covered

424
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 1: his office and like weird weird plaques from tourist traps

425
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Speaker 1: and the Village Voice journalist who showed up. She asks him, like,

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Speaker 1: why did you perform abortions when the people first asked you?

427
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: And he said, because I could see their point of view? Mhm,

428
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 1: And I just I love that as an answer, you know, um,

429
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: just like basic human empathy. And his name never really

430
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: appeared until he died. His name like didn't really appear

431
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 1: much in print. I think one place Dockston or whatever,

432
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: but he was always just printed as the legendary doctor

433
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: s and okay. And he popularized a technique or using

434
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: something called I don't pronounce this word loundbacks paste loan

435
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 1: backs paste two to help dilate the cervix. It's like

436
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 1: a soft soap um is not currently in use, but

437
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: but Jane used it and was very glad for it.

438
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: It helped make their whole anesthesia process much safer. And

439
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: they I don't know whether they made their own or

440
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: got it from Robert Spencer, because Robert Senser was making

441
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 1: his own because it was no longer commercially available. I

442
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: don't know. I think he's cool too, and I really

443
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: like that Jane was building from this was part of

444
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: this larger framework of people who were like, how do

445
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: we do this like absence of like the medical industry,

446
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: how do we actually like figure out how to do

447
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 1: this safely and well? Right? Actually caring about their patients.

448
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: That's revolutionary. Yeah, totally. God, I wish I wish that revolution.

449
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: It's stuck. Yeah, you know who does care about their patients?

450
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: I'm ready. Well, potatoes, I've been I've been trying to

451
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: get advertised by potatoes. I don't know how potatoes have

452
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: become doctors, but I think potatoes are great. And um,

453
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: I want to be sponsored by entirely wholesome things. So

454
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: if you hear anything unwholesome in the ads, that was

455
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: a mistake. It's Robert's fault. It's Robert's fault. Agreed. Yeah,

456
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: And so here's some ads for potatoes and maybe some

457
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: other stuff. And we're back and we're discussing whether or

458
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: not we should actually expand our list of sponsors to

459
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 1: include kittens. I mean, I think, I think yes, I

460
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: mean it's good to diversify. I mean, I think it's

461
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: important that we talk about kittens, and right, I think

462
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: so we just have to make clear that we're advertising

463
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: the concept of kittens and puppies, not the people who

464
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: tradition really go about selling kittens and puppies. Yes, yes,

465
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: it's very clear. Not not a kitten mill or puppy

466
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: bill type situation. Rescue is the idea of just cuddling

467
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: with some kittens or cuddling with a dog maybe, or

468
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: at least looking at cute pictures. Yeah, while one kitten

469
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: is in one arm and one puppy is in the

470
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: other armaid when kittens and dogs are friends, Yeah, totally.

471
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: I can't wait to introduce my dog to more cuts.

472
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: It's actually never gone. Well, so I actually my dog

473
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: does not love cats either. My dog loves the castle,

474
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: love the dog, that's fair. He does not know how

475
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: to play. So so I want to quote a little

476
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 1: bit at length from why Jane Collective did this work.

477
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: It's from a statement about why they did is a

478
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 1: pamphlet that they gave to prospective clients. Abortion as a

479
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: social problem. We are giving our time not only because

480
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: we want to make abortions safer, cheaper, and more accessible

481
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: for the individual women who come to us, but because

482
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: we see the whole abortion issue as a problem of society.

483
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: The current abortion laws are a symbol of something subtle

484
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: but often blatant oppression of women in our society. Women

485
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: should have the right to control their own bodies and lives.

486
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: Only a woman who is pregnant can determine whether or

487
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,959
Speaker 1: not she has enough resources economic, physical, and emotional at

488
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: a given time to bear and rear child. Yet at present,

489
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,959
Speaker 1: the decision to bear the child or to have an

490
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: abortion is taken out of her hands by government bodies,

491
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: which can have only the slightest notion of the problems involved.

492
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: The same society that glamorizes women as sex objects and

493
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: teaches them from an early childhood to please and satisfy men,

494
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: views pregnancy and childbirth as punishment for immoral or careless

495
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: sexual activity, especially if the woman is uneducated, poor, or black.

496
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: Our society's view of equal opportunity means that lower class

497
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 1: women bear unwanted children or face expensive, illegal, and often

498
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: unsafe abortions, while well connected, middle class women can frequently

499
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: get safe and hush hush d n c s and hospitals.

500
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: Only women can bring about their own liberation. It is

501
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: time for women to get together to change the male

502
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: made laws and aid their sisters caught in the bind

503
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: of legal restrictions and social stigma. Women must fight together

504
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: to change the attitudes of society about abortion and to

505
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: make the state provide free abortions as a human right.

506
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: I like that. I like that. There's so many things

507
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: that like it just applies today. I know we're talking

508
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: about that, but m but the problem is because it

509
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: is women centered typically, and especially during that time, people

510
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: see that as being a less important in conversation has become.

511
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: It made it a moral ground even though it's very

512
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: political obviously. But yeah, I do love I do love

513
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: that sentiment and and we still need that sentiment. Yeah, No,

514
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: I I like like sometimes when I get lost in

515
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: the weeds about like this is how they did this

516
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: one thing, and this is how they did this other thing.

517
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: And then instead of just kind of like here's like

518
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: a hundred people who got together to commit felonies to

519
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: try and keep people safe, it's just like that's always cool,

520
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: you know, like like and there's always something I don't know,

521
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: So I like hearing the the why they did it.

522
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: But speaking of felonies, this is not an ad transition.

523
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm not advertising felonies on the I'm probably advertising felonies

524
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: on this show, but not from the point of view

525
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: of a sponsorship not trying to get money for it. Yeah,

526
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: well you gotta go and get them your own money,

527
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. So, so Jane is this big open

528
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: secret and everyone knows about it. They advertised and they

529
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: had security procedures in place, but clearly the police knew

530
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: about them, And most of the reporting about Jane basically

531
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: says the cops didn't bust them because the cops kind

532
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: of liked them. They were clean and safe and no

533
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: one was dying, so so why bust them? Right? To me,

534
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: this this fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the police, especially

535
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: the Chicago Police Department. In a nation of corrupt police

536
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: department's Chicago like consistently stands out as one of the crookedest.

537
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,479
Speaker 1: And the other thing you hear is that police put

538
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: up with it because the wives of police and the

539
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: wives of politicians were amongst their clients. And this feels

540
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: more plausible to me. But I suspect that politicians wives

541
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: at least could afford a trip to New York, and

542
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: so I feel like there's some kind of like. To

543
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: be clear, I think crime is cool. But the same

544
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: accounts also say that mafia didn't come after them for

545
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: similar reasons. They're like, oh, well, they're not really making

546
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: a profit, so why would the mafia care? And this

547
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like if that doesn't sound like the police,

548
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: and that doesn't sound like the mafia. Um, So this

549
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: is amazing, all of this, all of this moment is amazing.

550
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm just I'm enjoying this entire thing, all right.

551
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: And the other part of this is because they don't

552
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: see this as an issue for them, because at that

553
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: point in time, I think the majority of the police

554
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 1: were men. Yeah, just speaking those it was a woman's things.

555
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: Also kind of the same level of like not talking

556
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: about periods and being shameful about women's bodies. So it

557
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: was we're going to pretend that you don't exist because

558
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: it's easier for us to you ikey, even though I

559
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: mean to be frank, the majority of the times kind

560
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: of like today when we talk about abortion, uh and

561
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: abortion rights and abortion being healthcare, men typically outside of

562
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: the morally loud like this isn't just whatever, I just

563
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: don't care because it has nothing to do with them,

564
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: and it's just gross and it's like, uh, it's women's issues,

565
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: so would rather just ignore it and doesn't think it's

566
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: necessarily important. Of course we've got the religious bits. Yeah, no,

567
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: this is actually it is actually that helps sell me

568
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: on it better because like all I can see, I

569
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: am again really not trying to accuse anyone who might

570
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: be alive of any kind of crime, but it seems

571
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: like the mafia might have been getting a share out

572
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: of this. I don't know again, like no judgment of

573
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: what are people need to do to keep keep the

574
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: ship running? But but yeah, because because everyone knows about

575
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: this and no one's doing anything about it. But but

576
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: the thing you're saying and also about like basically people

577
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: being like we're just not gonna touch it is also

578
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: completely possible. Um. And then the way it all falls apart, well,

579
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't actually really fall apart. The way that some

580
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: people get in trouble can be told a couple different

581
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: ways of run across one probable story and then one

582
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: maybe story. One day in three a Catholic woman comes

583
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: to get an abortion, and at the time I actually

584
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: behind the Bastards did a better podcast. But this never

585
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: remember exactly when the Protestants started carying about abortion, but

586
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: for a while, like only the Catholics cared. Catholic woman

587
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: comes in to get an abortion, and she was a

588
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: mixed minds the whole about the whole thing. A Jane

589
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: volunteer named Jeannie Galatz or Levy spent a long time

590
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: talking with her about it and like counseling her, and

591
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: later she's really bitter about the long time she spent

592
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: talking to her about it. Her sister in law, the

593
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: patient's sister in law, was there with her, and her

594
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: sister in law called them in, And what I've heard

595
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: is that she didn't call him into the police station

596
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: like in the district where they like seeing as friendly,

597
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: but instead called them into a different district, and so

598
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: subtly bad things happen. But that's that's that's the story

599
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: I hear most often told. Another account is that the

600
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: anti abortion lobby was trying to get some arrests in

601
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: to do some damage on the legal front because Supreme

602
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: Court was about to see Roe v. Wade and which

603
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: spoiler alert legalized abortion federally across the U. S and

604
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: a seven to two ruling, So maybe someone wanted to

605
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: get some abortionists on trial and hurry. And then there's

606
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,719
Speaker 1: a third story which comes from the person who's very

607
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: critical of their super coil testing, that the bust happened

608
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: on a day that they were planning on doing super

609
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: coil testing, and that it was like related to all

610
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: of that. I tend to believe that the Catholic story best,

611
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: but I feel like there's something I actually don't believe

612
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: any of these stories. Frankly, that's what I I don't

613
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: know what it is. Yeah, we just know that they

614
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: got rated, and we don't know how it began. But yeah,

615
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: it could be any of the stories. But that's the

616
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: one I've heard too, is the Catholic Catholic women have

617
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: accorded them, but any physical reason. Again, it was coincidentally

618
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: around and I will use a quotes more coincidentally around

619
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: uh ro versus Wade and then the big backlash and

620
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: back and forth and controversy with that. So yeah, yeah, yeah,

621
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: I think I would. I would put the most likely

622
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: is the combination of the first two things. Is the

623
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: Catholic woman and um and some people trying to get

624
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: some shipped on going on. I don't know, but yeah,

625
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: they get rated um May Third two, Genie is working

626
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: at the front and she's caring for three children left

627
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: behind by a patient. When she hears a knock at

628
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: the door. She thought it was another Jane who had

629
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: just like dropped off some snacks, come back to to

630
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: drop off more snacks, or maybe forgot something or something,

631
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: and instead it was cops, really really tall cops. Genie

632
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: is like let them in and told everyone in the

633
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: waiting room, these are the police. You don't have to

634
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: tell them anything. And then Genie, describing the event, says,

635
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: they were really tall, really weird. I developed this whole theory.

636
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: I love crackpot theories. I intend to be a crack

637
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: pot when I grow up. This is Genie, not me,

638
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: although it is also true of me. I love no

639
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: I know, yeah yeah, yeah quote. I intend to be

640
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: a crack pot when I grow up. My theory is

641
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: that you had to be really tall to be a

642
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: homicide cop. These were homicide cops because abortion was a homicide,

643
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: and they were homicide cops who hated being there. You know,

644
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: it's not easy to make homicide detective. You have to

645
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: be really good. It's not even political, like taking the

646
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: sergeant's exam. You have to really do something, and they

647
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: do it because they want to. And by and large,

648
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: what they do is track people down who kill other people.

649
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: And they think of themselves as good guys and they

650
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: hated being there. This was not their kind of crime.

651
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: End quote. That is an interesting theory. I really like,

652
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: there's so many observations about just the male appearance, that

653
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: these characters are so like that they're all tall, very

654
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: tall though I know right all the all the cops

655
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: are like five ft seven, you know, right average, but

656
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: they're tall because I'm four ft totally, or maybe they

657
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: like sent there like there are three people who are

658
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: you know, six ft six over to go arrest everyone?

659
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: Um uh. And so they detain everyone at the front

660
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: and they started asking everyone questions. And the way they

661
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: figured out who the Jains were, apparently is that when

662
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: they asked the James questions, the James refused to answer.

663
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: And while this did get them separated out for arrest,

664
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: it it probably saved them later in court, or at

665
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: least it was very helpful in court. Their lawyer later

666
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: thanked them, was like, I'm so glad you all didn't

667
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 1: say anything, right And patients, though, were asked all kinds

668
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: of questions and they largely answered. One question that left

669
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: the cops completely confused was they kept asking how much

670
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: the Jans charged, and everyone gave wildly different answers. The

671
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: police came, I guess, maybe expecting a mafia style for

672
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: profit enterprise, and they didn't find one. And at the

673
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: same time, the cops arrived at the place and arrest

674
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: everyone there. And apparently they showed up and they were like,

675
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: where are all the men? Though, you know who's doing

676
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: the abortions, right, And so I guess they actually really

677
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: didn't know Jane inside it out, you know, if they

678
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: think all these things, um and so at least they

679
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: probably weren't infiltrated, right, if this is what the cops

680
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: think and spies. Yeah, I did to think that, like

681
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: the cops know everything, right, because we talked about how

682
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: we live in a pen opticon and we're all being

683
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 1: studied all the time or whatever, and then like every

684
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: now and then the cops are just like, they don't

685
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: know ship. I want to tell a completely off based

686
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: story about all of this. Right, one time, my friend

687
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: was being um investigated as the leader of international anarchism

688
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: by the FEDS and never mind, I'm not going to

689
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: tell that story, Okay, So um, there's so many levels

690
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: of understanding why I'm like, yeah, I have I have

691
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: a cookie cutter, vani little life. And I'm really sad

692
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: that I'm not a part of this. I don't want

693
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: to be investigated because I do not have the anxiety

694
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: to go through an investor. But just knowing someone, I'm like, yeah,

695
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: they are. Yeah. Well the spoiler there is no leader

696
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: of international anarchism. It goes against the whole idea. And

697
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: eventually Defense figured that out. But the more personal details

698
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: about it, I'm not going to get into. You're not

699
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: You're not gonna do that, okay, yeah, but so okay,

700
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: So they're all thrown into patty wagons. They're taken off

701
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: to jail, and Genie says that, Um, when they were

702
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: taking off to jail in the patty wagon, all the

703
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: all the other women in the in the patty wagon

704
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: sex workers who kept everyone in good spirits by just

705
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: like telling fun horrible stories about their lives or whatever. Um,

706
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: and I really like that they were there to keep

707
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: everyone's um spirits up. And then in the pattiwagon, the

708
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: Jains all pulled out all the index cards with all

709
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: of the patient info and ship and they ripped them

710
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: up in the little pieces, passed them out and ate them,

711
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: which is great badass, and they only spent one night

712
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: in jail, probably because their middle class white women. Uh

713
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: one of them, I think one of them, who was

714
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: a nursing mother, was let go that night because she

715
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: had to go home and feed her kids. Uh. And

716
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: Jeannie talks about how the cops like treated them all

717
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: well as fellow middle class white people while being rude

718
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: to any of the patients who ended up in jail

719
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: and all the other people and all the other women

720
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: in jail, which yeah, I guess doesn't really surprise anyone

721
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: who's listening to us. But in jail, they all all

722
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: the only food they got offered was Bologney sandwiches, which

723
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: which Jeannie couldn't eat, presumably because she was vegetarian. And

724
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: the reason that I include this is because one time

725
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: I was arrested at this anti IMF demonstration in d C,

726
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 1: thirty years after all this ship and two thousand two,

727
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: and they gave us all bologna sandwiches and we all

728
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: just like sat there and like laughed at or bologna

729
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: sandwiches because we were all fucking like vegans and vegetarians

730
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: and Ship, We're like, what are we gonna do with this? Um?

731
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: And it was it was mostly a bad experience. But

732
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: I was only in jail for like thirty six hours.

733
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: Um uh, possibly because I'm middle class and white and

734
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, so I didn't get to eat in

735
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: jail and sucked. But whatever. I just like that this

736
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: has been like a true thing forever. Is that like

737
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: when hippies and activists and ship get arrested, they're like,

738
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: what funk am I gonna do this? A bologna sandwich? Um?

739
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: So they get let out on bail. Uh, And they're

740
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: each facing a hundred and ten years because the eleven

741
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: counts of homicide and conspiracy to commit homicide in the

742
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: case that will be known as the Abortion seven. And

743
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: at least according to Genie, Jane kind of distances themselves

744
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: at this point from them and they, I guess, like

745
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 1: as like they were like, oh, it's the strategic necessity,

746
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: We're going to keep going. And Jane did keep going

747
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 1: while the trial was ongoing. But it still doesn't sound

748
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: good to me, honestly, um and Genie at least felt

749
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: really betrayed. According to the interview I read with her,

750
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: the rest of the feminist movement kind of though had

751
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: her back. Um there was a defense committee formed with

752
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: the sick name of the Abortion Task Force the a

753
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: t F, and several of the arrestees were part of

754
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: an organization called Leche League, which is a pro nursing organization. Nursing,

755
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: I guess was out of style at the time, and

756
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: le had their back, which fucking rules that the like

757
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: the Mother's Association was like, yeah, of course we're defending

758
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: these abortionists, you know. Um, And I don't really know

759
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: what the distancing looked like because several the Abortion seven

760
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: actually went back to work for Jane while they were

761
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: out on bail, which is also fucking badass, and they

762
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: spent a while finding lawyer. Most of the lawyers they

763
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: found were terrible. One guy was very movement focused and

764
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: wanted them to basically go to prison. Was like, yeah,

765
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: you're gonna be martyrs for the cause, you know, And

766
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: they're like, we don't like that very much. This is

767
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: not actually their plan um And so finally they settled

768
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: on Joeann Wolfson, who one to count calls the Queen

769
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: of the Hopeless, and she once ran away from home

770
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: to join the circus and like work with elephants and ship. Okay,

771
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: so her brother was an attorney to who once got

772
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: sentenced to seventy years in prison in after pleading guilty

773
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: to racketeering in an anti corruption case in Chicago. That's

774
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: all a ton of the judges, lawyers and cops sent

775
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: away for organized crime ship. So mafia and corruption ship

776
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: just runs deep. And anyway, so this is their lawyer

777
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: and she is the what I do know about her,

778
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: She was the right lawyer for the job, and she rules. Um,

779
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: she saw rov Wade on the horizon and she was like,

780
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: all right, here's the plan. Let's delay this ship as

781
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: long as possible. And the court was fine with that

782
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: plan too, because frankly, they saw the writing on the

783
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: wall and they didn't want to waste court resources on it.

784
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: So in January, the Supreme Court decided that the Fourteenth

785
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: Amendments guarantee the right to privacy included the right to

786
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: have abortions and a very I had my lawyer friend

787
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: try and explain this whole thing to me recently, and

788
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade is like complicated as a from a

789
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: legal perspective, but it worked for now for good. We'll

790
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: see maybe, but time you're listening to this anyway. Whatever,

791
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: So prosecutors knew if they wanted, they could come after

792
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: them for practicing medicine without a license, but they decided

793
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: was more trouble than it was worth, and they really

794
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: just didn't want to make a fuss out of it.

795
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: That said, also, my lawyer friend was explaining to me

796
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: that most Supreme Court decisions are not retroactive. But basically

797
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: they're like this ship. As far as I can tell,

798
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: they're like, this ship is way too political. We don't

799
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: want to touch this case. So they made the cut

800
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: of deal. We don't charge you with practicing medicine without

801
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 1: a license, you don't ask for your medical equipment back,

802
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: and the Jane seven said, oh my god, yes please.

803
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: They took their deal and the charges were dropped. The

804
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 1: end of Jane. That's the name of my little section

805
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: in the script. Rovi Wade fucking rules, and I don't

806
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: want to pretend like it doesn't. The fact that it's

807
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: under threat is fucking bad. You know. I hope that

808
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 1: this doesn't sound like we're talking from distant utopian past

809
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: when you all hear this episode come come out, because

810
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: this episode will probably come out about a month after

811
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: we record it. But it's it's not enough, and that

812
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: the women of Jane knew that right. Because abortion was legalized,

813
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: but it was also re medicalized. It went back in

814
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: the hands of mail doctors. It became it tied once

815
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: again into an inaccessible medical system that treats women like

816
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: bodies like cars to be fixed. Jane actually continued for

817
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: a few weeks after the ruling, but everyone was just

818
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: so fucking exhausted and burned out and the fire was gone.

819
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: And ironically they were afraid that they might catch charges

820
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: for because the for profit medical industry might lead the

821
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: charge for on them for practicing medicine without a license.

822
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: They threw a funcket We're done now party, and and

823
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: Jane was over after their funcket We're done now party,

824
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: which is the way I'm praising it. And people miss

825
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: the intensity of it. Jane activists Ruth Sergill put it

826
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: like this. For the people I know, it was the

827
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: single most intense period of our life. And when it stopped,

828
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: there was something missing, and you couldn't find anything to

829
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: do that carried quite that energy for a long time.

830
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: But you know what does carry energy is potatoes. And

831
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: you should eat food of some type, whatever type you like.

832
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: But it is healthy and good and that's why we

833
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: advertise it on this show. The concept of potatoes. Yeah,

834
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: all potatoes. All potatoes are great as well as whatever

835
00:43:52,760 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 1: is that being advertised. And we are back and so

836
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: this this intensity leaving, uh, it's something that I think

837
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 1: is familiar to a lot of people are involved in activism,

838
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: especially like more intense activism. I'm guessing that anyone who

839
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: was radicalized by the demonstrations has has felt this when

840
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 1: you leave this moment of intensity, But people keep going right. TRM. Howard,

841
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: the black civil rights leader who is the first abortionist

842
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: the network called. He kept providing abortions now legally and

843
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: his his private black owned practice offered abortions for fifty

844
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: dollars less than what local hospitals charged. The Defense Committee

845
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: with that sick name, the A t F. They switched to,

846
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: becoming a new group that also had a sick name,

847
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: Health Evaluation and Referral Services HERS. It's a shitty name,

848
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: but it's a great acronym. And I feel like they really,

849
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 1: I don't know, they started off with not strong naming game,

850
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: but I think that they over the course of time

851
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: they figured it out again. There yeah, so so hers

852
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: and Heather Booth, Jamee's founder. They went on to start

853
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: the Chicago Abortion Fund in Chicago, which is a nonp

854
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: fit that is still around today and it's a simple, clean,

855
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: honest name that does what it says on the tin.

856
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: And as the host of Cool People did Cool stuff,

857
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: I appreciate a thing that just does what it says

858
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 1: on the tin. So I want to talk about some

859
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: of the other direct action abortionists who have who have

860
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: come since, because this need continues right and there are

861
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: there are millions of people who have done this kind

862
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: of work. Probably as long as there's been legal restrictions

863
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: on abortion, there have been people fighting against it. You

864
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: talked about some of them actually at the beginning of

865
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: the show, and I'm hoping you chime in with more

866
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 1: of them as I as I go through some of

867
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: these um and I want to do more episodes about

868
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: more of these people, or I think people can listen

869
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,439
Speaker 1: to other podcasts that talk about it too. Um Yeah,

870
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: So normally a stick with people in the past for

871
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: this show, but this issue just feels too important to

872
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: me right now to not include some of these. So

873
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: there's Women on Waves, which is a Dutch organization that

874
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: was started by the physician Rebecca Gonpert, and she used

875
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: to be the ship's doctor aboard a green piece ship

876
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: and she was like, oh, boats are fucking cool, which

877
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: is my paraphrasing, not a direct quote. So she got

878
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: a boat and she headed out to various countries with

879
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: active abortion practices. She loads up patients on shore heads

880
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: twenty miles out to sea. And since it's Dutch ship,

881
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: Dutch laws and effect, though even the Dutch are a

882
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: little wary about the whole thing. And the ship is

883
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: only authorized to provide the abortion pill uh, non surgical

884
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: abortions to pregnancies up to nine weeks. And they don't

885
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: just provide abortions, they provide education, contraception and education. And

886
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: the first place they go is Ireland, because, um, you

887
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: don't have to go very far from the Netherlands to

888
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: go to a country that had terrible abortion laws in

889
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: two thousand one. Ironically, Ireland is liberalizing as abortion laws

890
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,959
Speaker 1: just as the US is regressing. And this this boat

891
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: is super contentious. And also it's contentious when you tell

892
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: people who have ships that they're called boats, because they

893
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: don't like that. Um, they like to be like, this

894
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: is a ship not a boat, but I think it's

895
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: funny because boat is a cuter name. So Portugal blocks

896
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: women on waves from approaching with a fucking warship. And

897
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 1: then in Guatemala they make it less than a day

898
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 1: before a warship comes and pushes them out to sea.

899
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: And oh and then you actually we talking about Poland

900
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: earlier women on way this once fluid drone carrying abortion

901
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: pills into Germany from Poland. In case anyone needs any ideas,

902
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: um and Rebecca Gomperts goes on in to form a

903
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 1: nonprofit called aid Access that focuses on helping pregnant people

904
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: self managed their own abortions with abortion pills, which are

905
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 1: generally a combination of I don't know how to pronounce

906
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 1: these words. I'm terribly sorry, Maybe you do, myfi press

907
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: stone and my supposed at all. These are the primary

908
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: abortion pills that people are taking right now to end

909
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: first trimester abortions and sending them through the mail in

910
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: the US and to other countries that are increasingly criminalizing abortion.

911
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: And they feelded about fift requests in the first year

912
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: that they were operational. At least one organization is bulletproofing

913
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: vans getting ready to help people safely leave Texas to

914
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: get to states where they can get the healthcare they need.

915
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: They're like part getting ready to park the van's right

916
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: outside the border of Texas. And and frankly, what isn't

917
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: isn't legal doesn't dictate what is and isn't safe. Right.

918
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: During the fifty years we've had Roe v. Wade in

919
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: the US, abortion workers have regularly risks and sometimes lost

920
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: their lives in order to help people terminate on wanted pregnancies. Receptionists,

921
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: security guards, and clinic escorts have all been murdered, kidnaps,

922
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: attack threatened, you name it. Um. And one of the

923
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: reasons I bring that up, I hate ending on this

924
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,479
Speaker 1: kind of darker note, But the one of the reasons

925
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: I bring that up is because we can have this

926
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: concept that direct action abortion can only happen when it's illegal,

927
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: and that's just not true. Um. Like, I don't know.

928
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: In one southern city I lived in, there were for

929
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: years there were no clinic escorts because the people, um,

930
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: and clinic escorts for anyone who doesn't know, are the

931
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: people who wait outside a clinic and shield patients from

932
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: the abuse from anti choice protesters. And there are no

933
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: clinic escorts in this town because all the escorts have

934
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: been followed home and had their windows shot out. And

935
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: and my sister does clinic escorting, and I just want

936
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: to shout her out. She's a direct action hero from

937
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: my point of view, even if what she's doing is legal,

938
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, totally. I only did it once. It

939
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 1: was a long time ago in Louisville, Kentucky and base

940
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: sickly as I understood it, I was told by the

941
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 1: punks in town. They were like, the anti choice protesters

942
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: here are like really scary, so they want the scary

943
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: punks to come be the clinic escorts, you know, because

944
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: like normally, if you don't have really bad protesters, you

945
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: kind of don't want the scary people to come to

946
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,280
Speaker 1: like help escort people in. But when people are really threatening,

947
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: then you call the really threatening looking people. Which when

948
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: I was twenty, I was a very threatening looking person

949
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: just by being a punk. Um. I love it. I

950
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: love the best the threat punk that's right, come here. Yeah.

951
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: And we were all like full of ourselves, like twenty

952
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 1: year old anarchists who are like we'll do anything, you know. Um,

953
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 1: And the world needs lots of angry twenty year olds. Also,

954
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: unfortunately it also needs a lot of the angry twenty

955
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: year olds to stop. It depends on what they're angry about, really, right,

956
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: I mean just a reminder, I mean, I just want

957
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: to put this also sad little fact in here. Even

958
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: after a Road versus Weight in the Supreme Court in

959
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: ninety seven, we had the High Amendment which is in

960
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: place and has never gone away um, which acts restricts

961
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 1: funds UH for health care and access, which means pretty

962
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: much the it's a very classist and racist amendment making

963
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: sure those who really probably are the ones that need

964
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: it and need this help and need this choice, are

965
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: the ones that can't get access to safe abortion and

966
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 1: safe reproductive care in general. And then that has always

967
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 1: been in place, and it has not been removed, and

968
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: it has not even come close to being removed, and

969
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,240
Speaker 1: could have been and should have been by some administrations.

970
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: But that's something to remember too. Yeah, but that's part

971
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,919
Speaker 1: of the problem is we have other things that yeah, sure,

972
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 1: now we are supposedly yeah, we supposedly have the right

973
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: to do so, but we don't have access to do so.

974
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: And that's a conversation we need to have in pretending

975
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: like it's actually free and it's not or not actually free,

976
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: that is actually accessible and it's not, and and who

977
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 1: that truly affects and why it's such a bigger conversation,

978
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: as well as the fact that the gag rule exists,

979
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: which uh, Title ten came in trying to help out

980
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: to get those funds, and then we have the gag

981
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: rules saying like, well, no, I guess individuals can choose this.

982
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: So it gets so convoluted and there's so many policies

983
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: and amendments on top of each each other that it

984
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: becomes almost impossible to know what is accessible in what

985
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: is legal. And yeah, just because it's not legal doesn't

986
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: mean you can't get it or you should be. But

987
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: like that's this whole whole conversation in this bigger picture

988
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: of like we're coming coming back to the basics. Unfortunately,

989
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 1: but we because we were never unable to unravel the

990
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: details that really, uh find us for those who want

991
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: to get that ability to just have a choice. And again,

992
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 1: reproductive care is not just an abortion. Like there's just

993
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: a whole bigger conversation. Once again, the fact that the

994
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,399
Speaker 1: cob will city for black women, it's higher like, it's

995
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: just there's so many conversations and what these policies are

996
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: and who they truly affect, and why these policies are

997
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: in place. It's supremacy, patriarchy, those things. The reason we

998
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: keep harping on these two were these three words, and

999
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: people get piste off about it because it's true. There's

1000
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: no other I'm sorry, I'm sorry it bothers you, and

1001
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: that you've been benefiting from that. Fuck you is still true. No,

1002
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: I ran finished, No, no, no, I incredibly, this is

1003
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: part of why I'm really excited that you're the guest

1004
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: for this um is the High Amendment. Is that the

1005
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: thing where like I know that like at least for

1006
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: a while, there was only one abortion clinic in Kentucky,

1007
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: and it was because you weren't allowed to have an

1008
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: abortion clinics. Hallways must be exactly and I'm making this

1009
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: number up thirty one inches wide, whereas a normal clinic

1010
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: has to have thirty three inch wide things. And so

1011
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: they would do this ship where you like cannot have

1012
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: any a clinic that is anything other than abortion clinic,

1013
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: which means that it is entirely financially unstable and impossible. Yeah,

1014
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: it starts stripping things. Essentially, the High Amendment really took

1015
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: away the funding, so any public funding could not go

1016
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: into it. So if you had accessibility too, so if

1017
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: you say, yes, we offer abortion air, then you're automatically

1018
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: stripped of it. You cannot get government funds period. So

1019
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: any kind of like services that would take medicaid, a

1020
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: mate of care, you cann't go to their uh get

1021
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: abortion because that was restricted for government funds. So like

1022
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: it absolutely was a classics law, which just continues the

1023
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: previous status quo where the rich have access to reproductive

1024
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: health and then and it's so sneaky. It's so sneaky

1025
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: because people don't know about it much like they really

1026
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: think they have access because it's a liberal state. But

1027
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: High Amendment, Yeah, reproductive care is so much more than

1028
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 1: you as you said, reproductive cares so much more in abortion,

1029
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: and like a lot of it is also about like

1030
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 1: the ability to choose to have children, right, right, people

1031
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: who have children. This is a high risk thing for

1032
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: many many people and they need that care. Um And

1033
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: there's a reason why people died in childbirth and it

1034
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to be because there are advancements that can

1035
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: prevent that, but people can't afford that like that, that

1036
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: in itself is that conversation, and we don't actually care

1037
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: about those who are giving birth, like to make sure

1038
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 1: they're healthy. That's not pro life. Yeah, totally. The hypocrisy

1039
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: of all that stuff can like keep me up at

1040
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 1: nights sometimes because I try to have empathy with people

1041
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: I disagree with and it it short circuits my empathy

1042
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 1: because I I can't understand it because it makes no

1043
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: fucking sense that you're like claiming to be you know,

1044
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: this one thing and then you just don't give a

1045
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: ship about people when they actually have children, and like,

1046
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 1: I love that. That's why you quoted that doctor from

1047
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: what was the Kentucky Pennsylvania Well, yeah, that's the same that.

1048
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding Pennsylvania because it's just seeing their perspective

1049
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: that that is the true point of it. And this

1050
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: conversation of a late term abortions, A majority of the

1051
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: people who are having late term abortions are not by choice. Uh.

1052
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: Typically they have been preparing for their child um and

1053
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: I know many of people who were anti choice for

1054
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: the longest time when they had to be put in

1055
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 1: that situation and understanding, Oh, this is still technically an abortion.

1056
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: They may have different terms for it. Um. Realizing that, oh,

1057
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: and then costing thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars,

1058
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: putting their lives at risk, coming back to being pro choice,

1059
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: realizing what this conversation and what these types of laws

1060
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: really hurt and who they really hurt, and how damaging

1061
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 1: it is. Um, because there's this mystic religious moral background

1062
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,879
Speaker 1: that in order to demoralize and demonize those who even

1063
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: talk about it as an option. Yeah, the moral crusaders

1064
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: are just being used as useful idiots by people who

1065
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: want to do this other ship and they like get

1066
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 1: people riled up into being like this is what is

1067
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: moral and they're like okay, and you run off and

1068
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: go do the thing, and like that's not what the

1069
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: people controlling those people and give a shit about any

1070
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: of that stuff. This is not about that. Yeah, And

1071
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: they're just you're being used if you made it this

1072
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 1: far and you're you're moral anti yeah, um, just more

1073
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: than in the first episode. Yeah, we're going to we're

1074
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: on this length so you know they know, no y'all know, right,

1075
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: but yes, thank you so much for bringing this because

1076
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 1: I love talking about this history. Yeah, I definitely learned

1077
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 1: more because I was like, what what is that? Things

1078
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 1: I didn't want to know and things I didn't want

1079
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 1: to know, So thank you for giving me that blend. Yeah, yeah, no,

1080
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 1: I yeah, I was realizing. I was like, this is

1081
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: a thing that some people know a lot about and

1082
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 1: some people don't know about it, and like, I'm really

1083
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: excited that more and more information is coming forward and

1084
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: people are coming more and more aware about Jane Collective

1085
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: and all of the people who have done this kind

1086
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: of work because like, because we fucking need it, and

1087
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: and we've we've already said that a bunch of times

1088
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: on the show, but it just it feels worth repeating.

1089
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 1: Is that, like we need to know that we can

1090
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: like be brave and do the right thing, you know,

1091
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: and we need to know that the means by which

1092
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: to do it, uh do the right thing, we can

1093
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: have those means. We can figure that out, you know.

1094
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: So Yeah, well, well, thank you so much for coming on.

1095
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: And I am a new best friend. Yeah, well you

1096
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: so many new best friends also because all the listeners,

1097
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: but I want to be more of the best friend

1098
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: than them. Um, any any plugs at the end here? Uh,

1099
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: Like I said, on the last episode, which I hope

1100
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 1: you listened to and you stayed around for the second part.

1101
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm on stuff mom never told you a podcast with

1102
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. You can get it wherever you listen

1103
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: to your podcast. We are on Instagram, in on Twitter.

1104
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: We don't we don't type. Is that this is how

1105
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: old I am. We don't post a lot. I don't

1106
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: type things on there a lot, but we're there and

1107
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: we love getting messages. Um. I'm also on the social

1108
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: media's obviously not very good at it on Instagram with

1109
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: mcmay Sam and Twitter Sam McVeigh because that's how creative

1110
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 1: I am. And you can see pictures of her dog. Yeah, yes,

1111
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: that's pretty much all it is pictures of my dog.

1112
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: So you like that, come on check it out and

1113
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: then we'll be back next week on Monday and one

1114
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:51,439
Speaker 1: stay wherever. Talk to you all soon by listeners. Cool

1115
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool

1116
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 1: Zone Media. Or more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit

1117
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: our website cool zone media dot com, or check us

1118
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: out on the I Heard Radio app, Apple Podcasts or

1119
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. M HM