WEBVTT - #092 Jason Flom with Kenzi Snider 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.760 This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:09.560 to monitoring and recording contact even. 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:15.440 There. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:21.160 And it hasn't been easy one hundred years. That's man, 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:21.720 I'm a kid. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:25.000 I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:29.040 that was ah, that was real painful, man, No, because 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.479 my life was discarded as if you know, like I 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.280 was a piece of trash or something, you know, a 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.519 hundred years and I had dreams I wanted to do 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:39.120 things I wouldn't committing crimes. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:39.680 You know. 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.160 I was a very good young man. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.080 That is what happens in so many cases. The cops 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.120 have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene, 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.880 they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.320 they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.960 marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so 0:00:58.080 --> 0:00:59.600 many of these wrongful convictions. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.679 The opening to sell door and I walk downstairs, and 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:09.000 I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt very 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.199 strange to be, like I said, to be walking without 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.640 no shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream, 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:16.840 but did again it wasn't a dream. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:33.800 This is wrongful conviction. On March eighteenth, two thousand, and one. 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.480 Jamie Pennich, an American exchange student in South Korea, was 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.160 brutally murdered in her motel room after a night of 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.720 partying with friends from the program. Her bloodied, nude body 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.199 was found on the floor. She had been stomped to death, 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.840 and her face was covered with a black fleece jacket. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.960 Kenzie Snyder, a nineteen year old exchange student from Marshall 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.840 University in West Virginia, was one of the friends that 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.840 Jamie was with. About a half dozen exchange students had 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.360 traveled from campus into the city, where they celebrated Saint 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.440 Patrick's Day in a bar filled with locals and US soldiers. 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:07.800 Korean police and army investigators were unable to solve this 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.680 horrific crime. But a year later, in February two thousand 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.679 and two, FBI agents contacted Kenzie out of the blue. 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.840 She was back at school by now in West Virginia 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.399 and they wanted to talk alone. She met with three 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.040 agents on three consecutive days for several hours, and the 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:26.040 sessions were grueling. When it was done, Kenzie had confessed 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.400 she murdered her friend. She said in the context of 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.639 a drunken sexual encounter. Kenzie was promptly arrested, incarcerated in 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.720 a local jail for ten months, and extradited to Korea 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.800 to stand trial. There, she spent another six months in 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.520 jail until a panel of judges found her not guilty, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.720 but the prosecutor appealed to verdict, and months later an 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:51.400 appeals court confirmed not guilty. In two thousand and six, 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.480 five years after the crime, in response to yet another appeal, 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:59.440 the Supreme Court of Korea once again affirmed not guilty. 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.519 That was eighteen years ago. Today we know a whole 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.400 lot more than we did then about false confessions. Kenzie 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.119 Snyder has been fully acquitted in court, yet her confession 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.320 haunts her and us, and it leads some people still 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.000 to question her actual innocence. Kensey Snyder Brown is here 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:18.840 with us today to tell her story. Welcome back to 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:23.120 Wrongful Conviction. Today is going to be a really interesting 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.560 day here in the studio at Wrongful Conviction Headquarters because 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:31.120 we have a number of firsts and one second, which 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.760 is that I'll go to the second first. We have 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:39.320 the distinguished professor of psychology and world renowned expert on 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.880 false confession, Saul Cassen, with us today so i'll welcome, 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:47.040 pleasure to be here. We also have as a special 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.800 treat a PhD student of his, Patty Sanchez, a PhD 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.920 student of John Jay who amazingly is studying the effect 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:59.640 of podcasts on jurors and on public opinion, right, and 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:04.000 so I'm super excited to have Patty Sanchez here to 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.720 learn from you. So Patty welcome, thank you very much. 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.440 And the star of our show who has an incredible 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.160 story to tell, the first case we've certainly ever had 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.600 from well even from the far East, but from Korea, 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:20.919 but not the first false confession case by far, but 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:24.120 the first case of this kind, and a really interesting 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.280 person in her own right, Kenzy Snyder. 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:27.880 Welcome, Hello, thank you for having me. 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:33.840 So, Kenzie, this is a crazy, crazy case. I mean, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.599 they're all crazy, but yours is so nuts. And we're 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.080 going back eighteen years now, two thousand and one. You 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.960 were a nineteen year old girl in a far away 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:48.640 land who was accused of brutally beating and stomping your friend, 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.359 your roommate, to death. And you don't look like somebody 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.400 who would stomp a fly to death. I mean, and 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.120 don't judge a book by its cover. 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:59.400 But I mean, I'm not I'm not that kind of person. 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:02.479 Yeah, you seem like a pretty gentle soul to me. 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.520 But let's go back to the beginning and Saul jump 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.360 in whenever you want. I mean, obviously you've been involved 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.520 in this case and so many others like it. Do 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.400 you want to go back and give us a little 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:15.960 of the history. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.920 Well, you know, eighteen years ago, people really knew nothing 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.599 about false confessions. But Kenzie's case caught my attention for 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.600 a few reasons. One, she was a college student, as 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.359 you say, you know, halfway round the world, and the 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.240 case made no sense to come back to her. A 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.039 year later, the case was unsolved, pressure was on the 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.160 law enforcement and the FBI to solve it, and they 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.240 came back to Kenzie to interrogate her. And when I 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.560 read that she confessed, what caught my interest was not 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.359 just that she agreed to sign a confession. She actually 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.719 came to believe in her own guilt. She had formed 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:55.919 a memory that they enabled, that they facilitated using police 0:05:55.920 --> 0:06:00.920 interrogation tactics that are highly suggestive and at lawfel in 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.839 the United States. And so my interest in this case 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.440 started with the fact that there She was a college 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.640 student twenty years old at the time that the FBI 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.200 came and interrogated her free agents in a motel room 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.960 in West Virginia, asking her to come alone, and for 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:23.160 three consecutive days they interrogated her. They lied to her 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:27.400 about the evidence, they tinkered with her memory. And so 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.280 what caught my attention was the fact that not only 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.040 did she confess, she internalized the belief in that confession, 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.640 which makes it very, very hard for people later to 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:38.360 get past it. 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:43.040 So, Kenzy, you are an American person on home soil 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.479 in West Virginia. Didn't get too much more American than that. 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.240 I guess you could say, right, hardland stuff. But you 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:52.120 were being interviewed on your home turf by people who 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.120 you would have I think thought would have your back. 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.480 Like was there even an extradition treaty in place? Like? 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.200 How did this it happened? 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:05.200 The extradition treaty itself was brand new. It had just 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.559 been I think formulated between the two countries in nineteen 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.280 ninety eight. And so the crime itself happened in Korea, 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:16.600 and all the suspects were Americans, and so the US 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.040 and Koreans were trying to work together. It wasn't going 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.640 very well, and that's why the FBI became a liaison. 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.800 And Jason Kenzie Snyder became the first American ever extradited 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:29.560 to Korea wow. 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.840 Brand new extradition treaty in nineteen ninety eight. I am 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.160 the first. I believe I am the only, but I 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:35.119 don't know that for sure. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.200 What a dubious distinction that is. 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:42.040 It's important to recognize there's a political context to this story. 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:46.400 When the Korean police and army investigators failed to solve 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:48.480 the crime. You know, there is a victim, and the 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:50.960 victim was American. Her name was Jamie Pennach and she 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.160 was from Pennsylvania, and her parents, as you can imagine 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.840 I can't even begin to imagine, were incredibly upset and 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:03.320 wanted this crime solved. Senator orl Inspector of Pennsylvania met 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:07.320 with Korean authorities to pressure them to solve this crime. 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.760 Because they're you know, there is that Americans, and we're 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:12.559 supposed to be in this together to solve the crime 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:13.800 of another American victim. 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.640 And I don't know what they knew about the details 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.120 of the case, but in my view, I think they 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.520 believe they were acting on behalf of the family of 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:22.040 the victim. 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.080 Yeah, and Kenzie, I mean, mess have been surreal first 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.160 of all, like, who would ever think that, you know, 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.520 your roommate would turn up as a corpse, right, and 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:35.400 in such a brutal fashion. That alone is a real 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:39.600 life nightmare. But then you're back in West Virginia, you know, 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:41.920 I'm sure dealing with some trauma related to this, but 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.559 moving on with your life, and along come these three 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:51.319 FBI agents out of nowhere. And I can't imagine at 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.320 that age, when your brain's not even fully formed, right, 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:57.400 you're still we know, the adolescent brain doesn't fully switch over, 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.120 so to speak, right until you're around twenty five. What 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:00.880 was going through your head? 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.360 I had come back to West Virginia and I was 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.599 working with troubled youth and I was just trying to 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.000 get my feet back underneath me again, because as you said, 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.079 it is a traumatic experience. And then the FBA called 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.480 me and asked if I could help them further the investigation. 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:18.960 So I had gone to the hotel room that day 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.680 to talk to them to help them, not realizing what 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:23.400 they had planned. 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.360 So yeah, okay, that's a common thing too. And you know, Patty, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.120 I want you to jump in here whenever you want, 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.360 because I know you're knowledgeable about this case and about 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.360 this subject. That's sort of a common thing as well 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.000 that we hear in these wrongful conviction cases is that 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.600 when the interrogation, whether it's local police or FBI agents 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.720 or whatever, often they don't tell you that you're a suspect, right, 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.680 And this way you're more inclined to be open. And 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.240 as Kensey was, she wanted to be helpful. Anyone would 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.199 want to be helpful, but that instinct can really lead 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:54.240 you astray for. 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.560 Sure, especially when you're not even at a police station 0:09:57.760 --> 0:09:58.600 or anything like that. 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:00.000 So she was at a hotel. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.240 Tell, so the lines are blurred even further as to 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.960 the purpose of my even talking to these agents. You know, 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.080 she was never even realized that she was a suspect 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:14.280 until she had already been talking for at least a day. So, yeah, 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.040 it is a problem that it's not always clear to 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:21.480 a suspect that they're a suspect, and then they can 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:23.240 invoke their right to a lawyer if you don't know 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:24.880 you're being questioned as a suspect. 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.040 So, and some people listening would probably wonder whether that's 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.760 legal for them to take her to a hotel or 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:36.280 motel room. I mean it sounds at a minimum unusual, right, yes, 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.600 And I don't know if it's more or less disorienting 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:40.640 than being in one of those rooms that you always 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.120 see on TV, right, the interrogation rooms, the window lists. 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.120 You know, it just seems odd. I mean a motel room, 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.680 there's a bed, there's a TV. It's like, it seems odd. 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.600 Yes, it feels odd, and all of the red flags 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.240 that normally would go up. She's not technically in custody, 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.079 so they don't have to mirandize her. 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.520 So I'm trying to picture this, Kenzie. You're interrogated for 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.160 that first day for hours and hours I assume. 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.080 Right, it wasn't an interrogation. It was just questioning and 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.400 getting together and seeing how your day was, how was 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.680 your year, trying to see how I'd been sleeping, you know, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:19.600 if I'd had any repercussions from seeing her body, and 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:20.880 just trying to be my friend. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.679 It was your sense that they cared about you. 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:25.679 Yeah, they wanted to see how I was doing. It 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:27.760 had been a year no one had checked up on me, 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:29.280 and they were just checking up on me. At one 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.719 point one of the investigators said that he thought of 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:32.440 me like a sister. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.719 And then the second day did it become clear to 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.120 you that they had a different idea or motive or 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:41.000 what I want to call it. 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.520 Part Way through the second day, the second day still 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.560 started with friendly conversation. I brought ice cream because I 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.040 thought they were my friends, and we had ice cream 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.320 and talked about they'd asked me to do a homework 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.920 assignment when I left the first day, writing out everything 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:00.000 that I had gone through that night, the sequence of events, 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.520 and then we were just reading that and having ice 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.240 cream when we first got there in the hotel room 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:04.880 on the second day. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.480 That's sort of weirdly chilling to me, I mean, and 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.240 chilling no pun intended, but even still, I mean, it 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.880 feels a little sick, right, the idea of you bringing 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.080 the ice cream and ice cream having you know, it's 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.280 not something you do with people that you aren't well 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.160 acquainted with in general. Right, it reminds us all of 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.079 our youth, right on my trips at Baskin Robbins and whatnot. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.760 But that's beside the point. So, Saul, what do you 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.040 think was really going on here? Like this was this 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.760 all scripted? Did they come in? This was scripted, So 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:33.720 they had the idea before they went in the first day, 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:35.520 we're going to gain her trust, right. 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.280 We're going to be friendly, we're going to establish rapport. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.800 We're going to gain her trust. That sounds like a 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.800 very reasonable tactic for an interrogator to use, and it is. 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.560 But now look at the nefarious side of establishing rapport 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.120 in that way and gaining her trust as a predicate 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.640 for what will happen on day two. So if you 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.720 think of day one as just a friendly interview, she 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.320 come back into day two, They ask her to return, 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.320 and she does alone. She comes back day two with 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.240 ice cream. But what she doesn't realize is day two 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.120 is not going to be an interview anymore. It's going 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.400 to be an accusatory interrogation. And it's going to be 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.000 the kind of interrogation where they accuse her with certainty, 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.480 we know you did this. They're going to lie about evidence, 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.920 they're going to point to apparent contradictions, and they're going 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:28.400 to tinker with her memory. From a psychological perspective, here's 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:33.400 the problem. They gained her trust and then they exploited 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:37.040 that trust. That they gained because when you have somebody's trust, 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.040 you become a credible source. So when somebody you trust 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.800 becomes credible and that person of credibility starts to lie 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.960 about the evidence, you almost have no choice but to 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.839 believe the lie and wonder, well, I don't know how 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.520 I can reconcile that information you just gave me with 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.640 the fact that I don't remember things that way. So 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.920 they gain their her trust on day one as a 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.520 predicate for manipulating her on day two, And of course 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.560 at some point on day two when it becomes clear 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.560 that she's not a witness but a suspect, it would 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.680 seem to me at some point the alarm bells would 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:16.520 go off and you'd realize I need help. 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.760 In the second day, shortly after we got there, after 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.960 we'd read the statement and had our ice cream, we'd 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:25.640 gone over the statement a little bit, and they asked 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.320 if they could show me something, and they showed me 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.120 some like a little video of the hotel room and 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.200 walked around in it so I could see it better. 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.200 And then they had like a photo album of some 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.880 of the crime scene photos, and when we're looking at them, 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.240 they were saying, I can't remember the phrasing. But at 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.400 one point I asked, are you saying I did it? 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:47.640 And they just kind of looked at me and shrugged. 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.440 And at that point I knew that I needed to 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.320 get out of the room. I asked them if I 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.280 could leave, and I went out of the hotel room 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.360 and I was only gone a few seconds and I 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.560 came back in and I asked, said, do I need 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.360 to get a lawyer? That's what I asked, And they said, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.320 if you get one, we can't say that you cooperated. 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:11.040 Wow. That's some reverse psychology there, too, isn't it. Right? 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.960 That was a very well chosen phrase. I mean, you know, 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.200 not in terms of justice, but in terms of if 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.160 for what the goal was that they were trying to get, 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.640 which was a confession, that would be the perfect thing 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.720 to say, because now you're disoriented. You don't know. There's 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.640 no right answer to that, right, I mean, and we 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.160 see this in false confessions, right. They sort of create 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:32.120 this trap with words where there is no door that's open, 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.560 and so you have to choose between bad options, like 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.160 which kind of cancer do you want? Right? Right, I'm 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.160 actually sitting there like I want to go back in 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.120 time and pull you away and say don't go back there, right, like, 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:42.960 don't go. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:44.800 Well, I wish I could have. When I left the room, 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:46.840 I understand that they were afraid that I wouldn't come 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:48.480 back in because it would have been over for them. 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.200 So I wish I wouldn't have gone back in the room. 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.840 But when I did, you know, they said, if you 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.800 get a lawyer, then we can't say that you cooperated. 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.920 Then we sat down and I was sitting in like 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.640 the easy chair in the hotel room, so a comfortable seat, 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.840 and I was tired from work the day before and 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.080 then staying up late doing the homework assignment that they 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.120 asked for and waking up early and to go to 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.960 work before this. So I was sitting in the chair 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.880 and they brought in an FBI agent who specialized in 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.160 this field, and he said, we can do this two ways. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:20.920 We can either do it the hard way or the 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.280 easy way. And I said, well, let's do it the 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.000 easy way, and that way you'll know I didn't do 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.280 this and we can get on with our day. So 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.160 he said, well, let's go through the events and emotionally 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.320 talk about how we feel when we were, you know, 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.240 at the bar and when you were drinking, and how 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.840 did you feel when you're walking home with Jamie on 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.360 your arm? And then we got to the part where 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.840 where she was undressed and to take a shower when 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.680 I left her, and they were trying to get into 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.440 how I felt about that, and I was like, well, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.840 I'm fine. I said, I was helping her out. Now 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.000 I'm leaving. And they said, well, this isn't working. Let's 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.440 do it the hard way. And so they would ask 0:16:55.480 --> 0:17:00.440 me these questions, like direct questions. So what was she 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.440 wearing when you left her? And I said that she 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:05.240 was in her brawn or underwear to take the shower, 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.840 and they said, no, that's not right. And I remember 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.439 sitting there and I'm like, but she was like, I 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:17.879 have memories of her. I have memories of what she 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.600 was wearing when I left her. 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:21.880 She's me. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.080 And they said, no, that's wrong. And I remember referencing 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.479 back to the photos that they had shown me, and 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.840 one of them was her pants with her underwear inside 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.360 of them, and I was like, well, in my head, 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.200 I said, well, obviously she did take them off at 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.439 some point. So I said in the bathroom, because that's 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.679 where the picture was taken, and her underwear was in 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.760 her pants, so obviously it had happened, even though that's 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.239 not what she looked like when I left her. But 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.480 it was like this wedge that opened up the floodgates 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:58.320 of me doubting the memories that I had had and 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:03.080 replacing them with this like multiple choice questioning that they 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.280 were giving me. And if I gave them an answer 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:07.679 that they didn't like, then they'd say, no, that didn't happen. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.080 They'd asked me a new question, they didn't like that answer. No, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:12.840 that's not how it happened. And I kept kind of 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:17.400 like winding my way through their questions, trying to make 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.760 all I'd spent a week in the police station in 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:25.359 Korea after this crime, seeing all of all the crime 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.040 scene photos. I had seen the crime scene itself. We'd 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.000 stayed in the hotel room, and so all these pieces 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.320 had been put together for me to recreate what they 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.159 wanted me to be saying, So. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:40.119 Day three, you end up signing this false confession. 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.720 Well, the second day they had the confession, and so 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:50.040 that night, I know it sounds crazy, I started like 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.639 making it more mine, or making it more real, or 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.159 making it more believable, eve into myself. And so on 0:18:56.200 --> 0:19:00.199 the third day we met back and they want led 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.040 me to narrate that confession, and they wrote it down, 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.080 still guided a little bit with their assistance, like we 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.480 didn't you say something about I think there was a rag? 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.320 Didn't you say something about a rag? And so then 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.679 I would fill that in and then I signed that 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.359 confession and that's the one that they submit it for 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:18.200 me to be arrested. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.480 It sounds to me like there's elements here of Stockholm 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:22.240 syndrome too. 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:27.720 Now, yes, they didn't just manipulate her compliance, they manipulated 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.560 her memory. It's form of brainwashing. 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:31.480 And you know, I. 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:35.280 Think what happened here is the hardest type of false 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.960 confession for anybody to understand. It's one thing to argue 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.600 that I can coerce you by stress, by promises, by 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:47.200 threats real or implied, to agree to confess to something 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:51.200 you didn't do. It's a whole other game to argue 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:53.840 that I cannot only get you to confess, I can 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.680 get you to believe in your guilt. And yet those 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:02.240 internalized false confessions throughout history, there are several high profile 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.520 cases like it. When I heard what was done to 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.719 Kenzi and the way she internalized the belief in her 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.720 guilt to a point where I read an account Kenzi 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.120 where you said it was like, I have two memories. 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:19.240 One I think is the real one in color with voices, 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:21.399 and the other is kind of a black and white film. 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.280 I think was how you put it, yeah. 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.159 Like still's being put together, whereas the other one, like 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.040 you have the emotions attached to them, you know what, 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.720 it felt like, it's more colorful. The other one had 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.200 like clouds around it. As I said, still images being 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.679 put together, like photos. The images that I had in 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.760 my head from what they had worked their way through. 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.400