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Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject

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Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording contact even.

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Speaker 2: There.

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Speaker 3: And it hasn't been easy one hundred years. That's man,

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Speaker 3: I'm a kid.

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Speaker 4: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know

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Speaker 4: that was ah, that was real painful, man, No, because

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Speaker 4: my life was discarded as if you know, like I

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Speaker 4: was a piece of trash or something, you know, a

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Speaker 4: hundred years and I had dreams I wanted to do

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Speaker 4: things I wouldn't committing crimes.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 5: I was a very good young man.

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Speaker 6: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops

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Speaker 6: have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene,

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Speaker 6: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 6: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 6: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so

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Speaker 6: many of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 1: The opening to sell door and I walk downstairs, and

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Speaker 1: I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt very

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Speaker 1: strange to be, like I said, to be walking without

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Speaker 1: no shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream,

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Speaker 1: but did again it wasn't a dream.

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Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. On March eighteenth, two thousand, and one.

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Speaker 3: Jamie Pennich, an American exchange student in South Korea, was

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Speaker 3: brutally murdered in her motel room after a night of

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Speaker 3: partying with friends from the program. Her bloodied, nude body

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Speaker 3: was found on the floor. She had been stomped to death,

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Speaker 3: and her face was covered with a black fleece jacket.

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Speaker 3: Kenzie Snyder, a nineteen year old exchange student from Marshall

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Speaker 3: University in West Virginia, was one of the friends that

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Speaker 3: Jamie was with. About a half dozen exchange students had

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Speaker 3: traveled from campus into the city, where they celebrated Saint

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Speaker 3: Patrick's Day in a bar filled with locals and US soldiers.

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Speaker 3: Korean police and army investigators were unable to solve this

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Speaker 3: horrific crime. But a year later, in February two thousand

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Speaker 3: and two, FBI agents contacted Kenzie out of the blue.

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Speaker 3: She was back at school by now in West Virginia

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Speaker 3: and they wanted to talk alone. She met with three

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Speaker 3: agents on three consecutive days for several hours, and the

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Speaker 3: sessions were grueling. When it was done, Kenzie had confessed

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Speaker 3: she murdered her friend. She said in the context of

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Speaker 3: a drunken sexual encounter. Kenzie was promptly arrested, incarcerated in

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Speaker 3: a local jail for ten months, and extradited to Korea

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Speaker 3: to stand trial. There, she spent another six months in

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Speaker 3: jail until a panel of judges found her not guilty,

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Speaker 3: but the prosecutor appealed to verdict, and months later an

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Speaker 3: appeals court confirmed not guilty. In two thousand and six,

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Speaker 3: five years after the crime, in response to yet another appeal,

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court of Korea once again affirmed not guilty.

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Speaker 3: That was eighteen years ago. Today we know a whole

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Speaker 3: lot more than we did then about false confessions. Kenzie

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Speaker 3: Snyder has been fully acquitted in court, yet her confession

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Speaker 3: haunts her and us, and it leads some people still

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Speaker 3: to question her actual innocence. Kensey Snyder Brown is here

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Speaker 3: with us today to tell her story. Welcome back to

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Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction. Today is going to be a really interesting

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Speaker 3: day here in the studio at Wrongful Conviction Headquarters because

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Speaker 3: we have a number of firsts and one second, which

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Speaker 3: is that I'll go to the second first. We have

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Speaker 3: the distinguished professor of psychology and world renowned expert on

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Speaker 3: false confession, Saul Cassen, with us today so i'll welcome,

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Speaker 3: pleasure to be here. We also have as a special

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Speaker 3: treat a PhD student of his, Patty Sanchez, a PhD

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Speaker 3: student of John Jay who amazingly is studying the effect

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Speaker 3: of podcasts on jurors and on public opinion, right, and

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Speaker 3: so I'm super excited to have Patty Sanchez here to

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Speaker 3: learn from you. So Patty welcome, thank you very much.

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Speaker 3: And the star of our show who has an incredible

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Speaker 3: story to tell, the first case we've certainly ever had

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Speaker 3: from well even from the far East, but from Korea,

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Speaker 3: but not the first false confession case by far, but

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Speaker 3: the first case of this kind, and a really interesting

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Speaker 3: person in her own right, Kenzy Snyder.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Hello, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: So, Kenzie, this is a crazy, crazy case. I mean,

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Speaker 3: they're all crazy, but yours is so nuts. And we're

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Speaker 3: going back eighteen years now, two thousand and one. You

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Speaker 3: were a nineteen year old girl in a far away

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Speaker 3: land who was accused of brutally beating and stomping your friend,

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Speaker 3: your roommate, to death. And you don't look like somebody

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Speaker 3: who would stomp a fly to death. I mean, and

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Speaker 3: don't judge a book by its cover.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, I'm not I'm not that kind of person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you seem like a pretty gentle soul to me.

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Speaker 3: But let's go back to the beginning and Saul jump

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Speaker 3: in whenever you want. I mean, obviously you've been involved

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Speaker 3: in this case and so many others like it. Do

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Speaker 3: you want to go back and give us a little

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Speaker 3: of the history.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, eighteen years ago, people really knew nothing

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Speaker 5: about false confessions. But Kenzie's case caught my attention for

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Speaker 5: a few reasons. One, she was a college student, as

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Speaker 5: you say, you know, halfway round the world, and the

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Speaker 5: case made no sense to come back to her. A

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Speaker 5: year later, the case was unsolved, pressure was on the

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Speaker 5: law enforcement and the FBI to solve it, and they

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Speaker 5: came back to Kenzie to interrogate her. And when I

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Speaker 5: read that she confessed, what caught my interest was not

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Speaker 5: just that she agreed to sign a confession. She actually

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Speaker 5: came to believe in her own guilt. She had formed

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Speaker 5: a memory that they enabled, that they facilitated using police

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Speaker 5: interrogation tactics that are highly suggestive and at lawfel in

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Speaker 5: the United States. And so my interest in this case

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Speaker 5: started with the fact that there She was a college

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Speaker 5: student twenty years old at the time that the FBI

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Speaker 5: came and interrogated her free agents in a motel room

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Speaker 5: in West Virginia, asking her to come alone, and for

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Speaker 5: three consecutive days they interrogated her. They lied to her

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Speaker 5: about the evidence, they tinkered with her memory. And so

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Speaker 5: what caught my attention was the fact that not only

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Speaker 5: did she confess, she internalized the belief in that confession,

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Speaker 5: which makes it very, very hard for people later to

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Speaker 5: get past it.

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Speaker 3: So, Kenzy, you are an American person on home soil

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Speaker 3: in West Virginia. Didn't get too much more American than that.

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Speaker 3: I guess you could say, right, hardland stuff. But you

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Speaker 3: were being interviewed on your home turf by people who

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Speaker 3: you would have I think thought would have your back.

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Speaker 3: Like was there even an extradition treaty in place? Like?

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Speaker 3: How did this it happened?

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Speaker 2: The extradition treaty itself was brand new. It had just

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Speaker 2: been I think formulated between the two countries in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety eight. And so the crime itself happened in Korea,

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Speaker 2: and all the suspects were Americans, and so the US

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Speaker 2: and Koreans were trying to work together. It wasn't going

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Speaker 2: very well, and that's why the FBI became a liaison.

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Speaker 5: And Jason Kenzie Snyder became the first American ever extradited

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Speaker 5: to Korea wow.

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Speaker 2: Brand new extradition treaty in nineteen ninety eight. I am

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Speaker 2: the first. I believe I am the only, but I

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Speaker 2: don't know that for sure.

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Speaker 3: What a dubious distinction that is.

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Speaker 5: It's important to recognize there's a political context to this story.

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Speaker 5: When the Korean police and army investigators failed to solve

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Speaker 5: the crime. You know, there is a victim, and the

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Speaker 5: victim was American. Her name was Jamie Pennach and she

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Speaker 5: was from Pennsylvania, and her parents, as you can imagine

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Speaker 5: I can't even begin to imagine, were incredibly upset and

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Speaker 5: wanted this crime solved. Senator orl Inspector of Pennsylvania met

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Speaker 5: with Korean authorities to pressure them to solve this crime.

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Speaker 2: Because they're you know, there is that Americans, and we're

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Speaker 2: supposed to be in this together to solve the crime

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Speaker 2: of another American victim.

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Speaker 5: And I don't know what they knew about the details

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Speaker 5: of the case, but in my view, I think they

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Speaker 5: believe they were acting on behalf of the family of

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Speaker 5: the victim.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Kenzie, I mean, mess have been surreal first

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Speaker 3: of all, like, who would ever think that, you know,

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Speaker 3: your roommate would turn up as a corpse, right, and

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Speaker 3: in such a brutal fashion. That alone is a real

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Speaker 3: life nightmare. But then you're back in West Virginia, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure dealing with some trauma related to this, but

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Speaker 3: moving on with your life, and along come these three

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Speaker 3: FBI agents out of nowhere. And I can't imagine at

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Speaker 3: that age, when your brain's not even fully formed, right,

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Speaker 3: you're still we know, the adolescent brain doesn't fully switch over,

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Speaker 3: so to speak, right until you're around twenty five. What

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Speaker 3: was going through your head?

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Speaker 2: I had come back to West Virginia and I was

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Speaker 2: working with troubled youth and I was just trying to

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Speaker 2: get my feet back underneath me again, because as you said,

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Speaker 2: it is a traumatic experience. And then the FBA called

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Speaker 2: me and asked if I could help them further the investigation.

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Speaker 2: So I had gone to the hotel room that day

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Speaker 2: to talk to them to help them, not realizing what

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Speaker 2: they had planned.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, okay, that's a common thing too. And you know, Patty,

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Speaker 3: I want you to jump in here whenever you want,

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Speaker 3: because I know you're knowledgeable about this case and about

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Speaker 3: this subject. That's sort of a common thing as well

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Speaker 3: that we hear in these wrongful conviction cases is that

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Speaker 3: when the interrogation, whether it's local police or FBI agents

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Speaker 3: or whatever, often they don't tell you that you're a suspect, right,

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Speaker 3: And this way you're more inclined to be open. And

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Speaker 3: as Kensey was, she wanted to be helpful. Anyone would

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Speaker 3: want to be helpful, but that instinct can really lead

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Speaker 3: you astray for.

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Speaker 7: Sure, especially when you're not even at a police station

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Speaker 7: or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: So she was at a hotel.

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Speaker 7: Tell, so the lines are blurred even further as to

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Speaker 7: the purpose of my even talking to these agents. You know,

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Speaker 7: she was never even realized that she was a suspect

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Speaker 7: until she had already been talking for at least a day. So, yeah,

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Speaker 7: it is a problem that it's not always clear to

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Speaker 7: a suspect that they're a suspect, and then they can

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Speaker 7: invoke their right to a lawyer if you don't know

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Speaker 7: you're being questioned as a suspect.

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Speaker 3: So, and some people listening would probably wonder whether that's

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Speaker 3: legal for them to take her to a hotel or

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Speaker 3: motel room. I mean it sounds at a minimum unusual, right, yes,

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Speaker 3: And I don't know if it's more or less disorienting

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Speaker 3: than being in one of those rooms that you always

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Speaker 3: see on TV, right, the interrogation rooms, the window lists.

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Speaker 3: You know, it just seems odd. I mean a motel room,

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Speaker 3: there's a bed, there's a TV. It's like, it seems odd.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it feels odd, and all of the red flags

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Speaker 5: that normally would go up. She's not technically in custody,

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Speaker 5: so they don't have to mirandize her.

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Speaker 3: So I'm trying to picture this, Kenzie. You're interrogated for

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Speaker 3: that first day for hours and hours I assume.

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Speaker 2: Right, it wasn't an interrogation. It was just questioning and

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Speaker 2: getting together and seeing how your day was, how was

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Speaker 2: your year, trying to see how I'd been sleeping, you know,

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Speaker 2: if I'd had any repercussions from seeing her body, and

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Speaker 2: just trying to be my friend.

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Speaker 5: It was your sense that they cared about you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they wanted to see how I was doing. It

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Speaker 2: had been a year no one had checked up on me,

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Speaker 2: and they were just checking up on me. At one

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Speaker 2: point one of the investigators said that he thought of

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Speaker 2: me like a sister.

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Speaker 3: And then the second day did it become clear to

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Speaker 3: you that they had a different idea or motive or

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Speaker 3: what I want to call it.

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Speaker 2: Part Way through the second day, the second day still

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Speaker 2: started with friendly conversation. I brought ice cream because I

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Speaker 2: thought they were my friends, and we had ice cream

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Speaker 2: and talked about they'd asked me to do a homework

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Speaker 2: assignment when I left the first day, writing out everything

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Speaker 2: that I had gone through that night, the sequence of events,

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Speaker 2: and then we were just reading that and having ice

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Speaker 2: cream when we first got there in the hotel room

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Speaker 2: on the second day.

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Speaker 3: That's sort of weirdly chilling to me, I mean, and

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Speaker 3: chilling no pun intended, but even still, I mean, it

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Speaker 3: feels a little sick, right, the idea of you bringing

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Speaker 3: the ice cream and ice cream having you know, it's

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Speaker 3: not something you do with people that you aren't well

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Speaker 3: acquainted with in general. Right, it reminds us all of

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Speaker 3: our youth, right on my trips at Baskin Robbins and whatnot.

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Speaker 3: But that's beside the point. So, Saul, what do you

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Speaker 3: think was really going on here? Like this was this

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Speaker 3: all scripted? Did they come in? This was scripted, So

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Speaker 3: they had the idea before they went in the first day,

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Speaker 3: we're going to gain her trust, right.

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Speaker 5: We're going to be friendly, we're going to establish rapport.

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Speaker 5: We're going to gain her trust. That sounds like a

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Speaker 5: very reasonable tactic for an interrogator to use, and it is.

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Speaker 5: But now look at the nefarious side of establishing rapport

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Speaker 5: in that way and gaining her trust as a predicate

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Speaker 5: for what will happen on day two. So if you

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Speaker 5: think of day one as just a friendly interview, she

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Speaker 5: come back into day two, They ask her to return,

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Speaker 5: and she does alone. She comes back day two with

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Speaker 5: ice cream. But what she doesn't realize is day two

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Speaker 5: is not going to be an interview anymore. It's going

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Speaker 5: to be an accusatory interrogation. And it's going to be

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Speaker 5: the kind of interrogation where they accuse her with certainty,

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Speaker 5: we know you did this. They're going to lie about evidence,

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Speaker 5: they're going to point to apparent contradictions, and they're going

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Speaker 5: to tinker with her memory. From a psychological perspective, here's

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Speaker 5: the problem. They gained her trust and then they exploited

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Speaker 5: that trust. That they gained because when you have somebody's trust,

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Speaker 5: you become a credible source. So when somebody you trust

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Speaker 5: becomes credible and that person of credibility starts to lie

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Speaker 5: about the evidence, you almost have no choice but to

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Speaker 5: believe the lie and wonder, well, I don't know how

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Speaker 5: I can reconcile that information you just gave me with

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Speaker 5: the fact that I don't remember things that way. So

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Speaker 5: they gain their her trust on day one as a

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Speaker 5: predicate for manipulating her on day two, And of course

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Speaker 5: at some point on day two when it becomes clear

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Speaker 5: that she's not a witness but a suspect, it would

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Speaker 5: seem to me at some point the alarm bells would

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Speaker 5: go off and you'd realize I need help.

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Speaker 2: In the second day, shortly after we got there, after

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Speaker 2: we'd read the statement and had our ice cream, we'd

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Speaker 2: gone over the statement a little bit, and they asked

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Speaker 2: if they could show me something, and they showed me

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Speaker 2: some like a little video of the hotel room and

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Speaker 2: walked around in it so I could see it better.

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Speaker 2: And then they had like a photo album of some

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Speaker 2: of the crime scene photos, and when we're looking at them,

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Speaker 2: they were saying, I can't remember the phrasing. But at

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Speaker 2: one point I asked, are you saying I did it?

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Speaker 2: And they just kind of looked at me and shrugged.

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Speaker 2: And at that point I knew that I needed to

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Speaker 2: get out of the room. I asked them if I

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Speaker 2: could leave, and I went out of the hotel room

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Speaker 2: and I was only gone a few seconds and I

285
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Speaker 2: came back in and I asked, said, do I need

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Speaker 2: to get a lawyer? That's what I asked, And they said,

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Speaker 2: if you get one, we can't say that you cooperated.

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Speaker 3: Wow. That's some reverse psychology there, too, isn't it. Right?

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Speaker 3: That was a very well chosen phrase. I mean, you know,

290
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Speaker 3: not in terms of justice, but in terms of if

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Speaker 3: for what the goal was that they were trying to get,

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Speaker 3: which was a confession, that would be the perfect thing

293
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Speaker 3: to say, because now you're disoriented. You don't know. There's

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Speaker 3: no right answer to that, right, I mean, and we

295
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Speaker 3: see this in false confessions, right. They sort of create

296
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Speaker 3: this trap with words where there is no door that's open,

297
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Speaker 3: and so you have to choose between bad options, like

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Speaker 3: which kind of cancer do you want? Right? Right, I'm

299
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Speaker 3: actually sitting there like I want to go back in

300
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Speaker 3: time and pull you away and say don't go back there, right, like,

301
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Speaker 3: don't go.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wish I could have. When I left the room,

303
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Speaker 2: I understand that they were afraid that I wouldn't come

304
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Speaker 2: back in because it would have been over for them.

305
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Speaker 2: So I wish I wouldn't have gone back in the room.

306
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Speaker 2: But when I did, you know, they said, if you

307
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Speaker 2: get a lawyer, then we can't say that you cooperated.

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Speaker 2: Then we sat down and I was sitting in like

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Speaker 2: the easy chair in the hotel room, so a comfortable seat,

310
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Speaker 2: and I was tired from work the day before and

311
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Speaker 2: then staying up late doing the homework assignment that they

312
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Speaker 2: asked for and waking up early and to go to

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Speaker 2: work before this. So I was sitting in the chair

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Speaker 2: and they brought in an FBI agent who specialized in

315
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Speaker 2: this field, and he said, we can do this two ways.

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Speaker 2: We can either do it the hard way or the

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Speaker 2: easy way. And I said, well, let's do it the

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Speaker 2: easy way, and that way you'll know I didn't do

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Speaker 2: this and we can get on with our day. So

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Speaker 2: he said, well, let's go through the events and emotionally

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Speaker 2: talk about how we feel when we were, you know,

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Speaker 2: at the bar and when you were drinking, and how

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Speaker 2: did you feel when you're walking home with Jamie on

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Speaker 2: your arm? And then we got to the part where

325
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Speaker 2: where she was undressed and to take a shower when

326
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Speaker 2: I left her, and they were trying to get into

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Speaker 2: how I felt about that, and I was like, well,

328
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Speaker 2: I'm fine. I said, I was helping her out. Now

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Speaker 2: I'm leaving. And they said, well, this isn't working. Let's

330
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Speaker 2: do it the hard way. And so they would ask

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Speaker 2: me these questions, like direct questions. So what was she

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Speaker 2: wearing when you left her? And I said that she

333
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Speaker 2: was in her brawn or underwear to take the shower,

334
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Speaker 2: and they said, no, that's not right. And I remember

335
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Speaker 2: sitting there and I'm like, but she was like, I

336
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Speaker 2: have memories of her. I have memories of what she

337
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Speaker 2: was wearing when I left her.

338
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Speaker 3: She's me.

339
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Speaker 2: And they said, no, that's wrong. And I remember referencing

340
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,479
Speaker 2: back to the photos that they had shown me, and

341
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Speaker 2: one of them was her pants with her underwear inside

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Speaker 2: of them, and I was like, well, in my head,

343
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Speaker 2: I said, well, obviously she did take them off at

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Speaker 2: some point. So I said in the bathroom, because that's

345
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Speaker 2: where the picture was taken, and her underwear was in

346
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Speaker 2: her pants, so obviously it had happened, even though that's

347
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Speaker 2: not what she looked like when I left her. But

348
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Speaker 2: it was like this wedge that opened up the floodgates

349
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Speaker 2: of me doubting the memories that I had had and

350
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Speaker 2: replacing them with this like multiple choice questioning that they

351
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,280
Speaker 2: were giving me. And if I gave them an answer

352
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Speaker 2: that they didn't like, then they'd say, no, that didn't happen.

353
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 2: They'd asked me a new question, they didn't like that answer. No,

354
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Speaker 2: that's not how it happened. And I kept kind of

355
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,400
Speaker 2: like winding my way through their questions, trying to make

356
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Speaker 2: all I'd spent a week in the police station in

357
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Speaker 2: Korea after this crime, seeing all of all the crime

358
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Speaker 2: scene photos. I had seen the crime scene itself. We'd

359
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 2: stayed in the hotel room, and so all these pieces

360
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 2: had been put together for me to recreate what they

361
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,159
Speaker 2: wanted me to be saying, So.

362
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Speaker 3: Day three, you end up signing this false confession.

363
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 2: Well, the second day they had the confession, and so

364
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Speaker 2: that night, I know it sounds crazy, I started like

365
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,639
Speaker 2: making it more mine, or making it more real, or

366
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,159
Speaker 2: making it more believable, eve into myself. And so on

367
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Speaker 2: the third day we met back and they want led

368
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 2: me to narrate that confession, and they wrote it down,

369
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 2: still guided a little bit with their assistance, like we

370
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 2: didn't you say something about I think there was a rag?

371
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 2: Didn't you say something about a rag? And so then

372
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,679
Speaker 2: I would fill that in and then I signed that

373
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Speaker 2: confession and that's the one that they submit it for

374
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Speaker 2: me to be arrested.

375
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Speaker 3: It sounds to me like there's elements here of Stockholm

376
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Speaker 3: syndrome too.

377
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Speaker 5: Now, yes, they didn't just manipulate her compliance, they manipulated

378
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 5: her memory. It's form of brainwashing.

379
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 3: And you know, I.

380
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 5: Think what happened here is the hardest type of false

381
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 5: confession for anybody to understand. It's one thing to argue

382
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 5: that I can coerce you by stress, by promises, by

383
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:47,200
Speaker 5: threats real or implied, to agree to confess to something

384
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 5: you didn't do. It's a whole other game to argue

385
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 5: that I cannot only get you to confess, I can

386
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 5: get you to believe in your guilt. And yet those

387
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 5: internalized false confessions throughout history, there are several high profile

388
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 5: cases like it. When I heard what was done to

389
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,719
Speaker 5: Kenzi and the way she internalized the belief in her

390
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 5: guilt to a point where I read an account Kenzi

391
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,120
Speaker 5: where you said it was like, I have two memories.

392
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 5: One I think is the real one in color with voices,

393
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,399
Speaker 5: and the other is kind of a black and white film.

394
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 5: I think was how you put it, yeah.

395
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 2: Like still's being put together, whereas the other one, like

396
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 2: you have the emotions attached to them, you know what,

397
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 2: it felt like, it's more colorful. The other one had

398
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 2: like clouds around it. As I said, still images being

399
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,679
Speaker 2: put together, like photos. The images that I had in

400
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 2: my head from what they had worked their way through.

401
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 2: The confession didn't feel like something. It still didn't feel

402
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 2: like something that I would ever do. But I didn't

403
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 2: understand how could I confess to something that I didn't do.

404
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 3: I gotta ask when in between day one and day two,

405
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 3: or day two and day three, or at what point

406
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 3: did you call your dad or your mom or somebody

407
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,640
Speaker 3: that you trust and say, this is going crazy? What's

408
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 3: I don't know what to do here? I need your help.

409
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 2: My father and I didn't have the best relationship, but

410
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 2: he was in Florida and my mom was in Thailand.

411
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: I didn't have anyone to call.

412
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 3: Well, so you're really all alone. I mean, that's it's

413
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: a tough thing to face, no matter how much support

414
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 3: you have. But that I think that obviously contributed to it,

415
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 3: because I have to believe that if you had, especially

416
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 3: you know, parents, you know, who were educated as you did,

417
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 3: I would certainly hope that they would have intervened. But

418
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 3: this is really the perfect storm.

419
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 5: And did they ask you not to talk to anyone

420
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 5: between days or after?

421
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: On the third day after the confession, they asked me

422
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: not to talk about it to anyone because they didn't

423
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 2: even know if I could be if anything could happen

424
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 2: with this. The FBI, they then had to go to

425
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 2: Korea with a confession and say, hey, we have a confession.

426
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,239
Speaker 2: What do you want to do with this? Do you

427
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,959
Speaker 2: want this person to come back to Korea to go

428
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 2: to trial to possibly face you know, time for a

429
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 2: crime that was committed on your soil. Come to find out,

430
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,200
Speaker 2: they didn't really even have permission to come and speak

431
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 2: with me. It was still a Korean case and they

432
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: shouldn't have been talking to me. So after the confession,

433
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 2: that's why it took me about three weeks to get

434
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 2: arrested because everything took so long, asking for permission, coming

435
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 2: back and saying well, why were you even talking to her?

436
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 2: And so I wasn't arrested until February twenty eight, even

437
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: though this interrogational questioning happened February sixth.

438
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 5: And in that time, you didn't talk to parents, friends,

439
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 5: counselor lawyer.

440
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 3: It's amazing.

441
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 5: So all those external reality cues that will normally rerain

442
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 5: you in she didn't have those.

443
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 2: No, my friends knew that I was upset. I mean

444
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 2: after the confession, they gave me a bottle of water

445
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: and a Snickers bar, and so I'm holding on this

446
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 2: Snicker for hours, and I went to a friend's house

447
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 2: and I was just sitting on their couch. But I

448
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: couldn't tell them.

449
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 3: I mean, here, you are a young girl nineteen, right,

450
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 3: overwhelmed with three FBI agents, right, And when you say FBI,

451
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 3: I think all of us feel like WHOA Like FBI's

452
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 3: still carries that connotation, even while we know they're flawed

453
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 3: human beings like everyone else, but their FBI agents. We

454
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 3: want to believe in the FBI. We want to believe

455
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 3: that they are you know, good, Yeah, you know, like honorable,

456
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 3: higher standard everything else. Right, But we know from when

457
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 3: Saul and I were talking, we were all talking about

458
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 3: this before we came in the studio. We know from

459
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 3: examples like the Madrid bombing and others that important to

460
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 3: note that in the Madrid bombing case, and they ended

461
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 3: up arresting a lawyer from Oregon and the FBI claimed

462
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 3: they had their man and the fingerprints, manch and all

463
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 3: this other stuff, and turnouty'd never been to Madrid and

464
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 3: he was acquitted. They can be as dead wrong as anyone.

465
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,239
Speaker 3: And there's tons of proof of this now. I mean,

466
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 3: there's that study that came out of several years ago,

467
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 3: right about the hair analysis. Yes, and do you want

468
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,239
Speaker 3: to talk about that for a second, because I think

469
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: while we're on the subject of a FBI, let's get

470
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 3: that off our chest. Yeah.

471
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's interesting when when police, including the FBI,

472
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 5: form a judgment a presumption of guilt, it biases the

473
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 5: way they view other kinds of evidence. And in fact,

474
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 5: there's a whole lot of research now that psychologists have

475
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 5: done in the laboratory and in the field showing that

476
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 5: when you bring forensic examiners in and insert a presumption

477
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 5: of guilt or presumption of innocence into their analysis, whether

478
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 5: that analysis is to make a handwriting judgment or a

479
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 5: fingerprint judgment, or a judgment about tire tracks or bite marks.

480
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 5: You can alter their judgment by giving them contextual information.

481
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 5: Do those two stimulus patterns match well? If the suspect

482
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 5: confess they did? And so what happened in Kenzie's case,

483
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 5: in some ways is even worse. There was no physical

484
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 5: evidence that linked her. In fact, there was every indication

485
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 5: that there were one or two men involved in this murder.

486
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 5: Male voices were heard screaming at about the time of

487
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 5: the murder, A male was seen running from the motel

488
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 5: with blood on his pants at about that time. There

489
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 5: was every indication that this was a crime, and a

490
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 5: man to go back to Kenzi a year later because

491
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 5: they failed to solve the crime just made no sense.

492
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 5: There was no physical evidence. When you look at the

493
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,959
Speaker 5: photos of the crime scene and how bloody it was,

494
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 5: it's inconceivable that that could have happened and not a

495
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 5: trace of that blood remained on her clothing. Inconceivable.

496
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: I was in the exact same clothes while I was

497
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: in the police station in Korea, from the night before.

498
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: It was in the same clothes, and I didn't have

499
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: any blood on my pants, or I wouldn't have been

500
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 2: able to leave Korea in the first place. Not to

501
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: mention my shoes, I only had one pair of shoes

502
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: with me in Korea, and I was wearing them the

503
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: entire time. I was in the police station and with

504
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: the Army CID, and they still let me leave the country.

505
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 2: And only a year later did they come back and

506
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: talk to me.

507
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 5: So there was no physical evidence, There were no witnesses.

508
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 5: Kenzie had no background of violence. She was a class

509
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 5: A student aspiring to be a teacher. There was absolutely

510
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 5: no basis for suspicion when they called her out of

511
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 5: the blue to talk to her in West Vine, Virginia.

512
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 3: And not only was there I mean we say there's

513
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 3: absence of evidence, there actually was evidence in the opposite direction, right,

514
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 3: I mean you could say that if there's no blood

515
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: on your clothes and you're accused of beating someone to death,

516
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 3: that should be dispositive, right, that should actually be like, Okay, well,

517
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 3: let's rule her out and keep it moving and go

518
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 3: find out who did this.

519
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 5: And just for the record, Korean police working with Army

520
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,239
Speaker 5: investigators because there were a lot of military guys in

521
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 5: the bars that night and nearby that motel. So the

522
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 5: army investigators became involved along with Korean police, and they

523
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 5: did dismiss Kenzie as a suspect. It was over when

524
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 5: she went home. It was one year later when the

525
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 5: FBI became involved that suddenly everything changed.

526
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 3: Do you think that anyone, or all three or none

527
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 3: of the FBI agents believed going into that room that

528
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 3: she was guilty?

529
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 5: The human mind is an interesting thing. I'm not a

530
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 5: mind reader. I don't know whether they were coldheartedly closing

531
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 5: a case without any regard for the truth, or whether

532
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 5: they had convinced themselves through their investigation that, in fact,

533
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 5: she must be the culprit. I don't know the same

534
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 5: mechanisms you described earlier that led the FBI to misidentify

535
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 5: fingerprints in the Madrid bomber case led these agents to

536
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 5: misidentify her as their suspect. And once a presumption of

537
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 5: guilt kicks in, what happens next is anybody's guests. They

538
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 5: can make that reality their own.

539
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 3: And Kenzie, I know this is difficult for you to

540
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 3: talk about even now, eighteen years later, and I mean,

541
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 3: I can understand that as well as someone can understand

542
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 3: it who hasn't been through it. But you were then

543
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: arrested three weeks later and taken to jail.

544
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 2: Correct.

545
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: Here you are one day, you're working with troubled kids,

546
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: making your way in the world, dealing with the normal

547
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 3: stresses of a twenty year old. I'm sure you know

548
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 3: doing good, right, more so than I was in your age.

549
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: And the next thing you know, you're in jail for

550
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 3: something you didn't do, but you don't even know if

551
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: you did it anymore. I mean, what And you were

552
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 3: there for ten months, right?

553
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 2: I was there for ten months, which allowed me to

554
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: It was a long time, but it allowed me to

555
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: kind of separate those memories from and get more confident

556
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: in the fact that I know that the memories that

557
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 2: I had going into that hotel room that day are

558
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: the real memories. And I was able to separate a

559
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: little bit from that confession, but it still wasn't complete.

560
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: Even by the time of the extradition hearing, I still

561
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: hadn't completely removed that understanding that the confession wasn't real.

562
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: And I think at my hearing, I think I said

563
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: something along the lines of not by the memories that

564
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: I hold true when they asked me if the confession

565
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: was real, so I still had some cloud around it.

566
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: And so the.

567
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: Extradition hearing itself that happened actually in October of that year,

568
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: was basically just asking was Kinsey Snyder in Korea at

569
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: the time, so it's not even a guilt or innocence. Yes,

570
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: I was in Korea. So then you are sent over

571
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: to Korea itself and then you go through their legal proceedings.

572
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until I went back to Korea now

573
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: after the extradition, and they wanted me to reenact some

574
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: of the images. The Korean police wanted me to go

575
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: back to the hotel room and reenact the confession. And

576
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: I walked into the hotel room, and at that point

577
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 2: I knew one hundred percent that that confession was completely wrong,

578
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: and I didn't do it because none of the still

579
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: images that I had in my head matched that hotel

580
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: room in the way that confession worked out didn't make

581
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: any sense anymore. And so at that point I felt

582
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 2: a lot more empowered, a lot more confident again, a

583
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: lot stronger. And the Korean police didn't like that so

584
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: much because they were really hoping I would reconfess in Korea,

585
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: and they got mad at me because you had a

586
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: ten day period where you were talking to the police

587
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: again and they were going over the evidence again and reinterviewing,

588
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: and they really wanted a confession then, and they kept

589
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: asking me, well, when did you do this? And I

590
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: said I didn't. I did not kill Jamie. And at

591
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: one point one of the police officers said, well, quld

592
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: say that? Say something different? Because I was as I said,

593
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: I felt more in control again at that point, and

594
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: I refused, even though they told me that if I

595
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: confessed again at this point, it would be easier on

596
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: me and I would probably only be looking at seven

597
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,959
Speaker 2: or eight years versus looking at the death penalty if

598
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: I went to trial and I lost. But I didn't

599
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: want to lose that control again. I have to look

600
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: at myself every day in the mirror, and I couldn't

601
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:44,959
Speaker 2: lie again, and I knew that confession was a lie.

602
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: So were you in custody in South Korea? Yes, And

603
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: that's got to be I.

604
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: Can't imagine it's not being in jail in the United States.

605
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: We don't treat our inmates like their people, and so

606
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: when I got to go to Korea while it was different,

607
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: and that's something I would want to do again. There's

608
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 2: still a sense of humanity in their prisons, in their jails.

609
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: Interesting, Yeah, that's well said. We don't treat our inmates

610
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: like their people. We flip a switch. As soon as

611
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 3: you're in the system. You're no longer human.

612
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 2: You're just a number now.

613
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's weird because if that's the right way

614
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 3: to do it, then we have to ascribe to the

615
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: theory that Americans are worse people than any other people

616
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: in the world, right, that were among the most evil

617
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: people in the world, and that we need to be

618
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 3: treated like subhumans. But it starts before you're convicted.

619
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: Well, it even starts in the jails. If we believe

620
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: that you're innocent and to proven guilty, then if you

621
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: want to treat people like they're not people, that should

622
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: be in prisons, if you're going to do it at all,

623
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: I'm not saying you should. But in jail, supposedly you're innocent.

624
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: So then why are we starting then.

625
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: Well, you shouldn't. It should never start.

626
00:31:58,720 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: You shouldn't start.

627
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's more and more awareness of

628
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: that now and there's a lot of movement with correction

629
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: officials going to European countries and learning about how they

630
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: did over there, and there's a reason why their recidivism

631
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 3: rate is a tiny fraction of arts. It's because they

632
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: treat their people who are incarcerate over there like human

633
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 3: beings and they come out and what do you know,

634
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: they adapt better and they end up not reoffending. And yeah,

635
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: but that's, like I said, that's a whole other subject.

636
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: So it's interesting that you went back to the room

637
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: where this gruesome crime occurred and that's what really crystallized

638
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 3: in your mind that you could not have done this.

639
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: It's just fascinating as to how the brain works. And

640
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: doesn't you know. I'm reading this wonderful book called Burned.

641
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it's wonderful. It's terrible also, but it's an

642
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: amazing book by Pulitzer Prize winning author and Them Humes,

643
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: and it's about an arson case, terrible case Juliane Taylor

644
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: in California. But in it he talks about memory and

645
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: how it can be manipulated. And you know, one of

646
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 3: the things I read was either there in New Yorker

647
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 3: story about the Nebraska case. Recently where six people falsely

648
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: confessed to the brutal rape and murder of an old woman,

649
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 3: and many of them, I think all but one, actually

650
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 3: came to believe that they did it, even though DNA

651
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: proved with an error rate. They said in the article

652
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 3: of one to nine hundred and fifty one quintillion that

653
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: the actual killer was a serial rapist murderer. But there's

654
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 3: a couple of them that's still even after an apology,

655
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: an official apology from the Attorney General of Nebraska, which

656
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 3: those are hard to come by, some of them still

657
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: believe that they had something to do with this because

658
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: they've been so totally brainwashed. But what I did read

659
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: is that I think they said that some statistic like

660
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 3: seventy percent of people can be manipulate. I don't know

661
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: how they figured this out into believing that a false

662
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 3: memory is real. You know, that's a scary number.

663
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 5: Under the right or wrong circumstances, you can get almost

664
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 5: anybody to do that. You know, you're referring to the

665
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 5: beatro six case, which is dramatic for a a whole

666
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 5: different reason. Kenzi eventually gave up on that memory, and

667
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 5: I think it's interesting as to how it happened, but

668
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 5: eventually she came to grasp reality again in the Beatrice six,

669
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 5: as you said, right on through being exonerated and receiving

670
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 5: an apology. There was a precious quote when that first

671
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 5: happened from one of those exoneries. She said something like, Wow,

672
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 5: I guess I didn't do this, because right to that

673
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 5: moment she continued to believe that she did it. And

674
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 5: so that's how powerful that process can be. And when

675
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 5: you look at a case like Kenzie's, they were drinking

676
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 5: that night, there was a lot going on. It was confusing.

677
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 5: It was a year ago now, and then the FBI

678
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 5: comes in and they start to mischaracterize the evidence and

679
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 5: it's confusing to her and she can't find a way

680
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 5: to bridge their version of reality, their version of the facts,

681
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 5: with her lack of memory of their version. She has

682
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 5: a different memory. And I believe they actually assisted you

683
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 5: in terms of how to bridge their version of the

684
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 5: facts with your memory.

685
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they said, the person who had done this may

686
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: have been feeling really guilty, but they may not have

687
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: any memory of it because it was too traumatic and

688
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 2: so the brain would have suppressed it. So to help

689
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: them let go of that guilt, and feel better. They

690
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: should confess.

691
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 3: That's what they did. In the Beatrix six case. Many

692
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 3: of those people the accused had been abused as children,

693
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: and they said, you're blocking it out the same way

694
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 3: you blocked out the abuse. I mean, they played on that.

695
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 3: That's a really sick way to go, right, to sort

696
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: of re traumatize. I mean, I don't even know what

697
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: the word is from that, but yeah, it's crazy because

698
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 3: I think most people listening at home or probably over

699
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 3: in their cars whatever, probably like, well, I could see

700
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: confusing or having a memory lapse or you know about

701
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 3: some mundane type of thing. But it's really crazy to

702
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 3: think how someone could be led to believe that they

703
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 3: someone who's never done anything violent in their life, could

704
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 3: be led to believe that they beat and stomped their

705
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 3: roommate to death. That is really scary. And we know

706
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 3: the malleability of memory and the influence. What you were

707
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 3: talking about before, which I think is such an important

708
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 3: point and why we need to have, you know, objective

709
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 3: analysts at every phase of testing, forensic testing, et cetera,

710
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 3: et cetera, is that we know from every area of life,

711
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 3: right if you even when it comes to like I

712
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 3: saw a movie about wine. I think it was Bottle

713
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: Shock or something right, where they did that test where

714
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 3: they blindfolded something well famous somoliers, and they gave them

715
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 3: like seven dollars wine and they gave them like the

716
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,959
Speaker 3: top wine from Italy or France, and they couldn't tell

717
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 3: which was which. Someone couldn't tell if it was white

718
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 3: or red with the blindfold because they told them. And

719
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 3: so we know that that wine tastes. And I'll get

720
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 3: letters from the the Vintnor's Association, right, But we know

721
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 3: that wine taste about as good as you expected to write.

722
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 3: And we know that tilanol works better than regular aspirin

723
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 3: if you know it's tilanol, right, And here I come

724
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 3: with another loss, so you'll have to defend me anyway.

725
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 3: So two of the most persuasive pieces of quote unquote

726
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: evidence that can be and are presented in courtrooms thousands

727
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 3: and thousands cents one thousand times a day, are confessions

728
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 3: and even more so I was identification. That's not the

729
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 3: case here, Ironically, those are two of the most unreliable

730
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: forms of evidence that there can be. So I guess

731
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 3: what I want to ask is for everyone that's listening,

732
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: and people have heard me say this before. Everyone that's

733
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 3: listening to us right now, at some point in the

734
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 3: future is going to get a jury duty notice, and

735
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 3: after they get over the initial grumpiness about having received

736
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: that thing in the mail, they're going to hopefully go

737
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: and show up and do their duty. And we know

738
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: that there have been cases like Jeffrey Dskovics, where there

739
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 3: were jurors who were swayed by his false confession so

740
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 3: much so that they disregarded scientific proof that was presented

741
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 3: at his original trial that proved without any doubt that

742
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: he could not have committed this brutal rape and murder

743
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: of a fifteen year old girl, and they convicted him anyway.

744
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 3: So that's an extreme case. But four jurors, when they're

745
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 3: in a courtroom and there's a confession, and they're up

746
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 3: there and they're saying nothing else, this defense attorney says

747
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 3: matters because this person is confessed, and therefore you have

748
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 3: to convict. How can somebody who's not a psychologist or

749
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: a trained expert in criminal justice, how can they interpret

750
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: that information? How can they make a better decision.

751
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 5: They need to understand what the sound and sight of

752
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 5: a false confession really is. For example, here's one single

753
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 5: statistic that should scare the hell out of everybody, and

754
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 5: it is the fact that ninety five percent of known

755
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 5: false confessions taken right out of the DNA exoneration case

756
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 5: files of the Innocence Project, ninety five percent of known

757
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 5: fault confessions contained facts about the crime that were spot

758
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 5: on accurate that the public didn't know about. And so

759
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 5: what happens when a jury comes into the courtroom and

760
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 5: they've got a defendant who said I'm innocent. They coerced

761
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 5: my statement. The jury can understand the notion of coercion,

762
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 5: but they ultimately come down to this question, Well, he

763
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 5: says he's innocent, but then how did he know those things? Well,

764
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 5: you know what, they don't know how he knowed those

765
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 5: things unless they can see an entire recording from start

766
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 5: to finish of every transaction between the police and the suspect.

767
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 5: In Kenzie's case, the FBI agent's account of what happened

768
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 5: in those three days neglected to mention that they told

769
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 5: her about repression and blacking things out. They neglected some

770
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 5: of the details that a jury would need to know

771
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 5: to evaluate that statement. So I think a jury needs

772
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 5: to know that unless you're watching the entire process, not

773
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 5: just the final production that is scripted and re hearst

774
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 5: for public consumption. But unless they see the hours and

775
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 5: hours off camera that preceded that, they can't possibly competent

776
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 5: to make a judgment of that confession. They need to

777
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 5: demand everything. And if police in one of those states

778
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 5: that requires or doesn't require recording had failed to record

779
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 5: the interrogation, the jury should react with an ultra degree

780
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 5: of suspicion. They need to ask themselves, why don't I

781
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 5: see this process? If the police are proud to show

782
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 5: their interrogation work, why don't I get to see how

783
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 5: that statement was crafted? Because unless the jury can see

784
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 5: the whole thing, they're just not in a position to

785
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 5: evaluate the statement.

786
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 3: They're just not right. And we see that in the

787
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: amazing Netflix series Now The Innocent Man, where Tommy Ward

788
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 3: and kral Font and I are still in prison over

789
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 3: three decades later, and we only see the part of

790
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: the confession that they want us to see exactly. But

791
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: we know what went on now. We know it's too

792
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: late to help them, unfortunately, but it happens too often.

793
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 3: And you know, New York State resisted for the longest

794
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 3: time recording interrogations. They said it was too expensive, expensive expensive.

795
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: It's free, it's free, It's literally free. But you just

796
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 3: hear these things and you.

797
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 5: Go, I know, we're in an audio only situation. But

798
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 5: my impulse was to pull my phone out of my pocket,

799
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 5: put it on the table and say there, we can

800
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 5: do it now.

801
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know there's that movie as well, False Confessions,

802
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: that both Saul and I are in which I encourage

803
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 3: people to look up it profiles for false confession cases,

804
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: and it really shows you, down and dirty, how terribly

805
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 3: flawed this process is. And at the end of the day,

806
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 3: if you don't know, you have to acquit because it

807
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 3: says so in the Constitution, not because I think so,

808
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 3: but because it says so in the Constitution. They have

809
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 3: to prove guilt without a reasonable doubt. That's not the

810
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: standard that we hold anymore. It doesn't seem like that,

811
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: it doesn't hold up in the justice system. And you know,

812
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 3: and of course there's that quote, wasn't it Benjamin Franklin

813
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 3: that said it is better than one hundred guilty men

814
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 3: go free, than that an innocent should suffer. William Blackstone, Oh,

815
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 3: William Blackstone, damn I quoted that in the podcast before

816
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 3: William Blackstone said that, yeah, so yeah, and it's certainly

817
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 3: again with Kenzie here living proof that it can happen

818
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 3: to anyone. I mean, strangely enough, fortunately for you, the

819
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 3: Korean justice system functioned. We can't prove this, but probably

820
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 3: better than ours would have. So now we get to

821
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 3: the vindication. Right, and you had three of those, right,

822
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: I mean, they just kept stamping your thing like nope, nope,

823
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 3: nope that I mean, and I mean, how did that feel?

824
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 3: And you know, and how did it feel coming home?

825
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: And it felt great to get the you know, the

826
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: first hearing, the judge was saying it and I had

827
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: to wait for the translator. So the people in the

828
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: courtroom had reacted, but I didn't know how or why

829
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 2: they were reacting, like is this in my favor or not?

830
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: And then I heard the translator said innocent and it

831
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 2: wasn't even they did. She didn't say not guilty, she

832
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: said innocent. And I don't know if that's a translation error,

833
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: but it felt so good to hear that those words,

834
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: but I still my mom came rushing at me. She

835
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 2: was able to be there in Koree at the time.

836
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: And I went to her and we got a hug,

837
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: but the courtroom, the bailiff kind of had to separate

838
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: us because I still had to go back to the jail,

839
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: this time not in handcuffs, but I wasn't really free

840
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: for another twelve hours. They had to wait for a

841
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: fax from the courthouse. So when I got back to

842
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: the jail after my innocence verdict, everyone was asking me, well,

843
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 2: how long did you get how And I said, no,

844
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 2: I'm going home, And they're like, what do you mean

845
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 2: You're going home. People don't go home from here. People

846
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: shouldn't be in jail. They didn't do a crime. Why

847
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: you mean you're going home? And I said, I didn't

848
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: do it. I get to go home, and so I

849
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: got to say goodbye to the people that i'd spent

850
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 2: spent about four and a half months in a room

851
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 2: with fifteen other women and so formed some bonds and

852
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: we got say goodbye to them. And then at ten

853
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: or four pm on June nineteenth, I got out.

854
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 3: So there were three separate verdicts, though were you held

855
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 3: in between those verdicts?

856
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: I was not held in between, but I didn't I

857
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 2: technically didn't have a visa I wasn't allowed to work,

858
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: and I was in limbo. The prosecutor when I hadn't

859
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: appealed the case. I think it's they're just expected to.

860
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's an honor thing. I said.

861
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to work. My mom did come to

862
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: the country during that time, and so she got a

863
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: work visa and I had There was a pastor who

864
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 2: would visit me on Tuesdays. Every day. We had seven

865
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: minutes visits and he would come in every Tuesday and

866
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: we would talk. And when I got out, he was

867
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: really really supportive, he and his family, and he found

868
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: someone who donated an apartment to us, donated our rent.

869
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 2: Otherwise I would be an immigration in jail. And then

870
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: October I got another innocent verdict, and then it was

871
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 2: appealed to the Supreme Court. And at that point I'm

872
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: still in Korea. They had my passport, I didn't have

873
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 2: permission to leave, and my brother was getting married at

874
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: the end of December, and I asked permission if I

875
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 2: could go home, and they said if I would sign

876
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 2: a letter that would waive extradition if I was found guilty,

877
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 2: they would let me go home. So I wrote that letter,

878
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 2: and then it was still almost three years later that

879
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: I finally got the official Supreme Court of South Korea

880
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 2: said that I was innocent. So weird, I mean limbo

881
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: all that.

882
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 3: Time you were in limbo in South Korea.

883
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 2: For I was in limbo for about six months in

884
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 2: South Korea and then went back home and was still

885
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: in limbo in the States, waiting on a verdict, not

886
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: knowing if I would have to go back to Korea.

887
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 2: I had a gap in my work histories. The finding

888
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 2: a job was incredibly hard. All of my credit cards

889
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: had defaulted, maxed out and defaulted. Student loans had.

890
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 3: Defaulted, right, so there was more trouble waiting you. And yeah,

891
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: then that is a very strange state of being in

892
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: the Twilight zone, right, You're over there in this eastern

893
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: country where you can't work, so you can't make money,

894
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 3: and you can't go home, and you can't do anything.

895
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: And I was an efficial tourist. Yeah that's all I

896
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: could do.

897
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: But you would have had to sleep on the streets. So,

898
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 3: like you said, go to immigration and jail. If not

899
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: for the fact of the kindness of strangers and the

900
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 3: fact that your mom was able to be supported the

901
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 3: way she was before we get to the closing, and

902
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 3: I want to hear about what you're doing now and

903
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 3: how you're doing now, and you know all that stuff.

904
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 3: But I want to ask Saul and Patty. When I

905
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 3: started doing this podcast, my goal was to help to

906
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 3: prevent as many wrongful convictions going forward as I can

907
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 3: by teaching people or educating people, I should say as

908
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: to how and why they happen, and to give people

909
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 3: an idea of what to look for if they're on

910
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: a jury, and what some of the dos and don'ts

911
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 3: if you're arrested or even picked up and not arrested

912
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 3: as Kenzie was. So you know, being that we have

913
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 3: two experts in the room, I would love to get

914
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 3: your take on both of those two topics, and together

915
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 3: we can hopefully prevent the next Kenzie from going through

916
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 3: what she did. So, if you want.

917
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 5: To go first, sure, I think that's a noble and

918
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 5: very important mission. I think one thing we learned from

919
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 5: Kenzie's case, and this gets at a strength of the

920
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 5: Korean justice system that in contrasts to a serious weakness

921
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 5: of the American system. She had the surge of relief

922
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 5: when they took her back to the crime scene. She

923
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 5: looked and she said, WHOA, that's not the memory they

924
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 5: gave me. That doesn't fit. In Korean law, if a

925
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 5: suspect confesses to police and recant the confession and won't

926
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 5: reenact it and won't restate it to the prosecutor, it

927
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 5: didn't happen. And yet in the US, when behind closed

928
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 5: locked doors without recording, police claimed that a suspect confessed

929
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 5: and then that suspect immediately recance the confession and won't

930
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 5: restate it and won't plead guilty and won't re enact it,

931
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 5: that suspect has done already the damage that will get

932
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 5: him or her convicted. And so I think there is

933
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 5: buried in this story about comparing two systems. Problem with

934
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 5: the American system. The only way Kenzie could have stepped

935
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 5: out of that situation intact was to invoke her right

936
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 5: to silence, to invoke her right to an attorney. That's

937
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 5: all she could have done, because once she is alleged

938
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 5: to have confessed, even if she recants it and will

939
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 5: not restate it, the damage has been done.

940
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 7: Well, I'll touch on the other topic about what should

941
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 7: we do to make people aware. I'm trying to figure

942
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 7: that out out and I'll report back in a year

943
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 7: with concrete findings. But I think just telling more stories

944
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 7: like this so that number one people accept that it's

945
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 7: a thing that happens more often than you probably think,

946
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 7: and just focusing on the person. I think, on a

947
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 7: person to person basis rather than on trends, because it

948
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 7: becomes clear once you hear each individual story, It's a

949
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 7: lot more clear as to how that confession happened than

950
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 7: speaking in statistics and things. So I think focusing on

951
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 7: the individual stories is really important.

952
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: That's my hypothesis.

953
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 3: It's a scary system, and you know, we're here to

954
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 3: try to, you know, help turn the tide, and media

955
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 3: plays an important part in it. You're studying that. Now,

956
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 3: what have your studies so far shown about the effective

957
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: podcasts on an opinion of civilians.

958
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 7: We're just starting, so we started off looking at Netflix documentaries,

959
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 7: but so far we are seeing that that there is

960
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 7: a certain type of person that's number one likely to

961
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 7: watch these kinds of documentaries to begin with and also

962
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 7: know more about interrogations. We're trying to figure out as

963
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 7: to whether these people are just more knowledgeable and then

964
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 7: they watch these documentaries or whether the documentaries are doing

965
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 7: the educating, so podcasts is the next step. So I

966
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 7: don't know yet. And actually you brought up my exact

967
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 7: dissertation question earlier. In that question, you posed about why

968
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 7: is it that people can be presented with scientific findings

969
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 7: or logic but still kind of hold on to that

970
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 7: gut reaction towards a confession. So you can tell someone

971
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 7: and I maybe there's research where you give them all

972
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,240
Speaker 7: the information about wrongful convictions and it makes them more

973
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 7: critical of evidence, but it doesn't necessarily change their overall

974
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 7: verdict decisions. So I'm trying to figure out why.

975
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 3: Well, it's good that you're doing the work, and you know,

976
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: I think too we should mention that, you know studies.

977
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 3: My friend Josh Dubin was involved in the study. It

978
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,919
Speaker 3: showed that there's an inherent bias among normal people who

979
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 3: become jurors that if they see someone present it to

980
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 3: them as a defendant, whether it's in the box or

981
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 3: whatever it is, eighty percent of people have a natural

982
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 3: assumption that they're guilty or they wouldn't be there. And

983
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 3: we have to correct that because there shouldn't be any presumption.

984
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 3: You should come in as a blank slate in understanding

985
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 3: how often these things go wrong. So before we turn

986
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 3: to closing remarks, Kenzie, how are you? What's going on now?

987
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 3: How are you doing? You seem like like a little

988
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 3: orb of light. But I, you know, think I'm not

989
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 3: a minder. I'm not even a psychologist. I'm going with here.

990
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: That isn't overall I'm good. I'm good. I do have

991
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 2: hard days and hard times year February and March with

992
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 2: the confession and the murder itself, that's a hard time

993
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: a year, But overall I'm good. I'm a mom. Now.

994
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 2: I have a six year old.

995
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,479
Speaker 3: Boy, what's his name?

996
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: His name is Garrik. I get emotional talking about him

997
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 2: because I think about how this could affect him, how

998
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 2: my past still to this day, eighteen years later, will

999
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 2: still like bump into things. People will hear about it

1000
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 2: or google it, or they'll see it. Sometimes the show's

1001
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 2: on syndication, and it'll affect how people treat me. And

1002
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: some friendships have been lost because of it, and sometimes

1003
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 2: there's some trickle down effect to him. But overall good.

1004
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: It's hard trying to rebuild and people will have difficulty

1005
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 2: getting past the confession. Even if I was found innocent,

1006
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 2: That doesn't matter. They still think why would you have

1007
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 2: said said you did something that you didn't do, especially

1008
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 2: why did you kill your friend? And so it kind

1009
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: of follows you around like you have to monitor your

1010
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 2: behavior all the time. You can never get too angry,

1011
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 2: you can never get too upset. You have to when

1012
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 2: do you tell this with new people that you've met,

1013
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: Like you you have to gauge your relationship with them.

1014
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: Am I going to see them again? Do they need

1015
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: to know about this? If you wait too long, then

1016
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 2: they feel like you violated their trust, because why didn't

1017
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 2: you tell this to me before? Before you came into

1018
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 2: my house, before I saw you every day at school.

1019
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: So you're always having to monitor your reactions and your relationships.

1020
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 5: When I first talked to you about whether you want

1021
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 5: to come out and do this, you said something about

1022
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 5: your son and the loss of a play date. Can

1023
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 5: you say something about that, because in a funny way,

1024
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 5: I think that just says so much.

1025
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 2: It was one of the things I had arranged a

1026
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 2: play date, and so my son had gone over to

1027
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: their house and they were playing, and it's you know,

1028
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 2: gauging when do I tell this to someone? And now

1029
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 2: I was in their home, and I felt that I

1030
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 2: know if someone came into my house, I would want

1031
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: to know who is coming into my home. So I

1032
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 2: had shared this story a little bit, and that person

1033
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,879
Speaker 2: was no longer available for play dates, just wouldn't return

1034
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: phone calls or texts or messages, just stopped.

1035
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 3: I actually have one more question, Are you better?

1036
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 2: I'm not. I think life is too short to be bitter.

1037
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: I do get angry at times that they feel that

1038
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,399
Speaker 2: they have the right to do this to someone's life,

1039
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: because it's not just my life that's affected. That's also

1040
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: the Penwick family who hasn't gotten the proper closure that

1041
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 2: they need. This is a person out there who has

1042
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 2: killed someone and is not in jail or prison for

1043
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,760
Speaker 2: having committed that crime. And I think I'm not bitter.

1044
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 2: I get angry about it, though, but I'm not letting

1045
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 2: what they did to me ruin the rest of my life.

1046
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 3: We'll glad you're doing well and wish you all the

1047
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 3: best for the future. And now we come to my

1048
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 3: favorite part of the show, which is and you're familiar

1049
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: with this since you listen to the show, so you're ready.

1050
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 3: A lot of people come on and never heard it,

1051
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 3: so this takes them by surprise. But this is a

1052
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 3: part of the show where I thank each of you,

1053
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 3: Kenzie of course, Kenzie Schnyder, and Patty Sanchez and Professor

1054
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,399
Speaker 3: saulkass And for being here and taking your time and

1055
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 3: sharing your thoughts. And now I get to stop talking

1056
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 3: and listen. And so I'm going to go in order.

1057
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 3: I guess we'll start with Patty and Saul, and then

1058
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 3: you can Zie for just final thoughts.

1059
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 7: Final thoughts, understand that humans are flawed, and you are normal,

1060
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 7: no less flawed than general people. I've noticed there's a

1061
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 7: lot of people consuming these things saying like, oh yeah,

1062
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 7: I would always be able to tell a part something,

1063
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 7: or like I'd be able to tell true and false.

1064
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 7: And I think we all just humble ourselves a little

1065
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 7: bit and admit that we're all vulnerable and we're all

1066
00:55:54,840 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 7: susceptible to being manipulated and being okay with that and

1067
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 7: understand it, and so that we can be aware and

1068
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:04,959
Speaker 7: always get a lawyer.

1069
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 5: All that's good, You always get a lawyer. Part I

1070
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 5: would have led with. But you know, false confessions. I've

1071
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 5: been looking at them for god knows how long. I'm

1072
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 5: not going to tell you because I don't want to

1073
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 5: reveal my age. But it wasn't that long ago when

1074
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 5: people said doesn't happen, and I would say never, never,

1075
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 5: doesn't happen. I would never confess to a crime I

1076
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 5: didn't commit. Now I think some of that is changing.

1077
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 5: The problem is that what people see and hear a confession,

1078
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 5: what they're seeing and hearing is a story. It's a narrative.

1079
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 5: This is what I did, this is how I did it,

1080
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 5: this is why, this is what it felt like, this

1081
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 5: is what the victim may have looked like or said.

1082
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,320
Speaker 5: It's a story from start to finish. Kenzie's is no exception.

1083
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 5: If you read her so called confession, it is a

1084
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 5: narrative from start to finish. It's chronology, that is the

1085
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 5: sight in the sound of a false confession. And so

1086
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 5: it's very important for people to understand that absent corroborating

1087
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 5: evidence taken independent of that confession, and absence seeing the

1088
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 5: process by which that confession was taken, you are in

1089
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 5: no position to make a judgment. And the reason I

1090
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 5: think that's important is Kenzie's case illustrates something disturbing. Eighteen

1091
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 5: years ago, she gave a confession. She was then acquitted,

1092
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 5: She was then acquitted again, She was then acquitted again.

1093
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 5: The fact that eighteen years later she is feeling the

1094
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 5: effects of the stigma that has not detached itself from her.

1095
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 5: She gave a confession, but she has never been convicted

1096
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 5: of a crime. It doesn't matter to some people. She

1097
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 5: is guilty by virtue of the fact that she confessed,

1098
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 5: and they will never see her actual innocence. People need

1099
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 5: to get past it, people, And that's why I think

1100
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 5: Patty's proposed studies looking at whether or not a podcast,

1101
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 5: for example, can raise public awareness and make people more

1102
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 5: discerning jurors, is so important because we're flailing a bit

1103
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 5: trying to find ways to raise public awareness. I've been

1104
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 5: working top down, trying to convince the courts, the judiciary

1105
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 5: to reform the system in ways that makes sense. But

1106
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 5: you know what, that's just too slow, and there are

1107
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 5: more victims every day, and so maybe what we need

1108
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 5: to do is work from the bottom up and create

1109
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 5: a ground swell of public awareness and a ground swell

1110
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 5: of support. You know, I think making a Murderer, the

1111
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 5: Central Park five, The Confession Tapes, Demand, the Knox documentary,

1112
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 5: your podcast series on wrongful convictions, those are I think

1113
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 5: essential tools for raising public awareness and making people more

1114
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 5: critical consumers of their criminal justice system.

1115
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 3: Canzi.

1116
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 2: I was hesitant to do this podcast because of how

1117
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 2: it could affect my life now, but Saul had mentioned

1118
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,439
Speaker 2: something and he said maybe a future juror would hear this,

1119
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 2: and I wanted to help someone keep them from this

1120
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 2: happening to them. I think that's important. The biggest thing

1121
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 2: that I would say is get a lawyer. I know

1122
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 2: everyone thinks it's a false confession. That would never confess

1123
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 2: to something that I didn't do, And I know it

1124
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 2: sounds crazy, but no one goes into the room with

1125
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 2: law enforcement expecting to leave with a confession to a

1126
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 2: crime they didn't commit. So get a lawyer. Law enforcement agents,

1127
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 2: they are doing their job. They're not your friend. Don't

1128
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 2: trust them. Make sure you have a lawyer on your sign.

1129
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 3: And before we close, Saul, I want to do sadly,

1130
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 3: I want to do an immemoriam because there's a case

1131
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 3: that was profiled in the movie that you and I

1132
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 3: both appeared in, called False Confessions, and can you talk

1133
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 3: a little bit about because it actually has an eerie

1134
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 3: resemblance to Kenzie's case, and that he was never convicted.

1135
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 3: He was actually in jail for almost exactly the same

1136
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 3: amount of time in America. Anyway, He was an exchange student. Yes,

1137
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 3: and he died you know recently. You know, you could

1138
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 3: say he died of a broken heart. But can you

1139
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 3: talk about that case a little bit.

1140
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, his name was Multi Thompson. He was twenty or

1141
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 5: twenty one years old when he came to the US

1142
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 5: to New York to work as a teacher in a preschool,

1143
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 5: a high end preschool near the United Nations. He came

1144
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 5: from a family of teachers and educators just Kenzie was

1145
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 5: aspiring as well to be a teacher, and some way

1146
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 5: through the school year, another employee went to the school

1147
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,959
Speaker 5: and said they saw him touching the children inappropriately, which

1148
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 5: seemed inconceivable given the layout of the room and the

1149
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 5: fact that there are always multiple adults at any given moment.

1150
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 5: But they watched for a while and saw absolutely nothing.

1151
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 5: Turns out that the person who accused him of that

1152
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 5: had made similar allegations earlier in the year about others,

1153
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 5: so the school proceeded to dismiss her. She went to

1154
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 5: the police department and she reported it. The police ended

1155
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 5: up in Malta Thompson's door early one morning, about six am,

1156
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 5: picked him up, interrogated him for seven or eight hours,

1157
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 5: and took from him a confession. The interrogation was not

1158
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 5: courted on audio or on video, and the result of

1159
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 5: that seven or eight hours of off camera interrogation was

1160
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 5: that they convinced Malti Thompson to go to the district

1161
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 5: Attorney's office and give a videotape statement. And the opening

1162
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 5: of his videotape statement, I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like

1163
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 5: it has come to my attention that I've done a

1164
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 5: bad thing. Apparently they told him falsely that they had

1165
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 5: surveillance video footage of him touching the children inappropriately. That

1166
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 5: was a lie. But he's from Denmark and he doesn't

1167
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 5: know that police are allowed to lie, because in Denmark,

1168
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 5: as in most other Western civilized countries, police are not

1169
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 5: allowed to lie.

1170
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 3: But he was.

1171
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 5: Delivered that lie, and so, like Kenzie, he had to

1172
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 5: presume that this must be true. I don't recall doing it,

1173
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 5: and so he gave a confession to the district attorney

1174
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 5: on camera. He was sent to Rikers Island for several

1175
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 5: months while the case worked its way through the system.

1176
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 5: Nobody would corroborate, none of the children would corroborate, and

1177
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 5: they had to ultimately drop the charges. He went home

1178
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 5: to Denmark. He had a lawyer who settled with the

1179
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 5: city for some I don't know what the settlement figure was.

1180
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 5: And you and I saw him in the film. If

1181
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 5: you see the film, what you will see as an

1182
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 5: individual who is depressed. And this was years later, and

1183
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 5: so the fact that he died recently according to the family,

1184
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:29,919
Speaker 5: he died of a heart attack, as at twenty seven

1185
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 5: years old, is just sad beyond belief. But you can

1186
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 5: see in the movie he can't even break open a smile.

1187
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 5: This affected him and had never left six seven years later.

1188
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 5: I don't know what was going through his mind. I

1189
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 5: don't know what goes through Kenzie's mind, but I know

1190
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 5: that people who are induced into giving confessions to crimes

1191
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 5: they didn't commit are constantly self reflecting. What was I thinking,

1192
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 5: what was I doing? How could that have happened? And

1193
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 5: that's what makes these stories so important to tell.

1194
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 3: Rest in peace. Thank you everyone for listening to Wrongful Conviction.

1195
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 3: We'll see you next week. Don't forget to give us

1196
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 3: a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps.

1197
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 3: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

1198
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 3: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1199
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 3: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

1200
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,680
Speaker 3: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

1201
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 3: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

1202
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 3: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

1203
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 3: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

1204
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 3: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

1205
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 3: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

1206
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 3: is a production a Lava for Good Podcasts and association

1207
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 3: with Signal Company Number One.

1208
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 2: Then The Blinding That Word m