Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on
Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Bloomberg Sound On. I'm
Speaker 2: Joe Matthew in Washington, where there are a couple of
Speaker 2: us left. Sixty one senators showed up for votes last night,
Speaker 2: seventeen of them Republicans. We're done here appears to be
Speaker 2: the signal. John Thune, talking with Bloomberg not gonna happen,
Speaker 2: he says about a deal potentially on the border that
Speaker 2: kept everybody here over time. The quote he gave to
Speaker 2: CNN no way on a Ukraine border deal, even a
Speaker 2: cloture vote apparently happening this week. The Democrat at the
Speaker 2: negotiating table, Chris Murphy, still somewhat optimistic, bringing us up
Speaker 2: to date on this seemingly endless saga.
Speaker 3: I know it's maddening to hear us say we continue
Speaker 3: to make progress without a product. That is in part
Speaker 3: because of how difficult this set of law is, and
Speaker 3: even when you have an agreement in principle, writing it
Speaker 3: and coming to an agreement on the writing is hard.
Speaker 2: There is that matter of writing the legislation, but we
Speaker 2: can't even get to a deal. And Mitch McConnell says,
Speaker 2: you know, it's going to take a while to read
Speaker 2: this thing when you guys get done. So we're looking
Speaker 2: at next year.
Speaker 4: Here's the Minority leader, Republicans will not make up or
Speaker 4: others showing up late to the table, a boy waiving
Speaker 4: our responsibility to careful and negotiate and review any agreement
Speaker 4: before voting on it.
Speaker 2: With the headline on the terminal Senate Republican shut door
Speaker 2: on quick Ukraine aid border deal. And that's where we
Speaker 2: begin our conversation with Congressman Ami Bera, the Democrat from
Speaker 2: California six back with us here on Bloomberg's sound on in. Congressman,
Speaker 2: it's good to see you. I'm glad you're with us.
Speaker 2: I wonder from what you're hearing as a member of
Speaker 2: the House through the grapevine, this is all over right.
Speaker 2: There's no eleventh hour Christmas miracle kind of a deal
Speaker 2: that's going to emerge this week on the border.
Speaker 5: You know, Joe, thanks for having me on. I think
Speaker 5: it's unlikely that there's anything before.
Speaker 6: The end of the year.
Speaker 5: But you know, we just heard Senator Murphy from Connecticut
Speaker 5: you talk about it. I do think there is progress,
Speaker 5: and I think we're we should have a deal that
Speaker 5: first week of January that when we get.
Speaker 2: Back well, that's my gosh, very optimistic, knowing that Congressman
Speaker 2: has not just been this battle. This has been a
Speaker 2: debate for the better part of thirty years on Capitol Hill,
Speaker 2: and it's been walked up to the line more than once,
Speaker 2: and it never became law. What is different this time
Speaker 2: is that the urgency behind Ukraine that brings Democrats to
Speaker 2: the table in a way that did not before.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's the urgency to continue to support
Speaker 5: our friends in Ukraine and their battle against Vladimir Putin.
Speaker 5: I think certainly the Israeli support is important as well.
Speaker 5: In addition, I think it's important for us to get
Speaker 5: humanitarian aid to Gaza in the Middle East and certainly
Speaker 5: to Ukraine. But the crisis on the border is very real,
Speaker 5: and I think, you know, many Democrats understand that we
Speaker 5: have to do something to strengthen our border security. You
Speaker 5: get through the backlog and asylent cases, et cetera. And
Speaker 5: I think the one big difference is, you know, the
Speaker 5: President and his team is at the negotiating table right now,
Speaker 5: and I think that's going to be helpful.
Speaker 2: Do you have a sense not being in the room.
Speaker 2: I realize John Thune's not in the room either, But
Speaker 2: to the extent that you're hearing about this what the
Speaker 2: sticking points are because you do have a Democrat in
Speaker 2: Chris Murphy at the table. Kirsten Cinema now an independent
Speaker 2: former Democrat, though good at making deals, is at that table,
Speaker 2: and James Langford appears to be a credible negotiator. With
Speaker 2: the White House now involved, Where does this come down to?
Speaker 2: Is it defining asylum law or is it more granular?
Speaker 6: You know, I think it's a little bit of everything.
Speaker 5: So on the House side, I hear my Republican colleagues
Speaker 5: really saying you've got to take HR two, which is
Speaker 5: that our House immigration build. That would be a non
Speaker 5: starter for most Democrats, if not all Democrats, But there
Speaker 5: are elements in an HR tw that you probably could take.
Speaker 5: That'll mean you'll lose some of the Freedom Caucus folks,
Speaker 5: some of the far right on our side, you know,
Speaker 5: we will have to make some changes to the asylum
Speaker 5: laws and so forth. That'll, you know, lose some of
Speaker 5: our most progressive members, perhaps some of the members in
Speaker 5: the CHC the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, which requires moderate Democrats
Speaker 5: and Republicans to come together and put a deal together.
Speaker 5: And I think that's where the sticking point is. I
Speaker 5: think it is helpful that the President is kind of
Speaker 5: laying out how he sees the border, and I think
Speaker 5: he recognizes that it is a real issue. And you're
Speaker 5: seeing big city mayors who are also grappling with a
Speaker 5: lot of these asylum seekers who are going to Chicago,
Speaker 5: New York, et cetera. We've even had some come here
Speaker 5: to Sacramento, and you know, trying to figure out, Okay,
Speaker 5: how do we manage this.
Speaker 2: Well, this all, of course means a longer wait for
Speaker 2: Israel and Ukraine, for that matter, Taiwan the supplemental funding
Speaker 2: request that would be tied to a border deal. Congressman,
Speaker 2: you're hearing a lot more than most As a member
Speaker 2: of the Foreign Affairs Committee, as I mentioned the Intelligence committees,
Speaker 2: how worried are you about Ukraine as we go into
Speaker 2: this new year, not knowing when funding will resume.
Speaker 5: You know, I think it weekends our standing in the
Speaker 5: world that we didn't get the Supplemental done. That said,
Speaker 5: the fact that we did get the Defense Authorization Bill
Speaker 5: out of the House and Senate and the President should
Speaker 5: sign it this week. That does have funding both for Ukraine,
Speaker 5: you know, there's ways to continue to support Israel. It
Speaker 5: also does have funding for Taiwan and a pretty large
Speaker 5: amount in there to help make sure our friends in
Speaker 5: Taiwan can continue to defend themselves. That said, we don't
Speaker 5: have a lot of time, and you know, I hope
Speaker 5: one of the first things that we do when we
Speaker 5: get back in January is take up the Supplemental Bill
Speaker 5: with Ukraine funding, with Israel funding, what's your panetarium aid,
Speaker 5: with Indo Pacific funding, and with border security and get
Speaker 5: that done. So I'm confident that folks in the Senate
Speaker 5: are going to continue working through the holiday. We're ready
Speaker 5: to weigh in on the House side as we need to,
Speaker 5: and then hopefully as soon as we get back, we
Speaker 5: have that ready to go.
Speaker 2: Spending time with Congressman Ami Berra here on Bloomberg's sound On,
Speaker 2: I have to ask you about the hot war underway
Speaker 2: between Israel and Hamas at the same time realizing this
Speaker 2: is less of a money issue or a funding issue,
Speaker 2: and it's become a very very divisive political issue for
Speaker 2: Democrats for this administration supporting Israel and what some see
Speaker 2: a disproportionate response to what happened on October seventh. We
Speaker 2: talked about this a couple of months ago, Congressman, and
Speaker 2: I wonder where you are now. We have a new
Speaker 2: poll out today from the New York Times in Siena,
Speaker 2: and it's showing problems consistent with other polls for Joe Biden,
Speaker 2: particularly among young people eighteen to twenty nine year olds,
Speaker 2: disapprove the way that the president is handling this conflict.
Speaker 2: Where are you right now?
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, obviously the acts that take place on October
Speaker 5: seventh were Hanus and what Hamas did. Israel will prosecute
Speaker 5: a war against Hamas. But all the video imagery of
Speaker 5: innocent civilian lives, the humanitarian crisis that's unfolding Gaza is
Speaker 5: also taking a toll. And I think a lot of
Speaker 5: young people are seeing these images on TikTok, on Instagram, etc.
Speaker 6: And it is.
Speaker 5: Making them question what we're doing in Israel. That said,
Speaker 5: it is really complicated. We'll stand by our allies in Israel,
Speaker 5: but as friends.
Speaker 6: Sometimes have to do.
Speaker 5: And I think you're seeing the President of Jake Sullivan
Speaker 5: and others, you know, really messaging to the Israel's.
Speaker 6: That it's time to start wrapping up this phase of
Speaker 6: the war.
Speaker 5: They'll continue to prosecute a campaign against the mospait, let's
Speaker 5: do it in a more precise way using special operators,
Speaker 5: et cetera. And let's shift now to saving innocent kids,
Speaker 5: innocent older folks. You know, there's a humanitarian crisis unfolding.
Speaker 5: Lack of food, lack of clean water. My staff was
Speaker 5: talking to the doctors without borders. They don't have antibiotics,
Speaker 5: and so many people are dying just of secondary infections.
Speaker 5: And that's not war. That's entirely preventable. Let's save those lives.
Speaker 2: There's an important headline I was just reading on the
Speaker 2: terminal here the President of Israel as a Kursaw telling
Speaker 2: ambassadors from around the world that they are prepared to
Speaker 2: agree to a second pause, a second truce if it
Speaker 2: means the return of more hostages held by Hamas. Is
Speaker 2: that a real, realistic overture at this point, I know
Speaker 2: the CIA director is back. Abroady is in Warsaw right
Speaker 2: now working on a potential truce. Will that happen potentially
Speaker 2: over the holiday here?
Speaker 6: I certainly hope so.
Speaker 5: I mean that would be important to get the hostages
Speaker 5: back and then as part of that truce to get
Speaker 5: needed food, antibiotics, medications, fuel to run the remaining hospitals
Speaker 5: that you know, I don't think there's that much left
Speaker 5: clean water. I mean, these are you know, folks are
Speaker 5: going to die of starvation, die of diarrhea, et cetera.
Speaker 5: And those are vives that we can save. And I
Speaker 5: say that as a doctor again. Israel will prosecute this war.
Speaker 5: But if we can get a humanitarian positive, we can
Speaker 5: get some of the hostages back, and if we can
Speaker 5: save some of these lives, that would be great.
Speaker 2: You are a doctor, a former practicing physician, the former
Speaker 2: chief medical officer for Sacramento County congressman. When the gates
Speaker 2: finally open again and humanitarian aid can move in of Gaza,
Speaker 2: what is it they will need most?
Speaker 5: You know, they will need clean water immediately. Ninety six
Speaker 5: percent of the water in Gaza, as I'm told, is undrinkable,
Speaker 5: and just the amount of folks that are getting cholera,
Speaker 5: getting creatable infectious diseases, and then starvation. I mean, you're
Speaker 5: hearing really bad reports that they're running out of food
Speaker 5: in Gaza. And again, the aid trucks are there. We
Speaker 5: just have to open, get more crossings open, get that
Speaker 5: aid in there and make sure it's getting to the
Speaker 5: civilians and getting to the right folks.
Speaker 6: And again, I think everyone's ready to step up.
Speaker 5: We introduced a resolution last week to really encourage the
Speaker 5: President to continue to push for that humanitarian aid.
Speaker 2: In the meantime, we've got a very serious situation in
Speaker 2: the Red Sea. As we hear the Defense Secretary announcing
Speaker 2: this new maritime task force to protect commercial vessels, many
Speaker 2: of which have stopped traveling through the Red Sea to
Speaker 2: these persistent attacks from houthy militants in Yemen. To what
Speaker 2: extent will this task force make a difference? Congressman, is
Speaker 2: this something your committee is focused on?
Speaker 6: It is, And again I.
Speaker 5: Think the President, very early in this conflict, was decisive
Speaker 5: of moving assets into the region, aircraft carriers and other
Speaker 5: support assets to make sure this conflict didn't broaden. We've
Speaker 5: talked to our friends, the Saudi foreign ministers in Washington
Speaker 5: d C. Last week as well as the foreign ministers
Speaker 5: from Tetter and Jordan and Turkey meeting with with Secretary Blincoln,
Speaker 5: but also met with us on the House and you know,
Speaker 5: along with trying to figure out how to end the
Speaker 5: conflict in Gaza, and the day after we did discuss
Speaker 5: how to continue to keep these maritime straits that that
Speaker 5: are super important in terms of commerce open, how to
Speaker 5: make sure you know, we kept Lahuci rebels out of this,
Speaker 5: and you know, it is something that we're actively thinking about.
Speaker 2: Is the US going to strike targets in Yemen? Go
Speaker 2: to the source to stop us from happening?
Speaker 6: You know, again, that might be one way to stop it.
Speaker 5: Right now, I think, you know, we're protecting the ships
Speaker 5: and doing what we have to do. But if this escalates,
Speaker 5: I can certainly see a scenario where we have to
Speaker 5: go to the source and address that at the root.
Speaker 2: Cause it's pretty important. I wonder as you talk to
Speaker 2: Democrats in the House, to democrats even more so in California,
Speaker 2: and as I mentioned, younger democrats as we've seen eighteen
Speaker 2: to thirty eighteen to thirty four depending on the poll,
Speaker 2: who say we need to stop funding this action by Israel.
Speaker 2: Is there a line that BB Netna who could potentially
Speaker 2: cross that would cause that to happen.
Speaker 5: You know, I'm not a Nanyaho supporter, and yeah, I
Speaker 5: think he's made some real great errors that have led
Speaker 5: us to where we are today. You know, when I
Speaker 5: talk to some of my Palestinian American constituents who have
Speaker 5: lost relatives, friends, and you know, it's heart wrenching as well,
Speaker 5: just as when I talk to some of my Israeli
Speaker 5: constituents and Jewish American constituents. How I approach it is
Speaker 5: that the Israelis need to do everything that they can
Speaker 5: to minimize innocent civilian lives.
Speaker 6: And I think it's a reasonable question to.
Speaker 5: Ask how they're prosecuting this war and see if they
Speaker 5: can do it in a more precise way. War is
Speaker 5: horrible and we're seeing the horrors of war. The other
Speaker 5: thing that I say to young people is the one
Speaker 5: thing we can do is make sure innocent civilians don't
Speaker 5: die of starvation, of lack of clean water, lack of
Speaker 5: access to medications. That's not war, that's compassion and humanitarian need.
Speaker 5: And that's something that I really do push the Israelis
Speaker 5: to allow more crossings to open and to get that
Speaker 5: aid in there to prevent people from dying from eminently
Speaker 5: preventable causes.
Speaker 2: Congressman, I feel like I should call you doctor. It's
Speaker 2: great to see you again, Ammi Bera. Thank you for
Speaker 2: joining and I hope this holiday season is great for you.
Speaker 1: Happy New Year.
Speaker 2: I hope we'll see a lot more of you in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. From California's sixth to sound On, Amy
Speaker 2: Barrow will assemble our panel next Genie Shanzino and Lester Munson.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast.
Speaker 1: Catch the program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio,
Speaker 1: the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa
Speaker 1: from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play
Speaker 1: Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: How many issues can you imagine? Senators jd Vance, Josh Holly,
Speaker 2: and John Fetterman coming down on the same side and
Speaker 2: actually is happening right now, which is kind of remarkable,
Speaker 2: And I want the panels take on this as jd
Speaker 2: Vance and Josh Holly send a letter to the Biden
Speaker 2: administration urging they move to block this deal that sees
Speaker 2: a Japanese company buying US steel. This is a huge
Speaker 2: headline from the past twenty four hours. If you're a
Speaker 2: stock trader, you probably know about a big day for
Speaker 2: US steel, and of course we know where they are based.
Speaker 2: John Fetterman, of course, fashions himself a steel man, speaking
Speaker 2: in a video from his hometown in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 7: Here he is, I'm standing on the roof of my
Speaker 7: home right here in brad Pennsylvania, right across the street
Speaker 7: from the Edgar Thompson Plan, and I just have to
Speaker 7: say it's absolutely outrageous that they have sold themselves to
Speaker 7: a foreign nation and a company can't do that. Steel
Speaker 7: is always about security as well too, and I am
Speaker 7: committed to doing anything I can do for on using
Speaker 7: my platform on my position in order.
Speaker 6: To block this.
Speaker 2: He's right, Steele is about security, and I want to
Speaker 2: assemble the panel for their take on this. Genie Shanzano
Speaker 2: is with us today Bloomberg Politics contributor Democratic Analysts, joined
Speaker 2: by Republican strategist Lester Munchett Monson from BGR Group. Lester,
Speaker 2: are they onto something here?
Speaker 1: I don't know?
Speaker 2: If the Biden administration is going to move to try
Speaker 2: to squash this deal, this is Japan's Nippon Steal again,
Speaker 2: buying US steal one of the most iconic companies in
Speaker 2: American history. Do you think Holly Vance and Fetterman will
Speaker 2: stop it.
Speaker 8: I don't know that they will. They will certainly cause
Speaker 8: a stir. I think the thing they have stumbled on
Speaker 8: is called xenophobia, so they seem to have that in common.
Speaker 8: It's unclear to me why a business deal with an
Speaker 8: allied country would be somehow bad for American security. We're
Speaker 8: as closely allied to Japan as we are to anyone.
Speaker 8: The economics and the steel industry are difficult under the
Speaker 8: best of circumstances. It is a good thing that Americans
Speaker 8: can invest in assets abroad. It is a good thing
Speaker 8: generally that folks in other countries can invest here in
Speaker 8: the United States. So I'm generally speaking rather opposed to
Speaker 8: this criticism, subject to some of the details of the
Speaker 8: Dale coming out, But for sure the politics are benefiting
Speaker 8: populous on both sides.
Speaker 2: This is interesting. The United Steel Workers urging US regulators
Speaker 2: to scrutinize the fourteen billion dollar deal, a Genie. Are
Speaker 2: these politicians driven by xenophobia or national security?
Speaker 9: You know, I hope it's not xenophobia. I think they
Speaker 9: are probably driven by the fact that they all have
Speaker 9: close connections in their states with these unions and these workers.
Speaker 9: I mean, let's not forget we're talking about, you know,
Speaker 9: the Pittsburgh Steelers. You know, this is an one hundred
Speaker 9: and twenty year old plus company in the United States.
Speaker 9: It's an iconic company. This is thirty seven hundred workers.
Speaker 9: And while we hear that they will Nipon will agree
Speaker 9: to abide by all the labor agreements, those are enormous concerns.
Speaker 9: So I think, you know, it's it's there's a lot
Speaker 9: of nostalgia there. There's a lot of politics there. On
Speaker 9: the flip side, I do agree with Lester. You know,
Speaker 9: we are not in World War two. Japan is one
Speaker 9: of our closest allies. We would hope this isn't xenophobia.
Speaker 9: And we also can't forget that Nipon has a handprint
Speaker 9: of footprint in North America already. They have plants, they
Speaker 9: have space and places like West Virginia, Indiana, Mexico, so
Speaker 9: they are you know, closer. I think Southern United States,
Speaker 9: they are closer. I think that people maybe realize, but
Speaker 9: this is certainly getting a lot of play. It is
Speaker 9: bipartisan because of the politics surrounding Pennsylvania. It's going to
Speaker 9: be very curious to see even what Biden has to
Speaker 9: say and the administration has to say about this deal
Speaker 9: as we march into the twenty twenty four election.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, particularly with his affinity for the United steel Workers Union,
Speaker 2: Where do you think this goes politically? Then in a
Speaker 2: campaign year, Lester, you know Donald Trump's going to weigh
Speaker 2: in on this, speaking of xenophobia.
Speaker 8: Well, Trump's going to weigh in. I expect Shared Brown,
Speaker 8: the incumbent senator in Ohio, who I believe is up
Speaker 8: for reelection next year, to be outspoken on this at
Speaker 8: some point as well. So it'll be interesting to track theirs.
Speaker 8: I do think it's notable that, you know, we're getting
Speaker 8: this populist reaction from both parties. There seems to be
Speaker 8: no home for kind of the sensible support for business
Speaker 8: management in the United States anymore, and that kind of
Speaker 8: makes me think maybe there's an opportunity for a third
Speaker 8: party here. Gosh, next year might be more interesting than
Speaker 8: I think.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you the of industry has had a
Speaker 2: pretty heavy hand when it comes to antitrust. This FDC
Speaker 2: has been busy, Genie, do you think that the White
Speaker 2: House would have a problem with this in principle?
Speaker 9: You know, I think they are going to want the
Speaker 9: deal and the parameters of the deal closely scrutinized. I
Speaker 9: think they are going to be supremely concerned about the
Speaker 9: impact on labor, as you mentioned, given how close Joe
Speaker 9: Biden is and how much he depends on it. And
Speaker 9: let's not forget, you know, just back to the politics
Speaker 9: of this as it pertains to labor. These are states
Speaker 9: where the margins of winning and losing are sometimes in
Speaker 9: the thousands over the last several election cycles, as you
Speaker 9: look at Pennsylvania and Michigan. So they want to be
Speaker 9: very careful not to step on any support they might
Speaker 9: otherwise have. And I think that's what we're going to
Speaker 9: see them vying for. And you know, the reality is
Speaker 9: is that this deal also there are a lot of
Speaker 9: questions being asked about, now, why MEPON is paying you know,
Speaker 9: what is it fifty fifty five dollars per share, which
Speaker 9: most people say is an over payment and so I
Speaker 9: think it would be really incumbent on Fetterman and Vance
Speaker 9: and you know, any of the other senators and skeptics
Speaker 9: to say, what are the national security concerns here? You're
Speaker 9: hearing some things about chips and others. Those need to
Speaker 9: be brought out, and they need to be brought out now,
Speaker 9: because again, the deal, they were hoping to finalize it
Speaker 9: in just a matter of a few months by mid
Speaker 9: twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: Just wait for those hearings. In our last moment here, Lester,
Speaker 2: who's going to win the Union vote in this presidential election?
Speaker 2: Will it be a Democrat or Republican?
Speaker 8: Well, you know, I think Joe Biden needs it to win.
Speaker 8: Donald Trump stole that vote from from Democrats in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 8: and Joe Biden got enough of them back in twenty
Speaker 8: twenty to win to defeat Trump. I mean, is a
Speaker 8: little bit more complicated in that, but that's the They're
Speaker 8: both going after that demographic, there's no doubt, and I
Speaker 8: would look for both sides to be making you know,
Speaker 8: they're going to look to drive out their supporters in
Speaker 8: that constituency, So they're going to make more and more
Speaker 8: extreme statements and be more and more demagogic on this
Speaker 8: issue in order to drive their voters to the poll.
Speaker 8: So I don't think that's helpful when it comes to
Speaker 8: good government.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast Catch us
Speaker 1: Live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on
Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Things are moving today. I don't know how we even
Speaker 2: got here already, because Kaylee Linees is sitting with me,
Speaker 2: so I know it's ours too good to see you. Likewise,
Speaker 2: this is an important day, I guess in coming to
Speaker 2: terms with reality. Senators, as I said earlier, have one
Speaker 2: foot out the door all of sixty one next you
Speaker 2: just showed up to vote last night. So this idea
Speaker 2: of having some grand breakthrough in a deal emerging that
Speaker 2: will actually vote on seem it pretty thin right now.
Speaker 10: Seems like it's not going to happen. I think we
Speaker 10: can say that with a great deal of certainty at
Speaker 10: this point.
Speaker 2: So I've not gone out at a limb here.
Speaker 10: No, I think jet fumes are in the air. So
Speaker 10: I read a lot of people just didn't get on
Speaker 10: the jet back to Washington in the first place, but
Speaker 10: there is some business they can take care of in
Speaker 10: the next couple days before they wrap up the year
Speaker 10: twenty twenty three in terms of congressional business, including the
Speaker 10: Senate today possibly actually going to finally, once and for all,
Speaker 10: put an end to this blockade that Tommy Tubberville, the
Speaker 10: Senator from Alabama, had going.
Speaker 2: For so long, which would have the guy would be
Speaker 2: almost a year in on this now.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: If they get it done, we're down to eleven four
Speaker 2: star generals. Correct if you listen to or watch Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Sound on, you know a lot about this story because
Speaker 2: we've talked about it a lot, and I'm you know,
Speaker 2: the remarks from General Panaro are still echoing here in
Speaker 2: the studio among many others. We've talked to Republican and
Speaker 2: Democratic lawmakers who have been outraged about this and railing
Speaker 2: about it on the air, and it appears that this
Speaker 2: is finally the day. As painful as it has been,
Speaker 2: it comes to an end.
Speaker 10: Assuming they haven't it. If they get it done, people
Speaker 10: there to actually get these you need.
Speaker 2: Enough people to show up. Yeah, that's the I guess
Speaker 2: the idea. So let us not predict let's bring the
Speaker 2: general in. Arnold Panaro is back with us, retired two
Speaker 2: star Marine Corps general and former staff director of the
Speaker 2: Senate Armed Services Committee, so we has a bit of
Speaker 2: an idea of how this stuff works. General, it's great
Speaker 2: to see if is this going to be the day
Speaker 2: we look back on Tommy's last stand?
Speaker 11: Well, Joe and Kaylee, I sure hope so, but I
Speaker 11: don't know because Senator Schumer, after they finally got Senator
Speaker 11: Tuberville to back down and we got four hundred of
Speaker 11: our flag and general officers approved, like you said, almost
Speaker 11: a year, very very negative impacts on our military leadership
Speaker 11: during that period. We have eleven four stars and some
Speaker 11: of them are the top war fighting commanders that we
Speaker 11: need to get in place.
Speaker 12: Because we tell the.
Speaker 11: Mothers and fathers that we're going to pet their sons
Speaker 11: and daughters. They give us an uniform, will be the
Speaker 11: best trained, the best quip, and the best lad And
Speaker 11: he's holding up the best lead and he wasn't even
Speaker 11: in town.
Speaker 12: So if he's holding it's by remote control.
Speaker 11: And so Schumer either has to get cloture me if
Speaker 11: Tubberville won't agree to unanimous consent, or he's got to
Speaker 11: get a unanimous consent agreement where they can just be
Speaker 11: voted on by voice voting.
Speaker 12: You know, with Senator Tubberville, you never know.
Speaker 11: He kind of the last thing we heard from him publicly,
Speaker 11: he was still holding his ground. And let's just hope
Speaker 11: as Kaylee said that they started smelling the jet fumed
Speaker 11: right after Thanksgiving to do nothing. Congress has done absolutely
Speaker 11: nothing in the weeks they should have done leading up.
Speaker 12: But let's hope we get these eleven through again. Three
Speaker 12: of them.
Speaker 11: Are the top warfighting commanders of our top military units.
Speaker 10: Okay, so assuming general that they can get this done.
Speaker 10: If we're leaning here on the side of optimism at
Speaker 10: this point, if everyone is to be confirmed, we can
Speaker 10: call this Tubberville blockade over. How much of the damage
Speaker 10: that was done is not able to be recovered from,
Speaker 10: if you will, or is this something we can really
Speaker 10: put in the rear view the military moves forward with
Speaker 10: not too much permanent damage done to it. As an institution, we.
Speaker 12: Can't put it in the rearview mirror. And it's not over.
Speaker 11: He can put his hold on again because we have
Speaker 11: more nominations coming in every week in the US Senate,
Speaker 11: and so we don't have any agreement looking forward.
Speaker 12: In number two, the military will never put this in.
Speaker 11: The rearview mirror because they've been politicized. He used them
Speaker 11: as political pawns over a policy that he disagreed with,
Speaker 11: that he had nothing to do with, and it's rumbled through.
Speaker 11: I'm over in the Pentagon a lot I'm talking to
Speaker 11: you know a lot of folks that are still on duty,
Speaker 11: and they are not putting this in the rearview mirror
Speaker 11: at all. It's had a really negative impact on morale,
Speaker 11: on readiness, not just on the people in uniform, but
Speaker 11: on their families and their children.
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like we may not be done with this,
Speaker 2: depending on what the Senator from Alabama decides to do
Speaker 2: early next year at general. I wonder if you share
Speaker 2: the frustration on top of all of this that many
Speaker 2: Ukrainians feel that military aid that they say is badly
Speaker 2: needed within weeks as they run out of money, is
Speaker 2: locked up in a debate over our border with Mexico.
Speaker 2: Should this emergency funding be tied in with that type
Speaker 2: of domestic policy.
Speaker 11: Well, Joe, let me just say that this has been
Speaker 11: one of the most disappointing things I've seen in the
Speaker 11: almost fifty years I've been working the Hill and working
Speaker 11: these issues. Because we're going into the new year, and
Speaker 11: the national security as it relates to Ukraine, as it
Speaker 11: relates to support to Israel, as it relates to additional
Speaker 11: support to Taiwan, as it relates to increasing security on
Speaker 11: our borders, and this it relates to having a full
Speaker 11: year defense appropriation for our own Department of Defense. We're
Speaker 11: not going to be getting any sugar plums and our
Speaker 11: stockings this year. We're gonna get big lumps of coal.
Speaker 11: Because the do nothing Congress has done absolutely nothing. They're
Speaker 11: gonna go into the new year. They have no agreement
Speaker 11: on the top lines, they have no deals worked out
Speaker 11: on this supplemental that where Ukraine, for example, has already
Speaker 11: said they've run out of artillery, and so we are
Speaker 11: in a very very bad situation.
Speaker 12: Those of Congress has been divving and not getting their
Speaker 12: work done.
Speaker 11: And so I think the political reality is we've got
Speaker 11: a serious national security issue on the border. It's going
Speaker 11: to be tied to funding you for Ukraine, and nobody's
Speaker 11: going to be able to get around that. So they
Speaker 11: just need to suck it up and get their work done.
Speaker 10: Okay, Well, general, this really has been cast as competing
Speaker 10: national security interests, if you will, there's a messaging battle
Speaker 10: kind of happening. On the one side. You have Republicans
Speaker 10: saying you have to address national security issues at home
Speaker 10: first the US border before you go and give more
Speaker 10: money to defend another country's border. Speaking here of Ukraine,
Speaker 10: do you is that argument valid or are the stakes
Speaker 10: here when it comes to what a potential Russian victory
Speaker 10: in Ukraine could mean for the global order just too
Speaker 10: high for that kind of argument.
Speaker 11: Look, look the seriousness and the adverse impacts. The Wall
Speaker 11: Street Journal had an editorial today. We're one of their
Speaker 11: most distinguished columnists. We're tired now, but he writes every
Speaker 11: once in a while, said, one of the big winners
Speaker 11: in twenty twenty three is Putin because he basically the
Speaker 11: economic sanctions haven't hurt him. The West is tiring out.
Speaker 11: We couldn't get the final funding for Ukraine finished before there,
Speaker 11: he sees. And again, if Putin was to win in Ukraine,
Speaker 11: it would send a signal to China, to North Korea,
Speaker 11: to Iran to be even more aggressive than they've already been.
Speaker 12: So while the border security is important.
Speaker 11: I don't see it at the same level, in the
Speaker 11: same drastic consequence that would occur, you know, if Putin
Speaker 11: was to win in Ukraine.
Speaker 12: And right now again the Wall Street Journal.
Speaker 11: Very conservative newspaper, is given plaudits to Vladimir Putin.
Speaker 2: Quite a dangerous world we're living in here general, because
Speaker 2: we can keep going as I I want you to
Speaker 2: what's happening in the Middle East and specifically this new
Speaker 2: task force to manage what's happening in the Red Sea
Speaker 2: where we're seeing commercial shipping come to a halt based
Speaker 2: on persistent attacks from these Houthi militants in Yemen. Is
Speaker 2: it time for the United States to strike at the source?
Speaker 12: Absolutely?
Speaker 11: I mean, look, freedom of navigation is an essential element
Speaker 11: of worldwide commerce, particularly for the United States of America.
Speaker 11: That's why we don't want China to basically have domain
Speaker 11: over the South China Sea, where five trillion dollars of
Speaker 11: the world economy moves through there every year. The Red Sea,
Speaker 11: the Straits, and hermos Panama Canal, the sus Canal, these
Speaker 11: have got to be these waterways have got to be
Speaker 11: kept open, and frankly, it's ridiculous that basically we are
Speaker 11: allowing these one hundred thousand dollars drones to go after
Speaker 11: high ships and go after these large tankers, and we're
Speaker 11: spending two million dollars per missile to shoot them down. Frankly,
Speaker 11: where I come from in the military, you go to
Speaker 11: the source, and you know the hoodies or down in Yemen,
Speaker 11: right down at the bottom of the Red Sea. We
Speaker 11: should be taking out their sites where they're firing these
Speaker 11: missiles from. That's a lot safer way and a lot
Speaker 11: less risk to our ships into the tankers than basically
Speaker 11: trying to shoot them down in the air where they're
Speaker 11: on the way there. As a young second lieutenant in Vietnam,
Speaker 11: my main mission as a marine platoon commander was the
Speaker 11: interdict the interdict the ho Chi mintrail where the Chinese
Speaker 11: brought supplies into the South. And I had this silly notion,
Speaker 11: I said, well, why don't we try to stop them
Speaker 11: up north when they're still in China coming through North
Speaker 11: Vietnam so we don't have to fight with our Banets
Speaker 11: when they get here right into our face. Well, what
Speaker 11: we ought to be doing with the Huti rebels is
Speaker 11: taking out their sites where they're firing on our ships
Speaker 11: before our ships one hundred thousand dollars missile. Then it
Speaker 11: was to hit one of these billion dollar destroyers, just
Speaker 11: like happening in the First Gulf War when one of
Speaker 11: our big naval combatants had a twenty five dollars mind
Speaker 11: it did a billion dollars worth of damage. It's just
Speaker 11: way too risky to do the way we're doing it now. Certainly,
Speaker 11: we should have freedom of navigation and keep these roterways open,
Speaker 11: but we should take the fight to the Uti rebels
Speaker 11: where they're firing the missiles.
Speaker 10: Well, generally you just described as the Hooti rebels as
Speaker 10: being isolated, and yet aren't they a proxy for Iran,
Speaker 10: which is potentially a much greater threat. And I just
Speaker 10: wonder if the US were to take that kind of
Speaker 10: of direct action, if that actually escalates the threat of
Speaker 10: this turning into a wider regional conflict.
Speaker 11: Well, Kaylee, I meant isolated geographically. They're located in other words,
Speaker 11: meaning they would not be hard for our TAC dogs
Speaker 11: to find them. They're isolated geographically in a small part
Speaker 11: of Yaman at the bottom of the Red Sea. We
Speaker 11: do worry about escalation, but look Iran, he's been operating
Speaker 11: with impunity.
Speaker 12: They we are not deterring them.
Speaker 11: We have got to take much stronger action, not just
Speaker 11: against the Hooti rebels, but against the Iranian proxies that
Speaker 11: are attacking our forces in Iraq and Syria. And we
Speaker 11: haven't sent a strong enough message that there would be
Speaker 11: consequences to pay. And again, I don't think as Balla
Speaker 11: has not jumped in in the northern tier other than
Speaker 11: random attacks, and Iran does not want to get into
Speaker 11: a shooting war with the United States. I think the
Speaker 11: fear of escalation is not a realistic any more than
Speaker 11: I thought the fear of Putin using nuclear weapons and escalating.
Speaker 11: I think we were way too timid when we first
Speaker 11: went into Ukraine and held the Ukrainians back when they
Speaker 11: could have been attacking the Russian supply lines in Russia.
Speaker 2: Well, let's hear you out on what's happening in Israel,
Speaker 2: because the Biden administration is being told to start pulling
Speaker 2: back and delivering that message to the IDF to end
Speaker 2: this phase of the war with Hemas. Is that what
Speaker 2: needs to be done now?
Speaker 6: General?
Speaker 2: And how do you respond to the critics, And there
Speaker 2: are a lot of them, we're hearing from them every
Speaker 2: day here on the program. The administration is hearing from
Speaker 2: them as well, critics who say you can defeat Hamas
Speaker 2: without killing as many civilians in Gaza.
Speaker 11: Well, certainly, as someone that's operated in a number of
Speaker 11: wars and built up areas and combat and built up
Speaker 11: areas and urban areas is extremely difficult. Crosswith pointed that out.
Speaker 11: It always favors the defender, which is of course in
Speaker 11: this case Hamas. You can operate in these areas and
Speaker 11: minimize civilian casualties, you're not going to eliminate them one
Speaker 11: hundred percent, and I think more could be done on
Speaker 11: that front. But on the other hand, you know, both
Speaker 11: the Hoodi rebels and the Hamas they basically say death
Speaker 11: to America, death to Israel, and Hamas wants to wipe
Speaker 11: the state of Israel and all the Jews that live
Speaker 11: there off the face of the earth. And so Israel
Speaker 11: has got to basically deal with this threat. I mean, frankly,
Speaker 11: if citizens in the northern part of the United States
Speaker 11: or in the southern part were attacked from terrorists either
Speaker 11: from Canada or Mexico, the citizens of this country would
Speaker 11: demand our military to be responding. And so I think
Speaker 11: they can be more careful, but in the final analysis,
Speaker 11: combat and built up areas is a very very different
Speaker 11: You've got to root them out. And basically the only
Speaker 11: way that is really is going to basically protect their
Speaker 11: sovereignty and protect their own citizens is they're going to
Speaker 11: have to take a moss.
Speaker 12: Out where they are.
Speaker 11: And they they hide in tunnels, they hide under hospitals,
Speaker 11: they hide and protected targets, and and uh that they've
Speaker 11: given the Israeli military, Uh, no alternative but to get
Speaker 11: in there.
Speaker 12: And and and and and go, you know, in close
Speaker 12: in and counter. And that's just the bottom line.
Speaker 11: But guess what it's been like that and every war
Speaker 11: that we've been in, uh, you know, you look at
Speaker 11: World War Two, and you look at the the US
Speaker 11: of course was taken on Hitler in Japan, and look
Speaker 11: at the amount of civil Tazili's unfortunately that had to
Speaker 11: be encouraged to be able to win that war.
Speaker 12: And I'm I'm across as a war miner.
Speaker 11: But let's face it, I guarantee you if the citizens
Speaker 11: of the United States of America were at had the
Speaker 11: same risk the Israeli citizens have, they would demand that
Speaker 11: our government and our military take those threats out.
Speaker 10: All right, General, we'll leave it on that note. As always,
Speaker 10: we appreciate insight. Thank you very much for joining. Happy
Speaker 10: holidays and happy New Year to you, even if it
Speaker 10: is a year that Joe clearly could potentially still be
Speaker 10: ring great geopolitical risk and interesting to hear from the
Speaker 10: General there that the military strategic reality may be running
Speaker 10: into pretty direct conflict with the political reality of the
Speaker 10: climate here in the US. For the administration, on the
Speaker 10: one hand, Israel needs to do what it needs to
Speaker 10: do to defend itself. On the other it's getting very
Speaker 10: hard to justify the cost and civilian lives.
Speaker 2: It's a really complicated conversation. It's not going to get
Speaker 2: easier in the new year, but we will continue having
Speaker 2: it here. Kaylee, thanks again to the General. With Kaylee lines,
Speaker 2: I'm Joe Matthew. Glad you're with us. Thanks for listening
Speaker 2: to the Sound on podcast. Make sure to subscribe if
Speaker 2: you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and you can find us live every
Speaker 2: weekday from Washington, DC at one pm Eastern Time at
Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot com.