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Speaker 1: Happy ones. Today, I'm Chuck Todd. Welcome to another episode

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Speaker 1: of the Chuck Podcast. Yes, this is our third straight

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Speaker 1: day dropping a new episode. I told you it would

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Speaker 1: be a four episode week. I've got one more coming tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: So take that summer slow down, world. I will downshift

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Speaker 1: a bit in July and August, just like the rest

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Speaker 1: of the world. We'll still do a couple of week

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Speaker 1: but i won't hit you up with four. But if

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Speaker 1: you've been tuning in this week, you know I've been

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Speaker 1: in what I'm calling documentary dreamland a little bit. We're

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Speaker 1: in the heart of a big release period for nonfiction documentaries.

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Speaker 1: The DC Docs Film Festival is starting at the end

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Speaker 1: of this week. It's become a major launching pad for

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Speaker 1: documentaries that are likely going to be in the conversation

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Speaker 1: during Oscar season, both short form and feature length. And

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Speaker 1: of course, longtime listeners know this has been a passion

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Speaker 1: of mine since we started to meet the press Film

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Speaker 1: Festival some I guess that was seven or eight years ago,

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Speaker 1: now did What d C Docks is doing is even broader,

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Speaker 1: more ambitious. Continuation of the idea and the lineup this

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Speaker 1: year has been terrific, and that brings me to today's interview.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to the co directors of Prime Minister. That's

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Speaker 1: a new documentary about Jacinda Ardern. She's now the former

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister of New Zealand. But I will tell you

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Speaker 1: it's a fascinating real time political memoir. You don't get

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Speaker 1: I guess this is something I guess we can look

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Speaker 1: forward to going forward if you have more media friendly

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Speaker 1: world leaders are durn kept a personal journal. She allowed

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Speaker 1: extensive access from these directors and her look her period,

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Speaker 1: her period of leadership. It's a pretty full page. If

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Speaker 1: every world leader gets a page in the history books,

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Speaker 1: her page is pretty full. She's only a second sitting

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Speaker 1: world leader in history to give birth while in office.

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Speaker 1: She led the country at COVID happen on her watch.

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Speaker 1: That was a big part of the documentary. And she

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Speaker 1: also took pretty aggressive action in the wake of a

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Speaker 1: mass shooting in New Zealand. That christ Church shooting also

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Speaker 1: happened in her watch, and they ended up having a

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Speaker 1: passing an assault weapons ban. Of course they don't have

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Speaker 1: the Second Amendment, so to say, her time in office

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Speaker 1: was jam packed with history shaping events for New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: As an understatement. But what really struck me in watching

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister, and it's something I get into with the

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Speaker 1: directors too, is the COVID part, because I think it

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Speaker 1: really has to do with trying to figure out everybody's

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's what's with today's politics because

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Speaker 1: their COVID experience was as myopic as ours was. Right

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Speaker 1: here in the United States, we talk about how divisive

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Speaker 1: COVID was in the COVID period, but what you see

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Speaker 1: in this film is that that was the same sentiment reflected.

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Speaker 1: It was reflected frankly across the globe. We know this.

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Speaker 1: Ardarn describes the dread and tension that came with every

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Speaker 1: decision she made and the intense polarization in New Zealand

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Speaker 1: that followed. And they had never experienced that kind of polarization.

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Speaker 1: It's an island nation. They almost go out of their

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Speaker 1: way to get along. Yes, they have their disagreements, but

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Speaker 1: when you live in an island, you have your you

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Speaker 1: have limited antagonism when it comes to your disagreements. But

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Speaker 1: it was it just sort of, you know, it sort

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Speaker 1: of hit you in the head. Every country believes that

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Speaker 1: they had a the worst version of COVID politics. I

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Speaker 1: have a feeling that their divisions were the deepest in

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Speaker 1: there that they could ever remember, that their leaders faced

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Speaker 1: some of the toughest choices. Turns out that's pretty common thread, right,

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Speaker 1: that the shared frustration, the shared experience, And I'm starting

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Speaker 1: to wonder if it really was a trigger something that

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Speaker 1: was building before, but like COVID, was the trigger stick

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Speaker 1: with me here especially? You know, Democrats are trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to reconnect with the electorate, and they're

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out why does Donald Trump have success

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Speaker 1: with this electorate Because he didn't create the movement movement,

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Speaker 1: he just saw it building, He branded it, and he

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Speaker 1: rode the way. He didn't invent this resentment, he just

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Speaker 1: channeled it more effectively than anybody else had going forward.

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Speaker 1: And if you listen to my recent conversation with Steve

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Speaker 1: Bannon on the newsphere app n OO s p H

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Speaker 1: E r E, go check it out, get your free trial. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna you know, plug plug over ding ding ding,

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Speaker 1: but but check it out. It's a way for you

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Speaker 1: to hear and see the entire Bannon interview. And I

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Speaker 1: encourage that. But we got we really got deep into

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Speaker 1: the movement. And obviously he believes this is a global movement, right,

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Speaker 1: this isn't about Trump. Trump is just America's leader of

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Speaker 1: that movement. And we spent a lot of time in

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Speaker 1: the MUCKs dynamic and the tech oligarchy. But the through

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Speaker 1: line was this, the modern populist movement, both left and

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Speaker 1: right shares one core suspicion. It's a distrust of concentrated power, right,

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Speaker 1: whether it's government, concentrated bureaucracy, Corporate America, Wall Street, Silicon Valley.

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Speaker 1: In the EU it was Brussels. But that's the rally

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Speaker 1: cry right, suspicion of constant what happens when you have

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Speaker 1: too much power concentrated in the hands. You know, the

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Speaker 1: conservatives don't like it. Conservatives in general don't like it

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Speaker 1: when I feel like it's government. I think progressive don't

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Speaker 1: like it when they feel like it's Wall Street or

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Speaker 1: Corporate America. And COVID, and this is where I think, right, COVID,

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Speaker 1: it was sort of here. You already had this movement, right,

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Speaker 1: this wave was going and COVID is almost like a

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Speaker 1: created you know, stirred things up and created a tsunami,

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Speaker 1: and it accelerated this distrust. Public health response responses right

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Speaker 1: require centralized authority. But that very coordination, which was essential

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Speaker 1: in fighting the virus, essential in getting at vaccines as

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Speaker 1: fast as we got them, which is still remarkable, but

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Speaker 1: it also became that symbol of overreach, concentration of power, right,

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Speaker 1: that tension between collective good and individual autonomy. And it's

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Speaker 1: a flashpoint. And now the skepticism is deeply embedded in

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Speaker 1: our politics, and it's global in this country. Democrats can't

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Speaker 1: afford to ignore it or wish it away by just

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Speaker 1: pointing to Trump. In some ways, Trump's questionable ethics, amoral

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Speaker 1: character is a distraction and maybe a distraction to the Democrats'

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Speaker 1: inability to see what's really happening under the surface. And

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Speaker 1: they've got to engage with this. They got to understand it,

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Speaker 1: and they got to compete on this terrain. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a day. There was a David Brooks column he

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Speaker 1: wrote last week, and I found myself nodding along quite

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Speaker 1: a bit. He's been going through this same sort of

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Speaker 1: search here what are we missing? Right? And his argument

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Speaker 1: is that the Democratic parties problems are structural and that

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Speaker 1: tactical fixes and this is something we've talked about a

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Speaker 1: lot here, right, Tactical fixes aren't going to cut it,

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Speaker 1: and in some ways the closeness of this last election

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Speaker 1: might be a distraction to them. You know, the current leadership,

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Speaker 1: he argues, may not and the Democratics that may not

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Speaker 1: be equipped to hand navigate this moment. Just like as

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Speaker 1: it turns out, the Bush Romney wing of the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party just didn't have it in them to shift the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party where Trump shifted it. And whatever you think

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Speaker 1: of it, you may not like the direction, but it

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Speaker 1: turned out to be in the best interest of the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party, at least in its ability to win elections. Again,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna i I you know, I think yeah,

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Speaker 1: tariffs and I think isolationism. I think these are these

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Speaker 1: aren't These aren't going to be good for the United

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Speaker 1: States in the long run. But in trying to have

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Speaker 1: your party prepared to respond to the moment and what

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Speaker 1: the elect and the electorate's frustration, Bush Romney couldn't fit.

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Speaker 1: That Bush Romney wing couldn't figure out how to get there,

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Speaker 1: and of all people, it turned out to be Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: So Democrats and now they're the outsider party and outsider

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Speaker 1: parties have an inherent advantage, right because they too are

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Speaker 1: agreeing with the voter in the voter's anger and distrust

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Speaker 1: of say, concentrated power in the elites. So look, Democrats

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Speaker 1: are going to have to figure out how to become

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Speaker 1: the outsider party, a party that fights concentrated power in

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Speaker 1: all forms, not just going after Wall Street or Corporate America,

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Speaker 1: but also unlocking bureaucracies that seem to frustrate and not

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Speaker 1: get things done right. That you see that on the

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Speaker 1: city level, where we're arguably government bureaucracies prevent whether it's

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Speaker 1: zoning things like this, prevent or slow down progress, the

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Speaker 1: very progress that progressives are trying to fight for. On

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Speaker 1: the natal level, that's where the entro, that's where the

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Speaker 1: energy is. They're going to have to push back against

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Speaker 1: big tech, push back against big government, push back against

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Speaker 1: because this is where a Republican party is vulnerable. As

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Speaker 1: I said, and as we discussed with Bannon, the majority

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Speaker 1: of the Republican electorate is pretty maga, but not the

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Speaker 1: elected officials of the donor class. And that's part of

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Speaker 1: Trump's problem right now. That's why he's got a bill

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Speaker 1: that's going to politically be a big, fat failure for him.

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Speaker 1: There is nothing in there for his base, nothing at all,

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Speaker 1: and instead it's just tax He's just trying to keep

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Speaker 1: those tax cuts going and nobody's going to feel any new.

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Speaker 1: So it is it is in some ways that's going

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Speaker 1: to be the vulnerability that Democrats might end up taking

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Speaker 1: advantage of it, or a third party, because if Democrats

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Speaker 1: can't take advantage of this moment, then the vacuum that's

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Speaker 1: sitting out there is going to be filled by some

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Speaker 1: other entity. So it's anyway, I just I urge you

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Speaker 1: to take a listen to this interview on that front,

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Speaker 1: because I do think there's there's something here with what

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Speaker 1: you know, there's so many ways that I think we've

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Speaker 1: got to respect the fact that COVID really didn't just

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Speaker 1: change our politics, but in some ways it was politics

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Speaker 1: that was taking place, but it accelerated. You know, the

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Speaker 1: distrust was growing, the fear of concentrated power was growing,

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Speaker 1: and then COVID brought it all together, right, and it

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Speaker 1: was just this extra accelerant. You know, it was this

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Speaker 1: gasoline on the global fire here, and that appears that's

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Speaker 1: where what you can feel, that's where the Democrats suddenly

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Speaker 1: looked like the Party of the status quo. All right,

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Speaker 1: I want to do a little bit of I want

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Speaker 1: to pivot there. So that's before we get to the interview.

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Speaker 1: Pivot to a little campaign twenty twenty six update my

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Speaker 1: sort of book items. There's quite a bit out there

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Speaker 1: this week that I want to get to. It has

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Speaker 1: been a obviously, it's Wednesday morning, So what does that mean.

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Speaker 1: It was last yesterday on Tuesday, somebody was voting somewhere. Well,

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Speaker 1: we had a pretty big somewhere. We now have our

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Speaker 1: official nominees for governor in New Jersey. Mikey Cheryl, the

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Speaker 1: Democratic nominee, a national security veteran. She's sort of the

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Speaker 1: prototype of the type of candidate Democrats are desperate to

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Speaker 1: recruit in twenty twenty six. And here in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: Mikey Cheryl, who was a veteran of that twenty eighteen class,

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Speaker 1: that first Trump midterm that was able to win. Abigail

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Speaker 1: Spanberger the Democratic nominee in Virginia. Her and mike You

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Speaker 1: Cheryl very close and in many ways, there are two

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Speaker 1: gubernatorial bids here in twenty twenty five or linked. Well,

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Speaker 1: she got that nomination, but she faces somebody who came

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Speaker 1: pretty close to winning the governor's mansion four years ago.

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Speaker 1: And Jack Cheerterorelli, he has been he's he's been sort

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Speaker 1: of hugging the mega movement without being pure maga. He's

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Speaker 1: got that line. And as we know, New Jersey is

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Speaker 1: a state that we've seen, it is trending I would

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Speaker 1: say sort of a little bit towards Trump. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean and and that doesn't mean a Republican is going

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Speaker 1: to win in twenty twenty five, but it means that

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Speaker 1: I think this race is going to be a lot closer.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl and Cheeddarelli will be a lot closer than Spanburger

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Speaker 1: and Winson and the Virginia race. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll

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Speaker 1: see the Lieutenant governor went to Earl sears Is on

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Speaker 1: a you know, sort of a rollout of her biographical spot.

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Speaker 1: It's an outsider spot, so we'll see. Maybe she can

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Speaker 1: close the gap here a little bit. But I don't

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Speaker 1: know how she can go against the tide of the

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Speaker 1: angry federal workers had Donald Trump right, and so it

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Speaker 1: just feels like she's swimming against a current in Virginia

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Speaker 1: that's going to be tough. For any Republicans to swim

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Speaker 1: against in New Jersey, Well, you know, you've got a

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Speaker 1: two term Democratic governor who's term limited. He had a tough,

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Speaker 1: closer than expected reelection against the same Republican nominee. And

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Speaker 1: it's quite common. It is quite common for uh, for

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Speaker 1: quite a few governors had to lose a race for

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Speaker 1: governor as the nominee to come back and win four

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Speaker 1: years later. Maybe they were challenged to sitting and coming

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Speaker 1: like Chitdarelli did, came up short, but then had enough

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Speaker 1: name recognition to get the nomination next time, and as

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Speaker 1: an open seat, suddenly looked like the solid and safe

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Speaker 1: and secure choice. So it'll be interesting. I think the

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Speaker 1: question is how what kind of distance can Chitdarelli get

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Speaker 1: from Trump that is credible. I will say this, the

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Speaker 1: whole salt tax debate that's taking place in Congress and

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Speaker 1: the reconciliation Billy, if that gets rolled back, that will

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Speaker 1: make a lot of cranky voters in New Jersey that

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Speaker 1: could harm. So it is one of the arguments that

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Speaker 1: the Salt Caucus and the Republican side that'll be a

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Speaker 1: fairly strong argument to make. Is Hey, if you want

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Speaker 1: to strengthen the Republican brand in New Jersey. Don't lower

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Speaker 1: those salt caps. So we shall see a few other

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Speaker 1: things that have caught my eye over the last week

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Speaker 1: on my campaign notebook, if you will. It's shocking how

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Speaker 1: many Democratic candidates for US Senate and Iowa are showing up.

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Speaker 1: We've gotten our third candidate in two weeks. Zach Walls

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Speaker 1: is a state senator thirty three. He's jumping, appears to

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Speaker 1: be jumping in the race, joining Nathan Sage, the Knoxville

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Speaker 1: County Chamber of Commerce head, and JD. Shulton, who was

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty nominee in the Northwest congressional district. They're

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Speaker 1: the fourth district the old Steve King district came pretty

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Speaker 1: close once against Steve King. Sulton's also a minor league pitcher.

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Speaker 1: Even though he's in his mid forties, he's still still

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Speaker 1: is needed in the bullpen. I'm guessing he must be

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Speaker 1: a lefty. But what does it say about Joni Ernst.

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Speaker 1: There is a big belief that she's vulnerable among Democrats

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Speaker 1: out there in Iowa. I think another reason that's getting

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Speaker 1: a bunch of Iowa Democrats interested in that Senate race

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Speaker 1: is that there's going to be a strong Democratic candidate

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Speaker 1: for governor. My listeners, you guys have met Rob saying

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Speaker 1: he is he's been the auditor, the state auditor, and

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Speaker 1: he's been a Democrat that has been able to win

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Speaker 1: in big Republican years in Iowa. So we'll see with

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Speaker 1: him at the top of the ticket, he's going to

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Speaker 1: be well funded. It's an open race for governor as

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Speaker 1: Kim Reynolds decided not to seek another term, so there's

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Speaker 1: going to be a pretty concerted effort. Look, I'm very

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Speaker 1: familiar with Iowa. I've spent a lot of time covering

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Speaker 1: campaigns in Iowa. I think it's much lighter red than

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Speaker 1: what the results have shown in the last couple of cycles.

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Speaker 1: It is it is a state that wants to be

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Speaker 1: closer to the middle than the results have shown. And

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Speaker 1: I think there's a little bit of fatigue, particularly in

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Speaker 1: the state level, with with this version of Republican politics.

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Speaker 1: The you know, the the push against you know, the

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Speaker 1: push for school choice, his royal you know that is

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Speaker 1: that is a growing divide in the conservative movement among

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Speaker 1: those that live in rural parts of this country where

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Speaker 1: there just isn't many choices you know in theory, I

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Speaker 1: think these voters would like school choice. Where you're building

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Speaker 1: these schools, you know, how are you going to keep

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Speaker 1: these schools afloat to quote unquote have choice out there?

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Speaker 1: So school choice is really only viable in a suburban

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Speaker 1: or urban environment. It's just not as viable, and so

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's as been as popular in the world.

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Speaker 1: Parts of Iowa and a lot of people are feared.

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Speaker 1: This is what happened in Kansas. This is how Democrats

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Speaker 1: got competitive in Kansas was due to an overreach, particularly

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Speaker 1: on education that bit him. So the point is, boy,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of Democrats in Iowa that think

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Speaker 1: the water is going to be pretty comfortable to swim

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Speaker 1: in campaign wise, in twenty twenty six. By the way,

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Speaker 1: Zach Walls is he's thirty three, which means his social

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Speaker 1: media profile goes back to it he was a teenager.

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Speaker 1: And guess what when he was a teenage boy sixteen,

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Speaker 1: seventeen eighteen, he had the interest of a teenage boy.

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Speaker 1: It's the type of stuff that twenty years ago people

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Speaker 1: would have thought a bet a problem. I kind of

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Speaker 1: think we'll see. I think if people run against him

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Speaker 1: on these issues, that will create an immediate backlash, particularly

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Speaker 1: against younger voters. Right, I think that my guess is

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Speaker 1: this will be hands off and it won't happen. But

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Speaker 1: the only question I have is is that with all

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Speaker 1: these candidates in here, you know there's other statewide races.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if there's some If all of these candidates

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Speaker 1: are considered pretty interesting, rising young stars, potential stars, do

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Speaker 1: you see some trying to push them into say a

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Speaker 1: state treasurer's race, or does one of them end up

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Speaker 1: on the ticket as a lieutenant governor candidate. So it'll

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Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to see if this can if this

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Speaker 1: crowded Democratic Senate primary in Iowa stays that crowded. Something

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Speaker 1: caught my eye in the Minnesota Senate Democratic primary. Tina

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Speaker 1: Smith is retiring, and you're seeing this is going to

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Speaker 1: be both Michigan. The open seats in Michigan Senate and

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Speaker 1: Minnesota Senate are going to be fascinating to watch on

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Speaker 1: the left because you have there's no anointed front runner,

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Speaker 1: there's no singular candidate. So the Progressives have a candidate,

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Speaker 1: and the sort of the sort of the Centrists have

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Speaker 1: a candidate, and Minnesota is one of those Angie Craig

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Speaker 1: is somebody who she represents the second congressional district that's

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Speaker 1: a swing district. She's definitely more I would say center left.

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Speaker 1: You have the Lieutenant governor Peggy Flanagan. She's been endorsed

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Speaker 1: by Elizabeth Warren. She's definitely she is seen as more

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Speaker 1: of the mainstream progressive candidate. Well, what's going to be

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Speaker 1: interesting to see is which presidential candidates get involved in

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Speaker 1: which one of these primaries. And we already have an

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Speaker 1: interesting split. So Reuben Diego, who is a new candidate

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Speaker 1: you should be putting on your twenty twenty eight Democratic

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Speaker 1: presidential lists. The Democratic candidate from Arizona, Well, he endorsed,

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Speaker 1: publicly endorsed Angie Craig. And like I said, we've seen

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Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren. So some of these Senate primaries,

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Speaker 1: particularly in Michigan and in Minnesota, you're going to see

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Speaker 1: potential twenty twenty eight Democrats sort of try to virtue

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Speaker 1: signal where the direction they want to run in or

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Speaker 1: how they want to be viewed. You know, we saw

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Speaker 1: Pete Budagid's got involved in there's a there's a pretty

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Speaker 1: open we're seeing. We see a little bit of that.

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Speaker 1: In the lieutenant governor Democratic primary in Virginia that's taking

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Speaker 1: place later this month. You're seeing there's some progressive candidates

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Speaker 1: that that that sort of Sanders is involved with. And

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Speaker 1: then there's like LeVar Stony, the mayor of Richmond, who

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Speaker 1: Terry mccauoffe is helping. Well. Pete Buutagid's got behind that.

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Speaker 1: So he's considered quote unquote in the mainstream liberal candidate

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Speaker 1: in the race. But some of these primaries you'll see

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight ers, So just keep an eye on that.

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Speaker 1: One just caught my eye in it and it struck

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Speaker 1: me as something we're likely to see New Canada. New

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Speaker 1: potential Candida Senate candidate alert In Georgia, Derek Dooley, former

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Speaker 1: head football coach of the University of Tennessee and the

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Speaker 1: son of coaching of Georgia of Georgia football coach legend

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Speaker 1: Vince Dooley, says he's going to decide in a few

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Speaker 1: weeks whether he is going to jump into that Senate race.

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Speaker 1: Apparently he's pretty close with Brian Kemp. A lot of

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Speaker 1: Republicans haven't been satisfied with this field that it includes

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Speaker 1: Congressman Buddy Carter, the insurance Commissioner John King, Mike Collins

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Speaker 1: as well, So Derek Dooley could be the you could

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Speaker 1: see and I see the appeal. There Just a fun

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Speaker 1: little fact there. Vince Dooley in nineteen eighty five, while

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Speaker 1: he was head coach of the University of Georgia, and

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Speaker 1: before Kirby Smart, he would be considered the most successful

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Speaker 1: football coach in the history. He won a national title.

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Speaker 1: He was the most successful legendary football coach at Georgia football.

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Speaker 1: I think now Kirby Smart has surpassed him on that front,

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Speaker 1: but there's still a lot of he is beloved well.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty five, Democrats, we're trying to convince Vince

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Speaker 1: Dooley to run for the US Senate seat. There mac

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Speaker 1: maddingly was, there was a whole slew of Republicans that

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Speaker 1: won in eighty A lot of them lost in eighty six.

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Speaker 1: Democrats won the Senate in eighty six, and largely by

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Speaker 1: flipping a bunch of Southern Senate seats Bob Graham one

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Speaker 1: in Florida. He ended up with a weish Fowler ended

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Speaker 1: up winning this seat in Georgia. But before Weish Fowler

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Speaker 1: was the Democratic nominee. There was an effort to get

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Speaker 1: Vince Dooley, and Vince took a month in the summer

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Speaker 1: before the start of football season. He was still head coach.

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Speaker 1: Eddie took it seriously. Eddie thought about it and then

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Speaker 1: he decided not to run. Rumors of Vince Stooley getting

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Speaker 1: involved in politics were out there a little bit in

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Speaker 1: the nineties. His name would get floated out there. You know.

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Speaker 1: First it was with Democrats, and then of course the

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Speaker 1: conservative Democrats of the seventies and eighties sort of retired,

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Speaker 1: Vince Stoley sort of gravitated to the Republican side. So

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Speaker 1: hence Derek Dooley now being recruited as a Republican here.

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Speaker 1: But that just thought for those of you that like

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Speaker 1: your political junkie history, I thought I'd give you a

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Speaker 1: little political junkie history there. Keep an eye out. A

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Speaker 1: little something my friends at the hotline surfaced up in Louisiana.

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Speaker 1: Apparently Bill Cassidy and supporters of Bill Cassidy have quietly

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Speaker 1: been trying to convince the state legislature to get rid

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Speaker 1: of the runoff provision in the primary. Already, Louisiana got

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Speaker 1: rid of. They're going to have partisan primaries and likely

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Speaker 1: a close primary, and that's probably means Cassidy won't win.

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Speaker 1: He's going to have a tough time winning a Republican

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Speaker 1: primary against John Fleming, who is challenging him the state

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Speaker 1: treasure But you know, if there's more candidates get in

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Speaker 1: and if he can make thirty five or forty percent

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Speaker 1: of winning number without having to go to a runoff,

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Speaker 1: and that's what would happen. If nobody got fifty percent,

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Speaker 1: they'd have held a runoff. So there's some thought that

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Speaker 1: that might go away. The legislature didn't do anything yet,

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Speaker 1: but it's still potentially an open question. Just something deep

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Speaker 1: an eye on there. Before I wrap up my little

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Speaker 1: campaign twenty twenty six notebook here this week, I gotta

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Speaker 1: make a note of what's going on in Tennessee. A

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Speaker 1: suburban sort of suburban ex surban seat in Nashville that's

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Speaker 1: held by Mark green Well. He's the chair of the

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Speaker 1: Homeland Security Committee. He announced that he's going to resign

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Speaker 1: before the end of his term to join the private sector.

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Speaker 1: There'll be a special election. He said he'll resign after

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Speaker 1: the big, big Beautiful Bill is voted on because of

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Speaker 1: course after the Senate's got to come back to the House.

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Speaker 1: So he's apparently probably cut that deal with Speaker Johnson.

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Speaker 1: He probably wanted to quit sooner, and Johnson probably said

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Speaker 1: I need the votes, will you please stay until then?

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Speaker 1: So that's obviously what they negotiated. But boy, I tweeted

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Speaker 1: earlier that Mark Green feels like if you ask the

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Speaker 1: Netflix algorithm to come up with a flawed character that

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Speaker 1: was a member of Congress for a Netflix political thriller,

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Speaker 1: you might produce Mark Green. He was gonna not seek reelection,

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Speaker 1: and he ended up seeking reelection in twenty four But

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Speaker 1: is you know his wife sent a text to now

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Speaker 1: ex wife, by the way, send a text far and

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Speaker 1: wide announcing to the world that her husband was having

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Speaker 1: an affair. Got a little notoriety at the time because

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Speaker 1: she correctly noted that her husband was having an affair,

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Speaker 1: but incorrectly noted the organization that the mistress was working for,

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Speaker 1: so it created all sorts of consternation with said organization.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to sit here and repeat the mistake.

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Speaker 1: If you guys want to go down and dive into

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Speaker 1: the Google's you can go and do that. But here

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Speaker 1: he is has got a you know, he's sort of frankly,

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Speaker 1: you know, nothing unique in his personal life story. There

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Speaker 1: congressman comes to Washington, has an affair with lobbyists. I mean,

429
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: I hate to tell you that that is that is

430
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: not only is he not the first congressman to do that,

431
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: he's not the second congressman to do that. He's not

432
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 1: the third congressman. He's probably not the first congressman in

433
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: his own class to do that. It is a very

434
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: familiar path to destroy marriages for members of Congress. It's debate.

435
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure he didn't move his family. He's probably one

436
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: of those that kept his family in the district. That is,

437
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: that is a recipe for potential disaster when members of

438
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 1: Congress do that, they really ought to bring their if

439
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: they want to keep their marriages, they really ought to

440
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: bring their spouses to Washington highlight. I get it. With

441
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: small kids, there's there's lots of reasons you don't want

442
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: to do that. But but preserving the marriage is a

443
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: pretty strong reason to do it anyway. But but it's

444
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: so the so the affair stuff that is kind of

445
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: running the mill. Frankly, no offense. Congressman Green but these

446
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: wacky business deals that he's apparently floating around here about Guyana,

447
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: I think that's where I'm like, Oh, the Netflix algorithm

448
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: created a more interesting character than I expected. So that's

449
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: a fun little story. But keep an eye on this

450
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: special election. I'm sort of I'm burying the lead here.

451
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 1: It's a twenty point Republican district sixty percent Trump. But yes, okay,

452
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: this is not a district Democrats could flip in a

453
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: normal environment, hardstop. But in a special election environment, all

454
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: during twenty eighteen, they averaged an overperformance of about thirteen

455
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: percentage points. They overperformed by thirteen points in this district.

456
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: You're looking at a fifty three to forty seven race. Okay,

457
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: that's a fairly competitive race. The point is, this is

458
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: going to be a good barometer check. Okay, how Republicans

459
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: will win this special election. What's the margin? The margin

460
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: here's gonna matter. The margin is gonna tell me again?

461
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: This is you know, this is part of the greater

462
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: Nationale area. Nashville is growing like crazy. It is an

463
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: urban area that is not shifting hard to the left

464
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: the way other urban and suburban areas have. It's not

465
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: as anti Trump as other urban and suburban areas, but

466
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: it is certainly not as maga as some other parts

467
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: of Tennessee are. So I just think plus there's always

468
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: got you know, if Green does sort of leave in

469
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: this spectacular, sort of questionable ethical fashion, that will just

470
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: adds just enough cloud that could you know that chips

471
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: away and then all of a sudden, if you're overperforming

472
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: by fifteen or sixteen points, then you're just a you know,

473
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: a bad bad weather turnout day away from pulling an

474
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: upset there. So the point is is that when this

475
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: special election gets announced, and it hasn't been announced yet,

476
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: but it'll probably be either Lay twenty five, maybe November ish,

477
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: early December or early twenty six, but keep an eye

478
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: on this one because it's just the type of makeup

479
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: that it'll be huh, what's going on here? And it

480
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: should be an interesting barometer to find out how weak

481
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: or strong are the two party brands going into the

482
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: Mike chokes. All right, So there you got my notebook

483
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: up eight there, So let me put a pin in that.

484
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: Let's get to the interview about Prime Minister. There's a

485
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: great new documentary coming out about the second ever world

486
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: leader to give birth while in office. Just Sinda r Dern,

487
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, somebody I interviewed

488
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: on Meet the Press actually a few years back while

489
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: she was Prime minister. She's the subject of a new

490
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: documentary called Prime Minister. It's going to hit AMC theaters

491
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: on June thirteenth. Hopefully when you're hearing this you will

492
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: have ways to go find it, go see it. And

493
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: the two co directors are my guests today, Lindsay Utes

494
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: and Michelle Walsh. Lindsay and Michelle, welcome to the Toodcast

495
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: and congratulations. This is a big deal, feature length documentary.

496
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: That's no small task.

497
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thanks for having us. I've been watching watching

498
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: you for years, so I'm really honest to be here.

499
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for saying that. Well, look, your co directors,

500
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: you're on two different continent, two different hemispheres right now. Michelle,

501
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: give me the origin story of how you two got

502
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: together and how this came to be.

503
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 3: It's such a great story. Thanks for having us. Well,

504
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: many years ago, we were very lucky to work with

505
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: Jasinda on her labor campaign before she was Prime minister,

506
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 3: and even back then you could say that there was

507
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: just something incredibly magnetic and different about the way she

508
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 3: approach things. Obviously her leading with empathy, all of those

509
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: things were very evident early and we just felt like,

510
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: you know, there might be a story there. But of

511
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 3: course she was head down running a country with a baby,

512
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 3: and so we didn't talk for about doing a documentary

513
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: so much, but we did try to roll the cameras

514
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 3: where we could in and around her and then.

515
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: When she how often did you have access to her

516
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: like it was.

517
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 3: It was intermitted. My husband Leon Kirkback was on the

518
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: campaign trail with her at times. We were able to

519
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: see her in different different moments that that felt important

520
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 3: to capture. So there was quite a bit over the

521
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 3: seven years for sure. But really the gift was her husband,

522
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 3: who was a filmmaker, Clark Gafford, was capturing this for

523
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 3: you know, his own personal record.

524
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: So he was doing okay, I had a feeling this

525
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: felt like you had a lot of cooperation from her.

526
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: You know, her diary, you know, for instance, and all

527
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: of these things. I mean, she clearly understood, hey, this

528
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: is a moment in history. I should chronicle this regardless

529
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: of whether I succeed or fail, because no matter what

530
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: people are going to want to know what happened in

531
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: real time, so keeping a diary, thank goodness for that.

532
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: I fear too many politicians won't do this anymore, for

533
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: fear of stuff leaking out or what you know, the

534
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: real time problems when historians need this stuff. But it

535
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: feels as if she was pretty much whether she worked

536
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: with you guys or somebody else, she had planned to

537
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: have a lot of material about her time.

538
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 3: Interestingly, yes, but for the reasons that she's a lover

539
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: of history, not to create a documentary. In fact, the

540
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: audio diaries that you hear in the film weren't supposed

541
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: to be released until after she died. So she gave

542
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 3: those as really candid forty hours of handed diary interviews

543
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: that as part of the Alexander Turnbull Library project. They

544
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: interview a lot of historical figures, political and otherwise. And

545
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: so she was doing those interviews every two weeks, thinking

546
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 3: they would never be heard, and she gave us access

547
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 3: to those and how Lindsay got involved. We're very lucky

548
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: that when Jacinda agreed that her story might have interest,

549
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 3: we went to the US seeking a financier and a

550
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 3: bigger team, and we connected with Madison Wells, who then

551
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: introduced us to Lindsay, and Lindsay got to be a

552
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: co director with me, which was really exciting from my

553
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 3: perspective too.

554
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: So Lindsay, tell me when you got interested in the

555
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: ar Durned story and when your role began.

556
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: Sure. So, I think, like a lot of people, I

557
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 2: had admired her from AFAR for many years. I think

558
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: I first took notice of her after she passed the

559
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: ban on assault weapons after the terrorist attack in christ Church.

560
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm a mother. I have two young kids,

561
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 2: so I live daily with the fear of sending them

562
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: to school. It's very real, it's very visceral, especially for

563
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 2: Americans because of our gun problems here. So I obviously

564
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: took notice of her and was blown away by her

565
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 2: leadership on that front. And then during the pandemic, you know,

566
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: I was really desperate for science based leadership, and I

567
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: remember the cable news networks would run her daily briefings

568
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: and so I ended up tuning in quite a bit

569
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: to listen to what she had to say, and I

570
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: admired the way she was running her country during the pandemic.

571
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 2: So fast forward to many years later, I get a

572
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 2: phone call about this project and found out that there,

573
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: you know, existed material with her that was shot during

574
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: her time in office, and you can imagine my head exploded.

575
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: I mean, that kind of access to a world leader,

576
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. So I only had to see about two

577
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 2: three minutes of Clark's raw footage to know that I

578
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: wanted to come on board and to do this. So

579
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: I came on board, and you know, and it was

580
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 2: a process because we I had to get to know,

581
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: you know, the New Zealand team, and we all had

582
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: to decide if we liked each other enough to do this,

583
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: and thankfully we did, We really did, and we all

584
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: shared kind of the same vision for what this could be,

585
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: which was a much bigger global story, not just a

586
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: localized political story in New Zealand, but a film that

587
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 2: could resonate with audiences worldwide. So that's what we started doing.

588
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: And we were lucky that Jacinda at the time after

589
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 2: her resignation, she moved to the States and had a

590
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 2: fellowship at Harvard, So Michelle and I were really like

591
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: to be able to go spend time with her in

592
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: Boston and talk to her at length about her experience

593
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: and interview her and as Michelle mentioned, the audio diaries,

594
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, we used the audio diaries as a kind

595
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: of portal into the past, and we asked her not

596
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: to listen to any of them until we got there

597
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: with the camera because we wanted her reaction to the

598
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 2: diary time reaction, Yeah, real time reaction, so you can

599
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: really see the emotion on her face when she's listened

600
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: to something that happened, you know, three four years ago.

601
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: So we were really lucky to have that kind of

602
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 2: access to her here in the States to continue shooting

603
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 2: after her resignation. And this film, you know, just has

604
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: an incredible team in New Zealand in the States, incredibly dedicated,

605
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: talented filmmakers that all came together to bring this film

606
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: to life.

607
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting with the and I'd love to

608
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: know how many times how often was she surprised by

609
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: what she said. I say this because I recently interviewed

610
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: McKay coppins, who did this book on Mitt Romney, and

611
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 1: he got similar access. Now, it wasn't the audio diaries,

612
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: it was it was essentially kept a journal starting in

613
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: his twenty twelve campaign, and Romney didn't realize some of

614
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: the things he wrote down and he gets just handed

615
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: it all to the author, Mackay Coppins, and it was

616
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: some of the most richest part of the book where

617
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: the you know, you said you wrote this down and

618
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: he's like, I did. I can't believe I was that

619
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: honest about it or something like that, Like it was

620
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: very unvarnished and it was it really just added to things.

621
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: So I'm curious how often was she surprised by what

622
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: she confessed essentially in those audio diaries.

623
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 3: It feels like it was less about her being surprised

624
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: in the confessions as realizing she had no idea what

625
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 3: she was in the middle of at the time. You

626
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: know that reflection. You hear it in the film in

627
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: the beginning of COVID and she just has to stop that.

628
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 3: She stops the tape and she's like, oh my gosh,

629
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 3: I just feel so sorry for myself. I didn't know

630
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 3: what was coming. And I think those moments of like

631
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 3: real time reflection are so powerful spec history, you know,

632
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I think that's a real highlight of

633
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 3: the film, And certainly for Lindsay and I there was

634
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 3: so much rich material in that space it was difficult

635
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 3: to choose what we kept.

636
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: Well, I want to talk about that, Michelle, which is, look,

637
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: she had two gigantic stories that happened on her watch,

638
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: right that that would be could have easily you could

639
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: have just done a COVID doc. You could have just

640
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 1: done a christ Church attack doc. Right. See if these

641
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: you could have just done her giving having a child

642
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: in office doc. Right. So here you had this rich

643
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: So there was pretty clear you had these three ten

644
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: polls of a story. Well, my goodness, that almost at

645
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: that point I'm wondering, You're like, what did you leave out?

646
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm certain you left out a lot because

647
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: these were such a dominant stories that you almost had

648
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: no choice but to frame it around those three pillars.

649
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: Is you know if I were in your shoes? But

650
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: when did you know that was going to be the

651
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: three pillars to this?

652
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 3: Yeah?

653
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: So I think it was important to both of us

654
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 2: to make this a really kind of immersive and rich

655
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: experience from beginning to end. So you feel like you're

656
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: going on the ride with.

657
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: Her, right. No, I felt like I got two hours

658
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 1: of her term. No, no, no, there's one hundred percent

659
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: and sort of but there's a part of me that thinks, boy,

660
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: I only got the I only got the most frantic

661
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: moments because you guys had to pick and choose what

662
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: was going to be of I think global interest, right,

663
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: and all three stories are of global interest and New

664
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: Zealand interest exactly.

665
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was really important to us. You know,

666
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 2: we had cuts of the film where there was just

667
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: so much COVID in it, and it's hard to put

668
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 2: audiences through that, right, nobody really.

669
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: Nobody wants it. Nobody wants to I know, it's a

670
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: societal problem, right, but yeah, the only good news is

671
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: the same thing happened after nineteen seventeen. We're going to

672
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: not talk about this, right, Like, yeah, we were horrible

673
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: to each other. Let's not speak about it ever again, right.

674
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. So in the final cut, you know, we were

675
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 2: able to distill it down to kind of, you know,

676
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 2: the essence of that story. I mean, we didn't want

677
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: to put the audience through like all the variants and

678
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: all the lockdowns and all that, but it was you

679
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: know that obviously had global significance. The motherhood thread of

680
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: the film was extremely important to us. Michelle and I

681
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: are both working moms, and you know, we saw this

682
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: as very much a personal story and a story about

683
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: a family. I mean, you see in the film how

684
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: supportive Clark her partner is in helping to raise their

685
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: young child, and he's always there to bring me for breastfeeding,

686
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: take her away. I mean, this is what it looks

687
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 2: like behind the scenes to have a supportive spouse. And

688
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 2: we wanted to normalize that. We wanted to put that

689
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: out in the world and say this is you know,

690
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 2: this is women can't do it all. They deserve support,

691
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 2: and this is what it looks like.

692
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 1: So this goes to what my wife says this all

693
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: the time when she talks about you know, and I

694
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: don't want to throw shade at ChIL Sandberg, but ChIL

695
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: Sandberg went through this, Hey, you can have it all,

696
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: and it's just like, no, it's the same thing as men.

697
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: A successful man needs to have a successful partner to

698
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: help frankly manage family household. Successful woman needs spouse to

699
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: help manage it. It is. It is always going to

700
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 1: be a team effort and if you don't have that spouse,

701
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 1: you're not going to succeed.

702
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think too, Chuckie Wright. The first

703
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 3: cut was seventeen hours, and then it went to five

704
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 3: and then to six, and then to three and then

705
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 3: to four, and that process was, you can imagine, really

706
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: really challenging, and we had to keep sitting back watching

707
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 3: the whole block and going, you know, the COVID stuff

708
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 3: is too heavy. I'm exult And so yes, the vaccine

709
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 3: rollout was interesting, but it doesn't have a place in

710
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: this film because we actually need to move on to

711
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: where our emotional where the emotional journey's going as well,

712
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 3: And Lindsay and I talked a lot about that, where

713
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: we where do we feel something? Because you're right, we

714
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 3: could have made an entire film on any one of those.

715
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: What what I especially like? Look, anytime you can feel

716
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: and when you can feel like you can be in

717
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: the story in real time versus having it be retrospective.

718
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: And obviously you guys were able to combine the two ideas.

719
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: But this felt like a documentary that will be just

720
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: as useful forty years from now when people are trying

721
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: to figure out, Hey, what was that like for just

722
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: for just into our durn let's go back, you know,

723
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: and here you have essentially her turn, you know, essentially

724
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: her tenure in a two hour film.

725
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: That's thank you for saying that I mean, that's the

726
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 2: greatest compliment you can hear as a filmmaker, really, is

727
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: that you're that timeless quality. And it is something we

728
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: talked about and thought about a lot. You know, is

729
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 2: this is going to be a record of her time

730
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: in office. So I think we felt that responsibility to

731
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: get the story right, to get the tone right, because yeah,

732
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: you do want your films to to kind of live

733
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: on beyond, you know, the moment in time that they capture.

734
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 3: Felt like a big responsibility to get it right. Knowing

735
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 3: that this would be an historical document in many ways.

736
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: Is there going to be a companion book that she

737
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: writes based on her diaries? Is there going to be

738
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: more that she decides to do with this? And you know,

739
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: is House just.

740
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 3: He's actually just released a book this week called A

741
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 3: Different Kind of Power, and she does go into some

742
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 3: more of the diary.

743
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm just can I ask, did you guess? I'm sorry, well,

744
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: how coordinated was that her book and this document everything

745
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: at the same time?

746
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: Sensitive topic?

747
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: Todd?

748
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, fair enough, then you've answered the question, and

749
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to continue down the road.

750
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: I think the projects amplify each other.

751
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: I agree. I think it does too. She did an

752
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: interview with CBS that I was going to ask you about.

753
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think because people, you know, if they read

754
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:25,959
Speaker 2: the book, they're going to want to see the movie,

755
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: and if they go to the movie, they're going to

756
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 2: want to see have a piece of her, and buying

757
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: a book is so I think it's I think it's

758
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: great that we were able to kind of coordinate it

759
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: like this, And we were really lucky that she was

760
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: writing the book during our filming in Boston, because she

761
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 2: was in this very contemplative place, really still processing everything

762
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: that she went through. So that really lent itself to

763
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 2: I think, you know, really emotional interviews that are kind

764
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 2: of woven throughout.

765
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 1: What's the most hardest thing you left out.

766
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 3: Michelle, Oh my gosh, probably some of the diary I loved.

767
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 3: I loved hearing. I would have loved to have sit

768
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 3: and watched her reflect more.

769
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: Also, I think just if you're saying that, because that

770
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: would have been if you'd ask me, that's what I

771
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: want to do more of. I obsessed over diaries politicians.

772
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: The only like the best book I've ever read that

773
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter wrote were his own White House Diaries. It's

774
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: such cheap because because it feels like it's in real time, right,

775
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: it feels like that it's a less varnished and unvarnished,

776
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: less varnished version of event.

777
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 3: I also love, you know, there was a lot to

778
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: fit in, and there's a pace that you need to

779
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 3: to hit to get through it and keep the audience

780
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 3: really engaged. I would have liked to have sat and

781
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 3: just observed her more, you know, that's my I really.

782
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: Well, you sound like that, then I'm gonna you're you're

783
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: like me. I call myself a political anthropole, just curious

784
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: about a photo group and a politician, and I do

785
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: sort of want to be dispassionate sometimes, you know, you know,

786
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: don't don't interact with the gorillas, you know, type of thing.

787
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: But we show something about.

788
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: What we should say. But you guys have seen our cut.

789
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go.

790
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I think I would have just

791
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 3: liked to sit a bit longer. But that's my own taste,

792
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 3: and I recognize that not everyone is as deeply curious

793
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 3: as us, Chuck like, and as documentarians. You know, there

794
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 3: is I guess an entertainment factor as well, where you've

795
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 3: got to keep people engaged. Yeah, the massive audience engaged.

796
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: That is one of the things and I'd love and

797
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: this gets it just sort of let me let me

798
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: give a reaction from afar about how New Zealand handled

799
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 1: it versus the United States. And I'm curious both Lindsay

800
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: and Mitchelle, if you guys, if this was a difficult

801
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: sort of way to put this in, which is particularly

802
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: the COVID stuff. You know, I always felt like island

803
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: nations in general managed this better than larger landlocked countries.

804
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: And I think we saw it even when within the States. Okay,

805
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: our island, we have a our island state, if you will,

806
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: seem to at least have less acrimony. Now, you highlighted

807
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: some of the acrimony in New Zealand, But Lindsey, as

808
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: you sort of observed what was happening in New Zealand

809
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: in real time versus how we were reacting in the

810
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: United States to COVID and the sort of divisiveness that

811
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: we experienced. They certainly, you guys highlighted divisiveness, but was

812
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: it the same or was it more muted? The Lindsay

813
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: start with you, just your observation New Zealand's sort of

814
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: collective ability to deal with COVID versus America's collective ability

815
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: to deal with COVID.

816
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: Well, I think it comes down to leadership. I mean

817
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 2: this is those are the moments in time when you

818
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: need a strong leader. And I think that there was

819
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 2: just a lot of confusion in the United States about

820
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 2: what was happening, and there was a lot of contradiction

821
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 2: between the administration and the scientists, and so that was

822
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: very confusing and I think terrifying for Americans. You know,

823
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: I've certainly not heard of anybody who's who felt, you know,

824
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 2: confident in the leadership of our country in that moment

825
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: in time. And so I you know, I thought that

826
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: her putting people and health and science above everything else

827
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: was you know, That's the kind of leadership approach that

828
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: I would love to see more of. I think a

829
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 2: lot of people are kind of desperate for that. How

830
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: do we save people's lives? And and we we saw her,

831
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 2: We saw her do that.

832
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, Michelle, from your perspective, do

833
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: you feel like this was a divisive COVID divided New

834
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: Zealand the way it clearly divided America or do you

835
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: or do you think it was could do you feel

836
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: like you're comfortable comparing the two reactions.

837
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 3: No, absolutely, but I think in different times it felt different.

838
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 3: I mean, we we had this incredible period of nine

839
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 3: months where we eradicated COVID and we were dancing out

840
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 3: in the streets. There was parties going on, we had

841
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 3: guys the only country that was having concerts. But as

842
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 3: the when COVID came back in again. I've tried to

843
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 3: really reflect on this a lot, because I don't quite

844
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 3: understand why people got so angry here and there was

845
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 3: so much blame on the governments and lockdowns, and I

846
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 3: think I feel this in other cities you go to.

847
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 3: You know, if you go to Melbourne, they're like, we

848
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 3: had the worst lockdowns ever, at which.

849
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: They did everybody. That's what I was starting to like,

850
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: we had.

851
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 3: The worst lockdowns ever. And then London, you know, New

852
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 3: Zealanders go to London, They're like, did you have lockdowns too?

853
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 2: I thought it was only asking you.

854
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 3: Somehow we all got very siloed and very angry, and

855
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 3: it was extremely difficult, and I think what we saw

856
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: is people desperately wanting to point their frustration and hurt

857
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 3: and pain at someone and something, and in our case,

858
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 3: by the time those next lockdowns came, people wanted to

859
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 3: point at it, at the government and just center. You

860
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 3: still hear people saying, you know, just Sender caused an

861
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 3: economic crash in our economy and inflation. And it's funny

862
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 3: because I think, well, globally, we all had inflation, we

863
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 3: all had economic trauma. I don't know how you could

864
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: point it at a specific person, but I think that's

865
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 3: a sign of the times and the insular nature and

866
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 3: the silos that we sit in the echo chambers that

867
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 3: just hear one narrative, which is New Zealand was the

868
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 3: worst ever.

869
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 1: You know, well, and that's the thing, lindsay. And I'd

870
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: look at this and I thought it then and I

871
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: still think it now. It's like, oh please, I said.

872
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: It's so you guys were such more of a cooperative

873
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: populis than we like. I mean, I you know, and

874
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: I wonder if this is everybody. But but I'm starting

875
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: to start too, and we maybe we're starting to put

876
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,399
Speaker 1: together a doc that we all need to see, which

877
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 1: is how we all ended up with a similar experience,

878
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: even though we actually did have different ways leaders handle it.

879
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 1: But we all we all we all thought our country's

880
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: response was the worst weird for or another.

881
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 2: I don't think many politicians got away unscathed from from COVID.

882
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a that's a tough hands.

883
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: Public health is tough, right, And you know, what is

884
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: the whole role of government and a democracy. How much

885
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: do you is the individual versus the collective?

886
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? And listen, when I saw the footage of the

887
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 2: Trump flags on the lawn of Parliament outside in Wellington,

888
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: New Zealand, I couldn't believe it. But upon closer examining,

889
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 2: you can believe it because this you know, there was

890
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 2: a lot of disinformation being pumped into the New Zealand public,

891
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: which we touch on briefly in the film. You know,

892
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: a lot of anti vax sentiment and anger, but it

893
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 2: was based on you know, for instance, people were upset

894
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 2: about the mandates, but there were no mandates to vaccinate children,

895
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 2: yet those signs were everywhere, and so there was a

896
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 2: disconnect between reality and you know, and what was being

897
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: kind of fed to the New Zealand public. And I think,

898
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 2: you know, we're seeing that everywhere. We're seeing that kind

899
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 2: of assault on you know, democracies and this kind of

900
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: lack of trust in institutions and expertise. And that's not

901
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: just a New Zealand problem. I mean that's everywhere.

902
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: Michelle would how would you describe the anti vax community

903
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:03,879
Speaker 1: pre COVID New Zealand? How big? How small? How Yeah?

904
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: How much did you ever hear about that?

905
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:10,240
Speaker 3: I would have said very significant, never heard really Obviously,

906
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 3: there's always communities that have your opinion on vaccinations. But

907
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 3: it was funny because there's so many occupations that require

908
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 3: vaccinations there. People vaccinate their kids without any concern.

909
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: Being an island nation. Being an island nation, there's usually

910
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: a little bit more emphasis on making sure you're up

911
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 1: to date with all your you know, if you're getting

912
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: that leaving the country, don't bring back yellow fever, don't

913
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:34,919
Speaker 1: bring back these things.

914
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 3: Well, I mean there are so many vaccinations I know,

915
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 3: with you know, like an HPV vaccination, every how much

916
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 3: is their kids off to get that done? So it

917
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 3: was really unusual to have this huge revolt against vaccinations

918
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 3: and this idea of vaccine mandates. I was living in

919
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 3: the US during the beginning of COVID and going backwards

920
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 3: influence as well, and we had a passport we had

921
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 3: to show that we were vaccinated, and yet here in

922
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 3: New zeal And people were saying, how could they do this.

923
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 3: We're the only place in the world that has this.

924
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: And you could stand to somebody and say, no, that's

925
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 3: not true. I was just in America and they're like,

926
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 3: you're lying. There's just this.

927
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: Australia was doing the same thing, right exactly, get America

928
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: literally right across the water there, right.

929
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 3: But like we say, people don't want to hear it.

930
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 3: There's just this. It's so difficult to find truth now.

931
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 3: There's like Lendsing says, there's so much distress everywhere. And

932
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 3: I even remember just understanding and talking to people to

933
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 3: their face we are not vaccinating mandating children's vaccinations and

934
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 3: they would say, you are lying. What do you say

935
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 3: to that?

936
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: You know, people just want to believe, you know, is lindsay,

937
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: are we to be so arrogant as to assume we've

938
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: exported this to New Zealand? Or is this just the

939
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: English speaking world is going to do this to itself,

940
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: whether it's the UK, New Zealand, Australia or the United States.

941
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: Well, I think the QAnon movement was particularly you know,

942
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 2: in full gear at that moment in time. So I

943
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 2: do think there was a lot of that that we

944
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 2: exported for sure. And yeah, it's it's it is demoralizing,

945
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: it's it's sad to think that you know that that happened.

946
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: I also, I would love to talk about the misogyny

947
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 2: as well, that was a part of this backlash.

948
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: I mean you have to wonder men not wanting to

949
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: take orders from a woman.

950
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we have, Yeah, we have a there's

951
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 2: a voice in the film who you know, accuses, you know,

952
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: accuse somebody screaming from the lawn of Parliament that she

953
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: is what is?

954
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 3: What did they say? What does he say?

955
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: A woman in a skirt of power?

956
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 3: Because we're not We're not going to take you know,

957
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 3: orders from a woman in a skirt on a power trip.

958
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 2: Right, And and you know, they were hanging nooses from

959
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 2: the trees down below her office, and there were signs

960
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 2: portraying her as Hitler. So the animosity and the violence

961
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 2: directed towards her, I can't help but think that I

962
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 2: had a lot to do with her being a woman

963
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 2: as well.

964
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 3: So's I came from women as well, which is interesting.

965
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: Let's move from one hot topic to another, which is

966
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 1: a decision on semi automatics. And let me ask you this, Michelle,

967
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: was the backlash worse for COVID or for that?

968
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 3: Oh no, everybody agreed, like that's just sensible.

969
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: That's amazing, like to the American political mind right that

970
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: you know, because of this country. No matter what I

971
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 1: actually think, the banning semi automatics would have been worse

972
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 1: of a response and more divisive at our country than COVID.

973
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: Do you concurrently, yes?

974
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 2: And I've gotten to know these New Zealanders really well

975
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 2: and they are very sensible people. But refreshing to see

976
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 2: that done and done so quickly.

977
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 3: So that was just done in Australia too.

978
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 1: Right, No, I know, and the buybacks. No, it's this

979
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: is why I come to the island nation mindset.

980
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 4: Right.

981
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 1: I've always believed that when people live on an island.

982
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: I grew up and I grew up in Florida. We

983
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: had the keys, and you even saw it with people

984
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: that live on the keys. Everybody understands that they got

985
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: to look out for somebody. You're not alone when you

986
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: live on an island, even though that's the draw, right,

987
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: you're trying to be a little more isolated, but you

988
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: realize we have to work with each other if we're

989
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 1: going to keep this island, you know, And that's why

990
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: I guess it is surprising to me that COVID was

991
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: as controversial as it was, considering that the semi automatic

992
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: decision was not.

993
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess the semi automatic debate didn't

994
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 3: impact every single person's individual life. We don't have people,

995
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 3: we don't have half the populations with guns in their cupboards,

996
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 3: so you know, I think it was and as personal interesting.

997
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 3: You know, we lived in America with my kids and

998
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 3: when we came back because of COVID, in about forty

999
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 3: eight hours, one of my kids said, Oh, it's so

1000
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 3: cool sitting outside and knowing you're not going to get shot.

1001
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 3: And it was so shocking to me with that. Yeah,

1002
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 3: while we were living in New York that that was

1003
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 3: just an undercurrent that was sitting there. So I think

1004
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 3: if you ask most Americans like, does this make sense

1005
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 3: if you get if you take away the whole my rights,

1006
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: and it just makes sense like those those those.

1007
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: We put it in our constitution and you didn't, right, Like,

1008
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: it's ultimately, why did Australia pull it off? It wasn't

1009
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: in their constitution, right, And how did you guys pull

1010
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: it off? Not in your constitution right?

1011
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, the right to bear arms is different from sembia

1012
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 3: automatic weapons. And you know, we could talk about this

1013
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 3: for hours.

1014
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: Oh I know, trust me, but it is. I mean,

1015
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: Lindsay would It's just fascinating. I'm sure as somebody you know,

1016
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: being giving helping with the American perspective here, that that was.

1017
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: You know, I just found that it was the you

1018
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: would have if you asked an American of those three

1019
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: things that happened, you know, being you know, giving birth

1020
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: and office all this stuff, they would have assumed that

1021
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: the semi automatic decision was the most controversial thing she

1022
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: did in office.

1023
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, certainly from from an American perspective. Definitely.

1024
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 1: Michelle, what'd you make of her saying she's never going

1025
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: to go into politics again? That was the headline of

1026
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 1: this interview that she just gave to a friend of

1027
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: mine over at CBS, Robert Costa. And you know, I

1028
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: she seems awfully young to say to rule out political

1029
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 1: life again. What did you make of that?

1030
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 3: You know, I think she there is so much she

1031
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 3: can achieve outside of politics. Specifically, she is incredibly driven

1032
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 3: to make a difference to people in play, and she's

1033
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 3: doing that in all sorts of different ways, whether it's

1034
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 3: with Prince William and Earthshot or in fellowships. I don't

1035
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 3: Once you've been prime minister, what do you How do

1036
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 3: you get back into politics in New Zealand? I think

1037
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 3: I think that would be an interesting I mean.

1038
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: Well, well, I assume she could become prime minister again

1039
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: if her party begged her to come back.

1040
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 3: Generally speaking, we don't have Lateis come back in, but

1041
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 3: there's an exception obviously.

1042
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do it all that. We more often than

1043
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: you think. The UK, my goodness, they do it quite

1044
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: a bit, right Australia they seem to do it.

1045
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 2: Uh So it's it's it's hard to hear her say

1046
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 2: that because she's so good at it. But I also understand,

1047
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 2: you know where she's coming from.

1048
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: But I remember when she she she lived. When you

1049
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: look at just looking your documentary, right, there's a one

1050
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: hand you're like, yeah, you know, how are you ever

1051
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: going to have another? You know you just you know,

1052
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: you had, you had a crisis, you had everything that

1053
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: comes with being leader of a country. Right, it's always

1054
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: the unexpected that tests you, not what you campaign on,

1055
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: and so I would get it if she said COVID

1056
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: just took it all out of her. I mean, I'll

1057
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 1: be honest, COVID took a lot out of me as

1058
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: a journalist. And you know, there's a reason I'm sitting

1059
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: here today and not doing the dog and pony show

1060
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: I did for as long as I did. COVID was

1061
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 1: a big reason.

1062
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And her resignation is complicated. I think it

1063
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 2: was a cumulative effect of all of what she went through.

1064
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 2: But you know, you feel her and you understand why

1065
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 2: she stepped aside. I think ultimately she felt it was

1066
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 2: the best move for the country and for herself, and

1067
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: I think that's an incredibly powerful thing, a powerful decision

1068
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 2: that she made. But I can't lie that when I

1069
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 2: heard the news that she was resigning, I felt, you know,

1070
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 2: I felt kind of heartbroken because we had never seen

1071
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 2: anybody like her on the world stage and and people

1072
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 2: are you know, just so desperate for that kind of sensible,

1073
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 2: compassionate leadership.

1074
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: Michelle. I know that. You know, back in the day,

1075
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: Bill Clint used to be more popular outside of America

1076
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: than in America. How would you say, are during it

1077
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 1: is she you think she's more popular outside of New

1078
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 1: Zealand or within the.

1079
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 3: Country, well just by scale. Yes, outside of the country

1080
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 3: for sure, there's still a big unfortunate part about population

1081
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 3: that feels very aggrieved and angry over COVID of agra

1082
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 3: and resentment towards her over COVID. So I would say, yeah,

1083
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 3: she's her popularity outside is more reflective of the person

1084
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 3: that I know. There's a lot of people that love

1085
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 3: her here too. I mean, I was personally devastated when

1086
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 3: she stepped down because she was such an important influence

1087
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 3: in my own career in showing me an example of

1088
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 3: how you can lead unapologetically as a woman. And I

1089
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 3: spent a lot of time my time running businesses or

1090
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 3: as a director trying to emulate masculine traits, and she

1091
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 3: was the first person that I saw that just turned

1092
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 3: up exactly as she was unapologetically and lent into those

1093
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 3: female traits. And so I was personally really devastated that.

1094
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 3: I just wish I'd got to see her lead without

1095
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 3: COVID and without some of those things and see what

1096
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 3: we could have achieved here, because the trajectory was extraordinary

1097
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 3: what she was doing.

1098
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 1: Well, Lindsey, let's let's put let's let's assume there's a

1099
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: thirty two year old state legislature legislator watching this documentary

1100
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 1: who's got aspirations to be governor or president something like that,

1101
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: one of the two executive positions. What do you hope

1102
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: this young politician takes away from this documentary and from

1103
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 1: Mardurna's experience.

1104
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to build on what Michelle just said,

1105
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 2: the fact that she showed up as herself. There was

1106
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 2: no time I'm for focused groups or any kind of

1107
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 2: you know, tweaking of who she was because of how

1108
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 2: she was thrust into this position. And I think that

1109
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 2: that alone is so powerful that she showed up as herself.

1110
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 2: She was human, she was a crier, she's a nerd,

1111
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,959
Speaker 2: she's all those things right. And we tend to think,

1112
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 2: especially of the particular particular female qualities that their liabilities

1113
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 2: in leadership. But they're assets. I think they're assets. I

1114
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 2: think you can be compassionate and strong, you can be

1115
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 2: empathetic and have resolved. So I think I would say

1116
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 2: to that person, show up as yourself, wear your heart

1117
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 2: on your sleeve. You can still be a great leader.

1118
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 2: And we hope that the film is really showcasing that

1119
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: in a big way. You know, we want more humanity

1120
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:00,959
Speaker 2: from our politicians.

1121
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 1: I hesitate to make this observation as a man, Michelle,

1122
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 1: so please put me in my place. But I look

1123
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 1: at her comfort level essentially not shying away from being

1124
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: feminine and being strong everything that Lindsay just said. And

1125
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, well, she's millennial. And I look at Kamala

1126
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: Harris and Hillary Clinton, who clearly I think we're over consulted,

1127
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: had too many people whispering in their ear. No, no, no, no,

1128
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 1: the first female commander in chief's got to be this

1129
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 1: or got to be that, or got to be this.

1130
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: And you know, I can always tell when there's a

1131
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 1: lot of people in the ear of a politician. But

1132
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris is older than I am, Hillary Clinton is

1133
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 1: older than I am. Our Deern is younger than I am.

1134
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: And I do feel like millennial women are like, no, no, no, no,

1135
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 1: it's not just equal access. We're there, right, I think

1136
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: gen X I'd like to think we were raised. Yes,

1137
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,360
Speaker 1: we're all equal, but there's been a butt right, you know,

1138
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 1: there's no doubt there's been a butt with with gen X.

1139
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: How much do you think the fact that she was

1140
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: a millennial younger. That made her essentially say, I am

1141
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: who I am. I'm not going to try to be

1142
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: do a man's version of what a female leader should

1143
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 1: look like.

1144
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 3: You know, I haven't actually thought of that, so thank

1145
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 3: you for bringing that up. I imagine there is a

1146
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 3: part of it, right because women have really had equal

1147
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 3: rights for such a short time. We've had one generation

1148
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 3: of women working and trying to do everything, and I

1149
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 3: think she's at the younger end of that, so perhaps

1150
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 3: there's more comfort with just turning up as you are.

1151
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 3: I hope that's the case. I still see women in

1152
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 3: her generation thinking they need to, you know, use force,

1153
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 3: to be to be.

1154
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: Don't show emotion, right, be loud, right, yeah, you know.

1155
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 3: I mean we still reward force in leadership, you know,

1156
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 3: over empathy.

1157
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 2: For sure.

1158
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 3: It's still seen as a weakness. I mean we've been

1159
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 3: asked the question and you know, like can you be

1160
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 3: empathetic and still get stuff done? And it's like WHOA.

1161
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 3: The fact that that's even a question is sort of

1162
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 3: a sign.

1163
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 1: Of I thought it the only way to get anything

1164
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 1: done was to be empathetic. That's how you get people

1165
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 1: to do stuff that that they don't want to do sometimes.

1166
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 3: You know, that's that's not always reflected in our leadership

1167
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 3: around us. So his hoping the next generation generation of

1168
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 3: women lean into that. And I really, Lindsay and I

1169
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 3: talk about this all the time. What a gift it

1170
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 3: is to work on a project that might inspire the

1171
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 3: next generation of women who don't look like the typical

1172
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 3: a you know, a type leadership to.

1173
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 2: Have it go.

1174
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: That's what That's what I was took away from there.

1175
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: I would hope many young women would take away from

1176
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: this that this is a this is a great role

1177
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: model type of type of documentary. But Lindsay, I'd give

1178
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 1: you two cents Towagh and and how I just worded that,

1179
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: I mean, how much do you think are durned just

1180
01:07:56,000 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: generational comfort? She's a millennial, and you know versus what

1181
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 1: we witnessed with Clinton and Harris and how how frankly

1182
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 1: they had always felt that they were constantly looking over

1183
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: their shoulder to see what other people thought of female leadership.

1184
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's I think it's a good observation.

1185
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 2: I think there's certainly something to that because we do

1186
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:23,879
Speaker 2: see such a different approach with those different generations. So certainly.

1187
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 2: I think that played into it for sure.

1188
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 1: All Right, what's next? You guys created this, this two

1189
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 1: country production team co directors. I got to think that

1190
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: you want to work together again? What's what? What have

1191
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:41,560
Speaker 1: you talked about that and what would that look like

1192
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: if you.

1193
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 2: Have well Michelle's Michelle runs an incredible company in New

1194
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: Zealand and they have a lot of projects. I'm more

1195
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 2: independent here in the States, but I would love to

1196
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 2: work with her again. And I mean, I say this

1197
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 2: and it sounds kind of corny, but I really came

1198
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 2: away with a kiw family after this whole experience, a

1199
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 2: lot of people that I've come to really love. And

1200
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 2: you know, when you make a film with people your

1201
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 2: your family for life, kind of stuck with each.

1202
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 1: Other project like that, you never forget. Yeah.

1203
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's right now. We're just taking a deep

1204
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:23,960
Speaker 2: breath and enjoying, you know, seeing audiences connect with the film.

1205
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 1: You know, Michelle, I know that you guys are tired

1206
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:30,080
Speaker 1: of US Americans wanting to become expats in New Zealand.

1207
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: Uh right, you got to pass a law and make

1208
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 1: it harder for us to buy land.

1209
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 2: But no trying to buy land.

1210
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 1: She won't yet you can anymore?

1211
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,360
Speaker 3: Right, Like we know she has a farm though, so

1212
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 3: she might be I'm looking at I'm looking out on

1213
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 3: the most beautiful role at the moment, the spaceful all

1214
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 3: of you.

1215
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 1: What's next for you, Michelle? What do you got? What

1216
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 1: do you got in the works that you would share?

1217
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really funny.

1218
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 3: I don't I don't direct too much anymore unless there's

1219
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 3: stories that I really think can impact. And I'm really

1220
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 3: drawn to the idea that humans are inherently good and

1221
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 3: we have been, you know, fed just a constant narrative

1222
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 3: that your neighbor will turn on you, that our venier

1223
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:14,599
Speaker 3: is very thin, that the person in the car next

1224
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 3: to you you shouldn't trust, and I just don't buy that.

1225
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 3: Rutger Brigman does a whole lot of interesting work, talks

1226
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 3: about this a lot in his book Human Kind, And

1227
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 3: I'm really interested in how I can tell stories that

1228
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 3: bring us together. What that looks like is TBC. But

1229
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 3: I loved working with Lindsay co. Directing is a gift

1230
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 3: because different perspectives coming in and fighting for you know,

1231
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 3: what's really important, and finding those moments where we just

1232
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:43,720
Speaker 3: both you know, would sit on the couch hangling thing,

1233
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 3: you know or amazing is an incredible experience. So hopefully

1234
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 3: we do something together again. But and I hope I

1235
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 3: have the honor and the and the privilege of telling

1236
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,719
Speaker 3: more stories that help help humanity.

1237
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 1: I mean we are. It is one of those things

1238
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 1: where where the media lenses distorted humankind. We are all

1239
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: much better to each other. I always say this. People

1240
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 1: would never say ninety percent of what they say online

1241
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: if they if they were face to face with somebody.

1242
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and movies, movies are empathy machines. So we

1243
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 2: hope that this film, you know, not only creates empathy

1244
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 2: for what Jacinda went through, but just more kindness and

1245
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 2: patience with each other.

1246
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 1: All right, lindsay, tell tell me, tell all my listeners

1247
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 1: and YouTube watchers where AMC theaters? Okay, where else? I mean,

1248
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 1: we want you to make money. Those AMC theaters got

1249
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: to pay for this production. Get that. Where else can

1250
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,720
Speaker 1: they find it? Streaming services? Where's it going to live?

1251
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 2: So the film is going to be released Friday, June

1252
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 2: thirteenth and AMC theaters nationwide in most markets, not every market,

1253
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 2: but so my I would.

1254
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: Cringer, Oh wait, AMC great means you don't have to

1255
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:04,479
Speaker 1: go to that weird theater down those road in your

1256
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:06,320
Speaker 1: community looking for that you know.

1257
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 2: Doc It's aye there too, It'll okay here too. But

1258
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,439
Speaker 2: this is a really tough time for documentary films, and

1259
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:18,519
Speaker 2: so more people go out, buy a ticket, go see

1260
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:22,120
Speaker 2: movies in the theater. I think the better off we

1261
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:26,560
Speaker 2: all are. We we love that this is a communal experience.

1262
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:29,640
Speaker 2: I've watched audiences connect with this film on such a

1263
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 2: deep level and there's nothing like the light's going down

1264
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:36,760
Speaker 2: and sharing the experience of watching it with a group

1265
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 2: of people. So please go out and buy a ticket,

1266
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 2: otherwise it will be coming to HBO and then to

1267
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 2: CNN as well.

1268
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:47,720
Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, I will say this, it's unfortunately right. We're

1269
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 1: in the university recess, if you will for the most

1270
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 1: of the but I mean I would. I hope every

1271
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 1: I hope every sort of up and coming female political

1272
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:00,719
Speaker 1: science major that wants to go out there and change

1273
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 1: the world. I hope you end up with a big

1274
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:05,679
Speaker 1: tour of college campuses in the fall with this film,

1275
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:08,840
Speaker 1: because I see screenings on campuses all over I think

1276
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: would be enormously popular.

1277
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 3: Oh that's a yeah, that's a great idea anyway, Lindsay,

1278
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 3: to bring your sons as well. This is a film

1279
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:22,680
Speaker 3: of course, bring ESSENTI for anyone that doesn't look like

1280
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 3: typical leadership.

1281
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 1: Well, look, support A good political leader has to have

1282
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:32,320
Speaker 1: a good political family that's supportive. Yeah, yeah, of course.

1283
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 2: But she is an incredible role model and we would

1284
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 2: love for parents to bring their kids to the movies

1285
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 2: as well.

1286
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:43,600
Speaker 1: Excellent, Lindsay, utes Michelle Walsh. This was a pleasure. Congratulations.

1287
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 1: The documentary is called Prime Prime Minister, and you don't

1288
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 1: have to be knowledgeable at all about New Zealand politics.

1289
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 1: This is a story that should will easily resonate for

1290
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 1: the American political PSYCHEA trustment anyway, Thank you guys.

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01:13:58,200 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 2: Thanks Joe, I appreciate it.

1292
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 3: Have a great day, take care.

1293
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Michelle Walsh and

1294
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:16,439
Speaker 1: Lindsay Oots. I thought it was again. I thought they

1295
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: this is a documentary that is just going to age

1296
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 1: so well, just stylistically. If you want to make a

1297
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:28,639
Speaker 1: documentary and you don't want your documentary to just look

1298
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 1: like talking heads into a camera, take a look at

1299
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 1: what Prime Minister did. All right, let's do a little

1300
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 1: bit of ask Chuck. All right, I'm going to do

1301
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 1: two questions and save some of the others for other shows.

1302
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 1: This comes from a YouTuber at Henry James Q six t,

1303
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 1: and he writes, in nineteen fifty seven, Arkansas Governor Orville

1304
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:54,639
Speaker 1: Famous called out the state's National Guard to prevent black

1305
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,599
Speaker 1: children from attending all white schools, despite two Supreme Court

1306
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 1: decisions ordering an end to segregation. As an Eisenhower couldn't

1307
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 1: call out the state's National Guard, but once a governor

1308
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: had done so, Eisenhower could federalize those troops, which he

1309
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 1: promptly did. I knew he had a lot more about

1310
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 1: troop deployment regulations than Famous. Yes he did. Then Ike

1311
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 1: ordered the federalized National Guard to return to barracks and

1312
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 1: also ordered the hundred and first Airborne to enforce the

1313
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 1: Supreme Court orders desegregating Arkansas schools. Of course, Ike was

1314
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:22,720
Speaker 1: on the side of the Angels in this case, but

1315
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: the white folks in Arkansas never forgave the President for

1316
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:27,840
Speaker 1: ordering the troops into Little Rock. My guess is people

1317
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 1: of California won't be in a forgiving mood either. I

1318
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 1: don't know how Trump can federalize the state's national guard

1319
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:35,720
Speaker 1: that hasn't previously been called to active duty by the

1320
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 1: state's governor. Has the law changed? Well, no, Now I

1321
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 1: think you understand the basis of their lawsuit, and it

1322
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: is not clear we don't. What's interesting here is is

1323
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 1: I have a sneaky suspicion that both the Marines haven't

1324
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: done anything yet, so they've not violated any laws. The

1325
01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 1: president sort of right now it's more of a cosmetic

1326
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 1: call up and the National Guard appears to be a

1327
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 1: bit cosmetic because they haven't had him, they haven't engaged yet,

1328
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:12,320
Speaker 1: and I think that that could be how they have

1329
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:17,440
Speaker 1: they avoid any bad court rulings because they don't actually

1330
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:22,639
Speaker 1: engage in the unconstitutional behavior. They come up to the line,

1331
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 1: but they don't quite get there. So look, I mean,

1332
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 1: I think this is this anyway you you bring up

1333
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 1: a fair point, and this is why it's such an

1334
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: unusual case. Obviously, considering that National Guard troops were used

1335
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 1: for reserve duty in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. The

1336
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:44,800
Speaker 1: federal uh federal government does have a lot does does

1337
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:46,519
Speaker 1: have quite a bit of say so here. But I

1338
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:50,599
Speaker 1: think this is I hope that the in some ways

1339
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:53,840
Speaker 1: just to get some certainty on this issue. I hope

1340
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 1: this California lawsuit makes it all the way Supreme Court,

1341
01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:00,240
Speaker 1: we get we get an answer to your court question.

1342
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:05,599
Speaker 1: All right, next question, This also comes from a YouTuber

1343
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:09,920
Speaker 1: zeroed in. Why did having a super plan workout for

1344
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 1: President Trump and not work for Secretary Clinton and our

1345
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 1: famous twenty seven point planned speeches. It's an interesting question.

1346
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 1: I think part of the you know, there's going to

1347
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 1: be some in the Clinton world that are just going

1348
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 1: to hate what I'm about to say, but it's down

1349
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 1: to it is stylistic. What Donald Trump and what Project

1350
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:37,360
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five was good at is that it was

1351
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,680
Speaker 1: a quick description. You know, it was a it was

1352
01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 1: a straightforward, you know, here's what we're going to do.

1353
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 1: But they focused the focus was the goal, not the

1354
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 1: focus was the output not the input. You know, we're

1355
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:54,000
Speaker 1: going to get this done and the ends are going

1356
01:17:54,040 --> 01:18:00,360
Speaker 1: to justify the means. And I think that to the

1357
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 1: responsible side of Hillary Clinton and her policy team was

1358
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:06,280
Speaker 1: we've got to prove how we're going to do it,

1359
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 1: the rationale, not just promise what the output's going to be.

1360
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 1: We've got to show our work in the input, and

1361
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:15,320
Speaker 1: I think this is this is the you know, do

1362
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 1: you you know what is it? You govern in pros

1363
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 1: and campaign in poetry. Well, it's a form of this,

1364
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:26,080
Speaker 1: and I think the Democrats didn't do that. They campaigned

1365
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:29,200
Speaker 1: in pros too much. I think Hillary Clinton campaigned in pros.

1366
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:34,479
Speaker 1: It's let me give you another way of looking at

1367
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 1: this again. It's going to be a cheap, stylistic way

1368
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:39,800
Speaker 1: to look at it, and feel free to just light

1369
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:43,599
Speaker 1: me up about it. But I think I think you'll

1370
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:47,519
Speaker 1: unfortunately agree if you look. Just let's just look at

1371
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:50,959
Speaker 1: the president's going back to nineteen eighty eight, every presidential

1372
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 1: race going back to nineteen eighty eight, ask yourself, of

1373
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 1: the two contestants for president start in eighty eight, ninety two,

1374
01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:02,799
Speaker 1: ninety six, which candidate sounded more like a college president

1375
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:06,160
Speaker 1: and which candidate sounded more like an American?

1376
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:09,640
Speaker 3: Right?

1377
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 1: Trump and Harris? You know the answer. Look, one of

1378
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's advantages is he didn't sound like a college president.

1379
01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:20,799
Speaker 1: He did speak a bit more, a bit more American,

1380
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:23,679
Speaker 1: as I like to call it. Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump.

1381
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:28,920
Speaker 1: Clinton was the college president. Mitt Romney Barack Obama. Mett

1382
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 1: Romney was the guy that sounded like the college president. Look, Obama,

1383
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:36,240
Speaker 1: McCain is sort of an outlier, right, the two of them.

1384
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 1: First of all, they also both had net positive ratings,

1385
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:44,240
Speaker 1: so that fully emit doesn't fit neatly into my rubric,

1386
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: if you will, But I think I do think McCain

1387
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:50,040
Speaker 1: spoke a little too much Congress at times, and that

1388
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 1: benefited Obama. Two thousand and four, Kerry Bush. Carrie's the

1389
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 1: college president Bush speaking like an American right? Two thousand

1390
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:07,759
Speaker 1: Al goreg George W. Bush. Need I say more? Bill Clinton?

1391
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 1: George H. W. Bush. Bob Thwle's another one doesn't fit

1392
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 1: into the rubric. But like John McCain, you know Bill Clinton. Well,

1393
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:18,280
Speaker 1: I think both of Bob Dole and John McCain spoke

1394
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 1: to you know, America just as well as Barack Obama

1395
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:25,280
Speaker 1: and Bill Clinton did. I think in those both of

1396
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 1: those cases it was the generational divide that advantaged both

1397
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 1: Clinton and Obama there and disadvantaged both McCain and Toll.

1398
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 1: But eighty eight it was Ducacas that was more of

1399
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:38,559
Speaker 1: the college president versus hw Bush, And of course four

1400
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 1: years later it was hw Bush that came across more

1401
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 1: as the College president anyway, you see where I'm going there.

1402
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,680
Speaker 1: And hw Bush, you know, a college president's going to

1403
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 1: have a twenty seven point plan to tell you how

1404
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:52,120
Speaker 1: they're going to accomplish the feats that they want to accomplish.

1405
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 1: And Donald Trump and Project twenty twenty five was talking

1406
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:59,080
Speaker 1: about the feats they'll accomplish, and they in some ways

1407
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 1: just sort of dismissive of the means, which is very

1408
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 1: offensive to a lot of people because the means are

1409
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: kind of ugly. We're seeing some ugly means right now.

1410
01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:12,680
Speaker 1: But if you're asking me why Project twenty twenty five

1411
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:19,320
Speaker 1: seem to connect oddly and Hillary Clinton's twenty seven point

1412
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 1: plans didn't land with the same I think it really

1413
01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:26,720
Speaker 1: is an on presentation and how you do it. All right,

1414
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:31,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it a episode there. Thank you for

1415
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:33,960
Speaker 1: tuning in. Don't forget to like and to subscribe. Don't

1416
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:37,240
Speaker 1: forget to take a look at my Steve Bannon interview

1417
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 1: for a new Sphere terrific. If you're a you consider

1418
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:47,040
Speaker 1: yourself an elite news junkie, then you should be subscribing

1419
01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:50,519
Speaker 1: to Newsphere right now. If you want to feel like

1420
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:52,600
Speaker 1: you know what's going on in every hot spot in

1421
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 1: the world.

1422
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 4: You need to be subscribing to Newsphere, so I hope

1423
01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:59,000
Speaker 4: you check it out and take a look at it.

1424
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 4: Other than that, if I can subscribe and I'll see

1425
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:04,160
Speaker 4: you the next time I update this pod.

1426
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 1: Until we upload again.

1427
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:06,560
Speaker 3: M