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Speaker 1: Hey there everybody. It is Thursday, January twenty ninth, and

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Speaker 1: WHOA what a final day of testimony in the O

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Speaker 1: pair A fair double murder trial. Welcome to this episode

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Speaker 1: of Amy and TJ. Robes. The jury has heard all

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Speaker 1: they are going to hear. No more evidence to be presented.

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Speaker 1: Pretty explosive last day.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there were quite a few topics that even we

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Speaker 2: weren't expecting in a case that already is salacious just

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Speaker 2: by what it is in terms of fetish websites, etc.

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Speaker 2: It shouldn't be shocking that then it got even more cringey.

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Speaker 2: And I say cringey because it was tough to hear

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Speaker 2: the man, the husband, the father who was accused of

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Speaker 2: a heinous double murder, rowing his dead wife's reputation. I

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Speaker 2: say that no under the bus because he's describing her

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Speaker 2: deviant sexual fantasies and some relationships affairs that he's testifying

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Speaker 2: to that she had that were hard to hear.

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Speaker 1: Well the day, folks, they did stay on schedule like

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Speaker 1: the judge wanted. And yes, testimony has rapped with the

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Speaker 1: day started with the star witness and the defendant, Brendan

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Speaker 1: Banfil on the stand. Something so rare in a murder

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Speaker 1: case to have the defendant take the stand. But he

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Speaker 1: took the stand, started yesterday, wrapped up today, was cross examined,

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Speaker 1: and then we had two rebuttal witnesses from the prosecution.

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Speaker 1: We'll get into that certainly did not land. There cannot

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Speaker 1: be anybody who thinks that landed today ropes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm wondering now. Obviously it's easy to second guess yourself.

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Speaker 2: Monday money, Monday morning quarterbacking. But those two rebuttal witnesses

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Speaker 2: not only didn't help the prosecution's case, they may have

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Speaker 2: even the prosecution's case.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so we certainly got to get into that.

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Speaker 1: But let's start here, Yes, with the cross examination, right,

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Speaker 1: there was so much anticipation for this, and actually she

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Speaker 1: didn't take as long with him as I thought she might.

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Speaker 3: I was surprised how quickly she was done with him.

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Speaker 2: Her main thing was to question, and I think this

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Speaker 2: landed in a lot of ways. I was trying to

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Speaker 2: again imagine what it would be like as a juror.

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Speaker 2: But her point being, you're sitting here saying and testifying

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Speaker 2: that it was just an affair with you know, just

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Speaker 2: a random affair, just like any other affair.

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Speaker 3: Why would I plan to kill.

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Speaker 2: My wife when I've obviously been someone who's had affairs.

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Speaker 2: But then they're producing these fourteen page love letters that

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Speaker 2: he is writing to Juliana the A pair. She's pointing out,

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Speaker 2: you know, all of the other evidence that points to

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Speaker 2: something more than just some casual affair.

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Speaker 3: She said baby names.

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Speaker 2: She had messages, text messages with Juliana and him talking

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Speaker 2: about their future baby names.

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Speaker 3: So she's like, you were or were not planning a

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Speaker 3: future with.

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Speaker 2: This woman, and oh, you only fell in love with

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Speaker 2: her after your wife died. So look, you know that's

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Speaker 2: in question because upon rebuttal, he testified with his attorney

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Speaker 2: that they were actually broken up.

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Speaker 3: The O pair and him were broken up the day

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Speaker 3: of the.

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Speaker 1: Murder, and loo he that's a little does does it

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Speaker 1: make his story less believable? That makes him less believable? Like,

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Speaker 1: come on, to be straight with me, here, you were

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Speaker 1: saying some pretty strong romantic stuff to this woman. And look,

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Speaker 1: maybe he got caught up in the moment, maybe he

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Speaker 1: didn't feel that deep to him, maybe just telling her

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Speaker 1: what she wanted to hear. All those things are possible,

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Speaker 1: but he didn't explain it well enough he was very

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Speaker 1: methodical and matter of fact, and how he was handling

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Speaker 1: all this, Yes, he.

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Speaker 3: Was, you know what.

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Speaker 2: His lack of emotion and especially especially earlier this morning

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Speaker 2: when he was describing the unthinkable, to imagine holding your

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Speaker 2: dying wife in your hands as blood is pouring out

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Speaker 2: of her and the last few he was his voice

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Speaker 2: was shaky, but there was not the emotion one would

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Speaker 2: have expected. And I know it shouldn't matter technically in evidence,

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Speaker 2: but you can't help as a human and as a

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Speaker 2: juror to look at somebody and say, wow, that was

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Speaker 2: kind of robotic.

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Speaker 1: I can tip the balance when you have two stories

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Speaker 1: you're trying to match up. I don't know who to believe.

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Speaker 1: Every little moment counting yeah, robes he was. He was

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Speaker 1: a robot almost up there for much of his testimony.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing that the prosecutor was really trying

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Speaker 2: to hit him hard on as in the cross examination,

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Speaker 2: was how did why.

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Speaker 3: Would the nanny or the au pair have the code

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Speaker 3: to his gun safe?

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Speaker 2: That is that best practices, is that something that you're

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Speaker 2: trained to do to let someone else in your family

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Speaker 2: know your code to your gun safe.

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Speaker 3: So that was a big thing for her question.

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Speaker 1: I thought this was a waste of time, just in

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Speaker 1: my opinion. Okay, fine, I'm saying there was a simple explanation.

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Speaker 1: We're in and out of the house together all the time,

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Speaker 1: eas me punching my code. She happened to be in

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Speaker 1: the closet and saw me punching the same code. It's

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Speaker 1: not like some clandestine secret thing. Ooh take. I didn't

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Speaker 1: think much of that at all. There were several moments

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Speaker 1: today where I thought the prosecution was reaching. They didn't

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Speaker 1: have much, And I said to you, some of her

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Speaker 1: questions were like, come on, man, it felt like she

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Speaker 1: didn't have anything, Like really, I like a sarcasm.

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Speaker 2: Her big problem is she was so sarcastic throughout all

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Speaker 2: of the cross examination.

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Speaker 3: And look, I get it.

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Speaker 2: It is just by nature a combative situation when you're

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Speaker 2: cross examining someone, So you don't need to add the

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Speaker 2: sarcasm and laying it on because really just obviously your

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Speaker 2: adversaries in this conversation in front of the jury. But

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Speaker 2: it just I thought it was unnecessary, and she definitely.

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Speaker 3: Came off as well.

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Speaker 2: Just I don't know, she didn't come off good and

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Speaker 2: that did and that does impact the jury when you're

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Speaker 2: watching someone's demeanor and how they treat anybody on the stand,

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Speaker 2: even if that is the defendant.

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Speaker 1: No, I didn't think she exposed holes in his story.

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Speaker 1: I guess she exposed a little more of him. I

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Speaker 1: think that makes more of an impact than anything he said.

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Speaker 1: And listening to his story, there are a few points

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Speaker 1: right that doesn't really make sense, but nothing that would

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Speaker 1: overwhelmingly tip the scales compared to the story that the

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Speaker 1: old pair told.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what was interesting, she never went where

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Speaker 2: I thought she was going to go, which is and

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Speaker 2: maybe this would have all been objected to and sustained.

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Speaker 3: But you know, why would a man, you know.

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Speaker 2: Was it surprising to you in your in your you know,

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Speaker 2: I guess you're training as a law enforcement officer that

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Speaker 2: if someone you have a gun, someone's going to, you know,

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Speaker 2: take a night like just questioning the motive or why

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Speaker 2: would did he not think you were going to shoot?

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Speaker 2: Why do you think he stepped like I know, I

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Speaker 2: guess I would have all been speculative, but I guess

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Speaker 2: I wanted her to try to get him into the

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Speaker 2: mindset of explaining, Wow, God's name, if you have a

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Speaker 2: gun on somebody, were they able to stab your wife

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Speaker 2: right in front of you.

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Speaker 1: She gave him a lot of scenarios of why didn't

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Speaker 1: you do this? So, why didn't you do that? And

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Speaker 1: why didn't you do this? And why didn't you do that?

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Speaker 3: But she didn't do it. When it came to actually

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Speaker 3: having the gun.

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Speaker 1: In his hand, well do you remember the locks? Well,

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Speaker 1: why didn't you lock the door that could have kept

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Speaker 1: it everybody safe? And why did you do this? And

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Speaker 1: why did you do that in the moment, In the

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Speaker 1: heat of the moment, I would give a lot of

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Speaker 1: people to pass on that. I just the story that

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Speaker 1: the problems I had with the story are not necessarily

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Speaker 1: because of the question she asked. It's just him having

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Speaker 1: to tell that story. Some of it doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's the biggest issue the story he is telling.

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Speaker 2: Even when he was testifying to his own defense attorney,

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Speaker 2: it just wasn't landing.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that she further poked any holes.

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Speaker 2: She was also hung up on how did you not

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Speaker 2: see how many times.

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Speaker 3: He stabbed her?

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Speaker 2: And so I could give him a pass on that too,

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Speaker 2: because he doesn't know what happened before he walked into

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Speaker 2: the room and if you are scared and looking down

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Speaker 2: a barrel of a gun, or at least you're the

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Speaker 2: one you have tunnel vision, which he said, So I

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Speaker 2: bought all of that.

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Speaker 3: So the thing she was trying to prove didn't really work.

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Speaker 1: He's not trained in these scenarios. He's an IRS agent.

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Speaker 1: He walks into an office and puts handcuffs on a

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Speaker 1: guy in a suit. Don't get me wrong, It's not

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Speaker 1: that simple. I'm not saying that. But this is a

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Speaker 1: life or death situation. This is not something he does

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Speaker 1: every day, so you could give him a pass. Roes.

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Speaker 1: The thing that did come out of this and that

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Speaker 1: was very uncomfortable. This was during cross examination, which was

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Speaker 1: the sexual I guess interests of his wife, Christine, and

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Speaker 1: I can't remember how it initially came up, but talked

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Speaker 1: about the affair she had had, but also he said

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Speaker 1: she had shown interest in bondage. Yeah, in their relationship

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Speaker 1: plenty of times in the past.

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Speaker 2: He said that, and then upon redirect, his attorney then

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Speaker 2: took that to then launch off on this BDSM affair.

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Speaker 2: And that is when Brendan Manfield uncomfortably testified, saying that

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Speaker 2: he saw his wife's bruises on her arm, on her legs,

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Speaker 2: I guess on her breasts or in her chest area, and.

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Speaker 1: We said they were significant. Is the word he used.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he said I questioned her enjoyment of it. It

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Speaker 2: was a pretty emotional conversation. I think what was even

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Speaker 2: worse is he talked about how his wife was a

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Speaker 2: sexual assault nurse examiner.

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Speaker 3: At that time and that she seemed to bring.

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Speaker 2: Some cases home with her and had an obsessive interest

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Speaker 2: in sexual violence that was disturbing.

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Speaker 1: He described a second bondage relationship that she had that

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Speaker 1: turned into a situation with a guy was a stalker.

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Speaker 1: So the only reason he Brendan knew about it is

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Speaker 1: because she had to tell him about it because she

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Speaker 1: got scared of the guy and he was pretty scary guy.

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Speaker 1: So he's recalling these instances robes that lends itself to

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Speaker 1: the idea that maybe feed life, maybe that was her profile,

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Speaker 1: Maybe this is something she was into.

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Speaker 2: And that is absolutely what the defense was trying to establish,

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Speaker 2: and Brendan saying that he never and had no interest

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Speaker 2: in that sort of website.

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Speaker 3: It was interesting.

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Speaker 2: This is another point where the prosecutor tried to get

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Speaker 2: him like an AHA moment in her cross examination and said.

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Speaker 3: You said you aren't into fetishes.

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Speaker 2: And then she said, why then, is one of your

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Speaker 2: affairs with And she gave the woman's.

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Speaker 3: Name and said that he met her.

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Speaker 2: He asked her to call or she asked him to

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Speaker 2: call her sugar baby.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was some website focused on sugar baby. And

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Speaker 1: the prosecution was like, gotcha, you're not in the fetish stuff. Huh,

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Speaker 1: but what about this website about sugar babies? And he

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Speaker 1: looked almost confused. I kind of did too ropes of

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Speaker 1: sugar baby, sugar Mama, sugar daddy. Everybody understands what this is.

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Speaker 1: It's not a.

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Speaker 2: Fetish, Yes, he said, that's not a fetish. She said,

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Speaker 2: I just knew I was a married man and wanted

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Speaker 2: to have somebody who understood I was married and understood

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Speaker 2: the nature of the relationship.

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Speaker 1: He said, it's not a fetish. It's an arrangement.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly what he said. And that landed. It's not

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Speaker 3: a fetish, it's an arrangement.

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Speaker 1: What land is not just that maybe he's not into

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Speaker 1: fetish stuff. What landed is that she was reaching. It

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Speaker 1: was that type of thing today that come on, I'm

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Speaker 1: not a kid. Why did you even bring that up.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an idiot. It's not the same thing, right,

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Speaker 1: she said several moments today where it seemed like that happened.

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Speaker 1: How the jury always try to put ourselves in the

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Speaker 1: jury box. Yes, this is how we read it today.

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Speaker 1: But stay with us here, folks. The most explosive moments

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Speaker 1: in the courtroom, a couple of them had to do

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Speaker 1: with two pretty big duds in the courtroom today. Also

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Speaker 1: we did learn the fate of the old pair. Stay

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Speaker 1: here all right, folks, Welcome back here to AVI and TJ.

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Speaker 1: As we look at each other trying to decide which

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Speaker 1: one of us is going to talk first after the break,

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Speaker 1: But here's talking about the testimony is over and the

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Speaker 1: od Pair affair trial in Fairfax County, Virginia. The defense

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Speaker 1: prosecution both have rested. They are working on the jury

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Speaker 1: instructions this evening and they are doing closing arguments tomorrow

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Speaker 1: ten am Eastern time. Is the plan, and the jury

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Speaker 1: will have this case robes. I think we just found

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Speaker 1: out yesterday that the prosecution was going to put on

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Speaker 1: rebuttal witnesses to rebuttal witnesses. Yes, so anyway, they came

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Speaker 1: up last minute. One was yesterday, one was found.

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Speaker 2: Was yesterday, and then there was a new one in

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Speaker 2: the morning day because they said last night or when

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Speaker 2: they got back from court yesterday. Someone after hearing Brendan

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Speaker 2: Banfield's testimony, asked to testify to basically refute some of

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Speaker 2: what Brendan Banfield had testified too. So we did know

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Speaker 2: who this was going to be, and they did save

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Speaker 2: this person for line.

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Speaker 1: That's big brogues. Come on, now, we found out about

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Speaker 1: first thing this morning. The defense didn't know about it.

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Speaker 1: The prosecution said they didn't even know about it. Big surprise,

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Speaker 1: bombshell witness.

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Speaker 2: All we knew was that his name was t. Patrick Smith.

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Speaker 2: That's a pretty generic name. So who's that We had

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Speaker 2: to wait and find.

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Speaker 1: Out, and we found out their final witness, T Patrick Smith,

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Speaker 1: happened to be an IRS special agent in the same

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Speaker 1: office where Brendan Banfield worked. They were co workers, but

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Speaker 1: on the day that Brendan Banfield his wife died, this

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Speaker 1: man had been elevated temporarily to the agent in charge

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Speaker 1: of the.

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Speaker 3: Office, the supervising manager.

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Speaker 1: So to say, there you go, he was the guy

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Speaker 1: in that office. Brendan Banfield didn't come to work that day,

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Speaker 1: of course, because he was caught up in other affairs,

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Speaker 1: if you will. Now, the point they were trying to

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Speaker 1: make with this witness.

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Speaker 2: Was what well, so Brendan had testified that the day

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Speaker 2: of the murders was a big day for him at work,

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Speaker 2: and that's why he left the home early. That's why

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Speaker 2: he went to McDonald's just to eat off of the

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Speaker 2: parking lot, to get ready, to make sure he got

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Speaker 2: to the office early, to set up the conference room,

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Speaker 2: because he had a big meeting about a big undercover

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Speaker 2: operation where he was up for a promotion, so he

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Speaker 2: wanted to make sure he was ready to go. So

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Speaker 2: the point of bringing his supervisor in and why his

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Speaker 2: supervisor volunteered is that, hey, he was his manager and

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Speaker 2: he wasn't in the office. The actual other manager was

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Speaker 2: overseas and any of the other agents who could even

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Speaker 2: been considered above him in rank were in the state

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Speaker 2: of Georgia. So his point was he couldn't have had

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Speaker 2: a meeting with a manager because no managers were even

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Speaker 2: in the office at the time.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Guilty, guilty, guilty.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that he tested they'll talk about the clothes.

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Speaker 2: Was how he dressed when he had a meeting, he

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Speaker 2: said he dressed elevated. He came in a suit and

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Speaker 2: a tie, and he dressed to impress. And you would

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Speaker 2: he show up in jeans and a sweater. No, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so these are the big aha moments.

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Speaker 1: But when we wait, what was the point that Brendan

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Speaker 1: was wearing what that morning?

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Speaker 2: I think he was wearing like a sweater and jeans,

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Speaker 2: just very casual, casual, like a casual outfit. Not something

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Speaker 2: you would think if it was a big meeting with

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Speaker 2: the bosses, you would think maybe he would have elevated

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Speaker 2: his attire.

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Speaker 3: That was the implication.

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Speaker 2: But when Brendan's defense attorney got his moment with Brendan's supervisor,

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Speaker 2: it was delicious.

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Speaker 1: He had a good day. He actually had a good day.

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Speaker 1: He time after time in almost a repetitive tone, spitting

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Speaker 1: names at him that he didn't know. All of these

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Speaker 1: were people and agents who worked in that office that

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Speaker 1: the police interviewed about Brendan Banfield. But they didn't interview

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Speaker 1: this guy that's sitting on the stand. So why is

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Speaker 1: it that the police found all these other agent stories

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Speaker 1: relevant to the investigation of double murder? Not you until

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Speaker 1: the last day of trial, you call up and now

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Speaker 1: here you.

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Speaker 2: Are, And he got him to admit that he was

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Speaker 2: kind of annoyed that no one had asked him for

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Speaker 2: an interview, that he had found out that everybody else

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Speaker 2: had he gotten interviewed except for the person who was

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Speaker 2: technically Brendan's supervisor that day, and he didn't get interviewed.

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Speaker 2: So he it worked. It worked what Brendan's attorney was

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Speaker 2: trying to do. And I don't even know that Special

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Speaker 2: Agent Smith knew what was happening.

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Speaker 1: How would it? Why make that decision to put him

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Speaker 1: on your case? Is your case? You never thought you

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Speaker 1: had this guy? He calls you the day before the

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Speaker 1: last day, and you scrambled, can you do enough research

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Speaker 1: to make sure this is going to go okay? In

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Speaker 1: a night? And it fell flat on them? But Roe,

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Speaker 1: if that one fell flat, the one before that was

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Speaker 1: an embarrassment. Yeah, the one before that was I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: that strong language, but Robes, this was not a good look.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they so the prosecution bought brought a rebuttal witness.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, to the defense's witness who was testifying

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Speaker 2: that in that nine one one call, that very short

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Speaker 2: nine one one call where there was a hang up.

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Speaker 3: You could hear a moaning, and.

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Speaker 2: The defense had an audio expert say that that was

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Speaker 2: their dog moaning, that wasn't a human moaning, and so.

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Speaker 1: Very technical and how he explained it all. But he

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Speaker 1: landed his plane and we understood what he was trying

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Speaker 1: to say.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And so they bring on the state brings on

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Speaker 2: their own rebuttal witness who's saying, you can't say that,

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Speaker 2: And he said, I heard something right before the moaning,

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Speaker 2: and it was a human voice and it said.

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Speaker 3: Sidebar, sidebar, sidebar ropes.

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Speaker 1: Been too many sidebars in this case. This certainly was

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Speaker 1: one of the longer ones on the longer side. After

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Speaker 1: that huge moment, huge moment, a voice on the call,

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Speaker 1: we haven't heard about. What did it say? They stopped? Sidebar?

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Speaker 1: Come back, no further questions, Gianna. Whatever happened in that

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Speaker 1: sidebar ropes? That was a tough look. It came off

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Speaker 1: as if she was up to something and she got

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Speaker 1: caught doing it. And the judge said, we are not

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Speaker 1: having it. And the defense attorney hasn't had a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of wins.

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Speaker 2: No, and then he went on to win further across

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Speaker 2: examination when he started to look into the practices and

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Speaker 2: how he came up with his belief that it.

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Speaker 3: Might not be a dog moaning.

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Speaker 2: Turns out this witness doesn't use the technology necessary to

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Speaker 2: discern this and was actually using a folded piece of

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Speaker 2: paper to show an audio resonance or some sort of

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Speaker 2: technological term. I can't even relay, but it was basically rudimentary.

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Speaker 2: And the defense attorney just said, so, you just brought

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Speaker 2: a piece of folded paper.

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Speaker 3: Is that all you used? And he basically said, yes, that's.

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Speaker 1: All They gave him. The other expert literally he testified

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Speaker 1: that he has been an expert in thirty something trials,

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Speaker 1: specifically doing audio work. This guy admitted his thing is visual.

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Speaker 1: He's never even used the technology before, not testified to

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Speaker 1: hasn't even used it on a case.

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Speaker 3: It was.

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Speaker 2: It was an egg on the face of the prosecutor

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Speaker 2: and we actually don't even understand why they wind it

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Speaker 2: to have a rebuttal witness on that point.

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Speaker 3: It just made them look bad.

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Speaker 1: It made him look he was. This guy gave daze

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Speaker 1: of technical frickin' testimony. He comes up and literally folds

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Speaker 1: a piece of paper that has a graph on it

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Speaker 1: and says, hey, look at this and you see this.

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Speaker 3: And then it was bizarre.

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Speaker 1: It was bizarre, and tell I didn't hear it. At

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Speaker 1: the end, what's the deal with the opair? What are

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Speaker 1: they say?

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Speaker 2: So yes, at the very end, the prosecution asked the

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Speaker 2: judge to basically release uh. Juliana margallized the O pair

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Speaker 2: because she had been on the recall this. She could

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Speaker 2: have been recalled, interestingly, because I thought maybe they would

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Speaker 2: after Brendan Banfield testified to what he did. I was

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Speaker 2: thinking the prosecution she might be one of their rebuttal witnesses,

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Speaker 2: and they were keeping that as an option. And at

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Speaker 2: the end she said, we are done. We have no

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Speaker 2: further questions for her. Can she be released so she

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Speaker 2: can basically leave jail and head back to her home

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Speaker 2: country of Brazil, And the judge said yes, So as

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Speaker 2: we're recording this, Juliana Marclay is the O pair, maybe

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Speaker 2: literally leaving jail as we record this and getting on

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Speaker 2: a plane.

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Speaker 1: The woman who has admitted she delivered what is believed

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Speaker 1: to be the fatal shot to Joe Ryan, made her deal,

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Speaker 1: told her story. She's out of here scot free. What

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Speaker 1: a case this has been, Folks, Closing arguments tomorrow morning

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Speaker 1: ten am. We will be listening. We'll keep you updated.

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Speaker 1: Thank you as always for going along with us on

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Speaker 1: these trials. But for now I am TJ. Holmes alongside

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Speaker 1: Amy Robock. We will talk to you also