Speaker 1: Also media.
Speaker 2: Hello everyone, it's me today James, and I'm joined by
Speaker 2: Benevan from the YPJ Information Authors, and we're going to
Speaker 2: discuss today and chiefly that the Turkish bombing campaign against
Speaker 2: it which has been happening in the last few weeks
Speaker 2: and the last few months and the last few years.
Speaker 2: So we wanted to set that in context for you.
Speaker 2: And everyone's attention has been very much focused on other conflicts,
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean that this one isn't important, and
Speaker 2: it's one that obviously listeners will be familiar with, so
Speaker 2: we wanted to bring you an update on that. Welcome,
Speaker 2: very vun Hello, thank you, Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 3: Okay, happy to be here today. Good.
Speaker 2: Let's start by, I think, just in case people need
Speaker 2: a refresher or they haven't listened to some of the
Speaker 2: other stuff, talk about what's happening in and why they
Speaker 2: I guess why. It's why it's unique and what makes
Speaker 2: it special.
Speaker 3: Okay, So, actually right now in Java, for more than
Speaker 3: ten years there's a revolution happening. I think most people
Speaker 3: heard that. For some twenty eleven and so on, there
Speaker 3: was like something called the Arab string. But actually in
Speaker 3: the same time in this region in northern east Syria
Speaker 3: actually also called like in the northern eastern part of Syria,
Speaker 3: there's a region called Java, which is like a big
Speaker 3: part of Kurtish population. There's also Christian population like Assyria,
Speaker 3: and Arminian population and also Arab population. Like it's a
Speaker 3: very colorful region, you can say. So in this region
Speaker 3: twenty eleven, in this time and then twenty twelve, a
Speaker 3: revolution started, which is actually based on a long term
Speaker 3: struggle of the Kurdish movement and its experiences. And the
Speaker 3: revolution was like mostly based on the idea to gain
Speaker 3: democratic autonomy and today gain like democratic self administration. Why
Speaker 3: because like the Syrian regime on the one hand was
Speaker 3: like very oppressive towards the Kurdish people and on the
Speaker 3: other hand, like it was like out topered Parian regime.
Speaker 3: So there was like this wish to create something different,
Speaker 3: which was actually created here in the region in Java. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so I think this we can say at first, like
Speaker 3: what happened was that relusion started and until today it's continuing.
Speaker 3: Like it's a very like basic change of people's life.
Speaker 3: We can say that happened here like democratic administration in
Speaker 3: all areas of life, and also like, for example, a
Speaker 3: great deal of a women's organization to achieve also women's
Speaker 3: So the solutions like based on these principles of democratic
Speaker 3: self administration, of women's freedom, and also of ecologies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, perhaps you can explain people who aren't familiar a
Speaker 2: little bit more about the women's revolution, because I think
Speaker 2: that is something that that's extremely unique and that people
Speaker 2: might not have like if they've heard of it, perhaps
Speaker 2: they haven't really you know, I think the mainstream press
Speaker 2: doesn't covered particularly well. So if you could explain, like
Speaker 2: maybe something about the co chair system or the relationship
Speaker 2: between yourselves and the yepigae and how that works.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So actually I was just something like speaking about
Speaker 3: the like when the revolution was happening, so I from
Speaker 3: beginning online women also took place in it, like which
Speaker 3: was already occasion the code of freedom movement in general,
Speaker 3: is like that woman was like equally were equally taking
Speaker 3: part in it and also always founded their own organizations,
Speaker 3: like not like substitute to a general organization or something
Speaker 3: like this, but actually like their own organization that at
Speaker 3: the same time cooperate with the general organization. So there
Speaker 3: was already this principle of women's autonomy. So this was
Speaker 3: also adopted in Rehervoir. So in all areas which also
Speaker 3: includes like political areas, areas of daily life, but also
Speaker 3: military fields, women organized. So actually in the beginning of
Speaker 3: the solution, they were like the society's kind of self
Speaker 3: defense forces building us and in the beginning there were
Speaker 3: already women in it. And then there was also the
Speaker 3: foundation of hitep Gay like the people's Defense forces. But
Speaker 3: after this also the White Pgay women's Protection units were founded.
Speaker 3: So actually it's like a fully autonomous women's units that
Speaker 3: take care of defending their homeland on the one hand,
Speaker 3: but on the other hand, also made like a great
Speaker 3: deal of change in the society in the daily life
Speaker 3: of women because in the region that was before like
Speaker 3: maybe to somebody like feudal or like because of the
Speaker 3: authoria tennestry in the state, like there was no protection
Speaker 3: for women's rights or something like this, and for example,
Speaker 3: there was like the traditions of marrying a woman at
Speaker 3: a young age or something like this. This was actually
Speaker 3: changed by this woman's polution, Like the everyday life of
Speaker 3: women was a change and is still changing, like it's
Speaker 3: still a struggle because it meets changing the society in general. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so there's like in every area of life today there's
Speaker 3: like autonomous women's organization and the existing which makes its
Speaker 3: with the main the most like profound woman's solution that
Speaker 3: on to now is happening, I think. So it's like
Speaker 3: really important like samplers for a woman. Everyone in the.
Speaker 2: Work, Yeah, very much, and it is a genuinely profound change.
Speaker 2: Having spent a little bit of time there earlier this year,
Speaker 2: that it's very notable that you spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time in that part of the world, how different things are.
Speaker 2: And then perhaps we should talk about the battle against
Speaker 2: the so called Samic state or dasher Isis or whatever
Speaker 2: you want to call it. In the role that THEPGPJ
Speaker 2: and SDF played in that, I can explain a little
Speaker 2: about about that fight and the fighting that happened. And
Speaker 2: also like the tremendous number of people who died fighting
Speaker 2: or were martyred in the language it is used by
Speaker 2: the revolution about them.
Speaker 3: So like, uh, in general, I think everyone in the
Speaker 3: work for listen to the name of the White jas
Speaker 3: Woman's Protection Units and the relationship to ISIS. But actually
Speaker 3: from the beginning on they fought like against this kind
Speaker 3: of let's say like different like fundamentalists or mercenary groups
Speaker 3: that were existing in the region, and when Isis was
Speaker 3: coming up, Like the biggest almost known battle that actually
Speaker 3: the world for the first time really saw was the
Speaker 3: Battle for Kobanis where for example, the hypj with like
Speaker 3: very very limited possibilities and the fought against the Isis
Speaker 3: and actually succeeded like to defeat iss and to defend
Speaker 3: the city of Kobani, which was kind of like a
Speaker 3: breaking point where things started to turn around. Or we
Speaker 3: have also had the point where forks are the Shanngha
Speaker 3: was attacked, which is like in south post de Son,
Speaker 3: it's not like in the era region, it's not even
Speaker 3: in the same region. But the YPA also played like
Speaker 3: the role in opening a corridor for the people who
Speaker 3: tried to flee for the Yuzd people who like are
Speaker 3: people who have faced like many genocides in history, and
Speaker 3: in order to save them from the genocide of Isis,
Speaker 3: the RPJA opened a corridor to help them to flee.
Speaker 3: So and there are like many stories or like in
Speaker 3: the end, the liberation of the city of Racca, which
Speaker 3: was kind of known like as the center of the ISIS,
Speaker 3: which also we can say like the Women's Force played
Speaker 3: like a junior rein God this. So there are many
Speaker 3: examples where we can say, like how deciding for examples
Speaker 3: as of the Vibea was for the defeat of ISIS.
Speaker 3: And I think on the other hand, we also have
Speaker 3: to say that it is not completely defeated, because it
Speaker 3: seemed like some support from outside structures, like from Turkey,
Speaker 3: so there are still some like sales or form. There
Speaker 3: are a lot of details detainees like before that was
Speaker 3: happening at a try to break out from the detention
Speaker 3: centers in twenty twenty two, So it's not like it's
Speaker 3: completely vanished from the earth, but the actual defeat was
Speaker 3: like reached by the JAP.
Speaker 2: For Yeah, I think it's very important too. Like you
Speaker 2: spoke about those like incarcerated ice form RIIS fighters right
Speaker 2: and their attempt to break out. I think that's maybe
Speaker 2: a good chance for us to talk about like some
Speaker 2: other former risis fighters and like guarding in I think
Speaker 2: it was called Turkey called Operation peace Spring. I think right,
Speaker 2: like the these these Turkish incursions into uh into into Rojaba,
Speaker 2: into like and and into like Syrian territory, can you
Speaker 2: explain a little bit about like how I guess this
Speaker 2: will get us to the modern day and and the bombing,
Speaker 2: but like perhaps you can explain how this started. Obviously
Speaker 2: Turkey has been opposed to the Kurdish freedom movement since
Speaker 2: its inception, right since the very beginning and in the
Speaker 2: last century. But preps, you could explain like this series
Speaker 2: of ongoing Turkish aggressions against what's happening in Java now
Speaker 2: and like how that began and how that's manifested itself
Speaker 2: over the years.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, like after ISOs was defeated to some degree,
Speaker 3: actually Turkey for self started occupation attacks like and twenty
Speaker 3: eighteen nineteen and started the occupation was first against Afrine
Speaker 3: and then against tel Khania and Guido Speir, which are
Speaker 3: all like very important regions of Bova that are like
Speaker 3: directly next to the Turkish border, like you see, like
Speaker 3: directly in between Syria and the Turkey like next to
Speaker 3: the Turkish borders. So they directly attacked these cities next
Speaker 3: to the border, which actually most of our cities are
Speaker 3: directly next to the border, and they occupied them. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that's important to understand like a little bit
Speaker 3: because actually there are took plans to occupy, occupy like
Speaker 3: the region along the border, not only the cities that
Speaker 3: they occupied. Until now, this is a very very violent
Speaker 3: war with using aircraft and so on. Like in the
Speaker 3: last years, uh Tooki very much invested in two drone
Speaker 3: technology and so on, and they used also chemical weapons
Speaker 3: like very famous in two nineteen the video of a
Speaker 3: young child the name Mohammad went around the world that
Speaker 3: like was like born by phosphorus in Secania in the
Speaker 3: occupation attack. So like actually it's a like a war
Speaker 3: that is smallest sleep fought also with the most like
Speaker 3: gutty yeah methods that took his waging around the region.
Speaker 3: And after this, like we can't say like after Secane
Speaker 3: was occupied, Tooki actually continued to attack with a war
Speaker 3: that you cannot say like at this time it starts
Speaker 3: and in this time and it's more like continuous attacks.
Speaker 3: So on the one hand, like some areas are always
Speaker 3: getting bombed in the last years, like for examples like
Speaker 3: artillery shelling and one like a share bar next to
Speaker 3: Arthleene or iron Eesa or the tam so like the
Speaker 3: areas that are close to the occupied areas were now
Speaker 3: Turkey and mercenary forces are stations that constantly attacked more
Speaker 3: or less the regions, but also with a drone war
Speaker 3: like the first I think, very like clear example of
Speaker 3: what was the strategy like in the last years was
Speaker 3: on the twenty third June two down twenty when Turkey
Speaker 3: killed three women of conguers the women's movement, like the
Speaker 3: civil women's movement in Kobani in the village, which were
Speaker 3: all like two of them were like in the leadership
Speaker 3: of the women's movement and one was just like a
Speaker 3: man well, and they were sitting in the garden and
Speaker 3: they were talking and at this time like a Turk
Speaker 3: a shtrongest strike and they all lost their lives. So
Speaker 3: like a lot of these kinds of attacks happened after this,
Speaker 3: like against like let's say, like civil leaders of society,
Speaker 3: like politicians, normal people. Also like on the twenty fifth
Speaker 3: of December, actually also on Christmas in twenty twenty one,
Speaker 3: five five chill like young people like youth from the
Speaker 3: youth movement were killed in Kobani also like they're just
Speaker 3: when they were sitting in the garden like members of
Speaker 3: the Youth center, like I took a stone stock three
Speaker 3: of them like a young girls and this continued or
Speaker 3: also we can say like leaders of Fox suble Ypja.
Speaker 3: Also like on the twenty second of July last year,
Speaker 3: there was a conference happening for celebrating ten years of
Speaker 3: women's revolution in Rojaha, and just on the same day,
Speaker 3: Turkey targeted the car of the Rye PJ members. One
Speaker 3: of them was Jian Toldan, who also spoke on the
Speaker 3: same day on the conference. Actually it's quite clear what
Speaker 3: Turki actually once they want to like destroy the revolution
Speaker 3: that's happening in Rushava, like the women's revolution and in general,
Speaker 3: like this change that is happening. They want to create
Speaker 3: like the sphere to stay away to way to the
Speaker 3: Turkish occupation forces. And they're using a lot of violence.
Speaker 3: Like also in the occupied areas, like the people are
Speaker 3: right now, I think that I cannot speak their language.
Speaker 3: They have to fear. Sometimes they cannot close the house doors.
Speaker 3: Sometimes people get like abductor like without anyone knowing why
Speaker 3: or where's they go as I go to the persons
Speaker 3: that be in a prison or would I be fortshot
Speaker 3: or like a very kind of oppressive region. Yeah, now
Speaker 3: in the occupied areas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and those are people who like I've met when
Speaker 2: when they come here, right, people who have lost Like
Speaker 2: I spoke to a guy, a mayor a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks ago. You know, his father had been killed, his
Speaker 2: uncle had been killed, and like he was like what
Speaker 2: should he should? I should I wait to be like
Speaker 2: the last person in my family and then who gets
Speaker 2: killed or like it's it's very the conditions for those
Speaker 2: people in the Turkish occupied parts of northern Kurdistan are very,
Speaker 2: very difficult and oppressive. And I think, like, just to
Speaker 2: build off what you said, like, it's important that people
Speaker 2: realize that these killing of especially like people in the
Speaker 2: Women's Revolution, but also you know, people in in the
Speaker 2: Rajava revolution. More generally, it's not Drone strikes are extremely targeted, right,
Speaker 2: Like they can follow a car from an event and
Speaker 2: strike it. Like it's these kind of these things are
Speaker 2: not it's not like they're it's not like artillery or mortars.
Speaker 2: It's not like you're just sending it into an area.
Speaker 2: Like they're extremely targeted to an individual or a group
Speaker 2: of individuals rather than you know, random attack. So like
Speaker 2: this is a distinct choice that's being made. Well, let's
Speaker 2: talk about the most recent bombings because I think there
Speaker 2: were some particularly egregious ones, even by the standard of
Speaker 2: this campaign, which has been pretty egradition in the beginning.
Speaker 2: But December, around the week of Christmas this year, just
Speaker 2: to give people a time to the period, there was
Speaker 2: a bombings of a if I'm not wrong, a printing press,
Speaker 2: a dialysis facility, is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, we actually there was. There was also another
Speaker 3: like not hospital, like the hospital, let's say like a
Speaker 3: medical point. Also Corbani where doctors was out borders. I
Speaker 3: think it's like kind of a known and Jose they
Speaker 3: were also working there at the oxygen center also, so
Speaker 3: like medical places, there were like normal factories of of
Speaker 3: food production like you said the printing house. There were
Speaker 3: many places like this, like of daily infrastructure that were
Speaker 3: targeted like before, already in October infrastructure was targeted. And
Speaker 3: also last year there was attack Disis and every time
Speaker 3: at least ten civilians got killed, like in all of
Speaker 3: these attacks. So now I think the overall number just
Speaker 3: of these three ways of attacks is already like search
Speaker 3: one killed civilians, so like maybe dawn strike are very targeted,
Speaker 3: but it's not like Turki doesn't want to kill civilians
Speaker 3: or takes care not to kill civilians, like already in
Speaker 3: the attacks of last year, there was an examples of
Speaker 3: double tap attacks for example, which I actually be illegal.
Speaker 3: So I think it's very important to say, like also
Speaker 3: the targeting of medical points of medical infrastructure, that what
Speaker 3: Turkey is doing is not according to international law, Like
Speaker 3: that's not the case, Like Turki is kind of acting
Speaker 3: like however advanced targeting civilians, creating like fear and also
Speaker 3: like in a region that is already poor, Johnny, you
Speaker 3: have to say, like the possibilities that have been created,
Speaker 3: like like for daily needs and so on, for supplies
Speaker 3: of electricity of like heating fuels and so on for
Speaker 3: your house, they are very affected like this right now,
Speaker 3: so like in general, there's like a big shortcoming of
Speaker 3: everything right now and whatever, and just because of these attacks.
Speaker 3: So this is actually affecting everyone. And on the other hand,
Speaker 3: took it to try to create like this feel like
Speaker 3: there's just some wave of attack and just targeting everywhere,
Speaker 3: so they want to displace actually the population and also
Speaker 3: to commit like the politics also to state, especially against
Speaker 3: Scwritish people and also against the Christians, is very much
Speaker 3: like potentially like genocidal politics, like it's not not like
Speaker 3: a limited attack or something like this, Like we don't
Speaker 3: think so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's not a And like you said, they're
Speaker 2: very very much unafraid of killing civilians in the process.
Speaker 2: Like I spoke to a mother whose fifteen year old
Speaker 2: son was killed in a drone strike. I don't think
Speaker 2: it's very hard to make an argument the fifteen year
Speaker 2: old son was doing anything apart from being a fifteen
Speaker 2: year old kid. You know, it's not like this person
Speaker 2: is a legitimate military target. It was a kid who
Speaker 2: played goalkeeper on his local football team. And these double
Speaker 2: tap attacks, Like if people aren't familiar with the double
Speaker 2: tap attack, it's when an attack happened, people go to
Speaker 2: the site of the attack to render aid, right an
Speaker 2: ambulance or baptis bystanders rendering aid or other military personnel
Speaker 2: rendering aid, and then a second attack happened at the
Speaker 2: same place to then attack the people who are rendering aid.
Speaker 2: So you spoke a little bit about like how they're
Speaker 2: trying to attack the whole project and not just individuals.
Speaker 2: I wonder like the drone strikes do have like a
Speaker 2: they change the way they have to be done right,
Speaker 2: like it's it's things become unsafe, like any way you
Speaker 2: can see the sky, right, like having a large gathering,
Speaker 2: or certainly for people who are of more like higher status,
Speaker 2: it's it's dangerous for them to be out and about,
Speaker 2: right Is that fair to say?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean on some level, for sure the dangerous.
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, you cannot always be afraid.
Speaker 3: Like that's like really the reality. Like for example, now,
Speaker 3: because these places were targeted, for example, the infrastructure that
Speaker 3: you need for your life, people actually started to stand
Speaker 3: like next to the electricity center to say, like, if
Speaker 3: we're all here, then they cannot target it. Wow, for
Speaker 3: sure is dangerous as you see, like the they can they.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they've killed a lot of civilians. As you say,
Speaker 2: that's a very brain yes, yeah, and again I think
Speaker 2: I think maybe we should explain actually so that it
Speaker 2: gets very cold in this part of the world in
Speaker 2: the winter, because perhaps people will associate this part of
Speaker 2: the world with like the heat and hot chambers. But
Speaker 2: like you, you have very cold winters, especially in the mountains.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean it's like all more or less flat,
Speaker 3: like it's not so cold, but still it gets like
Speaker 3: under zero degrees, like for sure, you needs the need
Speaker 3: like your house to be warm and so on, like
Speaker 3: just to take care of basic needs. You need your
Speaker 3: car to drive somewhere maybe sometimes at least like some
Speaker 3: people need it for their work or like this. There's
Speaker 3: a lot of basic needs that don't work if if
Speaker 3: all the infrastructure gets stored.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I believe if I'm right in saying,
Speaker 2: this's the one person already passed away because it couldn't
Speaker 2: get directs the dialysis center that was bombed, Is that right.
Speaker 3: Yes, So as I said that one passed away, afterwards
Speaker 3: they brought like a like emergency wise dialogs machine, yeah,
Speaker 3: which I think is very good for the sick people.
Speaker 3: But I'm not sure because also if you don't have
Speaker 3: like a substitute of something happens like only one machine,
Speaker 3: I'm not sure like how much it will actually take
Speaker 3: care of the needs of people. Because I said it
Speaker 3: was like seventy or eighty six people who were going
Speaker 3: to the center, so it's not.
Speaker 2: You yeah, and like I didn't think, Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's certainly not as good as having a proper center, right, Like,
Speaker 2: and there's no reason there's no world in which a
Speaker 2: dialysis center is a legitimate target or printing press, right,
Speaker 2: Like I think that that maybe points to what you're saying,
Speaker 2: like if you're printing books about something, sharing knowledge about something,
Speaker 2: and like perhaps one thing I think you were saying,
Speaker 2: is it right that it to textbooks.
Speaker 3: I think it was like also printing textbook, Okay, like
Speaker 3: it was printing everything, so it's also printing textbooks. Yes,
Speaker 3: like also was printing textbook.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we should point out that, like, you know,
Speaker 2: I speak to Kurdish people almost every day when I'm
Speaker 2: at the border, and they many of them don't read
Speaker 2: and write in Kurdish because in Turkey that's not taught
Speaker 2: in schools, right, they don't have a chance to learn,
Speaker 2: and and so like having those textbooks, having that knowledge,
Speaker 2: like lots of my lots of my friends were saying that,
Speaker 2: like the children because because folks who went to school
Speaker 2: before the revolution went to school in Arabic, So like
Speaker 2: the children are the ones who have like the formal
Speaker 2: education in Kurdish, you know, and that they're building a
Speaker 2: generation that like speaks Kurdish and reads and writes Kurdish
Speaker 2: is their first language. And so like an attempt to
Speaker 2: destroy that isn't just destroying the factory, right is that
Speaker 2: fair to say that it's also destroying like that goal
Speaker 2: of the revolution are more broadly like that attempt to
Speaker 2: like to have that education in Kurdish and let children
Speaker 2: speak their own language in school.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean this is also part of like ustermination politics,
Speaker 3: who deny people their own language, which actually likes Asyrian regime.
Speaker 3: Also that like the only thought in Arabic and now
Speaker 3: for example, the system of the self administration lows everyone
Speaker 3: to learn and different languages. Likeno, there's Arabic, there's Kurdish,
Speaker 3: and even in the very last times are hearts that
Speaker 3: there will also be opened Ausyrian again, which is actually
Speaker 3: really important because it's like a language that is like
Speaker 3: very like most Assyrian people right now speaker and write Arabic,
Speaker 3: though it could be really important.
Speaker 2: Also yeah, yeah, and it's it's I think it's really
Speaker 2: important to point out for people who aren't aware. And
Speaker 2: often in the US media, like Rochio is reported as
Speaker 2: like Kurdish, like a Kurdish area, but it may have
Speaker 2: a majority of court in some cities. But like, yeah,
Speaker 2: there are Assyrian people, there are Arab people that are
Speaker 2: Armenian people, and like they have that same autonomy right
Speaker 2: to educate in their own language and to like organizing
Speaker 2: their own communities.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's what the idea is all about. And I
Speaker 3: think actually like resources in the last time, that was
Speaker 3: kind of trying to create this image of like Perds
Speaker 3: against Arabs, like from the outside in the international media,
Speaker 3: which is absolutely not true. Like the SDS itself is
Speaker 3: like majorly Arabic force. It's not majorly Purish, like if
Speaker 3: you see numbers I think at least, so it's like
Speaker 3: very equal, like everyone who plays a role in US
Speaker 3: and who wants to participate can participate, and everyone has
Speaker 3: a like autonomy also to organize inside of their own
Speaker 3: society or may it be religion or and which like
Speaker 3: also Yazdi people like Kurdish people who are Yazdi religion,
Speaker 3: they also have their own organization here in Yeah, well
Speaker 3: that's very important, and.
Speaker 2: Their own movement in their own area right the year
Speaker 2: Bisho in that in that part of Iraq. Like that's
Speaker 2: like I guess an allied movement, would that'd be fair
Speaker 2: to say?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean very much like follows the same idea
Speaker 3: and the same concept as.
Speaker 2: Yes, and yeah, I've also spoken to az people who
Speaker 2: have come to the United States recently and like, yeah,
Speaker 2: they under the under they had absolutely like inhumane and
Speaker 2: terrible conditions, and if it wasn't for the gay then
Speaker 2: they like they wouldn't be there. The the you know,
Speaker 2: the they the beginning of the their liberation I guess
Speaker 2: came from the gay and something we'll maybe talk about
Speaker 2: another time. It's a long story. I wonder, Yeah, like,
Speaker 2: obviously this isn't something that has been in the news
Speaker 2: as much because people have been so focused on Palestine.
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's worth discussing, like the Turkish States
Speaker 2: completely like like two phased approach, right, like on one
Speaker 2: hand they're saying.
Speaker 3: We have to.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it's unacceptable for the bombing of civilians in
Speaker 2: Palestine and like this is completely wrong, and then on
Speaker 2: the other hand that they're doing the same thing right
Speaker 2: like just on their other border.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm thinking we have to anyway, says like
Speaker 3: Turky is not doing anything good for the Palestinian people,
Speaker 3: Tuki is leading Hamas to such an attack, like supporting
Speaker 3: Hamas and just like very violent attacks that I made,
Speaker 3: which then was like the preset for the war of
Speaker 3: Israel and international forces against the Palestinian people. So actually
Speaker 3: who is like suffering from all of this, it's like
Speaker 3: the normal people, like which is for Israel and Palestine.
Speaker 3: So actually we have to say, like what Chuki is
Speaker 3: doing is against the people, like it's also against the
Speaker 3: Palestinian people. And here like they have criticized to clearly,
Speaker 3: for example, Israel is saying like saying Isa is making
Speaker 3: occupation politics and so on. Still Zuki also has ties
Speaker 3: with Israel. We also have to say, but like they
Speaker 3: are themselves occupying parts of Java in the shadow of
Speaker 3: these attacks that like all the attention of the world
Speaker 3: was going uh into this region. They attacked like also
Speaker 3: calculating that maybe people will not so much look to
Speaker 3: right now, like at the same time, there's like another
Speaker 3: huge war going on in the Middle East, and they
Speaker 3: are making like very clearly like politics of occupation in
Speaker 3: Aftene and Silkanya and also democratic demographic change. So they
Speaker 3: are like displacing people and placing other people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very Yeah, well displacing whom and and placing whom,
Speaker 2: because I think that's important when we talk about like
Speaker 2: that that population and demographic change, like because there's it's
Speaker 2: not they're not just displacing people randomly and replacing them randomly.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, so actually the people that are targeted the
Speaker 3: most are like the Kurdish people in the areas or
Speaker 3: other people that are like not aligned to the state,
Speaker 3: and then who they place like mostly was like you
Speaker 3: see that all the mercenary forces that are actually aligned
Speaker 3: to Turkey or like outside forces already, like they're like
Speaker 3: they are not isis, but they are a little bit
Speaker 3: similar to it. They are like mercenary groups that are
Speaker 3: like more or less like what road they go. It's
Speaker 3: they're clarified from outside the forces, so they are aligned
Speaker 3: to Turkey and from these people for example, they're families
Speaker 3: who are placed in the region on the one hand.
Speaker 3: On the other hand, they were even examples were Turkey
Speaker 3: started to place some Palestinian people also in this region
Speaker 3: or like different like they just do they think they
Speaker 3: can align to Turkey as a state and doing under
Speaker 3: their control. They were placing in these areas that say
Speaker 3: it like this, like to be able to actually what
Speaker 3: is the part of Bolvar a part of Syria, to
Speaker 3: occupy it long term, like to make this last. It's
Speaker 3: not like a short term plant, like they want to
Speaker 3: stay in this area, that it's not prevented if it's
Speaker 3: not liberated again.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I think like again, like people that
Speaker 2: I think have become more aware in recent months, people
Speaker 2: are becoming educated on a situation in Palestine settlements. And
Speaker 2: it's not the fault of the people are Palestine that
Speaker 2: they're being like forced to be driven off their ancestral homelands.
Speaker 2: But like what it does mean is that like they
Speaker 2: could be mobilized by someone like Turkey right to just
Speaker 2: do an occupation to to do it, I guess demographic
Speaker 2: transfer somewhere else, and like that's not a that's not
Speaker 2: like a desirable outcome. We spoke a little bit about
Speaker 2: like this like ongoing hostility here and it can seem
Speaker 2: for people out look, I think people only hear about
Speaker 2: in negative and not negative terms is the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: But like they only it only ever enters the American
Speaker 2: press these days. When something happens right, either an isis
Speaker 2: attack something one of the cat like a Hall or
Speaker 2: a ROJR. But like, also things are continuing to progress, right,
Speaker 2: It's not just a place that is in battled and
Speaker 2: fighting to survive. Like I know, recently a new social
Speaker 2: contract was passed for instance, So maybe you could explain
Speaker 2: a little bit about the progress is still being made
Speaker 2: despite this this ongoing like air war during war and
Speaker 2: land war.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so actually I think we always follow this philosophy
Speaker 3: that we are not like sitting here and saying our
Speaker 3: war will come towards us or like it will not
Speaker 3: be like we are very much helpful and we're always
Speaker 3: working to develop. Like even if these things are happening,
Speaker 3: if these attacks are happening, the solution very very much
Speaker 3: developed and the society changed a lot already, a lot
Speaker 3: of institutions have been built up that before we're not
Speaker 3: existing and so on. And as an outcome also of this,
Speaker 3: the new social contract was formed, which actually is like
Speaker 3: a very democratic process. Like let's say if the state force,
Speaker 3: for example, has the constitution, the state less the self
Speaker 3: administration has a social contract which actually is made by
Speaker 3: the people because until it was made, there was the
Speaker 3: years of discussion, like there were so many meetings, like
Speaker 3: all of the political representatives from the smallest to the
Speaker 3: biggest level, they were all part of the discussion, and
Speaker 3: also the people themselves they could take part in the discussion.
Speaker 3: So now this is for example, ensuring a lot of
Speaker 3: important decisions and now, like the struggle that is before us,
Speaker 3: like that we are facing now is to implement social contract,
Speaker 3: which is very important. It's also guaranteeing a lot of
Speaker 3: pogus for women, it's guaranteeing a lot of focus for society.
Speaker 3: So I think still now like it's a task to
Speaker 3: like see how how it can be implemented in all
Speaker 3: areas because it's always like a very lively process, like
Speaker 3: it always needs the daily struggle, the daily work creating
Speaker 3: like everything from new So there's a lot going on.
Speaker 3: Actually here we can say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely and like it definitely, like it doesn't I
Speaker 2: think it's easy, Like again, if we only report on
Speaker 2: this thing when bad things are happening, like to think
Speaker 2: that it's only better. And there's a lot like people
Speaker 2: are still hopeful, I think, and hopeful for creating and
Speaker 2: spreading like this better future for themselves and the children
Speaker 2: and for the region, which I think is it's really admirable.
Speaker 2: One thing I thought was really amiable is people will
Speaker 2: probably have seen it, but like if they don't like
Speaker 2: follow social media so much. The exchange of statements of
Speaker 2: solidarity between the K and d F, the Cronian National
Speaker 2: Defense Force Battalion five specifically in Myanmar and the YPG
Speaker 2: and YPG in and they've gone back and forth, right,
Speaker 2: But can you explain a little bit about Obviously I
Speaker 2: know that the situation in Mema is very complicated. I
Speaker 2: know I've spent years of my life learning about it.
Speaker 2: But can you explain like the importance of that solidarity
Speaker 2: and like also perhaps like it's not it was a
Speaker 2: risk right for everyone to gather like this in in
Speaker 2: the middle of the drone war to make the statement,
Speaker 2: but can you explain like why that solidarity with something
Speaker 2: they felt was so important.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in Jel it's very important to say,
Speaker 3: like the revolution, it's not like avolution for the people
Speaker 3: of visual itself. It has like a perspective more general,
Speaker 3: like to strengthen the friendship of democratic movements anywhere in
Speaker 3: the world. So for sure, there's a lot of colors
Speaker 3: of movements, a lot of different situations in the world.
Speaker 3: And some might also like let's say, see the solidarity
Speaker 3: very strong because actually they are also like Miama, like
Speaker 3: also facing for example, state system which is very much
Speaker 3: influenced by fascism. Like for some we are facing the
Speaker 3: Turkey or like in general, this kind of oppression and
Speaker 3: trying to liberate from it. So actually we're always trying
Speaker 3: to have like this exchange in general in the world
Speaker 3: and to have like also to build like how let's say,
Speaker 3: like quality, quality relationships, quality friendships with all kinds of
Speaker 3: demo quatic movement. For sure, every everyone is acting on
Speaker 3: a different level and so on. But this is like
Speaker 3: a big something really really important for us in general.
Speaker 3: And I mean, like in the revolution, there were also
Speaker 3: always people from the outside, for example, participating in it,
Speaker 3: so there was always kind of the spirit that this
Speaker 3: is sex the revolution for the word, like the Kurdish
Speaker 3: movement in general has sex's character, like an internationalist character,
Speaker 3: so it's not something like, uh, let's say, like far
Speaker 3: from from us, like it's already something like very close
Speaker 3: to us to say, like we stand in solidarity also
Speaker 3: with other liberation movements.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was very it was. I know
Speaker 2: it's very much appreciated in them, because lots lots of
Speaker 2: people from there have reached out to tell me how
Speaker 2: how much they appreciated it. And like I think some
Speaker 2: of them have been in the revolution for seventy years
Speaker 2: and their world has not paid attention to them, so
Speaker 2: they really appreciated that. And that's that solidarity. And like
Speaker 2: I know that the solidarity runs a lot deeper than statements,
Speaker 2: but like we will cover that they extended that solidarity
Speaker 2: in another episode, because again I think it it merits.
Speaker 2: It's a in recording. I wonder a better van what
Speaker 2: Obviously people will be listening, right, and I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people will be very supportive of the revolution
Speaker 2: in Reja, and they want to help it and see
Speaker 2: it succeed, and certainly not to see No one wants
Speaker 2: to see civilians dying in drone strikes, right, no one
Speaker 2: wants to see anyone drying in drone strikes. But how
Speaker 2: can they if they are in the US or in
Speaker 2: Europe or elsewhere in the world but not in how
Speaker 2: can they help? How can they support the revolution through
Speaker 2: its like difficult, through these difficult moments when people don't
Speaker 2: have electricity to hit their homes in the winter and things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a lot of possibilities like sits
Speaker 3: coming here, which also is the point. But I mean
Speaker 3: in general, like you have all of this these possibilities,
Speaker 3: like from educating yourself, what is the distribution actually about
Speaker 3: understanding it from spreading its ideas, which is maybe the
Speaker 3: most important task. May it be like spreading knowledge about
Speaker 3: the spreading knowledge also about the attacks that are happening,
Speaker 3: clarifying what is happening and why it's happening. To read
Speaker 3: about political backgrounds or sort of international politics. That's very
Speaker 3: important for the senus. And also you can always like
Speaker 3: share for example, let's say you have social media, let's
Speaker 3: tell you're part of the political movement or something. You
Speaker 3: can discuss about it. You can inform yourself about it.
Speaker 3: You can make a presentation about it in your university.
Speaker 3: Like there are so many things that you can do,
Speaker 3: Like you can read the book about it and make
Speaker 3: the book presentation. Like there's a million things a person
Speaker 3: can do. Well as you're doing, you can connect to
Speaker 3: the Kurdish refugees or to the society Kurdish people in
Speaker 3: the diaspora in general, like outside of Curtis, somewherever you
Speaker 3: might be. Yeah, that's possibility. Also, like you can organize solidarity,
Speaker 3: also practical solidarity. Also, like let's say, like intellection works,
Speaker 3: like write a text there, discuss about it. Like maybe
Speaker 3: it's difficult in the beginning to understand some things or
Speaker 3: to gain information. But right now there's actually a lot
Speaker 3: of information also available in English language.
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, you can read for about a year
Speaker 2: and non stuff I think, and still not not have
Speaker 2: read all of it. But are there books You've recommended
Speaker 2: a couple of books to me which I think have
Speaker 2: been really good, and I've shared with my friends and
Speaker 2: Meanmma and I know that they've enjoyed. Are there any
Speaker 2: books that you'd recommend to listeners.
Speaker 3: I mean and Jina, Like this revolution is based on
Speaker 3: the thoughts of abdul so I think a good idea
Speaker 3: if you actually want to understand, like the ideological basis
Speaker 3: of it about women's liberations, about how democratic society can
Speaker 3: be organized. So actually there's like this book called of
Speaker 3: him Sociology of Freedom. I think it's very important, and
Speaker 3: so that's a bit like understandable. I think for someone
Speaker 3: who comes maybe from academic or from a lessis or
Speaker 3: from a democratic background, I think they will read it,
Speaker 3: they will be able to understand it. But there are
Speaker 3: also many other books that are translated to English or
Speaker 3: like texts that are available, or in general there are
Speaker 3: books about the revolution from people for example, coming from
Speaker 3: the outside. I have to think right now in English.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I know there are some also some in
Speaker 3: the different languages about the Woman's revolution. Mm hmmm, so
Speaker 3: I have to think with a yable. I think that's
Speaker 3: also like there's one called like the Politics of Freedom
Speaker 3: or something. And there are some books that were published
Speaker 3: because they were like the diplomatic conferences in most of them,
Speaker 3: I think happening in Europe, which they were like some
Speaker 3: like collections of philosophical discussion, uh like published, So I
Speaker 3: think that's also very available. But I'm sorry I have
Speaker 3: exact tight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, there's a good book called Revolution in
Speaker 2: Rouchev which was translated from German that like, I think
Speaker 2: it lays out like that how things happen. It's a
Speaker 2: little bit a little bit dated now. I think it
Speaker 2: was published in like twenty sixteen, so you know, things
Speaker 2: have changed a few years. But I think that's a
Speaker 2: decent book for people who are interested as well, that
Speaker 2: I know a lot of people have recommended. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: then I wonder, like, because this isn't being like I know,
Speaker 2: you made the point earlier about that the world was
Speaker 2: looking at Palestine when the taxi Palestine happened. I was
Speaker 2: in Camischlow in Roosevelt, and like, it's impossible for me
Speaker 2: to sell stories. It's impossible for me to sell anything
Speaker 2: to like big news outlets so that they simply like,
Speaker 2: don't think American people can care about two parts to
Speaker 2: the world at once. I guess I wonder where people
Speaker 2: can follow and get updates, Like it's a good social
Speaker 2: media or news outlets that you woulduggest for people who
Speaker 2: do want to keep in touch with what's happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we have like a Facebook place as
Speaker 3: Wipe Day information on Documentation Office like YPJ information. But
Speaker 3: also there's like other places like the Information Center, which
Speaker 3: is very much like like independently accriminating like knowledge and
Speaker 3: sharing in a way that I think is understandable for everyone.
Speaker 3: Like there's also from the SDI forces a press center
Speaker 3: which just has like also an English homepage is sharing
Speaker 3: like sometimes statements and concrete information. There's an Internationalist Commune
Speaker 3: of sharing an English language, a lot of information on
Speaker 3: Twitter and on the homepage. So there's actually a lot
Speaker 3: of sources if you go and look forward, that are
Speaker 3: very good. I think.
Speaker 2: Also yes, and like underground people who can show you
Speaker 2: what's happening, And yeah, I think I think that's wonderful
Speaker 2: that anything else you'd like us to get to before
Speaker 2: we finish up, anything else you want people to know.
Speaker 3: No, I think it's very important to say again that
Speaker 3: it's like very very valuable for the revolutional for people
Speaker 3: to take part in actions to makes a voice, hard
Speaker 3: to organize, to make the solution known, to get it
Speaker 3: to know for themselves, and that it does actually make
Speaker 3: a very very huge difference like the struggle that people
Speaker 3: everyone in the world are making for the solution and
Speaker 3: that it needs it. That like it's very like critical
Speaker 3: for those of a revolution that everyone's world it gets
Speaker 3: known and gets like solidarity that received this are very meaningful.
Speaker 3: I think that's very important to understand. Besides this, I
Speaker 3: don't know, I hope, yes, that's I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really good to realize that it's
Speaker 2: it's not a it's you know, it's a very worthwhile
Speaker 2: thing to do just to increase people's awareness and solidarity.
Speaker 2: And thank you so much your time. I know Internet
Speaker 2: it's not the easiest thing to come by where you are,
Speaker 2: so thank you so much better Van for taking the
Speaker 2: time to talk to us today.
Speaker 3: Thank you also for talking about the topic. I was
Speaker 3: very happy to join.
Speaker 2: Its great Thanks so much.
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