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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg Law

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Speaker 1: with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Everything was done with the knowledge and at the direction

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Speaker 2: of mister Trump.

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Speaker 3: Michael Cohen is telling jurors at Donald Trump's trial the

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Speaker 3: same thing he told Congress back in twenty nineteen, that

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Speaker 3: everything he did in the hush money scheme to pay

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Speaker 3: off adult film actress Stormy Daniels was done at Trump's

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Speaker 3: direction to help the former president influence the twenty sixteen election.

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Speaker 3: Cohen is the prosecution star witness, the only witness to

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Speaker 3: testify about what Trump allegedly said about the one hundred

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Speaker 3: and thirty thousand dollars payment at the center of the

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Speaker 3: case against Trump for falsifying business records. But on cross

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Speaker 3: examination on Thursday, Trump's lawyer grilled Cohen for hours about

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Speaker 3: his well documented history of lying under oath and about

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Speaker 3: possible inconsistencies in his trial testimony, questioning whether he really

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Speaker 3: got approval from Trump for the hush money payment. Joining

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Speaker 3: me is former federal prosecutor Jeff Psi.

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Speaker 2: Jeff.

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Speaker 3: It may not have been an elegant cross examination, but

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Speaker 3: the defense attorney Todd Blanche made some inroads in undercutting

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Speaker 3: Cohen's credibility and even some of the testimony he just

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Speaker 3: gave it the trial on direct examination.

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Speaker 4: Every trial, whether it's as a high profile as this

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Speaker 4: one or an average case that occurs in courtrooms across

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Speaker 4: this country, are always won or lost at cross examination.

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Speaker 4: And the reason is because cross examination is the ultimate

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Speaker 4: test of credibility. It's the issue that is swirling around

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Speaker 4: this trial. It swirls around every trial, and you see

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Speaker 4: it magnified more because so much of the case resides

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Speaker 4: in the testimony of Michael Cohen. What you saw earlier

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Speaker 4: in the trial was an effort by the prosecution to

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Speaker 4: bolster what ultimately would be a lot of the problems

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Speaker 4: that are associated with Michael Cohen by virtue of some

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Speaker 4: of the lies that were told, things that are true

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Speaker 4: versus untrue, et cetera. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: the case is still going to come down to whether

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Speaker 4: or not, on a very fundamental level, the jury trusts

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Speaker 4: that what Michael Cohen is saying as the very nucleus

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Speaker 4: of his testimony, that the former president knew what was

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Speaker 4: going on and that he directed this to happen, which

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Speaker 4: is to say the payments for purposes of assisting his

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Speaker 4: own campaign for president. That's what this is going to

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Speaker 4: come down to. And so often in cross examinations, just

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Speaker 4: like this one, they can take several days. Sometimes they

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Speaker 4: have lots of valleys, and then on occasion they've got

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Speaker 4: some of these peaks, and the question is for the jury,

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Speaker 4: what are they going to remember the most, the peaks

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Speaker 4: or the valleys.

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Speaker 3: The first day on cross, the defense and he tried

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Speaker 3: to bring out Michael Cohen's bias against Trump, which is

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Speaker 3: pretty obvious considering his books and podcasts and merchandising. But

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Speaker 3: in the second day on cross Thursday, Blanche got more

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Speaker 3: aggressive and he reminded jurors that Cohen had lied to

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Speaker 3: Congress in sworn testimony, and he lied to a federal

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Speaker 3: judge under oath when he pleaded guilty to tax crimes,

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Speaker 3: and on cross he conceded that he had perjured himself

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Speaker 3: because the outcome affected him personally. Do you think that

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Speaker 3: resonates with the jury.

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Speaker 4: I think issues of credibility always hit the jury, and

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Speaker 4: in this case, I think what you're seeing in the

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Speaker 4: cross examination is an effort to undermine his credibility by

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Speaker 4: demonstrating that Michael Cohen is motivated by something at this

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Speaker 4: moment other than the truth. It is, generally speaking, for

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Speaker 4: the prosecution, a rather black and white issue jury. You

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Speaker 4: don't have to like this person, you don't have to

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Speaker 4: want to go out for a beer with this person,

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Speaker 4: but at the end of the day, he or she

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Speaker 4: is telling you the truth. That is an important prosecution argument, right.

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Speaker 4: It's a very black and white good versus evil mana

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Speaker 4: chean kind of duel that the prosecution sets up. But

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Speaker 4: it's a lot more nuanced for the defense and what

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Speaker 4: they need to establish, and especially in a person like

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Speaker 4: Michael Cohen, is that there is a motivation underlying what

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Speaker 4: he is doing that goes beyond just the issue of

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Speaker 4: that is a truthful statement versus that as a false statement.

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Speaker 4: What they want to establish. And I think what you've

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Speaker 4: been seeing through the cross examination, whether it's talking about

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Speaker 4: his various plea agreements, statements he's made to the press,

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Speaker 4: statements he's made on his podcast, statements he made to Congress,

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Speaker 4: is that he has his own Michael Cohen focused interest

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Speaker 4: at play, and in this instance, what is especially motivating

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Speaker 4: him is a desire, as the book says, to get prevented,

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Speaker 4: and that, to me is where you're really seeing a

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Speaker 4: lot of the effort by the defense ends to establish

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Speaker 4: those points through cross examination. And then I think what

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Speaker 4: you're also saying, and some of the specific testimony they've

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Speaker 4: been eliciting, is that when Michael Cohen says in direct

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Speaker 4: examination that X event happened and it's corroborated by this

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Speaker 4: particular email, that particular document, what you've seen is that

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Speaker 4: the defense wants to take that head on. And then

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Speaker 4: you saw through some of the text messages that were

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Speaker 4: presented to him, questioning whether or not in fact some

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Speaker 4: of those records in fact corroborate what he's saying. And

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Speaker 4: it's the undermining of some of that corroboration which is

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Speaker 4: where the defense is looking to find a toe hold

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Speaker 4: to be able to really destroy his credibility.

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Speaker 3: Cohen has admitted lying over and over and over again

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Speaker 3: on both direct and cross There are so many instances

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Speaker 3: of his lying and admittedly lying. Do you think the

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Speaker 3: prosecution is enough corroboration in the documents, the texts, etc.

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Speaker 3: For a jury to believe, you know, a convicted liar.

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Speaker 4: Most prosecutions when they involve corroboration by what the prosecution

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Speaker 4: would call other bad guys is they go to a

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Speaker 4: jury and they say, jury, we don't pick who are

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Speaker 4: people are that are involved in these cases? They pick themselves.

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Speaker 4: And what better way to know how a crime is

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Speaker 4: committed by going to a bad guy. That's the general

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Speaker 4: conceit of how a lot of prosecutions are built. In

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Speaker 4: other words, the people who commit crimes, or people who

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Speaker 4: in this case tell lies, whether it's before Congress or otherwise,

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Speaker 4: are not themselves in those instances angels. And I think

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Speaker 4: that that is that kind of bolstering that the prosecution

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Speaker 4: needs to do in order to avoid the problem of

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Speaker 4: presenting to the jury this concept that you have to

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Speaker 4: believe that Michael Cohen is perfect in order to find

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Speaker 4: him credible. Instead, in this instance, they want a more

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Speaker 4: nuanced approach with Michael Cohen for the jury to be

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Speaker 4: able to say and a somewhat piece me away. I

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Speaker 4: can accept that Michael Cohen lied about this, that and

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Speaker 4: the other, but I believe that he told the truth

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Speaker 4: in the courtroom today or yesterday about this other issue.

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Speaker 4: And that's a very difficult needle for prosecutors to thread,

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Speaker 4: but it's one they have to because at the end

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Speaker 4: of the day, this case was always going to be

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Speaker 4: and so far it has proved to be a case

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Speaker 4: about circumstantial evidence. There are pieces of direct evidence that

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Speaker 4: they have in the form of a conversation that the

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Speaker 4: former president was in, but by and large, the jury's

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Speaker 4: going to have to believe these various pieces of corroborative

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Speaker 4: evidence that in fact, the former president knew what was

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Speaker 4: going on, he directed the conduct as it relates to

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Speaker 4: Stormy Daniels, and that he knew that this was for

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Speaker 4: the underlying purpose of his campaign, and that the documents,

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Speaker 4: Let's not forget the documents, these business records in fact,

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Speaker 4: were doctored precisely because of that purpose. And I think

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Speaker 4: that not forgetting about the fact that this is about

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Speaker 4: those documents is a very important piece of ultimately what

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Speaker 4: the prosecutors are going to be able to do if

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Speaker 4: they're able to get a conviction in this case.

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Speaker 3: Does it surprise you that the prosecution is ending their

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Speaker 3: case with Michael Cohen such a flawed witness.

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Speaker 4: No, you know, A very important rule for prosecutors is

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Speaker 4: that you want to make sure that you have at

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Speaker 4: the beginning and at the end of your cases presented

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Speaker 4: powerful evidence to a journey. That powerful evidence can look

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Speaker 4: different ways, and it can be in the form of testimony.

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Speaker 4: It can often look like documents or b documents, but

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Speaker 4: it's powerful at the beginning, and it's got to be

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Speaker 4: powerful at the end. In the event that the prosecutors

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Speaker 4: believe that they're are things that need repair that go

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Speaker 4: beyond just redirect examination, which they'll have the opportunity to

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Speaker 4: do next week, they should be in a position to

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Speaker 4: be able to have a failsafe to build something else,

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Speaker 4: end to end on it appears, at least from what

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Speaker 4: they've told the judge, they've got enough confidence that they

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Speaker 4: don't potentially even need other witnesses beyond mister Crolan will

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Speaker 4: see if that potentially changes. But it is a pretty

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Speaker 4: regular practice for prosecutors to have a few different side

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Speaker 4: options available to them, because if you know trial work,

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Speaker 4: then you know things never quite go the way you

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Speaker 4: otherwise expect them, and so being prepared is always kind

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Speaker 4: of an important rule of THEMB.

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Speaker 3: So the prosecution has tried to show the jury the

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Speaker 3: hush money payments connected to the business records, I mean,

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Speaker 3: have they shown them why it's a felony?

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Speaker 4: It's circumstantial. It's circumstantial. But the prosecutors knew that the

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Speaker 4: case was always going to be largely about circumstantial evidence,

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Speaker 4: and it importantly was never going to be about sex

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Speaker 4: and salacious details of what happened in Lake Tahoe and

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Speaker 4: things of the sort. Were the case to turn into

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Speaker 4: only that, the prosecutors would have a problem. And the

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Speaker 4: reason is because a case built only on salatious details

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Speaker 4: of the fluff of a case is the kind of

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Speaker 4: thing that when a jury goes back to the jury,

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Speaker 4: and jurors always take their duties pretty responsibly and seriously

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Speaker 4: that when they're examining the evidence as compared to the

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Speaker 4: instructions that the judge will give, a case built only

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Speaker 4: on kind of salacious details will often lead a jury

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Speaker 4: to question, well, wait a second, this all sounds very bad,

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Speaker 4: but is there a crime committed? So I think what

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Speaker 4: you're going to find in the closing arguments, in particular,

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Speaker 4: is an effort by the prosecutors to do a rather

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Speaker 4: methodical approach to tying together those circumstantial pieces to the

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Speaker 4: underlying business records that we're talking about, because in the

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Speaker 4: absence of very tightly tying that circumstantial evidence together and

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Speaker 4: a focus instead on some of the salacious details of

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Speaker 4: the case will really undermine the prosecutor's ability to get

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Speaker 4: a conviction. So kind of watch this space, because I

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Speaker 4: think you'll find that the prosecutors are really going to

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Speaker 4: try to take a very workman methodical approach to their

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Speaker 4: closing to ensure that the jury has fundamentally at its

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Speaker 4: fingertips the specific building blocks of evidence they need to

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Speaker 4: be able to check the box of guilty on the

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Speaker 4: verdict form.

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Speaker 3: The defense has said that no decision has been made

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Speaker 3: on whether Trump is going to testify or not. Do

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Speaker 3: you think that's believable that no decision has been made.

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Speaker 4: Who can predict, of course, with precision, what a client

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Speaker 4: will do, especially a client like the former president. But

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Speaker 4: I strongly suspect that the defense lawyers at Leaves have

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Speaker 4: a very strong idea of what they're going to do

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Speaker 4: or not do. What you, of course tell the judge

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Speaker 4: and the other side are different if no firm final

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Speaker 4: decision has been made. But it also kind of falls

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Speaker 4: under that general category that the defense lawyers have an

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Speaker 4: important job to do, which is to keep the prosecutors

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Speaker 4: on their toes and so they're going to make that

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Speaker 4: final final decision at the last moment, and so up

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Speaker 4: to that point, there is certainly an element of unknown

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Speaker 4: I think even to the defense lawyers as to what

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Speaker 4: they're going to do. But I suspect they've got an idea.

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Speaker 3: And we could find out what they're going to do

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Speaker 3: as soon as Monday when trial resumes. Thanks Jeff. That's

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Speaker 3: former federal prosecutor Jeff's side coming up next our Kago's founder,

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Speaker 3: Bill Wong, on trial for market manipulation. I'm June Grosso

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Speaker 3: and this is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 2: You know, our father God is the king of everything,

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Speaker 2: not just Wall Street or church, and sometimes non Christians

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Speaker 2: walk in and they know that, you know, we worship God,

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Speaker 2: and so they are attracted to it. So that's why

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Speaker 2: we are trying to really help people read the scripture.

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Speaker 3: As Bill Wong was amassing a fortune of thirty six

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Speaker 3: billion dollars in near total secrecy through his family office,

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Speaker 3: he led an unassuming suburban life in New Jersey, a

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Speaker 3: devout Christian, promoting regular Bible readings and founding a philanthropic organization.

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Speaker 3: But it was a very public collapse when that family

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Speaker 3: office Our Kago's Capital Management suddenly melted down in March

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one, all but erasing Huang's fortune and

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Speaker 3: costing the firm's lenders ten billion dollars. About a year later,

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Speaker 3: Huang was indicted on charges of fraud and racketeering conspiracy.

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Speaker 3: Manhattan US attorney Damian Williams said that Wang and his

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Speaker 3: co conspirators had lied to banks to obtain billions of

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Speaker 3: dollars that they then used to inflate the stock price

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Speaker 3: of a number of publicly traded companies.

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Speaker 1: The lies fed the inflation, and the inflation fed more lies.

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Speaker 1: Round and round it went. But last year the music stopped,

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Speaker 1: the bubble burst, the prices dropped, and when they did,

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Speaker 1: billions of dollars nearly evaporated overnight.

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Speaker 3: The trial of Wong and his co defendant, former Archago

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Speaker 3: CFO Patrick Halligan, began this week in the Federal Courthouse

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Speaker 3: in Lower Manhattan, across the street from where Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: is being tried. Joining me is securities law expert James Park,

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Speaker 3: a professor at UCLA Law School. Jim, will you explain

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Speaker 3: what the prosecutors are accusing Wong and halliganov?

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Speaker 5: Well, there are a couple of major allegations. The first

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Speaker 5: of this is a market manipulation case. They're accusing U

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Speaker 5: and our Chagos of purchasing stock in order to inflate

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Speaker 5: the price beyond natural market forces, and that violates federal

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Speaker 5: securities law. Secondly, they're alleging that he and his subordinates

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Speaker 5: lied to banks in order to get the funds to

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Speaker 5: speculate in the stocks. And so the first allegation I

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Speaker 5: think is probably the more difficult one for the prosecution.

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Speaker 5: It's a little bit unclear as to how we define

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Speaker 5: market manipulation. There have not been very many prosecutions of

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Speaker 5: manipulation involving what we call open market purchases of stock,

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Speaker 5: where you're just buying securities in the marketplace. The second

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Speaker 5: set of allegations, though, I think, is more straightforward, more established,

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Speaker 5: and it could be just a simple federal wire fraud.

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Speaker 5: So there are really two sets of allegations here.

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Speaker 3: Wang's lawyers have described the prosecution as the most aggressive

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Speaker 3: open market manipulation case ever. Do you agree with that?

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Speaker 5: It certainly is the biggest that I have heard of.

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Speaker 5: And you know, any open market manipulation case is somewhat

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Speaker 5: novel because they are not brought very frequently mean the

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Speaker 5: laws unclear, and I think that there, you know, is

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Speaker 5: certainly going to be sort of a challenge, I think

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Speaker 5: in terms of whether or not the fact will support

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Speaker 5: a violation of market manipulation. And I think that you know,

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Speaker 5: this set effects that was unprecedented, and I think that

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Speaker 5: is part of the novelty of the case is that

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Speaker 5: at one point in time he had you know, a

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Speaker 5: position of one hundred and sixty billion dollars in a

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Speaker 5: number of these publicly traded securities. So it is certainly

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Speaker 5: the largest market manipulation case involving open market purchases of

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Speaker 5: stocks that I am aware of, and that makes it

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Speaker 5: somewhat unique as to whether or not it is something

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Speaker 5: that is an abuse of federal authority. I think there

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Speaker 5: has been at least one decision in the sec civil

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Speaker 5: case that did find there were sufficient allegations to support

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Speaker 5: a manipulation claim. So certainly there is some support for

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Speaker 5: the federal prosecutor's position.

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Speaker 3: I've read that looking back, his strategy seems like market suicide.

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Speaker 3: In the opening statements, the prosecution said that Wang wanted more,

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Speaker 3: more money, more success, more power, that he wanted to

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Speaker 3: be a Wall Street legend, but the judges said he

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Speaker 3: was bewildered by Wang's strategy of simply buying more and

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Speaker 3: more shares. At a hearing, judge Hellerstein said, what did

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Speaker 3: he want? What did he want to achieve being a

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Speaker 3: big shot. I suppose that's possible, but it doesn't seem

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Speaker 3: to me that was his aim.

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Speaker 5: The prosecutor said he wanted to be a Wall Street legend.

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Speaker 5: That certainly is a possibility. Another explanation is that he

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Speaker 5: basically dug a hole for himself. He got too aggressive,

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Speaker 5: He established a really large position that left him vulnerable

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Speaker 5: if the market changed, and so he did everything he

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Speaker 5: could in order to get himself out of significant losses.

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Speaker 5: And so it may be partly that he wanted to

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Speaker 5: be this legend. He was not content being a billionaire.

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Speaker 5: That was fairly obscure. But you know, the other motivation

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Speaker 5: I think might have been just desperation and that he

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Speaker 5: was in trouble and he wanted to do everything he

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Speaker 5: could in order to make sure that he didn't lose

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Speaker 5: a lot of money on these various trades, and you know,

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Speaker 5: it would have been humiliating, and it was humiliating when

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Speaker 5: he lost billions of dollars in money that was borrowed

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Speaker 5: and his own money in these trades. So I think

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Speaker 5: there are a number of ways you could look at

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Speaker 5: what his motivation might have been. Now in terms of

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Speaker 5: whether or not this is completely irrational, I think that

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Speaker 5: that'll be a critical part of the prosecution's case, you know.

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Speaker 5: I think one of the things they may do is

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Speaker 5: they may say, well, here were the things that he

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Speaker 5: was planning to do to earn a profit on this

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Speaker 5: position that there's a way he could have gotten out

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Speaker 5: of it with some profits. And I expect that very

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Speaker 5: cooperating witnesses will give us a little bit more insight

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Speaker 5: into what the strategy was. So there was a motivation

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Speaker 5: asserted by the prosecution. In addition, I think we're going

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Speaker 5: to learn more facts at trial as to what the

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Speaker 5: motivation might have been.

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Speaker 3: The defense has said that the banks were sophisticated lenders

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Speaker 3: who were doing their own research. We've heard that argument before.

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Speaker 5: They are sophisticated lenders, but you can commit fraud against

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Speaker 5: sophisticated lenders. And we're going to probably hear some testimony

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Speaker 5: from these banks as to, you know, what they expected

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Speaker 5: and what type of information they were looking for. And

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Speaker 5: how the lies affected what they would have done. Would

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Speaker 5: they have, you know, pulled the loan. Did he prevent

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Speaker 5: them from really responding and preventing what actually happened. I

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Speaker 5: think we're going to get some testimony from these fairly

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Speaker 5: sophisticated lenders. But I think he has a point right

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Speaker 5: so that you know, these are banks that should have

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Speaker 5: done more due diligence. They should have taken care of themselves,

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Speaker 5: and they were quite capable of doing so. But what

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Speaker 5: the banks will say is that we didn't expect we

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Speaker 5: be lied to.

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Speaker 3: The biggest challenge for the defense at trial will be

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Speaker 3: the two cooperating witnesses. In the opening statement, the defense

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Speaker 3: attorney called the former head of risk management, Scott Becker,

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Speaker 3: manipulative and a very very convincing liar. So it seems

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Speaker 3: like the defense is going to attack the star witnesses

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Speaker 3: in part by saying they're alling to get their plea deal,

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Speaker 3: a familiar attack on cooperating witnesses.

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Speaker 5: The standard defense in these types of cases. If you

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Speaker 5: have a cooperating witness who is testifying against you, that's

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Speaker 5: the job of the defense attorney to undermine their credibilities.

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Speaker 5: Then this is the sort of argument that is made

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Speaker 5: every single day in federal courts throughout America. More recently,

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Speaker 5: this is what the FDx trial also hinged upon Sam Begman.

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Speaker 5: Freed was charged with various counts of wire fraud and

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Speaker 5: securities fraud, and the reason he was convicted was because

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Speaker 5: his top lieutenants testified against him and there were attempts

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Speaker 5: to try to reduce their credibility. So this is what

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Speaker 5: these trials ultimately come down to.

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Speaker 6: Who do you believe?

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Speaker 5: Do you believe the cooperating witnesses or do you believe

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Speaker 5: the defendant? And the other interesting question I think that

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Speaker 5: will come up is will this defendant actually testify in

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Speaker 5: his own defense?

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Speaker 3: And what are some of the reasons why you think

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Speaker 3: he might want to take the stand in his own defense.

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Speaker 5: I think that after the cooperating witnesses testify that there

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Speaker 5: will be a lot of explaining to this right if

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Speaker 5: he really wants to come and defend himself. I think

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Speaker 5: that it all comes down to his state of mind,

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Speaker 5: and so the only way the jury can really understand

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Speaker 5: his state of mind is if he comes and testifies

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Speaker 5: and basically argues that you know they were wrong, they're lying,

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Speaker 5: And this is the reason why.

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Speaker 7: Now if he.

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Speaker 5: Does testify, though, that puts him at great risk because

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Speaker 5: you know, about a decade ago, in one of his

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Speaker 5: prior pege funds, he had to settle a case that

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Speaker 5: the SEC brought and the Department of Justice brought against

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Speaker 5: him for insider trading. And then also in the SEC case,

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Speaker 5: there were allegations of similar types of market manipulation where

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Speaker 5: he was ordering subordinate to enter into losing trades in

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Speaker 5: order to create the impression that his position was a

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Speaker 5: profitable one, and that would be very bad I think

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Speaker 5: for his defense if the jury learns that he has

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Speaker 5: been charged with similar types of misconduct in the past.

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Speaker 5: And that's why he's running a family office, is because

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Speaker 5: he had to settle with the SEC and the Department

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Speaker 5: of Justice, and that's why he's not able to really

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Speaker 5: manage outside funds by investors.

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Speaker 3: The prosecution's first few witnesses were from Archagos, the co president,

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Speaker 3: the head of research, and an operations staffer. What do

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Speaker 3: you think the prosecution is trying to do at the

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Speaker 3: beginning of the trial he with these witnesses.

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Speaker 8: You know, I think that they're trying to do a

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Speaker 8: few things. I think, first of all, they are establishing

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Speaker 8: at the beginning of the case that there was a lie,

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Speaker 8: and that's the thank the investment bank ubs thought that

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Speaker 8: it was a lie, that they would have done something

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Speaker 8: differently if they had known the truth. So they're trying

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Speaker 8: to establish the harm, the damages from the fraud at

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Speaker 8: the very outset. I think the second thing they're trying

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Speaker 8: to do is with the testimony of one of their employees,

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Speaker 8: to just give the jury a sense of the days

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Speaker 8: of chaos when the firm is in trouble and what's

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Speaker 8: going on in that setting. And that's a nice way

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Speaker 8: of introducing the jury to their set of events, as

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Speaker 8: well as the hedge fund itself.

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Speaker 3: Few of the jurors have financial backgrounds. The judge has

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Speaker 3: said the trial will be financed one oh one for

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Speaker 3: many of them. He said, if you sit through eight

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Speaker 3: weeks of trial, you'll be able to go out and

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Speaker 3: manipulate the market. But is that a downside for the prosecution.

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Speaker 5: It poses a challenge. It poses a challenge to explain

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Speaker 5: things like a total return swap, so there's always a

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Speaker 5: risk the jury will get confused, and so the prosecutors

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Speaker 5: are going to really have to go step by step,

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Speaker 5: and that is going to take some time. There's always

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Speaker 5: the risks that the jury will tune out and not

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Speaker 5: really understand all of the details. On the other hand,

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Speaker 5: I think there are some aspects of the case that

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Speaker 5: should be fairly simple to understand, where you know, I've

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Speaker 5: borrowed money essentially from this bank and they want to

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Speaker 5: know what's going on, and I don't tell them the truth, right.

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Speaker 5: I think that's a very simple set of facts that

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Speaker 5: most ordinary jurors will be able to understand. I think

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Speaker 5: the more challenging part of the case is the market

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Speaker 5: manipulation case and trying to distinguish, you know, what exactly

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Speaker 5: did he do wrong in relation to normal practices on

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Speaker 5: Wall Street, normal practices that an aggressive trader might essentially

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Speaker 5: use in order to to beat the market. And so

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Speaker 5: there are questions about, you know, is it manipulative to

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Speaker 5: phone in a lot of orders at the end of

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Speaker 5: the day when there's not a lot of trading. Is

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Speaker 5: that something that we can say is deceptive and intent

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Speaker 5: or is it simply industry practice? And so I think

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Speaker 5: it'll be difficult for prosecutors to clearly explain, you know,

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Speaker 5: why this sort of trading crosses align into manipulation.

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Speaker 3: That may be why it's expected to be a two

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Speaker 3: month trial. Thanks so much, Jim. That's Professor James Park

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Speaker 3: of UCLA Law School. Coming up. Republican LED state sue

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Speaker 3: over Title nine changes. I'm June Grosso and you're listening

439
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 3: to Bloomberg. The Biden administration has expanded the protections under

440
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 3: Title nine to LGBTQ students. Title nine forbids discrimination based

441
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 3: on sex and education, and it will now protect students

442
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 3: from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.

443
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 3: But Republican LED states are piling on to challenge the

444
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 3: new rules.

445
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 7: Florida rejects Joe Biden's attempt to rewrite Title nine. We

446
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 7: will not comply and we will fight back. We are

447
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 7: not going to let Joe Biden try to inject men

448
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 7: into women's activities.

449
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: At least twenty two Republican LED states are suing over

450
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 3: what they say is an illegal rewriting of the landmark

451
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two law. Joining me is Paul Smith, a

452
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: professor at Georgetown Law. He's an expert in civil rights

453
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 3: and civil liberties issues. He argued in won the landmark

454
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 3: gay rights case Lawrence versus Texas at the Supreme Court.

455
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 3: Pleasure to have you, Paul. Will you start by telling

456
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: us about the Biden administration's expansion of Title nine.

457
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 6: Well, the action that was taken just recently to finalize

458
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 6: new regulations to add additional rights under Title nine to

459
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 6: LGBTQ students. In many ways, they read duration of the

460
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 6: rules that were in place under Obama and had been

461
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 6: cut back during the Trump administration. The Biden administration is

462
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 6: going even further, clarifying several things. The first thing is

463
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 6: clarifying is that discrimination against people based on sexual orientation

464
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 6: and or transgender status is a form of sex discrimination,

465
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 6: violating Title line. Title line is a statute for bid

466
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 6: sex discrimination in educational institutions, funded by the federal government.

467
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 6: The second thing it does is it gives very specific

468
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 6: examples of what constitutes discrimination against people based on sexual

469
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 6: orientation or transgender status gender identity. So, for example, it

470
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 6: is to be clear that schools have to allow transgender

471
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 6: students to use the bathroom and changing facility consistent with

472
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 6: their gender identity. They can't refuse to use their preferred

473
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 6: pronouns and that sort of thing, And you know, discrimination

474
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 6: against same sex couples in terms of going to the

475
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 6: prom or whatever clearly illegal, and failure to protect students

476
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 6: from harassment and bullying based on the fact that they're

477
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 6: gay or lesbian or transgender, he's a violation as well.

478
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 6: So that's all been clarified and set forth in terms

479
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 6: that are easy to understand and are specific enough so

480
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 6: that a lot of the fights we used to have

481
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 6: about what is discrimination and what isn't a will no

482
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 6: longer be happening now.

483
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: Is this because in the last few years a lot

484
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 3: of Republican controlled states have adopted laws restricting the rights

485
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 3: of transgender children. At least ten states bar trans students

486
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: and staffers from using bathrooms that correspond with their gender identities,

487
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 3: and then there are restrictions on how LGBTQ issues are

488
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: taught at school. Are these Biden administration updates designed specifically

489
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: to counter those laws, or are they standing on their own.

490
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 6: They're part of a much broader and longer term effort

491
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 6: to establish a federal protection for gay and trans people

492
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 6: against discrimination, in this case, in the school environment. But

493
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 6: we've already seen a successful effort to establish it. It's

494
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 6: illegal under federal law. Discriminated employment I was a Supreme

495
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 6: Court case decided four years ago that interpreted not Title

496
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 6: nine but Title seven, which covers employment discrimination against people

497
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 6: based on transgender status or sexual orientation in the workplace

498
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 6: is sex discrimination and therefore illegal. And so, you know,

499
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,479
Speaker 6: this fight's been going on a long time. I had

500
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 6: a case nearly ten years ago in North Carolina about

501
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 6: their bathroom bill that was trying to keep transgender students

502
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 6: out of the bathroom of gender identity, and we were

503
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 6: arguing about Title nine and the Fourteenth Amendment. And so

504
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 6: you know, while literally this I think has been perceived

505
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 6: by the Red state attorneys general as a kind of

506
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 6: a pushback against some of their laws, that it does

507
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 6: have some of that effect. It is part of a

508
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 6: broader battle to establish basic protections for or transgender and

509
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 6: lesbian engained bisexual students in federally funded educational institutions, and

510
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 6: that in turn is part of a broader effort to

511
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 6: establish protection in all kinds of places for people who

512
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 6: are experiencing discrimination.

513
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: I believe there are four lawsuits by attorneys general in

514
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: more than twenty Republican control states or Republican attorneys general.

515
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 3: Are those lawsuits on the same grounds.

516
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 6: It's pretty easy to figure out what they're arguing. Basically,

517
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 6: they're going to go into court and say these regulations

518
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 6: requiring people to have access to the appropriate bathroom and

519
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 6: changing area or in pronouns or whatever are not properly

520
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 6: based in the Statute, that the Statute doesn't provide a

521
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 6: legal basis for protecting people from transgender discrimination and sexual

522
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 6: orientation discrimination. It's about sex discrimination in the more conventional sense,

523
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 6: and so it's a basic administrative agency challenge to the

524
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 6: regulations that is going beyond the Statute. I don't know

525
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 6: where they these things, but I assume they found courts

526
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 6: with nice conservative district court judges who may very well

527
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 6: agree with them, at least initially.

528
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 3: Yes, they did. They found one of them's into Texas.

529
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 6: Well, it's almost always the one of Amarillo.

530
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 3: Texas, from Texas to the Fifth Circuit to the Supreme Court. Perhaps.

531
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 3: I mean, you refer to the Bostock case and that

532
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: was close. That was five to four, right, right, So

533
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: do you think that if this goes up to the

534
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 3: Supreme Court that they'll affirm their changes or do you

535
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 3: think that they'll go along with the Republican Attorney's General

536
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 3: or too soon to tell.

537
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 6: It's probably too soon to tell, and it's probably not

538
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 6: a yes or no answer, because a lot of what

539
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 6: may happen in these cases may be sort of careful

540
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 6: parsing of what some of these rules do. One of

541
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 6: the things we've seen in this Title nine area is

542
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 6: people wielding Title nine on both sides. And so if

543
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 6: you're against having transgender girls go into the girls room

544
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 6: in the junior high school, one of the things I

545
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 6: argue is that it's discriminatory against the right to the

546
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 6: other girls. And that's an argument that's been made when

547
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 6: they might be true about locker rooms or whatever. And

548
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 6: certainly in the area not covered by these rights, the

549
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 6: area of transgender athletics, that's another area where Title nine

550
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 6: gets wielded on both sides of the v And so

551
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 6: one of the things that might happen in a pretty

552
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 6: conservative Supreme courters they might say, well, we don't dispute

553
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 6: the idea that discrimination based the sexual orientation or transgender

554
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 6: status can't violate Title nine. But what is discrimination? You know,

555
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 6: if the school says we're going to decide who goes

556
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 6: to which bathroom based on physical characteristics or gender assigned

557
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 6: at birth or whatever, and they do that is, is

558
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 6: that discrimination against somebody that those are issues that have

559
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 6: been fought out over and over again, and reasonable minds

560
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 6: kind of disagree about them.

561
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 3: You mentioned transgender athletes, and the new rules don't address

562
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 3: transgender athletes, and I've read.

563
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 6: That yet anyway, well, I've read that.

564
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 3: They might be avoiding that because of the election action

565
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 3: coming up, and how that's such a hot button issue,

566
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 3: even more so than transgender rights as far as bathrooms,

567
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 3: et cetera.

568
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's by far the biggest one. I think they

569
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 6: got one hundred and fifty thousand comments about the proposed

570
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 6: regulation that was put out two years ago as part

571
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 6: of this package to establish the principal the transgender athletes

572
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 6: need access to the teams just like everyone else on

573
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 6: an equal basis. And you know, with the pure speculation

574
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 6: on my part, whether they just found this issue harder

575
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 6: and therefore they're taking a longer time to finalize, or

576
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 6: whether they've decided this might be better promulgated in December

577
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 6: twenty twenty four rather than before the election. It's hard

578
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 6: to say so.

579
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 3: Now in some Republican led states, governors and education secretaries

580
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: are discouraging state officials from complying with the new federal regulation.

581
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 3: So let's go to Texas, which is always on the

582
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 3: outer rim. The Governor, Greg Abbott sent a letter to

583
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 3: chexas as public university systems in community colleges instructing them

584
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 3: to disregard the new provisions. Texas will not comply with

585
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 3: President Joe Biden's rewrite of Title nine. I mean, what

586
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 3: effect does it have on funding for the schools if

587
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: the schools don't comply, well, in.

588
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 6: The theory, that could lead to a cutoff of funding,

589
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 6: although it's a rare situation which schools actually lose their funding.

590
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 6: But what will really happen here is while the governor

591
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 6: has made this dramatic statement of disobedience, effectively is that

592
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 6: they'll be in court within a few days and somebody

593
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 6: will decide whether these new regulations will be put on

594
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 6: ice pending the further litigation of the case or not.

595
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 6: And if they are, they won't have to comply with

596
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 6: them a preliminary ruling that stays their effect. If they're not,

597
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 6: and the judges say we think the regulations can take effect,

598
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 6: now you know why you litigate up through the courts.

599
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 6: That becomes a more serious manner. But I wouldn't be

600
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 6: at all surprised, given who got to the sign where

601
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 6: these cases were filed, that they'll find judges who will say,

602
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 6: let's just enter a preliminary order stopping these rigs from

603
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 6: being in effect as we go up through the court.

604
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,959
Speaker 3: These new rules also changed the rules that the Trump

605
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: administration put into place for conducting investigations of sexual assault

606
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: on campuses. Under the Trump administration, the accused had a

607
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: right to cross examine the accuser at open hearings.

608
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 6: Very clear that there was a perception that the pre

609
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 6: Trump rules under the Obama administration were too favorable to

610
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 6: the accuser that Betsy Devas tried to come up with

611
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 6: a new system that gave greater rights and protections to

612
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 6: the accused in these cases involving primarily student non student

613
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 6: sexual violence, date violence, that kind of thing. And this

614
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 6: does seem to be designed to restore what is viewed

615
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 6: by the Biden people as a more fair balance of

616
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 6: rights on both sides of the controversy in those difficult cases.

617
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 3: You know, it's obvious that as administrations change, these rules

618
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 3: change back and forth. That doesn't seem like a smart

619
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 3: way to be establishing rules for schools and having them

620
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 3: change every four years or so.

621
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 6: It does show you how political a lot of this

622
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 6: stuff is, and you know, until this gets settled, you're

623
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 6: going to see some of this. But what I think

624
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 6: what usually happens in this kind of situation is that

625
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 6: after a period of it for tat back and forth,

626
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 6: eventually things kind of calm down and people get used

627
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 6: to a rule and it stays in place.

628
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 3: So you've been litigating in this area of LGBTQ rights,

629
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 3: are you surprised that seems as if in some respects

630
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 3: we're going backwards.

631
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 6: There clearly is a political effort to push back on

632
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 6: some of the progress that the LGBTQ movement for equality

633
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 6: seem to be making, looking for vulnerabilities, and the main

634
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 6: vulnerability that they have found the forces opposed to equality

635
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 6: is transgender students. It's a newer group that has less

636
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 6: sort of comfort level and among the general population, and

637
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 6: so they have looked for ways to kind of turn

638
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 6: them non transgender students into victims serving privacy in the

639
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 6: bathroom or in the locker room, Claiming that teachers have

640
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 6: a religious right not to accept a new pronoun or

641
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 6: a new name that kind of thing. And so while

642
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,919
Speaker 6: you know, certainly there's still plenty of discrimination against same

643
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 6: sex couples and gay lesbian people in the school systems,

644
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 6: transgender students are a particular focus on a real hot

645
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 6: button issue right now. Transgender people, non binary people, they

646
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 6: have very high levels of difficulty except themselves. The suicide

647
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 6: rate is very high, and instead of just trying to

648
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 6: make it easy as possible for them to get through

649
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 6: their childhoods and get up wherever they're going to end

650
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 6: up in life, people are actually making it harder on purpose.

651
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 6: It's really it is sad.

652
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 3: It's been wonderful having you on, Paul. I really appreciate

653
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: your insights. That's Paul Smith, a professor at Georgetown Laws

654
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember

655
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 3: you can always get the latest legal news by listening

656
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: to our Bloomberg Law podcasts. You can find them on

657
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at Bloomberg dot Com, Slash podcast

658
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 3: Slash Law. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg