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Speaker 1: To listen all at once. Add free subscribe to True

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Speaker 1: Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts. I'm Steve Fishman from Orbit Media,

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Speaker 1: creator of hit true crime podcasts like My Friend, The

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Speaker 1: Serial Killer, Empire on Blood and the Burden. Today, I'm

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Speaker 1: introducing a new show. It's called Lives of Crime, True

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Speaker 1: crime from true criminals. In Lives of Crime, we bring you,

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Speaker 1: in their own words, accounts from killers, swindlers, teenage ponzi schemers,

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Speaker 1: drug smunklers, con artists, counterfeiters.

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Speaker 2: And more.

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Speaker 1: They've paid their debts to society and are free to talk,

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Speaker 1: and they do. They give us slices of criminal life

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Speaker 1: like you've never heard before. Most of the stories will

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Speaker 1: be told over one episode. Sometimes the stories demand more,

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Speaker 1: and that's true of today's story, so this one will

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Speaker 1: be a two parter. At the center is what might

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Speaker 1: be the most frightening love triangle in history. It involves

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Speaker 1: Larry Massa, a teenage delivery boy at the local supermarket,

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Speaker 1: a beautiful older woman customer, and her husband, a mobster

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Speaker 1: known as the Grim Reaper. Can you guess why we

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Speaker 1: call this episode The Education of an Assassin Part one?

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Speaker 3: One day, while working at the supermarket, getting ready for

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Speaker 3: my deliveries. This gorgeous woman walks in. She's in a

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Speaker 3: fur coat, has all kinds of beautiful jewelry on, made

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Speaker 3: up very well and just stunning. And she comes over

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Speaker 3: to me and opens up a conversation. She tells me

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Speaker 3: her name is Linda. She is a knockout, and she

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Speaker 3: asks me if I would personally deliver the groceries to

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Speaker 3: her house, and I said, of course, it would be

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Speaker 3: my pleasure. On one of the visits to her house,

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Speaker 3: she has a bottle of wine out and it's the

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Speaker 3: middle of the day. I'm working, so I have to

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Speaker 3: turn down the wine, but she brings me some tea,

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Speaker 3: and now the talk gets a little bit more personal.

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Speaker 3: She's asking me how I stay in such good shape.

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Speaker 3: I see you have nice arms and shoulders. She's talking

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Speaker 3: about my abs. Men just comes out and asks me

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Speaker 3: if I fool around, and I never forget that.

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Speaker 2: I felt a little insulted. I said, of course I

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Speaker 2: fool around. You think I'm gay.

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Speaker 3: Of course I fool around. And she asked me if

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Speaker 3: I would come over that night, but I told her.

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Speaker 3: I says, I got school, I have a karate I

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Speaker 3: have to go to the gym, so she says, why

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Speaker 3: don't you come over if you're done.

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Speaker 2: She convinced me to go over. We'd have a good time.

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Speaker 3: I want to get to know you better, so I

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Speaker 3: go home. I asked my dad for the car. I

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Speaker 3: get the car Electra two twenty five, brand new car,

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Speaker 3: and I drive down and I walk up the steps

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Speaker 3: and she's dressed impeccably, just sexy, in a black jumpsuit

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Speaker 3: with a zipe that runs the whole front. It was

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Speaker 3: open just enough. This is like a dream. I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: back to the movie to Graduate. I'm not even eighteen yet,

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Speaker 3: although I lied and told her I was eighteen, and

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Speaker 3: I know she's got to be at least thirty ish.

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Speaker 3: Is this really happening? Before you know it, we were

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Speaker 3: kissing passionately and the clothes were coming off. So Linda

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Speaker 3: and I are now getting pretty hot and heavy. This

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Speaker 3: is going on almost every night. And after a few

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Speaker 3: weeks I start wondering, is she alone? How come we

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Speaker 3: could only meet late at night? And eventually she mentioned

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Speaker 3: that she had kids, so they were very young. They

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Speaker 3: go to bed early, left us every night. But now

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Speaker 3: it was begging the question in my head. There's got

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Speaker 3: to be a husband, but I don't really want to know.

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Speaker 3: I'm having too much fun. We're getting closer. The love

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Speaker 3: word is starting to come up a little bit, and

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Speaker 3: we're feeling it. Ultimately, I need to know. I need

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Speaker 3: to know what's going on. Is there a father? Is

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Speaker 3: there a husband? And I remember the day she confided

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Speaker 3: in me and told me that, yes, I do have

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Speaker 3: a husband.

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Speaker 2: His name is Charles.

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Speaker 3: This now goes on for about six months, but she's

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Speaker 3: starting to talk more about my future. She wants me

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Speaker 3: to be a very successful guy like her husband, and

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Speaker 3: starts talking.

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Speaker 2: More and more about him.

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Speaker 3: She tells me she'd like me to meet him. What

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Speaker 3: what are we gonna say, Charles, this is Larry my boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: I mean, how do I meet your husband?

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Speaker 3: She says, no, it's not like that. He's a busy guy.

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Speaker 3: He's very influential. Starts giving me these little bits of hints.

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Speaker 3: Linda was very convincing. Okay, if you want me to

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Speaker 3: meet him, I'll meet him.

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Speaker 2: But she had a way to do it.

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Speaker 3: They were opening up a new company, a supply company,

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Speaker 3: and she suggested to her husband that Larry would be

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Speaker 3: ideal to be the sales manager. I still can't get

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Speaker 3: it in my head that I'm going to meet this guy.

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Speaker 3: I'm going back and forth with her. I think it's insane.

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Speaker 3: I'm very uneasy about this. It's gonna make me start

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Speaker 3: feeling guilty about our relationship. And she doesn't want to

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Speaker 3: hear it. She's laughing at me. No, you don't know,

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Speaker 3: don't worry. It leads to this night where we finally

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Speaker 3: set it up that I'm going to meet. I'm waiting

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Speaker 3: for this guy Charles to pull up. I'm looking out

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Speaker 3: the window. I needed a drink to calm my nerves

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Speaker 3: a little bit, and I remember it was vodka instead

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Speaker 3: of pointing.

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Speaker 2: So I'm sipping a vodka.

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Speaker 3: And I'm still thinking he's a doctor or some kind

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Speaker 3: of traveling businessman. I see cars go by, and my

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Speaker 3: heart's pounding a little bit. Finally, this big black fleetwood

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Speaker 3: room caddy. The cars were like limousines. He pulls in the.

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Speaker 2: Driveway, expensive hubcaps on. The door opens.

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Speaker 3: He gets out of the car, and he doesn't start

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Speaker 3: walking to the house. He swaggers. He had a walk

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Speaker 3: that almost like a shock if a car blew to horn.

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Speaker 3: He didn't turn his head, his whole body turned I

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Speaker 3: noticed the dark sunglasses at night, the jewelry, the pinky ring.

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Speaker 3: He had a sport jacket on dress slacks. If you

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Speaker 3: looked in a dictionary on the mobster, you'd see that picture.

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Speaker 3: As he walks up step, I opened the door and

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Speaker 3: I say, Hi, I'm Larry. He sticks his hand out

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Speaker 3: and in a deep Barry White type voice, says to me,

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Speaker 3: I'm Greg.

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Speaker 2: I'm stunned.

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Speaker 3: I put my hand out, shake his hand, and he

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Speaker 3: puts a smile on his face.

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Speaker 2: Pleasure to meet you.

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Speaker 3: I follow him into the kitchen. He grabs a bottle

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Speaker 3: of scotch pours two scotches. I says, okay, I'll have

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Speaker 3: a scotch with him. I never had scotch before in

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Speaker 3: my life, and I remember not liking the taste, but

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Speaker 3: I sipped it with him. I knew it was a

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Speaker 3: smart thing to do, so I took a sip of

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Speaker 3: it with him.

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Speaker 2: He says he's gonna go upstairs for a few minutes

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Speaker 2: and change. As soon as he.

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Speaker 3: Walks out of that room and goes upstairs, I tell

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Speaker 3: Linda Greg I thought his name was Charles, and she

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Speaker 3: starts laughing like it's funny, and I says what's going on?

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Speaker 3: She says, Oh, he just uses that name. People just

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Speaker 3: use other names. I don't get it. We now start

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Speaker 3: walking out to the car. Greg takes the lead. She

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Speaker 3: wants me to sit in the front with both of them.

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Speaker 3: I says, no, Limb, I'll sit in the back. Everybody

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Speaker 3: should be comfortable. Make sure he's comfortable.

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Speaker 2: He's driving.

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Speaker 3: He's telling me to sit in the front, but I

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Speaker 3: says no, no, I'm okay, I'll sit in the back.

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Speaker 3: I get in the back and I see him looking

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Speaker 3: at me through the mirrow while he's talking to me,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just still wondering how this is all happening.

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Speaker 3: We'd go a few miles to a restaurant called Sorrento's.

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Speaker 3: When we walked in, everybody in the place. The cook

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Speaker 3: came out of the back who was the owner, Ralph.

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Speaker 3: The waiters came over to him. The bartender, who was

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Speaker 3: Ralph's son, came from behind the bar. Everybody shook his

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Speaker 3: hand or kissed him, which is the first time I

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Speaker 3: saw two men kiss and walk us to.

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Speaker 2: A back table. Greg's table.

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Speaker 3: There was already a bottle of white wine and a

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Speaker 3: bottle of red wine on the table. His favorite two wines,

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Speaker 3: and I could see at that moment this guy was somebody.

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Speaker 2: Greg told them.

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Speaker 3: I found our new sales manager, Larry say Hello. I

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Speaker 3: started right away. I started going to different stores. I

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Speaker 3: had a list given to me. I go to these

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Speaker 3: stores and I tell them who I was from Ulett

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Speaker 3: Supply Company. And every one of these stores allowed me

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Speaker 3: to take care of their fire extinguishers. We have paper products,

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Speaker 3: cleaning products, and they all said yes. I was getting

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Speaker 3: accounts and I was like a star salesman. Greg tells

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Speaker 3: me he'd liked me to come to his office, his

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Speaker 3: headquarters on thirteenth Avenue, where I'm getting all these accounts.

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Speaker 3: Day I government and I see a sign on the

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Speaker 3: front Wimpy Boys Social Club. This is in a Ewlett

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Speaker 3: Supply Company office.

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Speaker 2: I walk in.

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Speaker 3: There's all guys that are dress like Greg. They all

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Speaker 3: have jewelry on and Greg has an office in the back.

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Speaker 3: There's a desk, a couch, a chair in front of

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Speaker 3: his desk, and he sits in a big chair behind

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Speaker 3: the desk that's almost like a throne, and he.

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Speaker 2: Sits there like the king.

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Speaker 3: Tell Greg, yeah, A couple of stores are between seventy

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Speaker 3: first and seventy second, wantn't do business with me, Carmine.

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Speaker 3: He calls Carmine in go see these two stores. The

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Speaker 3: next day they treated me like I was the mayor.

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Speaker 3: This is all fine and good on one front, where

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Speaker 3: my business is growing, But on the other hand, I

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Speaker 3: realize this man there's not someone to be messing around with.

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Speaker 3: And I'm still sleeping with his wife, and it's starting

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Speaker 3: to weigh heavily on me. He's almost becoming a friend

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Speaker 3: to me, helping me out. He's setting me up in business,

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Speaker 3: and here I am when he goes off on business trips,

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Speaker 3: I'm spending the night with his wife. If he finds

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Speaker 3: out what happens in this world. But I was thinking

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Speaker 3: with the wrong head. We were addicted to each other,

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Speaker 3: Linda and I. We were having sex at an abnormal

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Speaker 3: rate morning, noon, night, overnight, waking up in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the night. The chemistry was so perfect, this older

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Speaker 3: woman with a testosterone laden eighteen year old young kid.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't overcome it. We started getting careless. Linda was

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Speaker 3: very callous about it. There was one time where we

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Speaker 3: were coming back from the restaurant and Greg said, you

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Speaker 3: go home with Linda. I'm gonna go pick up the kids.

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Speaker 3: The kids will buy a friend's house or a cousin's house,

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Speaker 3: so that would give us about ten or fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 2: We walk in the door.

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Speaker 3: We didn't even close the door or clothes were coming off,

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Speaker 3: and I see the car coming down the avenue. I'm

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Speaker 3: a nervous wreck. The car is in the driveway, the

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Speaker 3: doors are opening. She runs out upstairs, and I'm fumbling

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Speaker 3: to get my pants up, waiting for him and the

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Speaker 3: kids to come in. And I feel flush and red,

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Speaker 3: and he's gonna notice. He comes in. He goes and

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Speaker 3: gets two scotches. Linda comes walking back down with a

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Speaker 3: nice nightgown on and a big smile on her face,

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Speaker 3: and Greg says, you look like the cat that ate

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Speaker 3: the canary, and I turned red.

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Speaker 2: I mean the butterflies. I can't even explain it.

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Speaker 3: It's like a championship football game and you have the

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Speaker 3: butterflies and you can't wait to run out on the field.

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Speaker 3: I felt this the worry, and Linda's laughing, and I

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Speaker 3: sipped the scotch. I became a Scotch drinking now. And

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Speaker 3: when he goes up to change, I told her, I said, Linda,

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Speaker 3: I says, we gotta stop. So I'm at the club

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Speaker 3: every day.

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Speaker 2: Greg.

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Speaker 3: He's confiding in me, and I see all these piles

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Speaker 3: of money coming in on a daily basis.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not a dummy.

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Speaker 3: I know it's not legal, but what they were doing

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Speaker 3: to me was something even at that age I thought

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Speaker 3: was accepted. You know, in Brooklyn, New York, it was

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Speaker 3: so much of it around. There was social clubs everywhere.

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Speaker 3: He's introducing me to others as his nephew. Now I'm

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Speaker 3: getting respect from these guys, other made guys, captains.

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Speaker 2: He's sort of.

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Speaker 3: Grooming me, showing me how to act like the other men,

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Speaker 3: and Linda is in his ear all the time. I

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Speaker 3: want Larry to be successful. I want it to be

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Speaker 3: respected like you. One day, Greg, he asks me to

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Speaker 3: give him a lift downtown to see Scappy. He hasd

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Speaker 3: to go to Scapy's club. He's the captain. He is

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Speaker 3: Greg's immediate boss in the structure of the family, and

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Speaker 3: why does he want me to bring him. I'm concerned

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Speaker 3: that I'm not coming home, so I don't show up.

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Speaker 3: I stay home, I stay in my little I was

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Speaker 3: living in my own little apartment now downstairs in the

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Speaker 3: basement of my family's house, and my phone is ringing

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Speaker 3: all night.

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Speaker 2: And the answering machine I hear Linda.

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Speaker 3: Larry, where are you? Greg was waiting for you, he says.

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Speaker 3: This isn't like you. You didn't show up. What's wrong?

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Speaker 3: There's got to be something wrong. Please call. She's calling

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Speaker 3: me all night. I don't call. Finally, the next morning,

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Speaker 3: I get on the phone and I see Linda. I

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Speaker 3: think he was bringing me downtown to kill me. I

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Speaker 3: think he knows about us. She got so mad at

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Speaker 3: me on the phone. How could you think that after

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Speaker 3: all this time, he loves you like a son. I

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Speaker 3: go back to the club that afternoon and Greg is hurt.

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Speaker 3: He says, Larry, why did you not show up. I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking he's going to be mad at me, but he's not.

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Speaker 3: He's hurt that I let him down. I didn't show up,

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Speaker 3: And I says a silly, stupid lie, and I know

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Speaker 3: he didn't believe it.

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Speaker 2: I says, well, I got a flat I had to

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Speaker 2: fix the tire. I was filthy.

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Speaker 3: I went home to take a shower and then it

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Speaker 3: was too late and I fell asleep. Just one lie

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Speaker 3: after the other. And I know he knows something's wrong,

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Speaker 3: and he says he's just not been the same Larry.

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Speaker 3: You're not the same Larry I met. This is borderline insanity.

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Speaker 3: Now in my head, it's over a year that I'm

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Speaker 3: with her. I'm getting closer and closer to Greg. I'm

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Speaker 3: falling more and more in.

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Speaker 2: Love with her.

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Speaker 3: Something's got to give and we're getting dangerous. Then one morning,

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Speaker 3: I know he was home that night, but he says,

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Speaker 3: come on over early, we'll have breakfast.

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Speaker 2: When I was in fourthe we'll go to the club together.

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Speaker 2: I do it. We're all, this not a problem.

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Speaker 3: I go to the house. I get there about ten.

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Speaker 3: He made pancakes and eggs. He always did that for us,

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Speaker 3: and I'm having some coffee. Then he goes downstairs to

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Speaker 3: get ready. Greg has a ritual to get ready. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I know him this well. Now he's losing his hair

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Speaker 3: a little bit, so it takes a while for him

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Speaker 3: to comb it over to the side. He puts a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of hairspray on. He even used shoe polish

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Speaker 3: to darken the bull spot. Very very egotistical, and I

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Speaker 3: knew it took him a long time to take his

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Speaker 3: shower and get ready. About ten minutes he took doing

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Speaker 3: his hair. So Linda she straddles me.

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Speaker 2: She straddles me on.

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Speaker 3: The breakfast chair, and I had a blow dryer go on.

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Speaker 3: I'm a nervous wreck. And she doesn't want to hear. No,

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Speaker 3: doesn't want to hear.

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Speaker 2: Stop.

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Speaker 3: I know if this man, he's gonna saw my head

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Speaker 3: off with a butter knife. Just as the blow dryer

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Speaker 3: went off, he comes walking them back up. We say

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Speaker 3: goodbye to Linda, he leaves, he leaves her some money,

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Speaker 3: and we go off to the club together. And I

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Speaker 3: am really off the deep end at this point. I

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Speaker 3: Am not gonna say a nervous breakdown, but that's where

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Speaker 3: I felt like I was heading. And he saw this

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Speaker 3: in me. I went to the again in the morning

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Speaker 3: to see him hat coffee. I went a little bit later.

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Speaker 3: I missed the breakfast. I got there when I knew

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Speaker 3: he would be done. I was done. I was not

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Speaker 3: gonna go to the house anymore. I would go take

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Speaker 3: care of business and go home. So we get in

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Speaker 3: the car and immediately Greg starts saying to me, Larry,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna have a conversation with you. Now I now

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Speaker 3: know he's a series mob guy. I know he's a feared,

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Speaker 3: respected Colombo soldier. And while we're driving to the club

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Speaker 3: and he's dropping these hints of where he's going with

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Speaker 3: this conversation, I remember sort of looking out the window

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Speaker 3: and drifting off to hearing about this man's reputation.

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Speaker 2: He's an enforcer, he's.

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Speaker 3: Got a ton of hits under his belt, whatever that meant.

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Speaker 2: And I'm listening to this and it's just all swirling

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Speaker 2: in my head.

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Speaker 3: Larry, I'm gonna have a conversation with you now. I

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Speaker 3: think you're mature enough to handle this, and I want

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Speaker 3: you to know, from the bottom of my heart.

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Speaker 2: It's all true. Everything I'm going to talk to you about.

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Speaker 3: I know where he's going, and the butterflies again just

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Speaker 3: eating up my stomach. And I always said I would

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Speaker 3: never admit it. There's no way I could admit it.

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Speaker 3: If I denied, deny, deny, Just.

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Speaker 2: Like that scene in The Godfather, I'll never forget it.

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Speaker 3: The brother in law Carlo Rizzy is targeted for death

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Speaker 3: by Michael al Pacino's part and Michael tells him.

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna kill you.

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Speaker 3: I'm just gonna send you off to Vegas. That's your punishment.

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Speaker 3: Just don't insult my intelligence. Tell me the truth. And

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Speaker 3: I had in the back of my mind that Greg

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Speaker 3: was the same kind of guy, cunning, smart, and he

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00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 3: would try to get the truth out of me. And

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00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 3: I said, I will never admit it. Greg tells me,

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00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,919
Speaker 3: I understand. You know that you and Linda got closed.

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Speaker 3: She thinks the world of you. You helped her out

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Speaker 3: at the store all the time. You know there were

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Speaker 3: days the kids were sick. I really know you became

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Speaker 3: a very good friend. So now we get to the club.

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Speaker 3: Get out of the car. I'm walking into the club.

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Speaker 3: I'm a nervous I'm concerned that if I waiver, I'm

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Speaker 3: not walking out of a club alive. So I got

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Speaker 3: to keep my composure, and I got to deny it.

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00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 3: I got to deny it. We get there first, we

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Speaker 3: walk in, open the gates, We go to back. He

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00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 3: has his little ritual again. He puts his keys down,

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Speaker 3: he puts his cigarettes down, he gets his chest set up.

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Speaker 3: He opens his drawer. There's a gun in there, and

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Speaker 3: if he has to get to it, quit for whatever reasons.

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Speaker 3: If I had known that, then I might have passed out.

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Speaker 3: He continues on. He says Larry, I know what's going

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Speaker 3: on between you and Linda, and.

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Speaker 2: I want you to know I'm okay with it. But

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Speaker 2: it was my moment of truth.

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Speaker 3: I looked at him and I says, Greg, you know

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00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 3: I have a lot of respect for you, and I

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00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 3: think you are far from an idiot. Only an idiot

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00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 3: wasn't see what was going on. I don't know what

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00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 3: came over me. I guess my feelings for her were

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Speaker 3: that strong where it was suicidal.

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Speaker 2: He busted out, laughing him. He banged the table his desk.

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Speaker 3: He got up with a smile on, and we were

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Speaker 3: going to walk out to the front, so I got

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Speaker 3: up with him. We walk out to the front. He

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00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 3: puts his arm around me. As we're walking out, we

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Speaker 3: pass a closet. I knew at times there would be

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Speaker 3: a shooter in that closet if the wrong answers came

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00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 3: out from somebody. We walk out to the front. It's

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Speaker 3: a sunny day. He had his dark sunglasses on, and

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Speaker 3: this parking meet is in front of our club, and

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Speaker 3: he used to lean on soak up the rays and

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Speaker 3: while we were out there, and he says, I love

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00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 3: having you around. You've made her a happy person. Her

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00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 3: happiness means everything to me. I don't want you to stop.

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00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 3: I don't want you to change anything. A strange calm

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00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 3: came over me. I believed him. I didn't feel I

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00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 3: was being set up, and he told me whatich turns

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Speaker 3: out to be one.

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Speaker 2: Of the first rules I learned to be cosinoshtra.

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Speaker 3: We could continue this affair, he said to me, but

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Speaker 3: if anyone outside the three of us finds.

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00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 2: Out, you and I will be killed. So he gives

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00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 2: me this rule. I am feeling like one of his men.

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00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 2: Now I'm with him.

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Speaker 3: Now that the cards are on the table, I'm not

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Speaker 3: stabbing him in the back anymore, because now it opens up.

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Speaker 2: A whole new thing. Now I'm seduced by Greg.

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Speaker 1: In the next episode of the Education of an Assassin,

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Speaker 1: Larry comes of age. Killers may be born. They're also

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Speaker 1: made In part two, the Grim Reaper takes Larry under

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Speaker 1: his wing. Spoiler alert, it ends with a bang. For

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Speaker 1: more on Larry's story, read his book The Life, a

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Speaker 1: true story about a Brooklyn boy seduced into the dark

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Speaker 1: world of the mafia. The creator and host of Lives

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Speaker 1: of Crime is Steve Fishman. Executive producers Steve Fishman and

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00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis Senior producer Simon Rettner, producer and engineer Austin Smith,

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00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: story editor Dan Boboff Our sound designer is Bianca Salinas,

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00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: Assistant producer Eric Axelrod. Special thanks to the inimitable Fisher Stevens,

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00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: The Glamours, Riea Julian and our agents at WME, Evan Crassik,

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00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: Marissa Hurwitz, Ben Davis. Lives of Crime is a production

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00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: of Orbit Media in association with Signal Company Number One.

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00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: Follow us at Orbitmedia FM, on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube