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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host Mark Kenyon in this episode number two oh nine,

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Speaker 1: and today in the show, we're joined by writer and

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Speaker 1: author Tovar Serule to discuss his journey from vegan to hunter,

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Speaker 1: the value of thinking deeply about hunting, the ethics of hunting,

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Speaker 1: how we talk about hunting, and much much more. All right, guys,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you

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Speaker 1: by sit Ka Gear. And today we're joined by Tovar Serule.

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Speaker 1: And Tovar is a vegan turned hunter. He's a writer.

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Speaker 1: He's the author of a book titled The Mindful Carnivore.

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Speaker 1: And this book, it's a book that I read a

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Speaker 1: few years back, and I just really enjoyed it. It's

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Speaker 1: been something I've I've turned back to and you know,

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Speaker 1: over the past couple of years and found little interesting

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Speaker 1: quotes and reread certain sections. It's really well done. And

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Speaker 1: this book chronicles Tovar's personal journey from being someone who

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Speaker 1: had a negative view of hunters and who had a

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Speaker 1: negative view of eating meat to now someone who himself

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Speaker 1: is a hunter and who is a meat eater. Um.

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Speaker 1: So that's kind of an interesting transformation on its own.

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Speaker 1: But he goes through this whole story and speaks to

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Speaker 1: a lot of other things I find really important, like

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Speaker 1: the ethics of hunting, the importance of thinking about the

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Speaker 1: why and the how of hunting. Um. He talks about

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Speaker 1: the way we represent ourselves as hunters, how we can

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Speaker 1: introduce new people to hunting, and lots and lots more

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. So it is, Ah, it's a very

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Speaker 1: interesting book. Tovar is a very interesting guy. In the

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Speaker 1: conversation we had, maybe I'm biased, but I think it

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Speaker 1: was very interesting too. So that is going to be

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Speaker 1: the main event today. UM. I'm looking forward to that.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into it, we do need to

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Speaker 1: take our traditional fifteen minutes or so for our pregame

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Speaker 1: show with my red bearded, nine fingered pale Dan Johnson. Um.

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Speaker 1: And before we start recording, Dan, you said you had

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Speaker 1: a lot on your mind. What's going on, dude, I

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Speaker 1: just like my brain has been firing on all cylinders lately,

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Speaker 1: and just a lot about I don't know a lot

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Speaker 1: about everything, but but I mean like most of it

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Speaker 1: has revolved around starting to lay out my like my

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Speaker 1: western hunting game plan. And I don't mean short term

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Speaker 1: like what I'm doing this year, but I mean long

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Speaker 1: term for you know, trying to set something up every

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Speaker 1: year or multiple times every year to head west to

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Speaker 1: hunt new species. So I like your ambitions. Man. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've I've kind of got this. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say a midlife crisis is going on, but I have

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Speaker 1: this crisis, right, But I have this realization where you know,

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Speaker 1: I got if I have this bucket list I have

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Speaker 1: written on my desk and permanent marker, right, so it's there?

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Speaker 1: Is it literally on the desk, like if you took

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Speaker 1: a marker and wrote it on the desk? Yep? Yep, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And it's my bucket list and I it's a list

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Speaker 1: of animals that I want to harvest. Is this your

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Speaker 1: desk at work? No? No, no, no, no, no no no,

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Speaker 1: this is my that'd be cool. That would be so funny.

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Speaker 1: Your boss comes up, why why have you scrawled elk, moose,

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Speaker 1: and caribou all across all across the office desk here? Damn?

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Speaker 1: My response would be why haven't you? Sorry? Continued No,

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Speaker 1: but so like, I want to put this game plan together, right,

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Speaker 1: I want to look into what I need to do

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Speaker 1: as far as preference points, as far as you know,

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Speaker 1: getting set up rules, regulations, all these things. And I

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Speaker 1: know that's kind of a long term, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: something that's not done in one night of scouting on

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Speaker 1: Google Maps, you know what I mean. But I have

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Speaker 1: been looking at like it is so addicting. I went

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Speaker 1: to onyx Maps and I signed up for their free

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Speaker 1: trial period and I've already put in hours looking at

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Speaker 1: different states throughout the West, at you know, BLM Land

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Speaker 1: and National Forest and state land and and all these things,

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Speaker 1: just kind of looking what sections, you know, starting to

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Speaker 1: look at not not right now, but look at like

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Speaker 1: trophy records, you know, as far as big deer or

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Speaker 1: big elk are taken, but more along the lines of

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Speaker 1: numbers and you know, opportunities, so to speak, and just

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Speaker 1: get something concrete to where I can say, Okay, this year,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this, Next year, I'm you in this, and

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Speaker 1: then every year add something towards the end of that. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 1: I think that's sometimes half the fun too, is just

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Speaker 1: the planning, the dreaming, the thinking about it. You know,

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Speaker 1: imagining what this might be like, all that research and scouting.

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Speaker 1: You know that that helps get you through the off

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Speaker 1: season and the long nights with the crying baby and

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Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. You know. So I'm right

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Speaker 1: there with your dude and I the the Onyx maps

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Speaker 1: if you're going out west and you need to understand

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Speaker 1: those public private borders and all that stuff. It is.

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Speaker 1: It is a super helpful tool for that kind of thing. UM.

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Speaker 1: And then I think we've talked about before, but I

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Speaker 1: combined that, like when I'm doing my Western scouting, I

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Speaker 1: combined that and then use the information on go hunt

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Speaker 1: dot com um, which I think you're familiar with as well. UM,

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Speaker 1: And they've got a whole bunch of like unit specific

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Speaker 1: data for all sorts of states, and they've got kind

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Speaker 1: of the outline all of the the things you need

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Speaker 1: to understand within each state for how to apply for tags,

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Speaker 1: what the point systems are. Just because is you know,

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Speaker 1: we've come to find out, um, being Midwesterners have begun

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Speaker 1: hunting out westmore it's a lot more complicated than just

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Speaker 1: going and picking up a tag at Walmart. UM. In

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Speaker 1: a lot of these states, at least, so UM, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm right there with you. I'm not in a position

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Speaker 1: where I feel like I can map it out years

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Speaker 1: ahead of time. There's so much flux right now for me.

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Speaker 1: But I am getting excited for this year, and already

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Speaker 1: this year, I feel like it's so much up in

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Speaker 1: the air, even a lot too, um because at one

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Speaker 1: point I thought I was gonna do a Montana elk hunt,

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Speaker 1: and now that's shifting to an Idaho elk hunt. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think maybe, So that stuff's all up in the air,

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Speaker 1: and but it's exciting so um as far as yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking, you know, things I can do right

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Speaker 1: now are look at preference points. Right, I'm too late

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Speaker 1: for most draws, but for example, Wyoming, right, they have

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Speaker 1: a um, they have a preference point system that starts

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Speaker 1: up in July, and I'll buy my you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: buy my elk and mule deer and antelope preference points.

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Speaker 1: So that way, when it comes time to you know,

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Speaker 1: start looking for a zone, I have this basically ticket

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Speaker 1: that I'm waiting in line is basically what it is,

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Speaker 1: you know, So getting ready to cash those in at

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Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, way better to be having those, you know,

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Speaker 1: doing that for years and years, and then finally when

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Speaker 1: you're ready to hunt, you've got the opportunity, versus saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: this year, I really I've got the time I want

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Speaker 1: to hunt Wyoming, but then you don't have the points

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Speaker 1: to hunt anywhere half decent. So absolutely, yeah, man, that's exciting. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually heading to Idaho. Uh speaking of going out west,

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Speaker 1: I'm heading to Idaho in two days. What are you

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Speaker 1: doing out there? The back Country Hunters and Anglers Rendezvous

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Speaker 1: is happening this weekend in Boise, So a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of hunters and anglers getting together. There's gonna be um,

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different seminars, there's gonna be um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like this big I think it's called Beers,

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Speaker 1: Bands and public lands, just kind of like a big

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Speaker 1: get together, throw down party. One night. There's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a storytelling night, um, Steve Ranella, Remy Warren, a bunch

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Speaker 1: of other folks like that. Von Schnard, the founder of Patagonia,

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Speaker 1: is gonna be speaking there. So a bunch of interesting

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Speaker 1: people will be speaking at that event. Um, bunch cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I'm on the I'm on the board for our

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Speaker 1: Michigan chapter. Still gonna do some chapter training stuff and

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Speaker 1: it should be a cool deal. So looking forward to that. Awesome.

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Speaker 1: My buddy Dan Borne is I think he's in the

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Speaker 1: Minnesota chapter and he's heading out there to uh um

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Speaker 1: cover that as well. So it should be uh, it

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Speaker 1: should be fun for you guys. Yeah, I think there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a quite a contingent of folks from all

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Speaker 1: over the country. So I'm looking forward to it. And

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Speaker 1: I was. I was originally gonna try to tack on

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Speaker 1: a turkey hunt to the end of it. I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll be out there for for two days at the event,

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Speaker 1: and I'll stay for another two days to turkey hunt

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Speaker 1: out to night Hoe because their opening days like that

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Speaker 1: next day, I think. Um. But then, man, just after

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Speaker 1: being gone for like eight or nine days or whatever

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Speaker 1: it was for the shed hunting trip, I just kind

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Speaker 1: of was thinking, you know what, I'm already gonna be

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Speaker 1: gone almost four days as it is, making that until

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Speaker 1: a seven day trip would be kind of tough on

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Speaker 1: the tough on the wife and baby. So no turkey

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Speaker 1: hunting from me, right, as you say, Gotta gotta put

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Speaker 1: family first, right, that's right. You gotta put the family

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Speaker 1: first so that you can put him last in November.

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Speaker 1: That was mean, that was unfair, dude. So today, just

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Speaker 1: just before we started recording this, um Kylie had been

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Speaker 1: feeding him and I was sitting next to We're talking

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Speaker 1: about something, and she was going to go off to

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Speaker 1: do something, so she handed him to me to you know,

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Speaker 1: to chill while she went to go do whatever she

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Speaker 1: was gonna do. And literally she hands him. In the

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Speaker 1: moment my hands touched him, he projectile vomits all over me,

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Speaker 1: like all over my chat best and pants, and I

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Speaker 1: mean like completely had to change everything. Um It's like

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Speaker 1: a half gallon of stuff all over. So dad life

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Speaker 1: is in full force these days, dude. Yeah, we'll congrats.

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Speaker 1: It always makes me feel better about myself when I

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Speaker 1: hear other dad's getting barfed on. Yeah. Yeah, men, it's

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Speaker 1: a whole new world these days. I I sit in

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Speaker 1: my office and read books about you know, told our

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Speaker 1: surule and whatnot, and then I go into the living

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Speaker 1: room and I'm puked on and cleaning up poop and

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Speaker 1: singing songs and and doing all sorts of weird new things. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of kids, though, you texted me a while back

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Speaker 1: and told me that I had to ask you about

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Speaker 1: your daughter's first shed find. Dude, it was crazy what happened.

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Speaker 1: So we were we were out at the state park

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Speaker 1: in Iowa, and they have like captive they have Captive

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Speaker 1: Buffalo and Captive elk on it just you know, so

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Speaker 1: people can drive up to the fence and go and

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Speaker 1: look right high. It's it's like a high fence type thing.

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Speaker 1: And so we're driving around. I'm with my dad. So

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Speaker 1: you hunt hunt there? Then, no, you don't. I think

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Speaker 1: you can know. Oh yeah, I'm talking for for white tails.

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Speaker 1: Although I think you can hunt there. But it's not

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Speaker 1: a high fence thing for no, not for white tails. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's just a small portion of this. I'm totally getting

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Speaker 1: you sidetrack though. That's all right, that's all right, that's

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Speaker 1: what we do. That is okay. So you're at the

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Speaker 1: state park. Ye, my kids, my kids get out to go.

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Speaker 1: My my youngest is sleeping in the car seat. My

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Speaker 1: dad takes my daughter and my son over to this

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Speaker 1: like grassy hilltop where they have a swing set, and

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Speaker 1: I'm I walk away from the vehicle and I am

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Speaker 1: looking at these cabins that potentially we could rent during

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Speaker 1: the summertime. So all of a sudden I turned around.

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Speaker 1: I hear my daughter just screaming bloody murder, and I'm

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Speaker 1: just like, what what is happening? And she's running towards me,

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Speaker 1: like she's running towards me at full force, and my

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Speaker 1: my son is running behind her, and my dad is

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Speaker 1: sitting there kind of smiling behind it all. He's not

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Speaker 1: running and Dad, Dad, Dad, And I'm like, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: What's going on? Because I thought she fell off the

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Speaker 1: swing set? And she lifts up her hand and she

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Speaker 1: finds this two point dear side and she she's running

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Speaker 1: up to me. It's like and there was there was

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Speaker 1: dear poop everywhere, so it's like, as you know, like

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Speaker 1: it was kind of similar to what we've where we're

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Speaker 1: finding all the sheds at when we went shed hunting

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Speaker 1: with Ben, right, but it was a lot shorter. So

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Speaker 1: the deer as the grass started getting a little greener,

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Speaker 1: they were out there eating the fresh green grass that

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Speaker 1: was coming up near this swing set. And this small

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Speaker 1: buck must have shed his antlers right there, because there

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Speaker 1: was deer poop everywhere, and my daughter saw it, recognized it,

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Speaker 1: and ran up to me. It's like, Dad, I just

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Speaker 1: found a dearhatler. So I I started like geeking out right,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, but where did you find it? Tell me

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Speaker 1: about it? And I started and so like my my

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm kind of trumped hers, and she didn't know what

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Speaker 1: to say. She's like, I don't know. I think I

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Speaker 1: was asking her like, what's the age class? You know,

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Speaker 1: where's the where's the right right, where's the trail right?

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Speaker 1: And she's like, Dad, you know, and I just I

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Speaker 1: just lost it. It was so exciting. And when we

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Speaker 1: got at home, this is an internal battle for me.

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Speaker 1: We got at home, She's like, Daddy, I want to

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Speaker 1: paint it. I'm like, oh no, you can't paint it.

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Speaker 1: Why dad, it's my shed. I'm just like, this is

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Speaker 1: your first shed you ever found by yourself. This is like,

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Speaker 1: this is very important. And she's like, but Dad, and

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Speaker 1: she did that little girl thing and I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you can paint it. And so she painted it, and

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Speaker 1: now we have it sitting up on this little picture

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Speaker 1: frame thing, and uh, it's pretty cool. I will remember that,

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Speaker 1: even though it wasn't an official shed hunt, I will

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Speaker 1: remember that for a very long time. That's amazing. That

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Speaker 1: is so cool. Um what what? What color? Did she

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Speaker 1: paint it? Purple and pink? Perfect, your first purple and

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Speaker 1: pink shed, I would assume, at least in the house.

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Speaker 1: It's the second one. I found a small one that

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Speaker 1: I let her paint this year. But but she wanted

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Speaker 1: this one because it was special and uh um but yeah,

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Speaker 1: and my wife she wanted to do you know, that

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Speaker 1: big one she found at Ben's. She wanted to do

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Speaker 1: some kind of decorative thing with it. And I was like, sweetie,

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Speaker 1: this is your biggest shed ever, so until you find

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Speaker 1: another shed bigger, you can't do anything with this one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna it's gonna sit in my office and collect dust.

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Speaker 1: So I could say, since this is your shed, I

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Speaker 1: will keep that in my office and dictate how it's treated.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because you know, like I get, I got

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Speaker 1: way more excited for her to find that shed than

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Speaker 1: she does. And I even give her this little space

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Speaker 1: on our wall where all of her sheds go, and

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Speaker 1: uh and you know, and she's like, well, I want

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Speaker 1: to do something creative with them, Like no, you just

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Speaker 1: like I instantly take over. I instantly took them all over. Yeah, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: I I'm right there with it. I'm a little possessive

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Speaker 1: of my sheds too. When I was gone out west

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Speaker 1: on that trip, my wife sent me a picture and

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Speaker 1: she's like, how mad does this make you? And it

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Speaker 1: was like fifteen of my sheds that I found this year,

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Speaker 1: the fourteen sheds that I picked up before my big trip.

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Speaker 1: She had taken all of them away from the place

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Speaker 1: I had put them all out, and she put them

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Speaker 1: and she put him across the mantelpiece of the fireplace.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people would I think that's cool

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Speaker 1: that that my wife is willing to put sheds on

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Speaker 1: the mantle piece of our fireplace in the living room.

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Speaker 1: But I was like so particular about where I wanted them.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know about this, right. She's always

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Speaker 1: trying to steal the sheds and like put them in

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Speaker 1: random nooks and crannies on shelves or in our bedroom

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Speaker 1: or the bathroom. And I kind of like the idea

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Speaker 1: of having all of them all in one place so

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Speaker 1: I can like bask in the glory of the multitudes um.

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Speaker 1: But I think, uh, I think that's probably changing soon,

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Speaker 1: so nothing stays permanent forever. Unfortunately, especially with when like

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Speaker 1: this room that I'm in now probably won't be my

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Speaker 1: office forever. So I'm gonna have to find a new

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Speaker 1: little corner of the house where I'm gonna need to

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Speaker 1: put all my mounts and and deer sheds. But I

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Speaker 1: have one last question for you know, we're running along

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Speaker 1: on the intro, but I have a European mount, right okay,

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Speaker 1: and I want to turn it into a regular shoulder mountain.

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Speaker 1: What did what did you have to do with it?

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Speaker 1: When you know someone found or you found Jawbreaker dead right, yes, right?

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Speaker 1: So what did you have to do to get a

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Speaker 1: shoulder mount out of a dead skull? Well, so what

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Speaker 1: happened was I found the whole you know, antlers and

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Speaker 1: skull and everything intact on him. So I took the

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Speaker 1: dead head back home with me after I got a

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Speaker 1: salvage tag from the DNR. And I had a friend,

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Speaker 1: you know, Dustin, who had he killed the buck the

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Speaker 1: year before, but decided that it was too small to

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Speaker 1: a shoulder mountain. Sid I didn't want a shoulder mount it,

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Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, he decided to keep the cape

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Speaker 1: just in case, you know, he changed his mind, And

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Speaker 1: so he had the taxidermist who is his brother in

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Speaker 1: law and a friend of mine. Um had his brother

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Speaker 1: in law keep the cape. So then I find job

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Speaker 1: breaker like four months later, and he reached out to

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Speaker 1: me and said, hey, you should shoulder mount that thing,

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Speaker 1: and you should and you should use my cape. I'm

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Speaker 1: not I don't really need it, you should do it.

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Speaker 1: So basically I just brought the dead head to the taxidermist.

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Speaker 1: He had a cape, and you know, they just saw

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Speaker 1: the skull cap with the antlers or whatever and put

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Speaker 1: that into the form. So I think that all you

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Speaker 1: need if you've got you know, you've got the skull

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Speaker 1: and antlers and tact already, bring the euro mountain and

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Speaker 1: then I do think I don't know if this is

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Speaker 1: everyone does this, but I've heard that a lot of

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Speaker 1: taxidermists have extra capes sitting around that people don't want

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and so they keep it just for

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Speaker 1: this reason. So you can probably buy a cape from

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Speaker 1: someone and then they'll, you know, he'll be able to

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Speaker 1: cut off the skull cap on top of your eural mountain,

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Speaker 1: put that in the form and stitch up the cape,

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Speaker 1: and you have a you have a shuldar mountain right.

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Speaker 1: And the reason I want to do it now is

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Speaker 1: because it fell off the wall and I don't know

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Speaker 1: what happened to it, but I came into the room

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Speaker 1: and it was on the ground and the nose portion

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Speaker 1: of it broke off. You know those thin bones that

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00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 1: can come off those all broke off, and uh so

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Speaker 1: now I it just it looks like I found it

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Speaker 1: dead and didn't shoot it, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: So I want to get it shot. I think I

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Speaker 1: want to get shoulder mounted. That's another five bucks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what buck was that? It's the buck I killed in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. It was I call it the

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Speaker 1: two by four buck because it's a four point side

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Speaker 1: with just like two really big points coming off of it,

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Speaker 1: like a main beam and then a g one and

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Speaker 1: that's it. Two. That's a cool, dear, that's a cooling.

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Speaker 1: I remember that one. I always remember that because that's

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Speaker 1: the first time I ever saw you. Was that was

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Speaker 1: the video when you shot that buck. And I will

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Speaker 1: always remember when you're like that buck came in and

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Speaker 1: made me go, oh, I'm sorry to shoot him, And

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Speaker 1: then I said, you know what, I think I like

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Speaker 1: that guy. We should do a podcast together. So it's

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Speaker 1: a huge tool, but I think I like it. And

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Speaker 1: here we are today and here we are so all right, well, um,

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Speaker 1: i'll be interested to see what that looks like. That'll

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Speaker 1: be cool. And um, on that note, I suppose unless

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Speaker 1: you've got anything else, we should we should wrap this

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Speaker 1: one up. Oh man, I'll see I'll see you U.

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Speaker 1: We'll see you tomorrow. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you're having me on your podcast. That's right. Well,

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Speaker 1: be sure check out the nine Finger Chronicles whenever that

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Speaker 1: comes out, folks. All right, well, we're gonna stop here.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take a listen to our sitcast story of

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Speaker 1: the day, and then we'll get to Barn and he'll

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Speaker 1: elevate the conversation from here. For this week's take a story,

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Speaker 1: we're joined by Beaumartinic, who tells us about a spring

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Speaker 1: turkey hunt where everything went right. It was last spring

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania when the temperatures were a lot lower than normal.

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Speaker 1: To sing turkey hunt, I left my house early in

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Speaker 1: the morning, well before light. I wanted to get a

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Speaker 1: quick hunting before work. And as I started crossing the valley,

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Speaker 1: I heard some gobbles coming across the other. This line

378
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Speaker 1: I heard up went down through the crick bottom. It

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Speaker 1: was very windy and cold on thirty eight degrees and

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of rain was coming down at this time,

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Speaker 1: so allowing to get in pretty close to the roost

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Speaker 1: of gold was. As soon as it got light enough

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Speaker 1: for the for them to come out of the roots,

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Speaker 1: I gave a few soft calls with my my Grandpa's

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Speaker 1: homemade call, and they flew down, came over the ridge

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Speaker 1: and the big tom gave me a good thirty five

387
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Speaker 1: yard shot and put him down, ran up to him,

388
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Speaker 1: grabbed the whole of him and couldn't believe what I had.

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Speaker 1: My my biggest turkey to date inch and the half

390
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Speaker 1: spurs and a ten and a half inch beard. And

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Speaker 1: it was one of the craziest and quickest hunts that

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Speaker 1: I was able to make it to work on time.

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Speaker 1: On both hunt he was wearing sickst core lightweight bass layers.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like to create a sick of story of

395
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Speaker 1: your own, or to learn more about Sitka's technical hunting apparel,

396
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 1: visit sitka gear dot com. All Right with me now?

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Speaker 1: Is Tobar severely welcome to the show. Tober glad to

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Speaker 1: be here. Hey, I I, as I just mentioned a

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Speaker 1: second ago, I been looking forward to this for a while, um,

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Speaker 1: because you're a guy who I came across I don't know,

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00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: maybe four five years ago, UM, with your book and

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00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: then some of your different articles I've seen online and

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Speaker 1: your perspective and the way you approach and talk about

404
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Speaker 1: hunting and what and how we do this. Um, it's

405
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: it's refreshing and I think it's an important one. So

406
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Speaker 1: I'm glad that I can finally gets you on here

407
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 1: for for our listeners to get to meet you. So

408
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: so thanks for taking the time to do this till

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Speaker 1: bar my pleasure and for the people who aren't familiar

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00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 1: with you yet. I offered just a very brief intro

411
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 1: before you came on here, But can you give us

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Speaker 1: the cliff notes on who you are what you do now? Sure? UM,

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Speaker 1: So you know, my whole entry into this hunting world

414
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Speaker 1: was an unusual one. I grew up fishing, but never

415
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Speaker 1: really did me hunting as a kid. UM ended up

416
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Speaker 1: becoming a vegetarian when I was twenty, was pretty strict vegetarian,

417
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Speaker 1: vegan for basically a decade UM, and then became a

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Speaker 1: hunter and mainly a deer hunter, um. And I've been

419
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Speaker 1: in in the hunting world literally, you know, hunting, and

420
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: also in lots of conversations and and research and writing

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00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 1: and all kinds of things about about hunting, um since then,

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Speaker 1: which is now going on, you know, about almost fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: So I am an author. I end up going back

424
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 1: to grad school and studying stuff related to hunting and

425
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 1: grad school, uh, and have been doing a lot of

426
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: speaking and consulting work relating to wildlife conservation, hunting relationships

427
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: between the hunting conservation world and the non hunting environmental

428
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: conservation world and all the crossovers and coalitions and alliances

429
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: that exist there and could exist there and have existed

430
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: there historically. And uh so, yeah, lots of that, lots

431
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff. Man. That's that's the kind

432
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: of thing that is right up my alley. Two. What

433
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: what specifically were you studying while you were in grad school?

434
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: What were you working on there? So I did my

435
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: um my master's thesis on what I called adult onset hunters,

436
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: those of us who caught the bug late uh, and

437
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: I interviewed a bunch of folks who had, like me,

438
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: you know, come to hunting as adults and just investigated,

439
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, what it was that motivated them, how they

440
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: thought about it. The discipline I was in as communication,

441
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: so really paying attention to the language and how we

442
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: tell stories about things and how we make sense of

443
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: these things that we do in our life. UM, And

444
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: that was fascinating to listen to folks and and here

445
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: um their unique perspective, the commonalities among them, which in

446
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: some ways are very different from folks who grew up hunting,

447
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: but in some ways are very similar, and we just

448
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: use different language to talk about it, but we have

449
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: a lot of similar experiences and often similar sorts of

450
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: values and feelings about what we're doing in in hunting.

451
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: We just come at it from different sort of backgrounds culturally.

452
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: So so what's what was your goal or with that

453
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: line of your thesis there and in the study that

454
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: you're doing and now the communication work you're doing looking

455
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 1: into these connections between non hunting conservationists and hunters and

456
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: how we talk about these things. And basically all these

457
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 1: topics that you just listed off are exactly what I'm

458
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: hoping we can spend this entire time talking about. UM.

459
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: But what why does this intrigue you so? Much. Why

460
00:25:53,080 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: are you looking into this? Why is this important? Um?

461
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: Other than you know, being fascinated by interesting stories and

462
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: interesting people. Uh. You know, I think that they're despite

463
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: our differences. I say, in the conservation world and the

464
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: environmental world broadly, despite our differences, there is so much

465
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: common ground. There are so many common values. And because

466
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: of you know, issues around hunting or particular types of hunting,

467
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: or you know, historical conflicts over some particular piece of

468
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: legislation or any number of things locally, nationally, whatever scale

469
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: you want to think about. UM, we tend in those

470
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: worlds in particular to paint each other as the big problem,

471
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: like the enemy. So you know, among amongst certain hunting

472
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: conservation circles, you know, a certain subset of that world,

473
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: you know, the non hunters or anyone who the non

474
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: hunters an anti hunter there like you know, it's the

475
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: antis and the environmentalists that's the big problem. That's what

476
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: threatens hunting more than anything. And I don't buy that

477
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: for a second. And similarly on the sort of environmental side.

478
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: And you'll get some people thinking that you know, hunters, um,

479
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: and what they stand for is really that's really the

480
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: big problem. You know, that they're driving species extinct, you know,

481
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: even here domestically, you know, in North America, which just

482
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: isn't the case, you know. Um and so there's a

483
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: lot of misconceptions and just stereotypes about environmentalists when that

484
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: tends to go along with stereotypes of liberals, and stereotypes

485
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: about hunters, which tend to go along with stereotypes of conservatives,

486
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: and these gross, gross stereotypes that we spend so and

487
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: granted we have differences, and granted there are differences, but

488
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: we spend so much time and so much energy focus

489
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: on the differences and on each other as enemies that

490
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: we miss this huge common ground in the middle, this

491
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: huge amount of common value if you just get rid

492
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: of some of those stereotypes and some of those assumptions,

493
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: and you start to listen to folks and start to

494
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: learn their language a little bit like, ah, that's like me,

495
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: that's kind of similar, you know. Um. So I spent

496
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: a lot of time you know, with people across that

497
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: whole spectrum and listening to folks and getting a sense

498
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: of where they're really coming from, what their values are,

499
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: and what you know, what drives them to support you know,

500
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: conservation or to be opposed to some initiative that some

501
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: other groups has put forth. And uh, you know, the

502
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: more time I spend doing it, the more I'm convinced that,

503
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, we have a lot more in common and

504
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: could and have historically and still do when allied with

505
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: each other, when pulling together accomplished this incredible stuff, you know,

506
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: as it's happened over the past century and more. Um,

507
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: But in these political times, and I don't mean just

508
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: you know, the past year, but I mean you know

509
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: the past decade, where we tend to be more and

510
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: more polarized and you know, little echo chambers on social

511
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: media and so on. Um, I think that we're at

512
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: risk of losing some of that collaborative spirit. Yeah, yeah,

513
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: I agree. And like you said, if you look back

514
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: in history, there's there's so many examples of us doing

515
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: these things together. You look back to Teddy Roosevelt and

516
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: John Muir, or you look back at Elder Leopold and

517
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: Bomb marshall um and so many other examples of that.

518
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: Where when the when the hunting and non hunting conservation

519
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: communities can come together to work towards those shared goals,

520
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: we can achieve so so much more but it does

521
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: take that open line of communication, and it does take

522
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: that willingness to look past stereotypes and um, you know,

523
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: and like you said, sometimes there are differences. We aren't

524
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: going to see everything i'd eye, but maybe six things

525
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: I attend we do, and let's work on those things.

526
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: And then maybe by way of working on those things together,

527
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: we can start to better understand each other on the

528
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: things that we have differently, and because there might be

529
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: progress to we make there too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And

530
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: you know, historically it's not like it was easy necessarily

531
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: seventy five years ago or fifty years ago, but there

532
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: was I think in quite a few cases a lot

533
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: more common ground. I mean, there was you know, they

534
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: were editorials being written in you know, field and Stream

535
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: in the mid twentieth century that you just never see today.

536
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: You know. They were just so explicitly pro environment, you know,

537
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 1: and the support that like the Wilderness Act of sixty

538
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: four had was so broad politically, despite you know, regardless

539
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: of whatever you think about some of the ways that

540
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: it's been implemented and some of the rules related to it,

541
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: you know, there has been a lot of of of

542
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: common ground, and I think it's important to continue to

543
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: to find that. Yeah, yeah, I want to. I want

544
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: to dive into that a little more and examine how

545
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: we can do that maybe. But before that, I think

546
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: I probably need to rewind the tape a little bit too,

547
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: better get our foundation here in your story and how

548
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: you got to this point, because you mentioned the fact

549
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: that you were a vegetarian for a long time back, um,

550
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: some number of years ago, and then you made this

551
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: transition to now becoming a hunter, and not only a hunter,

552
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: but a hunter who's who's you know, prolifically talking about

553
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: it and sharing your story with people. UM. And so

554
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: you tell that story in pretty fascinating detail in your book,

555
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: The Mindful Carnivore. It's a it's a book I've really enjoyed, UM,

556
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: I highly recommended to people. UM. And I want to

557
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: hear a little bit of your thoughts on what you're

558
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: what you're doing with that book and what you're trying

559
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: to achieve in that journey. But I want to I

560
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: want to read the quote, UM, that you let off

561
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: the book with. There's a quote here from a Mary Midgeley,

562
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: and it says that the symbolism of meat eating is

563
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: never neutral to himself the meat eater seems to be

564
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: eating life. To the vegetarian, he seems to be eating death.

565
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: There's a kind of just ault shift between the two positions,

566
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: which make it hard to change and hard to raise

567
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: questions on the matter at all without becoming embattled. And

568
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: I think this kind of this quote very neatly kind

569
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: of ties up some of the things we've already been

570
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: talking about, and it does do a nice job of

571
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: kicking off the theme of your story in that book. Um,

572
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: can you just tell us a little bit more about

573
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: that journey in detail? I mean, how did you go

574
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: from this point to be it sounds like from what

575
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: I remember reading quite more really opposed to the idea

576
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: of killing an animal um and hunting to now where

577
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: you are. Now, can you fill us in a little

578
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: more on what that experience is like, what triggered these

579
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: changes in your mindset and led you to this point? Sure? Yeah, So,

580
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean I became a vegetarian and then a vegan

581
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: very strict, you know, not having dare your eggs or

582
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: anything um, largely out of concern for animal welfare, you know,

583
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: compassion for other living beings and not wanting to cause

584
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: unnecessary suffering. And so on. Um. And that was when

585
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: I was about twenty, and other reasons piled up. I mean,

586
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: you get, this happens with any of us. I think

587
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: you get convinced of a certain lifestyle or you know,

588
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: a certain choice, and then you find lots of other

589
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: reasons that justify it. So whether they're you know, health

590
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: rationales or environ mental ecological rationales, all kinds of other

591
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: sort of things come along that you can latch onto

592
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: and use, uh to support that choice, that position. And

593
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: so I stuck with that for those reasons, you know, uh,

594
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: for for most of a decade. And then towards you know,

595
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: the end of that period of time, I started to

596
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: realize that, first of all, my diet, whatever I was eating,

597
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: was not somehow removed from and innocent in impacts on

598
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: the natural world. I mean, the way we create crop

599
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: fields is we you know, we rip up prairie or

600
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: we fell forest or whatever. You know, there's wildlife habitat

601
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: that gets gets destroyed to create agriculture. And then we

602
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: if we have any large numbers of deer or or

603
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: other creature is that are coming to feast on that agriculture, well,

604
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 1: then you know we have to kill them or control

605
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: them in some way. And I started to read books

606
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: like it's a fantastic book called Heart and Blood by

607
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: Richard Nelson about deer, one of my favorite books about

608
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 1: about deer. Uh. He's an anthropologist and he studies people's

609
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: relationships with deer all across North America. And I realized, Wow,

610
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: there are these, you know, soybean fields and pumpkin fields,

611
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: and at any high density of of deer population, farmers

612
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: and folks who get egg tags are killing a lot

613
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: of deer to protect these agricultural crops. Almost any agricultural

614
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: crop involves, you know, controlling deer in most of North America.

615
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: And I found that rather disturbing. As a vegan. That's like, what,

616
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 1: you know, what does that mean now if I'm eating

617
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 1: vegetables tofu made of soybeans? You know, Um, this sort

618
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: of disconcerting to realize how much is going on. And

619
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: of course grain combines are chopping up smaller creatures all

620
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: the time and so on. So I was still vegetarian

621
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: at that point. But what those realizations did is they

622
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: took this very black and white view I had of

623
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: the world. You know, plants, good animals, bad for food, um.

624
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: And it introduced a lot of gray and I these

625
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: very hard edges, these hard ethical distinctions that I made,

626
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: started to soften a bit. So I was just a

627
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: bit more open minded to possibilities and what things mean

628
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: and don't mean. And then a few years later, maybe

629
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: two years later, UM, my doctor um looked at my

630
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 1: blood chemistry and said, you know, your your health, maybe

631
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: in my immune system. I wasn't like I was definitely ill,

632
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: but my my immune system wasn't doing great. And she said,

633
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: you know, you might want to consider some change to

634
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: your diet because your your blood chemistry suggests that nutrition

635
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: is a bit off. Um. And she suggested that I,

636
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, put some animal foods back into my diet. Um.

637
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: And So between that initial realization and that sort of

638
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: a softening of those categories, you know, hardening of the

639
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 1: categories is I think the dangerous disease uh. And then

640
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: my you know, dietary and nutritional. So the situation, I said, okay,

641
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: let's try something different. Um. So first it was like

642
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: a bowl of yogurt, you know, which is if you've

643
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: been a vegan for a decade, like a bowl of

644
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: yogurt is pretty radical. Big deals time referred to as radical.

645
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: And then you know, some some eggs, and we started,

646
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, buying some local chicken. And at that point

647
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: I said, you know, we started eating some fish too.

648
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: And my wife had been vegetarian and she sort of

649
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: went this whole journey with me. Uh And I said, well,

650
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm eating other creatures now. I mean, I'm back to

651
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: this and dealing with psychologically dealing with, you know, eating

652
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: other creatures, which is kind of weird if you've been

653
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: a vegetarian for a long time. Um. So I said,

654
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back to fishing. You know, I'm gonna

655
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 1: start getting back into into fishing and taking some degree

656
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: of firsthand responsibility being involved directly with that. So I

657
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: did that, and within you know, a year, I started

658
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: just thinking about hunting. I live in a rural area.

659
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: I live in north central Vermont. I look out the

660
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: door and there's woods and you know, there's deer and

661
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 1: some small game. And said, you know, I wonder about hunting.

662
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: And I didn't have any immediate background in at my

663
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: uncle on my mom's side, one of my uncle's is

664
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: a hunter, but I didn't grow up right around him,

665
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: and so I didn't have any direct immediate family or

666
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: friends that that hunted, and so it seemed kind of foreign, uh,

667
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 1: kind of a strange idea. But hunting culture is still

668
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: pretty alive here. It's not you know, it's not hidden.

669
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: There's plenty of hunters around. And I just started to

670
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: entertain the possibility and and toy with it and talk

671
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: to my uncle and just sort of ease into it.

672
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: And part of the reluctance was both the idea of

673
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: taking a life of a large mammal like a deer.

674
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: I was reluctant somewhat to do that, but also because

675
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: I had so many and we have generally as a culture,

676
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: so many conflicting um ideas and feelings and stereotypes about hunting.

677
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: It was not just the act of hunting, which appealed

678
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: to me as an outdoors person, you know, I already

679
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: like to hike and watch wildlife and look for a

680
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: wildlife sign and all that stuff. So it was just

681
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: another another layer to getting to know the land, you know,

682
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: through a hunter's eyes. That was appealing in and of itself,

683
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: um as was the conflicted sort of ethical confrontation with

684
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: you know, taking life of a big animal. Um But

685
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: the idea of becoming a hunter, just that identity. It's

686
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: kind of weird coming from coming from where I came from, Like,

687
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: what's it going to mean if I'm a hunter? And

688
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: is that? Was that appealing and like some kind of

689
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: romantic notion of the backwoods hunter of the un or

690
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: is that appalling when you thought of the stereotypes of

691
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: the beer guzzling redneck, shoot him up, bang them up?

692
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: Whoa um, a little bit of the appeal, but probably

693
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: more of the appall like who you know, who am

694
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: I going to be? Like in my own eyes, in

695
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: my friends sizes? And you know, it's just a strange

696
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: thing to contemplate. And hunting, incidentally, and I covered this

697
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: a little bit in my book. Even though we have

698
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 1: a various sort of mythologies about hunting in American history,

699
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: hunting has actually always been kind of a conflicted thing.

700
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: It was a conflicted thing for the early settlers in

701
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: terms of who got to hunt back in Europe and

702
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: who hunted here, namely mostly American Indians, um, And so

703
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: it was sort of sort of social class and culture

704
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: and religion. The Puritans didn't like it, because people enjoyed it.

705
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there's all kinds it's always been kind of conflicted.

706
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: That how it's been conflicted has changed over the years

707
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: and the degree to which has been conflicted, but it's

708
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: always been this kind of weird thing. So would that

709
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: being the case, how did you mentioned a second ago

710
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: with not only did you have to think about what

711
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: this change meant for you, but what do your friends

712
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: think at the time? What are the your fellow the

713
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: gains are vegetarians think as you were considering making this change,

714
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: and then when you did, were you were they supportive?

715
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: Were you ostracized? Did they think you're nuts? Yeah? Mostly

716
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: I had. I was more fearful of it than that

717
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 1: I needed to be, you know, I was. I guess

718
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,439
Speaker 1: that wasn't fearful, but I wondered um And mostly there

719
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: was no big blowback or anything. I think some people.

720
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: Even the idea of the fishing was kind of weird

721
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: for some people that I knew. But a lot of

722
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: my friends weren't vegetarians, and they just knew that I was,

723
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: and some were, but it was I was. It was

724
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 1: overall a pretty easy transition. UM. Some people were certainly surprised,

725
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: neighbors and friends who would find out that I was

726
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: hunting or see me out a neighbor walking his dogs,

727
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: like what are you doing out here? Uh? But I

728
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: had a lot to do with their knowledge of me.

729
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: And there's you know, some some of them they're stereotypes

730
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: of hunting and of hunters. UM. So I didn't exactly

731
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: advertise it. When I first started to explore this and

732
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: first started to get back into fishing and hunting. It

733
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: wasn't something that I that I talked about a lot

734
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: or publicized in any way. Um. And actually when I

735
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: first wrote an essay for a very short, like one

736
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: page essay for a magazine about this transition into into

737
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: being a hunter, I was a little bit unsure how

738
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: people would react, you know, I think if it was

739
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: my first step coming out at the closet as a hunter,

740
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, like, who's who's going to find out on

741
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: one hunter? And what are they gonna think? Um? And

742
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: then you know, I wrote another essay for different magazine

743
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 1: about about a similar of similar sort of thing, and

744
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: then started to commplate this idea of of actually writing

745
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: a book, which you know, I just felt compelled to

746
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: do it. And you asked a few minutes ago, like

747
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: what were you aim to accomplish? You know, I had

748
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,760
Speaker 1: no idea. I just felt compelled like I had written

749
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: this essay and I thought, gosh, maybe this is the

750
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: seed of a book. Maybe I could develop I've never

751
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: written a book before, you know, maybe I could develop

752
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: this into a full fledged book. And just the idea

753
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: sort of nod at me, and I started to do

754
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: some research into how do you get a book published?

755
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: And you know, it took me a couple of years

756
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: to to make it happen, but it just wouldn't let

757
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: go of me. I felt like I was a story

758
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: that I just had to had to tell for some reason. Yeah,

759
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 1: I'm glad you did. Um. I think there's there's an

760
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: important story to be told here. Um. So you you

761
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: had this compulsion to start taking some form of responsibility

762
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: for the animal protein that you're eating and that your

763
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: your impact on the world. You had an uncle who

764
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: was showing you some things about hunting. You eventually, you

765
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: know from from reading from having read the book, I

766
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: know that you eventually started going out and eventually you

767
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 1: do kill a deer. Eventually A key word there. Tell

768
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: me what what was that experience? Like? What we're what

769
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:32,399
Speaker 1: was going through your mind, through your heart? What what happened. Well,

770
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: you know, it took me a few years. I was

771
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: though I hunt. I hunted both season, rifle season, muzzle

772
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: litter season. Um. Mostly I was hunting rifle season. And

773
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: after my second year, after my first year hunting, I

774
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: think that meant that here in Vermont, I was restricted

775
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 1: to you know, ah forked fork dandlers. You know, I

776
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: have an antler restriction rule here, so no does, no

777
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: spike horns, no fonts, just you know, bucks with with

778
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: more antler. And so I'd see deer, but I very

779
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: rarely saw a deer that was legal for me. And

780
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: I was pretty clueless and just trying to figure things out.

781
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: So it took me several years. And by the time

782
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: I got it was like beginning of my fourth autumn

783
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: of of of deer hunting. And I had taken one

784
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: ill advised shot in rifle season a couple of years

785
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: earlier and hit a branch. You know, didn't hit the deer, thankfully, Um,

786
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: but I had sort of given up, almost like I

787
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: was still going out there. That happened. If it was

788
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: in a place with more deer, or I had more

789
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 1: of a clue, I might have had more faith. But

790
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: the success rate here in Vermont in rifle season is

791
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: pretty darn low, and my confidence had had slept quite bit.

792
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: And then second morning of that that rifle season, a

793
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: couple of hours into into that morning, you know, here

794
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: comes this this buck and I was completely shocked. And

795
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: he came into it was pretty thickly wooded area that

796
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: I hunt, and he came into about thirty yards away

797
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: and had his head down on a scrape, and you know,

798
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: I didn't have a clear shot, and he took that.

799
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 1: He took that last step and I had a clear

800
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: shot and squeeze the trigger and he did that little

801
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: hunch to jump that they'll do, and you've got a good,

802
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: good heart shot, and you know, ran about twenty yards

803
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: and went down and didn't get up. And I was

804
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: in complete shock. I mean I was a complete shock

805
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: because it had happened. Partly, I was like, oh my god,

806
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: that's finally happened, but more more importantly, I was in

807
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: kind of emotional shock that I had just killed this animal,

808
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: and I had killed you know, in the previous few years,

809
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: I've done some small game hunting. I shot a few

810
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: snowfoot hairs and I taken out a few woodchucks in

811
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: the garden and that kind of thing. But you know,

812
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: killing a big animal like a deer, it's a totally

813
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: different thing. And I was just kind of numb at first,

814
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: like just shocked that had happened, and that that here's

815
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 1: this dead animal. Um So I you know, went through

816
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: the field dressing and dragged out the deer with the

817
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: help of a friend, and I realized it was over.

818
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: The next I don't know, a few hours or day

819
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: or so that I was sad. I mean, I was.

820
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 1: There was a lot of grief for me. I had,

821
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, taken the life of this this gorgeous, gorgeous animal,

822
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: and I wondered, I was like, am I gonna want

823
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: to do this again? This is all this effort, all

824
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: this time, all of and I, yeah, I'm getting food

825
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: out of it, but I've also, you know, bear the

826
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: responsibility for I've been taken this life firsthand. Do I

827
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: want to do that again? And it was the for me.

828
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: It was the process of butchering that animal. It was

829
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: a process of and which I always knew i'd do myself.

830
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: You know, I'd helped my uncle do it once, and

831
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: I knew that just as being a vegetarian. I wasn't

832
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 1: gonna just start, you know, um buying meat from the

833
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: lots to meet from the grocery store, and I wanted

834
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: to hunt it. I wasn't gonna now turn around and

835
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: take it to a butcher. I needed to really take

836
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: it all the way through, go through with the whole thing.

837
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,879
Speaker 1: And so standing there for hours and hours working on

838
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: the butchering of of that deer was it was an

839
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: amazing experience for me and really got me grounded and

840
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: it felt like, you know, this is so familiar, like

841
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: this is ancient and I'm okay with it. Actually, I'm

842
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: this is part of you know, call it what you will,

843
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, a circle of life or whatever you wanna

844
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: call it, but this is, you know, this is the

845
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: way things are, and it's okay for me to be

846
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: part of it. And it actually feels, you know, it

847
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: feels appropriate and yeah, okay, I don't want to rush

848
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: out and kill another deer next week, but by the

849
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: time next fall all rolls around, yeah, I'll probably do

850
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: this again. Did you have any hesitation actually before pulling

851
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: the trigger, when you realize that a shot was there,

852
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 1: did you still have this moment of do I really

853
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: want to do this or had you already made that

854
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 1: decision so far ahead of time and putting so much

855
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: time that it was just you know, happening. It was

856
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: just at that point, it was just happening. I mean, yeah,

857
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: at that point it was I've been I've been on

858
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 1: that I've been on that path for years at that point,

859
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: and I knew if I was giving the opportunity, I

860
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: knew where it was going. So what about now, how

861
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: does your feeling or what is that moment like now

862
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: after killing a deer? Do you feel the same things

863
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: that you felt that first time? Do you ever still

864
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: have those questions? Um? Or I don't know where where's

865
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: your head at now when you walk up on a

866
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: deer you just shot? Yeah, it's it's really different now.

867
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: I mean it's still and it's sort of has is evolved.

868
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 1: Like the second year was different, the third year was different,

869
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: you know, the fourth year of the fifty or the

870
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: sixth year, you know, each deer was different. Um And

871
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: for quite a few years it was still a serious shock,

872
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: Like my I was like in an altered state for

873
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 1: like another day or two after that. Not the same

874
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: kind of shock, not the same kind of conflicted feelings. Um,

875
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 1: not doubting it at all, you know, in that way,

876
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: but just the power, you know, the the powerful and

877
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: sort of awesome moment, in that old sense of awe

878
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: of you know, beauty and power and of taking a

879
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,720
Speaker 1: life is still you know, still something that really affects me. Um.

880
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't affect me as much as it did in

881
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: those first few years. Um, but it's still you know,

882
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: it's sacred. I mean, it's a I think it's a

883
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 1: powerful and sacred thing and it needs to be done

884
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: respectfully and and all of that. But I'm not conflicted

885
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: like I used to be. Yeah, yeah, that's that first year.

886
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: Now I feel like I feel like I even have

887
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: a lot of the same feelings and thoughts. And it

888
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: is a powerful it's a powerful, sacred thing, I think.

889
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: I think if you don't have those feelings, or if

890
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: you get to a point where you don't feel something,

891
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: I don't know how to always explain that complicated kind

892
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: of swamp of emotions that many of us feel after

893
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 1: having taken a life. Um, but if there's not something

894
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 1: deep that you are experiencing in that moment, I worry

895
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: a little bit. I worry that something has been lost there.

896
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, I mean you go back to you know,

897
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: you go back to cave art. I mean, you know,

898
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: animals have been important to human beings forever, you know,

899
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: and there's always been you know, like rituals and ceremonies

900
00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: around the hunt, and you know, people have always recognized,

901
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 1: in various cultures, in various ways that our relationship with

902
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: these animals, you know, and frankly, with the act of killing,

903
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 1: you know, of the violent taking of another life, especially

904
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: of another big mammal, you know, that deserves to be

905
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: treated with a certain degree of reverence and and even caution,

906
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, sort of morally and spiritually. And the thing

907
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about, h not so much with hunters in general,

908
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: but just our relationship with animals in general for food,

909
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 1: is that you know, so many of us again not

910
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: so much hunters, but you know, Americans for example, in general,

911
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: I think, becomes so disconnected from the animal that it's

912
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:55,800
Speaker 1: just meat, you know, and there's its has no soul,

913
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: it has no heart. When we go to the grocery store,

914
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 1: it's just a commodity. It's just a package. It came

915
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 1: on a truck, you know. Um, and that's and that's

916
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: one thing that I think actually hunters have in common

917
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: with a lot of vegetarians is that a lot of

918
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: vegetarians refuse to say, oh, that's just meat. I'm not

919
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: going to think about it as an animal. You know.

920
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: They say, no, it's an animal. You know, we got

921
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: to respect that, and I choose not to eat it,

922
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: you know, and hunters, by and large, we'll say, you know,

923
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to just think of all my food

924
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: as just food. Now, it's also an animal that I

925
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: you know, I know that animals habits, I know the

926
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: places where that animal lives, and I know that individual animal,

927
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: the life of you know, which I took. And and

928
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: so there's a you know, we sort of by hunting,

929
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: we're forcing ourselves and want to stay connected to that

930
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: and not just make all meet some commodity on the shelf. Yeah. Yeah,

931
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: it's a it's a unique perspective, just a powerful connection

932
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: I think that we uniquely get as hunters. That. Yeah,

933
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: sometimes it's it's hard, it's a it's a frustrating irony

934
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 1: when you find some people who don't hunt, but who

935
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 1: do eat meat just fine, who want to attack hunters

936
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: for doing what we do and I can understand sometimes

937
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: when they see something, how it can seem disrespectful to animals.

938
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: How there are certainly things out there that frame hunting

939
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: and hunters in a bad light. And I can understand

940
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 1: why nine hunters would see that and nothing too keenly

941
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 1: of us sometimes, um, but sometimes there is some amazing

942
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 1: hypocrisy out there. Then that is I think on us

943
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: to better communicate and help people understand why we do

944
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: what we do and how we do it and how

945
00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 1: maybe it Unfortunately none of us have clean hands, right,

946
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: as you said earlier, we all make an impact. We

947
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: all have blood on our hands, whether we want to

948
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: admit it or not. If even if you're not eating meat, Um,

949
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: just by living in this society, we all make an impact.

950
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 1: And I think we as hunters, um, like you said,

951
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: we at least can try to take responsibility for some

952
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: portion of that, reconnect with that in some way. And UM,

953
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty powerful thing. And and all

954
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: this stuff we're talking about, UM, I never used to

955
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: think about this at all. You know, I grew up

956
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: in a hunting family. I started going out in the

957
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: woods when I was three years old and I was

958
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: sitting in the blind with my dad at four and

959
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: I was hunting with a bow in my hand at

960
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen. And I don't think I ever thought

961
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 1: about what I was doing or why I was doing it,

962
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: or it was just yeah, it was it was just

963
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 1: what you did. And I knew, I knew I enjoyed

964
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 1: doing it. I enjoyed being up there with my grandpa,

965
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: my dad and my uncle, and I liked being in

966
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: in the woods, and I loved watching deer, and I

967
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: love the idea of hunting. Um. And I ended up,

968
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, being able to kill a deer and then

969
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: another deer, and I started having success doing that, and

970
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: I enjoyed in venice, and it was it was just

971
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: what you did. Um. And I think a lot of

972
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: people who grow up hunting, having been just in that culture,

973
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: in that world, UM, you might not ever take a

974
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 1: second to step back and start thinking about hunting. It

975
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: wasn't for me until I was probably twenty one or

976
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: twenty two or somewhere around then, when I started actually

977
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: writing and reading a lot about hunting. Um. You know,

978
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: just through my work with Wired Hunt, I just was

979
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: thinking about a lot more, trying to like communicate about it,

980
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: which led me to reading about other people's perspectives on it,

981
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: which forced me to start looking at myself, forced me

982
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: to start looking at what I was doing and how

983
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: I was doing it and what that meant. And that

984
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: has been one of the most powerful transitions I think

985
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: for myself as a hunter over the last decade, as

986
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: I've gone from just being a hunter to becoming a

987
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 1: thoughtful hunter and to actually doing things, um with a

988
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: clarity of mind, maybe an understanding of of why and

989
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 1: how I'm doing these things. Um. You, interestingly, being an

990
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: adult onset hunter, you were kind of forced to do

991
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 1: that deep thinking leading up to it because you had to.

992
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: For me, I didn't even have a decision to make.

993
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: It was just this is what you did, and I

994
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: just fell into it. I think as an adult coming

995
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: to this, you have to think about these things deeply

996
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: and and and decide whether or not this is the

997
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: right thing for you to do and how you're gonna

998
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: do it. Um, why do you think Maybe it's not

999
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: even why, but I think so. Do you think that

1000
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: this kind of deep thinking, like considering why we do

1001
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: these things, how we do these things, all these things

1002
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: we just talked about, Do you think it's important for

1003
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 1: people even that have been hunting their entire lives, to

1004
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: start asking these questions of themselves, or at least to

1005
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: be thinking about these ideas and topics. I think it's

1006
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: I think it's really useful for a variety of reasons, um,

1007
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 1: And I can touch on one or two of those. Um.

1008
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: I mean I'm hesitant to sort of proselytize anybody and say, no, yeah,

1009
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: you grew up hunting, but now you've got to think

1010
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: about it, and as there's a little heavy handed, you know,

1011
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: to tell people sort of how to think or what

1012
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: to think. Um, but I do you know, I do

1013
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: think it is helpful for all of us, whether we

1014
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: grew up you know, non hunting or in an anti

1015
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: hunting family, to think about and investigate our own beliefs

1016
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: and our own assumptions and and learn more about other perspectives.

1017
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 1: And the same true for folks who you know, grew

1018
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: up in a very much in a hunting family and

1019
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: hunting culture, to say, oh, well, you know, why why

1020
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: do I think about it this way? And why do

1021
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 1: those people think about it that way? And just understand. Um.

1022
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I think it's really useful

1023
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 1: to do the kind of you know, reflection and question

1024
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: that you've obviously done. Um. Is that it helps you

1025
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: become a better ambassador. It helps you become someone who

1026
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: can help build these connections and coalitions, you know, whether

1027
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: it has to do with you know, wildlife habitat or

1028
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 1: public lands or you know, connections between what I call

1029
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: adult stuff hunting and the food movement and just finding

1030
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: the common ground. That doesn't it's not turn everyone into hunters,

1031
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 1: and that's not the goal. You know, things would be

1032
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: insane if everyone hunted. Uh, just if there's the numbers, Um,

1033
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 1: it's not. That's not the point. It's not sting everyone

1034
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: in the hunters. But if we want sustainable funding for

1035
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: our fish and wildlife agencies, if we want you know,

1036
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 1: intact public lands where a variety of types of of

1037
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: recreation are possible for human beings and a variety of

1038
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 1: diverse wildlife species can can survive, that we need to

1039
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 1: be able to work together and not always be on

1040
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:31,919
Speaker 1: these you know, these opposing sides and not perceive ourselves

1041
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 1: as being on one side versus this, uh, you know,

1042
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: this enemy. So I think for that reason alone, and

1043
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 1: there are other benefits too, But I think for that

1044
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: reason alone, it's really helpful to reflect on those things

1045
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: and start to recognize some of the ways that we

1046
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: communicate as the other side quote unquote other side communicates,

1047
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 1: whether it's through you know, the words we use and

1048
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: the images we use that you know don't help, in

1049
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: other ways that do help. Yeah, it's something that UM,

1050
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: maybe to the chagrin of our listeners sometimes I preach

1051
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: about this often in that just being this um what

1052
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:22,360
Speaker 1: you just subscribed there, How we are perceived by non hunters,

1053
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: how we communicate to non hunters, It matters. And you know,

1054
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 1: no Number one, like you said, we do want some

1055
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 1: additional hunters. We do need to make sure we don't

1056
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: lose our hunting population because we have a we have

1057
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: a powerful, meaningful impact on the natural world, and we

1058
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: fund a lot of things, and the work we do

1059
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 1: from a conservation standpoint is important. So bringing more people

1060
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: into the fold, yes, definitely important. But number two, at

1061
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: a minimum, it's important that people will at least be

1062
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: accepting of our way of life because we live in

1063
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: a democracy where votes in the end end up deciding

1064
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: very often what privileges are allowed and whether you like

1065
01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 1: it or not. Hunting is a privilege right now. It's

1066
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: not something that's guaranteed by the Constitution or anything like that.

1067
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: So if we want to be able to continue to hunt,

1068
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: we need to make sure that people that are voting

1069
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 1: view our activity as as something that's acceptable in today

1070
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: today's world. And that's on us to make sure that's happening,

1071
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're representing ourselves in such a

1072
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 1: way that people can see that and say, Okay, you

1073
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 1: know what, I get that I maybe don't want to

1074
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 1: do it, but I'm okay with Mark killing a deer

1075
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: and feeding his family that way. Um. You you said

1076
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: something in a blog post I saw that I liked,

1077
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: um that I think would help this whole challenge of

1078
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: helping hunters non hunters meet and see some things maybe

1079
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 1: a little more eyed eye. You said, quote, what if

1080
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 1: at least once in their respective lifetimes, every prius hauleda

1081
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: deer and every hunter drove a hybrid? Can you can

1082
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 1: you explain that? Why? Why that might be helpful? Well?

1083
01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: It was, you know, the that particular their posts came

1084
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: out of an experience I had, right, I took a

1085
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: white Tail and we had my friend and I had

1086
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: two vehicles where we were hunting. We had We had

1087
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: my little hatchback in his little back. Uh I used

1088
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 1: to I used to have a pickup truck, but at

1089
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 1: the time I was driving a you know, a little

1090
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: superdu hatchbag. But what we had right there at the

1091
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 1: wood lot, uh family wood lot of of his was

1092
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,919
Speaker 1: his prius. He turns out he's a lifelong hunter. He's

1093
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 1: not a you know, not an adult lonset. But I

1094
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: took a picture of it, and I just had these

1095
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, behind legs of this white tail buck hanging

1096
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 1: out at the end of a prius because it couldn't

1097
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: fit in there, you know, And it was just just

1098
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 1: the image was so funny. Um. And but I thought

1099
01:05:54,880 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: it was a great metaphor for bringing together these different uh,

1100
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: these different communities and just sort of trying on for size.

1101
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 1: You know. Hey, we can think about deer hunting, for example,

1102
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: UM as you know, local, free range, pretty nearly organic food,

1103
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: which really appeals to the to the you know folks

1104
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 1: in the environmental conservation community. UM, but they don't necessarily

1105
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: always connect that with hunting, and so and lots of hunters,

1106
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: I know, including the guy who owns his previous you know,

1107
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: he and his wife that at the time, I think

1108
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 1: they owned one car between them and it's the previous

1109
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 1: And he cares a lot about environmental conservation and you

1110
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 1: know he he's he's a professional Forrester and worked with

1111
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 1: you know, the Audubon Society and you know, lots of

1112
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 1: conservation work. Um, and he's a hunter. Got to be

1113
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 1: able to see these these sorts of sorts of overlaps

1114
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: in our values and what we're concerned about. Maybe how

1115
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 1: our image of ourselves and our image of the other

1116
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 1: getting the way sometimes, So how do we do a

1117
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:25,080
Speaker 1: better job of that? And that being I guess, how

1118
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 1: do we do a better job of communicating and representing

1119
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 1: ourselves so that those types of connections can have can happen, um,

1120
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 1: Because I think especially today in the world of social media,

1121
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: where messages or imagery can can go out into the

1122
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 1: world and then it can be shared to far reaching

1123
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 1: parts of society that that don't have any context around it.

1124
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 1: There's a lot of examples where things kind of get

1125
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, things get kind of crazy. How how

1126
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: do we get better at r PR, How do we

1127
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: get better at handling and aiding an atmosphere where these

1128
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 1: types of positive connections can happen and not negative mm hmm.

1129
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: I think there are a number of parts to that,

1130
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:23,400
Speaker 1: and one of them is developing an understanding of what

1131
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:31,480
Speaker 1: that thing, whether it's a picture or you know, uh,

1132
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 1: a phrase, you know, language, images, whatever it is, how

1133
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 1: is that likely to be perceived by folks who aren't

1134
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 1: who who are who don't have context for it or

1135
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: don't have that experience. Um. And I find that on

1136
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 1: both sides. Again, I'm using the two side language, which

1137
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:58,640
Speaker 1: probably bad. Um. But people in both the sort of

1138
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 1: the the extreme amps will often and this is not

1139
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:09,719
Speaker 1: just honey and you know, not hunting, but any any

1140
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 1: sort of issue of our whole world. Yeah, exactly, we

1141
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: sort of we're getting a little bubbles and we just

1142
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 1: dig in and we're like, look, this is who I am,

1143
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 1: this is what I believe. Take it or leave it,

1144
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 1: you know. And so hunters and you know, any number

1145
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:32,800
Speaker 1: of people can can do that. And we just keep

1146
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 1: saying and doing and displaying the same stuff. And we

1147
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 1: don't want often to question it. We don't want to

1148
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 1: really know. We don't you know, we even say, you know,

1149
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 1: I don't give it how that person feels, let them

1150
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 1: be upset. You know, I'm just gonna do it louder

1151
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,720
Speaker 1: and exactly, you know, And I get where that impulse

1152
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: comes from. I mean, I feel that way sometimes. But hmm,

1153
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:05,040
Speaker 1: if we're thinking about this strategically, and we're thinking about

1154
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: the long haul, as you say, you know, we are

1155
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 1: an extreme minority as hunters, you know, and in a

1156
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 1: democracy where votes determined policy. In the long run, you know,

1157
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 1: you can't have five or of the population just given that,

1158
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 1: you know, having that screw amattitude, and I think that

1159
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 1: they're going to continue to be you know, applauded or

1160
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 1: even tolerated, It's just not going to happen in the

1161
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 1: long run. So if we just think about, um, whether

1162
01:10:41,479 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: it's the sorts of pictures that we use, or even

1163
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 1: even the language that that we use. And I'm not

1164
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 1: saying we should like totally censor ourselves and not use

1165
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:00,400
Speaker 1: the sorts of language that we're accustomed to up grew

1166
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:05,599
Speaker 1: up with, but we need to at least be aware

1167
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 1: of the impact that I can have and make an

1168
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:12,680
Speaker 1: effort to sort of translate it for people. You know,

1169
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 1: if I here's the context of this, here's what you

1170
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:21,480
Speaker 1: know this means in my community, and I can understand

1171
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: how it might not make sense or might be offensive

1172
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: in your community. Let's talk about that. You know, here's

1173
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 1: what this image meant to me or or means to

1174
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 1: my people. You know, And I don't understand what you're saying.

1175
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 1: You keep using this, you know, this word, and I

1176
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 1: think it means this, and that really ticks me off.

1177
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 1: But what do you mean? You know, I mean, just

1178
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 1: finding ways to have that kind of conversation about about

1179
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 1: how we're you know, communicating, instead of falling prey to

1180
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:04,719
Speaker 1: the temptation to just jump into that sort of fight

1181
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 1: or flight mode. You know, I feel we're under assault

1182
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: as hunters were defensive were. I mean, that's a certain mindset.

1183
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 1: But rather than just falling into we're going to fight

1184
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:24,439
Speaker 1: the good fight, realize that there are probably a bunch

1185
01:12:24,439 --> 01:12:31,719
Speaker 1: of people who on this quote other side are also

1186
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 1: falling prey to that temptation to fly off the handle

1187
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:39,640
Speaker 1: and just dig in and get angry and you know,

1188
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:46,720
Speaker 1: and blame us for being you know, barbarians. Um. And

1189
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 1: if if there's some on that side and some on

1190
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:55,519
Speaker 1: this side who can resist that temptation and walk into

1191
01:12:56,439 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 1: you know, the admittedly pretty uncomfortable territory of saying, you know,

1192
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 1: maybe my view isn't the whole truth. Maybe there are

1193
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 1: other perspectives out there that you know, have some degree

1194
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 1: of validity to them, and maybe we could find out

1195
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:24,960
Speaker 1: more about each other. You know, it's uncomfortable, it's and

1196
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 1: it can be really you know three perfectly honest. It

1197
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 1: can be really disorienting when you start to realize that,

1198
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this view that I thought was just

1199
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 1: like horrible. You know, I still don't agree with it,

1200
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 1: but it kind of makes sense now that I understand it. Right,

1201
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 1: that's goods orient and confusing, and to your point, you

1202
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:48,560
Speaker 1: might not necessarily agree with them, but at least understanding

1203
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:53,599
Speaker 1: the the background or understanding the rationale for that can

1204
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:55,760
Speaker 1: can still help us better work together or at least

1205
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: understand each other a little bit more, even if we

1206
01:13:57,439 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 1: still vehemently disagree with each other. Um That in itself,

1207
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 1: I think is a step that can make a big difference. Yeah, absolutely,

1208
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:07,559
Speaker 1: And whether that's to the future of hunting or you know,

1209
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:10,719
Speaker 1: while less conservation more broadly, or any number of other things,

1210
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,519
Speaker 1: it can make a huge difference. Just having that some

1211
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: of that sort of bipartisanship speaking of you touched on language.

1212
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 1: You talked about how one of the things we can

1213
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:21,439
Speaker 1: focus on how we talk about things, and it just

1214
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: made me think of a question, uh that I get sometimes,

1215
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:29,760
Speaker 1: and that is how to what word to use when

1216
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 1: describing what we do when we either kill or harvest

1217
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 1: an animal. I've I've used both the different times, and

1218
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 1: I've had people. I've had people criticize me. Yeah, they'll

1219
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: tell me, why would you say you're harvesting an animal?

1220
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 1: That's disrespectful to the animal because you're treating it just

1221
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: like you're referring to it almost like a crop um

1222
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 1: Or you have people who say, why would you say

1223
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 1: that's the criticism of harvest, and the criticism if I

1224
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:56,759
Speaker 1: say I killed the deer, they said, Oh, you shouldn't

1225
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:59,599
Speaker 1: use the word kill. That's too harsh. You're gonna set

1226
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,840
Speaker 1: people or people will um. You know, I don't know.

1227
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:06,959
Speaker 1: You can't win with either one. I tend, I personally

1228
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 1: tend to use the word kill, not because it's some

1229
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 1: type of vicious term, simply because it is the reality

1230
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 1: of what we're doing. And I'm um, it's it's what's

1231
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:18,920
Speaker 1: happening here, and I'm going to take that responsibility. But

1232
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 1: that's just me. I don't have anything against anyone for

1233
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 1: using either or what are your thoughts though from from

1234
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 1: your unique perspective, having been on, you know, being outside

1235
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: out the hunting community at one point and now inside

1236
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 1: of it, how what are your views on those two

1237
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 1: words and how we refer to what we're doing. I

1238
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:42,520
Speaker 1: don't tend to use harvest either. UM. I find it

1239
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:46,600
Speaker 1: feels a little weird, and it does feel like I'm

1240
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:49,679
Speaker 1: talking about the animal like a crop. I get sort

1241
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:54,519
Speaker 1: of the why it's used and how deeply embedded is

1242
01:15:54,720 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: in state and other wildlife management professions and institutions UM,

1243
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 1: and in the hunting community more broadly. So I get

1244
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 1: it UM. And some people really use it in a

1245
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 1: very mindful way and they're thinking about what what harvest

1246
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,599
Speaker 1: really means. And you know, so I've sort of gotten

1247
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 1: more accustomed to it, but I still don't use it UM.

1248
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 1: I would rather use something that seems more, as you say,

1249
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 1: sort of more honest about this is what's happening, what

1250
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 1: we're doing. UM. You know, I personally often use the

1251
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:45,560
Speaker 1: word take UM, which I used take and kill typically UM.

1252
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 1: Take is not as sort of direct as kill UM.

1253
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 1: But sometimes all I'll use that sort of as a

1254
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 1: middle ground where it's it's not you know, not not

1255
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 1: a crop, not a crop word you know? Is there

1256
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:09,639
Speaker 1: is there validity to that? Um? That criticism of talking

1257
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 1: about killing an animal as a as a former vegan

1258
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 1: and vegetarian who probably had some anti hunting views, when

1259
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 1: you heard someone say I'm killing a deer. I killed

1260
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: a deer, did that even turn you off even more? Um?

1261
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 1: And I asked that, because now, if we're thinking about

1262
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 1: how can we better communicate to non hunters, how should

1263
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:32,720
Speaker 1: we be talking about this? Does that even matter? Um?

1264
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:37,080
Speaker 1: I don't know that that particular language, you know, matters

1265
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:41,639
Speaker 1: a whole lot. But I don't thank you. From my

1266
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:46,639
Speaker 1: memory and my perspective, I don't think that someone using

1267
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:54,799
Speaker 1: the word kill was any more upsetting. I mean, if anything,

1268
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,640
Speaker 1: it felt like sometimes it felt like harvest was kind

1269
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: of euphemism, like you're kind to pretend you're not killing,

1270
01:18:02,479 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 1: Like come on, you know, don't don't hide behind that

1271
01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 1: word you're killing something. Uh. So I don't think that

1272
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:14,839
Speaker 1: I don't think that using the word kills a problem

1273
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 1: for the non hunting public, that they know what you're doing,

1274
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 1: getting can't hide that. Yeah, So, so we can improve

1275
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:26,680
Speaker 1: how we talk about hunting a little bit. We can

1276
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:29,960
Speaker 1: try to represent ourselves in a in a more positive,

1277
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 1: respectful light to make sure from the outside looking in,

1278
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:36,719
Speaker 1: what we're doing, you know, is is a positive thing. Um,

1279
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: But how do we go about introducing new people to

1280
01:18:40,120 --> 01:18:43,400
Speaker 1: hunting being an adult onset hunter? Is there anything you

1281
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:46,400
Speaker 1: can share, you know, either someone helped you out that

1282
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:48,200
Speaker 1: you said, yeah, this was really helpful, this helped me

1283
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 1: get into it, or anything that we can be doing

1284
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:55,599
Speaker 1: now to to better help bring people into this community. Well,

1285
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:03,160
Speaker 1: the biggest draw for most of the people who are

1286
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:08,320
Speaker 1: getting into hunting now as adults here in the US

1287
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 1: and in Canada for that matter, is food. I mean

1288
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 1: those of us who have more experienced hunting, and certainly

1289
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:22,960
Speaker 1: those of us who like you, grew up hunting. You know,

1290
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 1: you're hunting for lots of reasons, right, It's not just food,

1291
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: it's not just you know, any one thing. It's a

1292
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 1: whole mix of reasons. Right. And yet the the place

1293
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 1: that people that adults are mostly first connecting to it,

1294
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:48,120
Speaker 1: they might be you know, through a friendship or you

1295
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 1: know a relationship between boyfriend girlfriend or spouses or whatever

1296
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:54,240
Speaker 1: it might be, that kind of relation, relationship connection. But

1297
01:19:54,320 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: the thing that makes them interested at first, it's food,

1298
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 1: by and large, that's the most common thing. And so

1299
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 1: just giving people the opportunity to try venison for example,

1300
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:18,640
Speaker 1: that's been you know, well prepared and that they find delicious.

1301
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 1: You know, if you want to interest people in hunting,

1302
01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 1: you give them a chance to two see it as

1303
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:28,840
Speaker 1: a source of food and to actually try the food,

1304
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 1: you know, and that's like the the big gateway into

1305
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:39,760
Speaker 1: the interest. Um. Now there's a vast territory between interests

1306
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 1: and being a self identified hunter who can and will

1307
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:51,040
Speaker 1: go out in the woods on your own and hut um.

1308
01:20:51,120 --> 01:20:53,679
Speaker 1: And that's something that there are a lot of folks

1309
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 1: interested in right now. Um. And I've been doing some

1310
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 1: work with with a few folks on this is what

1311
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 1: are the barriers for new adults? What are the barriers

1312
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 1: or some of the obstacles for people who want to

1313
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:13,599
Speaker 1: coach them or instruct them or mentor them, and how

1314
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,599
Speaker 1: do we navigate that? You know, as long as it's

1315
01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:21,959
Speaker 1: just you know, cultural differences, political value differences, perception and stereotypes,

1316
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:23,840
Speaker 1: all the stuff we've been talking about, you know, can

1317
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 1: come up. Uh, but having someone to turn to, not

1318
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 1: necessarily going to take you out hunting every season or

1319
01:21:35,479 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, anything like that, but just someone who knows

1320
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:46,760
Speaker 1: the basics, um and can give you advice, you know,

1321
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 1: someone to turn to anything from well how do I

1322
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:59,160
Speaker 1: pick out an appropriate rifle or you know, what is

1323
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 1: what do I look for in a good hunting spot

1324
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:08,280
Speaker 1: or any anything? Just having someone like for me, with

1325
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 1: my uncle, I could email him. I only see him

1326
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:13,559
Speaker 1: like once or twice a year because we lived five

1327
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 1: hours apart, but I could email him, and I did mercilessly.

1328
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 1: And I had just had so many questions because you

1329
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:27,280
Speaker 1: said you were you know, in the field at three

1330
01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:32,960
Speaker 1: or four, Right, you learned stuff when you were a

1331
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 1: kid that you don't even remember learning. There's I mean,

1332
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 1: you're just steeped in it. And by the time you

1333
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 1: were fifteen, you probably know more, knew more about hunting

1334
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:49,000
Speaker 1: than I know now, you know. I mean, it's just

1335
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:56,480
Speaker 1: a fact. You just absorb that from your experiences, from family, friends,

1336
01:22:56,520 --> 01:22:59,800
Speaker 1: just you know, you know so much. And so those

1337
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 1: of us who come to it in our twenties, thirties, forties,

1338
01:23:03,960 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 1: we don't know any of that, and we're starting. You know,

1339
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:13,240
Speaker 1: we don't know the lingo, we don't know what deer

1340
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 1: sign even looks like in the woods. I mean, we

1341
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: don't know anything. Um. And so just being a resource

1342
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 1: someone who's you know, willing to be asked, you know,

1343
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: just not like like not give become this person's with

1344
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 1: some buddy and go out and mention them every day

1345
01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 1: of the season or something crazy, but just being a

1346
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: support and encouragement and a resource for them, whether it's

1347
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 1: technical information or you know, if if they're struggling, if

1348
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 1: they've wounded an animal, God forbid, you know, and there's

1349
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 1: gonna be you know times in any any new hunter's

1350
01:23:56,800 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 1: career of becoming an hunter that they're gonna have doubts

1351
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 1: about something um and having you know, someone who can

1352
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:06,560
Speaker 1: just listen to them and not not try to fix it,

1353
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 1: not trying to tell them you know, how they should feel,

1354
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 1: but just you know, you've probably been somewhere similar. Even

1355
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:15,120
Speaker 1: if you didn't have the same kind of doubts they had,

1356
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:17,120
Speaker 1: you know you've been in a similar situation and at

1357
01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:19,639
Speaker 1: least you have some inkling of what they're struggling with.

1358
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:25,599
Speaker 1: And they gotta talk to a hunter. So it's it's

1359
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:30,720
Speaker 1: so true, and it's it's easy. UM. I think sometimes

1360
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:34,439
Speaker 1: I fall into this and I found myself. UM, you

1361
01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:38,519
Speaker 1: fall into especially if you're someone who's so um Like

1362
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:41,360
Speaker 1: for me, I'm a self identified hunter, and it really

1363
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:43,599
Speaker 1: is like my life. My entire life kind of revolves

1364
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:45,880
Speaker 1: around the things I do from a hunting perspective, and

1365
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:47,719
Speaker 1: I can get so caught up in all the different

1366
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:50,639
Speaker 1: things I'm doing, the places I'm going to, the projects

1367
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:52,719
Speaker 1: i'm working on, the time I'm spending in the field.

1368
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:56,519
Speaker 1: It becomes really easy to become really selfish. Unfortunately, and

1369
01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the season goes by and you're like, wow,

1370
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:00,439
Speaker 1: I didn't take out anyone else hunting, or I didn't

1371
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:03,400
Speaker 1: help anyone else out. Um. It's easy to fall into that,

1372
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:05,920
Speaker 1: and I think it's something that at least me personally,

1373
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:08,639
Speaker 1: I'm trying to find ways to to get better about

1374
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:12,479
Speaker 1: that and to just somehow UM keep myself reminded of

1375
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 1: the fact that that it's important to reach out to

1376
01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:17,599
Speaker 1: new people. It's important to offer that mentorship if you can,

1377
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: to to take a day and take someone else out. UM.

1378
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 1: Like you said, you don't need to commit to taking

1379
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:26,040
Speaker 1: someone out everything single time you're going hunting. Um. But

1380
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:29,680
Speaker 1: I think if we can all help you know, one

1381
01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:31,680
Speaker 1: person out once a year or something, or as a

1382
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:34,040
Speaker 1: starting point at least, I'm going to try to find

1383
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:36,360
Speaker 1: ways like that to do this and start making some

1384
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 1: kind of impact, um because if not, it's really easy

1385
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: for us to get obsessed with our own thing and

1386
01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 1: forget about the bigger picture, which I think is uh,

1387
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:45,920
Speaker 1: which is a dangerous thing for the future of of

1388
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:52,040
Speaker 1: our lifestyle. Sure. And the other reason why doing that

1389
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 1: matters so much just getting some of these folks helping

1390
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:01,360
Speaker 1: them find a path in to hunting if they want

1391
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:09,640
Speaker 1: to explore it is because they become your best ambassadors.

1392
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:12,960
Speaker 1: They might be. They might be the only hunter in

1393
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:16,080
Speaker 1: their family, or the only hunter in their workplace or

1394
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:19,400
Speaker 1: their circle of friends or whatever it is. And even

1395
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:23,720
Speaker 1: if they only hunt for five years, even if they

1396
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:27,800
Speaker 1: decide not to continue and become a lifelong hunter, they

1397
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:32,840
Speaker 1: have hunted. They are gonna be talking about hunting to

1398
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:36,960
Speaker 1: some degree. They're going to have a perspective on hunting

1399
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 1: and what it means and who hunters are that is

1400
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:45,599
Speaker 1: totally different from the stereotypes that circulate around them. And

1401
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 1: so there they can be the translators. You don't have

1402
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:54,599
Speaker 1: to like like just like talk about hunting differently and

1403
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:58,960
Speaker 1: just do different you know, take or show different pictures

1404
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:01,600
Speaker 1: related to hunting. I mean, not that's all great, but

1405
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:06,719
Speaker 1: if you introduce one person to hunting, they're the ones

1406
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:10,080
Speaker 1: who can help build that bridge. Yeah, there's a there's

1407
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:13,840
Speaker 1: a significant ripple effect, absolutely, and so for the rest

1408
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 1: of their life they are likely to have that that

1409
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 1: kind of ripple effect out among people, even if they

1410
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:27,400
Speaker 1: don't keep hunting. Yeah, and either they don't keep buying

1411
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 1: a license and contributing to the agency through that particular

1412
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:36,639
Speaker 1: funding mechanism. Yeah, that's that's an important thing to remember.

1413
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:40,360
Speaker 1: It's it's it's a long term type of impact you

1414
01:27:40,360 --> 01:27:43,360
Speaker 1: can have just with that perspective that can be shared

1415
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:45,040
Speaker 1: with one other person who could be shared with one

1416
01:27:45,040 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 1: other person who then shares that with two other people,

1417
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:50,519
Speaker 1: and that that could be the salvation of what we're

1418
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 1: trying to do here and then in the long run, Um, yeah,

1419
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:54,599
Speaker 1: I mean I see, I see that happening a lot

1420
01:27:54,720 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 1: right now with you know, with like folks who are

1421
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:02,599
Speaker 1: involved with uh, you know, just getting in a hunting

1422
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:05,200
Speaker 1: particularly folks who are involved with the back country hunters

1423
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:09,000
Speaker 1: and anglers. You know, it's it's bridging this gap between

1424
01:28:09,400 --> 01:28:15,880
Speaker 1: the environmental community and the hunting community. And they're folks

1425
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:20,320
Speaker 1: who I know, who are you know? Adult hunters only

1426
01:28:20,320 --> 01:28:23,320
Speaker 1: been hunting for a handful of years, but they believe

1427
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:25,680
Speaker 1: in what you know that organization is doing, or just

1428
01:28:25,840 --> 01:28:30,240
Speaker 1: they're involved other sorts of conservation work and they are

1429
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:33,560
Speaker 1: the only hunter or one of the first hunters and

1430
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:37,760
Speaker 1: their circles of friends and family and people are like, wow,

1431
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:43,080
Speaker 1: you hunt, and it just changes the conversation. Yeah. So

1432
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 1: so speaking of adult onset hunters, one of the one

1433
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:50,320
Speaker 1: of the biggest challenges and surveys have shown this and

1434
01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:53,519
Speaker 1: I think anecdotally a lot of us can relate to this.

1435
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:56,200
Speaker 1: One of the greatest challenges for all hunters, let alone

1436
01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 1: new hunters, is finding somewhere to hunt. If you don't

1437
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:02,760
Speaker 1: live next to some giant public land or if you

1438
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:04,920
Speaker 1: don't own ground, it can be really hard to find

1439
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:06,800
Speaker 1: places to hunt in a lot of parts of the country,

1440
01:29:06,920 --> 01:29:09,599
Speaker 1: which is why I personally thinking a lot of people

1441
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:15,120
Speaker 1: think that having public lands, having healthy and accessible public lands,

1442
01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:18,360
Speaker 1: is so important. Um and I've seen that you are

1443
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 1: on the board of directors for or you on the

1444
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:23,080
Speaker 1: board for the New England Chapter of back Country Hunters

1445
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:25,240
Speaker 1: and Anglers. I'm on the board for the Michigan Chapter

1446
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:28,479
Speaker 1: of back Country Hunters and Anglers. UM. I'm pretty passionate

1447
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:31,639
Speaker 1: about this as well. But why why are you involved

1448
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:43,240
Speaker 1: the organization? I mean, largely because of that gap bridging

1449
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 1: that I see them doing. You know, they're willing to

1450
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:48,840
Speaker 1: take on stuff and especially public lands issues, but but

1451
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:52,120
Speaker 1: other issues as well that help and then do it

1452
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:56,320
Speaker 1: in a way that helps bridge the gap between the

1453
01:29:57,439 --> 01:30:01,920
Speaker 1: pretty broad range of different cons of Asian groups UM

1454
01:30:02,040 --> 01:30:09,800
Speaker 1: and perspectives UM. As far as access, I mean in

1455
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:15,000
Speaker 1: certain parts, certainly of New England, UM, Massachusetts and Connecticut

1456
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:18,639
Speaker 1: come to mind, it's an issue. It's a serious issue.

1457
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:25,320
Speaker 1: And development. I mean, partly it's lack of public lands, UM,

1458
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:28,599
Speaker 1: because we don't have nearly as much public lands as

1459
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:32,760
Speaker 1: are out in the West. But it's also just the

1460
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:37,200
Speaker 1: rate of development. I mean, what's happened in Massachusetts, Western

1461
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 1: Massachusetts over the past you know, twenty years, thirty years, phenomenal.

1462
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:49,559
Speaker 1: They're losing forest land and other wilife had it had

1463
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 1: an incredible rates because people are building houses and strip

1464
01:30:52,080 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 1: malls or whatever else. UM. So I think having a

1465
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 1: an active hunting conservation voice like b h A, where

1466
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's we're speaking the language of access, public land, wildlife,

1467
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:27,320
Speaker 1: habitat all this UM in a way that isn't ostracizing

1468
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:35,839
Speaker 1: but actually is encouraging really good partnerships with other conservation groups.

1469
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:39,960
Speaker 1: And so I think that folks like v h A,

1470
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 1: Proud Limited and a few others are doing that in

1471
01:31:45,120 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 1: a really constructive way, UM and not doing it in

1472
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:52,760
Speaker 1: a highly sort of partisan way where it's you know,

1473
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:58,080
Speaker 1: just about hunting or just about one thing, but public

1474
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:02,679
Speaker 1: lands and access and and while it habitat and places

1475
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:06,280
Speaker 1: where you can go and get some quiet. So those

1476
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 1: are commonly held values. And this goes back to what

1477
01:32:10,160 --> 01:32:11,639
Speaker 1: you said at the beginning. You know, this is there's

1478
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:15,439
Speaker 1: something that Teddy Roosevelt and John Leir could agree on

1479
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 1: despite their disagreement on hunting. Yeah. I agree, And I

1480
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 1: think that to your point there, the message of groups

1481
01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:28,360
Speaker 1: like b h A, it really resonates with with me,

1482
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:29,760
Speaker 1: and I think it can resonate with a lot of

1483
01:32:29,760 --> 01:32:32,000
Speaker 1: other people too because of that fact. It's it's very

1484
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 1: um m hmmm. I don't know, all inclusive in in

1485
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:39,000
Speaker 1: a way, and it also speaks to some of our

1486
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:40,960
Speaker 1: core central tenants of what we care about. So we

1487
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:45,000
Speaker 1: talked earlier about how there's a lot of positive things

1488
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:48,040
Speaker 1: that can come out of the hunting community working with

1489
01:32:48,600 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 1: the non hunting conservation community, and I think we do have.

1490
01:32:52,439 --> 01:32:55,040
Speaker 1: In some cases, there are significant differences, like some people

1491
01:32:55,479 --> 01:32:57,760
Speaker 1: within that community are not okay with the idea of

1492
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:00,639
Speaker 1: killing animals. Of course that's something we do, so there's

1493
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:05,240
Speaker 1: a significant difference there. But what we do all care about.

1494
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:08,240
Speaker 1: We do care about healthy landscapes, We do care about

1495
01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:11,719
Speaker 1: clean water. We do care about access to wildlife habitat

1496
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:14,479
Speaker 1: and healthy populations of wildlife and having the opportunities to

1497
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,320
Speaker 1: do those things. So I think I think the more

1498
01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:23,000
Speaker 1: the hunting and fishing conservation organizations can focus on those aspects,

1499
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:25,640
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna have more opportunities for collaborations. So

1500
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:27,880
Speaker 1: that's that's why I personally been excited about b h

1501
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:32,600
Speaker 1: A or organizations like the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership that

1502
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:35,479
Speaker 1: really work on this this inclusive approach, like let's bring

1503
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:39,640
Speaker 1: people together rather than pointing out, well, we don't we

1504
01:33:39,680 --> 01:33:41,400
Speaker 1: disagree on this one thing, So we were never going

1505
01:33:41,439 --> 01:33:43,720
Speaker 1: to talk to you or work with you, or you know,

1506
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:46,640
Speaker 1: attack some other group because they did work with a

1507
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:49,760
Speaker 1: group that has some opposing views. Um As if that's

1508
01:33:49,760 --> 01:33:51,680
Speaker 1: a bad thing, that we can work with people have

1509
01:33:51,720 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 1: different views sometimes. Um, I think that's actually a good thing.

1510
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,080
Speaker 1: I think it's a good idea that we find ways

1511
01:33:57,120 --> 01:34:00,479
Speaker 1: to to bridge those gaps, to find commonality, to work

1512
01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:04,040
Speaker 1: towards shared goals. Um. If we want to keep doing

1513
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:06,960
Speaker 1: what we're doing and be able to live this hunting lifestyle,

1514
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:09,439
Speaker 1: to be able to hunt and fish and have places

1515
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:12,760
Speaker 1: to do that and have healthy wildlife and have you know,

1516
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:15,840
Speaker 1: some trees and some rivers and some wild places to

1517
01:34:15,880 --> 01:34:17,920
Speaker 1: get into, we're going to have to do those things

1518
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:21,880
Speaker 1: moving forward because they're just there's so many pressures on

1519
01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:25,280
Speaker 1: this way of life in these places that could change

1520
01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 1: that if we aren't standing up for him. Yeah, and

1521
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:34,759
Speaker 1: and having as many people unified standing up for those

1522
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 1: things as we can. But I think I think it's

1523
01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:42,120
Speaker 1: it's really important if we start saying, well, if we

1524
01:34:42,160 --> 01:34:45,200
Speaker 1: find one thing we disagree on, we're not gonna never

1525
01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:49,480
Speaker 1: talk to each other again. You know that's crazy. Yeah,

1526
01:34:49,520 --> 01:34:50,800
Speaker 1: I mean, if I had to habit. We kind of

1527
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,120
Speaker 1: do that often. If if you aren't, if you don't

1528
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:55,599
Speaker 1: match me perfectly and agree with me on everything, then

1529
01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:59,479
Speaker 1: you're my enemy, you know. And it's sadly, you know,

1530
01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:01,439
Speaker 1: it's it's a common sort of thing to do. But

1531
01:35:02,200 --> 01:35:04,840
Speaker 1: you know, if you and I, the two of us

1532
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:11,040
Speaker 1: talk long enough, we'll find something we disagree on. It's

1533
01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:15,559
Speaker 1: just it's not practical, Like I'm just when it comes

1534
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:17,960
Speaker 1: to these different things, like you can get emotional about things,

1535
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:20,759
Speaker 1: and you can get you know, revved up about something,

1536
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:22,760
Speaker 1: or you can get upset about something, or you can

1537
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:25,679
Speaker 1: really not like an idea. Um. But when it comes

1538
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:27,519
Speaker 1: right down to it, if I have a set of goals,

1539
01:35:28,160 --> 01:35:31,240
Speaker 1: and if the most practical, pragmatic way to achieve those

1540
01:35:31,280 --> 01:35:35,360
Speaker 1: goals is to make compromise occasionally, or to agree to disagree,

1541
01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:38,000
Speaker 1: or to you know, say all right, well, you know

1542
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily like everything about you, but hey, we've

1543
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:43,760
Speaker 1: got this thing in common. Let's work towards this shared thing.

1544
01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:48,639
Speaker 1: It's just simply the reality of life. If you if

1545
01:35:48,680 --> 01:35:50,320
Speaker 1: you want to get things done, if you want to

1546
01:35:50,360 --> 01:35:53,559
Speaker 1: achieve goals, you're gonna have to take things from a

1547
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:58,320
Speaker 1: pragmatic standpoint and not just that emotional, emotionally charged UM

1548
01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:01,479
Speaker 1: kind of way of a approaching issues these days that

1549
01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:04,559
Speaker 1: I think is just causing a lot of crazy things

1550
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:09,800
Speaker 1: we see happening these days. I think that we've covered

1551
01:36:09,800 --> 01:36:13,120
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting stuff here, um, and I always

1552
01:36:13,120 --> 01:36:15,000
Speaker 1: like to talk about we are I said this to

1553
01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 1: you earlier, and I also mentioned on the show sometimes

1554
01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:19,680
Speaker 1: we always got like to mix in our vegetables and

1555
01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 1: our candy. And today we've been talking a lot about

1556
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:25,160
Speaker 1: these issues that sometimes aren't fun to talk about or

1557
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:28,600
Speaker 1: to hear about. You know, these are the things that sometimes, um,

1558
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:30,759
Speaker 1: we'd like to be talking about a great hunting story

1559
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:33,960
Speaker 1: or some great adventure or ideas for how to you know,

1560
01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:37,200
Speaker 1: have a more successful hunt. Um, that's a lot of

1561
01:36:37,240 --> 01:36:39,120
Speaker 1: fun to do. But in the long run, if we

1562
01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:41,000
Speaker 1: want to be able to have those conversations, we need

1563
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:43,400
Speaker 1: to get into this nitty gritty stuff every once in

1564
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:46,080
Speaker 1: a while, and uh till far. I think you're your

1565
01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:48,879
Speaker 1: insight and your experience and kind of your background uniquely

1566
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:54,160
Speaker 1: I think helps you share this this perspective that I

1567
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 1: think is a really good one for people in the

1568
01:36:56,000 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 1: hunting community here. So I appreciate you doing that, Tobar,

1569
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:03,040
Speaker 1: and I want to ask you one last question if people,

1570
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:06,840
Speaker 1: If people want to learn more about your perspectives and

1571
01:37:06,880 --> 01:37:09,960
Speaker 1: ideas and some of your messages for this community, where

1572
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:12,559
Speaker 1: can they find that stuff online either or or your book?

1573
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:14,240
Speaker 1: Where can they find these things from you too? Our

1574
01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 1: my website easy to find, just my name Tobar Ceruti

1575
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:22,920
Speaker 1: tech of a thing to spell t O v A

1576
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:26,639
Speaker 1: r C E r U l l I dot com.

1577
01:37:26,680 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 1: But just the mindful carnivore will uh certainly get you

1578
01:37:30,280 --> 01:37:35,320
Speaker 1: too to my my website, as well as to any

1579
01:37:35,360 --> 01:37:38,519
Speaker 1: number of places you know, Amazon or your local bookstore

1580
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:42,479
Speaker 1: or whatever where you could could get the book if

1581
01:37:42,479 --> 01:37:47,040
Speaker 1: you're curious. Awesome. Well, I, like I said earlier, highly recommended.

1582
01:37:47,120 --> 01:37:49,400
Speaker 1: I enjoyed reading it, read it a handful of years ago,

1583
01:37:49,560 --> 01:37:51,920
Speaker 1: and it's been one that's I've pointed people towards for

1584
01:37:51,960 --> 01:37:54,519
Speaker 1: a long time now. So if you haven't read it yet,

1585
01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:58,880
Speaker 1: give it a look. Interesting read and Tobar, thank you

1586
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:01,000
Speaker 1: again for for taking some time here and chatting with us.

1587
01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:04,360
Speaker 1: This has been really interesting and I really enjoyed it. Hey,

1588
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:07,000
Speaker 1: thanks for having me Mark. And that's a wrap, folks,

1589
01:38:07,040 --> 01:38:10,760
Speaker 1: But a couple of quick reminders. Number one, if you

1590
01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:13,519
Speaker 1: haven't left us a rating on iTunes, it takes like

1591
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:16,799
Speaker 1: twenty seconds. It's a huge help to the wire Hunt podcast,

1592
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:20,160
Speaker 1: so please do that if you can. Number two, go

1593
01:38:20,240 --> 01:38:22,479
Speaker 1: head on over to the wired to Hunt YouTube channel.

1594
01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:24,679
Speaker 1: I've mentioned this a little bit over the past few weeks,

1595
01:38:24,680 --> 01:38:26,720
Speaker 1: but I'm posting a lot more videos than I used

1596
01:38:26,760 --> 01:38:30,040
Speaker 1: to try and do a minimum of a weekly video

1597
01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:33,200
Speaker 1: kind of documenting all the things going on in my

1598
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:35,960
Speaker 1: life related to hunting right now. So be sure to

1599
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:39,200
Speaker 1: check out the wired hunt YouTube channel and otherwise, just

1600
01:38:39,240 --> 01:38:41,200
Speaker 1: want to thank our partners who helped make all of

1601
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:43,880
Speaker 1: this possible. So big things to sit a gear Yetie

1602
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:47,479
Speaker 1: Cooler's Matthews Archery, maybe an Optics, the white Tail Institute

1603
01:38:47,520 --> 01:38:51,360
Speaker 1: of North America, Trophy Ridge and hunt Maps, And finally,

1604
01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:54,000
Speaker 1: thanks for being here with us, thanks for tuning in,

1605
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:57,479
Speaker 1: thank you for your attention and your support, and until

1606
01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:00,880
Speaker 1: next time, stay wired Ton