WEBVTT - Listen better, with Ximena Vengoechea

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,

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<v Speaker 1>This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's

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<v Speaker 1>episode is going to be a slightly longer one part

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<v Speaker 1>of the series where I interview fascinating people about how

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<v Speaker 1>they take their days from great to awesome and any

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<v Speaker 1>advice they have for the rest of us. So today,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm delighted to welcome him in a Vingoica to Before Breakfast.

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<v Speaker 1>She is the author of several books, including Listen Like

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<v Speaker 1>You Mean It, Rest Easy, and The Life Audit, a

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<v Speaker 1>step by stead guide to discovering your goals and building

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<v Speaker 1>the life you want. So him in and welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so excited to have you on. Why don't you

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<v Speaker 1>tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so, I'm a user researcher, which we can get

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<v Speaker 2>into a little bit, but it informs a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the writing that I do. So I've worked at several

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<v Speaker 2>big tech companies, and I write and I illustrate rate

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<v Speaker 2>have several nonfiction books, and I'm actually also working on

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<v Speaker 2>some novels.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh wonderful. I'm so excited about that and can't wait

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<v Speaker 1>to read it, so tell us, yeah about user experience

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<v Speaker 1>and what this means for people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so a user researcher, I like to think of

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<v Speaker 2>it as one of the more people friendly roles in tech.

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<v Speaker 2>So essentially where they're to translate what do people really need?

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<v Speaker 2>What are users really need from the products that we're building,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're kind of a voice for the people. So

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<v Speaker 2>rather than have someone say like, hey, I have this

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<v Speaker 2>great design idea, let's just build it, the user researcher

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<v Speaker 2>is really the intermediary to say, like, let's actually go

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<v Speaker 2>talk to some people, see what they need, see how

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<v Speaker 2>this fits into their world or doesn't make sure it's usable,

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<v Speaker 2>beautifully designed, but also easy to use and actually functional.

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<v Speaker 2>So it involves a lot of surveys but also one

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<v Speaker 2>on one interviews, moderating group workshops, that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because it feels like a lot of tech may

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<v Speaker 1>have a great thing it's supposed to do, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>very hard for the user to understand it.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean do you counter that a lot?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I mean basically the goal is to not have

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<v Speaker 2>you be on a page and be confused or get stuck,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, not be able to find a button, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>at a very micro level, and then I think at

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<v Speaker 2>the macro level, it's really saying, you know, this is

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<v Speaker 2>something that should bring something to your life, something positive,

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<v Speaker 2>whether that's you know, purely functional or joyful and not

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<v Speaker 2>be you know, a pet project. Let's say that someone

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<v Speaker 2>just got really excited about but really just has no

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<v Speaker 2>purpose in somebody's life.

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<v Speaker 1>So, as part of doing this user research, you were

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<v Speaker 1>listening to a lot of people, which then you pivoted

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<v Speaker 1>to writing about that and becoming an expert on listening.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us a little bit about your book

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<v Speaker 1>on listening?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it was interesting because as a user researcher,

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<v Speaker 2>you're spending a lot of time interviewing people, having these

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<v Speaker 2>really deep conversations in a very short amount of time.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean these these could be really personal conversations about

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<v Speaker 2>things like finances, and you only get forty five minutes,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe sixty minutes to talk to someone, and so you

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<v Speaker 2>really have to build the ability to go very deep

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<v Speaker 2>very quickly. And that's not easy. You're you know, you're

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<v Speaker 2>talking to a stranger, somebody who's never met you before,

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<v Speaker 2>who maybe doesn't really understand whether even showing up to

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<v Speaker 2>this company and you know, showing up to a lab

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<v Speaker 2>it can be intimidating, and so you have to use

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of tools and techniques to instantly build rapport

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to get to those deeper questions without

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<v Speaker 2>it feeling like an interrogation or invasive. And the more

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<v Speaker 2>time I spent in the lab and was seeing, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the benefits of using these techniques in that setting, and

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<v Speaker 2>then I could kind of easily contrast that with, oh, wait,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in this meeting with my peers and everybody's talking

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<v Speaker 2>past each other, or you know, I'm having an everyday

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<v Speaker 2>conversation with my husband and we're also just like totally

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<v Speaker 2>on different wavelengths. You know, it seemed really obvious to

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<v Speaker 2>me that those techniques could be pourted over to the

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<v Speaker 2>real world, not just to you know, make conversations run

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<v Speaker 2>more smoothly, but ultimately to build better relationships, because I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's what it's really about. When you're able to

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<v Speaker 2>be a good listener, it opens so much up between

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<v Speaker 2>you and that other person. So it's really about leveraging

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<v Speaker 2>that to build better and deeper connections.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, and I know that's something a lot of people want,

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<v Speaker 1>but someone listening to this might be like, well, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I listen all the time. What am I doing wrong?

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<v Speaker 2>Like?

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<v Speaker 1>What am I doing wrong when I'm listening? That is

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<v Speaker 1>precluding these deeper connections.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I think most of us when we listen,

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<v Speaker 2>fall into what I would call service listening. So we're

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<v Speaker 2>hearing enough of what's being said to not in smile,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe there's a follow up question or two.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's not that we're totally absent of any

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<v Speaker 2>listening skills. Right, It's like, you get through your day,

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<v Speaker 2>you're not getting fired, you're being polite to the cash whatever, Right, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>all of those things are true, but they're not exactly

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<v Speaker 2>going very deep those conversations. And so what I'm proposing

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<v Speaker 2>is to shift more to what I call empathetic listening,

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<v Speaker 2>which is really about getting to a point of connection

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<v Speaker 2>with someone else where you understand where the other person

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<v Speaker 2>is coming from. And I think it's safe to say

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<v Speaker 2>that a lot of times in our everyday conversations, we're

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<v Speaker 2>not in that mode. We're not registering quite that deep. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>what are some techniques we can use? Like, if somebody's

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<v Speaker 2>listening to this and wants to try something today, what

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<v Speaker 2>could they do. I think the first thing is to

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<v Speaker 2>really go into it with what I call a listening mindset,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's three components to that. So the first is humility,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is maybe the hardest one, but it's really

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<v Speaker 2>coming in with a spirit of being open to being wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of setting your own opinion aside, not just your opinion,

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<v Speaker 2>also any preconceived notions, maybe even expertise that you have.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that can actually be really quite difficult when

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<v Speaker 2>you feel like you know a lot about a subject

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<v Speaker 2>or area, or have really strong opinions, but just setting

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<v Speaker 2>that aside and saying, Okay, actually my purpose here right

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<v Speaker 2>now is not to teach. It's too more take a

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<v Speaker 2>student role and learn from this other person. So humility

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<v Speaker 2>really coming in with that mindset is kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>first piece. And then you also want to bring in

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<v Speaker 2>a spirit of curiosity. This I think is often missing

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<v Speaker 2>from our everyday conversations. Maybe there's a topic that you

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<v Speaker 2>just you really don't find interesting. For me a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of times, it's sports, right, It's just not something that

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<v Speaker 2>makes my heart sing. So I have to work harder

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<v Speaker 2>when I'm in conversation with someone and they are a

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<v Speaker 2>sports fan. Let's say and it would be easy for

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<v Speaker 2>me to say, all right, they're talking about the super Bowl.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't really care about that, Like I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>tune out. I have to find a thread that I

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<v Speaker 2>can tag and get curious about. Okay, why is this

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<v Speaker 2>person so interested in this topic? Why are they such

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<v Speaker 2>a sports fan? Did they play sports as a kid?

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<v Speaker 2>Were their parents really into sports? What does it mean

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<v Speaker 2>that our culture is really into you know, the super Bowl?

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<v Speaker 2>Like what can I learn from this? Right? Like, there's

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<v Speaker 2>always something that I can get curious about. For me,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, my in is while I'm not interested in

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<v Speaker 2>sports per se, I do find the drama around you know,

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<v Speaker 2>coaching styles and you know how people are drafted and

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<v Speaker 2>why and all of that, Like I think that's actually

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<v Speaker 2>quite interesting. So that's kind of my in. But it's

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<v Speaker 2>figuring out, like what is your in into this topic

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<v Speaker 2>that you can stay present and stay engaged instead of

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<v Speaker 2>just saying, you know what that is not for me,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to tune out. And then the third piece

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<v Speaker 2>I think is empathy, and that's really going deeper of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, why is this person bringing this to me?

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<v Speaker 2>What is it that they're trying to get out of

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<v Speaker 2>this conversation, What is it that they experience on a

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<v Speaker 2>human level, you know, is their grief tied to this?

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<v Speaker 2>Is their joy tied to this? And it's not to

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<v Speaker 2>say that we have to have experienced the same thing.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if someone is sharing a story about a

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<v Speaker 2>layoff and you've never experienced that, that's okay, But maybe

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<v Speaker 2>you can tap into the feeling behind that, which is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, somebody is grieving this loss in their life

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<v Speaker 2>and it was unexpected and surprising, and that must be

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<v Speaker 2>really difficult. And have you ever had, you know, some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of grief that you can tap into there. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think those three components, when you're able to bring

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<v Speaker 2>them all to the four, really sent you up for

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<v Speaker 2>having a very different kind of conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>So I want to ask about that last part though.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, empathy is for sure so important and we're

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<v Speaker 1>trying to but by hooking that to something that I

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<v Speaker 1>have maybe experienced in my life, I think we might

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<v Speaker 1>accidentally fall into the trap of then being like, oh

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<v Speaker 1>me too, Yeah you got laid off, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>some other random thing that had been bad to me.

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<v Speaker 1>And I feel like that's probably not the best style

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<v Speaker 1>of listening.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think you're right. I think there's a difference though,

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<v Speaker 2>between tapping into that feeling and sitting with it and

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<v Speaker 2>bearing witness to the other person experiencing that and doing

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<v Speaker 2>what you're saying, which is I would call that identifying

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<v Speaker 2>where you go, oh, yeah, yeah, like this is exactly

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<v Speaker 2>like what I experienced, and then maybe you share about

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<v Speaker 2>that and suddenly you're talking about your experience and the

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<v Speaker 2>other person might go, wait a minute, like how did

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<v Speaker 2>we get here? Like now they're talking about the loss

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<v Speaker 2>of their dog that has nothing to do with, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the way I feel. So I do think it's important to,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, try and get to that feeling, but then

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<v Speaker 2>to also clarify, like what is actually needed in this conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>It might be obvious, it might not be. You know this.

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<v Speaker 2>This instinct to identify is one of what I call

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<v Speaker 2>a default listening mode. We all have them. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>a way of showing up in conversation. So some people

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<v Speaker 2>are instant identifiers. Other people are instant problem solvers. They

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<v Speaker 2>hear everything and they're like, ah, that's a problem to

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<v Speaker 2>be solved, like let me come up with solutions, let

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<v Speaker 2>me brainstorm with this person. Or they're a validator where

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<v Speaker 2>they just want to cheerlead, you know, and say like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you were right in that argument, like that person totally

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<v Speaker 2>didn't get it. These are all ways of showing up

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<v Speaker 2>in conversation. There's nothing wrong with them, but you do

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<v Speaker 2>have to take a step back when you're in a

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<v Speaker 2>conversation and ask yourself, Okay, my instinct is to identify,

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<v Speaker 2>to offer my my similar experience or to problem solve,

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<v Speaker 2>to offer solution. Is that actually what this person needs

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<v Speaker 2>or is it something else? And I think that is

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<v Speaker 2>kind of how you manage some of some of that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's sort of being aware of what that instinctive pull

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<v Speaker 2>is to respond and then maybe a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>a gut check or even asking like hey, like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>my instinct would be to maybe brainstorm with you, is

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<v Speaker 2>that what you're looking for and get that clarity.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, to ask, I mean sometimes you can in fact,

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<v Speaker 1>just to ask exactly. Well, we're going to take a

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<v Speaker 1>quick ad break and then we'll be back with more

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<v Speaker 1>tips on better listening. Well, I am back talking with

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<v Speaker 1>him and a vinga Cha. She is the author of

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<v Speaker 1>several books, including Listen Like You Mean It, Rest Easy,

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<v Speaker 1>and The Life Audit One of the techniques you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about in Listen like you mean it is the power

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<v Speaker 1>of silence. And I know you use this to good

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<v Speaker 1>effect in your user research interviews, trying to get people

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about what they were experiencing. How can we

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<v Speaker 1>sort of build this into everyday life.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, one of the things that silence allows

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<v Speaker 2>is for processing. It's for thinking through, and it's giving

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<v Speaker 2>space for another person to vocalize, to verbalize that. So

0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:41.440
<v Speaker 2>often our very human instinct is if a conversation goes quiet,

0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.480
<v Speaker 2>we want to rush in and fill the void because

0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.319
<v Speaker 2>it's uncomfortable. You maybe have like a little bit of

0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.680
<v Speaker 2>an inner monologue of oh God, did I say something

0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.920
<v Speaker 2>to offend this person? Or have I bored them? Or geez,

0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:55.480
<v Speaker 2>like I need to I need to come up with

0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.960
<v Speaker 2>something else to say, Like I need to be spontaneous

0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.200
<v Speaker 2>and fun. And you know, we can get in our

0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.679
<v Speaker 2>own head about these kinds of things. But sometimes silence

0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.120
<v Speaker 2>is just a way for the other person to finish

0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.560
<v Speaker 2>the thought, you know, to think it through a little

0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:13.120
<v Speaker 2>bit more, or to open up. Maybe they're building up

0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.720
<v Speaker 2>towards sharing something vulnerable that you know it was difficult

0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.960
<v Speaker 2>to say immediately, right so we want to give the

0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:26.439
<v Speaker 2>conversation breathing room. We want to give that space, and

0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.600
<v Speaker 2>that can be very hard for people. It's very hard

0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.360
<v Speaker 2>for me. So, like one of the things that you

0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.559
<v Speaker 2>can do is to just you know, if you feel

0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.240
<v Speaker 2>that silent moment encroaching and you're starting to get uncomfortable,

0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.560
<v Speaker 2>try counting to ten, you know, just see what will happen.

0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Maybe nothing happens, that's okay too. But usually when you

0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:49.319
<v Speaker 2>do give people a little bit of space, they'll they'll

0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.280
<v Speaker 2>bring something to the conversation that was maybe unexpected that

0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.479
<v Speaker 2>you didn't really know. Oh, we're going to go there, Okay, great.

0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what are some ways to show that we're engaged

0:12:59.160 --> 0:12:59.920
<v Speaker 1>in the conversation.

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, part of it

0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.760
<v Speaker 2>is physical. It's like, you know, eye contact can be

0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:12.200
<v Speaker 2>very important, you know, nodding your head along, some of

0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.000
<v Speaker 2>these natural cues that I think most of us are

0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.319
<v Speaker 2>probably doing and you don't have to think too much about.

0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.480
<v Speaker 2>But you know, if you're someone who generally avoids eye contact,

0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.080
<v Speaker 2>maybe that's something that you want to start incorporating into

0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.000
<v Speaker 2>your conversation. But some of these are also just verbal cues.

0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.559
<v Speaker 2>So it's asking good follow up questions. It's kind of

0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.960
<v Speaker 2>nudging the conversation along. It's demonstrating an interest by really

0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.360
<v Speaker 2>engaging with what they're saying. And people can tell when

0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:38.480
<v Speaker 2>you know you're asking a question for the sake of

0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:43.560
<v Speaker 2>it versus you're actually invested, because the types of questions

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 2>that you're more likely to ask are going to be

0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:47.840
<v Speaker 2>more specific, They're going to be a little bit deeper

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.240
<v Speaker 2>rather than surface level. Yeah.

0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, although with that, are there any good sort

0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.480
<v Speaker 1>of deepening questions that can kind of nudge people to

0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.160
<v Speaker 1>keep going and show that you're engaged.

0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I like to think of you know,

0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.040
<v Speaker 2>questions come in different categories. Some questions are going to

0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.440
<v Speaker 2>close a conversation and some questions are going to open

0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.520
<v Speaker 2>them up. So you want to try and avoid simply

0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.720
<v Speaker 2>close ended questions, So questions that are going to result

0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.680
<v Speaker 2>in a yes or no answer. So questions that start

0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.320
<v Speaker 2>with do are that kind of thing you want to

0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.640
<v Speaker 2>go for more open ended what how? Why is tricky

0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:28.560
<v Speaker 2>because why can sound like you're interrogating someone, so that

0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.640
<v Speaker 2>one is maybe less useful, But so thinking about how

0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.760
<v Speaker 2>you're framing questions so less you know, are you nervous

0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.880
<v Speaker 2>about that work presentation, and more, hey, how do you

0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.880
<v Speaker 2>feel about that presentation coming up? So you're not you know,

0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:48.280
<v Speaker 2>projecting onto that person and how they might be experiencing something.

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:50.840
<v Speaker 2>So I think those questions can be useful. And then

0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:54.960
<v Speaker 2>the last thing I'll say is just sometimes just when

0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.160
<v Speaker 2>you can sense that somebody also, you know, maybe there's

0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.400
<v Speaker 2>more to say and you're kind of tiptoeing around it,

0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.760
<v Speaker 2>just repeating what they've said and giving some space for

0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:10.840
<v Speaker 2>it or slightly paraphrasing it. It can be really simple like, oh,

0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:15.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, you mentioned feeling upset, and you can pause,

0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, and see what they say. Or you can

0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.480
<v Speaker 2>add a little nudge like you're feeling upset because and

0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 2>pause and again like people will kind of fill in

0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.680
<v Speaker 2>the blanks. So those are some of the ways that

0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.600
<v Speaker 2>you can deep in and show that engagement at the

0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:31.120
<v Speaker 2>same time.

0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.680
<v Speaker 1>Excellent tips. Well, I want to pivot to your more

0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 1>recent book because I definitely want listeners to check that

0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.760
<v Speaker 1>out as well. The life Audit. What on Earth is

0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:40.640
<v Speaker 1>a life audit?

0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:44.479
<v Speaker 2>Great question? Yes, So the life audit is an exercise

0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.040
<v Speaker 2>in self reflection and really getting to know yourself in

0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.680
<v Speaker 2>order to essentially architect the life that you want. So

0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.360
<v Speaker 2>it's a way of uncovering your deepest wishes, desires, goals,

0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.400
<v Speaker 2>and also your core values and essentially looking and seeing,

0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.640
<v Speaker 2>like do my core values align with the life that

0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 2>I want to live? Am I pursuing the goals, these wishes,

0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.520
<v Speaker 2>these desires. Have I set my life up in a

0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 2>way that I can see these things through? And I

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.920
<v Speaker 2>think it's it's useful for anyone who you know, wants

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 2>to take a step back and sort of reflect on

0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.720
<v Speaker 2>where they are in their journey and where they want

0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.680
<v Speaker 2>to go. And it's particularly useful if you're at some

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:31.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of crossroads, like maybe you've just graduated college, maybe

0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.400
<v Speaker 2>you've just changed jobs, or you're thinking about changing careers.

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Maybe you've just had a child and that's kind of

0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.440
<v Speaker 2>upended your world. So I think there are lots of

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.240
<v Speaker 2>moments where this can be useful, and it could also

0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.160
<v Speaker 2>just be as simple as you know, an annual sort

0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.680
<v Speaker 2>of like the new Year, you want to reflect and

0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:50.000
<v Speaker 2>see like what do I want to add of this

0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>year of my life.

0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.280
<v Speaker 1>One of the things you suggest people do is come

0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.040
<v Speaker 1>up with a hundred wishes that you're putting on post

0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 1>it notes, and you give people very limited time to

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.160
<v Speaker 1>come up with these as well. I've often suggested listeners

0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.200
<v Speaker 1>do what we call it a list of one hundred

0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.119
<v Speaker 1>dreams around here, you know, one hundred things you'd like

0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.480
<v Speaker 1>to spend more time doing in your life, or goals

0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:13.040
<v Speaker 1>that will take more time that you want to do.

0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.000
<v Speaker 1>But I've never actually forced anyone to do it in

0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 1>an hour, so I'm curious about the time limit and

0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 1>how you came up with that.

0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I think it's useful to have constraints.

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:24.560
<v Speaker 2>In the same way that it's useful to say, hey,

0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 2>aim for a hundred I think it's useful to try

0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.240
<v Speaker 2>and do it in an hour. Obviously, this is your life, audit.

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.199
<v Speaker 2>If you want to take more time, go ahead and

0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.479
<v Speaker 2>take more time. You know no one's gonna check up

0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 2>on you. But I think that that constraint, it's really

0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:44.200
<v Speaker 2>about focusing that time because many of us don't make

0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 2>the time to ask these big questions of ourselves. So honestly,

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.000
<v Speaker 2>even an hour kind of feels luxurious if you think

0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.480
<v Speaker 2>about it that way, right, But that our time frame

0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:59.399
<v Speaker 2>and using those post its, those are deliberate constraints. Like

0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 2>I suggest sticky notes and not you know, an Excel spreadsheet,

0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.880
<v Speaker 2>because then you've got a device, and then you've got notifications.

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.600
<v Speaker 2>And I suggest a sticky note with a sharpie because

0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.159
<v Speaker 2>it forces you to write less. Right, you cannot write

0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.480
<v Speaker 2>that much when you're using a sharpie on a three

0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:17.879
<v Speaker 2>by three sticky notes. It forces you to kind of

0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.239
<v Speaker 2>get to the heart of that wish or desire. So

0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.359
<v Speaker 2>all of those constraints are really intentional to help you

0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.359
<v Speaker 2>uncover these these deeper desires with the tools that you

0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:29.880
<v Speaker 2>already have.

0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.520
<v Speaker 1>And do you have a good process for once people

0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.359
<v Speaker 1>sort of brainstorm a lot of things that they would

0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.760
<v Speaker 1>like to do for giving themselves any sort of timeline

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:40.800
<v Speaker 1>for achieving these.

0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the first part of the Life Audit is

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.640
<v Speaker 2>really about uncovering those goals and then sort of doing

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.479
<v Speaker 2>an affinity mapping where you're grouping things into themes and

0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.199
<v Speaker 2>starting to see patterns and saying, wow, I have a

0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.600
<v Speaker 2>lot of goals or wishes around health or a lot

0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.000
<v Speaker 2>around career, community, whatever it may be. And then the

0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.680
<v Speaker 2>second part of the book does focus on Okay, you've

0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.440
<v Speaker 2>got all of these wishes, now how do I prioritize them?

0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.800
<v Speaker 2>And what does that look like. And I always like

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.639
<v Speaker 2>to remind people that, you know, whatever plan you come

0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:13.919
<v Speaker 2>up with, this is over the course of your life,

0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.880
<v Speaker 2>right because it can feel overwhelming to look at everything

0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:18.439
<v Speaker 2>and go, oh my god, there's so much that I

0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.359
<v Speaker 2>want to do. Where do I begin and how quickly

0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.240
<v Speaker 2>can I do these things? But it is a pretty long,

0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, timeframe we're talking about. So usually what I

0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.000
<v Speaker 2>suggest is that people start to focus on let's say,

0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.399
<v Speaker 2>three to five things they want to get done in

0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:35.879
<v Speaker 2>the near term, you know, and you can separate it

0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.280
<v Speaker 2>out from these are let's say core values. These are

0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.000
<v Speaker 2>things that I want to carry with me every day,

0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.560
<v Speaker 2>So things like I really want to be patient or generous,

0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 2>those are things that are going to live with you

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.840
<v Speaker 2>and you want to carry that every day. But then

0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:50.520
<v Speaker 2>there are also the things that maybe you want to

0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:52.920
<v Speaker 2>get done in the next six months, six to twelve months,

0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.719
<v Speaker 2>let's say. And then there are things like you know,

0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.919
<v Speaker 2>live abroad that maybe that's something that you'll do in retirement.

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Who knows, right, So at least that initial framing of

0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.639
<v Speaker 2>is it every day, is it six to twelve months out,

0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.680
<v Speaker 2>is it much further out? And then from there, once

0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:12.919
<v Speaker 2>you pick those, let's say three to five that you

0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.840
<v Speaker 2>want to work on. Then you start breaking everything down

0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.159
<v Speaker 2>into even smaller chunks. Okay, you want to live abroad

0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.720
<v Speaker 2>at some point, great, what do you have to do?

0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.000
<v Speaker 2>Like do you have to learn a language? Do you

0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.560
<v Speaker 2>want to sign up for language classes? Do you want

0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.520
<v Speaker 2>to visit that place? Plan a visit first? And so

0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.480
<v Speaker 2>then you start really getting into the nitty gritty. So

0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.280
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of like I'm motioning, nobody can see, but

0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:36.760
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of like a funnel right where you're starting

0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.400
<v Speaker 2>pretty broad and getting more and more specific because that's

0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:40.400
<v Speaker 2>what makes it actionable.

0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeap, big goals down to doable steps exactly. Well, we're

0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.080
<v Speaker 1>going to take one more quick ad break and then

0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.440
<v Speaker 1>we'll be back with a little bit more about him

0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:58.080
<v Speaker 1>INA's productivity routines. Well, I am back talking with him

0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:02.000
<v Speaker 1>and Vingoateea about her books on listening, her book on

0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.080
<v Speaker 1>the Life Audit. I want to talk about your routines.

0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.200
<v Speaker 1>I've always love to hear about what makes people more productive.

0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.480
<v Speaker 1>Do you have any particular routines that make you more productive?

0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So I always think about it as like every

0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.000
<v Speaker 2>person has their personal productivity zone, which is like a

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.080
<v Speaker 2>time of day or a place, an environment, something that

0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:24.439
<v Speaker 2>makes you more productive. And for me, I've always been

0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.240
<v Speaker 2>more productive in the morning, and so I design my

0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:30.280
<v Speaker 2>day around that, and I'm very careful about what I

0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.120
<v Speaker 2>take on in the morning, so I don't do any

0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.000
<v Speaker 2>any admin I don't do anything that's sort of like

0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.679
<v Speaker 2>just responsive in the mornings. The mornings I really reserve

0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.560
<v Speaker 2>for strategic work, creative work, that sort of deep thinking

0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 2>happens in the morning. And then the afternoons, when I

0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.600
<v Speaker 2>know that my body is more tired out and then

0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm not as sharp, that's when I'm really focusing on

0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.720
<v Speaker 2>some of those smaller tasks. So that's one of the

0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.679
<v Speaker 2>things that I do. And then another thing that I

0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.440
<v Speaker 2>do is I use a lot of analog tools, So

0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.639
<v Speaker 2>I have a weekly planner, I have a calendar, I

0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:04.600
<v Speaker 2>have a daily to do list, and all of that

0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:08.159
<v Speaker 2>is just physical pen and paper where I can chart out, Okay,

0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.040
<v Speaker 2>this is what I think I'm doing for the week,

0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.040
<v Speaker 2>and then every day, hour by hour, this is what

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:16.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to try and get done. Especially as someone

0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.280
<v Speaker 2>who you know doesn't have a boss to report to

0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:22.120
<v Speaker 2>and is in charge of their own deadlines, it's helpful

0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.680
<v Speaker 2>to see that kind of laid out like that, where

0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.119
<v Speaker 2>you can be a little more realistic about how you're

0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:31.040
<v Speaker 2>going to spend each day without all the device distractions.

0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:33.840
<v Speaker 1>And is this planning process something you kind of do

0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.159
<v Speaker 1>on a weekly basis looking to the next week or

0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:39.040
<v Speaker 1>or is it more every day you're looking to the

0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:40.919
<v Speaker 1>next day or to a larger frame of time. I'm

0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:42.280
<v Speaker 1>curious to the cadence of it.

0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:43.800
<v Speaker 2>It's a little bit of boath. So you know, with

0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.880
<v Speaker 2>a book project, I have targets that I'm trying to meet,

0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.119
<v Speaker 2>deadlines that I'm trying to meet, but as you know,

0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, when you're working on a project of that size,

0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:58.800
<v Speaker 2>the deadlines don't always work. But I have so I

0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:01.600
<v Speaker 2>have things that I'm striving toward and then kind of

0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.959
<v Speaker 2>working backwards. But it can be as simple as you know,

0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm working on a novel right now, and so for

0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:11.080
<v Speaker 2>this week, it was sort of like, Okay, the goal

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:14.240
<v Speaker 2>is to try and revise the first part of the novel.

0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:17.880
<v Speaker 2>That's the goal for the week, and then daily I'm

0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of tracking progress. I'm going, okay, now you're working

0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.520
<v Speaker 2>on chapters like seven through nine today, Like that's the

0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:26.639
<v Speaker 2>goal and then hourly it's sort of like, Okay, I

0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:29.480
<v Speaker 2>think chapter seven is going to take three hours, Like,

0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:32.040
<v Speaker 2>let's see how that goes. So it's really kind of

0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:33.960
<v Speaker 2>again funneling down from there.

0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, great, great ideas. What's something you have done recently

0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:40.480
<v Speaker 1>to take a day from great to awesome?

0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:43.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I love this question because I think, you know,

0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.400
<v Speaker 2>when I was thinking of examples, really they all came

0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:51.040
<v Speaker 2>down to introducing more entropy into my day and taking

0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:55.359
<v Speaker 2>more breaks. So, you know, especially having written a book

0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:58.199
<v Speaker 2>on rest, I thought about this a lot of you know,

0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:01.199
<v Speaker 2>we're not machines, even though we sometimes feel like we

0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.480
<v Speaker 2>ought to be, and constantly producing. For me at least,

0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.280
<v Speaker 2>I think for many of us, taking breaks is just

0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:11.640
<v Speaker 2>it's like this huge mental unlock. It's a big reset.

0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:14.880
<v Speaker 2>And the most exciting breaks for me are the ones

0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 2>that are just like a little bit different, things that

0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:21.040
<v Speaker 2>don't quote unquote book productive. So having coffee with a

0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:24.720
<v Speaker 2>friend who is it's totally unrelated to anything that I'm

0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:29.040
<v Speaker 2>working on, I will leave that feeling so invigorated and

0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.480
<v Speaker 2>so energized, even if I didn't you know, talk at

0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:37.639
<v Speaker 2>all about work or setting up you know, a writing

0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:41.080
<v Speaker 2>sort of like mini retreat with someone, I'm going to

0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:42.960
<v Speaker 2>get less work done than if I were to do

0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:46.080
<v Speaker 2>it at home alone. But just that little bit of entropy,

0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:50.760
<v Speaker 2>that spark that helps kind of reset things, or even

0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:53.639
<v Speaker 2>just you know, taking an extra long walk with my

0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:56.959
<v Speaker 2>dog because it's sunny out. All of those things that

0:24:57.080 --> 0:24:59.760
<v Speaker 2>again on paper, you're like, wow, I just I kind

0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:02.400
<v Speaker 2>of ninety minutes of the day there, like probably shouldn't

0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:05.640
<v Speaker 2>have done that I find are actually really helpful. That's

0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:09.040
<v Speaker 2>slowing down the act of slowing down. It just does

0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:13.760
<v Speaker 2>something where it's this really important creative mental reset, and

0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:16.720
<v Speaker 2>I often find that that is when I'm solving problems.

0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:20.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's like stepping away is really the biggest

0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:20.720
<v Speaker 2>thing that I can do.

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we love little adventures around here. It's a good

0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:27.560
<v Speaker 1>way to make a schedule a lot more fun. So

0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:28.760
<v Speaker 1>where can people find you?

0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:32.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I have a website Humana Vanguitrea dot com

0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:35.760
<v Speaker 2>and a newsletter where I talk a lot about these

0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:39.240
<v Speaker 2>kinds of topics and that's Jimena dot substack dot com.

0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:41.600
<v Speaker 1>Awesome, Oh, Himana, thank you so much for joining us.

0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:44.760
<v Speaker 1>Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback

0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:47.400
<v Speaker 1>on this, or any other episode. You can always reach

0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:50.720
<v Speaker 1>me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com and in

0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:54.639
<v Speaker 1>the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's

0:25:54.680 --> 0:26:03.679
<v Speaker 1>to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening

0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:08.080
<v Speaker 1>to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,

0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:17.760
<v Speaker 1>you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

0:26:17.880 --> 0:26:21.919
<v Speaker 1>Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts

0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:26.560
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