Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
Speaker 1: episode is going to be a slightly longer one part
Speaker 1: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
Speaker 1: they take their days from great to awesome and any
Speaker 1: advice they have for the rest of us. So today,
Speaker 1: I'm delighted to welcome him in a Vingoica to Before Breakfast.
Speaker 1: She is the author of several books, including Listen Like
Speaker 1: You Mean It, Rest Easy, and The Life Audit, a
Speaker 1: step by stead guide to discovering your goals and building
Speaker 1: the life you want. So him in and welcome to
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so excited to have you on. Why don't you
Speaker 1: tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I'm a user researcher, which we can get
Speaker 2: into a little bit, but it informs a lot of
Speaker 2: the writing that I do. So I've worked at several
Speaker 2: big tech companies, and I write and I illustrate rate
Speaker 2: have several nonfiction books, and I'm actually also working on
Speaker 2: some novels.
Speaker 1: Oh wonderful. I'm so excited about that and can't wait
Speaker 1: to read it, so tell us, yeah about user experience
Speaker 1: and what this means for people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so a user researcher, I like to think of
Speaker 2: it as one of the more people friendly roles in tech.
Speaker 2: So essentially where they're to translate what do people really need?
Speaker 2: What are users really need from the products that we're building,
Speaker 2: and we're kind of a voice for the people. So
Speaker 2: rather than have someone say like, hey, I have this
Speaker 2: great design idea, let's just build it, the user researcher
Speaker 2: is really the intermediary to say, like, let's actually go
Speaker 2: talk to some people, see what they need, see how
Speaker 2: this fits into their world or doesn't make sure it's usable,
Speaker 2: beautifully designed, but also easy to use and actually functional.
Speaker 2: So it involves a lot of surveys but also one
Speaker 2: on one interviews, moderating group workshops, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it feels like a lot of tech may
Speaker 1: have a great thing it's supposed to do, but it's
Speaker 1: very hard for the user to understand it.
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 1: I mean do you counter that a lot?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean basically the goal is to not have
Speaker 2: you be on a page and be confused or get stuck,
Speaker 2: you know, not be able to find a button, you know,
Speaker 2: at a very micro level, and then I think at
Speaker 2: the macro level, it's really saying, you know, this is
Speaker 2: something that should bring something to your life, something positive,
Speaker 2: whether that's you know, purely functional or joyful and not
Speaker 2: be you know, a pet project. Let's say that someone
Speaker 2: just got really excited about but really just has no
Speaker 2: purpose in somebody's life.
Speaker 1: So, as part of doing this user research, you were
Speaker 1: listening to a lot of people, which then you pivoted
Speaker 1: to writing about that and becoming an expert on listening.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about your book
Speaker 1: on listening?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was interesting because as a user researcher,
Speaker 2: you're spending a lot of time interviewing people, having these
Speaker 2: really deep conversations in a very short amount of time.
Speaker 2: I mean these these could be really personal conversations about
Speaker 2: things like finances, and you only get forty five minutes,
Speaker 2: maybe sixty minutes to talk to someone, and so you
Speaker 2: really have to build the ability to go very deep
Speaker 2: very quickly. And that's not easy. You're you know, you're
Speaker 2: talking to a stranger, somebody who's never met you before,
Speaker 2: who maybe doesn't really understand whether even showing up to
Speaker 2: this company and you know, showing up to a lab
Speaker 2: it can be intimidating, and so you have to use
Speaker 2: a lot of tools and techniques to instantly build rapport
Speaker 2: to be able to get to those deeper questions without
Speaker 2: it feeling like an interrogation or invasive. And the more
Speaker 2: time I spent in the lab and was seeing, you know,
Speaker 2: the benefits of using these techniques in that setting, and
Speaker 2: then I could kind of easily contrast that with, oh, wait,
Speaker 2: I'm in this meeting with my peers and everybody's talking
Speaker 2: past each other, or you know, I'm having an everyday
Speaker 2: conversation with my husband and we're also just like totally
Speaker 2: on different wavelengths. You know, it seemed really obvious to
Speaker 2: me that those techniques could be pourted over to the
Speaker 2: real world, not just to you know, make conversations run
Speaker 2: more smoothly, but ultimately to build better relationships, because I
Speaker 2: think that's what it's really about. When you're able to
Speaker 2: be a good listener, it opens so much up between
Speaker 2: you and that other person. So it's really about leveraging
Speaker 2: that to build better and deeper connections.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I know that's something a lot of people want,
Speaker 1: but someone listening to this might be like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: I listen all the time. What am I doing wrong?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: What am I doing wrong when I'm listening? That is
Speaker 1: precluding these deeper connections.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think most of us when we listen,
Speaker 2: fall into what I would call service listening. So we're
Speaker 2: hearing enough of what's being said to not in smile,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe there's a follow up question or two.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not that we're totally absent of any
Speaker 2: listening skills. Right, It's like, you get through your day,
Speaker 2: you're not getting fired, you're being polite to the cash whatever, Right, Like,
Speaker 2: all of those things are true, but they're not exactly
Speaker 2: going very deep those conversations. And so what I'm proposing
Speaker 2: is to shift more to what I call empathetic listening,
Speaker 2: which is really about getting to a point of connection
Speaker 2: with someone else where you understand where the other person
Speaker 2: is coming from. And I think it's safe to say
Speaker 2: that a lot of times in our everyday conversations, we're
Speaker 2: not in that mode. We're not registering quite that deep. Well,
Speaker 2: what are some techniques we can use? Like, if somebody's
Speaker 2: listening to this and wants to try something today, what
Speaker 2: could they do. I think the first thing is to
Speaker 2: really go into it with what I call a listening mindset,
Speaker 2: and there's three components to that. So the first is humility,
Speaker 2: and this is maybe the hardest one, but it's really
Speaker 2: coming in with a spirit of being open to being wrong,
Speaker 2: kind of setting your own opinion aside, not just your opinion,
Speaker 2: also any preconceived notions, maybe even expertise that you have.
Speaker 2: I think that can actually be really quite difficult when
Speaker 2: you feel like you know a lot about a subject
Speaker 2: or area, or have really strong opinions, but just setting
Speaker 2: that aside and saying, Okay, actually my purpose here right
Speaker 2: now is not to teach. It's too more take a
Speaker 2: student role and learn from this other person. So humility
Speaker 2: really coming in with that mindset is kind of the
Speaker 2: first piece. And then you also want to bring in
Speaker 2: a spirit of curiosity. This I think is often missing
Speaker 2: from our everyday conversations. Maybe there's a topic that you
Speaker 2: just you really don't find interesting. For me a lot
Speaker 2: of times, it's sports, right, It's just not something that
Speaker 2: makes my heart sing. So I have to work harder
Speaker 2: when I'm in conversation with someone and they are a
Speaker 2: sports fan. Let's say and it would be easy for
Speaker 2: me to say, all right, they're talking about the super Bowl.
Speaker 2: I don't really care about that, Like I'm going to
Speaker 2: tune out. I have to find a thread that I
Speaker 2: can tag and get curious about. Okay, why is this
Speaker 2: person so interested in this topic? Why are they such
Speaker 2: a sports fan? Did they play sports as a kid?
Speaker 2: Were their parents really into sports? What does it mean
Speaker 2: that our culture is really into you know, the super Bowl?
Speaker 2: Like what can I learn from this? Right? Like, there's
Speaker 2: always something that I can get curious about. For me,
Speaker 2: for example, my in is while I'm not interested in
Speaker 2: sports per se, I do find the drama around you know,
Speaker 2: coaching styles and you know how people are drafted and
Speaker 2: why and all of that, Like I think that's actually
Speaker 2: quite interesting. So that's kind of my in. But it's
Speaker 2: figuring out, like what is your in into this topic
Speaker 2: that you can stay present and stay engaged instead of
Speaker 2: just saying, you know what that is not for me,
Speaker 2: I'm going to tune out. And then the third piece
Speaker 2: I think is empathy, and that's really going deeper of
Speaker 2: you know, why is this person bringing this to me?
Speaker 2: What is it that they're trying to get out of
Speaker 2: this conversation, What is it that they experience on a
Speaker 2: human level, you know, is their grief tied to this?
Speaker 2: Is their joy tied to this? And it's not to
Speaker 2: say that we have to have experienced the same thing.
Speaker 2: You know, if someone is sharing a story about a
Speaker 2: layoff and you've never experienced that, that's okay, But maybe
Speaker 2: you can tap into the feeling behind that, which is,
Speaker 2: you know, somebody is grieving this loss in their life
Speaker 2: and it was unexpected and surprising, and that must be
Speaker 2: really difficult. And have you ever had, you know, some
Speaker 2: kind of grief that you can tap into there. So
Speaker 2: I think those three components, when you're able to bring
Speaker 2: them all to the four, really sent you up for
Speaker 2: having a very different kind of conversation.
Speaker 1: So I want to ask about that last part though.
Speaker 1: I mean, empathy is for sure so important and we're
Speaker 1: trying to but by hooking that to something that I
Speaker 1: have maybe experienced in my life, I think we might
Speaker 1: accidentally fall into the trap of then being like, oh
Speaker 1: me too, Yeah you got laid off, you know, I
Speaker 1: some other random thing that had been bad to me.
Speaker 1: And I feel like that's probably not the best style
Speaker 1: of listening.
Speaker 2: No, I think you're right. I think there's a difference though,
Speaker 2: between tapping into that feeling and sitting with it and
Speaker 2: bearing witness to the other person experiencing that and doing
Speaker 2: what you're saying, which is I would call that identifying
Speaker 2: where you go, oh, yeah, yeah, like this is exactly
Speaker 2: like what I experienced, and then maybe you share about
Speaker 2: that and suddenly you're talking about your experience and the
Speaker 2: other person might go, wait a minute, like how did
Speaker 2: we get here? Like now they're talking about the loss
Speaker 2: of their dog that has nothing to do with, you know,
Speaker 2: the way I feel. So I do think it's important to,
Speaker 2: you know, try and get to that feeling, but then
Speaker 2: to also clarify, like what is actually needed in this conversation.
Speaker 2: It might be obvious, it might not be. You know this.
Speaker 2: This instinct to identify is one of what I call
Speaker 2: a default listening mode. We all have them. It's like
Speaker 2: a way of showing up in conversation. So some people
Speaker 2: are instant identifiers. Other people are instant problem solvers. They
Speaker 2: hear everything and they're like, ah, that's a problem to
Speaker 2: be solved, like let me come up with solutions, let
Speaker 2: me brainstorm with this person. Or they're a validator where
Speaker 2: they just want to cheerlead, you know, and say like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you were right in that argument, like that person totally
Speaker 2: didn't get it. These are all ways of showing up
Speaker 2: in conversation. There's nothing wrong with them, but you do
Speaker 2: have to take a step back when you're in a
Speaker 2: conversation and ask yourself, Okay, my instinct is to identify,
Speaker 2: to offer my my similar experience or to problem solve,
Speaker 2: to offer solution. Is that actually what this person needs
Speaker 2: or is it something else? And I think that is
Speaker 2: kind of how you manage some of some of that.
Speaker 2: It's sort of being aware of what that instinctive pull
Speaker 2: is to respond and then maybe a little bit of
Speaker 2: a gut check or even asking like hey, like you know,
Speaker 2: my instinct would be to maybe brainstorm with you, is
Speaker 2: that what you're looking for and get that clarity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to ask, I mean sometimes you can in fact,
Speaker 1: just to ask exactly. Well, we're going to take a
Speaker 1: quick ad break and then we'll be back with more
Speaker 1: tips on better listening. Well, I am back talking with
Speaker 1: him and a vinga Cha. She is the author of
Speaker 1: several books, including Listen Like You Mean It, Rest Easy,
Speaker 1: and The Life Audit One of the techniques you talk
Speaker 1: about in Listen like you mean it is the power
Speaker 1: of silence. And I know you use this to good
Speaker 1: effect in your user research interviews, trying to get people
Speaker 1: to talk about what they were experiencing. How can we
Speaker 1: sort of build this into everyday life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, one of the things that silence allows
Speaker 2: is for processing. It's for thinking through, and it's giving
Speaker 2: space for another person to vocalize, to verbalize that. So
Speaker 2: often our very human instinct is if a conversation goes quiet,
Speaker 2: we want to rush in and fill the void because
Speaker 2: it's uncomfortable. You maybe have like a little bit of
Speaker 2: an inner monologue of oh God, did I say something
Speaker 2: to offend this person? Or have I bored them? Or geez,
Speaker 2: like I need to I need to come up with
Speaker 2: something else to say, Like I need to be spontaneous
Speaker 2: and fun. And you know, we can get in our
Speaker 2: own head about these kinds of things. But sometimes silence
Speaker 2: is just a way for the other person to finish
Speaker 2: the thought, you know, to think it through a little
Speaker 2: bit more, or to open up. Maybe they're building up
Speaker 2: towards sharing something vulnerable that you know it was difficult
Speaker 2: to say immediately, right so we want to give the
Speaker 2: conversation breathing room. We want to give that space, and
Speaker 2: that can be very hard for people. It's very hard
Speaker 2: for me. So, like one of the things that you
Speaker 2: can do is to just you know, if you feel
Speaker 2: that silent moment encroaching and you're starting to get uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: try counting to ten, you know, just see what will happen.
Speaker 2: Maybe nothing happens, that's okay too. But usually when you
Speaker 2: do give people a little bit of space, they'll they'll
Speaker 2: bring something to the conversation that was maybe unexpected that
Speaker 2: you didn't really know. Oh, we're going to go there, Okay, great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are some ways to show that we're engaged
Speaker 1: in the conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, part of it
Speaker 2: is physical. It's like, you know, eye contact can be
Speaker 2: very important, you know, nodding your head along, some of
Speaker 2: these natural cues that I think most of us are
Speaker 2: probably doing and you don't have to think too much about.
Speaker 2: But you know, if you're someone who generally avoids eye contact,
Speaker 2: maybe that's something that you want to start incorporating into
Speaker 2: your conversation. But some of these are also just verbal cues.
Speaker 2: So it's asking good follow up questions. It's kind of
Speaker 2: nudging the conversation along. It's demonstrating an interest by really
Speaker 2: engaging with what they're saying. And people can tell when
Speaker 2: you know you're asking a question for the sake of
Speaker 2: it versus you're actually invested, because the types of questions
Speaker 2: that you're more likely to ask are going to be
Speaker 2: more specific, They're going to be a little bit deeper
Speaker 2: rather than surface level. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, although with that, are there any good sort
Speaker 1: of deepening questions that can kind of nudge people to
Speaker 1: keep going and show that you're engaged.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I like to think of you know,
Speaker 2: questions come in different categories. Some questions are going to
Speaker 2: close a conversation and some questions are going to open
Speaker 2: them up. So you want to try and avoid simply
Speaker 2: close ended questions, So questions that are going to result
Speaker 2: in a yes or no answer. So questions that start
Speaker 2: with do are that kind of thing you want to
Speaker 2: go for more open ended what how? Why is tricky
Speaker 2: because why can sound like you're interrogating someone, so that
Speaker 2: one is maybe less useful, But so thinking about how
Speaker 2: you're framing questions so less you know, are you nervous
Speaker 2: about that work presentation, and more, hey, how do you
Speaker 2: feel about that presentation coming up? So you're not you know,
Speaker 2: projecting onto that person and how they might be experiencing something.
Speaker 2: So I think those questions can be useful. And then
Speaker 2: the last thing I'll say is just sometimes just when
Speaker 2: you can sense that somebody also, you know, maybe there's
Speaker 2: more to say and you're kind of tiptoeing around it,
Speaker 2: just repeating what they've said and giving some space for
Speaker 2: it or slightly paraphrasing it. It can be really simple like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, you mentioned feeling upset, and you can pause,
Speaker 2: you know, and see what they say. Or you can
Speaker 2: add a little nudge like you're feeling upset because and
Speaker 2: pause and again like people will kind of fill in
Speaker 2: the blanks. So those are some of the ways that
Speaker 2: you can deep in and show that engagement at the
Speaker 2: same time.
Speaker 1: Excellent tips. Well, I want to pivot to your more
Speaker 1: recent book because I definitely want listeners to check that
Speaker 1: out as well. The life Audit. What on Earth is
Speaker 1: a life audit?
Speaker 2: Great question? Yes, So the life audit is an exercise
Speaker 2: in self reflection and really getting to know yourself in
Speaker 2: order to essentially architect the life that you want. So
Speaker 2: it's a way of uncovering your deepest wishes, desires, goals,
Speaker 2: and also your core values and essentially looking and seeing,
Speaker 2: like do my core values align with the life that
Speaker 2: I want to live? Am I pursuing the goals, these wishes,
Speaker 2: these desires. Have I set my life up in a
Speaker 2: way that I can see these things through? And I
Speaker 2: think it's it's useful for anyone who you know, wants
Speaker 2: to take a step back and sort of reflect on
Speaker 2: where they are in their journey and where they want
Speaker 2: to go. And it's particularly useful if you're at some
Speaker 2: kind of crossroads, like maybe you've just graduated college, maybe
Speaker 2: you've just changed jobs, or you're thinking about changing careers.
Speaker 2: Maybe you've just had a child and that's kind of
Speaker 2: upended your world. So I think there are lots of
Speaker 2: moments where this can be useful, and it could also
Speaker 2: just be as simple as you know, an annual sort
Speaker 2: of like the new Year, you want to reflect and
Speaker 2: see like what do I want to add of this
Speaker 2: year of my life.
Speaker 1: One of the things you suggest people do is come
Speaker 1: up with a hundred wishes that you're putting on post
Speaker 1: it notes, and you give people very limited time to
Speaker 1: come up with these as well. I've often suggested listeners
Speaker 1: do what we call it a list of one hundred
Speaker 1: dreams around here, you know, one hundred things you'd like
Speaker 1: to spend more time doing in your life, or goals
Speaker 1: that will take more time that you want to do.
Speaker 1: But I've never actually forced anyone to do it in
Speaker 1: an hour, so I'm curious about the time limit and
Speaker 1: how you came up with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it's useful to have constraints.
Speaker 2: In the same way that it's useful to say, hey,
Speaker 2: aim for a hundred I think it's useful to try
Speaker 2: and do it in an hour. Obviously, this is your life, audit.
Speaker 2: If you want to take more time, go ahead and
Speaker 2: take more time. You know no one's gonna check up
Speaker 2: on you. But I think that that constraint, it's really
Speaker 2: about focusing that time because many of us don't make
Speaker 2: the time to ask these big questions of ourselves. So honestly,
Speaker 2: even an hour kind of feels luxurious if you think
Speaker 2: about it that way, right, But that our time frame
Speaker 2: and using those post its, those are deliberate constraints. Like
Speaker 2: I suggest sticky notes and not you know, an Excel spreadsheet,
Speaker 2: because then you've got a device, and then you've got notifications.
Speaker 2: And I suggest a sticky note with a sharpie because
Speaker 2: it forces you to write less. Right, you cannot write
Speaker 2: that much when you're using a sharpie on a three
Speaker 2: by three sticky notes. It forces you to kind of
Speaker 2: get to the heart of that wish or desire. So
Speaker 2: all of those constraints are really intentional to help you
Speaker 2: uncover these these deeper desires with the tools that you
Speaker 2: already have.
Speaker 1: And do you have a good process for once people
Speaker 1: sort of brainstorm a lot of things that they would
Speaker 1: like to do for giving themselves any sort of timeline
Speaker 1: for achieving these.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the first part of the Life Audit is
Speaker 2: really about uncovering those goals and then sort of doing
Speaker 2: an affinity mapping where you're grouping things into themes and
Speaker 2: starting to see patterns and saying, wow, I have a
Speaker 2: lot of goals or wishes around health or a lot
Speaker 2: around career, community, whatever it may be. And then the
Speaker 2: second part of the book does focus on Okay, you've
Speaker 2: got all of these wishes, now how do I prioritize them?
Speaker 2: And what does that look like. And I always like
Speaker 2: to remind people that, you know, whatever plan you come
Speaker 2: up with, this is over the course of your life,
Speaker 2: right because it can feel overwhelming to look at everything
Speaker 2: and go, oh my god, there's so much that I
Speaker 2: want to do. Where do I begin and how quickly
Speaker 2: can I do these things? But it is a pretty long,
Speaker 2: you know, timeframe we're talking about. So usually what I
Speaker 2: suggest is that people start to focus on let's say,
Speaker 2: three to five things they want to get done in
Speaker 2: the near term, you know, and you can separate it
Speaker 2: out from these are let's say core values. These are
Speaker 2: things that I want to carry with me every day,
Speaker 2: So things like I really want to be patient or generous,
Speaker 2: those are things that are going to live with you
Speaker 2: and you want to carry that every day. But then
Speaker 2: there are also the things that maybe you want to
Speaker 2: get done in the next six months, six to twelve months,
Speaker 2: let's say. And then there are things like you know,
Speaker 2: live abroad that maybe that's something that you'll do in retirement.
Speaker 2: Who knows, right, So at least that initial framing of
Speaker 2: is it every day, is it six to twelve months out,
Speaker 2: is it much further out? And then from there, once
Speaker 2: you pick those, let's say three to five that you
Speaker 2: want to work on. Then you start breaking everything down
Speaker 2: into even smaller chunks. Okay, you want to live abroad
Speaker 2: at some point, great, what do you have to do?
Speaker 2: Like do you have to learn a language? Do you
Speaker 2: want to sign up for language classes? Do you want
Speaker 2: to visit that place? Plan a visit first? And so
Speaker 2: then you start really getting into the nitty gritty. So
Speaker 2: it's kind of like I'm motioning, nobody can see, but
Speaker 2: it's kind of like a funnel right where you're starting
Speaker 2: pretty broad and getting more and more specific because that's
Speaker 2: what makes it actionable.
Speaker 1: Yeap, big goals down to doable steps exactly. Well, we're
Speaker 1: going to take one more quick ad break and then
Speaker 1: we'll be back with a little bit more about him
Speaker 1: INA's productivity routines. Well, I am back talking with him
Speaker 1: and Vingoateea about her books on listening, her book on
Speaker 1: the Life Audit. I want to talk about your routines.
Speaker 1: I've always love to hear about what makes people more productive.
Speaker 1: Do you have any particular routines that make you more productive?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I always think about it as like every
Speaker 2: person has their personal productivity zone, which is like a
Speaker 2: time of day or a place, an environment, something that
Speaker 2: makes you more productive. And for me, I've always been
Speaker 2: more productive in the morning, and so I design my
Speaker 2: day around that, and I'm very careful about what I
Speaker 2: take on in the morning, so I don't do any
Speaker 2: any admin I don't do anything that's sort of like
Speaker 2: just responsive in the mornings. The mornings I really reserve
Speaker 2: for strategic work, creative work, that sort of deep thinking
Speaker 2: happens in the morning. And then the afternoons, when I
Speaker 2: know that my body is more tired out and then
Speaker 2: I'm not as sharp, that's when I'm really focusing on
Speaker 2: some of those smaller tasks. So that's one of the
Speaker 2: things that I do. And then another thing that I
Speaker 2: do is I use a lot of analog tools, So
Speaker 2: I have a weekly planner, I have a calendar, I
Speaker 2: have a daily to do list, and all of that
Speaker 2: is just physical pen and paper where I can chart out, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is what I think I'm doing for the week,
Speaker 2: and then every day, hour by hour, this is what
Speaker 2: I'm going to try and get done. Especially as someone
Speaker 2: who you know doesn't have a boss to report to
Speaker 2: and is in charge of their own deadlines, it's helpful
Speaker 2: to see that kind of laid out like that, where
Speaker 2: you can be a little more realistic about how you're
Speaker 2: going to spend each day without all the device distractions.
Speaker 1: And is this planning process something you kind of do
Speaker 1: on a weekly basis looking to the next week or
Speaker 1: or is it more every day you're looking to the
Speaker 1: next day or to a larger frame of time. I'm
Speaker 1: curious to the cadence of it.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit of boath. So you know, with
Speaker 2: a book project, I have targets that I'm trying to meet,
Speaker 2: deadlines that I'm trying to meet, but as you know,
Speaker 2: you know, when you're working on a project of that size,
Speaker 2: the deadlines don't always work. But I have so I
Speaker 2: have things that I'm striving toward and then kind of
Speaker 2: working backwards. But it can be as simple as you know,
Speaker 2: I'm working on a novel right now, and so for
Speaker 2: this week, it was sort of like, Okay, the goal
Speaker 2: is to try and revise the first part of the novel.
Speaker 2: That's the goal for the week, and then daily I'm
Speaker 2: kind of tracking progress. I'm going, okay, now you're working
Speaker 2: on chapters like seven through nine today, Like that's the
Speaker 2: goal and then hourly it's sort of like, Okay, I
Speaker 2: think chapter seven is going to take three hours, Like,
Speaker 2: let's see how that goes. So it's really kind of
Speaker 2: again funneling down from there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great, great ideas. What's something you have done recently
Speaker 1: to take a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I love this question because I think, you know,
Speaker 2: when I was thinking of examples, really they all came
Speaker 2: down to introducing more entropy into my day and taking
Speaker 2: more breaks. So, you know, especially having written a book
Speaker 2: on rest, I thought about this a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: we're not machines, even though we sometimes feel like we
Speaker 2: ought to be, and constantly producing. For me at least,
Speaker 2: I think for many of us, taking breaks is just
Speaker 2: it's like this huge mental unlock. It's a big reset.
Speaker 2: And the most exciting breaks for me are the ones
Speaker 2: that are just like a little bit different, things that
Speaker 2: don't quote unquote book productive. So having coffee with a
Speaker 2: friend who is it's totally unrelated to anything that I'm
Speaker 2: working on, I will leave that feeling so invigorated and
Speaker 2: so energized, even if I didn't you know, talk at
Speaker 2: all about work or setting up you know, a writing
Speaker 2: sort of like mini retreat with someone, I'm going to
Speaker 2: get less work done than if I were to do
Speaker 2: it at home alone. But just that little bit of entropy,
Speaker 2: that spark that helps kind of reset things, or even
Speaker 2: just you know, taking an extra long walk with my
Speaker 2: dog because it's sunny out. All of those things that
Speaker 2: again on paper, you're like, wow, I just I kind
Speaker 2: of ninety minutes of the day there, like probably shouldn't
Speaker 2: have done that I find are actually really helpful. That's
Speaker 2: slowing down the act of slowing down. It just does
Speaker 2: something where it's this really important creative mental reset, and
Speaker 2: I often find that that is when I'm solving problems.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like stepping away is really the biggest
Speaker 2: thing that I can do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we love little adventures around here. It's a good
Speaker 1: way to make a schedule a lot more fun. So
Speaker 1: where can people find you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have a website Humana Vanguitrea dot com
Speaker 2: and a newsletter where I talk a lot about these
Speaker 2: kinds of topics and that's Jimena dot substack dot com.
Speaker 1: Awesome, Oh, Himana, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
Speaker 1: on this, or any other episode. You can always reach
Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com and in
Speaker 1: the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's
Speaker 1: to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
Speaker 1: you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
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