1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning, 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: episode is going to be a slightly longer one part 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: they take their days from great to awesome and any 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: advice they have for the rest of us. So today, 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm delighted to welcome him in a Vingoica to Before Breakfast. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: She is the author of several books, including Listen Like 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: You Mean It, Rest Easy, and The Life Audit, a 10 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: step by stead guide to discovering your goals and building 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: the life you want. So him in and welcome to 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: the show. 13 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 14 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, so excited to have you on. Why don't you 15 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. 16 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I'm a user researcher, which we can get 17 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: into a little bit, but it informs a lot of 18 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: the writing that I do. So I've worked at several 19 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 2: big tech companies, and I write and I illustrate rate 20 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: have several nonfiction books, and I'm actually also working on 21 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: some novels. 22 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: Oh wonderful. I'm so excited about that and can't wait 23 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: to read it, so tell us, yeah about user experience 24 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,919 Speaker 1: and what this means for people. 25 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so a user researcher, I like to think of 26 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 2: it as one of the more people friendly roles in tech. 27 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 2: So essentially where they're to translate what do people really need? 28 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 2: What are users really need from the products that we're building, 29 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: and we're kind of a voice for the people. So 30 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: rather than have someone say like, hey, I have this 31 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 2: great design idea, let's just build it, the user researcher 32 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: is really the intermediary to say, like, let's actually go 33 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: talk to some people, see what they need, see how 34 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 2: this fits into their world or doesn't make sure it's usable, 35 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: beautifully designed, but also easy to use and actually functional. 36 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: So it involves a lot of surveys but also one 37 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: on one interviews, moderating group workshops, that kind of thing. 38 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it feels like a lot of tech may 39 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: have a great thing it's supposed to do, but it's 40 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: very hard for the user to understand it. 41 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: Is that? 42 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: I mean do you counter that a lot? 43 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean basically the goal is to not have 44 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: you be on a page and be confused or get stuck, 45 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: you know, not be able to find a button, you know, 46 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 2: at a very micro level, and then I think at 47 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 2: the macro level, it's really saying, you know, this is 48 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: something that should bring something to your life, something positive, 49 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 2: whether that's you know, purely functional or joyful and not 50 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: be you know, a pet project. Let's say that someone 51 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: just got really excited about but really just has no 52 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: purpose in somebody's life. 53 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: So, as part of doing this user research, you were 54 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: listening to a lot of people, which then you pivoted 55 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: to writing about that and becoming an expert on listening. 56 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about your book 57 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: on listening? 58 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was interesting because as a user researcher, 59 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: you're spending a lot of time interviewing people, having these 60 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: really deep conversations in a very short amount of time. 61 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 2: I mean these these could be really personal conversations about 62 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: things like finances, and you only get forty five minutes, 63 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 2: maybe sixty minutes to talk to someone, and so you 64 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 2: really have to build the ability to go very deep 65 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 2: very quickly. And that's not easy. You're you know, you're 66 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 2: talking to a stranger, somebody who's never met you before, 67 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: who maybe doesn't really understand whether even showing up to 68 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: this company and you know, showing up to a lab 69 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 2: it can be intimidating, and so you have to use 70 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: a lot of tools and techniques to instantly build rapport 71 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: to be able to get to those deeper questions without 72 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: it feeling like an interrogation or invasive. And the more 73 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: time I spent in the lab and was seeing, you know, 74 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: the benefits of using these techniques in that setting, and 75 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: then I could kind of easily contrast that with, oh, wait, 76 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: I'm in this meeting with my peers and everybody's talking 77 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 2: past each other, or you know, I'm having an everyday 78 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: conversation with my husband and we're also just like totally 79 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: on different wavelengths. You know, it seemed really obvious to 80 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: me that those techniques could be pourted over to the 81 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: real world, not just to you know, make conversations run 82 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: more smoothly, but ultimately to build better relationships, because I 83 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: think that's what it's really about. When you're able to 84 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: be a good listener, it opens so much up between 85 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: you and that other person. So it's really about leveraging 86 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 2: that to build better and deeper connections. 87 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I know that's something a lot of people want, 88 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,119 Speaker 1: but someone listening to this might be like, well, okay, 89 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: I listen all the time. What am I doing wrong? 90 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 2: Like? 91 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: What am I doing wrong when I'm listening? That is 92 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: precluding these deeper connections. 93 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think most of us when we listen, 94 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 2: fall into what I would call service listening. So we're 95 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: hearing enough of what's being said to not in smile, 96 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: you know, maybe there's a follow up question or two. 97 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: You know, it's not that we're totally absent of any 98 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: listening skills. Right, It's like, you get through your day, 99 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: you're not getting fired, you're being polite to the cash whatever, Right, Like, 100 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: all of those things are true, but they're not exactly 101 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 2: going very deep those conversations. And so what I'm proposing 102 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: is to shift more to what I call empathetic listening, 103 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: which is really about getting to a point of connection 104 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: with someone else where you understand where the other person 105 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 2: is coming from. And I think it's safe to say 106 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: that a lot of times in our everyday conversations, we're 107 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 2: not in that mode. We're not registering quite that deep. Well, 108 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: what are some techniques we can use? Like, if somebody's 109 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: listening to this and wants to try something today, what 110 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 2: could they do. I think the first thing is to 111 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: really go into it with what I call a listening mindset, 112 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: and there's three components to that. So the first is humility, 113 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: and this is maybe the hardest one, but it's really 114 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 2: coming in with a spirit of being open to being wrong, 115 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: kind of setting your own opinion aside, not just your opinion, 116 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: also any preconceived notions, maybe even expertise that you have. 117 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 2: I think that can actually be really quite difficult when 118 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: you feel like you know a lot about a subject 119 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: or area, or have really strong opinions, but just setting 120 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: that aside and saying, Okay, actually my purpose here right 121 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 2: now is not to teach. It's too more take a 122 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 2: student role and learn from this other person. So humility 123 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: really coming in with that mindset is kind of the 124 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: first piece. And then you also want to bring in 125 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: a spirit of curiosity. This I think is often missing 126 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: from our everyday conversations. Maybe there's a topic that you 127 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: just you really don't find interesting. For me a lot 128 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: of times, it's sports, right, It's just not something that 129 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: makes my heart sing. So I have to work harder 130 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 2: when I'm in conversation with someone and they are a 131 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: sports fan. Let's say and it would be easy for 132 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: me to say, all right, they're talking about the super Bowl. 133 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: I don't really care about that, Like I'm going to 134 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: tune out. I have to find a thread that I 135 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: can tag and get curious about. Okay, why is this 136 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: person so interested in this topic? Why are they such 137 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: a sports fan? Did they play sports as a kid? 138 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 2: Were their parents really into sports? What does it mean 139 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: that our culture is really into you know, the super Bowl? 140 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: Like what can I learn from this? Right? Like, there's 141 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 2: always something that I can get curious about. For me, 142 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: for example, my in is while I'm not interested in 143 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 2: sports per se, I do find the drama around you know, 144 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: coaching styles and you know how people are drafted and 145 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: why and all of that, Like I think that's actually 146 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: quite interesting. So that's kind of my in. But it's 147 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: figuring out, like what is your in into this topic 148 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: that you can stay present and stay engaged instead of 149 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: just saying, you know what that is not for me, 150 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to tune out. And then the third piece 151 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: I think is empathy, and that's really going deeper of 152 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: you know, why is this person bringing this to me? 153 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: What is it that they're trying to get out of 154 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: this conversation, What is it that they experience on a 155 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: human level, you know, is their grief tied to this? 156 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: Is their joy tied to this? And it's not to 157 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: say that we have to have experienced the same thing. 158 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: You know, if someone is sharing a story about a 159 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: layoff and you've never experienced that, that's okay, But maybe 160 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: you can tap into the feeling behind that, which is, 161 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: you know, somebody is grieving this loss in their life 162 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: and it was unexpected and surprising, and that must be 163 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: really difficult. And have you ever had, you know, some 164 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: kind of grief that you can tap into there. So 165 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: I think those three components, when you're able to bring 166 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: them all to the four, really sent you up for 167 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: having a very different kind of conversation. 168 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: So I want to ask about that last part though. 169 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: I mean, empathy is for sure so important and we're 170 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: trying to but by hooking that to something that I 171 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: have maybe experienced in my life, I think we might 172 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: accidentally fall into the trap of then being like, oh 173 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: me too, Yeah you got laid off, you know, I 174 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: some other random thing that had been bad to me. 175 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: And I feel like that's probably not the best style 176 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: of listening. 177 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: No, I think you're right. I think there's a difference though, 178 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 2: between tapping into that feeling and sitting with it and 179 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: bearing witness to the other person experiencing that and doing 180 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: what you're saying, which is I would call that identifying 181 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: where you go, oh, yeah, yeah, like this is exactly 182 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: like what I experienced, and then maybe you share about 183 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: that and suddenly you're talking about your experience and the 184 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: other person might go, wait a minute, like how did 185 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 2: we get here? Like now they're talking about the loss 186 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: of their dog that has nothing to do with, you know, 187 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 2: the way I feel. So I do think it's important to, 188 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: you know, try and get to that feeling, but then 189 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: to also clarify, like what is actually needed in this conversation. 190 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: It might be obvious, it might not be. You know this. 191 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: This instinct to identify is one of what I call 192 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: a default listening mode. We all have them. It's like 193 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: a way of showing up in conversation. So some people 194 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 2: are instant identifiers. Other people are instant problem solvers. They 195 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: hear everything and they're like, ah, that's a problem to 196 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: be solved, like let me come up with solutions, let 197 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 2: me brainstorm with this person. Or they're a validator where 198 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: they just want to cheerlead, you know, and say like, yeah, 199 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: you were right in that argument, like that person totally 200 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: didn't get it. These are all ways of showing up 201 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: in conversation. There's nothing wrong with them, but you do 202 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 2: have to take a step back when you're in a 203 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: conversation and ask yourself, Okay, my instinct is to identify, 204 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: to offer my my similar experience or to problem solve, 205 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: to offer solution. Is that actually what this person needs 206 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: or is it something else? And I think that is 207 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 2: kind of how you manage some of some of that. 208 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: It's sort of being aware of what that instinctive pull 209 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: is to respond and then maybe a little bit of 210 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 2: a gut check or even asking like hey, like you know, 211 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 2: my instinct would be to maybe brainstorm with you, is 212 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: that what you're looking for and get that clarity. 213 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, to ask, I mean sometimes you can in fact, 214 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,599 Speaker 1: just to ask exactly. Well, we're going to take a 215 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: quick ad break and then we'll be back with more 216 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: tips on better listening. Well, I am back talking with 217 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: him and a vinga Cha. She is the author of 218 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: several books, including Listen Like You Mean It, Rest Easy, 219 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: and The Life Audit One of the techniques you talk 220 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: about in Listen like you mean it is the power 221 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: of silence. And I know you use this to good 222 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: effect in your user research interviews, trying to get people 223 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: to talk about what they were experiencing. How can we 224 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: sort of build this into everyday life. 225 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, one of the things that silence allows 226 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: is for processing. It's for thinking through, and it's giving 227 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: space for another person to vocalize, to verbalize that. So 228 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 2: often our very human instinct is if a conversation goes quiet, 229 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: we want to rush in and fill the void because 230 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 2: it's uncomfortable. You maybe have like a little bit of 231 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: an inner monologue of oh God, did I say something 232 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: to offend this person? Or have I bored them? Or geez, 233 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: like I need to I need to come up with 234 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: something else to say, Like I need to be spontaneous 235 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 2: and fun. And you know, we can get in our 236 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 2: own head about these kinds of things. But sometimes silence 237 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: is just a way for the other person to finish 238 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: the thought, you know, to think it through a little 239 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: bit more, or to open up. Maybe they're building up 240 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: towards sharing something vulnerable that you know it was difficult 241 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 2: to say immediately, right so we want to give the 242 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 2: conversation breathing room. We want to give that space, and 243 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: that can be very hard for people. It's very hard 244 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: for me. So, like one of the things that you 245 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: can do is to just you know, if you feel 246 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 2: that silent moment encroaching and you're starting to get uncomfortable, 247 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: try counting to ten, you know, just see what will happen. 248 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: Maybe nothing happens, that's okay too. But usually when you 249 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 2: do give people a little bit of space, they'll they'll 250 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: bring something to the conversation that was maybe unexpected that 251 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,479 Speaker 2: you didn't really know. Oh, we're going to go there, Okay, great. 252 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, what are some ways to show that we're engaged 253 00:12:59,160 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: in the conversation. 254 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, part of it 255 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: is physical. It's like, you know, eye contact can be 256 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 2: very important, you know, nodding your head along, some of 257 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: these natural cues that I think most of us are 258 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 2: probably doing and you don't have to think too much about. 259 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: But you know, if you're someone who generally avoids eye contact, 260 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 2: maybe that's something that you want to start incorporating into 261 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: your conversation. But some of these are also just verbal cues. 262 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 2: So it's asking good follow up questions. It's kind of 263 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: nudging the conversation along. It's demonstrating an interest by really 264 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: engaging with what they're saying. And people can tell when 265 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: you know you're asking a question for the sake of 266 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: it versus you're actually invested, because the types of questions 267 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: that you're more likely to ask are going to be 268 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 2: more specific, They're going to be a little bit deeper 269 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: rather than surface level. Yeah. 270 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: I mean, although with that, are there any good sort 271 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: of deepening questions that can kind of nudge people to 272 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: keep going and show that you're engaged. 273 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I like to think of you know, 274 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: questions come in different categories. Some questions are going to 275 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 2: close a conversation and some questions are going to open 276 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: them up. So you want to try and avoid simply 277 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: close ended questions, So questions that are going to result 278 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 2: in a yes or no answer. So questions that start 279 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: with do are that kind of thing you want to 280 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: go for more open ended what how? Why is tricky 281 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: because why can sound like you're interrogating someone, so that 282 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: one is maybe less useful, But so thinking about how 283 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: you're framing questions so less you know, are you nervous 284 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 2: about that work presentation, and more, hey, how do you 285 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: feel about that presentation coming up? So you're not you know, 286 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: projecting onto that person and how they might be experiencing something. 287 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: So I think those questions can be useful. And then 288 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 2: the last thing I'll say is just sometimes just when 289 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: you can sense that somebody also, you know, maybe there's 290 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: more to say and you're kind of tiptoeing around it, 291 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: just repeating what they've said and giving some space for 292 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: it or slightly paraphrasing it. It can be really simple like, oh, 293 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: you know, you mentioned feeling upset, and you can pause, 294 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: you know, and see what they say. Or you can 295 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 2: add a little nudge like you're feeling upset because and 296 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: pause and again like people will kind of fill in 297 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: the blanks. So those are some of the ways that 298 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: you can deep in and show that engagement at the 299 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: same time. 300 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: Excellent tips. Well, I want to pivot to your more 301 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: recent book because I definitely want listeners to check that 302 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: out as well. The life Audit. What on Earth is 303 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: a life audit? 304 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,479 Speaker 2: Great question? Yes, So the life audit is an exercise 305 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: in self reflection and really getting to know yourself in 306 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: order to essentially architect the life that you want. So 307 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: it's a way of uncovering your deepest wishes, desires, goals, 308 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: and also your core values and essentially looking and seeing, 309 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: like do my core values align with the life that 310 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: I want to live? Am I pursuing the goals, these wishes, 311 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 2: these desires. Have I set my life up in a 312 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: way that I can see these things through? And I 313 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: think it's it's useful for anyone who you know, wants 314 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: to take a step back and sort of reflect on 315 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: where they are in their journey and where they want 316 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: to go. And it's particularly useful if you're at some 317 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: kind of crossroads, like maybe you've just graduated college, maybe 318 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: you've just changed jobs, or you're thinking about changing careers. 319 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: Maybe you've just had a child and that's kind of 320 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: upended your world. So I think there are lots of 321 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 2: moments where this can be useful, and it could also 322 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 2: just be as simple as you know, an annual sort 323 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: of like the new Year, you want to reflect and 324 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 2: see like what do I want to add of this 325 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: year of my life. 326 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: One of the things you suggest people do is come 327 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: up with a hundred wishes that you're putting on post 328 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: it notes, and you give people very limited time to 329 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: come up with these as well. I've often suggested listeners 330 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: do what we call it a list of one hundred 331 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: dreams around here, you know, one hundred things you'd like 332 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: to spend more time doing in your life, or goals 333 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: that will take more time that you want to do. 334 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: But I've never actually forced anyone to do it in 335 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: an hour, so I'm curious about the time limit and 336 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: how you came up with that. 337 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it's useful to have constraints. 338 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: In the same way that it's useful to say, hey, 339 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: aim for a hundred I think it's useful to try 340 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: and do it in an hour. Obviously, this is your life, audit. 341 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 2: If you want to take more time, go ahead and 342 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 2: take more time. You know no one's gonna check up 343 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: on you. But I think that that constraint, it's really 344 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 2: about focusing that time because many of us don't make 345 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: the time to ask these big questions of ourselves. So honestly, 346 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: even an hour kind of feels luxurious if you think 347 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: about it that way, right, But that our time frame 348 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: and using those post its, those are deliberate constraints. Like 349 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: I suggest sticky notes and not you know, an Excel spreadsheet, 350 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: because then you've got a device, and then you've got notifications. 351 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: And I suggest a sticky note with a sharpie because 352 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 2: it forces you to write less. Right, you cannot write 353 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: that much when you're using a sharpie on a three 354 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: by three sticky notes. It forces you to kind of 355 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 2: get to the heart of that wish or desire. So 356 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: all of those constraints are really intentional to help you 357 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: uncover these these deeper desires with the tools that you 358 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 2: already have. 359 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: And do you have a good process for once people 360 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: sort of brainstorm a lot of things that they would 361 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: like to do for giving themselves any sort of timeline 362 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: for achieving these. 363 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the first part of the Life Audit is 364 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 2: really about uncovering those goals and then sort of doing 365 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,479 Speaker 2: an affinity mapping where you're grouping things into themes and 366 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 2: starting to see patterns and saying, wow, I have a 367 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: lot of goals or wishes around health or a lot 368 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: around career, community, whatever it may be. And then the 369 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 2: second part of the book does focus on Okay, you've 370 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 2: got all of these wishes, now how do I prioritize them? 371 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: And what does that look like. And I always like 372 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: to remind people that, you know, whatever plan you come 373 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 2: up with, this is over the course of your life, 374 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: right because it can feel overwhelming to look at everything 375 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 2: and go, oh my god, there's so much that I 376 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 2: want to do. Where do I begin and how quickly 377 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: can I do these things? But it is a pretty long, 378 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 2: you know, timeframe we're talking about. So usually what I 379 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: suggest is that people start to focus on let's say, 380 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 2: three to five things they want to get done in 381 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: the near term, you know, and you can separate it 382 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: out from these are let's say core values. These are 383 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: things that I want to carry with me every day, 384 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: So things like I really want to be patient or generous, 385 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: those are things that are going to live with you 386 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: and you want to carry that every day. But then 387 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: there are also the things that maybe you want to 388 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 2: get done in the next six months, six to twelve months, 389 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 2: let's say. And then there are things like you know, 390 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 2: live abroad that maybe that's something that you'll do in retirement. 391 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 2: Who knows, right, So at least that initial framing of 392 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: is it every day, is it six to twelve months out, 393 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 2: is it much further out? And then from there, once 394 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 2: you pick those, let's say three to five that you 395 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: want to work on. Then you start breaking everything down 396 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 2: into even smaller chunks. Okay, you want to live abroad 397 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: at some point, great, what do you have to do? 398 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: Like do you have to learn a language? Do you 399 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: want to sign up for language classes? Do you want 400 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: to visit that place? Plan a visit first? And so 401 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 2: then you start really getting into the nitty gritty. So 402 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: it's kind of like I'm motioning, nobody can see, but 403 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: it's kind of like a funnel right where you're starting 404 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 2: pretty broad and getting more and more specific because that's 405 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 2: what makes it actionable. 406 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: Yeap, big goals down to doable steps exactly. Well, we're 407 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: going to take one more quick ad break and then 408 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: we'll be back with a little bit more about him 409 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: INA's productivity routines. Well, I am back talking with him 410 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: and Vingoateea about her books on listening, her book on 411 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: the Life Audit. I want to talk about your routines. 412 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: I've always love to hear about what makes people more productive. 413 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: Do you have any particular routines that make you more productive? 414 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? So I always think about it as like every 415 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: person has their personal productivity zone, which is like a 416 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: time of day or a place, an environment, something that 417 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: makes you more productive. And for me, I've always been 418 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: more productive in the morning, and so I design my 419 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: day around that, and I'm very careful about what I 420 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 2: take on in the morning, so I don't do any 421 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: any admin I don't do anything that's sort of like 422 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 2: just responsive in the mornings. The mornings I really reserve 423 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: for strategic work, creative work, that sort of deep thinking 424 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: happens in the morning. And then the afternoons, when I 425 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: know that my body is more tired out and then 426 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: I'm not as sharp, that's when I'm really focusing on 427 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: some of those smaller tasks. So that's one of the 428 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 2: things that I do. And then another thing that I 429 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 2: do is I use a lot of analog tools, So 430 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 2: I have a weekly planner, I have a calendar, I 431 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 2: have a daily to do list, and all of that 432 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 2: is just physical pen and paper where I can chart out, Okay, 433 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: this is what I think I'm doing for the week, 434 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: and then every day, hour by hour, this is what 435 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to try and get done. Especially as someone 436 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: who you know doesn't have a boss to report to 437 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 2: and is in charge of their own deadlines, it's helpful 438 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: to see that kind of laid out like that, where 439 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: you can be a little more realistic about how you're 440 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: going to spend each day without all the device distractions. 441 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: And is this planning process something you kind of do 442 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: on a weekly basis looking to the next week or 443 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: or is it more every day you're looking to the 444 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: next day or to a larger frame of time. I'm 445 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: curious to the cadence of it. 446 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: It's a little bit of boath. So you know, with 447 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 2: a book project, I have targets that I'm trying to meet, 448 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: deadlines that I'm trying to meet, but as you know, 449 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 2: you know, when you're working on a project of that size, 450 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: the deadlines don't always work. But I have so I 451 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: have things that I'm striving toward and then kind of 452 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 2: working backwards. But it can be as simple as you know, 453 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 2: I'm working on a novel right now, and so for 454 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: this week, it was sort of like, Okay, the goal 455 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 2: is to try and revise the first part of the novel. 456 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 2: That's the goal for the week, and then daily I'm 457 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: kind of tracking progress. I'm going, okay, now you're working 458 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: on chapters like seven through nine today, Like that's the 459 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: goal and then hourly it's sort of like, Okay, I 460 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: think chapter seven is going to take three hours, Like, 461 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: let's see how that goes. So it's really kind of 462 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 2: again funneling down from there. 463 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, great, great ideas. What's something you have done recently 464 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: to take a day from great to awesome? 465 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 2: Yeah? I love this question because I think, you know, 466 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: when I was thinking of examples, really they all came 467 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: down to introducing more entropy into my day and taking 468 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 2: more breaks. So, you know, especially having written a book 469 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: on rest, I thought about this a lot of you know, 470 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 2: we're not machines, even though we sometimes feel like we 471 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: ought to be, and constantly producing. For me at least, 472 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: I think for many of us, taking breaks is just 473 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 2: it's like this huge mental unlock. It's a big reset. 474 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 2: And the most exciting breaks for me are the ones 475 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: that are just like a little bit different, things that 476 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 2: don't quote unquote book productive. So having coffee with a 477 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 2: friend who is it's totally unrelated to anything that I'm 478 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: working on, I will leave that feeling so invigorated and 479 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: so energized, even if I didn't you know, talk at 480 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 2: all about work or setting up you know, a writing 481 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: sort of like mini retreat with someone, I'm going to 482 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: get less work done than if I were to do 483 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: it at home alone. But just that little bit of entropy, 484 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: that spark that helps kind of reset things, or even 485 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: just you know, taking an extra long walk with my 486 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 2: dog because it's sunny out. All of those things that 487 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: again on paper, you're like, wow, I just I kind 488 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 2: of ninety minutes of the day there, like probably shouldn't 489 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 2: have done that I find are actually really helpful. That's 490 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: slowing down the act of slowing down. It just does 491 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: something where it's this really important creative mental reset, and 492 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: I often find that that is when I'm solving problems. 493 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: You know, it's like stepping away is really the biggest 494 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 2: thing that I can do. 495 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, we love little adventures around here. It's a good 496 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: way to make a schedule a lot more fun. So 497 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: where can people find you? 498 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have a website Humana Vanguitrea dot com 499 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: and a newsletter where I talk a lot about these 500 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: kinds of topics and that's Jimena dot substack dot com. 501 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: Awesome, Oh, Himana, thank you so much for joining us. 502 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback 503 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: on this, or any other episode. You can always reach 504 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com and in 505 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's 506 00:25:54,680 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening 507 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, 508 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 509 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts 510 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 511 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.