Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
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Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years have been on
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Speaker 1: Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday,
Speaker 1: we explore the live music venues and culture of a
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Speaker 1: building and working at some of the largest companies in
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Speaker 1: to your podcast new details into what was uncovered at
Speaker 1: the gruesome crime scenes in Pike County. The prosecutors began
Speaker 1: their painstaking process of walking through every single piece of evidence,
Speaker 1: focusing on that first home owned by Chris Rodent Senior.
Speaker 1: When you've got to make it through eight homicize your
Speaker 1: dann Riot is going to take a long time because
Speaker 1: each one of those people count each person had a life.
Speaker 1: This has to be one of the most horrific things,
Speaker 1: if not the most horrific knight of this person's life.
Speaker 1: This is the Pikes And Massacre. Returned to Pike County
Speaker 1: season four, episode six, Mountains of Evidence. I'm Courtney Armstrong
Speaker 1: until vision producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. Thus far, George Wagner the fourth trial has
Speaker 1: been both mundane and shocking. It's important to note that
Speaker 1: George Wagner, the fourth currently on trial, has pleaded not
Speaker 1: guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father,
Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not
Speaker 1: guilty to all charges. The prosecution is making its case methodically,
Speaker 1: with hours of testimony, occasionally punctuated with gruesome new details
Speaker 1: of the night in question. The defense has been mostly quiet,
Speaker 1: seemingly waiting for Angie Kannappa and her team to present
Speaker 1: anything dying George Wagner to the crime safely college. Next witness,
Speaker 1: please raise you right hand. You solemnly swear or affirm
Speaker 1: that the testimony you were about to get showing the truth,
Speaker 1: the whole truth, and nothing that's the truth, that you
Speaker 1: shall answer under God, Yes, Sir, I did. Shane Henshaw
Speaker 1: was one of the lead agents for the Ohio Bureau
Speaker 1: of Criminal Investigations, or the CBI. He arrived unseen hours
Speaker 1: after the bodies of Chris Roden Senior and his cousin
Speaker 1: Gary Rodin were discovered. This morning, Andrew Wilson is asking
Speaker 1: the questions for the prosecution's talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: your background or your employment history, taking you up to
Speaker 1: your current employment. So when did you start out in
Speaker 1: law force. I was basically commissioned as a peace officer
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety. The first fifteen minutes of testimony highlight
Speaker 1: Hanshaw's qualifications. He has years of training and crime scene reconstruction,
Speaker 1: ballistics and blood spatter analysis when I first arrived at
Speaker 1: saying you can see here that there's a lot of buildings,
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of things that are primary folks.
Speaker 1: So that the prosecution displays a large photo of Chris
Speaker 1: Roden Senior's property agent Henshaw points out the front yard.
Speaker 1: A tow truck sits outside the home Chris Senior lived
Speaker 1: in where Gary was staying that night. There's an eighteen
Speaker 1: wheeler trailer and an eighty sedan with the front half missing.
Speaker 1: Henshaw began his investigation on the lawn itself. As part
Speaker 1: of your work in this case, did you pluck the
Speaker 1: mountain can it's depicted that picture, Yes, I did. In
Speaker 1: addition to that mountain dew can. Did you find a
Speaker 1: couple other items out front of boards? Your seven seven
Speaker 1: union help writ yes, sir. Once again, you see my
Speaker 1: plaquard number two, the scale plaquard and uh you see
Speaker 1: a cigarette butt or a partial cigarette. But there when
Speaker 1: it comes to testifying, it's clear Handshaw as well practiced.
Speaker 1: He listens intently to every question, then turns deliberately to
Speaker 1: address the jury face to face. As part of your
Speaker 1: work in this case, did you collect that cigarette butt? Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: I did. From everything that I've seen and heard, he
Speaker 1: did an excellent job with it. No question about any
Speaker 1: of the advertage that had been not propered by the state,
Speaker 1: And I think that's a large part because of BCA's professionalism.
Speaker 1: The mountain dew can and cigarette butts contained traces of
Speaker 1: Gary Roden's DNA. Next Handshawn Fortner moved on to the
Speaker 1: exterior of the trailer. Tell us what stood out to
Speaker 1: you when you did that initial look. I noticed that
Speaker 1: there were multiple bullet holes in the front of the house.
Speaker 1: There were six bullet holes in a line moving progressively
Speaker 1: closer to the door. You notice the screen door had
Speaker 1: bullet holes, but the front door did not. Was that correct? Yes,
Speaker 1: I've seen that. That led me to believe that the
Speaker 1: front door was most likely opened when the blood lighting
Speaker 1: event had occurred on the evening of April twenty first,
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. It was clear and breezy and piked in
Speaker 1: temperatures win the low seventies until about seven pm, when
Speaker 1: the wind picked up, dropping the temperature to the high fifties.
Speaker 1: The open door likely provided Chris and Gary with some
Speaker 1: welcomed fresh air. Stephanie and I talk about some of
Speaker 1: the photographs shown in trial and the details they reveal.
Speaker 1: We've heard a lot of reports over the years that
Speaker 1: Chris Sior, Frankie Rodin, and even Chris Jor Rodin worked
Speaker 1: at Big Bear Lake at various times. They operated big equipment.
Speaker 1: We know that Chris sor was said to be building
Speaker 1: patios in and around the area, but we've never been
Speaker 1: able to substantiate those claims essentially until now. Gary Roden,
Speaker 1: Chris Senior, Roden's cousin also worked at Big Bear Lake,
Speaker 1: specifically when he was staying with Chris Rodin, which he
Speaker 1: did on occasion, and this was one of the times
Speaker 1: that he was staying there, you know, working just to
Speaker 1: make a living. Looking at the crime scene, Phoe, we
Speaker 1: can see the clothing that Chris Senior was wearing when
Speaker 1: he was murdered, and he's literally wearing a hooded sweatshirt
Speaker 1: that says big bare leg on it. The question as
Speaker 1: to whether Chris and Gary road and knew their attackers
Speaker 1: or whether they were taken by surprise still remains. Here's
Speaker 1: forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. They had to neutralize
Speaker 1: Chris Senior and Gary the positions that they occupied in
Speaker 1: the family. Chris was known not to back down if
Speaker 1: they did not neutralize them, if they just say, grazed
Speaker 1: him in some way and he was able to retreat,
Speaker 1: or Gary was able to retreat, They had access to
Speaker 1: phones or maybe he had an ability to get out
Speaker 1: of that trailer. They could blow the whole show them
Speaker 1: way because the next thing you know, Dana is aware
Speaker 1: of what's about to happen. Hannah is aware, and her
Speaker 1: trailer were what's going to happen. They couldn't run the
Speaker 1: risk of a mountain these people to get to jump
Speaker 1: on them or to a lurn anybody else. So I
Speaker 1: think that that's why they was Chris's house first and
Speaker 1: neutralize Chris Senior. Injurios same time, prosecuting attorney Wilson brings
Speaker 1: up photos of clean exit holes on the interior wall
Speaker 1: of the trailer. There are torn bits of woods circling
Speaker 1: the holes. What does that indicate to you? It indicates directionality.
Speaker 1: First of all, that whatever object calls that would have
Speaker 1: appeared to be coming from the outside end, because this
Speaker 1: is on the inside or every bull that will be
Speaker 1: tract had characteristics and appeared to come from the front
Speaker 1: of the residence toward the residence and then away from
Speaker 1: the residence. And again, would these consistent with half through
Speaker 1: type shots? Yes, sir, some of the bullets went clean
Speaker 1: through the trailer and out through the opposite wall. Here again,
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, first off, you're talking about a
Speaker 1: mobile home, which is obviously not the most robust structure anyway,
Speaker 1: You've got a projectile that is traveling out into that muzzle,
Speaker 1: and it is supersonic. That means that with a hopowered rifle,
Speaker 1: it is actually traveling faster than speed of sound. That
Speaker 1: little paper thin wall within a mobile home is not
Speaker 1: going to stop one of these high velocity browns. It's
Speaker 1: going to travel through till it strikes another area or
Speaker 1: person that it would have sufficiently slowed it down, and
Speaker 1: so it would have been I think, a moment of
Speaker 1: total chaos and confusion. One photo shows an exit hole
Speaker 1: right next to Walart that says, quote love less forever.
Speaker 1: The jury has shown a diagram of where bullet shards
Speaker 1: were found inside the trailer. There are two on the
Speaker 1: front porch and a bunch around the chair. In Chris
Speaker 1: Senior's living room, a bullet is lodged in a stereo
Speaker 1: speaker as well. In addition to that projectile that you
Speaker 1: just identified from inside the wall, there were there are
Speaker 1: other projectiles in different areas of that living room. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: there's a stack of tan pouches and boxes in front
Speaker 1: of Agent Handshaw. At this point, George Wagner fiddles with
Speaker 1: his goatee. His defense attorney checks his watch. Every bullet
Speaker 1: chart that was collected is painstakingly taken out of its
Speaker 1: corresponding envelope and confirmed by Handshaw as evidence he bagged
Speaker 1: six years ago. Here's James Pilcher, Longcome investigative reporter in
Speaker 1: Cincinnati now with Local twelve, followed by Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of us in the media and
Speaker 1: in the Lake community laming not lawyers are why can't
Speaker 1: they speed this up? Why are they going through every shieldcase?
Speaker 1: I think they're trying to cut the defense off at
Speaker 1: the knees as much as possible to say, we exhausted
Speaker 1: every avenue and came up with this conclusion, and we
Speaker 1: looked at every cigarette butt, and we looked at every
Speaker 1: DNA sample, and we did everything we could. You know,
Speaker 1: we live in a faster food world people. I think
Speaker 1: it even extends out to courtroom. They want things delivered
Speaker 1: to them immediately, and sometimes it takes longer to prepare.
Speaker 1: It certainly takes much longer to make your way through it.
Speaker 1: And that's the case with this we're talking about eight
Speaker 1: dead bodies here, eight in four different locations. Was there
Speaker 1: any evidence that you saw with your eyes, based on
Speaker 1: your knowledge, you're training, your experience, that led you to
Speaker 1: believe that any shots had originated from inside of that trailer.
Speaker 1: Going outside of that trailer, I found nothing at all
Speaker 1: that would indicate that any shots were fired from within
Speaker 1: the house. Going out of the house, my opinion was
Speaker 1: that the shots did occur from outside. I felt that
Speaker 1: they were from the front yard area. Agent Todd Partner
Speaker 1: was brought in to use what is called a Pharaoh
Speaker 1: three D scanner of the entire crime scene, including the exterior.
Speaker 1: Here again Joseph Scott Morgan with the Farrow technology. It
Speaker 1: is a laser that is set up and it's kind
Speaker 1: of hard to describe it. Folks have not seen one.
Speaker 1: It sits on a tripod and it is a can
Speaker 1: to something that you would see along the side of
Speaker 1: the roadway if you've ever seen an individual doing surveying.
Speaker 1: Only the scene is automated and you have the lasers
Speaker 1: that are being essentially blasted out of one portion of
Speaker 1: the unit, and the unit itself is spinning around as
Speaker 1: these lasers are kind of firing off in every different direction.
Speaker 1: The laser is shooting over ten million different points as
Speaker 1: it spins around, and you can capture height, depth, width,
Speaker 1: all of those things that we could normally do with
Speaker 1: a regular SLR unit scene. So it really breeds life
Speaker 1: into this when you're taking a look at it. And
Speaker 1: so when the jury members see this in that courtroom
Speaker 1: in Pike County, Ohio for just a few moments, they're
Speaker 1: transported back in time. Walk us through, what do you
Speaker 1: remember about scanning that scene. We did one scan from
Speaker 1: outside out front where you could see kind of the
Speaker 1: whole front yard, bullet holes in the front of the
Speaker 1: trailer that subsequently we placed trajectory rods in, and to
Speaker 1: measure those, we place spheres on those rods that then
Speaker 1: the scanner can pick up to measure our angles. Trajectory
Speaker 1: rods are poked through bullet holes, giving investigators a general
Speaker 1: idea of the path of the bullet as it passed
Speaker 1: through a surface. He pulls a three D model of
Speaker 1: the entire yard with long lines running into the front yard.
Speaker 1: Based on the angular measurement data. We take the horizontal
Speaker 1: angle the vertical angle, and this is just a line
Speaker 1: drawn between those two spheres a straight line that then
Speaker 1: can be extrapolated back to a possible origin of those shots.
Speaker 1: Based on the data that the farrow scan was telling you,
Speaker 1: was it believed that those shots that went through that
Speaker 1: front door came somewhere from the area just behind that
Speaker 1: bushold They point to a spot in the ground about
Speaker 1: twenty feet from the front door on the front lawn.
Speaker 1: What we do know is there are strikes in the
Speaker 1: front of the porch, so it had to be at
Speaker 1: least there, and where the trajectory lines end on the ground,
Speaker 1: swop couldn't be any further round. Joseph Scott Morgan. These
Speaker 1: rounds appear to be going from below to above, so
Speaker 1: they're rising up essentially from the ground. More than likely
Speaker 1: they would be in a kneeling position. I think folks
Speaker 1: would ask, well, why would you be in a kneeling
Speaker 1: position to do that? Well, you would want to try
Speaker 1: to secure your person as solidly as you possibly can
Speaker 1: because the recoil, and with this particular weapon, there is
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of recoil. Because this is such a
Speaker 1: robust round, you're going to feel it from the moment
Speaker 1: you engage that trigger until that energy transfers through the
Speaker 1: butt of that weapon and into your shoulder. Here's Stephanie.
Speaker 1: We've also heard reports that Senior with expecting Billy Wagner,
Speaker 1: the accused dad, that night. They were apparently going to
Speaker 1: have an important conversation. So what does that mean? Does
Speaker 1: that mean that Billy went up to the front door
Speaker 1: and knocked on it and Chris answered, Could it be
Speaker 1: that they were just surprised? Does the idea of there
Speaker 1: being a person kneeling in wait outside of Chris Senior's
Speaker 1: home in the dark near the woods is such a
Speaker 1: terrifying thought. But we still don't know who that person is,
Speaker 1: which one wasn't. We're going to take a break. We'll
Speaker 1: be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us
Speaker 1: dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke
Speaker 1: several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish.
Speaker 1: He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.
Speaker 1: He choked into the point she went unconscious. Bob could
Speaker 1: lie about of anything, but only takes the one time
Speaker 1: when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends
Speaker 1: know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay
Speaker 1: for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
Speaker 1: the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney. Hell
Speaker 1: is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never
Speaker 1: confronted a situation like this. I just thought it was
Speaker 1: just a really terrible immoral thing, a line they won't cross.
Speaker 1: I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people.
Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you
Speaker 1: find yourself at that line. Thoughts ricin aren't ricin, And
Speaker 1: somebody needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth.
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Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to
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Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app,
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Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning
Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to
Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things. Keep like me have
Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil.
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Speaker 1: that Dobbs, is that like Pearl Harbor, moment gro You
Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get
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Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us,
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Speaker 1: At this point, testimony moves to the inside of the home.
Speaker 1: In the galley, members of the Rodent, Gillie and Manly
Speaker 1: families prepare themselves elves for another day of horrific photos. Geneva,
Speaker 1: Christina's mother sits stoically in the courtroom. Her daughter hands
Speaker 1: her a tissue, even though she isn't crying yet. Now,
Speaker 1: let's talk about blood or biological evidence. At this scene,
Speaker 1: they start with the pools of blood and an around
Speaker 1: a recliner in the living room inside the front door.
Speaker 1: Just from what we saw, it's obvious that you can
Speaker 1: see what you could consider to be origins or a
Speaker 1: place that a person was in when the blood lighting
Speaker 1: event occurred. Did you take some swabs of the blood
Speaker 1: in front of that chair, Yes, sir, I did. Handshaw
Speaker 1: meticulously documented shoeprints in the dried blood in and around
Speaker 1: the area as well. Is it more likely for a
Speaker 1: shoeprint to be tracked or picked up in blood when
Speaker 1: that blood is wet or fresh, as opposed to dry
Speaker 1: a pool. Absolutely, yes, you said when you very first
Speaker 1: observed these footprints, they were already drying the blood. Is
Speaker 1: that correct? Yes, they were, So you talk about preserving
Speaker 1: it documented, how do you go through actually photographing it
Speaker 1: and then ultimately collecting any shoeprints in this scene, Yes,
Speaker 1: they we're all photographed and documented as they were, as
Speaker 1: they were when they were filmed. And when you talk
Speaker 1: about detail, what's standing out to you where you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: they may be able to do something for this. What's
Speaker 1: actually standing out to me at that particular time was
Speaker 1: the fact that can I stand again, please, in this
Speaker 1: area of the shoe, I'm not seeing any kind of
Speaker 1: wear pattern at all. That meant something to me. The
Speaker 1: shupernt evidence could not be shown to anyone outside the
Speaker 1: courtroom because Judge Steering ordered media not to show any
Speaker 1: photos that included blood. Sitting through this testimony, victims families
Speaker 1: are of course emotional. One family member looks down, not
Speaker 1: wanting to see what comes next. Here again, James Filcher
Speaker 1: don't want to shock the jury, but they also don't
Speaker 1: want to offend the family. There's been some serious tension
Speaker 1: between the media and the family and the prosecution that's
Speaker 1: borne out on some of these motions and some of
Speaker 1: these other things. That we're seeing because we think everything
Speaker 1: should be shown. I mean, blood is blood, they're bloody
Speaker 1: crime scenes. This is what happened. You gotta know how
Speaker 1: these people died. You got to see it. I mean
Speaker 1: it's part of a murder trial and there's eight victims,
Speaker 1: all shot multiple times, so it's part of the deal.
Speaker 1: In this same area of the living room, you identify
Speaker 1: that as being on the floor. Did you also find
Speaker 1: what appeared to be blood's flatter on the wall? Yes,
Speaker 1: we did. Is there anything that sticks out the end
Speaker 1: with respect any personality of that blood or even that
Speaker 1: First of all, there's a lot of blood stains on
Speaker 1: this wall, and in my training that all of these
Speaker 1: stains from what I see are descending stains, which means
Speaker 1: they are traveling down when they struck this wall. Here again,
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, that is an indication of a lot
Speaker 1: of anger, because you would think that anybody that was
Speaker 1: familiar enough with firearms that would show up into some
Speaker 1: con environment would also know what kind of forces being
Speaker 1: brought there. With just one shot, you should be able
Speaker 1: to recognize that you don't really need that many, But
Speaker 1: for some reason, the perpetrator found it necessary to lay
Speaker 1: into Chris Senior, specifically to make sure that he was
Speaker 1: totally completely eradicated that he would not rise again. How
Speaker 1: did you take that slab? Where'd you submitted to and
Speaker 1: was that eventually submitted to the lab for DNA testing.
Speaker 1: I believe that eventually it was submitted for DNA testing
Speaker 1: to determine actually which victim's blood. This was the swabs
Speaker 1: from the staining contained in that exhibit. The living room
Speaker 1: of four zero seven seven Union Hill Road, also depicted
Speaker 1: in photo ID number eighteen, tested positive for blood and
Speaker 1: the DNA profile of the blood from this swab contains
Speaker 1: Chris Rodent Senior's DNA. One family member burries are facing
Speaker 1: their hands, another covers her mouth and wipes away tears.
Speaker 1: If Chris Senior was still alive lying on the floor
Speaker 1: at the next bit of evidence may explain what happened
Speaker 1: in the last moments of his life. As you were
Speaker 1: doing your examination of this area, did you also find
Speaker 1: a projectile strike in the floor by that rocker recliment, Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: it was quite some time later before that we were
Speaker 1: at a point in our processing and our investigation that
Speaker 1: I was able to move that chair. When we did
Speaker 1: move the chair. That's when it was we noticed that
Speaker 1: there was a bullet hole, or a suspected bullet hole
Speaker 1: in the floor right next to the chair. It appeared
Speaker 1: that it was going from above down. We knew that
Speaker 1: it came from inside going down toward the floor, and
Speaker 1: assumed that it may have exited under the mobile home.
Speaker 1: Todd Fortner explains further, and at some point, did you
Speaker 1: actually use rods to try to determine the angle that
Speaker 1: that bullet may have gone through that floor? Yes, it's
Speaker 1: a fairly steep downward angle, so the muzzle of the
Speaker 1: weapon was fairly close. A second hole was found here
Speaker 1: and the rod then will extend downward through that hole.
Speaker 1: And did you find again that second hole to be
Speaker 1: in line or intrajectory with that first hole that you
Speaker 1: accept the riding Yes? Were you able to track that
Speaker 1: hole through that joice beneath that trailer, Yes, we were
Speaker 1: able to track it down into the ground. At that point,
Speaker 1: another agent Durst, crawled under the trailer and recovered one
Speaker 1: of the bullets. What did you notice about that projectile
Speaker 1: with didn't go It was a hollow point appeared to
Speaker 1: be a pistol projectile that had not expanded. Basically, the
Speaker 1: way a hollow point bullet works is a softer substance.
Speaker 1: Human tissue is designed to go in and expand those
Speaker 1: metal pedals out in order to create a larger wound track.
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, most people when they think of a
Speaker 1: bullet projectile, they'll think of what'll refer to as a
Speaker 1: ball ammunition. That's a bullet that kind of has a
Speaker 1: rounded nose on it. That's kind of the traditional image
Speaker 1: that you think about. So if you have a forty
Speaker 1: caliber round that's being fired out of a weapon, forty
Speaker 1: caliber is pretty much much what you're going to get
Speaker 1: with ball ammunition that can deform and all those sorts
Speaker 1: of things, but the diameter of the round is not
Speaker 1: going to change that much. However, when you start talking
Speaker 1: about a hollow point, what happens is that once that
Speaker 1: round passes out of the end of the muzzle and
Speaker 1: it winds up on its targeted area, these little the
Speaker 1: only way I can really describe it, are these little
Speaker 1: wings essentially kind of deploy. You have a forty caliber
Speaker 1: round that suddenly deploys out upwards a forty five caliber
Speaker 1: Fortner explains why the bullets they found didn't deploy. If
Speaker 1: it hits something hard, for instance, would concrete, potentially even bone,
Speaker 1: before hitting enough of a quantity of soft tissue to expand,
Speaker 1: it will basically just dent the front of it and
Speaker 1: it will keep going and would basically become a non
Speaker 1: hollow point projectile. Of the non training experience that I
Speaker 1: didn't hit like soft tissue, the bullets themselves kind of
Speaker 1: speak to you as a crom scene investigator, I do
Speaker 1: recall something where the actual sequencing of the gunfire tells
Speaker 1: a story this vividly because you give an idea of
Speaker 1: when this horror is just visited upon Chris Senior along
Speaker 1: with Gary, there's an awareness, I think you know that
Speaker 1: the world is kind of blown apart in the side
Speaker 1: of this home. His arm was mangled, and so he's
Speaker 1: writhing in pain on the floor, and then you see
Speaker 1: these other rounds that come from another weapon and they
Speaker 1: pump them into his body and his life ends right
Speaker 1: there on the floor. Sadly, it seems Gary Roden suffered
Speaker 1: a similarly terrifying end. Agent Henshaw found his glasses and
Speaker 1: baseball cap nearby in the kitchen. Hanshaw opens another envelope
Speaker 1: and pulls out Gary Roden's bloodstained hat. As you examined
Speaker 1: that hole or perforation from the outside, did you notice
Speaker 1: any blowout or any frame of that hole on the
Speaker 1: back there that indicated that it was an exit wound
Speaker 1: as opposed to an entrance hole. Appeared to be what
Speaker 1: I initially thought it could be. Okay, well, let me
Speaker 1: ask you this. At some point, did you later learn
Speaker 1: that when that item was being examined, a possible piece
Speaker 1: of a projectile fell out it. Yes, we're able to
Speaker 1: look at that hat and possibly track where that bullet
Speaker 1: had actually come out at the front of the hat.
Speaker 1: At this point, George Wagner's face read and he clenches
Speaker 1: his jaw, and again, does it appear that that area
Speaker 1: of the hat had been pulled or torn or ripped
Speaker 1: away from the half the bill area there? Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: it does here again, investigative reporter James Pilcher, followed by
Speaker 1: medical forensics examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. Somebody shot Gary Roding
Speaker 1: in the back of the head. The bullet went through
Speaker 1: his head and then knocked his cap off, and the
Speaker 1: bullet lodged in the bill of his cap. Once hell
Speaker 1: begins to rain down. You know where all of this
Speaker 1: is occurring. The door bust open. How did he react
Speaker 1: at that moment? Top Was he in total shock? Did
Speaker 1: he have an awareness? Did he know that Chris Seniors
Speaker 1: screamed out as his arm was kind of blown apart?
Speaker 1: Did he rushed to his side? And we don't really
Speaker 1: know that part, but in my mind, I'll imagine that
Speaker 1: you know the same person that exerted domin over Chris Senior.
Speaker 1: Potentially it would have been very easy, as Gary is
Speaker 1: kind of tending to this dear family member, is for
Speaker 1: somebody to have just simply ended his life execution style
Speaker 1: as he stands over and pumps this round into the
Speaker 1: back of his head. Can you tell us what we're
Speaker 1: looking at and where we're heading there? A two, one four.
Speaker 1: We'll be standing in this general area again, this being
Speaker 1: the kitchen chairs here, and you're beginning to see blood patterns.
Speaker 1: At some point, did you continue to move through that
Speaker 1: residence back towards the back bedroom where the body's were, Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: I did He found Chris and Gary at the foot
Speaker 1: of the bed covered in a blanket. After taking photos
Speaker 1: of the entire room, Hanshaw carefully removed the blanket to
Speaker 1: further document the bodies. You tell us it's depicted in
Speaker 1: this picture, and what you're trying to show, trying to
Speaker 1: show the original position of the hands of the victim.
Speaker 1: The victims family members are having an incredibly hard time
Speaker 1: with the graphic photos. Someone allowed themselves to look up
Speaker 1: at the screen where the photos are being projected. Others
Speaker 1: weep openly. A four to fifty once again, as a
Speaker 1: photograph of our victim's hand, showing obviously blood and some
Speaker 1: the condition of the clothing as well. Okay, when we're
Speaker 1: talking victim is just the first victim, Chris Rodin, Yes,
Speaker 1: it is. When you look at his body position, did
Speaker 1: you find his arms to be up over his head
Speaker 1: and his sweatshirt rolled back over his head. Yes. When
Speaker 1: they got to Gary and Chris Senior's bodies to do
Speaker 1: their examinations, their hands were above their heads, the shirts
Speaker 1: sweatshirts were pushed up. Now for us, that's an indication
Speaker 1: that a body has been drug Yes, this would be
Speaker 1: the arm of Gary Rodin, and it extends out parallel
Speaker 1: with the bed and there's saturation stains or a large
Speaker 1: amount of blood on the exterior of the jacket. In
Speaker 1: that photograph, you can see a lot of blood around
Speaker 1: the mouth and those discoloration around the eyes, and then
Speaker 1: what I thought appeared to be a bullet hole near
Speaker 1: the ear. And did you continue to document or get
Speaker 1: closer pictures of what you believed to be a bullet hole, Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: I did. What is the purpose of taking those pictures
Speaker 1: with respect to that body at the seat? I want
Speaker 1: to document this as much as possible. I can't control
Speaker 1: what anybody else does after these bodies are taken out
Speaker 1: of my care or after I'm going, so I want
Speaker 1: to document them as they were, as I found them
Speaker 1: to essentially settle back and understand. Anything that I do
Speaker 1: with the bodies, I can move it slightly and it
Speaker 1: takes it completely out of context. So he was probably directed,
Speaker 1: tell your people to take the bodies out this specific way,
Speaker 1: and you know when it comes to Christine or and Gary,
Speaker 1: that's important. Hanshaw testifies that along with the photographs, his
Speaker 1: team took hundreds of blood sample swabs from the home
Speaker 1: and the bodies of Chris and Gary Rodin. They also
Speaker 1: used what is called a forensic vacuum. Tell the jury
Speaker 1: what a forensic vacuum is and how a forensic vacuum works.
Speaker 1: That's relatively sample. We have a small vacuum that are
Speaker 1: designated for that purpose, and that purpose only would be
Speaker 1: to look for trace evidends such as hairs, fibers, anything
Speaker 1: residual that might have been left behind them there. We
Speaker 1: would seal that bag and then I normally would put
Speaker 1: that bag in another bag and put my label and
Speaker 1: my signature on. If I'm wearing a mask of hood
Speaker 1: and gloves, is that going to impede my DNA from
Speaker 1: going somewhere where you're going to vacuum it up with
Speaker 1: your forensic vacuum. Yes, it can. If Eady Wilson drags
Speaker 1: those bodies to the back of the bedroom and I've
Speaker 1: got gloves on, Am I gonna leave touch DNA? Most
Speaker 1: likely not, But you do that anyways just in case.
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yes, at that particular time, you have
Speaker 1: no idea if a suspect was wearing gloves or not
Speaker 1: wearing gloves. Here's Jeff speaking with Joseph Scott Morgan. Here
Speaker 1: we are a couple of weeks into the trial. The
Speaker 1: prosecution still has this a DNA problem. The more cases
Speaker 1: that cover personally the more I hear this cry, you know,
Speaker 1: from the public, where's the DNA? Was the DNA? Jurors
Speaker 1: walk in and they are expecting DNA in every single case,
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, that's not accurate. It's not going to
Speaker 1: happen every single time. You know, if you have a
Speaker 1: barrier between your hand and surface that you place that
Speaker 1: hand upon, there is not much of an opportunity for
Speaker 1: you to shed these dead skin cells that will have
Speaker 1: an incomplete strand of DNA in them. It makes it
Speaker 1: difficult for the prosecution. Let's stop here for another break. Oh.
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends.
Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, he
Speaker 1: was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted to the point she went unconscious.
Speaker 1: Bob could lie about of anything, but only takes the
Speaker 1: one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,
Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him
Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put
Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw
Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call
Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister.
Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can
Speaker 1: listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney
Speaker 1: hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd
Speaker 1: never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it
Speaker 1: was just a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they
Speaker 1: won't cross. I was stunned and I just said, no,
Speaker 1: we're killing people. You may never have to face that
Speaker 1: decision when find yourself at that line. Thout ricin, arn't ricin,
Speaker 1: And somebody needs to just for once give everybody the
Speaker 1: whole truth. This is evil and the only person who
Speaker 1: can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going
Speaker 1: to sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts. These are the whistleblowers.
Speaker 1: If you are disloyal, things are going to happen. To
Speaker 1: speak out disgrace to our gun. Evil play should be prosecute.
Speaker 1: When power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense.
Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to The Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning
Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to
Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things. People like me have
Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil.
Speaker 1: They will take things away, and I can only hope
Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl. You
Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get
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Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know,
Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills.
Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said,
Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking
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Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcast, be sure to subscribe and share.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Bad Manners. This is the podcast
Speaker 1: that takes you inside britain stately homes and tells all
Speaker 1: the tales the guide books don't. My name is Tom
Speaker 1: Burton and I'll be your host. Britain is riddled with
Speaker 1: the big houses, from crumbling castles, massive mansions and stately
Speaker 1: piles bigger than bucking and Palace. As a comedian, I'm
Speaker 1: not really bothered about the facts and figures. I just
Speaker 1: want the juicy stuff. So I'm on a mission to
Speaker 1: find out the frightening, filthy and downright jaw dropping stories
Speaker 1: of these stately homes and the people in them. This
Speaker 1: podcast ventures deep inside some of Britain's most incredible and
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Speaker 1: shocking and hilarious tales. So if you want to get
Speaker 1: historically horrid, royally raucous, and downt and dirty, look no further.
Speaker 1: Listen to Bad Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. After hours of testimony
Speaker 1: centered on blood and projectile evidence in the home, the
Speaker 1: prosecution turns to Chris Senior Garage and the space above it.
Speaker 1: Investigator Henshaw was initially drawn to the security cameras we
Speaker 1: thought it appeared as though it were pointing toward the residents. Okay,
Speaker 1: at some point, did that pique your interest to try
Speaker 1: to go find a DDR or recording device that might
Speaker 1: be linked to that gammer. Yes, we attempted to look
Speaker 1: for any kind of recording device that would have maybe
Speaker 1: documented what happened or given us some idea will trace
Speaker 1: the wires back. They led inside and we found nothing,
Speaker 1: no recording device connected to this system. They tested the
Speaker 1: disconnected wires for DNA in case the perpetrators had handled them.
Speaker 1: There was nothing. But the door into the building also
Speaker 1: stood out to h and Handshaw. Did you examine that
Speaker 1: door a little more further for other evidence or the
Speaker 1: possibility about dents. Two things stood out to me. One
Speaker 1: as it appeared as though there was forced entry, I
Speaker 1: would would be consistent with the door handle lying on
Speaker 1: the upper surface of the porch. And the second thing
Speaker 1: is that appeared to be a transfer, a small transfer
Speaker 1: of blood on the exterior face of that door. This
Speaker 1: doesn't look like a spatter pattern. It looks like a
Speaker 1: transfer pattern. The difference would be a transfer would be
Speaker 1: if I had blood on my hand and I touched
Speaker 1: this paper or something else and then moved it away,
Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't leave blood that I transferred from my
Speaker 1: hand onto that surface. Did you eventually take steps to
Speaker 1: identify that according to your BCI numbers and try to
Speaker 1: collect that blood for further testing? Yes, those swabs were
Speaker 1: sent to the lab for testing that stain. Are those
Speaker 1: swabs tested positive for the presence of blood and the
Speaker 1: blood contained in those swabs contained the DNA of Gary Road.
Speaker 1: The defense has a few questions for either of the
Speaker 1: BCI agents, but they do offer one final stipulation. When
Speaker 1: things are stipulated to, it is an agreement that's entered
Speaker 1: into between defense counsel and prosecution that they will stipulate
Speaker 1: to that bit of evidence, that they're not going to
Speaker 1: argue it, they're not going to debate it during this time.
Speaker 1: The parties have another stipulation, all right, put that on
Speaker 1: the record. Ent. Yes, the parties will stipulate and agree
Speaker 1: that with respect to four zero seven seven Union Hill Road,
Speaker 1: none of the evidence collected or examined with respect to
Speaker 1: that scene contained any DNA that was linked to George Wagner,
Speaker 1: this defendant Jake Wagner, Angela Wagner, or Billy Wagner. That's correct.
Speaker 1: That's the voice of Special Prosecutor Andrew Wilson conceding there
Speaker 1: was no DNA evidence linking any of the Wagner family
Speaker 1: to the site where relatives found Chris Roden Senior and
Speaker 1: his cousin Gary dead in April twenty sixteen. There's no
Speaker 1: DNA Avidage. People who were not involved in the system,
Speaker 1: it's the first thing out of their mouth. Well, d
Speaker 1: DNA Avidage. Well, for me, the shoe prints till everything.
Speaker 1: We've been using shoe prints for over one hundred years now.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's been accepted in courtrooms in a lot
Speaker 1: of different places as valid science. It was a massacre,
Speaker 1: but it didn't seem as though they went back to
Speaker 1: kind of cover their traces. I think they did take
Speaker 1: a lot of steps. But there's no such thing as
Speaker 1: the perfect crime. The term criminal mastermind is kind of
Speaker 1: an exymoron because criminals generally aren't masterminds, and they often
Speaker 1: make mistakes which leads in that convict and this is
Speaker 1: one of those examples. More on that next time. For
Speaker 1: more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masker
Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Scott de Graw,
Speaker 1: Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and
Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Ta Music by Jared Aston. The
Speaker 1: Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast
Speaker 1: called The girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties,
Speaker 1: and it is time to find a husband. There were
Speaker 1: four Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors.
Speaker 1: One of them one of the spot barremout. On paper
Speaker 1: he was perfect, but in reality, this guy is a wacome.
Speaker 1: He shouted to the point she went unconscious. I would
Speaker 1: call him and I would say, I know you killed
Speaker 1: my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: I'm will daily for years have been on the road,
Speaker 1: playing shows and seeing America through live music. This summer,
Speaker 1: I'll hit the stage season two of Sound of Our
Speaker 1: Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, we explore
Speaker 1: the live music, venues and culture of a new American city.
Speaker 1: With each new episode, our tour continues into the kind
Speaker 1: of venues you want to get to when you landed
Speaker 1: in Detroit, Providence, Denver or Seattle. Listen to Sound of
Speaker 1: Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Right, I'm Freedom and I'm Marthy.
Speaker 1: We have spent the last twenty years building and working
Speaker 1: at some of the largest companies in the world. We
Speaker 1: worked with some remarkable people. Rob mcalinney. When I see
Speaker 1: the people of Wrexham, I grew up exactly like them.
Speaker 1: Check out the Art and Treeom show. That is a
Speaker 1: R D HI and S R I R A M Show.
Speaker 1: Listen to the Art Instrie Arm Show on the iHeart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: This is the story of a man who's fascinated me.
Speaker 1: His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name
Speaker 1: you don't forget. He was a visionary who built a
Speaker 1: fortune as a black man during Jim Crow during the Depression,
Speaker 1: but today not many people know about him. The race
Speaker 1: sort of wiped out, and I wonder if this was
Speaker 1: done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.