1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years have been on 20 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: the road playing shows and seeing America through live music 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: this summer, I'll hit the stage who Season two of 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: we explore the live music venues and culture of a 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 25 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: into the kind of venues you want to get to 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver or Seattle. Listen 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 28 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hart, I'm Freedom 29 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: and I'm Rthie. We have spent the last twenty years 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: building and working at some of the largest companies in 31 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: the world. We worked with some remarkable people. Rob mcalinney. 32 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: When I see the people of Wrexham, I grew up 33 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: exactly like them. Check out the Art and Trurom show. 34 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: That is a R d HI and sr Hi r 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: M show. Listen to the Arc the Industry I'm show 36 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast Oh. Whenever you get 37 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: to your podcast new details into what was uncovered at 38 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: the gruesome crime scenes in Pike County. The prosecutors began 39 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: their painstaking process of walking through every single piece of evidence, 40 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: focusing on that first home owned by Chris Rodent Senior. 41 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: When you've got to make it through eight homicize your 42 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: dann Riot is going to take a long time because 43 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: each one of those people count each person had a life. 44 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: This has to be one of the most horrific things, 45 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: if not the most horrific knight of this person's life. 46 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: This is the Pikes And Massacre. Returned to Pike County 47 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: season four, episode six, Mountains of Evidence. I'm Courtney Armstrong 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: until vision producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and 49 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. Thus far, George Wagner the fourth trial has 50 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: been both mundane and shocking. It's important to note that 51 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: George Wagner, the fourth currently on trial, has pleaded not 52 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not 54 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: guilty to all charges. The prosecution is making its case methodically, 55 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: with hours of testimony, occasionally punctuated with gruesome new details 56 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: of the night in question. The defense has been mostly quiet, 57 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: seemingly waiting for Angie Kannappa and her team to present 58 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: anything dying George Wagner to the crime safely college. Next witness, 59 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: please raise you right hand. You solemnly swear or affirm 60 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: that the testimony you were about to get showing the truth, 61 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: the whole truth, and nothing that's the truth, that you 62 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: shall answer under God, Yes, Sir, I did. Shane Henshaw 63 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: was one of the lead agents for the Ohio Bureau 64 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: of Criminal Investigations, or the CBI. He arrived unseen hours 65 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: after the bodies of Chris Roden Senior and his cousin 66 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: Gary Rodin were discovered. This morning, Andrew Wilson is asking 67 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: the questions for the prosecution's talk a little bit about 68 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: your background or your employment history, taking you up to 69 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: your current employment. So when did you start out in 70 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: law force. I was basically commissioned as a peace officer 71 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety. The first fifteen minutes of testimony highlight 72 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: Hanshaw's qualifications. He has years of training and crime scene reconstruction, 73 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: ballistics and blood spatter analysis when I first arrived at 74 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: saying you can see here that there's a lot of buildings, 75 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of things that are primary folks. 76 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: So that the prosecution displays a large photo of Chris 77 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: Roden Senior's property agent Henshaw points out the front yard. 78 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: A tow truck sits outside the home Chris Senior lived 79 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: in where Gary was staying that night. There's an eighteen 80 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: wheeler trailer and an eighty sedan with the front half missing. 81 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: Henshaw began his investigation on the lawn itself. As part 82 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: of your work in this case, did you pluck the 83 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: mountain can it's depicted that picture, Yes, I did. In 84 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: addition to that mountain dew can. Did you find a 85 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: couple other items out front of boards? Your seven seven 86 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: union help writ yes, sir. Once again, you see my 87 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: plaquard number two, the scale plaquard and uh you see 88 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: a cigarette butt or a partial cigarette. But there when 89 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: it comes to testifying, it's clear Handshaw as well practiced. 90 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: He listens intently to every question, then turns deliberately to 91 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: address the jury face to face. As part of your 92 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: work in this case, did you collect that cigarette butt? Yes, sir, 93 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: I did. From everything that I've seen and heard, he 94 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: did an excellent job with it. No question about any 95 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: of the advertage that had been not propered by the state, 96 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: And I think that's a large part because of BCA's professionalism. 97 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: The mountain dew can and cigarette butts contained traces of 98 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: Gary Roden's DNA. Next Handshawn Fortner moved on to the 99 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: exterior of the trailer. Tell us what stood out to 100 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: you when you did that initial look. I noticed that 101 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: there were multiple bullet holes in the front of the house. 102 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: There were six bullet holes in a line moving progressively 103 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: closer to the door. You notice the screen door had 104 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: bullet holes, but the front door did not. Was that correct? Yes, 105 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: I've seen that. That led me to believe that the 106 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: front door was most likely opened when the blood lighting 107 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: event had occurred on the evening of April twenty first, 108 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. It was clear and breezy and piked in 109 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: temperatures win the low seventies until about seven pm, when 110 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: the wind picked up, dropping the temperature to the high fifties. 111 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: The open door likely provided Chris and Gary with some 112 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: welcomed fresh air. Stephanie and I talk about some of 113 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: the photographs shown in trial and the details they reveal. 114 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: We've heard a lot of reports over the years that 115 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: Chris Sior, Frankie Rodin, and even Chris Jor Rodin worked 116 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: at Big Bear Lake at various times. They operated big equipment. 117 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: We know that Chris sor was said to be building 118 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: patios in and around the area, but we've never been 119 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: able to substantiate those claims essentially until now. Gary Roden, 120 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: Chris Senior, Roden's cousin also worked at Big Bear Lake, 121 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: specifically when he was staying with Chris Rodin, which he 122 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: did on occasion, and this was one of the times 123 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: that he was staying there, you know, working just to 124 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: make a living. Looking at the crime scene, Phoe, we 125 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: can see the clothing that Chris Senior was wearing when 126 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: he was murdered, and he's literally wearing a hooded sweatshirt 127 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: that says big bare leg on it. The question as 128 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: to whether Chris and Gary road and knew their attackers 129 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: or whether they were taken by surprise still remains. Here's 130 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. They had to neutralize 131 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: Chris Senior and Gary the positions that they occupied in 132 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: the family. Chris was known not to back down if 133 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: they did not neutralize them, if they just say, grazed 134 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: him in some way and he was able to retreat, 135 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 1: or Gary was able to retreat, They had access to 136 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: phones or maybe he had an ability to get out 137 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: of that trailer. They could blow the whole show them 138 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: way because the next thing you know, Dana is aware 139 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: of what's about to happen. Hannah is aware, and her 140 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 1: trailer were what's going to happen. They couldn't run the 141 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: risk of a mountain these people to get to jump 142 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: on them or to a lurn anybody else. So I 143 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 1: think that that's why they was Chris's house first and 144 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: neutralize Chris Senior. Injurios same time, prosecuting attorney Wilson brings 145 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: up photos of clean exit holes on the interior wall 146 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: of the trailer. There are torn bits of woods circling 147 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: the holes. What does that indicate to you? It indicates directionality. 148 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: First of all, that whatever object calls that would have 149 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: appeared to be coming from the outside end, because this 150 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: is on the inside or every bull that will be 151 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: tract had characteristics and appeared to come from the front 152 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: of the residence toward the residence and then away from 153 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: the residence. And again, would these consistent with half through 154 00:09:54,320 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: type shots? Yes, sir, some of the bullets went clean 155 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: through the trailer and out through the opposite wall. Here again, 156 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, first off, you're talking about a 157 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: mobile home, which is obviously not the most robust structure anyway, 158 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: You've got a projectile that is traveling out into that muzzle, 159 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: and it is supersonic. That means that with a hopowered rifle, 160 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: it is actually traveling faster than speed of sound. That 161 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: little paper thin wall within a mobile home is not 162 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: going to stop one of these high velocity browns. It's 163 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: going to travel through till it strikes another area or 164 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: person that it would have sufficiently slowed it down, and 165 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: so it would have been I think, a moment of 166 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: total chaos and confusion. One photo shows an exit hole 167 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: right next to Walart that says, quote love less forever. 168 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: The jury has shown a diagram of where bullet shards 169 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: were found inside the trailer. There are two on the 170 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: front porch and a bunch around the chair. In Chris 171 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: Senior's living room, a bullet is lodged in a stereo 172 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: speaker as well. In addition to that projectile that you 173 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: just identified from inside the wall, there were there are 174 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: other projectiles in different areas of that living room. Yes, okay, 175 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: there's a stack of tan pouches and boxes in front 176 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: of Agent Handshaw. At this point, George Wagner fiddles with 177 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: his goatee. His defense attorney checks his watch. Every bullet 178 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: chart that was collected is painstakingly taken out of its 179 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: corresponding envelope and confirmed by Handshaw as evidence he bagged 180 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: six years ago. Here's James Pilcher, Longcome investigative reporter in 181 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: Cincinnati now with Local twelve, followed by Joseph Scott Morgan. 182 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of us in the media and 183 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: in the Lake community laming not lawyers are why can't 184 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: they speed this up? Why are they going through every shieldcase? 185 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: I think they're trying to cut the defense off at 186 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,239 Speaker 1: the knees as much as possible to say, we exhausted 187 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: every avenue and came up with this conclusion, and we 188 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: looked at every cigarette butt, and we looked at every 189 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: DNA sample, and we did everything we could. You know, 190 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: we live in a faster food world people. I think 191 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: it even extends out to courtroom. They want things delivered 192 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: to them immediately, and sometimes it takes longer to prepare. 193 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: It certainly takes much longer to make your way through it. 194 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: And that's the case with this we're talking about eight 195 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: dead bodies here, eight in four different locations. Was there 196 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: any evidence that you saw with your eyes, based on 197 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: your knowledge, you're training, your experience, that led you to 198 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: believe that any shots had originated from inside of that trailer. 199 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: Going outside of that trailer, I found nothing at all 200 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: that would indicate that any shots were fired from within 201 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: the house. Going out of the house, my opinion was 202 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: that the shots did occur from outside. I felt that 203 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: they were from the front yard area. Agent Todd Partner 204 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: was brought in to use what is called a Pharaoh 205 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: three D scanner of the entire crime scene, including the exterior. 206 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: Here again Joseph Scott Morgan with the Farrow technology. It 207 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: is a laser that is set up and it's kind 208 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 1: of hard to describe it. Folks have not seen one. 209 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: It sits on a tripod and it is a can 210 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 1: to something that you would see along the side of 211 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: the roadway if you've ever seen an individual doing surveying. 212 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: Only the scene is automated and you have the lasers 213 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: that are being essentially blasted out of one portion of 214 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: the unit, and the unit itself is spinning around as 215 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: these lasers are kind of firing off in every different direction. 216 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: The laser is shooting over ten million different points as 217 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: it spins around, and you can capture height, depth, width, 218 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: all of those things that we could normally do with 219 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: a regular SLR unit scene. So it really breeds life 220 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: into this when you're taking a look at it. And 221 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: so when the jury members see this in that courtroom 222 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: in Pike County, Ohio for just a few moments, they're 223 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: transported back in time. Walk us through, what do you 224 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: remember about scanning that scene. We did one scan from 225 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: outside out front where you could see kind of the 226 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: whole front yard, bullet holes in the front of the 227 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: trailer that subsequently we placed trajectory rods in, and to 228 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: measure those, we place spheres on those rods that then 229 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: the scanner can pick up to measure our angles. Trajectory 230 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: rods are poked through bullet holes, giving investigators a general 231 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: idea of the path of the bullet as it passed 232 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: through a surface. He pulls a three D model of 233 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: the entire yard with long lines running into the front yard. 234 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: Based on the angular measurement data. We take the horizontal 235 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: angle the vertical angle, and this is just a line 236 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: drawn between those two spheres a straight line that then 237 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: can be extrapolated back to a possible origin of those shots. 238 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: Based on the data that the farrow scan was telling you, 239 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: was it believed that those shots that went through that 240 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: front door came somewhere from the area just behind that 241 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: bushold They point to a spot in the ground about 242 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: twenty feet from the front door on the front lawn. 243 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: What we do know is there are strikes in the 244 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: front of the porch, so it had to be at 245 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: least there, and where the trajectory lines end on the ground, 246 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: swop couldn't be any further round. Joseph Scott Morgan. These 247 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: rounds appear to be going from below to above, so 248 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: they're rising up essentially from the ground. More than likely 249 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: they would be in a kneeling position. I think folks 250 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: would ask, well, why would you be in a kneeling 251 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: position to do that? Well, you would want to try 252 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: to secure your person as solidly as you possibly can 253 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: because the recoil, and with this particular weapon, there is 254 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of recoil. Because this is such a 255 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: robust round, you're going to feel it from the moment 256 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: you engage that trigger until that energy transfers through the 257 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: butt of that weapon and into your shoulder. Here's Stephanie. 258 00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: We've also heard reports that Senior with expecting Billy Wagner, 259 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: the accused dad, that night. They were apparently going to 260 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 1: have an important conversation. So what does that mean? Does 261 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: that mean that Billy went up to the front door 262 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: and knocked on it and Chris answered, Could it be 263 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: that they were just surprised? Does the idea of there 264 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: being a person kneeling in wait outside of Chris Senior's 265 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: home in the dark near the woods is such a 266 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: terrifying thought. But we still don't know who that person is, 267 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: which one wasn't. We're going to take a break. We'll 268 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher and 269 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in 270 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us 271 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke 272 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. 273 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't. 274 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: He choked into the point she went unconscious. Bob could 275 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: lie about of anything, but only takes the one time 276 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends 277 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay 278 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 279 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 280 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 281 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 282 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 283 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 284 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney. Hell 285 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never 286 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: confronted a situation like this. I just thought it was 287 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: just a really terrible immoral thing, a line they won't cross. 288 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. 289 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 290 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: find yourself at that line. Thoughts ricin aren't ricin, And 291 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: somebody needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth. 292 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: Probably this is evil, and the only person who can 293 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to 294 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. 295 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: If you are disloyal, things are going to happen to 296 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: speak out disgrace to our good. Evil play should be 297 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: prosecute when power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. 298 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, 299 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's 300 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of 301 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning 302 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to 303 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things. Keep like me have 304 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. 305 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil. 306 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: They will take things away. And I can only hope 307 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: that Dobbs, is that like Pearl Harbor, moment gro You 308 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get 309 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: through the day in New York City and get home 310 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: in one piece. And so the fact that we're here 311 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 312 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 313 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 314 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us, 315 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Verne Cox 316 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you 317 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:45,719 Speaker 1: get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. Hi. 318 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm Delia Wild and I want to invite you to 319 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: listen to my newest podcast, a sense that the afters 320 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: to make up appy. It's called The Oh My God 321 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: Particle Show or OMGPS for short. Are you like me? 322 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: Always wondering about the universally? What the universe is made of? 323 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: What is in the atmospheres of alien panics? And you know, 324 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: how are we even here to even ask those questions? 325 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: So road trip, I want to get some answers directly 326 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: from researchers at the Large Hadron Collider. We're colliding particles 327 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: with energies that naturally existed in the universe, was about 328 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: a trillions of the second Old. I found scientists from 329 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: all over the world. Everybody is working together to get 330 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: their experiment working. I've got to doctor brilliant astrophysicist who 331 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: collaborated with Brian May, the guitarist from Queen. Listen to 332 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: The Oh My God Particle Show on the I heard 333 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 334 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: At this point, testimony moves to the inside of the home. 335 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: In the galley, members of the Rodent, Gillie and Manly 336 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: families prepare themselves elves for another day of horrific photos. Geneva, 337 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: Christina's mother sits stoically in the courtroom. Her daughter hands 338 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,239 Speaker 1: her a tissue, even though she isn't crying yet. Now, 339 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: let's talk about blood or biological evidence. At this scene, 340 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: they start with the pools of blood and an around 341 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: a recliner in the living room inside the front door. 342 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 1: Just from what we saw, it's obvious that you can 343 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: see what you could consider to be origins or a 344 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: place that a person was in when the blood lighting 345 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: event occurred. Did you take some swabs of the blood 346 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: in front of that chair, Yes, sir, I did. Handshaw 347 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: meticulously documented shoeprints in the dried blood in and around 348 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: the area as well. Is it more likely for a 349 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: shoeprint to be tracked or picked up in blood when 350 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: that blood is wet or fresh, as opposed to dry 351 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: a pool. Absolutely, yes, you said when you very first 352 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: observed these footprints, they were already drying the blood. Is 353 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: that correct? Yes, they were, So you talk about preserving 354 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: it documented, how do you go through actually photographing it 355 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: and then ultimately collecting any shoeprints in this scene, Yes, 356 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: they we're all photographed and documented as they were, as 357 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: they were when they were filmed. And when you talk 358 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: about detail, what's standing out to you where you're like, oh, 359 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: they may be able to do something for this. What's 360 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: actually standing out to me at that particular time was 361 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: the fact that can I stand again, please, in this 362 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: area of the shoe, I'm not seeing any kind of 363 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: wear pattern at all. That meant something to me. The 364 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: shupernt evidence could not be shown to anyone outside the 365 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: courtroom because Judge Steering ordered media not to show any 366 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: photos that included blood. Sitting through this testimony, victims families 367 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: are of course emotional. One family member looks down, not 368 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: wanting to see what comes next. Here again, James Filcher 369 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: don't want to shock the jury, but they also don't 370 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: want to offend the family. There's been some serious tension 371 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: between the media and the family and the prosecution that's 372 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: borne out on some of these motions and some of 373 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: these other things. That we're seeing because we think everything 374 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: should be shown. I mean, blood is blood, they're bloody 375 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: crime scenes. This is what happened. You gotta know how 376 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: these people died. You got to see it. I mean 377 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: it's part of a murder trial and there's eight victims, 378 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: all shot multiple times, so it's part of the deal. 379 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: In this same area of the living room, you identify 380 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: that as being on the floor. Did you also find 381 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: what appeared to be blood's flatter on the wall? Yes, 382 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: we did. Is there anything that sticks out the end 383 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: with respect any personality of that blood or even that 384 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: First of all, there's a lot of blood stains on 385 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: this wall, and in my training that all of these 386 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: stains from what I see are descending stains, which means 387 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: they are traveling down when they struck this wall. Here again, 388 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, that is an indication of a lot 389 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: of anger, because you would think that anybody that was 390 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: familiar enough with firearms that would show up into some 391 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: con environment would also know what kind of forces being 392 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: brought there. With just one shot, you should be able 393 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: to recognize that you don't really need that many, But 394 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: for some reason, the perpetrator found it necessary to lay 395 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: into Chris Senior, specifically to make sure that he was 396 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: totally completely eradicated that he would not rise again. How 397 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: did you take that slab? Where'd you submitted to and 398 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: was that eventually submitted to the lab for DNA testing. 399 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: I believe that eventually it was submitted for DNA testing 400 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: to determine actually which victim's blood. This was the swabs 401 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: from the staining contained in that exhibit. The living room 402 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: of four zero seven seven Union Hill Road, also depicted 403 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: in photo ID number eighteen, tested positive for blood and 404 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: the DNA profile of the blood from this swab contains 405 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: Chris Rodent Senior's DNA. One family member burries are facing 406 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: their hands, another covers her mouth and wipes away tears. 407 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: If Chris Senior was still alive lying on the floor 408 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 1: at the next bit of evidence may explain what happened 409 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: in the last moments of his life. As you were 410 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: doing your examination of this area, did you also find 411 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: a projectile strike in the floor by that rocker recliment, Yes, sir, 412 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 1: it was quite some time later before that we were 413 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: at a point in our processing and our investigation that 414 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: I was able to move that chair. When we did 415 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: move the chair. That's when it was we noticed that 416 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: there was a bullet hole, or a suspected bullet hole 417 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: in the floor right next to the chair. It appeared 418 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: that it was going from above down. We knew that 419 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: it came from inside going down toward the floor, and 420 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: assumed that it may have exited under the mobile home. 421 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: Todd Fortner explains further, and at some point, did you 422 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: actually use rods to try to determine the angle that 423 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: that bullet may have gone through that floor? Yes, it's 424 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: a fairly steep downward angle, so the muzzle of the 425 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: weapon was fairly close. A second hole was found here 426 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: and the rod then will extend downward through that hole. 427 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: And did you find again that second hole to be 428 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: in line or intrajectory with that first hole that you 429 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: accept the riding Yes? Were you able to track that 430 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: hole through that joice beneath that trailer, Yes, we were 431 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: able to track it down into the ground. At that point, 432 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: another agent Durst, crawled under the trailer and recovered one 433 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: of the bullets. What did you notice about that projectile 434 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: with didn't go It was a hollow point appeared to 435 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: be a pistol projectile that had not expanded. Basically, the 436 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: way a hollow point bullet works is a softer substance. 437 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: Human tissue is designed to go in and expand those 438 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: metal pedals out in order to create a larger wound track. 439 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, most people when they think of a 440 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: bullet projectile, they'll think of what'll refer to as a 441 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: ball ammunition. That's a bullet that kind of has a 442 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: rounded nose on it. That's kind of the traditional image 443 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: that you think about. So if you have a forty 444 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: caliber round that's being fired out of a weapon, forty 445 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: caliber is pretty much much what you're going to get 446 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: with ball ammunition that can deform and all those sorts 447 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: of things, but the diameter of the round is not 448 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: going to change that much. However, when you start talking 449 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: about a hollow point, what happens is that once that 450 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: round passes out of the end of the muzzle and 451 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: it winds up on its targeted area, these little the 452 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: only way I can really describe it, are these little 453 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: wings essentially kind of deploy. You have a forty caliber 454 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: round that suddenly deploys out upwards a forty five caliber 455 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: Fortner explains why the bullets they found didn't deploy. If 456 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: it hits something hard, for instance, would concrete, potentially even bone, 457 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: before hitting enough of a quantity of soft tissue to expand, 458 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: it will basically just dent the front of it and 459 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: it will keep going and would basically become a non 460 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: hollow point projectile. Of the non training experience that I 461 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: didn't hit like soft tissue, the bullets themselves kind of 462 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: speak to you as a crom scene investigator, I do 463 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: recall something where the actual sequencing of the gunfire tells 464 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: a story this vividly because you give an idea of 465 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: when this horror is just visited upon Chris Senior along 466 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: with Gary, there's an awareness, I think you know that 467 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: the world is kind of blown apart in the side 468 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: of this home. His arm was mangled, and so he's 469 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: writhing in pain on the floor, and then you see 470 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: these other rounds that come from another weapon and they 471 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: pump them into his body and his life ends right 472 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: there on the floor. Sadly, it seems Gary Roden suffered 473 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: a similarly terrifying end. Agent Henshaw found his glasses and 474 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: baseball cap nearby in the kitchen. Hanshaw opens another envelope 475 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: and pulls out Gary Roden's bloodstained hat. As you examined 476 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: that hole or perforation from the outside, did you notice 477 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: any blowout or any frame of that hole on the 478 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: back there that indicated that it was an exit wound 479 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: as opposed to an entrance hole. Appeared to be what 480 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: I initially thought it could be. Okay, well, let me 481 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: ask you this. At some point, did you later learn 482 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: that when that item was being examined, a possible piece 483 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: of a projectile fell out it. Yes, we're able to 484 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: look at that hat and possibly track where that bullet 485 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: had actually come out at the front of the hat. 486 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: At this point, George Wagner's face read and he clenches 487 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: his jaw, and again, does it appear that that area 488 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: of the hat had been pulled or torn or ripped 489 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: away from the half the bill area there? Yes, sir, 490 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: it does here again, investigative reporter James Pilcher, followed by 491 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: medical forensics examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. Somebody shot Gary Roding 492 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: in the back of the head. The bullet went through 493 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: his head and then knocked his cap off, and the 494 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: bullet lodged in the bill of his cap. Once hell 495 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: begins to rain down. You know where all of this 496 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: is occurring. The door bust open. How did he react 497 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: at that moment? Top Was he in total shock? Did 498 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: he have an awareness? Did he know that Chris Seniors 499 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: screamed out as his arm was kind of blown apart? 500 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: Did he rushed to his side? And we don't really 501 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: know that part, but in my mind, I'll imagine that 502 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: you know the same person that exerted domin over Chris Senior. 503 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: Potentially it would have been very easy, as Gary is 504 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: kind of tending to this dear family member, is for 505 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: somebody to have just simply ended his life execution style 506 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: as he stands over and pumps this round into the 507 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: back of his head. Can you tell us what we're 508 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: looking at and where we're heading there? A two, one four. 509 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: We'll be standing in this general area again, this being 510 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: the kitchen chairs here, and you're beginning to see blood patterns. 511 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: At some point, did you continue to move through that 512 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: residence back towards the back bedroom where the body's were, Yes, sir, 513 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: I did He found Chris and Gary at the foot 514 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,479 Speaker 1: of the bed covered in a blanket. After taking photos 515 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: of the entire room, Hanshaw carefully removed the blanket to 516 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: further document the bodies. You tell us it's depicted in 517 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: this picture, and what you're trying to show, trying to 518 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: show the original position of the hands of the victim. 519 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: The victims family members are having an incredibly hard time 520 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: with the graphic photos. Someone allowed themselves to look up 521 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: at the screen where the photos are being projected. Others 522 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: weep openly. A four to fifty once again, as a 523 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: photograph of our victim's hand, showing obviously blood and some 524 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: the condition of the clothing as well. Okay, when we're 525 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: talking victim is just the first victim, Chris Rodin, Yes, 526 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: it is. When you look at his body position, did 527 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: you find his arms to be up over his head 528 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: and his sweatshirt rolled back over his head. Yes. When 529 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: they got to Gary and Chris Senior's bodies to do 530 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: their examinations, their hands were above their heads, the shirts 531 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: sweatshirts were pushed up. Now for us, that's an indication 532 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: that a body has been drug Yes, this would be 533 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: the arm of Gary Rodin, and it extends out parallel 534 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: with the bed and there's saturation stains or a large 535 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: amount of blood on the exterior of the jacket. In 536 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: that photograph, you can see a lot of blood around 537 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: the mouth and those discoloration around the eyes, and then 538 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: what I thought appeared to be a bullet hole near 539 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: the ear. And did you continue to document or get 540 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: closer pictures of what you believed to be a bullet hole, Yes, sir, 541 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: I did. What is the purpose of taking those pictures 542 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: with respect to that body at the seat? I want 543 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: to document this as much as possible. I can't control 544 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: what anybody else does after these bodies are taken out 545 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: of my care or after I'm going, so I want 546 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: to document them as they were, as I found them 547 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: to essentially settle back and understand. Anything that I do 548 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: with the bodies, I can move it slightly and it 549 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 1: takes it completely out of context. So he was probably directed, 550 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: tell your people to take the bodies out this specific way, 551 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 1: and you know when it comes to Christine or and Gary, 552 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: that's important. Hanshaw testifies that along with the photographs, his 553 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: team took hundreds of blood sample swabs from the home 554 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 1: and the bodies of Chris and Gary Rodin. They also 555 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: used what is called a forensic vacuum. Tell the jury 556 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,479 Speaker 1: what a forensic vacuum is and how a forensic vacuum works. 557 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: That's relatively sample. We have a small vacuum that are 558 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: designated for that purpose, and that purpose only would be 559 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,760 Speaker 1: to look for trace evidends such as hairs, fibers, anything 560 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: residual that might have been left behind them there. We 561 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: would seal that bag and then I normally would put 562 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: that bag in another bag and put my label and 563 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: my signature on. If I'm wearing a mask of hood 564 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: and gloves, is that going to impede my DNA from 565 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: going somewhere where you're going to vacuum it up with 566 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: your forensic vacuum. Yes, it can. If Eady Wilson drags 567 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: those bodies to the back of the bedroom and I've 568 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: got gloves on, Am I gonna leave touch DNA? Most 569 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: likely not, But you do that anyways just in case. 570 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yes, at that particular time, you have 571 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: no idea if a suspect was wearing gloves or not 572 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: wearing gloves. Here's Jeff speaking with Joseph Scott Morgan. Here 573 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: we are a couple of weeks into the trial. The 574 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: prosecution still has this a DNA problem. The more cases 575 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: that cover personally the more I hear this cry, you know, 576 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: from the public, where's the DNA? Was the DNA? Jurors 577 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: walk in and they are expecting DNA in every single case, 578 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, that's not accurate. It's not going to 579 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 1: happen every single time. You know, if you have a 580 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: barrier between your hand and surface that you place that 581 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: hand upon, there is not much of an opportunity for 582 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: you to shed these dead skin cells that will have 583 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: an incomplete strand of DNA in them. It makes it 584 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: difficult for the prosecution. Let's stop here for another break. Oh. 585 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 586 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 587 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 588 00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, he 589 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 590 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted to the point she went unconscious. 591 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about of anything, but only takes the 592 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 593 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 594 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 595 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,839 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 596 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 597 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 598 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 599 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,399 Speaker 1: listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts 600 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney 601 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd 602 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it 603 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: was just a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they 604 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: won't cross. I was stunned and I just said, no, 605 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: we're killing people. You may never have to face that 606 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: decision when find yourself at that line. Thout ricin, arn't ricin, 607 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: And somebody needs to just for once give everybody the 608 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: whole truth. This is evil and the only person who 609 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going 610 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: to sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. 611 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: If you are disloyal, things are going to happen. To 612 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: speak out disgrace to our gun. Evil play should be prosecute. 613 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: When power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. 614 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to The Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, 615 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's 616 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of 617 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning 618 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to 619 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things. People like me have 620 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. 621 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil. 622 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: They will take things away, and I can only hope 623 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl. You 624 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,399 Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get 625 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: through the day in New York City and get home 626 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: in one piece. And so the fact that we're here 627 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 628 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 629 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 630 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 631 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Verne 632 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever 633 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: you get your podcast, be sure to subscribe and share. 634 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Bad Manners. This is the podcast 635 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: that takes you inside britain stately homes and tells all 636 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: the tales the guide books don't. My name is Tom 637 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: Burton and I'll be your host. Britain is riddled with 638 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: the big houses, from crumbling castles, massive mansions and stately 639 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: piles bigger than bucking and Palace. As a comedian, I'm 640 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: not really bothered about the facts and figures. I just 641 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: want the juicy stuff. So I'm on a mission to 642 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: find out the frightening, filthy and downright jaw dropping stories 643 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: of these stately homes and the people in them. This 644 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: podcast ventures deep inside some of Britain's most incredible and 645 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: outrageous buildings to spill the tea on the scandalous, scary, 646 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: shocking and hilarious tales. So if you want to get 647 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: historically horrid, royally raucous, and downt and dirty, look no further. 648 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: Listen to Bad Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 649 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. After hours of testimony 650 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 1: centered on blood and projectile evidence in the home, the 651 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: prosecution turns to Chris Senior Garage and the space above it. 652 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: Investigator Henshaw was initially drawn to the security cameras we 653 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 1: thought it appeared as though it were pointing toward the residents. Okay, 654 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: at some point, did that pique your interest to try 655 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: to go find a DDR or recording device that might 656 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: be linked to that gammer. Yes, we attempted to look 657 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 1: for any kind of recording device that would have maybe 658 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: documented what happened or given us some idea will trace 659 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: the wires back. They led inside and we found nothing, 660 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: no recording device connected to this system. They tested the 661 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: disconnected wires for DNA in case the perpetrators had handled them. 662 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: There was nothing. But the door into the building also 663 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 1: stood out to h and Handshaw. Did you examine that 664 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: door a little more further for other evidence or the 665 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: possibility about dents. Two things stood out to me. One 666 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: as it appeared as though there was forced entry, I 667 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: would would be consistent with the door handle lying on 668 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: the upper surface of the porch. And the second thing 669 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: is that appeared to be a transfer, a small transfer 670 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: of blood on the exterior face of that door. This 671 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: doesn't look like a spatter pattern. It looks like a 672 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 1: transfer pattern. The difference would be a transfer would be 673 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,320 Speaker 1: if I had blood on my hand and I touched 674 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: this paper or something else and then moved it away, 675 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't leave blood that I transferred from my 676 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: hand onto that surface. Did you eventually take steps to 677 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: identify that according to your BCI numbers and try to 678 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: collect that blood for further testing? Yes, those swabs were 679 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: sent to the lab for testing that stain. Are those 680 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: swabs tested positive for the presence of blood and the 681 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,879 Speaker 1: blood contained in those swabs contained the DNA of Gary Road. 682 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: The defense has a few questions for either of the 683 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: BCI agents, but they do offer one final stipulation. When 684 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: things are stipulated to, it is an agreement that's entered 685 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: into between defense counsel and prosecution that they will stipulate 686 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 1: to that bit of evidence, that they're not going to 687 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: argue it, they're not going to debate it during this time. 688 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 1: The parties have another stipulation, all right, put that on 689 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,760 Speaker 1: the record. Ent. Yes, the parties will stipulate and agree 690 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,879 Speaker 1: that with respect to four zero seven seven Union Hill Road, 691 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: none of the evidence collected or examined with respect to 692 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: that scene contained any DNA that was linked to George Wagner, 693 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: this defendant Jake Wagner, Angela Wagner, or Billy Wagner. That's correct. 694 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: That's the voice of Special Prosecutor Andrew Wilson conceding there 695 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: was no DNA evidence linking any of the Wagner family 696 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,360 Speaker 1: to the site where relatives found Chris Roden Senior and 697 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: his cousin Gary dead in April twenty sixteen. There's no 698 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,240 Speaker 1: DNA Avidage. People who were not involved in the system, 699 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: it's the first thing out of their mouth. Well, d 700 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: DNA Avidage. Well, for me, the shoe prints till everything. 701 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,359 Speaker 1: We've been using shoe prints for over one hundred years now. 702 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been accepted in courtrooms in a lot 703 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: of different places as valid science. It was a massacre, 704 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: but it didn't seem as though they went back to 705 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: kind of cover their traces. I think they did take 706 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,839 Speaker 1: a lot of steps. But there's no such thing as 707 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,320 Speaker 1: the perfect crime. The term criminal mastermind is kind of 708 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: an exymoron because criminals generally aren't masterminds, and they often 709 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: make mistakes which leads in that convict and this is 710 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 1: one of those examples. More on that next time. For 711 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us 712 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masker 713 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Scott de Graw, 714 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 715 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Ta Music by Jared Aston. The 716 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. 717 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the Heart 718 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 719 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast 720 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,560 Speaker 1: called The girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, 721 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 1: and it is time to find a husband. There were 722 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: four Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. 723 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 1: One of them one of the spot barremout. On paper 724 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: he was perfect, but in reality, this guy is a wacome. 725 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,839 Speaker 1: He shouted to the point she went unconscious. I would 726 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,239 Speaker 1: call him and I would say, I know you killed 727 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends on the 728 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 729 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: I'm will daily for years have been on the road, 730 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: playing shows and seeing America through live music. This summer, 731 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,080 Speaker 1: I'll hit the stage season two of Sound of Our 732 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, we explore 733 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,759 Speaker 1: the live music, venues and culture of a new American city. 734 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: With each new episode, our tour continues into the kind 735 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:41,359 Speaker 1: of venues you want to get to when you landed 736 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 1: in Detroit, Providence, Denver or Seattle. Listen to Sound of 737 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 738 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Right, I'm Freedom and I'm Marthy. 739 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,520 Speaker 1: We have spent the last twenty years building and working 740 00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: at some of the largest companies in the world. We 741 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,359 Speaker 1: worked with some remarkable people. Rob mcalinney. When I see 742 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: the people of Wrexham, I grew up exactly like them. 743 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: Check out the Art and Treeom show. That is a 744 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,239 Speaker 1: R D HI and S R I R A M Show. 745 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 1: Listen to the Art Instrie Arm Show on the iHeart 746 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 747 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 1: This is the story of a man who's fascinated me. 748 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,839 Speaker 1: His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name 749 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: you don't forget. He was a visionary who built a 750 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,480 Speaker 1: fortune as a black man during Jim Crow during the Depression, 751 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,439 Speaker 1: but today not many people know about him. The race 752 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,279 Speaker 1: sort of wiped out, and I wonder if this was 753 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,919 Speaker 1: done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, 754 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.