1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Cool Media. Hello everyone, Jamie. Here just a few quick 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: housekeeping things at the top of this episode. First off, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: I'm excited to say that I'm doing my first proper 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: taping of a special of mine on December fourth in 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. It is called The Tiny Man Is Trying 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: to Kill Me. I'm so excited. If you've been following 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: my work for a long time, I really love building 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: shows like this and it's cool to finally be making 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: kind of a proper production. So there's going to be 10 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: two tapings on December fourth at the Lyric Hyperion. It 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: is a mix of some of my newer stand up 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: and a performance about the titular tiny Man Who's trying 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: to kill me. And it's all kind of about the 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: tendency to bastardize every part of your life for material 15 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: and hashtag content. Working some shit out, if you will. 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: But it's also very silly and very fun, and there's 17 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: brief nudity. I'd love to see you there. Tickets are 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: in the description. Second, I wanted to plug another show 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: that I produce on iHeartRadio called We the Unhoused with 20 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: Theo Henderson. It's a long running podcast about issues that 21 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: face the unhoused from unhoused perspectives, there aren't really shows 22 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: that do that, and it's especially important to be informed 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: on right now given the recent Supreme Court decision called 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: Grant's Pass that makes it all but illegal to be 25 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: unhoused in the US, which will get worse in the 26 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: coming administration. For more on that, the link is also 27 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,919 Speaker 1: in the description. And finally, today we are talking about 28 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: part two of Volume Hung, as the title of the 29 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: episode indicates, but I wanted to give you a heads 30 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: up that in December we're going to be doing a 31 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: multi part series on the main characters of the Manusphere. 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: Obviously a big conversation right now, and I'm looking for 33 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: sources for that episode. So if you are or know 34 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: someone that was interested in The Manusphere and then got 35 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: out of interest in the Manisphere, I would. 36 00:01:58,600 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 2: Love to talk to you. 37 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: It can be anonymous, and the email to reach out 38 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: to is small Ice resurfacer at gmail dot com. Okay, 39 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: I hope everyone's hanging in and enjoy William hum American 40 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: Idol is guilty of a lot of things. It's guilty 41 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: of letting Ryan Seacrest wear jeans with a blazer like 42 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: he's Kamala Harris giving a pep talk at an elementary school. 43 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: It's guilty of burdening us with Chris Daughtry, But if 44 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: you watched early American Idol, you'll know it wasn't just 45 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: guilty of millennium kitsch. But damn there was a lot 46 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: of that. 47 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 3: Thank you. 48 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: And there were also a lot of pernicious elements, elements 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: of racism, of sexism, of xenophobia that you could literally 50 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: hear on the show, often from Simon Cowell. But there 51 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: was a diverse pool of American Idol winners in those 52 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: early years. In the first six seasons, three winners were 53 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: white and three were black. But there are also full 54 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: half decades where the winners were truly profoundly random white guys. 55 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: A winner named Philip Phillips. You're joking, And this has 56 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: been called out throughout the show's history. Elton Goddamn John 57 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: called it out all the way back in two thousand 58 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: and four when future e goddter Jennifer Hudson was eliminated 59 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: from the show. On wait for It, Barry Man Alone 60 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: Night from the La Times in two thousand and four, the. 61 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 4: Three people I was really impressed with and they just 62 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 4: happened to be black, young female singers, and they all 63 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 4: seemed to be landing in the bottom three, said John, 64 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 4: commenting on the tally in which the lowest vote getter 65 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 4: is eliminated. They have great voices, the fact that they're 66 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 4: constantly in the bottom three and I don't want to 67 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 4: set myself up here, but I find it incredibly racist. 68 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: While it did feature a diverse array of contestants, it's 69 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: impossible to argue that American Idol was a truly inclusive show, 70 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: and not just because of the very existence and concept 71 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: of Barry Mandel Knight. There were elements of discrimination that 72 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: you couldn't see as a viewer, and once that went 73 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: all the way to court. In early twenty thirteen, news 74 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: broke that ten black contestants had filed a suit against 75 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: the show with the Equal Opportunity Commission that alleged that 76 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: they were quote deliberately exploiting black contestants to improve the 77 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,559 Speaker 1: show's ratings unquote. The suit is an extremely long one, 78 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: but the summarize I'll quote from this Guardian piece from 79 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: Amanda Holpuch at the time, speaking here about filing lawyer 80 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: James Freeman. Freeman said he noticed something was awry when 81 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,239 Speaker 1: Jermaine Jones was kicked off the show in March twenty twelve. 82 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: Producers said at the time that Jones was disqualified because 83 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: he had not told the show there were outstanding warrants 84 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: for his arrest. 85 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 5: Freeman also said in the letter that he saw that 86 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 5: only nine other people had been publicly disqualified from the show, 87 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 5: and they were all black. Freeman claimed in that letter 88 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 5: that by asking potential contestants if they had been arrested, 89 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 5: producers violated California employment law, under which employers are not 90 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 5: allowed to ask potential employees about their arrest history, and 91 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 5: the letter, he said that the show perpetrated destructive stereotypes 92 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 5: about black people by using their answer to that question 93 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 5: and employing private investigators to examine their arrest history, allowing 94 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 5: them to disqualify the contestants, and from the lawsuit itself. 95 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 4: A staggering thirty one percent of every American Idol semi 96 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 4: finalist contestant who happened to be a young black male 97 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 4: was disqualified from this singing competition for reasons wholly unrelated 98 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 4: to their singing talent, even though there were three times 99 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 4: as many white or non black contestants featured on American Idol. 100 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 4: Over the course of ten years, there has never been 101 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 4: a single white or non black contestant disqualified from American Idol. 102 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: Not Ever, nine out of ten complainants were black men 103 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: who said they were disproportionately focused on with speculation to 104 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: their criminal history, then punished for it. A similar discrimination 105 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: case had been brought the year before by black contestants 106 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: of The Bachelor, and the case was thrown out on 107 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: the ground that casting isn't the same thing as hiring, 108 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: and that rejecting black applicants was fair under the First Amendment. 109 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: What But things didn't go much better in the Idle 110 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: lawsuit in late twenty fourteen. It was revealed that the 111 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: statute of limitations didn't apply for nine out of ten 112 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: contestants who sued, and the other got dismissed on a technicality. 113 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: But there's no doubt that American Idol has a history 114 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: of racism and discrimination in the treatment of their contestants. 115 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: And it's not like this was Idol's idea. For my money, 116 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: this just reflected the amount of permissible discrimination that was 117 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: acceptable at this time. I'm not saying it's much or 118 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: at all better now, But the post nine to eleven 119 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: era was rife with casual xenophobia, with shaming women into 120 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: eating disorders, to closeting queer people by threatening retaliation or 121 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: shaming for being out at all. This was the world then, 122 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: an idol was reflecting it, and when it came to 123 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: reinforcing existing stereotypes around marginalized people, no one was safe 124 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: and no contestant picked off the questions about how race 125 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: was treated within the show, like William Hung. In part 126 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: one of this year, we revisited how William's infamy rolled 127 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: out and spoke with the man himself, and today we 128 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: are looking at his cultural impact and what we can 129 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 1: learn about representation and reality TV by taking a closer 130 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: look at his story. So let's start Ebanging Baby. It's 131 00:08:19,760 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: part two of William Hum. Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, 132 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: the podcast where we take a look at the Internet's 133 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: main characters and learn how their moment affected them and 134 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: what it says about us and the Internet. And this 135 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: week we're delving deeper into the saga of William Hung. Sir, 136 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: she bangs himself. 137 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 6: Cheep bags, cheap begs, oh baby, but she moves, She moves. 138 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: Getting to speak with William was really wonderful, and his 139 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: huge cultural moment was so impactful that it became literally 140 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: impossible to get everything I wanted to talk about in 141 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: the space of a single episode, because one issue in 142 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: particular is so significant in the discussions that surrounded William 143 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: at the time, and since that, I wanted to give 144 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: the topic its own space. That's what we're doing today, 145 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: because there's framing an audition as bad, and framing an 146 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: audition as bad while referencing and capitalizing on racial stereotypes 147 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: to make the audition seem even worse. For example, here's 148 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: how a mediocre white contestant might be rejected. 149 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Victim. 150 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 7: Should we just do this together? 151 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 6: You guys are on the count of three, one, two, three. 152 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: No, you are. 153 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: A terrible singer. 154 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 4: You are a terrible dan So you have no charisma, 155 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 4: I mean everything. 156 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: I've seen some of those people that you sent through there, 157 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: and I know I'm a lot better than that, Victor. 158 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: You know what, it doesn't matter what we think, is it? 159 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 5: All that matters is what you think anyway, terrible, It's. 160 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: Definitely what America thinks. 161 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: America, Victor, America would hate you. 162 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: And here's how William was treated. Yeah, he's not great. 163 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: But listen to how he's spoken about. 164 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 3: What's your last name? 165 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 4: Hung Hu and g Hu? 166 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: Yes, brothers and sisters. No, I don't. 167 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 8: I'm the only child, the only child. 168 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 9: Yes. 169 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: Do your parents tell you. 170 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: Have a great voice? 171 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 6: No, they don't realize actually great? 172 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: And they are they excited for you that you're here. 173 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 8: Actually they were. 174 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 6: They were not like it. If they hear that, you know, 175 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 6: I'm missing school for two days in a row. 176 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 10: So they wouldn't like it if you go through. 177 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: Huh. 178 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 10: They wouldn't be happy if you go through. 179 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 8: No, they wouldn't be happy if I go through. They 180 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 8: wouldn't be heapy if I don't go through. 181 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: School. 182 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 8: Yes, that's a big sacrifice, William. 183 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 6: It's one of actually the worst auditions we've had this year, 184 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 6: if I'm being honest. 185 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 9: Seriously, I mean everything about it was grotesque. 186 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: Oh stop it grotesque? 187 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: It was you stop it already. 188 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: You can hear the judges leaning into common early odds 189 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: tropes around Asian American people and more specifically East Asian men. 190 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: He's hyper focused on academics. He should be doing homework. 191 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: His parents wouldn't approve of a career in entertainment and 192 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: would rather he excel in school. In subsequent media appearances 193 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: William made, he would often be asked how he's doing 194 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: with the ladies, or in his own music video, would 195 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: be surrounded by conventionally attractive white women who were only 196 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: into him because of his fame. 197 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: I'm Tony the record company guy. 198 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 2: I meet you, I want you to meet you new girlfriend. 199 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: And did that boy yoyoy owing sound happen over the 200 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: image of William's eyes bouncing out of his head horny 201 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: cartoon wolf style. Yes, of course it was making the 202 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: idea that women would be interested in William into a joke, 203 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: reinforces another long standing media stereotype against East Asian men, 204 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: that they are somehow less masculine or worthy of any 205 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: sexual attention. This is an extremely complicated topic and one 206 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: that I'm going to get into with our guest Nancy 207 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: Wangian today, and I just want to add already that 208 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: these stereotypes being thrown at William here are just as 209 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: tied in the Western tendency to turn Asia into this 210 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: big monolith in their minds, when, of course that's ridiculous, 211 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: and the bad faith that we're seeing here revolves around 212 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: stereotypes rooted in East Asia in the West, and yes, 213 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: William Hung is framed to embody many of the tropes 214 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: that Americans had embraced around Asian men at the time. 215 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: But William Hung is also a real person. As you 216 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: heard in our interview last week, William's feelings towards the 217 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: role anti Asian racism played into his moment are complex 218 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: and have changed over time. For him and many, the 219 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: message of perseverance and positivity is what he feels catapulted 220 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: him to success on Idle, and he's generally said that 221 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: he doesn't think the Idle production itself was discriminatory, but 222 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: he has been critical of how the media treated him 223 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: in the two thousands. Here he is in twenty twenty. 224 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 8: I remember when I auditioned for American Idol back in 225 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 8: two thousand and four. I had a lot of fans, 226 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 8: but I also had quite a bit of probably a 227 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 8: big number of haters. Some people say that I portray 228 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 8: Asian stereotypes. Other people say that I shouldn't be an 229 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 8: entertainment business. That's all these negative things. But let's take 230 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 8: a step back. Why are we being so negative? Does 231 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 8: it help us to improve our lives by taking our 232 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 8: anger on people like that. Not really, And in the. 233 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: Same talk, William discusses how he was upset by the 234 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: massive wave of anti Asian racism that came in the 235 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: early months of the coronavirus pandemic. 236 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 8: It really bothers me that there are people locally in 237 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 8: the Los Angeles area getting shamed, getting attacked, getting sped on. 238 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: It's not right. 239 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: So of course he's well aware of the cultural stereotypes 240 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: that he's being judged by, and he's also just being himself. 241 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: So what do you do. First, Let's focus on that 242 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: media reception, because American idol couldn't make a star without 243 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: the interest and cooperation of both the media and the public. 244 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: I can't cover this subject comprehensively in the space of 245 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: an episode, and I am not the ideal person too, 246 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: but I want to give you an idea of the 247 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: attitudes towards Asian men, specifically when William Hung first came 248 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: into the American spotlight. For further, I would recommend the 249 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: making of Asian America a history and serve the people 250 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: making Asian America in the long sixties, which takes special 251 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: care in analyzing how Americans were conditioned to see Asian 252 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: people as a monolith in the back half of the 253 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: twentieth century. You can find those at the links in 254 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: the description. In brief, racism against Asians in America is 255 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: long standing and far reaching. There's unfortunately no shortage of violence, harassment, 256 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: and discrimination against Asian Americans in recent years, particularly around 257 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: the time of the pandemic. There were tremendous waves of 258 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: propaganda demonizing Asian countries and people during both the Korea 259 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: and Vietnam Wars, and the eighteen eighty two Chinese Exclusion 260 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: Act in the US made it all but impossible for 261 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: Asian people to integrate into American society at all. And 262 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: much of the violence toward Asian people is elevated and 263 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: reinformed by the pop culture that portrays them in the West, 264 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: including truly horrific yellow face performances from white actors that 265 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: would have been remembered by many older IDOL viewers in 266 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: two thousand and four. Major examples that audiences might have 267 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: known about included, of course, Mickey Rooney's trash performance as 268 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: mister Junioshi and Breakfast at Tiffany's. 269 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: I wrote this, Oh, Darling, I am sorry, but I 270 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: lost my. 271 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 6: Key what what wikesable? 272 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 3: You cannot go on or keep her in in my 273 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: bill You just stob me. 274 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 2: You must have a key mate. 275 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: But there is more where that came from. John Wayne 276 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: played Genghis Khan, Katherine Hepburn in a movie called Dragon Seed, 277 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: the white actor who played Charlie Chan in sixteen movies 278 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: entire career. The list goes on, and part of this 279 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: was related to the Hayes Code, an extremely restrictive policy 280 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: in a American movies from the nineteen thirties into the 281 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: sixties that explicitly banned any sexual contact between different races 282 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: on screen. So if you did cast an Asian actor 283 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: in an Asian role, they couldn't have a love interest 284 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: who was of any other race. But this isn't the 285 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: sole reason this happened. It's also just mask off American 286 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: racism and a vested interest in affirming negative stereotypes around 287 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: Asian people, and this continued after two thousand and four, 288 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: more recently with the casting of Scarlett Johansson as a 289 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: Japanese character in Ghost in the Shell in the twenty tens. 290 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, teen Vogue interviewed Keith Chow, founder of 291 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: the pop culture blog nerds of color. 292 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 4: He says, it's all connected. Chow tells teen Vogue, it 293 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 4: all results in the dehumanization of people of color, and 294 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 4: in the specific case of yellow face, in the dehumanization 295 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 4: of Asian people. 296 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: And that's not to say that there were not impactful 297 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: Asian stars that broke through in the West in the 298 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: twentieth century. Stars like Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan experienced 299 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: global success, and movies that centered Asian characters and culture, 300 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: like The Joy Luck Club had a big moment upon 301 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: its release in nineteen ninety three. But that's not very 302 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: much good representation and certainly isn't proportional to the Asian 303 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: American population. That's one mainstream movie for an entire generation, 304 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: while other Asian characters in popular movies were most often 305 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: relegated to side roles to mainly white protagonists and even 306 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: more often embodied these racialized stereotypes. And if you've taken 307 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: a media studies class, you might know where I'm going 308 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: with this. For gen X, and that's none of my 309 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: business due to my radiant youth, But for gen X, 310 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: one of the most prom in portrayals of an Asian 311 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: man came in John Hughes's nineteen eighty four movie Sixteen 312 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: Candles in the form of a character named Long Duck Dong. 313 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: And not only was his character's name written as a 314 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: joke by a white guy, this character embodied basically every 315 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: cultural stereotype we've discussed so far. He is literally introduced 316 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: with the sound of a gong repeatedly. 317 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 7: What's happened in the hot stuff. 318 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: He's a quote unquote good boy, a model minority stock 319 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: character with an over emphasis on good behavior and academics. 320 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 7: I love a visiting with a grandma and a grandpa 321 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 7: and writing letters to parents and pushing lawnmowing machine so 322 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 7: Grandpa's hyena don't get disturbed. 323 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: And later on when he has a white girlfriend, it's 324 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: presented as ridiculus. 325 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 10: I've never been out with Oh neither. 326 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: And maybe you saw this coming. But the actor you 327 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: heard performing Getty Wantanabe. He's of Japanese descent, but he's 328 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 1: from Utah, and the fact that he had to take 329 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: this role on has everything to do with the kinds 330 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: of parts that were available to Asian American actors at 331 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: this time in a white dominated entertainment landscape. In front 332 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: of and behind the scenes, there was very little imagination 333 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: to see Asian men as anything but caricatures. Long Duck 334 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: Dong is indisputably presented as the butt of the joke, 335 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,479 Speaker 1: and studies found that this happened more often than not 336 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: throughout Hollywood's history. Here's our guest today, Nancy wang Yin 337 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: talking about Long Duck Dong in an interview with NBC 338 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one. Anything he said was something you 339 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: laughed at, not with. He kind of defined Asian characters 340 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: for decades, and this kind of representation makes a difference. 341 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: In the early twenty twenties, the Geena Davis Institute on 342 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: Gender and Media studied the top grossing films of the 343 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: twenty tens and how AAPI people were represented in them, 344 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: and the study found that over half of these characters 345 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: were the butt of a joke in the opinion of 346 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: a number of Asian American writers in two thousand and four, 347 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: it's this Long Duck Dong playbook that is being weaponized 348 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: while portraying William Hung on reality TV. This is a 349 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: trope specifically weaponized against East Asian men, and you can 350 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: hear echoes of it in the way that William is 351 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: spoken to at the peak of his fame. 352 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 9: And how about the girls. 353 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 4: Have you noticed a big difference with the attention from 354 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 4: the girls? 355 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 8: I noticed that I get a lot. I make a 356 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 8: lot of friends in general, not just girls, a lot 357 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 8: of girls. 358 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. By two thousand and four, around thirteen percent of 359 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: the American population were people of Asian descent, but the 360 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: representation was still nowhere near proportional then or now. As 361 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: recently as the late twenty ten's, only four percent of 362 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: speaking roles in Hollywood films came from Asian actors, and 363 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: so this meant when an Asian person appeared on American TV, 364 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: the way they were framed disproportionately mattered, something that is 365 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: entirely the fault of American media. And while William was 366 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: often presented as unaware of the conversations around Asian representation 367 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: taking place, of course that's bullshit. He was well aware 368 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: and genuinely struggled with it. Here he is during his 369 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen TED talk discussing why it was challenging to 370 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: accept a record deal in the first place. 371 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 6: Now, I know what you're thinking, how how can this be? 372 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 6: Take the money for But for me it wasn't easy 373 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 6: at all. You see I was aware that I was 374 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 6: made the laughing stock for Asians on American Idol. In 375 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 6: my heart, I felt like there were magnetic forces pulling 376 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 6: me in different directions. But these forces graduate disappeared when 377 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 6: I realized that perhaps I have the power to bring 378 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 6: smiles to people's faces. 379 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: Because remember, there was criticism of William's success on American 380 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: Idol coming from within the Asian activist community, citing the 381 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: sting of feeling like these stereotypes were once again being 382 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: lifted up by the American media for the purposes of 383 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: mocking Asian men, the same way they had with Long 384 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: Duck Dong. One of the most influential critics was s 385 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: F Gate writer Emil Gierma in his piece William Hung 386 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: Racism or Magic from two thousand and four. 387 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 4: It wouldn't be so bad if we saw positive images 388 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 4: of Asian American males in the media, but for the 389 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 4: most part, we've been invisible, and the images have usually 390 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 4: come with martial arts enhancements. Bruce Lee's combative persona has 391 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 4: been the most virile and most enduring icon for Asian 392 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 4: American males, but the stereotypes that predominate are the sinister 393 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 4: and inscrutable or ineffectual and effeminate. One thing that can 394 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 4: be said for those who seek to exploit William Hung. 395 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 4: He has not been asked to demonstrate any karate moves 396 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 4: or threaten the American way of life. Hung doesn't see 397 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 4: himself reinforcing stereotypes with the lame dancing and the accented 398 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 4: rhythmlessness of it all. He's proud of his badness. 399 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: And Guermo revisited this critique over a decade later. In 400 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, when William Hung made a return guest appearance 401 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: on Idle Publishing, this time in the Asian American Legal 402 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: Defense and Education Fund, he wrote. 403 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 4: Besides, here was the all too willing Hung, glad to 404 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 4: extend his fifteen minutes of fame under the guise of good, 405 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 4: clean fun, reveling in his accented, unmusical oddness. Only it 406 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 4: wasn't all that fun, because it's not just Hung up there. 407 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 4: Given our relative invisibility, we are still in a US 408 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 4: society that believes if you've seen one Hung, you've seen 409 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 4: them all. Asian Americans that is at five percent of 410 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 4: our nation, around twenty million strong, with a population that 411 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 4: is two thirds immigrant, many with accented tongues, hearts, and minds. 412 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 4: To trot Hung out there as a joke in primetime 413 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 4: is still offensive. 414 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: However, as Guierromo acknowledges in both of these pieces, there 415 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: there were also Asian American people that enjoyed and embraced 416 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: William's persona in message. The reaction to William Hung was 417 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: not monolithic then or now. So I was excited to 418 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: speak with a media critic who had seen and reflected 419 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 1: on Hung's journey from its beginning. And there's no one 420 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: better than Nancy Wang Yun. We'd met before when she 421 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: appeared on my other podcast, The Bechdel Past Shout Out, 422 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: and she's wonderful. She's the author of Real Inequality Hollywood 423 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: Actors and Racism, and I was really interested to hear 424 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: her thoughts on this two thousand and four wormhole. Here's 425 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: our talk. 426 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 10: I am Nancy Wang Yun. I'm a sociologist and currently 427 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 10: I'm also teaching ethnics. I write on Hollywood and representation, 428 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 10: especially Asian Americans, but I write on representation in general, 429 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 10: and I've written a book called Real Inequality Hollywood Actors 430 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 10: and Racism. 431 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: I think about Asian American. 432 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 10: Representation as an Asian American immigrant myself having come here 433 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 10: when I was five and growing up here and understanding 434 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 10: that there's a world out there, even though Asian Americans 435 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 10: are about seven eight percent of the population. Having grown up 436 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 10: in Taiwan, I remember what it was like to see 437 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 10: lots of different kinds of different Asian Americans who look 438 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 10: maybe similar to people who don't know Asians, but are 439 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 10: quite distinct and different. And we have multitudes, and so 440 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 10: I think it's really weird to be in a country where, 441 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 10: you know, people tend to lump us all together when 442 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 10: we are quite distinct and different. 443 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: I hate to bring you back to two thousand and four, 444 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: but unfortunately that is my sacred duty. 445 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 3: Do you remember this moment? 446 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: How did you receive it at the time. 447 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 10: So I think I was a little disturbed by the 448 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 10: popularity of it at first, because I think my instinct 449 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 10: on why William was so popular was that because he 450 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 10: had fit a pre existing stereotype of the kind of awkward, 451 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 10: nerdy Asian guy like Long Duck Dong from sixteen Candles. 452 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 10: You know, William himself is a real person, right, He 453 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 10: is not a character. No one invented him. He is 454 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 10: himself authentically himself. But I think the fact that I mean, 455 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 10: American Idol auditions was just part of so many American 456 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 10: Idol episodes, and there's a lot of people who audition 457 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 10: and are not good or are not not not good whatever, 458 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 10: not up to par in terms of what a pop 459 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 10: star is supposed to sound and look like. 460 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: There's that too. 461 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 10: There's the kind of racialization of, you know, what American. 462 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 2: Pop star should be. 463 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 10: I think black and white usually are the you know, winners. 464 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: Predominantly of American Idol. Asians are really such a minority. 465 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 10: And so here comes William Right who comes and becomes 466 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 10: this phenomena. 467 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: And I think a lot of Asian. 468 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 10: Americans were perplexed because he really fit into a stereotype 469 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 10: that we wanted to distance ourselves from, the kind of 470 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 10: that Asians can't sing, can't dance, and are only nerdy. 471 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 10: So he fit into what people thought of as Asian American. 472 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 10: I think I was already in graduate school at the 473 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 10: time studying Asian American representation and thinking about it in 474 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 10: that context. Was Okay, he's popular because he fits into 475 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 10: a stereotype, not because he is a stereotype necessarily, but 476 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 10: what about you know, all the Asian young folks who 477 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 10: are auditioning, who actually you know, could sing and dance 478 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 10: in a way that was, you know, conforming to pop 479 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 10: music standards. They didn't seem to enjoy the same popularity, 480 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 10: so he went viral for the wrong reason. 481 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: That was what I thought at the time. 482 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: In two thousand and four, what is Asian American representation 483 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: in media? 484 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: Like? 485 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 10: Yeah, so there wasn't very much. I think Margaret chose 486 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 10: All American Girl was a pretty big I mean it 487 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 10: wasn't a huge show. I don't think everybody knew about it, 488 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 10: but Asian Americans did. 489 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: It was about her family set in San Francisco. 490 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 10: It was essentially one season and then canceled, And it 491 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 10: did show Margaret as someone who was the antithesis of 492 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 10: maybe Asian American stereotype. She was very kind of rebellious, 493 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 10: more quote unquote Americanized, more westernized. There was racism, that 494 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 10: was sexism that she experienced. She was told to be 495 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 10: more Asian, which maybe you know in that time was 496 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 10: thinking be more like William Hung. 497 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, it was like what does that mean? Yeah, 498 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: what does that even mean? 499 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 10: Because she is definitely herself that was probably one of 500 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 10: the few TV shows about Asian Americans. And then of 501 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 10: course I mentioned Long Dut Dong, which was a John 502 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 10: Hughes movie, and that that basically was a stereotype, that 503 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 10: it was more akin to who William was, and I 504 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 10: think that was why people were pretty disturbed. But I 505 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 10: also think, yeah, I think it's because we had such 506 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 10: a dearth of Asian American representation that anyone who goes 507 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 10: viral or becomes popularized becomes a stand in. Of course, 508 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 10: there was also a Pooh who was South Asian, also 509 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 10: a stereotype based on Peter Sellers's performance in The Party, 510 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 10: which was brown face performed. 511 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 2: So this is the kind of the representations were pretty bad. 512 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 2: And of course, if. 513 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 10: We think about the predecessor to Long Duck Dung, played 514 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 10: by Geddy white Nabe was essentially yellow face performances of 515 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 10: Asians like Mickey Rooney and Breakfast at Tiffany, who was 516 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 10: also you know, had buck Te. 517 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 2: Was nerdy, was awkward, very massive fortunate Willim Hung. 518 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 10: I think if you watch the audition, the judges except 519 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 10: for Paula Abdul, laughing at him, and he becomes kind 520 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 10: of a clown and a buffoon, but he's a real person, right, 521 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 10: And I think that people are also drawn to his 522 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 10: sincerity and his positivity and really kind of confidence. 523 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: Despite the fact that he, you know, wasn't as skilled. 524 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 10: As maybe some of the other people who auditioned, he 525 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 10: didn't seem to let it bother him, and I think 526 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 10: that people were drawn to that. 527 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: It's possible to be drawn to that. 528 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 10: And to the stereotypes that he invokes, right, So it's 529 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 10: like it's complex, and I think that if he were 530 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 10: to audition today, the post post crazy rich Asians post 531 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 10: everything everywhere at once, where we have someone like Keith 532 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 10: Wei Kwan, who is who plays both kind of an endearing, 533 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 10: awkward kind of person, but in another universe he's like 534 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 10: one car wide. 535 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: Cool with you know, his tuxedo. I think William Hung 536 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: today wouldn't. 537 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 10: I wouldn't see him as problematic because we have so 538 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 10: many more representations of Asian Americans that we can say. 539 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 2: Okay, well, William is a real person. He's cool, you know, 540 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 2: I know people like William. 541 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 10: So it wasn't like a stereotype in the sense that 542 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 10: someone like him, many people like him exist. 543 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think the fact. 544 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 10: That there was a dearth of representation back then made 545 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 10: his stardom much more kind of cringey for those of 546 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 10: us who didn't see a multipitude of representations to balance 547 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 10: out William's kind of stardom. I felt like William Hung 548 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 10: fit into the model minority stereotype, something that we really wanted. 549 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 2: To push against, I think during that era. 550 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 10: Actually, I feel like we're always trying to push against that, 551 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 10: So we definitely were cringing because he fit into the 552 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 10: model minority stereotype as well. 553 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: You can sort of feel the author real hand presenting 554 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: you with a stereotype that a lot of Western people 555 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: are going to be familiar with and latch onto unquestioningly, 556 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: and that is a problem when there's no other representation. 557 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 3: In the twenty years that have. 558 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: Passed, how has Asian American representation in Hollywood evolved? 559 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 10: I think that there has been. There's always been independent 560 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 10: Asian American filmmaking, even during the time and preceding the 561 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 10: time of Voe Hung. But I think that only in 562 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 10: recent years that Hollywood has elevated. I think Asian American 563 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 10: stories more Minari and the Farewell you know Sundance movies 564 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 10: now d D this year, so there's still a lot 565 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 10: of independent movies, but I think it is because of 566 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 10: Crazy Rich Asians doing really well. 567 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 2: At the box office. People are more open and interested 568 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: in more studios. 569 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 10: So even you know, even yes, there have been so 570 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 10: many more Asian American representation, but I think the majority 571 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 10: of Americans are still unaware of those representations. It feels, 572 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 10: at least for I think for Asian Americans who want 573 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 10: to see themselves, we can actually see ourselves much more. 574 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 2: Like when I was growing up. I'm a little bit older. 575 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 10: Than Williams, so I would have, you know, experienced similar 576 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 10: things to him, and I never saw myself. 577 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 2: I think it was the Joila Club in high school. 578 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: Was the first time I. 579 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 10: Read the book, I saw the movie, and that was 580 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 10: the first time I had ever seen myself. But it's 581 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 10: not like the Jrola Club ushered in a whole golden 582 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 10: era of lots and lots of representation. 583 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: It wasn't until Crazy Rich Asian that we. 584 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 10: Had another kind of epic movie, you know, that was 585 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 10: a predominantly Asian American cast, and prior to this is 586 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 10: again East Asian. 587 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 2: Prior to Jola Club, it was The Flower Drum Song, 588 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 2: which was you know, a movie in the. 589 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 10: Sixties, right, So it's like you got the sixties in 590 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 10: the nineties, then twenty nineteen. I mean, this is like 591 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 10: generational differences, one movie per generation, which is. 592 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 2: Just really terrial. I also wanted to tell a story 593 00:36:59,040 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 2: before I forget. 594 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 10: So I was part of an Asian American watchdog organization 595 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 10: called MANA, and they got a phone call that someone 596 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,879 Speaker 10: wanted to protest William Hung. 597 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 2: And guy Guy who is the head of Yes, this. 598 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 10: Is in two thousand and four, and he had said 599 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 10: to us, who you know, were part of the organization, 600 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 10: He's like, we can't protest a real person. 601 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 7: You know. 602 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 10: You can protest like negative representations of Asian Americans, but 603 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 10: you can't protest a real person. 604 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,240 Speaker 2: And that always sticks with me. You know that William 605 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 2: Hung is a real person. He's not a stereotype. 606 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 10: He's a real person, right, And of course you know 607 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 10: why they decided to highlight his audition. 608 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 2: And the way that he was maybe treated by the judges. 609 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 2: You know, although Paula. 610 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 10: Abdul bless her heart, she was so encouraging and treat 611 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 10: him at all like the stereotype, you know, and used 612 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 10: her kind of stardom and maybe Yeah, her lift experience 613 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 10: to connect with William in a way that the other 614 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 10: two judges didn't as much. 615 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 2: Simon certainly was the worst. I mean, Simon was always terrible. 616 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 10: He called William grotesque, and I think that he didn't understand. 617 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 2: Well, maybe he did understand. 618 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 10: But the weight of those words I felt was there 619 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 10: was racism in it, even if he didn't intend it 620 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 10: that way. When you have so few Asian East Asian 621 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 10: contestants and you call him grotesque, I thought that was 622 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 10: over over the line and yeah, and definitely racist. And 623 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 10: I do like the fact that the other two judges 624 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 10: really pushed back on that. The other two judges who 625 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 10: happened to be people of color, pushed back on that 626 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 10: because I think instinctively they knew that that's not okay 627 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 10: to call, you know. 628 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: A young man of color grotesque. 629 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 10: Yes, I do feel like, yeah, that audition it revealed 630 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 10: more about I think America's perception of Asian Americans than 631 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 10: William Home himself. It was a kind of mirror onto 632 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 10: US racism against Asians, anti Asian racism. But he himself, 633 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 10: as a real person, deserves to be who he is. 634 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 10: So just because he wasn't bothered by it. It doesn't 635 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 10: dismiss the fact that others were bothered by it, because again, 636 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 10: one Asian shouldn't have to speak for all Asian Americans. 637 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,240 Speaker 10: So because a lot of times people will be like, well, 638 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 10: what's the problem, William Hong himself doesn't have a problem. 639 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 2: He doesn't think it's racist or whatever. 640 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 10: Again, because there's such a dearth of representation, he cannot 641 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 10: speak for all Asian Americans who are perhaps being bothered 642 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 10: by it because they themselves have experienced racism that was 643 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 10: really painful. 644 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: Now, twenty years later, what can we take away from 645 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,479 Speaker 1: this moment in twenty twenty four. 646 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 11: I appreciate reality shows because there are are people that 647 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,760 Speaker 11: are represented on screen that we don't see in narrative 648 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 11: film or television shows. 649 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 10: Because those only come from the imaginations of a predominantly 650 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 10: white male production team. Reality shows you can't predict who's 651 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 10: going to show up. 652 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 2: Of course, you know, we have. 653 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 10: Casting and if you look at The Bachelor, and you 654 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 10: know the Bachelorette, the first Asian American bachelorette, and we 655 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 10: have so few Asian male contestants, which I was concerned about. 656 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 10: So we're still dealing with some of the same problem 657 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 10: of scarcity. How Hollywood decides not to kind of show 658 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 10: the multitudes of Asian American men and women. Yet we 659 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 10: have also YouTube and actually Wang Fu Productions came out 660 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 10: with Asian American Bachelor kind of spoof and actually invited 661 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 10: some Asian American contestants. 662 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 2: In the past, Asian. 663 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 10: American men and women, but especially Asian American men, have 664 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 10: become celebrities in the YouTube world, much more so than 665 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 10: I would say Hollywood in terms of being able to 666 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 10: create their own content week after week and show different 667 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 10: kinds of representations. And I think Asian American men as hot, sexy, 668 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,879 Speaker 10: whether it's leads, whether it's in music, if we want 669 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 10: to talk about music. K pop has changed the climate 670 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 10: of how people in the West perceive Asian American men 671 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 10: because I think there's just a very very small band 672 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 10: BTS in the US and in. 673 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 3: The global group of people. 674 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 10: So I think that, yeah, the perception of East Asian 675 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 10: men have changed, I think for entire generations. So young 676 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 10: people coming up now Gen Z I think probably see 677 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 10: Asian men in a completely different light than two thousand 678 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 10: and four. Looking at William Hung, right, I think William 679 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 10: Hung probably represented. 680 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 2: What people thought of of Asian men. 681 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 10: There were you know, those studies that showed I think 682 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,919 Speaker 10: it was about was it Okaycupid or Match, that show 683 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 10: that Asian men were the least desirable on those dating sites. 684 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 10: And I think that that perception has shifted because of 685 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 10: K pop, because. 686 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 2: Of I mean, crazy rich Asians. John M. 687 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 10: Chew worked really hard to make sure that there were 688 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 10: lots of hot Asian men on screen. 689 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:30,399 Speaker 2: Showing their ass off. 690 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 10: It was very successful, very successful. Yeah, I think that 691 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 10: that perception has shifted, but it is very very recent. 692 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,399 Speaker 10: We need more variation. Twenty years later, we can look 693 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 10: back on William Hung and see his sweetness and see 694 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 10: his sincerity and not just see him as a stereotype, 695 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,359 Speaker 10: but we can see those other real aspects of him. 696 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 10: And that's actually when I when I watched it again, 697 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 10: you know, twenty years later today in preparation for this podcast, 698 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 10: I did see those aspects of him, and I also 699 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 10: noticed the racism of Simon cal So. It was like 700 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 10: I was able to I think when he came on 701 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 10: screen and knowing that he was, you know, representing us, 702 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 10: that's all I could see at that moment and feel 703 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 10: really scared that Oh my gosh, this is another you know, 704 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:22,720 Speaker 10: ding against us. 705 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 2: But now I can see him as who he for 706 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 2: who he is and for who. 707 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,720 Speaker 10: He was, and then also contextualize him in a way 708 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 10: that you know, young Nancy back in two thousand and 709 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 10: four was just more reactive. We all are protagonists of 710 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 10: our own story, right, and so we are all the 711 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 10: romantic leads of our own story. 712 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 2: And I think that there are folks that look like 713 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 2: Wim Hung, that look like Jimmy O. 714 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 10: Yang and and and the fact that we can have 715 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 10: stories about their lives and them as heroes is promise. 716 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Nancy. You can follow her 717 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,920 Speaker 1: work online and buy her book at the links in 718 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: the description. And finally, when we come back, we take 719 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: a look at William's lasting effect on reality television. Welcome 720 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: back to sixteenth minute. I personally believe that the connection 721 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: between Jack Skellington and teenage mall culture should be studied, 722 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: and today we're taking a closer look at the William 723 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: Hung phenomenon of two thousand and four. When most people 724 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: look back in the two thousands, they think of it 725 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: as the peak of the reality TV genre because it 726 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 1: was from Survivor in two thousand and one to peak 727 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: Jersey Shore in the late two thousands. For nearly the 728 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: entire decade, reality shows were the top rate on TV. 729 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: But why was this such a big moment. The simple 730 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,839 Speaker 1: answer is it's traditionally cheaper than scripted TV, and if 731 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 1: the American Idol debut to ten million people was any 732 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: indication it got the same or better numbers when it 733 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: came to viewers and advertisers. And as many hyper specific 734 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: genre seargis tend to do, it was also related to 735 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 1: labor strikes throughout the two thousands. Sag AFTRA, the Actress Union, 736 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: was on strike for one hundred and eighty two days 737 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: during the year two thousand, leaving the uni universe industry 738 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: to look anywhere else for content. We see another bump 739 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: in reality in the later two thousands for a similar reason. 740 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,399 Speaker 1: The WGA, the Writers' Union, went on strike then, which 741 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,720 Speaker 1: led to the late aughts renaissance of shows like Jersey 742 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: Shore and sixteen and Pregnant. Of course, reality TV has 743 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 1: remained popular and content traversial in the years since. So 744 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,319 Speaker 1: I wanted to speak with someone who had been there 745 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: through it all and could speak to William's moment in 746 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: the year since from inside the reality industry, and of 747 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: course I wanted to talk to an editor. Steve Flack 748 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: has been in the industry for a while and experienced 749 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: every manner of ethical dilemma and massive media backlash that 750 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: comes with working in the world of reality TV. You've 751 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: seen his editing work on Real Housewives, Say Yes to 752 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,720 Speaker 1: the Dress, and, according to his IMDb page, something called 753 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,959 Speaker 1: my Husband's Not Gay. Here's our talk. 754 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,640 Speaker 9: Hi. My name is Steve Black. I'm a video editor, 755 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 9: professional video editors, really been specializing in unscripted in reality 756 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 9: for the last, oh god, twenty years. I started working 757 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 9: in the industry in two thousand and three as an assistant. 758 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 9: I was a full time editor by two thousand and six, 759 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 9: and I've been doing that pretty consistently ever since. 760 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,360 Speaker 1: You've been in the industry for a while, it was 761 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: it the preference to stay in New York that brought 762 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 1: you into reality specifically. 763 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 9: I think it was just desire to work to pay 764 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,359 Speaker 9: off my student loan situation. It's like, I graduated film 765 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 9: school and I wanted to get right to work, and 766 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 9: I fell into working in unscripted television because that's again, 767 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 9: that was the ninety percent of the industry in New 768 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 9: York climbed through the ranks pretty quickly, and I was 769 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 9: pretty set. Also, I'll be honest, when I started in 770 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,839 Speaker 9: the industry was a little different, a lot more homemakeover 771 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 9: makeover shows, not as much through exploitation the way modern 772 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 9: reality TV has become, but also as someone who grew 773 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 9: up on basic cable, on MTV, on VH one, on 774 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,919 Speaker 9: you know, stuff like that at Comedy Central, I didn't 775 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,280 Speaker 9: really have a problem with it because it was stuff 776 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,319 Speaker 9: I was watching anyway, Like it's not foreign to me. 777 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,400 Speaker 9: Way I like to explain reality television editing, you have 778 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 9: all of the positives of scripted with all the negatives 779 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,719 Speaker 9: of documentary. Basically you're not beholden to the truth. But 780 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 9: you also don't have any of the stories already fixed 781 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,759 Speaker 9: in the script, so therefore you're making it kind of 782 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,960 Speaker 9: up based on what you have in the footage. So 783 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 9: it's like being handed a puzzle and being told put 784 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 9: it together, but not the way it's time to be 785 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 9: put together. 786 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: As an editor, it seems like you do have like 787 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: a fair amount of, at least in my estimation, a 788 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,280 Speaker 1: fair amount of creative freedom about how the story is presented, 789 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: But are you told, like, try to shape it in 790 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: this particular way. Does that approach on the producer side? 791 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:31,840 Speaker 1: Very How does that work? 792 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 9: Usually you try and shape it the way the producers 793 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 9: want at first, and you put it together and it 794 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 9: makes sense, and then you present it to the network 795 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 9: and they don't like it at all and you have 796 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,399 Speaker 9: to do something else with it. Again, like I said, 797 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 9: you're not beholding to the truth or the script. So 798 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 9: therefore everything is kind of malleable until at Arizon Television 799 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 9: because ninety percent of the time, the people the talent 800 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 9: are one hundred percent aware that they're going to be 801 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 9: messed with and shaped the way the producers wanted, and 802 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,279 Speaker 9: they think they're in on it, and then they find 803 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,680 Speaker 9: out it airs and they disagree. You said, this is 804 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,960 Speaker 9: this is mainly about William Home and William Hong was 805 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,759 Speaker 9: on season what American Idol wasn't season one? Season it 806 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,359 Speaker 9: was season three. Yeah, it was season three, So by 807 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 9: the time you get to season three, people know what 808 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 9: the gig is like. It was one of those things 809 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,000 Speaker 9: like I enjoyed watching season one of American Idol as 810 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 9: a college student, but it was one of the things 811 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,680 Speaker 9: like I couldn't get to season two because I felt 812 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 9: like by then the gig was up. Like, you go 813 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,879 Speaker 9: to the audition, do you know you're going to get 814 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 9: made fun of? The talent kind of knows going in 815 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:36,840 Speaker 9: they're getting screwed with. 816 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 1: Based on my conversation was William, it was like a 817 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: little bit of yes, a little bit of no, Like 818 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,319 Speaker 1: where yeah, by two thousand and four, people who've watched 819 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: TV are familiar with the ways that these are shaped. 820 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 1: But it did sound like, just from his account, that 821 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: it does feel different when it happens to you. Where 822 00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 1: he was like he was even though he was familiar 823 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,360 Speaker 1: with the cadence of even this specific show, He was like, Oh, 824 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,720 Speaker 1: as an editor, when you have to shape a person, 825 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: where do you start? 826 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 3: What are your instincts? Because I know it's like second 827 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 3: nature at this. 828 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 9: Point, this second nature. I think a big thing for 829 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 9: me is that they're not I don't want to say 830 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 9: they're not people, but they're not something like, especially in 831 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,920 Speaker 9: post production an editor, like even if I'm working on 832 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,000 Speaker 9: a show with hosts and recurring characters, like when I 833 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 9: worked on Housewives shows, I didn't know any of the Housewives. 834 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 3: Sure, you're just. 835 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,799 Speaker 9: People on my TV screen, Like, you know, none of 836 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,719 Speaker 9: these people are ever something I have to deal with. 837 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,759 Speaker 9: I think a lot of it is just kind of 838 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,239 Speaker 9: giving the producers what they want. Things that go through 839 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,560 Speaker 9: so many hands. You don't have any ownership of anything, 840 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,279 Speaker 9: so even if you start something, you don't necessarily finish it. 841 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 9: Like I try and to the best of my abilities 842 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 9: with the straits as white Man, try and be as 843 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:58,439 Speaker 9: ethically correct that I'm aware of. You know, of course 844 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,040 Speaker 9: you have your own unspoken biases that you're just completely 845 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 9: unaware of. But even if you put something in, someone 846 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 9: comes down the line and changes it based on network notes. 847 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,480 Speaker 9: Like there's there's a level of complete non ownership to 848 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 9: the editor, but at the same time realizing like this 849 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,919 Speaker 9: isn't my baby, this isn't a piece of art that's 850 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,839 Speaker 9: mine that I need to stick to. I don't want 851 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,560 Speaker 9: to say like I'm a tool, but sometimes you are 852 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 9: just a tool for the producers and for the editors, 853 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,040 Speaker 9: and if you're not going to give them what they want, 854 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,600 Speaker 9: they'll find another guy in the edit room. He'll do it. 855 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 9: You have no idea where the notes they're coming from 856 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,440 Speaker 9: and everything, Like when I did Housewives, I got notes 857 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,800 Speaker 9: from Andy Cohen, but then you also get a rounded 858 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 9: notes from Mandy Cohen's boyfriend at the time. Oh wow, 859 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,480 Speaker 9: who wasn't hired or anything. He just got to like 860 00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,440 Speaker 9: give a passive notes because you know he watched him 861 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 9: with Andy. You're completely disconnected from so much that you're 862 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 9: not exactly sure who's asking for what or what's what. 863 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,440 Speaker 9: Like I said, ninety five percent of the people involved 864 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 9: in unscripted reality television art I don't want to say 865 00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,919 Speaker 9: they're in on it, but they're at least a way 866 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 9: of what they're getting into. Everything's kind of fair game. 867 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 3: It feels like, hey, so what you've told me. 868 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 1: It seems like you've worked on a wide range of 869 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: unscripted to how the approaches would vary on shows like Housewives, 870 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: where people don't always come off well but they're cast members, 871 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,400 Speaker 1: and it's like it does seem like cast members versus contestants. 872 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean it's people want their fifteen minutes a 873 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,759 Speaker 9: lot of times, you know, Like that's the I keep 874 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 9: people keep always asking me where do you get these people? 875 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 9: I Like, there's a website, do you know about realitywanted 876 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 9: dot com. It's like a dating website for reality television shows. 877 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,360 Speaker 9: You make a profile, you say the type of shows 878 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 9: you'd be interested in being on, whether the makeover competition, whatever, 879 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,839 Speaker 9: and casting people just go through it looking for the 880 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,240 Speaker 9: next pup. I mean, that's a thirty year old reference, 881 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:50,960 Speaker 9: but you know, like he's like one of the first 882 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:56,520 Speaker 9: reality TV show turned into celebrity type person. There's there's 883 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,799 Speaker 9: a good chunk of reality television that's just hey, what's 884 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,719 Speaker 9: the movie or TV show and how do we make 885 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:06,360 Speaker 9: it real? Like Laguna Beach was THEOC, or Housewives is 886 00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 9: Desperate Housewives. 887 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,719 Speaker 1: In my mind, William Hung while he does sort of 888 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,120 Speaker 1: kind of prominence at the time where reality TV is 889 00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,960 Speaker 1: somewhat understood, it feels like a million years ago where 890 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,600 Speaker 1: it's like he stood in line for ten hours. There 891 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:22,680 Speaker 1: was no website component. I feel like the way that 892 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,600 Speaker 1: people interact with reality TV as contestants or as knowingly 893 00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:27,879 Speaker 1: like was not quite there. 894 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:29,839 Speaker 3: So I would love to talk about the. 895 00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:34,760 Speaker 1: Changes you have felt in the industry throughout your career. 896 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:39,000 Speaker 9: Big standout changes is Housewives and doctu soaps where nothing 897 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,799 Speaker 9: is real. When I broke into the industry, it was 898 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,840 Speaker 9: a lot of you know, homemakeover, makeover. I did what 899 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:45,959 Speaker 9: not to where I did while you were out, which 900 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,240 Speaker 9: was like kind of a companion pies to trading uh spaces, 901 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:50,600 Speaker 9: which everyone really was aware of us. 902 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,520 Speaker 3: It's like I remember all of these Yeah. 903 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,320 Speaker 9: MTV always had, you know, real worlds and whatever. Then 904 00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,879 Speaker 9: the Housewives kind of changed everything. I feel like postwifestyle 905 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,359 Speaker 9: shows were like, there's literally not a real thing about them. 906 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,520 Speaker 9: The stories are fake, the situations are fake. Every single 907 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,279 Speaker 9: thing is not real. I mean, look, reality television has 908 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,080 Speaker 9: a lot in common with another one of my hobbies, 909 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,440 Speaker 9: which is professional wrestling. Like you know about the concept 910 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:18,400 Speaker 9: of kababe. 911 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,280 Speaker 3: Right of course, yeah, yeah. 912 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 9: I mean it's all cafabe. But the reality television, professional 913 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,520 Speaker 9: wrestling politics, it's all the same thing. Speaking of not 914 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,120 Speaker 9: being behold into the truth, and this is where I 915 00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 9: have the conversation a lot with documentary editors. Are you 916 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,080 Speaker 9: are you aware of the term frank invite? No, you're 917 00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,520 Speaker 9: not aware of the term frank invite? 918 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:36,160 Speaker 3: No'. 919 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,480 Speaker 9: So it's one of the key things in reality editor's 920 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,120 Speaker 9: tool kit is the frank invite, which is basically, if 921 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,840 Speaker 9: they say it on camera, every word is available to 922 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 9: be used to be recut into any way to make 923 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,040 Speaker 9: them say whatever they want. 924 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,040 Speaker 3: Oh. Oh. 925 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,520 Speaker 9: I once went into a gig started to start telling 926 00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,200 Speaker 9: people like I don't I don't Frank Invite for ethics, 927 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,640 Speaker 9: ethical reasons, and people freaked out and I'm like, no, 928 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 9: it hold time. Oh the most famous one is and 929 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:10,399 Speaker 9: it's not holding up in court. Is just the famous confession, right, 930 00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,879 Speaker 9: the Confessions of Frank Invite. Look it up. Look, I'll 931 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 9: be honest with you. If I'm an editor and I'm 932 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,680 Speaker 9: working on a show and I have a guy admit 933 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,560 Speaker 9: to murder on television, I don't hold it for the premiere, 934 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,640 Speaker 9: the season finale, the episode I go to the cops. 935 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,120 Speaker 9: They didn't go to the cops because he said something like, 936 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 9: oh what did I do? What are they going to 937 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:31,719 Speaker 9: say that I killed them all? They cut out like 938 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,080 Speaker 9: a bunch of words and say, oh, this is his confession. 939 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:35,920 Speaker 9: You go back to the raw footage, you listen to 940 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,360 Speaker 9: what he says, and it's like, well, I didn't actually 941 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,440 Speaker 9: say he did it. He said a bunch of other stuff, 942 00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 9: and they manipulated it. The changes the whole true crime 943 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,600 Speaker 9: docudrama's things where they're just completely unethical. They're trying to 944 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,000 Speaker 9: edit things in the style of like reality television, but 945 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,560 Speaker 9: make documentaries and like, that's not how you make a documentary. 946 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,719 Speaker 9: Documentaries don't have cliffhangers every week. Documentaries don't say tune 947 00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 9: in for more. You just make your statement and you 948 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:01,360 Speaker 9: move on. They're not ethical. 949 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:03,120 Speaker 3: That is wow. 950 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,440 Speaker 1: As a former Jink said, that is I feel like 951 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:07,440 Speaker 1: such as dumbass. 952 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 9: Oh it would just to bring it back to the 953 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,200 Speaker 9: Franken by and this brings in the future of like 954 00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,719 Speaker 9: AI is now like that you can make people say 955 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:18,040 Speaker 9: whatever they want, because the whole drawback to AI was 956 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,360 Speaker 9: that it's not perfect. Like if you really, if you 957 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,520 Speaker 9: really critically listen, you're like, oh, this doesn't sound right. 958 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,879 Speaker 9: But like listen to most Franken bites, you don't sound 959 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:30,360 Speaker 9: right anyway, So it's now you're kind of beholden to nothing. 960 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I think like reflecting on the William hunks story, 961 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,240 Speaker 1: I do feel like the way that like his narrative 962 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,239 Speaker 1: was presented was to be humiliating, was to be like, oh, 963 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,439 Speaker 1: this guy bombs, let's edit it to make it look 964 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,600 Speaker 1: more humiliating than it even was at the time. Based 965 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,680 Speaker 1: on you know, William Hunk's account seems to be like 966 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:54,600 Speaker 1: a very intensely edited version of something that happened versus 967 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: what you're describing, which is like it doesn't even need 968 00:56:58,200 --> 00:56:59,600 Speaker 1: to have happened. 969 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 3: To be aired. 970 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,240 Speaker 1: Part of what I find really interesting about Willyam Hung's 971 00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,920 Speaker 1: story is that it happens at a time where TV 972 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 1: and the Internet are starting to be in more regular 973 00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,279 Speaker 1: conversation with one another. This was still wasn't a time 974 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,480 Speaker 1: where you could vote for American Idol online. 975 00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:17,560 Speaker 2: But you know, when. 976 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,720 Speaker 1: William Hung was on TV, a lot of the reason 977 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: it seems like he kept being brought back was because 978 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,439 Speaker 1: there were like forum posts about him, and there were 979 00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:29,080 Speaker 1: online petitions to like bring William back. There was the 980 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,400 Speaker 1: sort of inklings of like what happens now in the 981 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,680 Speaker 1: space of two hours, like you're saying, happen over the 982 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,480 Speaker 1: course of two weeks in your industry. Has the way 983 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:41,640 Speaker 1: that the internet interacts with unscripted TV shifted? Do they 984 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:43,760 Speaker 1: feel more in conversation with each other? 985 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,360 Speaker 9: It just feels like I must churn, like and the 986 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:50,520 Speaker 9: people who came to fame on it, the Housewives, the Kardashians, 987 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,000 Speaker 9: are just trying to like hold whatever they have for 988 00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,160 Speaker 9: as long as possible because they've made it a lifestyle, 989 00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,800 Speaker 9: a career, and they don't know what else to do. 990 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Steve Flack for offering his 991 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 1: experience in the industry, and you can follow him at 992 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,520 Speaker 1: the links in the description. And here we are at 993 00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,400 Speaker 1: the end of our journey with our boy William. William 994 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:18,120 Speaker 1: Hung has mainly discussed today as a relic of pop culture, 995 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:22,720 Speaker 1: one who inspired conversation that ranged far beyond his first 996 00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:27,200 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. You see, William become a focus of and 997 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:32,200 Speaker 1: by some people's standards, a perpetrator of cultural stereotypes. But 998 00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,680 Speaker 1: when you talk to the guy, he was just having 999 00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,680 Speaker 1: fun and capitalizing on this moment. It is not fair 1000 00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:44,200 Speaker 1: at all that his very existence was politicized from every angle. 1001 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,960 Speaker 1: But as we see time and time again, that's often 1002 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:52,880 Speaker 1: the nature of capitalizing on your moment in America. And 1003 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,280 Speaker 1: in spite of the roadbumps along the way, William has 1004 00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:01,080 Speaker 1: remained adamantly himself, something that is extremely difficult to do 1005 00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,840 Speaker 1: with twenty years of public and internet opinions being hurled 1006 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,440 Speaker 1: at you. It's pretty amazing. Now if we could just 1007 00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,320 Speaker 1: get them to stop working for the La County Sheriff's Department. 1008 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 1: William Hung, your sixteenth minute ends. Now, thank you so 1009 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,280 Speaker 1: much for listening to this two part series. I really 1010 00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,520 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed listening as much as I enjoyed researching it. 1011 00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,160 Speaker 1: And again, a lot of what we've talked about in 1012 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,840 Speaker 1: these episodes truly only scratches the surface. So please grab 1013 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,560 Speaker 1: yourself a copy of Nancy Wongyan's book Real Inequality at 1014 00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,280 Speaker 1: the link and the description. And for your moment of fun, 1015 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,960 Speaker 1: here's my full rendition of the national anthem in two 1016 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,520 Speaker 1: thousand and two, See you next week. 1017 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:54,960 Speaker 3: The national anthem. 1018 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,520 Speaker 7: You see by the teleology music. 1019 01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,640 Speaker 3: We're so proudly we. 1020 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,600 Speaker 7: Have a light. 1021 01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:19,520 Speaker 3: We suta bird shots do. 1022 01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,880 Speaker 1: Fin over the land, but. 1023 01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,200 Speaker 10: So bad. 1024 01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:34,400 Speaker 1: Hallo long. 1025 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:38,120 Speaker 9: The p. 1026 01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:51,080 Speaker 10: Gay pool they had at the see over. 1027 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:55,320 Speaker 3: The same that same The. 1028 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 12: B sixteenth Minute is a production of fool Zone Media 1029 01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:23,720 Speaker 12: and iHeartRadio. 1030 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,600 Speaker 1: It is written, hosted, and produced by me Jamie Lastus. 1031 01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:31,600 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Sophie Lickderman and Robert Evans. Themason 1032 01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,919 Speaker 1: Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our 1033 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,080 Speaker 1: theme song is by Sad thirteen. 1034 01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:39,560 Speaker 2: Voice acting is 1035 01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,640 Speaker 1: From Grant Crater and pet shout outs to our dog 1036 01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,720 Speaker 1: producer Anderson, my Kat's flee and Casper and my pet 1037 01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,320 Speaker 1: rock bird who'll outlive us all Bye,