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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by Canadian conquistadors. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it's brought to you by your local cat and or

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Speaker 1: dog shelter. That's all right, we're back on that again.

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Speaker 1: And hey, we've got an email from our listeners, Chris

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Speaker 1: and Cathy. They told us a really, really great story

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Speaker 1: about their dog, Stewie that they adopted from a shelter

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Speaker 1: and Stewie worked out great. Another wonderful success story and

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Speaker 1: another reason for why you should get down to your

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Speaker 1: local shelter and get yourself a cute little four legged

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Speaker 1: furry friend. Cat, dog, doesn't matter. But they're out there.

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Speaker 1: They need homes, and you know you need them more

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Speaker 1: than they need you even So get down there now.

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Speaker 1: And if you can't adopt, then you know, give money

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Speaker 1: or give your time volunteer. So I get down there now,

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Speaker 1: Your a little four legged friend is waiting for you.

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Speaker 1: It's quickly far. Well, hey there, and welcome again to

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Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve, of course,

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Speaker 1: joined by and Joe, and once again we bring you

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Speaker 1: a mystery, a really scary one this week. Well actually

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Speaker 1: in some ways, just when it's yeah, there's some there's

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Speaker 1: some moments during this one man. Yeah, it's gonna make

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Speaker 1: a thing twice before you do a certain thing. It's

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Speaker 1: very true. It's true because this week we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about a mystery that spans fourteen years and literally

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Speaker 1: scared the hell out of postal customers in New York

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Speaker 1: for a long time. I think that should be the

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Speaker 1: tagline of our show. Scared the hell out of postal customers,

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Speaker 1: makes you think twice about doing a thing. I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to give away the game by saying what that thing?

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Speaker 1: Right yet? Yeah? But actually used to be scared of

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Speaker 1: doing all sorts of certain things. Yes, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of certain things that are very scared we'll get you killed.

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Speaker 1: This very certain thing is dealing with your mail opening package.

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Speaker 1: Because we're going to be talking about the zip gun bomber.

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Speaker 1: You guys have heard of that, right of course. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have the ubiquitous bomber.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. This guy was like he never got

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Speaker 1: quite the publicity at the UNI bomber. Got I was

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Speaker 1: gonna say, you think of bombers at the UNI bomber

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Speaker 1: zip gun bomber? Yeah, only two? I know. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to say that they felt that this guy was envious

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Speaker 1: of those other big but I don't know that that's

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Speaker 1: really the cases we'll find as we go through this um.

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Speaker 1: But I do want to say thank you to Wesley,

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Speaker 1: because Wesley is the one who suggested this story to

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Speaker 1: us and wish very well played. But as with a

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Speaker 1: lot of these kind of stories, for those words, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'll read the first link, I read the second link

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Speaker 1: four hours later. I guess I'm covering this story. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My next week is like that too. Yeah. Um so whoever.

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Speaker 1: The zip gun bomber was an individual that sent explosive

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Speaker 1: packages to people in the New York area and was

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Speaker 1: never caught. And so let's let's tell this story. Disclaimer here.

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Speaker 1: I think we're going to probably be using the heat

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Speaker 1: pronoun for the bomber because it's really a default to that,

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Speaker 1: not because we don't think women can also be bombers,

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Speaker 1: but just because dudes tend to like to play with

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Speaker 1: things that go boom. Dudes are like the ones who

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Speaker 1: killed most people. Sorry, not all men, I know, but whatever. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the majority of yes, I will end up using the

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Speaker 1: heat pronoun. Actually, I think I think we have to

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Speaker 1: stay here or she every time you could say they singular,

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Speaker 1: then okay, well I'll let you do that, okay, okay.

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Speaker 1: So our story begins on the seventh of May two

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Speaker 1: when fifty four year old Joan Kip received a package

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Speaker 1: at her home in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, New York. Joan

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Speaker 1: had been a I think Joan actually was a guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she still was working, so she was a guidance counsel

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Speaker 1: her at a local school. But she was getting ready

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Speaker 1: to leave for the weekend with her husband to celebrate

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Speaker 1: Mother's Day when a package arrived in that day's mail

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Speaker 1: was addressed to her, and so she opened it and

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Speaker 1: lo and behold, inside was a cookbook. That's so lucky. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: and I'm okay. So presumably this as hard back as

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Speaker 1: will come to make sense soon. But she believed that

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Speaker 1: this was a Mother's Day president and was she she

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Speaker 1: was a mother? She was, she has she had several children,

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Speaker 1: at least one son and one daughter. I don't know

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Speaker 1: exactly how many children she had, but she believed that

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Speaker 1: it had to be a present for Mother's Day. So

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Speaker 1: she pulled and pulled it out of the box and

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Speaker 1: she opened the book. I'm guessing the plan was to

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Speaker 1: see if somebody had written on the inside of the cover,

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Speaker 1: like people do for for books that are gifts, somebody

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Speaker 1: had actually well, I was just gonna say, I feel

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Speaker 1: like every time I picked up a book, I opened

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Speaker 1: it just just at least looking the inside. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was presuming it, being that she thought it was a

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Speaker 1: Mother's Day gift, that there would be some kind of writing.

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Speaker 1: But you're right, she probably may have just automatically opened it. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: when she opened the book, it made a loud bang noise,

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Speaker 1: and Joan discovered that she had been shot. Because here's yeah,

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Speaker 1: because here's the thing. The book was actually a booby trap,

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Speaker 1: and when she opened the front cover she sprang said

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Speaker 1: trap and the book literally shot her. What. Yes, Joan

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Speaker 1: was taken to the hospital, but unfortunately she died several

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Speaker 1: hours later. The report, and this this is one of

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Speaker 1: those things with these kind of stories, the reporting berries.

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Speaker 1: Some just say that she was shot in the torso

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Speaker 1: or abdomen, and other places say that she was shot

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Speaker 1: in the heart, which technically is in your to I

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Speaker 1: think it's probably more shot little lower down in the gut,

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Speaker 1: just because when you help, if you're going to open

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Speaker 1: a book, you don't hold it up like heart level

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Speaker 1: to open it up unless you're short. There's a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of variables, and we'll talk about that, like how

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Speaker 1: things get held when they're open. Well, I mean, here's

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Speaker 1: the thing, though, is like this is really the reason

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Speaker 1: that we need better gun control, because a book should

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Speaker 1: never be able to go out and buy a gun

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Speaker 1: and mail itself to the unwitting victim and shoot it. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's the whole thing is that it's really just because

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know, you can't a book

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Speaker 1: cannot be connected to convicted of felowy. How can you

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Speaker 1: know if the book is a criminal or not. You

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Speaker 1: can't know, Okay, Okay. So the police, of course, they investigate,

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Speaker 1: and they're stumped, and so they start investigating everyone close

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Speaker 1: to the family because they've got nothing to indicate that

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Speaker 1: it's you know, no evidence points to anybody outside of

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Speaker 1: the family circle. And they would initially charge Jones's son,

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Speaker 1: Craig Kip, with her murder, but they could never really

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Speaker 1: put a case together that was comprehensive enough that that

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Speaker 1: would stand up to muster, and so that whole case

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Speaker 1: fell apart, and they really didn't have anything after that.

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Speaker 1: It is actually the police in the initial investigation who

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Speaker 1: would name our suspect or unknown suspect the zip gun bomber.

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Speaker 1: And that's based simply on the construction of what it

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Speaker 1: was that this this bomb was made of. And we

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Speaker 1: need to talk about it real quick because it is

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Speaker 1: it technically a bomb. Technically that's really I have gone

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Speaker 1: back and forth on I think, let me, let me

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Speaker 1: explain the weapon, and then people their own conclusions. Our

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Speaker 1: listeners are gonna want to build one for themselves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: please do not do this. It is a very dangerous

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Speaker 1: thing and you're likely to hurt yourself, if not someone else,

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Speaker 1: unintentionally or maybe intentionally. But the point is, don't do this.

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Speaker 1: You're leaving out some details on purpose. Actually I know

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Speaker 1: how to make I know how to make a certain explode,

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Speaker 1: which is why I never't accept a gift from you.

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Speaker 1: But but I don't do it. You know, I've never

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Speaker 1: done it, even though I know how, because I like

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Speaker 1: my hands. I have to have hands. So yeah, don't

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Speaker 1: mess it out with explosive guys. So, a couple of

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Speaker 1: things that we're gonna talk about here. So let's start

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Speaker 1: off the first, which is what is a zip gun.

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Speaker 1: A zip gun is an improvised firearmament. In its simplest form,

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Speaker 1: it's some kind of metal tube that holds a single bullet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're easiest ones. Then something is built into the back

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Speaker 1: of that tube to strike the primer on the bullet

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Speaker 1: to make a discharge off. Yea yeah, And I was

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Speaker 1: gonna say that it can they can be complex. But

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Speaker 1: the simplest one I saw literally was a tube with

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Speaker 1: something duct taped to it and a rubber band with

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Speaker 1: a nail and a piece of metal on it to

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Speaker 1: pull back like a sling shot to generate a little

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Speaker 1: force to set off a twenty two cartridge. Because the

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Speaker 1: thing is rim fire cartridges, twenty two cartridge just don't

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Speaker 1: have to have a good, solid direct hit to set

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Speaker 1: them off the rim well, but they don't have to

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Speaker 1: be a dead center hit, you know, like you like,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to hit the primer perfectly to get

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Speaker 1: that booger to go. And that's the point. They're easy

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Speaker 1: to fire. It's also a very low pressure around, which

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Speaker 1: is another reason because to be using a cheap, crappy

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Speaker 1: piece of pipe as your barrel and use a high

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Speaker 1: pressure around what you're gonna blow yourself up exactly because

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Speaker 1: zip guns, bomb or zip guns are not meant to

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Speaker 1: be long term weapons. And as Joash said, they they

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Speaker 1: will eventually wear out. Even if you build one right,

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Speaker 1: they eventually wear out from the pressure and they will

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Speaker 1: blow open your hands. So no, make one, No make gun.

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Speaker 1: Don't do it well, and I decided to do it.

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Speaker 1: Research your ammunition to make sure it's low pressure ammo. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's good point, or you know, just don't do it.

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Speaker 1: I just don't do yeah, I like my Yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: don't do it. Um So zip guns themselves, though, this

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Speaker 1: was something that was popular back in the forties and

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Speaker 1: the fifties, but of course as the price of guns

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Speaker 1: came down and the volume of available guns went up,

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Speaker 1: it stopped making sense. Never mind the fact that zip

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Speaker 1: guns are really only good for one round. There are

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Speaker 1: some designs out there that are quote unquote multiple rounds.

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Speaker 1: But it's a weird. Yeah, now that you see him

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Speaker 1: in prison sometimes for jails and things, and obviously if

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Speaker 1: you're in a certain situation where so you're in your

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Speaker 1: military occupation, all the guns have been compass card it's

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Speaker 1: time to be It's a good idea to know how

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Speaker 1: to make yourself as zip guns. Oh yeah, no, did

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Speaker 1: you see that one? Um? I was reading imp about

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Speaker 1: improvised munitions and I don't remember what website it was,

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Speaker 1: and they were talking about somewhere in the Eastern Bloc

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Speaker 1: countries and one was found that looked like a nineties

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Speaker 1: no Kia cell phone, remember the old nine. Devon will

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Speaker 1: probably remember this more than you, Joe, but it was

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Speaker 1: the the old Nokia nine thousands something, but it was

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Speaker 1: the standard cell phone that everybody had. But if you

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Speaker 1: spun the top half open and a barrel was exposed,

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Speaker 1: and if you hit a certain keys on the keypad,

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Speaker 1: you could fire up to four bullets. Now there's there's

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Speaker 1: people that they've made him actually pursull in the US

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Speaker 1: too cool little concealed gunst thing. And actually I was.

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Speaker 1: I was checking out cool zip gun designs on the webs,

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Speaker 1: and course, yeah, they're most of them are crude and crappy,

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Speaker 1: but there's a there's a few really cool ones that

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Speaker 1: I saw too, like this one where the gun was

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Speaker 1: designed as a large bolt and so at the end,

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Speaker 1: where the where the where the nut, where the nut

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Speaker 1: screws on, where the threads are there was a loose

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Speaker 1: not just threaded on there just to make it look like,

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Speaker 1: you know, something you could leave it in your toolbox,

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Speaker 1: you know, it would look like a bolt, don't look

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Speaker 1: like a gun. And so that's the end where the

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Speaker 1: where the barrel barrel thing is. And at the other

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Speaker 1: end the part that the little hex part that yeah,

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Speaker 1: that part there, that's the part that you pull out

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Speaker 1: and snap and allowed to snap back in the spring

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Speaker 1: load and that fires the gun. That's crazy. It was

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Speaker 1: a really design genius concealment. Yes, yeah, but that's that's

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Speaker 1: not typical for a zip gun. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: after point out too, this does not appear to actually

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Speaker 1: be a zip gun design. Well, and that's the thing

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Speaker 1: is that is the question is, okay, so this is

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about zip guns, and how does this

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Speaker 1: apply to what Joan Kip received. Um, Well, the book

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Speaker 1: itself that she got, the book was hollowed out to

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Speaker 1: allow room for the components of a zip gun, because

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Speaker 1: as Joe said, it's not really a zip contraption. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's a zip gun like contraption because inside of it,

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Speaker 1: what is happening is someone has put in a short

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Speaker 1: barrel er two and those barrels were apparently made from

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Speaker 1: automobile breakline. Then there's at least one two caliber bullet,

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Speaker 1: a couple of D cell batteries, some wires, a spring

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Speaker 1: from a ballpoint pen and um and then that that

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Speaker 1: spring is attached to lid. And how this thing worked

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Speaker 1: is that whoever made the bomb used the spring as

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Speaker 1: a part of an electrical circuit, So it becomes a

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Speaker 1: bit of an i e. D. And improvised explosive device,

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Speaker 1: because what happens is when they would lift lid, the

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Speaker 1: spring would move, it would complete a circuit that was

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Speaker 1: mounted to those batteries. Appears that there was a filament

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Speaker 1: like a light filament, like an incandescent light filament on

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Speaker 1: the back of the bullets, so that when the circuit

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Speaker 1: was completed, that would generate heat which would then set

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Speaker 1: off the primer, which would then set off the bullets.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't a physical strike. It was some kind

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Speaker 1: of electrical SAP. And I don't think that's the way

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Speaker 1: they actually did it, because you have to, like you

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Speaker 1: have to heat that two two bullet for a while

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Speaker 1: to get it to cook off, and they wouldn't all

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Speaker 1: go off the same time, so that's one fired at

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Speaker 1: that fire, two bullets in different directions, one of which

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Speaker 1: hit Jones, the one which flew off in the other direction.

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Speaker 1: And so what I think he did is the filament

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00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,560
Speaker 1: was actually an initiator. And there's ways you can do

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Speaker 1: that if you want to make your own blasting caps.

256
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Speaker 1: Use lightly. You use a light bulb that you've broken

257
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Speaker 1: the glass off on, and you wrap a paper tube

258
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,760
Speaker 1: around it, poor black powder in there and seal off

259
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,040
Speaker 1: the end, and then you get yourself your blasting cap there.

260
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Speaker 1: And so what I think he did is he had

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Speaker 1: like a central little thing that he could screw two

262
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Speaker 1: brake lines on either end. I think what he did

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Speaker 1: is he before he screwed this on, he stuffed a

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00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,480
Speaker 1: couple of twenties two caliber bullets into them loose, screwed

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Speaker 1: them on, and then the third side before he put

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00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 1: the initiator, and he poured gunpowder in there, placed his

267
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,440
Speaker 1: initiator in there, and secured it and attached the bat

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00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 1: and attached the wires to it. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: probably given more information than I ever would want to

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Speaker 1: give somebody in how to light one of these devices off.

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Speaker 1: But the point is it was part of a larger

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00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,960
Speaker 1: circuit that would fire the bullets, and that was what

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00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 1: made it different from your your typical zip gun is

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Speaker 1: that it was electrically initiated, not not by yes, it's

275
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Speaker 1: it is. The electrical initiation is what distinguishes this thing

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Speaker 1: from what you know, the rubber band method that we

277
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Speaker 1: were talking about before. One thing that I will say

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Speaker 1: that I read this in at least one place that

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Speaker 1: I think may be a little weird is that it

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Speaker 1: said that the rounds had twice the normal amount of

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Speaker 1: gunpowder in them as normal, and that either means that

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Speaker 1: what Joe described is correct and or the person that

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Speaker 1: did this was packing their own loads and therefore had

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Speaker 1: taken and made their own bullets and packed it with

285
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Speaker 1: twice the amount of gunpowder you would normally put in.

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Speaker 1: I think that there was some confusion on that because

287
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,040
Speaker 1: they were saying and yeah, it's why it's it's all

288
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 1: over the map and the way it's described. So I'm

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Speaker 1: not a positive Yeah, I think there. I think that

290
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Speaker 1: the reporters you wrote this and there was like they

291
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 1: were said, they were there, they were double charged. And

292
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Speaker 1: so what I took that to me after careful consideration,

293
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Speaker 1: is that each one of those improvised barrels had to

294
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 1: bullets in it and also more powder. But I mean,

295
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,880
Speaker 1: you can't pull apart like a twenties caliber long rifle

296
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: cartridge and packing twice as much gunpowder. Well, I and

297
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,720
Speaker 1: that's I don't I don't know how this happens. So

298
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Speaker 1: that's why it's it's a weird bit of trivia to me. Yeah,

299
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 1: it's not that violently impart, but that's what I think happens.

300
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 1: He put like two bullets in each barrel, and that's

301
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 1: what they called the double packed and they could have

302
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 1: just been balls, you know, like like shotgun balls or

303
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: something like that. So strangely in this story, though, what

304
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 1: happens next is nothing. For eleven whole years, nothing else happens,

305
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 1: nothing go boom, nothing, nobody gets a package that at

306
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 1: least this way. Yes, yes it was Kazinsky was out there,

307
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,400
Speaker 1: but the point is no more zip gun bombs were

308
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:56,000
Speaker 1: found until that is the fifteenth of October when our

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00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 1: perpetrators handywork shows up again. Uh. There's a gentleman by

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00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 1: the name of Anthony lens Up. He is on vacation

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Speaker 1: at the time with his wife there in Pennsylvania on

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00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,679
Speaker 1: the day that this all goes down from York. They

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00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,679
Speaker 1: were from New York, of course, yes. But what happens

314
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 1: is on that day their children come to visit them

315
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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania and they bring the mail from the lenses

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Speaker 1: home with them. Say hey, mom, dad, here's all your mail,

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00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,159
Speaker 1: the built up kind of thing. So Anthony, he's a

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00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 1: retired sanitation worker from New York City, but he gets

319
00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,399
Speaker 1: the package. He opens it and inside of the box

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Speaker 1: he sees what's described as a medallion box. And what

321
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,000
Speaker 1: I can figure out is this is essentially similar to

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00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 1: a coin box that people will use to hold or

323
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,359
Speaker 1: display their coins. It's yeah, it's a velvet wrap the

324
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 1: blue velvety wrapped box sticking out east side, not exactly,

325
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,600
Speaker 1: but what's similar to the box the Bok book that

326
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,919
Speaker 1: Joan got is that this box, it's wide and flat,

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Speaker 1: but not that tall, you know, maybe an inches inch

328
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: or so high. And so he opens the box and

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Speaker 1: he is shot by one of the rounds that comes

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Speaker 1: out of it, as well as two other family members,

331
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Speaker 1: because it turns out this thing had three rounds in it, yeah,

332
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 1: three barrels, and it they hit a person apiece. All

333
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: of the family were and by the way, these went

334
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 1: in all different directions, which we'll talk about in a second.

335
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,160
Speaker 1: But all of the people were hit, all of them

336
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 1: were taken to the hospital. They all survived their wounds.

337
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 1: They weren't massively life threatening. But as we talked about before,

338
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 1: like Joe had said, is that the one it appears

339
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: and I the reporting is unclear in this, but the

340
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 1: one that hit Joan, I know it had one round.

341
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,439
Speaker 1: Joe seems to think that maybe it had too. I

342
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 1: can't confirm that, but we know for sure that this

343
00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 1: one had three three rounds with three barrels, which means

344
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: that whoever was putting this together was trying to hit

345
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 1: somebody no matter what happens. Because remember, a bullet has

346
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,639
Speaker 1: to come out of the side. This box, or this

347
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,239
Speaker 1: medallion box isn't that tall, so it's not as if

348
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 1: you could stand up a twenty two cartridge round in

349
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,440
Speaker 1: it and have stuff behind it to light it off easily.

350
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,920
Speaker 1: So it had to go out the side. So when

351
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,239
Speaker 1: Joan got her book, you open a book with the

352
00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 1: spine to your left, so likely the first round shot

353
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,240
Speaker 1: out of the bottom of the book to hit her

354
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,679
Speaker 1: the directly south of the spine. To hit her in

355
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,240
Speaker 1: the abdomen, but it also shot out the top, you know,

356
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 1: which could also Besides, if she opened it from the

357
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 1: direction or you know, if the guy really hit the jackpot,

358
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 1: she opens it and somebody else is standing right in

359
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 1: front of her, then hey, jack pot, you killed two people,

360
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 1: Which is what happens with the lensa case because it

361
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,840
Speaker 1: had three and I don't know which way he opened it,

362
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 1: but he must have in some way opened it so

363
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,200
Speaker 1: that one round was at him and then there was people,

364
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 1: you know, either in front of him or to the

365
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 1: side of him. However, the case may be so that

366
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 1: it shot in the opposite directions and hit those two people. Well,

367
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 1: so somebody is very intentionally figuring out the way this

368
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 1: thing is opening to hit people, like they definitely want

369
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,719
Speaker 1: to take people out. Those cases are usually like books

370
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 1: and that they have a spine. They have a hinge

371
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 1: box side, and then there's the three other sides. So

372
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,440
Speaker 1: it's not like I don't think that, Yeah, I think

373
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,479
Speaker 1: the thing is is that they didn't set it up

374
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 1: so that a round would go out the hinge side.

375
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,879
Speaker 1: That's intention is go out all the other sides because

376
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,639
Speaker 1: likely no matter which way somebody's opening. If it's flat

377
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 1: to them, it's gonna get up. And that's that's the

378
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 1: insidious bit of the way that this whole thing was.

379
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: This trap was set to me, and and that that

380
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 1: whole The use of the filament, the use of multiple rounds,

381
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 1: the use of pointing of multiple barrels, those are things

382
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 1: that would become signatures of the zip gun bomber. Another

383
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 1: thing would be the return address, because the return address

384
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 1: on the packages would appear to be from major organizations,

385
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,360
Speaker 1: like one of them was from the March of Dimes.

386
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: And there would also be something to indicate something to

387
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,880
Speaker 1: entice the person to open it, like free offer inside

388
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: or free gift or something something in that kind of

389
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 1: verbiage inside. Yeah, it kind of was a big surprise,

390
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: but something to draw them in. And the second gun

391
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 1: was it also made of similar stuff. Break line is

392
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: from what I can understand, it was also made from

393
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: brake lines, ballpoint pen, a spring lodged in to make

394
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: the circuits, some batteries in there. Yes, like these things

395
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: all appear to generally be the same, and there are

396
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 1: some questions that I have, but will address that later on.

397
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 1: In terms of specifics, the part that makes me curious

398
00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: about the whole thing that makes me want to build

399
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: one of these things is I don't know. I I

400
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 1: totally see how how to build one of these things

401
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: would be very easy. The tricky part, it seems to me,

402
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: so you go to close this thing up, you've armed it,

403
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: the batteries are all in place and connected and everything.

404
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: Getting that cover shut without shooting the guns off, that's tricky.

405
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: The rest of it not too hard. But I hate

406
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 1: to tell you this, Joe, but it's not. How many

407
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: times have you bought something with with like watch batteries

408
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 1: pre installed. It's a little plastic and the watch works. Well,

409
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of what I was thinking, is what

410
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: he must have done. But you know, I was trying

411
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: to think of any other way to do it. I

412
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: can't really think of it. But no, I think that's

413
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: probably the simple. The tricky thing about bomb making those

414
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: not blowing yourself. It's like, have we ever talked about this,

415
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: that my old man was in bomb disposal? Okay, and

416
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 1: the fact that he still has all his bits and

417
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: pieces to me is amazing. But it turns out that

418
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: for the most part, as long as you understand electrical

419
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: search treat and the chemical comp hounds to go into it.

420
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 1: It's pretty easy to build, disturbingly, so it's easy to

421
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: build and not not you know, easy, but relatively speaking,

422
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: if you know what you're doing, it's not too hard

423
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: to pull him apart without igniting them. Yeah, I don't think.

424
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: I don't think there's very in real life. It's not

425
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 1: like in the movies. Whether there's they're so devilcy colomplex

426
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: that if you cut the wrong wire you will all

427
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: blow up. Yeah, and look, I put the greenwuyer where

428
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: the red wire goes, so that you'll put a row.

429
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: You figured out my clever ruse. Now it's noting like

430
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 1: I'm not really like that at Okay, keep moving forward

431
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: in her story here before you get too far off

432
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: the topic. Um okay. So this whole thing with Mr

433
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: Lenza happens in October of ninety three. Six months later,

434
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: on the fifth of April, a package addressed to one

435
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: Richard McGarrell would show up at a home that it

436
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: turns out he had he no longer lived out, but

437
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 1: he had previously been living at, and that was the

438
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: home of his sister, Alice Caswell. Alice was seventy five

439
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 1: at the time. But this package shows up at her

440
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: Brooklyn home and you know, she she looks at it

441
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: and she says, that's weird. Okay, well what's in here?

442
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: And just like the last one, Alice opens it up

443
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: and as you can guess, she was shot. She was

444
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: not killed by the bullet. She did survive, though of

445
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: course she was injured. And so far we've got three

446
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: different victims, and it appears that there's no real connection

447
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: between them, and that seems to be an ongoing thing

448
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: in this case, is there's no real obvious connection for

449
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: one person In the next time. Four out of the

450
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: five victims had government jobs, and the government slash military

451
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: employment does appear to eventually come out as a connection,

452
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: but it's one the last. The last victim was a

453
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: real estate agent. I think he was retired. That did

454
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,719
Speaker 1: he have some military connection? Was he retired military? Not

455
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: that I can tell. But but let's let's keep going

456
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: because we're we're too away from him. Okay, we got

457
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: victims to go here. Unfortunately, was that what it is?

458
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: That was just skipping ahead? So it would be over

459
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: a year before the zip gun bomber would strike again.

460
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: This time at the Gilmore home. The Gilmore's lived in Queens.

461
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: Stephanie Gaffney, who was eighteen years old and also about

462
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: eight months pregnant, was on the phone with somebody when

463
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: she saw a package addressed to quote unquote Gilmore or occupant.

464
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: Fun fact, opening mail that comes like that to your

465
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: house is not mail fraud. Actually, any mail that comes

466
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: to your house that's not opt right. Well, but even

467
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: like the one before where she it was to her brother,

468
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: it's not mail fraud. It's addressed to I think mail

469
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: fraud is the wrong term, but it's not against the

470
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: law to open mail that belongs to somebody else if

471
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: it comes to you, to your home, Yeah, it's packages included. Sorry.

472
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: By the way, though, what what this person is doing,

473
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: our our perpetrators doing by mailing and explosive like this

474
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: is against the law. It is surprised. I mean, if

475
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: you consider it a gun, it's totally against the law

476
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: because rifles and shotguns I've I've learned can be mailed

477
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: with disclaimers, but handguns can't be sent through the U. S.

478
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 1: Postal Service. They have to be done through other carriers.

479
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: So if you consider this on the same par as

480
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: that it's illegal. Bombs are definitely and yeah, if you

481
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: could just like, oh, well it's a bomb, well that's yeah. Also,

482
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: you know, with the intention of hurting people, pretty illegal.

483
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 1: Illegal just generally tend to take anything serious, you know,

484
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: anything having to do with them. They take extra seriously.

485
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: You can plan on extra penalties. Of course, of course

486
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: you're you're just gonna get the extra fed penalty. Stand right,

487
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: if you lobbed a bomb through my window, they wouldn't

488
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: they wouldn't care that much. But yeah, if there's to

489
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: the U. S. Mail, they got all bent out of shape. Really,

490
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,959
Speaker 1: So Stephanie, she she finds this package. Uh, and just

491
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: so you know, Gilmore was the last name of her

492
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: father and her grandfather. Her grandfather had been a New

493
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: York City police officer. I can't say that for sure.

494
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: I don't know why her name is different than her father's,

495
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: but there's all kinds of reasons there. I'm not gone there.

496
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: I can't guess. But the point is is that the

497
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: package contained a book. So we've gone book medallion box,

498
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: medallion box, and we're back to a book. And when

499
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: she opened that book, it went off just like all

500
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 1: the other packages. But she wasn't hit directly. Instead, she

501
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: was hit by the shrapnel and apparently she was burned.

502
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: It burned her abdomenrapnel. Well, the when the bullet goes off,

503
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: it can shatter the break line. His break line is

504
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: not heavy duty metal. I mean, we just hadn't said

505
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: that yet, so I understand what thank you I was asking.

506
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: It's my impression that the rest of these have been

507
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: just like a gun going off and people getting hit

508
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: by bullets. We hadn't said anything about their actually being

509
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: an explosion going on. Okay, so we I think Joe

510
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: and I made a presumption in the beginning when we

511
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: talked about the fact that zip guns are not permanent guns,

512
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: and they can explode. They can misfire and discharge their

513
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: the power in the ignition, and it may not actually

514
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: shoot the bullet. It may just just blow up. But

515
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, another another source of strapping off from this

516
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: is like, say, if you're building yourself a little homemade thing,

517
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: and you've got a box inside a hall of that

518
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: book and you don't want to be too obvious about it,

519
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: so you don't cut a hole for the barrel to

520
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: stick out of. But it's a book. Yeah, there's so so, yeah,

521
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: but you're not going to get injured from some people.

522
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: We can go the long and the short of his

523
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: part of it exploded and she was something hitter piece

524
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: of something hitter being you know. It wasn't threatening, but

525
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: of course she's pregnant. They immediately and something blew up.

526
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: They immediately take her the hospital and the doctors say,

527
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: your baby's in distress. We're gonna induce labor. Don't worry.

528
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,239
Speaker 1: She had a healthy baby girl. Everybody was fine. She

529
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: survived the burns and she recovered from all of that,

530
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: so she is okay there. So here's something to keep

531
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: in mind for Stephanie is that the reason that she

532
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: wasn't hit with a round when this package went off

533
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: is that she didn't open it straight on, like we

534
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: talked about before, how you'd open it with a hinge

535
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: with a book with she had. She said, she opened

536
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: it at an angle, so almost as if the corner,

537
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: the lower right hand corner was pointed straight at her.

538
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: So when she opened and it went off, that's the

539
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: reason that she wasn't hit with a round. So she

540
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: was very lucky. And why she did that, I can't

541
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: remember why it was because she was on the phone

542
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: doing it one handed, or I can imagine it's a

543
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: ricking bomber, that's why. But you're asking a serious question.

544
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: Um No, she was very lucky though that she has scraped,

545
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: you know, escaped getting shot and having much much more

546
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: harm from from this. Probably getting shot and the gut

547
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: when you're pregnant is kind of serious, yea. Our our

548
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: final incident would take place on the twenty of June.

549
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: Again nearly all an entire year passes between incidences, and

550
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: our next player on the docket would be Richard Basil.

551
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: He is seventy seven. Richard got a package that had

552
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: a video cassette in it, and I have to presume

553
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: based on the time that it's a VHS concept beta,

554
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: because beta is better. I can't think it was going

555
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: by that point. I was gonna say, I don't know

556
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: what else would be a video cassette. I'm pretty sure

557
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: it was a VHS cassette, and I'm pretty sure he

558
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: didn't cram a couple of decl batteries in to this one.

559
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: So well, but this one so okay, So here, let's

560
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: talk about this, because that's been a lot of time

561
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: trying to figure this one out. Is a video cassette

562
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: is about the same height as those medallion boxes. And

563
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: I think remember the VHS cassettes always came in that

564
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: cardboard sleeve, so sometimes they came in those big plastic things,

565
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: which made them even bigger. So if it if it

566
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: was in the sleeve or the plastic thing, that would

567
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: explain how he got Actually, the plastic case would yes,

568
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: the crime shehell would totally explain how he managed to

569
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: get a d sel a couple of de cells in there. Yeah,

570
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: I don't think he would have used de sails anyway,

571
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: because I mean, using the sails on a big book

572
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: is great because they weigh a lot. But you pick

573
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: up a video cassette, you're presuming this guy thinks about that.

574
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: Somebody's going to realize that as they're picking up his

575
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: happy let. This guy planned to stuff pretty carefully. He

576
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: probably took that, but obviously, you know, he opens it

577
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: and it goes off and it shatters a window in

578
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: his home. He's not hurt, his wife isn't hurt. Again,

579
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: just like with Stephanie, he didn't open it directly square on.

580
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: He had it at an angle. He also said he

581
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: had it away from him when he opened it what

582
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 1: I take I think he said it on the table

583
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: and it was He just kind of looked at it

584
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: was like I wonder what that is, and he reached

585
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: over to open it or pull it out of its case,

586
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: and that's when he ignited it. But you know, lucky

587
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: for him, the worst thing it did was break a

588
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: window in his house. Yeah that's pretty expensive. Well it

589
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: is expensive, but then against so its single pane windows.

590
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: But after that, the zip gun bombers seems to stop entirely.

591
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: There's there's no more loaded packages sent to New York

592
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: residence in the last twenty years. And as far as

593
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: I know, and this is an open investigating because Joan

594
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: was killed, so not all the details are out there,

595
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: but as far as I know, no fingerprints or DNA

596
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: evidence was ever recovered from the packages, and the police

597
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: don't really have a clue of who or why this

598
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: was done by. Uh, they haven't ever charged anyone. And

599
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: as Joe said before, everybody that received one of these

600
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: packages apparently had either a civil service or a military connection,

601
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: but there's no real connection other than they worked for

602
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: a government body. I mean, they all worked for different

603
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: groups like sanitation department, education, department, um cop, I mean

604
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: a real estate Yeah. And then there's Richly like his wife,

605
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: both retired real estate and so none of it makes

606
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: any sense really. Well, had it occurred to me that

607
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: maybe maybe think I was bent out of shape over

608
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: certain issues, and some of them were government related like

609
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: sanitation or whatever, or the schools or the police. But

610
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: but trying to make a point by targeting one random

611
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: retire sanitation worker is weird. Well, I agree, I agree,

612
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: But that's this symbolic act maybe, and then and and

613
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: maybe the reason he's targeted a real estate agent is

614
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: perhaps you know, housing prices in New York City and

615
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: say shot up. Yeah, I'm serious. And so I thinks, Okay,

616
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pix one person that I think is part

617
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: of the problem here and just kill him, you know.

618
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: And so that's that's kind of what I'm wondering, because

619
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to understand the connection between all these people. Yeah, well, yeah,

620
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: if there is, we can Yeah, I was gonna say,

621
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: we can talk maybe in theory the fact that maybe

622
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: there doesn't always have to be a connection. It might

623
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: be totally random, and it maybe it just happens at

624
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: three quarters of people who live in New York work

625
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: for the freaking government. Maybe that's what it is. Yeah, um,

626
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: I will tell you that this is still an ongoing

627
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: investigations that don't call the police. Yeah, totally call the police.

628
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 1: Last thing I read said that there is a hundred

629
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: thousand dollar reward out for, you know, for information leading

630
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: to an arrest, which at this this long past, I

631
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: really kind of don't think it's going to ever happen.

632
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,959
Speaker 1: But as we talked about, it's a serious crime because

633
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: somebody was killed and be they're violating federal law by

634
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: sending guns and explosives and things you should never be

635
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: doing through the US Postal Service. Uh, the the U

636
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: s postal services for Netflix and game Fly And that's

637
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 1: because nobody sends anything else through the mail. So hey,

638
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: nobody sends anything except for like those stupid packets of

639
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: coupons and Exfinity stuff through the mail. And you know,

640
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I some some bozo sent me a

641
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: wedding save the date card in the mail the other day,

642
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: So that's that's getting used it as well. Yeah, I

643
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: don't know, And I'll talk. I'll tell you about it later,

644
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: will mock it later, Okay, well, that is all that

645
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: we have in terms of the story, so we should

646
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: probably move to the theory section. But before we do,

647
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. Get your wardrobe ready for

648
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661
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Speaker 1: hassle free, and this is what Devon is supposed to say.

663
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: But she's in the bathroom now, okay, Devon, so you

664
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,239
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669
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671
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672
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Speaker 1: code sideways. Go there now and we're back. So let's

673
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 1: talk about our first theory. Theory number one is that

674
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: the bomber is Craig kip Son of Correct This, and

675
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: this is the initial belief of the New York Police Department.

676
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: Craig was, at the time that his mother was killed,

677
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: twenty seven years old, and apparently had been working for

678
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 1: his father at their marine consulting business. What marine consulting

679
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: business is, I don't know. Marines come in, it's how

680
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 1: do I claim my gun? And then I don't. Oh,

681
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: I think it's I don't think that's it. I think

682
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's the that's the thing where you um,

683
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: you know, talk to people about the sea. You consult one, Okay,

684
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. Not long before the package that killed

685
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: Joan Arride. Craig was fired by his father for reasons

686
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: that I don't know, something wrong. He must have done

687
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: something wrong. He told them that their boats were thinking

688
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: because of God. Yeah. Maybe the cops believed that Craig

689
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: had sent the package to his parents as a way

690
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: to get back at them. Supposedly his handwriting was similar

691
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: to writing that was on the package. Uh, though, I'll

692
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: be honest, I've only seen that listed on the entry

693
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 1: in Unsolved Mysteries about this story, and I don't trust

694
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: what you see on the old USM page. So who

695
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: knows but they But by the way, it wasn't curse

696
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: that it was block letters, if I recall correctly, right,

697
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 1: I don't know that for sure. I've never I've never

698
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: seen a photo of it, so I can't say for sure.

699
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: But I also do remember reading. I believe it was

700
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: on the same Unsolved Mysteries post Craig sent was picked

701
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: up by sniffer dogs on the package, But I don't

702
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: know how long after the fact that happened, and if

703
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: Craig had been in the home and near the package

704
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: after dated or whatever. Right, Like, So there's there's a

705
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: whole bunch of questions that for for that bit of

706
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: information from the Unsolved Mysteries entry that I have. But

707
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: what doesn't make sense to me is, Okay, why did

708
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: he send it to his mother? Because it sounds like

709
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: his dad was the one who fired him, so why

710
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: would he target her. Well, you don't know why he

711
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: was fired. I mean, it's it's possible that it was

712
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: mom's behest. Yeah, it could have been the mom's behest.

713
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 1: It's also you know, the other thing is he could

714
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: have been trying to get back at his dad by

715
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: hurting his mom because he knew his dad loved his

716
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: mom and like it would hurt him to see her

717
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 1: hurting or to lose her versus him. You know, it's

718
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: that like death is too good for him sort of thing.

719
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:18,959
Speaker 1: I got to hurt the people near him, or maybe

720
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: he was kind of a control for you can he

721
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: insisted on an opening all the mail himself, you know,

722
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: and the dad, And yeah, it was just so dad

723
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: would automatically get it no matter who it was mailed to.

724
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: Kind of his daughter actually open it all up, you know,

725
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: except for on Mother's Day. But yeah, I have bigger

726
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: problems with this than well, yeah, I mean you know,

727
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: ignoring that and presuming that the cops are right, what

728
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 1: is Craig's connection to all of the other victims. Well, yeah,

729
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: and even if we're going to go with the typical

730
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: Joe theory of it was just the one person and

731
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: they're trying to cover it up, why wait twelve years

732
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: after you'd already been exonerated and they like, couldn't love you,

733
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: a case against you? Why wait that long? That's why

734
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: he is not exactly the ideal suspects here. Yeah, I mean,

735
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: maybe one of the others. But again, that long gap

736
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: does sort of looked funny. But that's my that's my

737
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: big question mark. I guess with like all of these

738
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: as as, I know, that's going to be your theory

739
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: of choices. This it was one person and all the

740
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: rest of them were just this weird collateral damage, where

741
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: that twelve year gap is really troubling for any of

742
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: the theory. That's why I don't I don't believe whoever

743
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: whoever mailed if it was more than one person and

744
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: said they wanted to kill somebody, but covered it by

745
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: by mailing it to several random people. And as also,

746
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: I think that what it was is somebody works, say

747
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: in the New York City Police Department or wherever the

748
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: wherever the bomb fragments were capt somebody could examine the

749
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: fragments see how the original bomb was made ten twelve

750
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: years before, and picked up the idea the idea and

751
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: ran with it. Then maybe, but the whole thing against

752
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: Craig doesn't make any sense. I'll be and I'll be

753
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: honest with you that the second theory that we have

754
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: here doesn't make any sense either, because it's it's even

755
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: thinner than the first one, which is that Harold Kip

756
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: did it. Jones husband. Well, I mean it's not enough

757
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: to fire you, dude, I gotta like you thrown in

758
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: shail too. Yeah, well, okay, maybe, I mean there's the

759
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: traditional you know, matrimonial discontent is something there, but I've

760
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 1: only seen this listed in one place and it's never

761
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 1: fleshed out. I really think that some writer dove tailed

762
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: it in and I foolishly have now just repeated it.

763
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: But there's nothing to support it anywhere. So that one, actually,

764
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: I think is a complete another useless theory. I'm sure

765
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: the police looked at because but but I think that

766
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: it very quickly fell apart because there's just nothing to

767
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: support it. Well, I mean it could have been not Again,

768
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: there's nothing to support this whatsoever. But you know, sometimes

769
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: when I look at cases like this, they think, well,

770
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: the intention wasn't to kill. It was too maim so

771
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: that that person became more reliant on their spouse because

772
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: their spouse was feeling moon chausen by props or kind

773
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: of thing, or even just like was feeling like, oh,

774
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: this person is going to leave me because they don't

775
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: need me anymore. So they've got to need me again.

776
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: And if they're a paraplegic, they'll need me. I'll have

777
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: to take care of them. They'll be depended on me. No, no,

778
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: I I mean, you may be right, Devon, but again

779
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: they're bad. Yeah. Well, let's let's move on to the

780
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: next there, which at least has some substance to it,

781
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: and that this was all done by a guy named

782
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 1: Stephen Wabra. This is a guy we have not introduced

783
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: into the story yet because he wants to make sure,

784
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, completely outside character. So let's talk about Mr Wavra.

785
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: They didn't know any of these people. That's a big problem. Okay,

786
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: So back in three, the cops rated Wabra's house for

787
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: some reason which I can't find why they did it.

788
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: We call that an undisclosed reason. Correct, Okay, but when

789
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 1: when they did, they found the makings of a book

790
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: bomb on his kitchen to able, and by that mean,

791
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: I mean a haul out out book with the components

792
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: of a bomb. And I think that well, and I

793
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: think this means, yeah, it does, but I think this

794
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: means a real bomb, not a zip gun style bomb,

795
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: but more of an i e. D. Like a real

796
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: go boom kind of bomb. By the way, to address

797
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: something you said much earlier Devon about what is this

798
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: really a bomb? Actually not entirely. Bombs are meant to

799
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: just blow up and send stuff flying in all directions,

800
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, whereas these things direct bullets and specific directions.

801
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: So so there sort of a bomb. But I think

802
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: that's why they call it a zip gun is they

803
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: didn't know really what the hell to call him. But yeah,

804
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of a hybrid between a gun and a bomb.

805
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but but you know, they find this stuff

806
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: and Wadra at the time, he says he was planning

807
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: to use it on a local military base. And the

808
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: reason why, well, we're not entirely sure of, because it

809
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: turns out that Wabra served in the Navy from seventy

810
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, and while he was enlisted, he was

811
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And how much that particular illness

812
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: played in his decision to build this bomb, it's hard

813
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: to say. I mean, it's feasible that it played a

814
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 1: significant role, but we don't know if he was receiving

815
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: treatment or getting medications, so I don't know. I'm not

816
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: going to point to that as his sole reason to

817
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: do all that. And as we and as as as

818
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: we've pointed out before, um statistically, people who are diagnosed

819
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: with things like schizophrenia are more likely to be victims

820
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: of crimes than they are to be perpetrators of crimes.

821
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that they don't do things. It

822
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that some people do do that. But also

823
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: totally you know, it could also be that he was

824
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: booted from the Navy and he was just bitter about it,

825
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: you know, because it booted for legitimate reasons. You really

826
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: don't want to have people who have mental issues. Well,

827
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: and like I said, he said, he tanned. He intended

828
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: to take this this bomb and take it to a

829
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: military base, so he obviously had some listen. The guy

830
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 1: wrote a two hundred and fifty page manifesto but put

831
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: a shame Yeah, in terms of sheer number of pages. Absolutely,

832
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: But the thing is that that incident three that didn't

833
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: that wasn't obviously a zip gun bomb, and it didn't

834
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: directly connect him to the death of Joan Kip. It

835
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: would be later discovered that he did have a connection

836
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: to her because he had gone to Dyker Heights Junior

837
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: High School where she had worked. He apparently had been

838
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: held back for two years and she had been a

839
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: guidance counselor and he had interacted with her. But he

840
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: also said he had nothing against her. But also that's

841
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: like a long time. It was a long time. But

842
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: also I spent a long time since I've been in

843
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: high school. I don't remember, you know, I never got

844
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 1: held back, and there were other kids that did occasionally.

845
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: I don't recall it. The guy, this counselor, has really

846
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: got any input into those decisions anyway. Yeah, there's a

847
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: number of reasons that the kids I knew got held back,

848
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: whether it be from behavioral problems directly, like you know,

849
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: skipping school, kind of problems or just failing classes. But

850
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what the reasons were that he was

851
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: held back. And I gotta tell you that holding a

852
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 1: kid back two years is pretty extreme. Although they used

853
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: to do that lot. They used to think that that

854
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: was how they would clean you up, as they would

855
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: hold you back, you just needed another year to learn. Yeah,

856
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: but I don't know. It was always my nightmare when

857
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: I was in I was like, oh, I got the

858
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: worst thing ever I do. The nineteen year old kid

859
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 1: who was a junior in high school. It was like, oh, yeah,

860
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: I just think that's a really long time to hold

861
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: onto it. And for that to not be connected to

862
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: anybody else, you know, would be one thing. If like

863
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: a bunch of teachers or people connected to that school

864
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: or the hometown we're getting this stuff. But for this one, like, well,

865
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: he happens to have gone to a school where she

866
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: worked ten years ago. Yes, over ten years. I mean,

867
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 1: this is that makes you think of that that scene

868
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: where Steve Busimi has the list of people written down

869
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: and he's putting on the lipstick and then crossing them out.

870
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: That was in that I can't remember the name of

871
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: the movie. I know, Yeah, but that's that's Billy Madison.

872
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: But that's the kind of thing that you would expect.

873
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,479
Speaker 1: But the thing is is that there's there's all kinds

874
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 1: of problems with this because apparently when Joan got her bomb,

875
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: Wafro was in jails. I was gonna say it sounds

876
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: like he would have been in jail if they Yeah,

877
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 1: so he was. He was already incarcerated, and then he

878
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: was again arrested in this This arresting nine would take

879
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: place because he was in the Brooklyn Public Library and

880
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: found to have yet another hollowed out book. But inside

881
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: that book he had exacto knives. Apparently what I heard

882
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: in one account anyways, that he was hiding razor blades

883
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: and had the pages of library books. It sounds like

884
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: what he'd done is put his exactor knives in his

885
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: hollowed out book to to smuggle them in, and that

886
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: was putting them in other books. So when they rested him,

887
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: they found four two caliber cartridges on him, which based

888
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: on his record and I'm presuming the terms of his

889
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: parole were a violation of parole. So he was instantly

890
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: hit with the book. No pun intended a little bit,

891
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: So they obviously charged him and he went to jail.

892
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,479
Speaker 1: So that also means that if that's in ninety five

893
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: and he's in custody, it doesn't make any sense that

894
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,879
Speaker 1: he could have been responsible for the last bomb, which

895
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: was in so this this doesn't work. Yeah, but the

896
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: cops obviously really must have believed he was the bomber

897
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: because and the prosecutors too, because typically people don't even

898
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: go to prison at all, there go back president for

899
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: parole violations. So setting him back for ten years, that's

900
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: pretty I think that he probably from what I can gather,

901
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: it was he had had many, many, many encounters with

902
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying because somebody that this one that happened.

903
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: It was a ninety months sentence that he got out

904
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: in two thousand five after serving a ninety months sentence.

905
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 1: I don't know what came before that. So he just

906
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: he keeps he's uh. I think he spent more life

907
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: in incarcerated than he has out in the free world.

908
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: So that that gives you an idea. Thanks Joe, thanks

909
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: for screwing up there, pudding. Well let's move on to

910
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 1: the next theory here, which is that it wasn't Stephen Wabra,

911
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: it was Stephen Wabra and a friend. Because once the

912
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: cops got ahold of the fact that, oh, well, he

913
00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: was in jail, they immediately said that he had an accomplice. Okay, wait,

914
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: let let me run with this. Though this this, this,

915
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: this will is a self fulfilling prophecy, just let it happen.

916
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: So their theory is that Uabra assembled the components of

917
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: the bombs and then mailed them to a partner who

918
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: was outside of the the jail system, and that person

919
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: then mailed the packages, which I have to say, stealing

920
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: a phrase from Devon is the dumbest thing I've heard

921
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: all day. But well, I was gonna say in a

922
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: long time, but I was. I decided just to classify

923
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: today because here are lots of dumb things because I'm

924
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 1: on the internet all the time. Um, because but listen,

925
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: they go, they go through Chrisoners outgoing mail. They inspected,

926
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: so we can't like that just doesn't pass the sniff

927
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: test to me. That they would be like, oh, look,

928
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 1: he's got these little metal tubes and he's got these

929
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: springs and he's just mailing it out. That's weird. But

930
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: know it's it's it is an idiotic although it's not

931
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: it's not inconceivable that an accomplice actually did mail the

932
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: last bomb while he was locked up in jail. It's

933
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: not because what about the first one, because it appears

934
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 1: he was incarcerated when the first one happened as well. Yeah,

935
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: and that one could have been a different person, or

936
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: it could have been as accomplice. But I mean, it's like,

937
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, one of these bombs, they're not that complicated.

938
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: I mean, Wabra, it could have been this accomplice actually

939
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: showed Uabra how to make these bombs. That could be

940
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: that Wabra showed him the other guy, how to make them,

941
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: because they're not that hard to make. And that's not

942
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: a bad point that you're making their Joe. I will

943
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: mention here before we get to before we finished this

944
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,479
Speaker 1: particular theory that the second party's name is never given,

945
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: which is frustrating because there's a roommate in three time,

946
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: when the cops come in and find him with all

947
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: this explosive stuff, there's a roommate who he says was

948
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: never involved. But that roommate's name is never disclosed. So

949
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: we'll call him Justin. Yeah, let's call him Justin because this,

950
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: we're presuming that Justin is also the person that is

951
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: involved in the later mailing while he's in jail. They

952
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: do say that there's some loose ends that they tie

953
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: to Justin, which is the fact that the victims and

954
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 1: Justin appear to have all used the same pharmacy even

955
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: though they're all over the city. I thought that was, well,

956
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 1: it's it's either they used the same pharmacy or they

957
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: lived in the same neighborhoods, so over this span, and

958
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: so some of these are in Brooklyn summer and Queens.

959
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: One is oh gosh, where's the other one that's on

960
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: the left side of the map that I can't think

961
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, but but they're all over So

962
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: it's weird that Justin, as we're calling him, is in

963
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: the neighborhood or using the same pharmacy as all these people.

964
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: So you can see why the cottage saying, well, this

965
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,959
Speaker 1: is as weird as Buddy is all over the same place,

966
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: look at that guy. But it's but also like equally weird.

967
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: They're not like, well, then Justin did it. They're like, well,

968
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: but still was right, right? We we don't we don't

969
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: have enough to pull any of them in. We're just

970
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: saying this. But then they go on to what is

971
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 1: our now our next theory, which is that it was

972
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: Uabra and Justin and one of their friends. Because they

973
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: getting more and more complicated because because they build on

974
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 1: this theory, and they say that this third person who

975
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: was also unnamed, and well, let's just call up Aaron.

976
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: So we've got Justin and Aaron and Stephen Wavra, and

977
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: they say that according to this the addition of Aaron

978
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: is because Aaron was the one who was paying for

979
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: the bombs and picking out the targets. So now it's

980
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: one layer more removed from the actual person doing the

981
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: dirty work. So Aaron tells Justin, who then tells Stephen Wavra,

982
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: who then is doing it as as a way of

983
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: as a way of insulating yourself from being charged with

984
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: the crime and getting and going to prison. This is

985
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 1: really perverse and stupid, because actually it's safer just to

986
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: build up yourself oft and mail them yourself, because you're

987
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: not letting anybody else do You're in a single cell

988
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: y yeah yeah, Whereas this is a sure way to

989
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: get ratted out in the Center Center jail. So it's

990
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: the tumbest thing I've ever heard. I you know, I,

991
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: while we're doing this, I think that's the dumbest thing

992
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 1: I've ever heard, because it's like, basically what they did

993
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: is they said, well, we've got this guy who's got

994
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: um some pretty significant mental illness going on, and you

995
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 1: know that obviously makes him dangerous. Not my words, I'm

996
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: just putting words in the pop's mouths, makes him really dangerous.

997
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: So he's obviously guilty of this. Now, let's see if

998
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 1: we can find a way to make it seem like

999
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: he's definitely guilty of this. Oh, he was in jail

1000
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: for two of the bombings. Okay, no problem, there was

1001
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: another person. Oh uh, that other person couldn't possibly done that. Awesome,

1002
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: there's another person. Still, because we are so convinced that

1003
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 1: this one person is definitely guilty, that we will tailor

1004
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 1: our story to whatever we have to tailor it to

1005
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: to make sure that this guy seems guilty, which is,

1006
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: as we've been saying, the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

1007
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 1: It does sound like the logic of a four year

1008
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 1: old telling a story. It's not even that, it's just

1009
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's like those forensic files episodes where

1010
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: they're like and then twenty years later, Dina evidence proved

1011
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: that this person was definitely not guilty because the cops

1012
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 1: had spent eighteen hours interrogating them with like threatening techniques,

1013
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: so they of course said, oh, you're right, I did

1014
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: do that. The phrase Joe loves the rubber hose. The

1015
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: rubber hose. Yeah, I mean, I just think they just

1016
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: got so fixated, and that's really a detriment. I'm sorry,

1017
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 1: I'm a little bos It's a really detriment to the

1018
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: case in general, because I'm sure there were other things

1019
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: they could have been investigating that would have been like

1020
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: better leads coming from this stuff that they probably didn't

1021
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: because they were like, no, no, we've got our guy.

1022
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: It's fine. It's Stephen wav gets too complicated. And this

1023
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: applies and not just crime, but in science and other

1024
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: things as well. You know, sometimes anytime you have to

1025
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: add a third person to like make your theory work. Yeah, yeah,

1026
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: it's another possibility is that it was it could have

1027
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 1: been somebody that wabrun knew, because it's not unusual for

1028
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: people to share common hobbies and pursuits. Yeah, you tend

1029
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: to band together around endeavors. He knew some guy, maybe

1030
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: somebody even met from the military or whatever, that was

1031
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: really into amateur bomb making and all kinds of stuff

1032
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: like that, and maybe this guy showed him a thing

1033
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: or two. But but Wabern himself never actually did a thing.

1034
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: And as far as mailing these things, somebody else entirely

1035
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: and wab for his part, didn't didn't wrap the guy

1036
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 1: up because question he turns out to actually be a patsy. Yeah,

1037
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: it's hard to say. We've got two theories left in

1038
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,439
Speaker 1: this uh, and these are actually going to also go quick,

1039
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: just like the last two the So this next theory

1040
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: is that this entire thing was perpetrated by some unknown crank.

1041
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: That's my words, because as with all stories like this,

1042
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible that the person that is responsible is

1043
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: obviously unknown but is also rather unconnected to all of

1044
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 1: the individuals that were targeted, and the targeting was done

1045
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 1: based on some unknown perceived slight I mean the most

1046
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: subtle of interactions, you know, as in, you pass by

1047
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: somebody and you look at them and keep going, and

1048
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: they may take that as a slight kind of unknown slight,

1049
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: like the simplest weirdest stuff. I'm shaking their head because

1050
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't even know that there has to

1051
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: be a reason. You know, sometimes people are just like

1052
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill some people. It doesn't matter who they are,

1053
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 1: entirely random. Although I'm gonna tell you, I like, I

1054
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: loved the statement from one of the New York Police

1055
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: Department guys. He's like, that's the weird thing about this

1056
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: is that New Yorkers, if they've gone a problem with you,

1057
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: they'll just comed at you. They'll put you in the face,

1058
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: or they'll throw something through your window, like they'll confront you.

1059
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: And this just doesn't make any should be And that's

1060
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: why this guy, I was going to say, and that's

1061
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: why this guy is clearly from the Midwest, no doubt.

1062
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: Well that's technically the Pacific Northwest, but whatever. Yeah, But

1063
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 1: it might be too that the people themselves are totally unimportant.

1064
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: They're randomly picked out of a picked out of a

1065
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: phone book. And it might be the bombs themselves are

1066
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: the message. It might be that, you know, I mean,

1067
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: like this bomb had two barrels, this bomb at three.

1068
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: I mean, this one was the Odyssey, that one was

1069
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 1: Melville book. I mean, you know, it might be some

1070
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: sort of weird, weird code that we can't comprehend. You know,

1071
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,439
Speaker 1: it could be something like that. Doubt it, but that's

1072
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 1: but it could it may it may well be there

1073
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: was a message there somewhere, but the people had nothing

1074
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: to do with it. Yeah. Well, our our final theory

1075
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: is the I think the worst in terms of like

1076
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: spooky worst, and that is that this is done by

1077
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 1: a bunch of copycats. Because the way this goes is that,

1078
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: I mean, basically, the first one was sent by somebody

1079
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 1: at eleven years went by, and there's a ton of

1080
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: reporting that happened on this story, and over time details

1081
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: leaked out. I've read the early like the early nineties

1082
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: reporting before the second bomb arrived, and there's tons of

1083
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: details that are leaking out that could give somebody an

1084
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: idea of what's going on, how to make the bomb,

1085
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: and what some of the key features were, like the

1086
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: multiple of the batteries and the multiple barrels. And but

1087
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,479
Speaker 1: if you think about it, it's entirely possible that somebody's like, oh, hey,

1088
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: I could do that, but I have a medallion box available.

1089
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: Somebody else is like, oh I have a medallion box too, oh,

1090
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: I have a book, like if you think about it,

1091
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: ignoring Joan, the second and the third used a medallion box,

1092
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 1: the fourth used another book, and the fifth used a

1093
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 1: video cassette Like there's I mean, maybe that's just the

1094
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 1: cases that we're handy to the individual, or maybe they

1095
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: mix it up because they figured people might be paranoid

1096
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: about getting a book in the mail later on about

1097
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: getting a b medallion case in the mail, except when

1098
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: they did book medallion case, medallion case book VHS, right, yes,

1099
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: like you think you would constantly be mixing it up.

1100
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 1: But the I also, I can't get a clear sense

1101
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: if the way that it was set up on the

1102
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 1: inside was actually the same, because again this is an

1103
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: open investigation. They haven't spilled all the beans. Everything hints

1104
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 1: at that, but I've also read some stuff that makes

1105
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: me think that maybe there are some differences. And so

1106
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: they're saying we think it's the zip gun bomber, and

1107
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: the media said it's the zip gun bomber, but it

1108
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: may not actually be that. According to the investigative team,

1109
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: they're like, well, no, actually it's different in these three areas,

1110
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: but pretty pretty basic stuff. I mean, here, here's what

1111
01:01:56,120 --> 01:02:00,439
Speaker 1: it is you know, you know better combust No, yeah,

1112
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: I don't want our listeners to know any more about

1113
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 1: making bombs. Okay, I just want to say that it's

1114
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: very very simple. Here's here's why. Here's why it was

1115
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: one guy. Because all the bombs worked, so it was

1116
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: the same guy. I'm pretty sure we don't know, not

1117
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: necessarily the very first one, another one that Stephanie if

1118
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 1: it was, if the one blew, it misfired, but it

1119
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 1: still worked, I don't work yet. But so I mean,

1120
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: it's it's conceivable that the very first one was somebody else,

1121
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: and in the next four were by one guy. So

1122
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: maybe two bombers because because of that gap, And of

1123
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: course the second bomber could have gotten all of his

1124
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 1: information from the papers, he could have been privy to

1125
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: the evidence. And there another worked for the police department,

1126
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 1: worked as a newspaper reporters, saw pictures or saw the

1127
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: actual bombs, had a very good idea how they were made,

1128
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: and again not complicated. And but again these things, even

1129
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 1: though they're not complicated, if you don't do everything exactly right,

1130
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 1: the bomb will not go off. So I think that

1131
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: this guy, whoever it was, was skilled enough that that

1132
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: he to late was able to build these bombs and

1133
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: actually every single one went off. If it was just

1134
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of different cracks, I'm pretty sure at least

1135
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: one wouldn't have gone off. And you know, and and

1136
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: the thing that lends itself to what you're saying there, Joe,

1137
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 1: is the idea that what we talked about before, that

1138
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 1: whole double packed gunpowder issue, if indeed they mean that

1139
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: somebody did homeloads and put more powder in them that

1140
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: would traditionally be in a normal rifle round, then that

1141
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 1: would lend itself to say, oh, hell yeah, it's the

1142
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 1: same guy, because not everybody has that. Well, you can

1143
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: build your own bomb from regular stuff and buy your

1144
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: off the shelf bullet. To be able to pack your

1145
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: own load like that, that that requires a whole another

1146
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: skill set and tools set. I also think the fact

1147
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 1: that like it sounds like it was Brake lines every time.

1148
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: I mean, like, who, how many people just have you

1149
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 1: can go to the store by bricklin. Yeah, but doesn't

1150
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: it make more sense that it would just be like,

1151
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 1: aren't brink lines pretty long? Right? But that's what I mean.

1152
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: It's like, doesn't it make more sense that it would

1153
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,439
Speaker 1: just be like one guy had like some break line

1154
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: lying around and just like cut a bunch of the

1155
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: junkyard and saw him out from underneath the car. Right,

1156
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: But it would be like the same. It seems like

1157
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 1: it'd be the same person. Really they could use. That

1158
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 1: is an ingredient that seems random for everybody to hone

1159
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 1: in onto you, right, because you could just go down

1160
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 1: to the you know, Stephen Wabro's home for zip gun construction.

1161
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: We've got all your your gun yeah, a k A

1162
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 1: like ace hardware, right, and like get a piece of

1163
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 1: pipe and use that. I mean, there's nothing suspicious about

1164
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: buying break line if you're a mechanic. I mean, there's

1165
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: nothing suspicious about buying any of those things. Not at all.

1166
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: You can get to. I mean, the bullets again, we're

1167
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 1: just as likely as just lead lead fishing sinkers. Yeah,

1168
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: they could have just been lead balls and yeah, and

1169
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 1: it's as far as double packed. I thought words like

1170
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: double charged. So that could mean they stuck in two

1171
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 1: bullets in each barrel, or it could mean they stuck

1172
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,439
Speaker 1: in twice as much gunpowder. Yeah, there's a whole bunch

1173
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 1: of ways to go. Yeah, again, I don't think Cartridges

1174
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 1: were really involved in this at all. I think it

1175
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 1: was just it was a little bomb that had two

1176
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: or three barrels leading off of it, that had one

1177
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 1: or two bullets in each barrel. And that's what I

1178
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: think it was. That's that that there were no Cartridges

1179
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: there as far as I can tell, well, as far

1180
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 1: as I know, I have no clue. Like the theories

1181
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: are really solid. Well, anybody could have done this. I

1182
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:36,919
Speaker 1: mean it's so simple, you know, I mean, how hard

1183
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 1: it is to make a little bomb and mail it

1184
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 1: to somebody. Well, I think you actually pointed out a

1185
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 1: good point, A good idea is that it actually is

1186
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 1: complicated enough to make sure that they were and that

1187
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: it was the patients in time to do that, But

1188
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 1: it was somebody who was meticulous. I don't know of

1189
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: their theories, like any of them, you guys know, I

1190
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,040
Speaker 1: don't think any of them are good. I still I

1191
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: just I really am very annoyed that the police just

1192
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 1: went down. They just kind of honed in on this

1193
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: one person and he was the only it was, he

1194
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: was the only one that even halfway plausible suspect they had,

1195
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: which I mean years later they were still hanging on

1196
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: both the suspects. I don't understand why they gave him

1197
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 1: a good hard look. That makes sense. Yeah, all right,

1198
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: Well that's all we've got for this particular story. If

1199
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: you want to read about the story, you're more than

1200
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 1: welcome to do that. You can go to our website

1201
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where we'll have some links

1202
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 1: to the research about this story, although frankly none of

1203
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 1: us better than our podcast, so don't bother while you're there.

1204
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 1: Of course, you could listen to this and download this episode,

1205
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 1: or you can get any of them off of the website.

1206
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: But more importantly, on the website, you're going to find

1207
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: links to a couple other things, like the episode list,

1208
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: which is on the website, as well as links to

1209
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: all of our merchandise from Zazzle and red Bubble. Those

1210
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 1: are there. If you obviously, you're getting the podcast from

1211
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 1: somewhere that you like to get it from, whether that

1212
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 1: be Apple or Stitcher or Google Play or wherever wherever

1213
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 1: you're downloading, Please continue to do so and subscribe. If

1214
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 1: that system allows you to leave a comment at a rating,

1215
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: please leave a comment and a rating. We appreciate the

1216
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,919
Speaker 1: positive comments and ratings, and that's what helps other people

1217
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 1: find us as well. We're on social media, so we

1218
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 1: have the Facebook page and we have the Facebook group.

1219
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 1: To join the group, make sure to answer the questions.

1220
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: There's lots of fun interactions there. We are on Reddit.

1221
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: We have the Reddit page where there's conversation post episode

1222
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 1: conversations happen. We are on Twitter, Twitter, Thank You Joe,

1223
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: where Devin sends out all kinds of weird memes and

1224
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 1: funny fun stuff. So it's fun and it is Thinking

1225
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: Sideways without the G in the middle. We're on Instagram,

1226
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 1: so you can follow us there as well. Podcast not

1227
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways, Yes, podcast. Actually I got to say is

1228
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 1: that I think Twitter is the only one where we

1229
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 1: couldn't put podcast on the edge. Twitter is the outlier

1230
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 1: in that regard, but we're in all of those places.

1231
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 1: And last, and of course not least, is if you

1232
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 1: want to reach out to us and have a conversation

1233
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 1: because you have questions, or you have theories, or you

1234
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: have stories to suggest, or you're the zip gun bomber,

1235
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 1: You're welcome to talk to us, and you can do

1236
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: that by email at our email address, which is Thinking

1237
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh that inbox is

1238
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: always filling up, and we're always working to empty it.

1239
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: So we are answering emails as quickly as possible. But

1240
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:47,799
Speaker 1: with that having been said and all of those points covered,

1241
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:50,759
Speaker 1: I don't have anything else. Do you too have anything

1242
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:54,640
Speaker 1: else for tonight? Nope? All right, Well let's blow this

1243
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: pop stand and we will talk to you guys next week.

1244
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 1: Nipping on out of here, Tata, Well that wasn't very

1245
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 1: koom perfect.