1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast Kara 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: Cooney with us. Let me tell you about Kara. Kara 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: is a bestselling author her book The Good Kings, a 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: dynamic speaker and professor of Egyptian art and architel chitecture 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: at UCLA, specializing in craft production, coffin studies, and ancient economies. 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: She's produced a comparative archaeological television series entitled Out of Egypt, 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: which is on Netflix right now, and her book, again 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: as I just mentioned, is called The Good Kings. Kara, 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: welcome to the program, Thanks for having me on. Looking 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: forward to this and Egypt has fascinated me. My late 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: father was born in Cairo. We're not Egyptian, but that's 13 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: where he was born. And I was just fascinated by 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: Egypt since I was a kid. So what jordinary? Why 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: was he born in Cairo? That's where whether Middle Eastern 16 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: and his mother was on her way to the United 17 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: States via Egypt, and there he came. He was right there. Yeah, 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: they stayed, They stayed until he was sex Actually, I 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: just my mother just did a DNA test and it 20 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: turns out I've got like five percent or less of 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: Egyptian Coptic blood, so I'll take it too. That's why 22 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: you're interested. See it's it's genetic dissonant. It's genetic I mean, 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: very comprehensive book. By the way, with the good kings, 24 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: let's go back. How far back do the pharaohs go? 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: They go back to three thousand BC, and maybe even farther. 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: It depends on how you understand the idea of kingship 27 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: and how you understand the consolidation of the world's first 28 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: regional state. So if we give it that definition, the 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: consolidation of the first regional states, then we'll say about 30 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: five thousand years back, which is, you know, a long 31 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: way when we think of the United States being only 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty some years old, but not that 33 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: long when you think of the entirety of the human species. 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: Was this a family dynasty where the pharaohs all related, 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: kentsecut each dynasty was meant to represent a family, and 36 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: the farther back in history you go, the less our 37 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: understanding of the dynasties really reflects what was actually happening. 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: But the dynastic system that was recorded by an Egyptian 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: priest Manetho in Greek in the fourth century BC. It 40 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: still holds up. We still use it and each Yeah, 41 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: the first dynasty is one family and then second dynasaurs 42 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: another family, and if you like, you can think of 43 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: it as like presidential administrations. You know, when the new 44 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: one comes along, they're like, we're not anything like the 45 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: last one. Dynasties were kind of like that too. So 46 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: the second dynasty wants to differentiate itself from the first 47 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: by saying, oh, we're not going to do any of 48 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: that human sacrifice the first the first dynasty did, and 49 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: the fifth dynasty is gonna be like, we're not going 50 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: to build any of those crazy monstrosities of pyramids like 51 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: the fourth dynasty did. So they try to mix it 52 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: up and change it and be different. How long did 53 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: they last? Generally per dynasty, you know, the dynasties are 54 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 1: going to last any where from thirty forty years, depending 55 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,119 Speaker 1: to the longest dynasty as the ptolemy At Greek dynasty 56 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: of three hundred years. So it depends on how long 57 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,399 Speaker 1: lived they are, how good they are at fighting and 58 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: consolidating that power, and also how much they engaged in 59 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: incest or not, because incests works really well short term, 60 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: but it's not a very good long term solution for 61 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: maintaining genetic health and power over the long run. Were 62 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: there many battles and wars during those eras? There were, 63 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: but not as many as you would think. In Egypt. 64 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: You know, Egypt is a really special place because it's 65 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: got desert on two sides, maybe three if you count 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: the Sudanese side to the south and then the Mediterranean 67 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: seats to the north, and so until the Iron Age, 68 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: Egypt is really protected from external invasion. Then you've got 69 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: that Nile carving its way through the valley, which means 70 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: lots of colonel nice, juicy fat colonels of barley and 71 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: wheat for lots of ample food. You don't have a 72 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: lot of internal aggression either. Everyone's pretty fat and drunk 73 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: all the time. And so you put those two things together. 74 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: Compared to West Asia, the levant Syria, Mesopotamia, or compared 75 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: to Greece, or compared to Rome, or even compared to China, 76 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: Egypt is pretty cushy and for the Bronze Age experience, 77 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't deal with a whole lot of warfare or 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: war lording. But once the Iron Age comes along, all 79 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: bets are off, and Egypt really gets passed from empire 80 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: to empire and has no hope of really keeping these 81 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: empires at bay. And only since nineteen fifty two has 82 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: it really been able to keep out of imperial grasp itself. Kara, 83 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: why are we so fascinated with Egypt? Well, it's about power, 84 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: isn't it? And we want some of that, and we 85 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: want some of that continuity. When you look at a 86 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: place that is able to last for three thousand years 87 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: more or less, with the same language, same religious system, 88 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: same political system, same cultural ways, that's something that we 89 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: are attracted to. It's something that we understand viscerally, and 90 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 1: we want some of that. When when you see that 91 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: kings are able to bury themselves in coffins of solid 92 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: gold with all of these treasures, this is power we understand. 93 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: And as I explain in the book The Good Kings, 94 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: I am claiming that our system is not very different, 95 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: and we can claim all kinds of modern exceptionalism, but 96 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: our system is much closer to the ancient Egyptian mysteries 97 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: and magic, or the appearance and optics of mystery and magic. 98 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: Then we would like to believe. You examine five kings 99 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: and the good King's book in this reign lasted them 100 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: over what period of time? Yeah, I start with Cufu 101 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: of Dynasty four and he's about twenty five hundred BC, 102 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: and I end with Taharka of Dynasty twenty five and 103 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: he dates to around I would say seven like six 104 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: fifty BCEs. So it's, you know, it's a pretty good 105 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: run between the five and then the king's in between. 106 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: I talk about some water. It's the third of Dynasty twelve, 107 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: and then Acinatin of Dynasty eighteen, and of course Ramsey's 108 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: the Great of Dynasty nineteen. And then what happened after 109 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: the five? After the five you get the Iron Age, 110 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: the Age of Empire, and really it starts with Taharka 111 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: because Taharka of Dynasty twenty five he's a Sudanese king 112 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: or Kushite king, and he takes Egypt into the Kushite Empire. 113 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: And that's the beginning of Egypt really getting passed from 114 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: empire to empire. Because after Taharka you get the Assyrians 115 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: coming in, sacking Memphis, sacking thieves, and then after that 116 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: you get the Persians coming in. Then Alexander the Great. 117 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: I have skipped the Neo Babylonians in there, because you 118 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: have Ascherbanapal coming in as well. Oh sorry, he's Assyrian. 119 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: You have um oh, who's our will We're going to 120 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: skip it. But then after Alexander the greats you're you're 121 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: going to have the Telemaic Empire of the Greeks, and 122 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: then you'll have the Romans coming in, and then after 123 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: that you'll have the Arab invasion, and then after that 124 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: you're you're going to have European invasions. So, you know, 125 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: Egypt ruled the world, much like when you look at 126 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: Italy and you're like, my gods, look at that they 127 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: You know, the Romans ruled the world. And then after 128 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: you go on that downward slide, you see the decrease 129 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: and power of a place that once was extraordinarily great, 130 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: and it's almost like they become fat and happy in 131 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: their ability to wield that power, and then they're not 132 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: as competitive when when the secondary states come along that 133 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: they have helped form those places come and take them 134 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: over in turn, what was the period where Moses and 135 00:07:55,240 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: Israel left Egypt? I put that section into the Ramsid period. 136 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: And I really like to talk about the Israel and 137 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: Moses period within the nineteenth dynasty. I think it fits 138 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: their best because if you look at your Exodus story 139 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: and you look at the city that the Hebrew slaves 140 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: they're building with the bricks without straw and all of that, 141 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: it's the city of Pithom p i o m As 142 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: is written in many of the Bibles, and that city 143 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: is almost certainly p Ramses or pair Ramses, the house 144 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: of Ramses, and that would have been the capital city 145 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: in the northeastern Delta. And it also fits with the steela. 146 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of a big marker of a boundary that 147 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: Marnepta king Marnapta, son of Ramses, the second set up 148 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: and he claims to have conquered the people of Israel. 149 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: And at the very bottom of the steela, the people 150 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: of Israel are mentioned for the first time. They mentioned 151 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: is a tribal people on that steela, and it's it's 152 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: very interesting to see how the Exodus biblical record matches 153 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: up in many ways with the Egyptian formal record. We'll 154 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: get into that now. Kufo started the Great Pyramid of 155 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: Giza right it was under his reign yeah, and it's 156 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: an interesting thing that it was his father's Nephrew, the 157 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: first king of the fourth dynasty, who went through all 158 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: the trial and error of creating these pyramids. He built 159 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: three pyramids that, if you put them together, would exceed 160 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: the Great Pyramid of Giza in volume and probably in 161 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: height as well. And how long did it take to 162 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: build them. It's not exactly clear because you don't know 163 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: exactly when these kings came to the throne or you know, 164 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: you're dealing with what's the last reign date that you 165 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: have for a particular king. But it seems like it 166 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: took about twenty five some years to build one of 167 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: these things, and that a stone was placed every two minutes. Remember, 168 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: Weegyptologists still do not know how these pyramids were built, 169 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: and as I say in the book, that's exactly the 170 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: way the Egyptians want to keep it. We suspect they 171 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: had great technology or extraterrestrial help. We've talked about that 172 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: on the program before. It's an amazing possibility, isn't it. Well, 173 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: you know I have to speak against this because the 174 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial help. What I would say is that the ancient 175 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: Egyptians are building a weapon of stone, and they want 176 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: you to think that this fifty story mountain of stone 177 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: is superhuman, beyond human, something that humans couldn't possibly have done. 178 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: And as soon as we fall into that propagandistic trap, 179 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: we're exactly where the kings want us to be. As 180 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: soon as we think that it can't have been built 181 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: by human hands, then the king who built it becomes 182 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: superhuman in our eyes, and that propaganda is still working 183 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: on our human minds today. It is a veritable weapon 184 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: of stone, and just because we don't know exactly how 185 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: it was built doesn't mean that it can't have been 186 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: built with human technologies. It means that they're in the 187 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: same way that we don't release our hydrogen bomb blueprints 188 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: to the world, the ancient Egyptians weren't releasing their pyramid 189 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: blueprints to us and to everyone else because they want 190 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: it to be a miracle. And it still works, still 191 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: works very well. Listen to more Coast to Coast AM 192 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: every weeknight at one am Eastern and go to Coast 193 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: to Coast am dot com for more