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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson more like Thomas.

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Speaker 3: Jerk jerk jerk made sons that.

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Speaker 1: Come on, I don't what are we doing?

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Speaker 2: What are we doing here? Tried?

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Speaker 3: You know, likes Anderson? How about the mass?

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Speaker 2: And there you go.

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Speaker 3: He apologize, the queen apologize, and I'm getting a very

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Speaker 3: dirty look.

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Speaker 2: This is this, This is like.

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Speaker 3: Hold up, caught a stray over there? I apologize.

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Speaker 2: This is like when when two climbers trying to do

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Speaker 2: like Killimanjaro, but is a surprise storm apologize like because

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Speaker 2: because what we do, I would say, is like the

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Speaker 2: emotional equivalent of climbing kill him and Jarro, which I

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Speaker 2: assume is one of the hard mountains.

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Speaker 3: I don't know much exactly the same.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it's difficult. You know what else

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Speaker 2: is difficult?

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Speaker 3: Prop what else is difficult?

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Speaker 2: Talking about the life and many moral compromises of Thomas Jefferson.

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Speaker 3: And we're gonna do it four hours several.

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Speaker 2: More hours to go. Yes, I hope you're feeling nice

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Speaker 2: and rested after our first two parts, because we are

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Speaker 2: getting into well, I guess we already got into the

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Speaker 2: meat of it. We're getting into more of the meat

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Speaker 2: of it. It's like like an RB's sandwich. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of meat. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Did you have a nice birthday?

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Speaker 2: Prop?

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Speaker 3: I did? It was fun. I went fly fishing for

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Speaker 3: a little bit. Then I came home and I wrapped

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Speaker 3: at the La County Fair. Oh cool. Which they're now

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Speaker 3: like they're curating the stage a little better. So it's

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Speaker 3: like usually if you're not like War or Steely Dan,

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Speaker 3: it's like it's not worth your time, like to perform

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Speaker 3: at the fair. Yeah, but now like you're usually you're

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Speaker 3: going after like a Journey cover band, But now like

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Speaker 3: they're curating the stages better. So this was like a

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Speaker 3: hip hop stage next best La And that was dope.

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Speaker 1: Man.

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Speaker 2: It is something every man has to ask himself at

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Speaker 2: some point. Are you more of a Journey cover band

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Speaker 2: or are you more of a Steely Dan cover band?

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Speaker 3: Man? I think I think I'm a Steely Dan guy.

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Speaker 2: I'm Journey. I've known that about myself for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm neither.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah that makes sense, Sophie, I wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Feel like you could do a really good rendition of

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Speaker 2: Come sail Away by Sticks.

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Speaker 3: I'd do a War, You'd you'd be a fun Telly

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Speaker 3: cover band. Okay, okay, I could see you do I

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Speaker 3: could see you in a George Clinton band like yeah,

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Speaker 3: in the base maybe, and.

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Speaker 2: I could see you in the mov PCU like George Clinton.

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Speaker 4: I can't do any of these performance I have no talent,

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Speaker 4: so I can't do any of these things.

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Speaker 2: Being a boss, Jeremy, he was, Okay, you're right, Sorry,

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Speaker 2: we should stop. I shouldn't make my twelfth reference to

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Speaker 2: that movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't, don't do it.

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Speaker 2: So that's the cold open. We'll come back in a

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Speaker 2: second with some Thomas Jefferson for you, and we're back prop.

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Speaker 2: You would have guessed how many kids Martha Jefferson had

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Speaker 2: during the first ten years of her marriage to Thomas.

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Speaker 3: How many kids Martha Jefferson? I wish I knew this. Ten?

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Speaker 2: No, No, six, six, That's still that's still a lot

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Speaker 2: of kids.

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Speaker 3: For Test's still a gang of kids, dude. After now,

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Speaker 3: I've obviously I've never given birth to a child, but

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Speaker 3: I watched it once and if I were a female,

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Speaker 3: I would be like, yeah, never get yeah, never akin,

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Speaker 3: Am I going to do that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't feel like I would want to, and

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Speaker 2: I especially wouldn't want to if I had the kind

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Speaker 2: of track record Martha has, cause you want to I

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Speaker 2: want you to guess how many of those six kids

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Speaker 2: do you think made it to adulthood?

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, five, two, two.

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Speaker 2: They didn't do great. This is a difficult time to

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Speaker 2: have kids. But that's not a good race. Six kids

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Speaker 2: two out of six is not good, man. And it's

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Speaker 2: some of this is I think Martha. Martha has from

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Speaker 2: what we can tell, difficult pregnancies, like and this is

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Speaker 2: going to do a lot of permanent damage to her,

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Speaker 2: right she.

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Speaker 3: Just had Obviously, you know we've we've said this many times.

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Speaker 3: You're considering the state of like, let's sit racism aside

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Speaker 3: for a second, but considering just the state of medicine,

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Speaker 3: there's no other air i'd want to live in.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no thank you, But there's some like sorry,

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Speaker 3: I'll pass. I'm just yeah, I'm like, okay, uh, you

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Speaker 3: got to cut on your arm. We just have to

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Speaker 3: chop it off. And there's this, here's some whiskey and

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Speaker 3: a stick to bite down on. Nah, I'm good, No,

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Speaker 3: I'm good.

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Speaker 1: From that narrative, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Would give up modern medicine for one thing, and it's

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Speaker 2: if they could send me back far enough to see dinosaurs.

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Speaker 2: I would give up most things for dinosaurs, Like even

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Speaker 2: if they immediately come after me and eat me, Like

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Speaker 2: I mean, I feel thirty seconds would be worth it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, your thirty seconds would be worth it because whatever

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Speaker 3: ancient mosquito that bites you immediately, right, it's.

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Speaker 2: Like yes, super super yellow fever. Yeah, yeah, your malaria

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Speaker 2: gets malaria, yeah immediately. Oh yeah, just just ruined. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: the Jeffersons, I don't know if I want to say,

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Speaker 2: like give him too much shit for this ratio. I

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Speaker 2: kind of a get we get so little from Martha

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Speaker 2: in part because Thomas destroys a lot of her correspondence

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Speaker 2: after she dies. So maybe she was super as much

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Speaker 2: into having kids as he is. It's kind of hard

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Speaker 2: for me not to look at how he treated the

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Speaker 2: people he owned and the fact that Martha was basically

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Speaker 2: pushed into having so many kids until her body gave out,

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Speaker 2: and like, yeah, kind of drawing a line between those

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Speaker 2: two maybe wow, But maybe that's not fair because we

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Speaker 2: just don't know anything about what she really felt on

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Speaker 2: the matter. Yeah, you know, sure, as a result of

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Speaker 2: you know the fact that Martha's in ill health this

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Speaker 2: whole time, the whole time that they're married and trying

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Speaker 2: to have kids. But Jefferson's engaged in an activity that

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Speaker 2: was very common for American slave owners, and in fact

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Speaker 2: very common for rich people using like not enslave, but

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Speaker 2: like peasants and stuff over in Europe too, which is

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Speaker 2: having a wet nurse. Right in their case, the wet

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Speaker 2: nurse was Ursula, who's again, you know, one of the

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Speaker 2: people that Thomas owns, and she is the wet nurse

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Speaker 2: for basically the entirety of the time that Thomas has

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Speaker 2: kids and grandkids. Ursula is almost as much of an

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Speaker 2: unknown as Martha, or is actually more of an unknown

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Speaker 2: even than Martha, because we do get a little bit

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Speaker 2: from Martha, but we can assume from the facts that

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Speaker 2: she was almost super humanly tough. She nursed for base

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Speaker 2: twenty five years straight, both je kids and his grandkids.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot sheesh, Yeah, that's that's a lot of nursing.

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Speaker 3: That's a lot of milk. Her poor boobs, got it?

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Speaker 3: Ya know?

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Speaker 1: It hurts to hear that, Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 3: You're just in and I still don't understand how you

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Speaker 3: can I mean, I don't. I don't know how how

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Speaker 3: a person can laxate when it's not their child. I

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Speaker 3: know it's a normal thing, but like idea, Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: just there's there's parts of science and me me being

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Speaker 3: a girl dad with like a wife and two daughters.

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Speaker 3: I'm still there are still parts of Therefore, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: I'm one of those basic men where it's like I

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Speaker 3: feel like I'm pretty progressive, but there are certain things

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Speaker 3: that I'm just like, aw, that's a mystery. I don't

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Speaker 3: know how you do that magic.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how like emotionally because it's it's it

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Speaker 2: seems like it's such a head fuck, right, yeah, you

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Speaker 2: really you can't even like these are the kids of

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Speaker 2: the people who own you. You can't nurse a baby

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Speaker 2: and not develop a connection to the baby. Like it's

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Speaker 2: just it's a baby. You're nursing it. That's like what

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Speaker 2: people do.

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Speaker 3: An incredibly intimate moment, yeah, of bonding, which is like

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Speaker 3: why we the humans do it? You like you bond

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Speaker 3: you know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it just feels like almost unavoidable. And Thomas

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Speaker 2: has a habit of crediting in his writing Ursula's milk

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Speaker 2: with almost supernatural power writing that when one of his

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Speaker 2: children was sick, a quote a good breast of her

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Speaker 2: milk would heal them almost instantaneously. That's how he writes

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Speaker 2: about the quantity a.

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Speaker 3: Good breast.

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Speaker 2: Of breasts. Yeah, wow, yeah, one a unit of breast.

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Speaker 2: I get. Yeah, I don't know, it's weird. Seems like

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Speaker 2: a weird way to write it, but I don't actually

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Speaker 2: know how else you'd write it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Is he trying to be poetic?

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Speaker 2: I think he usually is. Yeah, in this case it

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Speaker 2: comes across off putt it doesn't y y.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it's one of those things, like, you know, we

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Speaker 2: have to keep a couple again, of kind of complex

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Speaker 2: things here, which is that this is on Jefferson's part,

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously a system based on violence. On Ursula's part,

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Speaker 2: this is also like her family, and that might be

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Speaker 2: how she, at least from what little we know about her,

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Speaker 2: that may very well be kind of how she felt

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Speaker 2: about these kids that she's nursing. Yeah, and again kind

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Speaker 2: of saying that I'm not saying that like Jefferson was

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Speaker 2: a good slave master because that didn't exist, or that like, well,

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Speaker 2: this was one of the good places to be in.

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Speaker 2: But if you're nursing two generations of babies, you probably

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Speaker 2: feel something for those kids, And that seems to be

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Speaker 2: the case. And one of the reasons I like Henry

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Speaker 2: Winseck's book Master of the Mountain is that he reflects

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Speaker 2: on the complex dimensions of this relationship with a line

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Speaker 2: that I think is really useful to parsing out what's

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Speaker 2: going on here on a moral level. Quote asked to

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Speaker 2: reminisce about Jefferson, several summoned up warm memories of their master.

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Speaker 2: On the other side of the divide. However, Jefferson left

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Speaker 2: no intimate account of the Monticello slaves. In other words,

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Speaker 2: members of the Hymmings, Granger Evans families expressed affection for

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Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson relied utterly on these people for the

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Speaker 2: health and safety of his family, and, based on the

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Speaker 2: writing We left Behind, never gave them a second thought.

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Speaker 2: Beyond that, there's no real evidence he thought of them

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Speaker 2: as people. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Function, They were able to see him as a person,

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Speaker 3: which I think is interesting. Yeah, yeah, complete function. Transaction

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Speaker 3: in the way that you would take care of your car,

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Speaker 3: right right, the way Cato thought of slaves, Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Man still hung up on like the mother part of this,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, because again, like my organizing premise is that

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Speaker 3: people are just the same. As long as the time changes,

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Speaker 3: it's still the same. So like, is it vanity for

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Speaker 3: you're a woman to be like I'm not gonna nurse

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Speaker 3: my own child because I want to keep being a

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Speaker 3: part of like the social life. Is this like is

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Speaker 3: my baby like a is it like an accessory? You

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Speaker 3: know what I'm saying. So like I caught them out

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Speaker 3: to impress the other girls, but far be it for

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Speaker 3: me to let my figure look weird now, Like, so

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Speaker 3: I don't want my boobs to sag? Or is it

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Speaker 3: like are you jealous? Is it a sign of status

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Speaker 3: that someone else's nursing your child? Like, I just I

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Speaker 3: want to know so much more about like what's the

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Speaker 3: mindset on that, which, of course is like.

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Speaker 4: It's actually like super com it's not super uncommon even

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Speaker 4: in today's day and age.

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Speaker 3: So no, that's why I was like, it's got to

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Speaker 3: be I'm like, it's got to be a thing because

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Speaker 3: clearly we still do it now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of times it's health based.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think everything that you said, all of the

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Speaker 2: different reasons are reasons why people in the past and

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Speaker 2: probably the sumach sent today have had nurse maids, especially

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Speaker 2: when you're talking about like we are talking about enslaved

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Speaker 2: people being used as nurse maids here, but like in Czarist,

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Speaker 2: you have people who are not slaves, they're not really

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Speaker 2: fully free, and they're used as nursemates by like the

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Speaker 2: wealthy families, the czar and stuff. And sometimes it is

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Speaker 2: it like, well, I don't want to be doing that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to take this onto my body.

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Speaker 2: I don't have time but a lot. I think with

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Speaker 2: Jefferson in particular, and with with Martha Jefferson, it's that

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Speaker 2: she's just not well, she's not yeah, and they're they

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Speaker 2: think that this will help make the children more because

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Speaker 2: the kids are also not healthy.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because they keep dying and they keep they

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Speaker 3: keep things. Okay, yeah, obviously, like the health stuff is

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Speaker 3: like I mean, every woman can't like to it like that.

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Speaker 3: It is what it is, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: So I totally understand that. Please guys, don't come at

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Speaker 3: me like I know like you, I'm a dad. I

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Speaker 3: know that, like everybody can't make milk, But it just

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Speaker 3: seemed like this was a strange, like yeah, the grankiest cuz,

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Speaker 3: like you know what I'm saying, Like you tell me

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Speaker 3: nobody in this family, you know. So that's why I

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Speaker 3: was like, what's going on?

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Speaker 2: You know? I wonder too if someone what's going on

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Speaker 2: with like ursula is Obviously, when you're a slave, you

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Speaker 2: are being constantly taken advantage of by all of the

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Speaker 2: people who own you, right, But these babies, even though

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Speaker 2: like they're their parents, obviously are taking advantage of you. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the babies, they're babies, right, Like they need milk, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so to a degree, maybe I understand like why

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Speaker 2: that would be that would make the whatever you have

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Speaker 2: connection you have to them like stand out more because

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Speaker 2: like it is this thing that needs you that is blameless.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know, can't get it. You know.

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Speaker 2: There's probably a million different ways people felt when they

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Speaker 2: were in this situation, and we'll never know because they

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Speaker 2: were denied the ability to like express themselves anyway. So

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Speaker 2: that's a bummer. And the eighteen nineties, du mas Malone

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Speaker 2: writes a six volume history of Thomas Jefferson. This is

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Speaker 2: generally considered to be like the first definitive biography of Jefferson.

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Speaker 2: It still gets cited quite a lot to the present

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Speaker 2: day because obviously the eighteen nineties you're probably not talking

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Speaker 2: to a lot of people who knew Thomas directly, but

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who's like parents knew Thomas you

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Speaker 2: can still talk to, right, So you do have a

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Speaker 2: lot closer access to a lot of those sources. And

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Speaker 2: obviously Dumas's book there's a lot of scholarly value to it.

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Speaker 2: But Dumas Malone also very much wants to pretend slavery

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Speaker 2: is not happening, right, or not that it's not happening,

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Speaker 2: but that it wasn't Jefferson was not a bad example

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Speaker 2: of a slave owner. Right. Part of how he does

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Speaker 2: this is he really emphasizes all of the things Jefferson

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Speaker 2: would say about how ugly slavery was, like this quote.

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Speaker 2: No one could find in his words any ground whatsoever

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Speaker 2: for the opinion that slavery in eighteenth century Virginia was

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Speaker 2: or would ever become a beneficent institution. He regarded it

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Speaker 2: as fundamentally cruel and was in no possible doubt that

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Speaker 2: it undermined the morals and destroyed the industry of the

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Speaker 2: masters while degrading the victims. So we see, even decades

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Speaker 2: after the Civil War, you've got this respected historian parroting

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Speaker 2: Jefferson's line. And we talked about this in the early episodes.

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Speaker 2: Jefferson would always be like, Yeah, slavery's bad because of

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Speaker 2: all of the bad things it does to white people.

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Speaker 2: It makes the masters lazy, and it makes them like

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Speaker 2: worse people.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: I find it interesting that Malone is carrying that forward

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Speaker 2: kind of and not really he doesn't do what a

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Speaker 2: historian should, which is examine what wine Seck is going

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Speaker 2: to do more than a century later, which is actually examined, well,

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Speaker 2: how did Jefferson actually behave in his life? Did he

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Speaker 2: act like a man who felt like it was unethical

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Speaker 2: to yet these people he owned do all of the

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Speaker 2: work for him, and he doesn't, you know. Yeah. Malone

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Speaker 2: goes on to quote another line from Notes on the

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Speaker 2: State of Virginia, which he describes as perhaps the most

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Speaker 2: erudent summary of the evil of slavery, and can the

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Speaker 2: liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have

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Speaker 2: removed their only firm basis a conviction in the minds

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Speaker 2: of the people that this liberties are of that these

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Speaker 2: liberties are of the gift of God, that they are

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Speaker 2: not to be violated but with his wrath. Indeed, I

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Speaker 2: tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just,

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Speaker 2: that his justice cannot sleep forever. That considering numbers nature

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Speaker 2: and natural means only a revolution of the wheel of

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Speaker 2: fortune and exchange of the situation is among possible events.

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Speaker 2: That it may become probable by a supernatural interference. The

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Speaker 2: Almighty has no attribute which can take a side with

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Speaker 2: us in such a contest.

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Speaker 3: That that's the quote, that's the one who that's the one? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: at least that I've been refercent where I'm just like, bro, yeah,

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Speaker 3: if if God is just, he's not on our side. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Like what like how you let that come about your mouth? Like, well,

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Speaker 3: I mean it's true, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: It's true, and it's it is good writing, like just yes,

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Speaker 2: structurally obviously as a piece of like craft, it's it's good,

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Speaker 2: except for I think you can't you can't view it

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Speaker 2: as craft in a vacuum. You have to look at

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Speaker 2: in part what he actually meant by this, And I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's often enough stated that what he's talking

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Speaker 2: about here is his belief that a race war is

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Speaker 2: inevitable if black and white people live too, true, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like that is what he's expressing, and that is something.

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Speaker 3: He believes, and and they and a genuine fear at

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Speaker 3: the time. Yeah, you know, it's like we can't like

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Speaker 3: at this point, you can't let them because they're just

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Speaker 3: gonna there's more of them, and they're going to destroy

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Speaker 3: us because we've been treating them terribly. Yeah, obviously this

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Speaker 3: is such a sensitive topic, especially with like being like

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Speaker 3: all eyes on Rafa, you know, and just a sentiment

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Speaker 3: that I would venture to say is might actually be

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Speaker 3: a motivating factor for how you know, obviously I'm not

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Speaker 3: at the table, but how like some of the people

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Speaker 3: in the government of Israel might be thinking too in that, Like,

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Speaker 3: you know, every we've covered it so many times, a

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Speaker 3: hood put politics, like every piece of research, every piece

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Speaker 3: of research is like, when you have state sanctioned violence

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Speaker 3: like this, you inevitably radicalize and create insurgencies. What you're

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Speaker 3: doing will do this. And and if you are trying

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Speaker 3: to eradicate every possible threat to your safety, it's genocide.

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Speaker 3: That's your only option. You gotta kill everybody, you know,

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Speaker 3: what I'm saying because someone's you can't you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean. So it's like, so I wonder if they're like, well, shit,

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Speaker 3: we can't stop now, like we went this far. Like

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Speaker 3: if they do, they're gonna wipe us out because we're wrong,

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Speaker 3: you know. So I just I wonder if that thinking

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Speaker 3: is like a part of it, a part of their

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Speaker 3: calculation right now, Well, I mean, what are we gonna do?

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Speaker 2: You know, I certainly, I'm sure, I certainly don't think

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about like net and Yahoo right that

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Speaker 2: I don't know that I think he's capable of thinking

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Speaker 2: that he's wrong on a moral level. And also, you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of this comes down to like beliefs about

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Speaker 2: religion and God, which totally further kind of derange some

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Speaker 2: of that. Yeah, Jefferson expresses accurately why slavery is evil

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Speaker 2: and expresses a fear that that evil will rebound upon

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Speaker 2: white people in America. Yeah, and then he doesn't do

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Speaker 2: anything to even make a better situation for the people

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Speaker 2: he owns, right, And that is contrary to how he

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Speaker 2: is depicted. Even in Ellis's book American Sphinx, they had

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Speaker 2: this long passage where he's like there was no such

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Speaker 2: thing as good slavery, Like it was bad and it

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00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 2: was hypocritical of Jefferson, But among people who owned people

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Speaker 2: in the Americas, he treated the people he owned better

379
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Speaker 2: than most. And the case that win Seck makes is

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Speaker 2: that like he really didn't. And this is going to

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Speaker 2: bring me prop to a thing that I did not

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Speaker 2: know about, which is Thomas Jefferson, slavery and smallpox. Yes, yes, okay,

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Speaker 2: so you're are you yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,

384
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Speaker 2: give it to. At the time of the Revolutionary War,

385
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Speaker 2: there existed a fairly effective inoculation against smallpox. Now by

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Speaker 2: modern standards, it was brutal and dangerous, like by the

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Speaker 2: by the standards of a modern vaccine. This is basically

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Speaker 2: cutting someone's skin and sticking like the scab from like

389
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Speaker 2: what's called like either from cowpox or another like smallpox

390
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Speaker 2: or whatever, like under their skin, and it kind of

391
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Speaker 2: where it works basically the way that a vaccine works.

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Speaker 2: Obviously it is one or two percent of people die

393
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Speaker 2: that you need.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an analog. It's an analog vaccine, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's an anally. That's a good, A

396
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,200
Speaker 2: good way to look at it. And it's it's pretty

397
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Speaker 2: unpleasant to receive, but it's also a one or so

398
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Speaker 2: percent chance of dying from this is wildly better than

399
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Speaker 2: your odds of just raw dogging smallpox. Right, Like, smallpox

400
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Speaker 2: is one of the worst things that human being never

401
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Speaker 2: in count vicious. So because if you are a slave owner,

402
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Speaker 2: the human beings you own are probably, if not most,

403
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Speaker 2: then at least a very significant chunk of your wealth,

404
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Speaker 2: a lot of slave owners chose to vaccinate the people

405
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Speaker 2: that they own right against smallpox, or inoculate, I think

406
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Speaker 2: is the more accurate term to use, and not because like,

407
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Speaker 2: you know, we're great people, but because like, this is

408
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Speaker 2: a sensible way to protect assets.

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Speaker 3: You know.

410
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Speaker 2: Yes, one of the slave owners who chose to vaccinate

411
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Speaker 2: the people he owned was George Washington. Now I don't

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Speaker 2: say that to like be like, look at all wonderful

413
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Speaker 2: George Washington hanging out vaccines. I say that to contrast

414
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Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson, who refused to take the same preventative action

415
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Speaker 2: for the people that he owned, even though he could have,

416
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Speaker 2: and he was not. This is not because you, I think,

417
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 2: could be not for like being a slaver, but you

418
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Speaker 2: could be forgiven for not like vaccinating your kids in

419
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Speaker 2: this era if you didn't have access to information about

420
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Speaker 2: how much better it really was, and it's information is

421
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Speaker 2: harder to come by than good information. On Thomas Jefferson

422
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Speaker 2: as president is at one of me. I think the

423
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Speaker 2: first president who's like a vocal advocate for smallpox inoculations, right,

424
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Speaker 2: he is like really really insistent upon this. He himself

425
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Speaker 2: was inoculated at age twenty three, so he knew that

426
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Speaker 2: this worked, which suggests that he did not fail to

427
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Speaker 2: vaccinate his slaves out of ignorance. We don't know why

428
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 2: he didn't either. I think it comes down to either

429
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Speaker 2: just like laziness, like he just didn't get around to it,

430
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Speaker 2: or he was too cheap to do it right, And

431
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Speaker 2: I don't really know what which it was. Right, there's

432
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Speaker 2: a darker possibility, which is that he may have done

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Speaker 2: it because he thought it would make the people he

434
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 2: owned less likely to flee, right, because if they run away,

435
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 2: they're more likely to encounter smallpox. And maybe if they

436
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 2: know that they don't have any sort of defense against it,

437
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 2: it'll make them And that's relevant because of what happens

438
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 2: during the Revolutionary War. So as is always the case,

439
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 2: whenever anyone went anywhere back then, in large numbers. British

440
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 2: soldiers who like came to North America to fight in

441
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 2: the Revolutionary War brought smallpox with them and spread it

442
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: like wildfire everywhere they went. There is evidence that they

443
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: had done so purposefully in the French and Indian Wars

444
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 2: as part of like is essentially part of smallpox blankets, right, Yeah,

445
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: significant evidence there. So during the Revolutionary War, Virginia's royal

446
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 2: governor promised freedom to slaves who would leave their masters

447
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: and fight for the king, and the British army provided

448
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 2: shelter to run away families of slaves. Jefferson would later

449
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: claim that thirty thousand slaves tried to take the British

450
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: up on this offer, and twenty seven thousand of them

451
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 2: died of smallpox. Now that's a hideous number. Prop Do

452
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: you want to guess where Thomas Jefferson came up with

453
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: that number?

454
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 3: Where you come up with the number.

455
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 2: He made it up. He just made it out.

456
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 3: I was like, there's no as he was as you

457
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 3: were talking, I was like, how would you get that data?

458
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: Like just lie?

459
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 3: I was like a census where they taken Like, there's

460
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 3: no census on this. Bro. Yeah, I was totally thinking.

461
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 3: I was like, unless I'm wrong, that's funny.

462
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 2: No.

463
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 3: It was also I also wonder if there's this if

464
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 3: if you know, the whole eugenics, the eugenics of it

465
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 3: all plays plays a role in just believing Africans are stronger,

466
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: and just you know what I'm saying, it's like, well

467
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: it doesn't affect them.

468
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: The way, maybe they won't. Yeah, yeah, I think that that.

469
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 2: That's probably a number of things that feed into it.

470
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 2: But this is like like when I was a kid

471
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: and Wikipedia was new, I would just edit Wikipedia articles

472
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: to win arguments with my friends, and I think that's

473
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: kind of what Thomas Jefferson is.

474
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 1: Bro.

475
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 3: No, listen, I'm looking at it. It was like thirty thousand.

476
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, like word. Trying to figure out where this number

477
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 2: came from, historian Cassandra Pybus went through the original sources

478
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: and found that Jefferson had written that thirty of his

479
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: own enslaved workers fled during the revolution and twenty seven

480
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: of them died of smallpox. Right, Thus, he just did

481
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 2: ten thousand, That's literally what he did. Yeah, as far

482
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: as he can tell, he was like, yeah, probably about

483
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: one hundred times that many people or whatever.

484
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 3: Why not.

485
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 2: Very I mean, it's just such a like slap dash.

486
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: He gets such a reputation as being like the most

487
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: the greatest political genius in American history, and like he

488
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 2: certainly wasn't that he had his areas of intelligence, but

489
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: like that's just such lazy work.

490
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 3: Nah, bro, you're a regular dude, like all of us

491
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 3: do that like nine years last night, you know you didn't.

492
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So the actual evidence based estimate is that

493
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 2: about five thousand enslaved people in Virginia and Maryland fled

494
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 2: to the British lines, and a huge number of these

495
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: people did die of smallpox, but the blame for that

496
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: should go to owners like Jefferson, who had neglected to

497
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 2: inoculate them. The British army. This is weird because this

498
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: episode they're kind of some of the good guys. Normally

499
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 2: I would not call them a particularly ethical force, but

500
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 2: they attempted to mitigate this right and save these enslaved people.

501
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: They inoculated runaway slaves as soon as they arrived in camp,

502
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: but the disease was just spreading too quickly. They did

503
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: not have enough doctors to actually do this right. Yeah,

504
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: like they did try from what I From what I've read,

505
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: it seems like they tried pretty hard to avoid to

506
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 2: save as many people as possible. It was just kind

507
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 2: of beyond their capability, right, which is fair given like

508
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: the realities of above smallpox and the realities of smallpox. Sure.

509
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: In his farm book, Jefferson holdly recorded the losses, writing quote,

510
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: joined the enemy and died next to the names of

511
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: two girls, Flora and Quomina, who were eight and six

512
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 2: years old. God again, he writes that as if like

513
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: it's like a free adult who has made the decision

514
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: to become a traitor. Right, this is talking about even

515
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 2: joined the enemy.

516
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 3: Hoping none of us look at the age.

517
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, these kids together are fourteen years old. Like, come on, man,

518
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna lay out the story of these two girls,

519
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: but I want you to keep that very cold description

520
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: about the deaths of two children in mind and compare

521
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 2: that to this passage from Dumas Malone's biography Jefferson and

522
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 2: his Time, written in eighteen ninety two. Quote, At Monticello,

523
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 2: domestic servants were abundant, and a number of the favorites

524
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: came into his possession through her ursula. The fat woman

525
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: who nursed Patsy and later children, and her husband, King

526
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: George had been acquired for Missus Jefferson. Well. The noted

527
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: Hemming's family, who were mostly bright Mulattoes, came through the

528
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: Wales estate. Jefferson was kind to his servants to the

529
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: point of indulgence, and within the framework of an institution

530
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 2: he disliked. He saw that they were well provided for.

531
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: Seems like well provided for would include an inoculation from

532
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: small parties.

533
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like a little bellies is fool, that's

534
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: what you're saying.

535
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he closes with the lion. His people were

536
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: devoted to him and they made his home life comfortable

537
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 2: and jolly. I don't know, man, the six and eight

538
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: year old but died didn't seem jolly. Yeah. Yeah.

539
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: Demoted to you, bro like this words, doing a lot

540
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: of work, buddy, Yeah, become a devoted Okay.

541
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: Flora and Quomina fled with their ten year old brother

542
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: Jimmy and their mother sal. Earlier, we talked about Jefferson's

543
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: household slaves like Ursula and George, who expressed affection and

544
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 2: acted with loyalty towards Jefferson. These were members of the

545
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: families that Jefferson kept close. Some of them were literally

546
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: his cousins and brothers and sisters in law, but Sally

547
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: and her family lived further down the mountain doing menial work.

548
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 2: Jefferson records Sal as a quote laborer in the ground.

549
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: Now to speak about the British Empire again, you know,

550
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 2: prop and we've talked about this on the show. When

551
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: the British Empire would take a place right, like India, right,

552
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: they would find a group of people to be like

553
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 2: the term used is like warrior people right there. This

554
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: is the tribe or the community or whatever that we

555
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: recruit soldiers from to help us police the and they

556
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: get extra privileges. And part of obviously the most obvious

557
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 2: way that this helps a colonizing entity is that it

558
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: gives you soldiers, right. But the other way it helps

559
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: is that it creates division within the community you're ruling,

560
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: and people will be angry at the warrior race, right,

561
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: you know, as opposed to being as angry it focused

562
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: on you. Jefferson does that at Monticello right between He

563
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: deliberately kind of sets up conflict between these laborers in

564
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: the ground and the people who are working in the house.

565
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: So the people who are allowed to like learn a

566
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: trade and become something like a blacksmith, right where you're

567
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: able to make some money for yourself and you have

568
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: a degree of independence. That conflict is a part of

569
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 2: what he is kind of he's very deliberately stoking because

570
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: it makes it easier for him to control people, right.

571
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: And persist to this day. Yeah, yeah, yeah among the

572
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: black community for sure. Yeah, we've gotten a lot wiser,

573
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: but it definitely persists to this day.

574
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: And it you know, there was possibly violence as a

575
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: result of this. One of the kind of I don't

576
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: want to get too much into it because it just

577
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: the the actual evidence on this is unclear, but Ursula

578
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: and a number of the people he owned who were

579
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: like close to the Jefferson family, who like in the house,

580
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 2: died all at the same time. This is a lot

581
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: later in life, is after I think after his presidency. Yeah,

582
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: and there were there were kind of suspicion at the

583
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: time that they might have been poisoned, and it's possible

584
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: that it was like kind of as a result of

585
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 2: a conflict between the different sort of communities of people

586
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: at Monticello. Yeah. I don't think we'll ever really know.

587
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: But that sort of thing happens elsewhere, right, Like we

588
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: have like it's not impossible that like he kind of

589
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: incited something that led to a lot of people, including

590
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: like the woman who nursed his children getting murdered. Yeah,

591
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: you know, unclear as to what actually went down. Some

592
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: of this is like it's just so long ago and

593
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: so little of this was documented. We'll never know. And

594
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: they didn't have the ability to like do blood tests

595
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: and stuff for poison, you know, yeah, it being the

596
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: seventeen hundreds or eighteen hundreds, yeah, and all that stuff.

597
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: So Flora and Quomina died of smallpox in the British

598
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: Army camp. Jimmy and sal returned to Monticello, I think,

599
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: frightened by how much smallpox there was in the British camp,

600
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: and then they died at Monticello. Shortly thereafter. Another family

601
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: of laborers in the ground, Hannibal and his wife Pat

602
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 2: fled with their six small children, all of whom of smallpox.

603
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: And I again, I'm not used to writing about the

604
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: British Army as like good guys here. Yeah, but that

605
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: is kind of what we're building to. But you know,

606
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:10,959
Speaker 2: who are good guys?

607
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: No, I don't, please tell me who is.

608
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:25,479
Speaker 2: The products services. Oh we'll be back in a minute, folks. Okay,

609
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: we're back. So I want to talk about the British

610
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: Army here prop because I didn't know this history. It

611
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: kind of makes me surprised at the humanity shown by

612
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: the literal British Army that the Americans do not show here.

613
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, the place that colonized eighty percent of the world,

614
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 3: right there to show some humanity Okay.

615
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, a surprising amount here, because when the Revolutionary War ended,

616
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: the victorious Americans wanted the slaves that had fled and

617
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: were currently living with the British army back, right. That

618
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 2: was a demand that was made British diplomats. Obviously, British

619
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: diplomats didn't give a shit about these people, so they're like, yeah, sure,

620
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: you can have them back. That seems like an easy

621
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: thing we can give you as we sure, Yeah, who cares.

622
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: If we want to be different? Yeah, right when I

623
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 3: get it.

624
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, But the British generals, the field commanders were like, no, no, no,

625
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: we promised these people freedom as a matter of our

626
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: personal honor. You don't get to give them back. Wow,

627
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: we made them a promise, and I think this is

628
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: the largest act of emancipation prior to the Civil War

629
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: because these British commanders ignore their diplomats and take eight

630
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: to ten thousand black Americans away by boat and they

631
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: are freed.

632
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: Wild.

633
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: You have to be pretty evil for the British Army

634
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: and the seventeen hundreds to be the good guys. Yeah, anyway,

635
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: I don't know, kudos to those British commanders.

636
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's even an interesting thing to where they're

637
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 3: like they're honor code. They're like, dude, we gave our word. Yeah,

638
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 3: like we made a promise. Yeah, we made a promise.

639
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 3: And it's like whether however they feel about probably, you know,

640
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 3: the humanity of it all and seeing like these people

641
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: is like one thing, but then it's like the other

642
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 3: thing of like, well we're no, we're like, we're members

643
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: of the Royal Army. We have a certain amount of

644
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 3: dignity and honor in our word means something, so like

645
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 3: we gave them our word and also fuck y'all.

646
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so fuck y'all. That probably wasn't none of it.

647
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, like man, fuck you like no, you know, yeah.

648
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. In seventeen eighty two, Martha Jefferson died. We

649
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: don't know what killed her. It seems to be one

650
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: of those deals where you know she's not healthy, she

651
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: has a lot of difficult pregnancies. Her body just kind

652
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: of gives out on her thing man. Yeah, Yeah, it

653
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: seems like she had kind of a rough life. Jefferson again,

654
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: I think he destroys the correspondence that he and Martha

655
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: had had earlier in their relationship. There's a you get

656
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: the feeling he wanted to obscure a lot of this

657
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: as much as possible of Martha's personality and who she

658
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 2: was from the eyes of history. I don't know why.

659
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: I guess it's possible and maybe even probably likely that

660
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: it was just he was devastated by this and he

661
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: couldn't bear having them around. It may just literally be

662
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: a human moment for him where he just like couldn't

663
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: he couldn't take having those those letters exist. I don't

664
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: know his friends at the time, do right that he

665
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 2: was unusually devastated by which I mean people like Edmund

666
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: Randolph wrote stuff like this in a letter to James Manison.

667
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: I never thought him to rank domestic happiness in the

668
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: first class of the chief. Good, But I scarcely supposed

669
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: that his grief would be so violent as to justify

670
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: the circulating report of his swooning away whenever he sees

671
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: his children. So that's like the claim that he makes

672
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: is that, like Jefferson's like can't even be around his

673
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: kids without passing out. He's so so stricken by grief.

674
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 2: So that may that may honestly explain enough of like

675
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 2: why he Obvio destroyed their letters and stuff. He just

676
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: he may have just been really shabow. Yeah, yeah, he's

677
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 2: still a person, right, It's sad. In seventeen eighty five,

678
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: our boy TJ was sent to France to act as

679
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: basically ambassador. They use a different term back then than ambassador,

680
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 2: but he was an ambassador, right, his actually attache. Yeah,

681
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: something like that.

682
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 3: It's a fun word.

683
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it. I like the word act.

684
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 3: I want.

685
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 2: I hope to be an attache at some point someday. Yeah,

686
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: I'll do it in France, you know, fuck it, I

687
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 2: think I could represent this country. His actual day job

688
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: was negotiating various treaties, but he spent most of his

689
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 2: time bullshitting with French intellectuals and radicals and watching the

690
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 2: precursors to the French Revolution wind their way into being right.

691
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: So he is. He is a famous and highly sought

692
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 2: after dinner guest, and like the father of liberty is

693
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: how a lot of people see him when I talk

694
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 2: to him, Except he's also he owns a bunch of people, right,

695
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: Like the same year he moves to France to do

696
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: the job, he sells thirty one slaves to appease his creditors,

697
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: right to deal with the interest on the debts that

698
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 2: he has. Oh wow, Yeah, the end of the war

699
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: had come with a resumption of interest payments and the

700
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: expectation that indebted planters like Thomas Jefferson would make good

701
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: on their obligations because most of them, including Thomas and Thomas,

702
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: most of these Virginia planters who owe money owe it

703
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: to British people, right to like banks and other creditors

704
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 2: over there. He is, you know, infuriated by the fact

705
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 2: that as part of negotiating it into the war, his

706
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: debts have come due again, because he's come to understand

707
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 2: by the time he's in Paris that a mixture of

708
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 2: his own debts and his father in law's debts and

709
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 2: the brutal realities of the interest rates both had agreed

710
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: to meant that he couldn't really escape the situation he

711
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 2: was in right, like he was never going to be

712
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, a lot of people have student

713
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,479
Speaker 2: loan situations right like this, right where it doesn't matter.

714
00:36:58,520 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 2: I will never be.

715
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 3: Able to chain this.

716
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, this is like one of the most important

717
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: things for understanding him as a thinker, because he is

718
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 2: number one, He's he's hugely against the idea of inherited debt.

719
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 2: This is like a major part of like what he's

720
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: going to advocate for in politics. And just this, the

721
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: mix of shame and desperation is like a major factor

722
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 2: in shaping the man that he is because he always

723
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: has this this kind of like it's like a fucking wolf,

724
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: like always chasing him right gnawing at his back. And

725
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: this is part of what's going to shape his attitude

726
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 2: towards slavery and Jefferson's feelings here come from a series

727
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: of complex things. He is a believer that the American

728
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: struggle for independence, our revolution was the start of an

729
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: inevitable wave of liberty that was destined to sweep the globe.

730
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: If you read about how the guys like you know,

731
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 2: Marks in eighteen forty eight and the people after him

732
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 2: talk about the inevitable socialist world revolution that's coming. Thomas

733
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: talks a lot like that. You know, he's not a socialist,

734
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 2: but he's talking about like liberty as he conceives it,

735
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: and he sees that, like well, it's going to come,

736
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: probably in France next, but it's destined to sweep the

737
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 2: world and the only things standing in the way of

738
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 2: liberty are the British, who are an inherently counter revolutionary force.

739
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: And he has this belief that, like, well, because the

740
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: British are inherently opposed to human freedom, they're doomed. The

741
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 2: empire is inevitably on its way to collapse. It's past

742
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 2: its height, it's falling apart. Now, that was not accurate,

743
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: right at all. No, the British Empire doesn't reach its

744
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: height for more than a century after this point, right,

745
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: Like it does quite well for a while. Yeah, And

746
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: it's also like you, no one would call the British

747
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: Empire a force for human liberty, but they did ban

748
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: slavery decades before the United.

749
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 5: States, much earlier, day, earlier, much earlier, and I would

750
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 5: call that a meaningful ass if you're thinking about like

751
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 5: liberty is a global cause, that's a mean thing.

752
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: It's more meaning. Jefferson does after this point.

753
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty big, man, like that that's that's a

754
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 3: that's a that's that's a. Yeah, that's a that's in

755
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 3: the W line. Man, I gotta tell you, bro, that's

756
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: in the W line. Yeah.

757
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: You can and should point out that the British still

758
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: made use of situations that were not all that different

759
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 2: from slavery, and even still did profit from slavery in

760
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 2: some ways and the periphery of the empire. But like

761
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: they still this is still a major step that they

762
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: take well before the US does.

763
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were doing prison reform earlier too. Yeah, looking

764
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 3: at like how to make our prison a little better?

765
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: Like at least can we them at least it.

766
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jefferson is kind of racist against the British, so

767
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 2: he can only see them as like this inherent counter

768
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: revolutionary force with realities like well, actually the things that

769
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 2: pe like British people within the British Empire are major

770
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 2: parts of this swing towards greater human liberty and respect

771
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 2: for like the autonomy of man. They play it, their role,

772
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: they also play their role in trying to quash it.

773
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: You know, it's accomplishing.

774
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 3: Everybody else, Yeah, just like everybody else. I wonder, like,

775
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: I think it's an interesting moment in time too that like,

776
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: actually I never thought about it to you said it

777
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 3: that like, by luck of the draw, you get to

778
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 3: be born in an era where there are sweeping international

779
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 3: changes or revolutions that are happening, like when you if

780
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 3: you just happen to be in one of those moments

781
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: like an industrial revolution, like a you know, or like

782
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 3: you said, like this idea of like, you know this

783
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 3: for for us, it would be like at least for

784
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 3: a black person, it would be like being around in

785
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 3: the sixties and being like, this is international the world

786
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 3: is changing, you know type moment. And I never thought

787
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: about this time after the revolution and this concept of

788
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 3: being like yo, like it's democracy thing y'all, like trying

789
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 3: to tell you, homie, like this this whole this is different,

790
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 3: fam like you know, we don't King's homeboy, like it

791
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: was about to go crazy right now, like what it

792
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 3: you know again, barring what my personal experience would have

793
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 3: been at that time that moment in history, man, I

794
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 3: never thought of it as like, wow, it's kind of

795
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: like a moment, you know.

796
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a lot of people do. And there's like

797
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: good reason too, right, I mean, like the Haitian Revolution

798
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 2: also totally all that was happening, not that right, like yeah, yeah, yeah,

799
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: and we know how that ends. But at the time

800
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 2: it could have it would have looked to someone who

801
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: was like less not racist, you know, in the way

802
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 2: Jefferson was, you might have been like, look, really it

803
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: is like this wave is it's coming more seriously, this

804
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: is just the start of it, you know, exactly, at

805
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 2: least for a while. So you can see how someone

806
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 2: might have believed that as a representative of the new

807
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 2: nation of the United States and a slave owner, Jefferson

808
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: found himself regularly needing to defend his people and himself

809
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: while he was in France to all these kind of

810
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 2: like philosophers of liberty. These guys, a lot of whom

811
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: are going to become like politicians who are going to

812
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 2: have elected leaders in the Republic that's coming. A lot

813
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: of these guys see him as an advocate of the

814
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: cause of liberty, and they're confused because they're like, yeah,

815
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: we love what everything you say, and it's amazing that

816
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 2: you guys won your war. How do you own people?

817
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: How can you be this guy and own people? My boy?

818
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 2: But yeah, like.

819
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 3: Bars everything you say, yeah, bars, yeah, like yeah, help me, yeah,

820
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 3: help me figure this out.

821
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 2: And for a time, Jefferson is kind of able to

822
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 2: He kind of is able to bamboozle a lot of

823
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 2: these people by pure eloquence. He had first written out

824
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: an abolition plan, and that pamphlet his friends had published, right,

825
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 2: the kind of first thing that starts his political career,

826
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 2: proposing first that the slave trade be ended, and then

827
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 2: that the enfranchisement of the enslaved people already here carried

828
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: out gradually. Right, And part of this does happen. We

829
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: do ban the Atlantic slave trade, right.

830
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's first. He can bring no new ones.

831
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but we never there's never like that gradual.

832
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: There's never a graduate emancipation of the enslaved people here, right,

833
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: because he's kind of proposing basically, we like, I don't know,

834
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: draw lots or whatever and over you know, twenty years

835
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: or whatever, everyone gets freed. You know, that's kind of

836
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 2: the idea. You're let believe reading this.

837
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, you ramp down. It's like it's like the switch

838
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 3: to electric cars where it's like, yeah, you can't just

839
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 3: like you know, put every mechanic out of business. Today

840
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, we gotta you gotta like slow it down,

841
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 3: and you know, yeah, yeah is what he's saying.

842
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what he's saying. And obviously, like that's bad, right,

843
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: the idea that like you would you would feel the

844
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: need to not, you know, fuck over the slavers. But

845
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 2: it would have been if we'd done that, it would

846
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: have been better than what we did, which was nothing

847
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: until we had a war, right until we fought. Yes.

848
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: In Notes on the State of Virginia, as part of

849
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 2: this European charm offensive, Jefferson had laid out a more

850
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: detail plan for emancipation. So he writes this first plan

851
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: out kind of before he gets into Congress, and then

852
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: during the Revolutionary War, as he's trying to really make

853
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 2: sure that like these these French thinkers that he admires

854
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 2: so much and who are backing our war effort, stay

855
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: on his side, he lays out a different emancipation plan,

856
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: and it's a much colder one than the last one.

857
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: Under this plan, enslaved adults would stay that way forever,

858
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: their children would not and in fact, those children would

859
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: be taken away from their parents and put into some

860
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 2: sort of public training program that amounted to a crash

861
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 2: course in being a free person, and then, at age

862
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: twenty one or eighteen for women, they would be given guns, tools,

863
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,439
Speaker 2: a small amount of livestock, and be sent somewhere else, right,

864
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: And the idea is, we can't have them living among

865
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 2: us killers, but they can have a colony, you know,

866
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: and that'll.

867
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 3: Give you a gun and leave you here crazy. Yeah,

868
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 3: Like okay, say, look, man, that's just not smart.

869
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of I think like this thinking is

870
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: sort of what leads to liberia. Like Jefferson is kind

871
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 2: of the I don't know if he's the very first,

872
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: but he's one of the first, certainly the first guy.

873
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: The level of prominence he's at, who's kind of laying

874
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: out that sort of a yeah right yeah, and it's

875
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: god the level of evil in like, well, of course,

876
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: we can't free people who are already slaves, but we

877
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: will take their children away from them and have an

878
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: orphan colony.

879
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 3: Bro. Like, like, just say it again out loud, bro, Like,

880
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 3: just say it out loud to yourself again, Like word,

881
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 3: that's yeah for real?

882
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: Fam like, Yeah, I want you to sit alone at

883
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: the mirror and just look into your own eyes as

884
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 2: you say, I want to abduct the children of slaves

885
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: to make an allied colony.

886
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and that's and that's going to make them

887
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 3: be appreciative what you did for them, that's yeah. And

888
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 3: he's like, oh, absolutely, now we're sending him back to Africa.

889
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: No, they're gonna be fissed. Yeah, his attitude was more

890
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 2: like Kansas. I don't think he's saying Africa. Yeah. I

891
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 2: think he wanted you because he's colonizer right right, And

892
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: that's you know, in these Jefferson episodes, that is very

893
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: much part of like the bad things that he did,

894
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: his attitudes towards colonization and the Native Americans. This is

895
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: there's so much to say just about slavery. I didn't

896
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: really feel like I could, like I kind of wanted

897
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 2: to focus these episodes on that. I'm not leaving that

898
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: out because it's not important. It's just no, there's a

899
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 2: lot to say about Jefferson, you know.

900
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's he's a multi dimensional character that, like you know,

901
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 3: obviously when you at least from from my perspective, once

902
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 3: you add it all together. I'm like you, I mean,

903
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 3: you're still a ship bag.

904
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:36,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I'm.

905
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 3: Saying, Like, at the end of the day, you are.

906
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 3: But it's but it's a complex shit bag, you know

907
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: that that Like yeah, and.

908
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: He had he was in power for or he was

909
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: in you know, a political an active political figure for

910
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: more than forty years. So there's just you.

911
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 3: Can't to say, yeah, you can't shake your fist at that,

912
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: Like that's that's some real Where did I get that

913
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: phrase shake your fist that?

914
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't prize myself, you can't do all the

915
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 2: shaking of your fist that's necessary in four episodes right

916
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 2: where we're really just there's even stuff, there's a lot

917
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: plenty about Jefferson and slavery that we're leaving out. I

918
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 2: just didn't know how to fit at all. Besides like

919
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: his fourty five keys. Yeah, So Jefferson when he's talking

920
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: about you know, he has a lot of these like

921
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 2: salon meetings, these like long dinners with these different French intellectuals,

922
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: and his chief argument as to why it's just not

923
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 2: possible to do a general emancipation yet is that if

924
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: they did one, a race war would inevitably follow and

925
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 2: his credit and one letter to a friend, he placed

926
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: the blame on deep rooted prejudices by white people, which is,

927
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 2: you know, sounds sympathetic, but then he also blames ten

928
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 2: thousand recollections by the Blacks of the injuries they have sustained.

929
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: And then beyond that he adds the real distinctions which

930
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: nature has made, which is race science. Right now, he

931
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: was talking about, yeah.

932
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: You're two for three, bro, Yeah, yeah.

933
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, those first two points, well those are things. Yeah,

934
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: like people are going to be very angry about what's

935
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: been done to them, and you do have to account

936
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: for that somehow. And then he gets then he gets

937
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 2: into the race science. And this all worked on a

938
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: lot of his admirers though, right, like a surprising number

939
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: of people kind of bought that, like, well, he doesn't

940
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 2: really like this, but this is a really thorny problem,

941
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: and like maybe he's right, you know, we have to

942
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: avoid a race war. Like you've got these kind of

943
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: intellectuals who know slavery is wrong, and they also don't

944
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 2: they haven't been in a lot of cases to the

945
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 2: United States. They don't have great context for like how

946
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 2: brutal the system really is, or how much Jefferson is

947
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:38,479
Speaker 2: full of shit?

948
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, It's like you got your little brother in

949
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 3: a headlock, and you're like, if I let you go,

950
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 3: do you promise not to punch me? Swear swear swear

951
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 3: on mo sweared on our mother that you will not

952
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,439
Speaker 3: punch me. I can't let you go unless you swear.

953
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 3: Are you gonna punch It's like, man, yeah, what are

954
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 3: we talking about here?

955
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? That is Jefferson like gets himself trapped very much

956
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 2: in that that mode of thinking, dude, but he's good

957
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: enough about talking about it in a way that it

958
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: makes it seem less fucked up than it actually is.

959
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: That said, by the time Jefferson's been in Paris a

960
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 2: few years, some of these admirers of his have started

961
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: to notice that it shure didn't seem like any kind

962
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 2: of gradual emancipation program was in place, right. They were like, Okay,

963
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 2: we agreed with you, maybe this has to be done gradually,

964
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: but like, it doesn't actually seem like you guys are

965
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: doing anything over there. Yeah, what's up with that?

966
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? I hate that. I hate the like the what

967
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 3: I was going to guy? Yeah, that's the guy. I

968
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 3: got a lot of plans like, well, my plan is

969
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 3: to do this, but we got to make sure this,

970
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: and then I forgot about that, and then probably tomorrow

971
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 3: we'll go get it. Oh you was the I was

972
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 3: going to guy, You're not finna do it.

973
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 2: I'm definitely gonna write this screenplay one day. It seems

974
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: like you talk about it a lot, but you're not

975
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 2: doing anything.

976
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: A man maybe should write, maybe you should start.

977
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Jefferson is writing, but he is not doing

978
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: any emancipating. And one of the people who notices that

979
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: is French editor and future revolutionary politician Jean Nicholas de

980
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 2: mune who.

981
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 3: You should talk about after this ad break.

982
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, shoot, yes, speaking of John Nicholas d'munet, these

983
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 2: ads would he'd love, would you? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah. D

984
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: Mooney yourself towards spending money, you can that one. Yeah,

985
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: we figured it out basically. Ah, we're back. So his

986
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 2: friend Demuinae is like, hey, it doesn't look like you're

987
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 2: doing any of the stuff you'd said you were going

988
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 2: to do, and Jefferson responds He sends a letter back

989
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 2: writing that emancipation has only been delayed because quote persons

990
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 2: of virtue and firmness thought the timing wasn't right. Quote.

991
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 2: They saw that the moment of doing it with success

992
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: was not yet arrived, and that an unsuccessful effort, as

993
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: too often happens, would only rivets still closer the chains

994
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: of bondage and retard the moment of deliberty to the

995
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 2: suppressed description of men. No, these really smart guys. You

996
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 2: don't know them, but they're like, they're super smart.

997
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 3: They actually funny.

998
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 2: If we like fuck this up, it'll be even worse

999
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 2: for the people we own. So we really just got

1000
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: to kind of wait, you know, we gotta do it right.

1001
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:24,399
Speaker 2: We want to do it right.

1002
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, We're gonna do it. We want to do it right.

1003
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1004
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 3: I still believe there needs to be in all of

1005
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 3: our halls of justice and dialogue and stuff like that,

1006
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 3: the command FAM button. Yeah, like just to come on, fam,

1007
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 3: Like there needs to be that needs to be a

1008
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 3: button where it's like you can have these high and lofty,

1009
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 3: you know, precedent setting you know, swooping, uh, you know,

1010
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 3: air tight logical discussions that are probably again incredibly articulate

1011
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 3: and air type. But I'm gonna hit the command fan button.

1012
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 3: Come on fan, yeah, bright, yeah, and everybody in the

1013
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,839
Speaker 3: room knows what that means. You know what that means.

1014
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 3: Come on, f Yeah, you tell me smarter people.

1015
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 4: Come on, fam, have you to have the come on

1016
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 4: fan button and get the fuck out Claus in all situations?

1017
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 3: Yes, and to get the fuck out Claus get the Yeah.

1018
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 3: Those are the two things we are.

1019
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: Adding pressing the pressing the common fam button and mashes

1020
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 2: the mountain Henry Winsick Rights. Jefferson admitted mentioning that the

1021
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 2: Virginia legislature had liberalized the slave laws so as to

1022
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 2: enable individual owners to free people at will. For Demione

1023
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: would have then asked why persons of virtue and firmness

1024
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 2: had not yet freed their slaves, particularly why Jefferson had

1025
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 2: not freed his. Jefferson also did not mention that in

1026
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: revising the slave code, he had suggested a law compelling

1027
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 2: a white woman who bore a mixed race child to

1028
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: leave Virginia or be placed out of the protection of

1029
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 2: the laws.

1030
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 3: Damn.

1031
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, that's pretty that's pretty bad. Yeah.

1032
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 3: So they already do it, jo like y'all, Yeah, y'all did,

1033
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 3: we don't already y'all can do it, but ain't nobody

1034
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,240
Speaker 3: doing it? Mister virtue of people.

1035
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's what we're going to talk more

1036
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 2: about his attitudes towards you know, what was then called missagenation,

1037
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: because they're really incoherent, right, like they he is not

1038
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 2: at all consistent about this, but that is a particularly

1039
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 2: hideous moment, right.

1040
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 3: Like yeah, the missigenation. Yeah, the misigenation stuff is the

1041
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 3: stuff that like swoops around like black community so much,

1042
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 3: specifically about Thomas Jefferson. Why we're like, you're shitbag, bro, Like.

1043
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he wanted to because what he's saying there

1044
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: is like if a white woman has a mixed race child,

1045
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: they're not protected by the law, so like members of

1046
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 2: their family can murder them and not get in trouble, right,

1047
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: Like that is what he's suggesting, Like it's it really

1048
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 2: is ugly. So the ideological incoherence behind between some of

1049
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 2: the words and most of the actions of this prophet

1050
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 2: of liberty are really well described in Ellis's book American Sphinx,

1051
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 2: which is kind of written to explain this part of

1052
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,479
Speaker 2: Jefferson that like, wow, it really seems like he says

1053
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 2: a bunch of shit that he does not do right

1054
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 2: or that. Yeah. Yeah, And in that book, LS lays

1055
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 2: out another example of how Jefferson jinked away from confronting

1056
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 2: this issue in his correspondence with his French friends. You

1057
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 2: know that nobody wishes more ardently to see an abolition

1058
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 2: not only of the trade, but of the condition of slavery,

1059
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 2: he wrote to a French friend in seventeen eighty eight.

1060
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: But I am here as a public servant, and those

1061
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 2: whom I serve have not yet been able to give

1062
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 2: their voice against this practice. It is decent for me

1063
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 2: to avoid too public a demonstration. If my wishes to

1064
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 2: see it abolished without serving the cause here, it might

1065
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: render me less able to serve it beyond the water,

1066
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: he began to develop the argument. It became the centerpiece

1067
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 2: of his public position on slavery throughout his mature years

1068
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 2: and until the end of his life, that the problem

1069
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 2: should be passed along to the next generation of an

1070
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: American statesman, and he really becomes the father of our

1071
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 2: country in that moment, Like, well, really, what I got

1072
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 2: to do is just push this on a generation.

1073
00:54:55,280 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 3: Sounds like it sounds like it sounds like a tomorrow problem. Yeah,

1074
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 3: got it.

1075
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:01,760
Speaker 2: Wow.

1076
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 3: When I was a kid at our church, one of

1077
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 3: our pastors Pastor Renee, he's just alg black woman. She

1078
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 3: used to say, a lot of taki taki, not a

1079
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 3: lot of dewey dewey. You know, you guys got a

1080
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 3: lot of It's a lot of talkie talkie, you know,

1081
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 3: Like I need to see a little more dewey dewey,

1082
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 3: you know. So like every time I'd hear like this,

1083
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 3: that's what I think of, Like, all right, pastor a right,

1084
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 3: Pastor Renette, You're right, I need we need some more

1085
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 3: dewey dewey. Yeah.

1086
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 2: So the question I'm left with here is was he

1087
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 2: just a psychopath?

1088
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 3: Right?

1089
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 2: Like? Is he just one of the like a lot

1090
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 2: of American politicians or politicians in general, who's calculating whatever

1091
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 2: will he can say to further his interests, but he

1092
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 2: just does not care about the reality of like what

1093
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: he's doing. Or is it like you know, people use

1094
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 2: that term for Steve Jobs, the reality distortion field, which

1095
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: he eventually used on himself when he used to treat

1096
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: his cancer. Is it that is he like, is he

1097
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 2: really convinced himself that this is a well, I can't

1098
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 2: be you know, most of the other people in American politics,

1099
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 2: all these other politicians that I need to do these

1100
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: other great things that I want to do. They can't

1101
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 2: be anti slavery because of the realities of the you know,

1102
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 2: the state that they're in, you know, the terrible time

1103
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 2: that we're in. And I don't want to make them.

1104
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 2: I don't want to embarrass them because then I won't

1105
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 2: be able to do the other important things that I

1106
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,399
Speaker 2: need to do. Right, has he convinced himself of that?

1107
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 2: Is it just the lie that he knows will work?

1108
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 2: And I don't know. I contend that part of what's

1109
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,320
Speaker 2: going on here is what I like to call speech

1110
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 2: and debate syndrome. Right, This is a tendency I've noticed

1111
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 2: in public figures who came out of competitive speech and debate,

1112
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 2: guys like Ben Shapiro, and it convinced themselves. Competitive debate

1113
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: is a game with rules that you can, you know,

1114
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 2: take advantage of based on what you can convince a

1115
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 2: judge is true with wordplay and it's not or sorry.

1116
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 2: They convince themselves that, like, because that's what debate is. Yeah,

1117
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: they guys like Ben Shapiro convince themselves it's actually a

1118
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 2: search for truth. Right that, Like, being able to win

1119
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 2: a debate means that you're right even if you're just

1120
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 2: like lying and saying whatever dumb shit comes into your

1121
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 2: head to try and make an argument in that moment. Yeah,

1122
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 2: and that means my arguments better. Yeah, exactly, It's like, no,

1123
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 2: it means that, like, this is a game that you

1124
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 2: score points in and you have found a way to

1125
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 2: maximize your point And you can maximize your points by

1126
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 2: just making shit up or exaggerating, lying about what's in sources.

1127
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 2: Like I've done all of those things to win speech

1128
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: debate competitions.

1129
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

1130
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, constructing an argument that sounds good is what matters.

1131
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 2: And if what your writing sounds good enough, people won't

1132
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 2: pay attention to like the incoherencies inside it. Like as

1133
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: long as you can get you can razzle, dazzle your

1134
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 2: opponent away from not noticing them, then you can win,

1135
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 2: even if there are huge inconsistencies and the thing that

1136
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 2: you're arguing. And I wonder if Jefferson is kind of

1137
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: doing that to himself right in order to kind of

1138
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 2: avoid getting judged by these people that he admires and

1139
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: that he wants to think well of him, He's coming

1140
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 2: up with all these kind of like bullshit ways to

1141
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 2: obfuscate the reality, which is that he just doesn't really

1142
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 2: want to free his slaves, right, yeah, like he likes

1143
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 2: stoning people.

1144
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 3: And it just but it feels icky. It's almost like, well,

1145
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 3: I don't want to sound like them fools, like yeah,

1146
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 3: at least at least I'm like acknowledging and turning myself

1147
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 3: into a pretzel rather than just sounding like this guy

1148
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 3: like your you sound like a knuckle dragging you know

1149
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 3: what I'm saying, Like I'm a I'm a distinguished civilized

1150
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 3: man like and I wonder if there's that just the

1151
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 3: pride of like even though I agree with y'all, yeah,

1152
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: I can't accept that I agree.

1153
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 2: With y'all yeah yeah, because I know this is evil

1154
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 2: and I don't want to be judged by people who

1155
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 2: are better now or folks in the future. So I

1156
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 2: have to find a way to thread the needle while

1157
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 2: still getting the thing I want. Yes, So Jefferson writes

1158
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: this banger kind of as an example of this sort

1159
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: of sophistry. He writes this in a letter to Demine

1160
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: about the injustice of slavery. When the measure of their

1161
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 2: tears shall be full when they're grown, she'll have involved

1162
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 2: heaven itself in darkness. Doubtless a God of justice will

1163
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: awaken to their the stress, and by diffusing light and

1164
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 2: liberality among their oppressors, were at length by his exterminating

1165
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: thunder manifest his attention to the things of this world

1166
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 2: and that they are not left to the guidance of

1167
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 2: a blind fatality. Like eventually, God's going to realize how

1168
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 2: fucked up this is. You'll take care of it.

1169
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 3: Right, It's going to end because this is wrong. So

1170
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 3: if I don't do it, I know it's going to okay, Right,

1171
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 3: God man twisted yourself in.

1172
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1173
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: In Americans, unseasoned season Yeah no, salt no salt no, no.

1174
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 2: He would he Yeah. In American Sphinx, Ellis excla season, Yeah,

1175
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 2: boiled chickens. Just just boil your boil your the dough

1176
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 2: in a hot dog water. Yeah, yes, call it the

1177
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 2: Jefferson Yes so in Americans, Ellis explains a lot of

1178
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 2: the kind of the hypocrisy here by saying that Jefferson's

1179
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 2: chief goal in any face to face interaction was to

1180
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 2: avoid awkwardness and confrontation. Right quote. Jefferson always regarded candor

1181
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: and courtesy as incompatible, and when forced to choose, he

1182
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 2: invariably picked courtesy, thereby avoiding unpleasant confrontations. Letter writing was

1183
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: a perfect instrument for this diplomatic skill, in part because

1184
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 2: of Jefferson's mastery of the written word, and in part

1185
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 2: because different audiences could be independently targeted. Yeah, and so

1186
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 2: he's it's also like, well, part of what he's doing

1187
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 2: here isn't even necessarily that he wants to be thought of. Well,

1188
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 2: he just doesn't like to argue with people, and so

1189
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 2: he's going to say whatever he thinks will get them

1190
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 2: to stop giving him shit without confronting them.

1191
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 3: Right, that's crazy modern.

1192
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he does, right, he is. He is the

1193
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 2: first twenty first century man.

1194
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's crazy.

1195
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 2: He's an asshole out of time. So in this passage,

1196
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 2: Ellis is kind of talking about the fact that while

1197
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: he's living it up in Paris, Jefferson publishes all of

1198
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 2: these letters back in the United States, like warning young

1199
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 2: Americans not to go to Paris because it's like decadent

1200
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 2: and depraved and it'll it'll ruin your morals as a person. Right,

1201
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 2: He's like living it up and being like, oh, yeah,

1202
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 2: you don't want to go to Paris, guys, you know,

1203
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 2: just just just stay in the field in Virginia.

1204
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 3: It's fine, and I enjoy his French women.

1205
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's trying not to get caught up.

1206
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 3: Get caught bro, you know what I'm saying, trying to share.

1207
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: Either he'sent xoxo to our life.

1208
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it's also you know, he's a

1209
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 2: as a fairly modern, open minded guy. He's perfectly capable

1210
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 2: of enjoying you know, the scene in Paris totally, but

1211
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: he knows that that's not popular with like American conservatives,

1212
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 2: so he has to write letters home about like, oh, yeah,

1213
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 2: there's such decadent even like really gross people. We don't

1214
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:51,439
Speaker 2: need to be going over to.

1215
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 3: You, like, yeah, really be telling you what we're doing

1216
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 3: out here. You know what I'm saying, he thought about

1217
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 3: for it.

1218
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 1: He's every politician ever.

1219
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 2: No guys politician ever. You got to avoid the drugs

1220
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 2: over there. Like I was sniff testing a bunch of

1221
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 2: their cocaine the other day to make sure it's safe

1222
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 2: for other people, and I'm just not sure. I'm gonna

1223
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 2: need to check on more, right, you know, That's really

1224
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 2: the only thing for me to do.

1225
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted to go into these brothels to make

1226
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 3: sure these women are being well taken care of. Yeah,

1227
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 3: that they're healthy. And I just went in for that.

1228
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 3: I just wanted to test.

1229
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And after nine or ten hours, I realized there

1230
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 2: was no fire. Exit. Come on, come on, guys.

1231
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1232
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 2: In one dinner with a bunch of abolitionists in France,

1233
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 2: he was asked yet again, why hasn't there been any

1234
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 2: move for general emancipation and you're supposedly liberty loving country.

1235
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 2: Jefferson just bullshitted, saying that some slave owners had tried

1236
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 2: to free their slaves out of the goodness of their hearts,

1237
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 2: and they'd even given them land and like tools, and

1238
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 2: it had failed because these poor black people weren't ready

1239
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 2: for the realities of freedom, and they were so scared

1240
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 2: they asked to be taken back as slaves. Now, hmmm,

1241
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,439
Speaker 2: that's obviously a lie. Like he's literally just like, I'm

1242
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 2: just gonna lie so that these people I can win

1243
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 2: this argument, right, that's what he's doing. One of the

1244
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 2: guys he's at dinner with as an American who was

1245
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 2: working as a spy for the British. He may have

1246
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 2: also been a double agent working for the Americans. It's

1247
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 2: kind of unclear but this guy writes Jefferson a letter

1248
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 2: after this dinner, and it's basically like citation, please, like

1249
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 2: you brought this story up? Where can I read more

1250
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 2: about this?

1251
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 3: That's bullshit?

1252
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this seems interesting. Is there any evidence that

1253
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 2: it happened? And Jefferson replied, oh yeah, dude, you know

1254
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 2: it was some Quakers who did it, who like freed

1255
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 2: those guys and then had to take him back. And

1256
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 2: I don't actually know their names. Uh, but he he

1257
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 2: offers up, let me get back to you. He does

1258
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 2: offer up more details in this letter, some of which

1259
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 2: contradict what he'd said during the dinner quote. I remember

1260
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 2: that the landlord was obliged to plant their crops for them,

1261
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 2: to direct all their operations during every season and according

1262
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 2: to the weather. But what is more afflicting, he was

1263
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 2: obliged to watch them daily and almost constantly, to make

1264
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 2: them work, and even to whip them. These slaves chose

1265
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 2: to steal from their neighbors rather than work. They became

1266
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 2: public nuisances and in most cases were reduced to slavery. Again,

1267
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 2: and that's very different. I also don't think that's true.

1268
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 2: But like saying, well, they committed crimes and were re enslaved.

1269
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 2: Is different from them saying begging taken back, right.

1270
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 3: They wanted to come back. RH few things in that story.

1271
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 3: One is I'm obviously you can't say this of everyone,

1272
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 3: but Quakers famously abolitionists, famously anti slavery.

1273
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 2: Yes, so the.

1274
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 3: Idea so like you're starting a story with the people

1275
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 3: that already disagree with the institution in the first place

1276
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 3: and helped out in the underground railroad data ones. Okay,

1277
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 3: got it. So that's first number one. And then even

1278
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:51,959
Speaker 3: if you sit in even if that's true, you're sitting

1279
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 3: across the table and you're like, you set them free

1280
01:04:55,960 --> 01:05:00,959
Speaker 3: in a country where everybody else where they're gonna go tools.

1281
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 3: Of course they're terrified. What the fuck are you talking about?

1282
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 3: The first other free white person they see is gonna

1283
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 3: kill them or try to enslave them. Yeah, of course

1284
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 3: that's what happened. What do you mean they couldn't handle it?

1285
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, well, and that's so here's I wanted

1286
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 2: to like, there's actually a real story behind us, and

1287
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 2: it is completely different from the story that Jefferson tells,

1288
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 2: which is that Okay, a bunch of around this time,

1289
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 2: like in the late seventeen hundreds, a bunch of Quakers

1290
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 2: had freed their slaves. Because there's kind of this almost

1291
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 2: it's almost like a meme that overtakes Quaker culture, which

1292
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 2: is this very specific argument that the conclusion of it

1293
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 2: is that God has made everybody the same. Right, It's

1294
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 2: like a scriptural argument, but the conclusion people start making

1295
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 2: and they are like people traveling different Quaker communities like

1296
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 2: arguing this is God made everybody the same, which means

1297
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 2: there are no natural differences between the races. Everybody's just people.

1298
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 2: We shouldn't own people, right, Yeah, Now, manu mission. When

1299
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 2: this starts happening, manumission is illegal in Virginia. This is

1300
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 2: the mid seventeen seventies. You're not a l to free

1301
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 2: your slaves in Virginia. So Quakers spent years fighting in

1302
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 2: court to make that legal, which culminates in Virginia legalizing manumission.

1303
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 2: This is a big deal. During the years that Jefferson

1304
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 2: was in state politics, he has to have known the

1305
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 2: reality of the situation, right, which is not that these

1306
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 2: people all had to go back into slavery. That is

1307
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 2: not what happens. Like a lot of people just got

1308
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 2: freed because Quakers were pretty chill. Yeah, Now Jefferson knows

1309
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 2: he's lying. And part of how you know he knows

1310
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 2: he's lying is that in that letter back to that

1311
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 2: dude where he's like bullshitting about this, he's like, you know,

1312
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 2: I'm probably I don't remember everything perfectly, so so don't

1313
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 2: make it. Make no use of this imperfect information. If

1314
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 2: you plan to write an article. I don't want you

1315
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 2: citing me in an article.

1316
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 3: Don't quote me, bro, Yeah.

1317
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: Don't unless he says. If you want to quote me

1318
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 2: in face to face conversations, you can do that.

1319
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 3: Right.

1320
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 2: If you want to just lie at as somebody, that's fine,

1321
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 2: that's what I did, right, don't quote me. That might

1322
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 2: get embarrassing when people realize I'm a liar.

1323
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 4: He said, I said, he said, I said, But I said,

1324
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 4: but like, don't tell anybody.

1325
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 2: But don't tell anybody unless it's face then it's cool.

1326
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 3: So funny. Hey, look, I might be remembered, like I'm

1327
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 3: telling you this happened. Wait, I might be remembered this,

1328
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 3: but look, but but for real, though, don't quote me

1329
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 3: on it. Yeah, so hilarious.

1330
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's choice.

1331
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 3: Hey, So it's like, hey, so you don't know shit

1332
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 3: then right, Yeah, so you're folks, so you don't know.

1333
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 3: So what's the point of the story if you can't

1334
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 3: tell me?

1335
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 2: Okay, great stuff, So speaking of I don't know basic reality. Uh.

1336
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 2: The famed liberty liberty advocate spent a large part of

1337
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 2: his years in Paris trying to get out of his

1338
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 2: debts to his creditors by arguing that he deserved compensation

1339
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 2: for the slaves who had died of smallpox. In general

1340
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 2: Cornwallis's camp, Oh word, basically, I shouldn't have to pay

1341
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 2: you people as much because I didn't want you killed.

1342
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, they wouldn't have died if you ain't give him smallpox. Yeah. Wow.

1343
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 2: So his debts. The reason why he's trying to do

1344
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 2: this is his debts, and a lot of those debts

1345
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 2: come from that bad deal that he inherited from his

1346
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 2: father in law. Are crushing at this point. In July

1347
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 2: of seventeen eighty seven, he wrote to his property manager

1348
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 2: in Monticello that he couldn't sell any more land because

1349
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,919
Speaker 2: it was quote the only sure provision for his children.

1350
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 2: But he also couldn't sell more of his slaves quote,

1351
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 2: as there remains any prospect of paying my debts with

1352
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 2: their labor. Right, and this is we did the top

1353
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 2: Roberty Lee episodes earlier this year. That's the same logic

1354
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 2: as Lee. I'd love to free these people, but I

1355
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 2: need them to make me money because I'm in debt, right,

1356
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:38,640
Speaker 2: sucking casts. Yeah yeah. And it's what's fucked up is that,

1357
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 2: like Lee at least doesn't try to justify it other

1358
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:43,560
Speaker 2: than like, well, I need the money, you know, fuck it. Yeah,

1359
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,120
Speaker 2: I'm just a racist, you know, I really care. Jefferson

1360
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 2: the Profit of Liberty has to like twist this by

1361
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 2: claiming that what he's doing is somehow the best thing

1362
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:53,839
Speaker 2: for his slaves.

1363
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:54,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1364
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 2: Quote in this, I am governed solely by views to

1365
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 2: their happiness, which will render it worth their while to

1366
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 2: use extraordinary exertions for some time to enable me to

1367
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 2: put them ultimately on an easier footing, which I will

1368
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 2: do the moment they have paid the debts due from

1369
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 2: the estate, two thirds of which have been contracted by

1370
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 2: purchasing them. Right. Well, the money came because we bought

1371
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 2: these people, so like they kind of owe it, right.

1372
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do. They do have a cost, Yeah, there's

1373
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 3: a cost tied to this, and just you know, I

1374
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,599
Speaker 3: hate it. Yeah, the world we live in, it's our

1375
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 3: modern world.

1376
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 2: But right, yeah, so even what's interesting, Yeah, because he

1377
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 2: has this view that like, these people owe me for

1378
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 2: the debt of their you know, bringing them over here,

1379
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 2: and even the small children who like we're born here

1380
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 2: owed me a debt. They are born owing me money. Right,

1381
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 2: that is how he views this. You know, this guy

1382
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,360
Speaker 2: who makes a big part of his career trying to

1383
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,680
Speaker 2: like fighting against what he sees is the evils of

1384
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 2: inherited debt, sees no moral quandary, and of fixing debt

1385
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 2: to the children who are born into his ownership. And

1386
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 2: in fact, a major story of Jefferson's Paris years is

1387
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 2: that he comes to see slavery as the answer to

1388
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 2: not just his but the whole nation's financial woes. Virginia

1389
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 2: planters owed millions to bankers in Great Britain, and the

1390
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:21,600
Speaker 2: new nation also found itself hobbled by debt to the

1391
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 2: country it had just beaten at war. Farming, Jefferson had

1392
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 2: come to see, was a form of gambling because he's

1393
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 2: a bad farmer. Right, It's like it's not reliable enough

1394
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 2: for making money. Slavery, though, is a safe investment. It's

1395
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 2: basically a treasury bond. Right. He writes at length to

1396
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 2: his friends like gleefully basically that he's calculated a rate

1397
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 2: of return, right, Yeah, and that I get because of

1398
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 2: like my slaves are continuing to have kids. The value

1399
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 2: of the people I own increases by about four percent

1400
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 2: every year, and it's really stable. It's like the most

1401
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 2: stable investment he that exists at the time. Right. And

1402
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 2: this is particularly beneficial because Jefferson is going to use

1403
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 2: these people as collateral with a Dutch bank to rebuild Monticello. Right,

1404
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 2: That's how he funds making the house we're going to

1405
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 2: talk about next episode. Is like using these people as

1406
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 2: collateral and alone. He is a pioneer in financializing slavery, right,

1407
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 2: taking it beyond just well, we need to grow food,

1408
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 2: and we don't want to do it ourselves, so we

1409
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 2: own people and use them for it too. I am

1410
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:28,799
Speaker 2: treating these people I own as an investment viasu as

1411
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 2: it's a bond, you know, it's a treasury bond or something,

1412
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 2: right like. That's how he's or money market account or

1413
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 2: some shit, right like that. That's one of his big innovations. Now,

1414
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 2: it's during this time in France seventeen eighty five to

1415
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 2: eighty nine, that Jefferson also starts what historians often refer

1416
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 2: to as his relationship with Sally Hemmings. I am going

1417
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 2: to start by laying out the absolute verified facts of

1418
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 2: the situation as we know them. In seventeen eighty seven,

1419
01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 2: midway through his ambassadorship, Sally travels to Europe alongside Jeffery's

1420
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 2: daughter Mary. We do not know what Jefferson and Sally

1421
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 2: did during this period or what point they started doing it, right,

1422
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 2: Sally never writes anything about that, but during her two

1423
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:14,560
Speaker 2: and a half years in Paris, we know she negotiates

1424
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:19,600
Speaker 2: with Jefferson what Monticello describes as extraordinary privileges for herself

1425
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 2: and freedom for her future children. Right like they have

1426
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:29,800
Speaker 2: a negotiation, Jefferson did free Sally's kids, and as Monticello

1427
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 2: dot Org admits, Jefferson did not grant freedom to any

1428
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 2: other enslaved family unit.

1429
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 3: Sally's the legend that right, we know about, Yeah.

1430
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,720
Speaker 2: And that is the legend. Part of this actually is

1431
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,680
Speaker 2: one of the more satisfying, but one of like the

1432
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 2: it's very interesting. This legend exists that like well, Jefferson

1433
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 2: had a bunch of children with Sally Hemmings. That is

1434
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 2: a legend in the black community for decades. Historians are like,

1435
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 2: probably not, probably not, guys, we did the math. There's

1436
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 2: really just you know, it's just unlikely. It's just unlikely.

1437
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 2: And yeah, the historians are very much wrong.

1438
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:10,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, he absolutely did. We know us.

1439
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that. So this is rape,

1440
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 2: and it's not just rape because he owns her right

1441
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: when she moves to Paris. Sally is fourteen years old

1442
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 2: and Thomas is forty four. Yes, hey everybody. As a note,

1443
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 2: members of the Hemmings family have claimed that they think

1444
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 2: the relationships started when Sally was sixteen. You know, we'll

1445
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 2: never know for sure either way. You know, you're talking

1446
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:40,960
Speaker 2: either fourteen and forty four or sixteen and forty six.

1447
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 2: I don't really think one is less gross than the other.

1448
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 2: So there you go. Like, even if this had been

1449
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 2: two free people, this was this would not be consensual. Yeah,

1450
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,920
Speaker 2: and I think that that the age gap gets left out.

1451
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 2: That was not emphasized to me at least. Yeah, No,

1452
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 2: was the cap again, fourteen and forty four. That's disgusting,

1453
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:12,560
Speaker 2: that it's really bad. Yeah, is three times her age.

1454
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 4: That is that is disgusting. It is I would like

1455
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 4: for one second second, Yeah, I would like to pause

1456
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 4: for a second. Fourteen she was a child. Forty four

1457
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,799
Speaker 4: he was disgusting, and forty four in that day and age,

1458
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 4: he is old. He looks like shit is lizard skinny?

1459
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:39,880
Speaker 2: I think it does? You know, that's again we don't

1460
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:43,639
Speaker 2: get nearly enough of like Sally or what she thought

1461
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,720
Speaker 2: that what you hear about, like her making this negotiation

1462
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 2: for the freedom of her kids, Like what it suggests

1463
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 2: is somebody who is incredibly intelligent and savvy and doing

1464
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 2: the thing that is going to be best for her kids,

1465
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 2: like that is in a hideous situation. But like I

1466
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:04,479
Speaker 2: wish we knew more of her, because what we know

1467
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 2: suggests a pretty impressive person.

1468
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:11,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was my entry point to Thomas Jefferson, which

1469
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,600
Speaker 3: is so funny. It's not the other way around, Like, yeah,

1470
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:17,120
Speaker 3: my entry point was so yeah.

1471
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 2: And it probably should be because this is kind of

1472
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 2: what says the most about.

1473
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 4: But still, you did not know she was fourteen?

1474
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 2: I didn't, really I did. I did. I learned as

1475
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 2: a young No, yeah he said he.

1476
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 3: Did, Yes, Yeah, I knew she was a child.

1477
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:33,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like they of course they do skip

1478
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 1: that part.

1479
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,200
Speaker 4: Of course it is because they were like he was

1480
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,760
Speaker 4: Thomas Jefferson, he was so handsome.

1481
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:39,719
Speaker 1: He was such a good man.

1482
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:42,640
Speaker 4: No, he's a disgusting creep like the rest of us.

1483
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah he's Yeah. I had My teacher really jumped around

1484
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 2: it and was like, well he probably did, you know,

1485
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 2: have a relationship. That was always the term that was

1486
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:53,679
Speaker 2: used with Sally Hemmings and like, but really did leave

1487
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 2: out the whole She was fourteen and he was forty four.

1488
01:15:56,560 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 3: This was one of those like the fond moments with

1489
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,799
Speaker 3: my dad, like you're coming on from school, you're working

1490
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 3: on this, and you know, my dad like, man him,

1491
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 3: teachers don't know what they talking about, Like just like

1492
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 3: that those moments like that's not what happened. Let me

1493
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:12,559
Speaker 3: tell you, you know what I'm saying, Like, don't listen,

1494
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 3: they don't know what they talking about. And then he

1495
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 3: would sit down and be like, let me tell you

1496
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:17,760
Speaker 3: the real son, you know, and then and then would

1497
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 3: break the shit down and then be like, you know,

1498
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 3: you say what you got to say to him, but

1499
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 3: here's what happened. So thisd she I have specific memories

1500
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:27,840
Speaker 3: about this one. He was like no, I know you

1501
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:29,680
Speaker 3: got to pass your little test, but no, let me

1502
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:30,360
Speaker 3: say you got that.

1503
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 2: Man.

1504
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: You know what was that movie that like all of

1505
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 1: us had to watch?

1506
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:38,840
Speaker 3: Oh God, which one?

1507
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 2: No, there was one that like framed it as a romance. Yeah, right,

1508
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,240
Speaker 2: like yeah, like like fifteen years ago something like that.

1509
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 2: I forget when there was that one.

1510
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:52,680
Speaker 4: And then but then there's like a not not specific

1511
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:56,280
Speaker 4: to h it was like the Declaration of Independence movie

1512
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:57,840
Speaker 4: that all of us had.

1513
01:16:58,000 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 1: We watched it in in high school.

1514
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 3: It's a school one. Yeah, we watched.

1515
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:02,960
Speaker 1: In high school.

1516
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:05,240
Speaker 4: And I was like, they try and they try to

1517
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 4: make Tamash Everson seem like, oh, he's just he's so hot,

1518
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 4: he's so handsome, and it's like, oh.

1519
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:21,000
Speaker 2: No, guys pedophiles. Yeah. And there's another thing that's actually

1520
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 2: really fucked up about this that I didn't know, which

1521
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 2: is that so Sally's mother was Betty Hemmings. Betty Hemmings

1522
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:33,599
Speaker 2: was the consort of Martha Jefferson's father, Thomas's father in law.

1523
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:39,720
Speaker 2: Sally is John Wales's daughter, which makes her Martha Jefferson's

1524
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 2: half sister. So he is sleeping with the child's sister

1525
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 2: of his dead wife while working in Paris as a

1526
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 2: diplomat representing the United Nazza.

1527
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 3: You just taught me something.

1528
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:57,599
Speaker 4: So technically not not incest, but really gross.

1529
01:17:57,800 --> 01:17:58,719
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying?

1530
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:03,080
Speaker 2: I mean it, it's I don't know. I don't know

1531
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 2: how you want to parse that out.

1532
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 1: To be honest, I really don't want to parse it out.

1533
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:13,720
Speaker 4: I just want to say, Thomas Jefferson, you you bro,

1534
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 4: You're disgusting on every level.

1535
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 3: Even Roberty Elee didn't do that. Yeah, no, bro, Like,

1536
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 3: come on, man.

1537
01:18:23,479 --> 01:18:26,919
Speaker 2: So we're jumping around a bit. But but rumors about

1538
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 2: you know, all of this that like Thomas was had

1539
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:34,920
Speaker 2: a relationship with with with Sally first broke as a

1540
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 2: public matter in September of eighteen oh two, when a

1541
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:42,760
Speaker 2: political journalist named James Calendar not quite spelled like the

1542
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:46,519
Speaker 2: word Calendar wrote an article alleging Jefferson had for years

1543
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 2: quote kept as his concubine, one of his own slaves.

1544
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:52,759
Speaker 2: Her name is Sally, and actually I find it interesting

1545
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:56,000
Speaker 2: because by describing her as both one of his slaves

1546
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 2: and as a concubine, he's more accurate than the historians

1547
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 2: who talk about it as a relationship. Yes, right, because

1548
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:05,880
Speaker 2: a concubine doesn't have the freedom to not be a yeah, yeah,

1549
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 2: And I actually kind of think that that's not a

1550
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:10,800
Speaker 2: bad way, especially given the way in which people would

1551
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:12,080
Speaker 2: have actually talked about this at the time.

1552
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:14,880
Speaker 3: That's exactly they think that, Yeah, you're right, that is

1553
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 3: the most accurate way to say it, like, because that's

1554
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 3: what it is.

1555
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:20,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like what the con

1556
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:23,200
Speaker 2: did or whatever, you know. So, Calendar further went on

1557
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 2: to claim that Jefferson had had several children by her

1558
01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 2: in a write up on Monticello dot org. Quote. Although

1559
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 2: there were rumors of a sexual relationship between Jefferson and

1560
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 2: an enslaved woman before eighteen oh two, Calendar's article spread

1561
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:40,040
Speaker 2: the story widely. It was taken up by Jefferson's Federalist opponents,

1562
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 2: and it was published in many newspapers during the remainder

1563
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:46,160
Speaker 2: of Jefferson's presidency. Jefferson's policy was to offer no public

1564
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:49,120
Speaker 2: response to personal attacks, and he apparently made no explicit

1565
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:52,000
Speaker 2: public or private comment on this question, although a private

1566
01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 2: letter of eighteen oh five has been interpreted by some

1567
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 2: individuals as a denial of the story. Sally Hemmings left

1568
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 2: no known accounts Jefferson's daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph, privately denied

1569
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:05,839
Speaker 2: the published reports. Two of her children, Ellen Randolph Coolidge

1570
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:09,040
Speaker 2: and Thomas Jefferson Randolph, maintained many years later that such

1571
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,519
Speaker 2: a liaison was not possible on both moral and practical grounds.

1572
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:16,200
Speaker 2: They also stated that Jefferson's nephews, Peter and Samuel Carr,

1573
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 2: were the fathers of the light skinned Monticello slaves, some

1574
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:24,280
Speaker 2: thought to be Jefferson's children because they resembled him. Because yeah, now, yeah,

1575
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 2: that's both like lying that your nephew that you're like,

1576
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,479
Speaker 2: I guess if they're his nephews, they're like your cousins, right,

1577
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,519
Speaker 2: did it? Like it to protect your dad? Is gross?

1578
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 2: As I said, it took historians a long time to

1579
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,040
Speaker 2: acknowledge that any of this was true, and so for

1580
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:47,759
Speaker 2: decades there was no proof of this besides the compelling

1581
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 2: fact that Sally had a lot of kids who looked

1582
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:54,120
Speaker 2: like Thomas Jefferson. Dumas Malone basically leaves this out of

1583
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:57,919
Speaker 2: his work, and for decades historians mostly concluded it was bullshit,

1584
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:02,480
Speaker 2: and the story thus spread kind of mimetically right through communities.

1585
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:05,640
Speaker 2: Face to face, Both of abolitionists and of Black Americans.

1586
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 2: Monticello dot Org notes that a major source for the

1587
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 2: claim was two of Jefferson's children. Over the years, however,

1588
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 2: belief in a. Thomas Jefferson Sally Hemming's relationship was perpetuated

1589
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 2: in private. Two of her children, Madison and Eston, indicated

1590
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 2: that Jefferson was their father, and this belief has been

1591
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 2: perpetuated in the oral histories of generations of their descendants

1592
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:29,800
Speaker 2: as an important family truth. Now the story resolves here

1593
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,320
Speaker 2: in a way that I find satisfying, and the best

1594
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:34,719
Speaker 2: way to lay that out is I'm going to quote

1595
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 2: first a passage from the original edition of American Sphinx,

1596
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 2: published in nineteen ninety six. Since Ellis was largely analyzing

1597
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 2: the work of generations of biographers and historians before then,

1598
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:47,719
Speaker 2: he speaks with the voice of most of his profession

1599
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,919
Speaker 2: when he concludes, unless the trustees of the Thomas Jefferson

1600
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 2: Memorial Foundation decide to exhumin the remains and do DNA

1601
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 2: testing on Jefferson as well as some of his alleged progeny,

1602
01:21:57,080 --> 01:21:59,640
Speaker 2: it leaves the matter and mystery about which advocates on

1603
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:02,639
Speaker 2: either SAE I can freely speculate and surely will. Within

1604
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:05,960
Speaker 2: the scholarly world, especially within the community of Jefferson specialists,

1605
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 2: there seems to be a clear consensus that the story

1606
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:11,559
Speaker 2: is almost certainly not true. Within the much murkier world

1607
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:14,799
Speaker 2: of popular opinion, especially within the black community, the story

1608
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:17,599
Speaker 2: appears to have achieved the status of a self evident truth.

1609
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 2: So that's what Ellis writes in nineteen ninety six. Yes, basically, like, well,

1610
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:27,120
Speaker 2: people tell this as a story, and they seem to

1611
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:31,320
Speaker 2: believe it, but there's really no right. Two years after

1612
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:35,880
Speaker 2: Ellis publishes his book, in nineteen ninety eight, doctor Eugene

1613
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:38,720
Speaker 2: Foster carried out a series of DNA tests. And I

1614
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 2: am not well qualified to discuss the specifics of how

1615
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 2: you do a DNA test, but the result is that

1616
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:47,840
Speaker 2: they found a genetic link between Jefferson and Himmings descendants.

1617
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 2: Someone with the Jefferson male y chromosome fathered Eston Hemmings,

1618
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 2: Sally's last child, born in eighteen oh eight. About twenty

1619
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 2: five adult Jefferson's existed at the time, and some of

1620
01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 2: them did visit Monticello, But the study author's note the

1621
01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:06,800
Speaker 2: simplest and most probable conclusion was that Jefferson was the father.

1622
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 2: For years, Jefferson's descendants had tried to defend their sainted

1623
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 2: ancestors name by alleging his nephews had fathered the children instead.

1624
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:17,160
Speaker 2: But his nephews would have passed DNA to the Hemmings

1625
01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:21,040
Speaker 2: from John Carr, their grandfather, and that DNA was missing.

1626
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:24,719
Speaker 2: This rather forcefully set the historic community into an abrupt

1627
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:27,800
Speaker 2: about face. And this is so Elis. I just read

1628
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,240
Speaker 2: you what Ellis wrote ninety six where he's like, well,

1629
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 2: historians don't agree. Here's what he writes in an update

1630
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:36,000
Speaker 2: to that after this DNA test in the original edition,

1631
01:23:36,040 --> 01:23:37,720
Speaker 2: I went on to speculate that the likelihood of a

1632
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 2: Jefferson Hemmings liaison was remote, offering several plausible readings of

1633
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,599
Speaker 2: the indirect evidence to support by conjecture. No matter how

1634
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 2: plausible my interpretation, it turns out to have been dead wrong. Yes,

1635
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:50,720
Speaker 2: so that's good at least, right.

1636
01:23:51,640 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and you look, look, look pretends to be surprised.

1637
01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:00,200
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, Like that was like, oh word, okay,

1638
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:04,120
Speaker 3: welcome to the party. Yeah, thank you for telling us,

1639
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:04,919
Speaker 3: well we knew.

1640
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:08,760
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, And I do find it very the

1641
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:15,320
Speaker 2: crow that he has to eat there except generations of like, yeah,

1642
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 2: like oral tradition were right and we the historians were not.

1643
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:20,599
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1644
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:24,120
Speaker 2: Jefferson remained ambassador to France until November of seventeen eighty nine,

1645
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 2: several months after the outbreak of the revolution. He was

1646
01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:30,639
Speaker 2: an ardent defender and apologist of the revolution upon his return,

1647
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:33,720
Speaker 2: which is like controversial because a lot of people are

1648
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:35,920
Speaker 2: getting killed by the guillotine, right, There's a lot of

1649
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 2: ugly shit happening. And Jefferson's attitude, which is actually I

1650
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:41,960
Speaker 2: tend to agree with, is like, yeah, there's a lot

1651
01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:44,879
Speaker 2: of bad stuff happening, but like you're kind of ignoring

1652
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:47,760
Speaker 2: all the bad stuff that the old regime had to

1653
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:50,439
Speaker 2: do to stay in power, too, like, you know, totally

1654
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:53,960
Speaker 2: like on balance, I think this is probably going to

1655
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:57,680
Speaker 2: make the world a better place, right, And you know

1656
01:24:57,720 --> 01:24:59,839
Speaker 2: that's one of those things I don't, you know, entirely

1657
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:02,880
Speaker 2: disagree with this. In an American sphinx Ellis calls it

1658
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:07,000
Speaker 2: revolutionary realism and even compares Jefferson to a as a

1659
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:10,920
Speaker 2: thinker to Lenon and Mao, But not without good reason. Again,

1660
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:15,000
Speaker 2: Ho Chi Min's got to quote this guy, you know, wow, Yeah,

1661
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:18,040
Speaker 2: because he does have this almost religious belief in like

1662
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:22,320
Speaker 2: the revolution that is coming for human liberty. He just

1663
01:25:22,439 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 2: leaves out certain humans. Yeah, Jefferson's colleagues, like John Adams,

1664
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:29,559
Speaker 2: thought he was insane when he argued that the spirit

1665
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:32,439
Speaker 2: of seventy six and the Spirit of seventy nine had

1666
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 2: set the ball of liberty in motion to roll around

1667
01:25:35,160 --> 01:25:38,679
Speaker 2: the globe. The sheer amount of deception in Jefferson's public

1668
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:42,599
Speaker 2: statements and arguments makes it impossible to know how much

1669
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,400
Speaker 2: Jefferson believed in any of what he was saying. Here,

1670
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:48,200
Speaker 2: Ellis seems to argue that when it came to the

1671
01:25:48,240 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 2: grand design, his concept of the broad sweep of the future,

1672
01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:54,519
Speaker 2: the role of the English as a doomed counter revolutionary anchor,

1673
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:56,960
Speaker 2: and the US as a force for freedom, he truly

1674
01:25:57,040 --> 01:25:59,400
Speaker 2: believed what he said. But there's no way to argue

1675
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 2: he didn't like about his intentions for his own slaves,

1676
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 2: most of whom he'd never freed, and about his overall

1677
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:08,280
Speaker 2: belief in the morality of slavery. If he truly believed

1678
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:11,080
Speaker 2: it was evil, as he often said, he used it

1679
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:14,960
Speaker 2: for financial gain and in Keiley, his own comfort, and

1680
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,799
Speaker 2: went out of his way to lie about that Charles

1681
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 2: Francis Adams, the son of John Quincy Adams and a

1682
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 2: diplomat himself, wrote of Jefferson he did not always speak

1683
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:26,080
Speaker 2: exactly as he felt, either towards his friends or his enemies.

1684
01:26:26,160 --> 01:26:28,280
Speaker 2: As a consequence, he has left hanging over a part

1685
01:26:28,320 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 2: of public life, a vapor of duplicity, the presence of

1686
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:35,200
Speaker 2: which is generally felt more than it is seen. And

1687
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 2: I kind of like that that description of like this,

1688
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 2: like he's kind of part of our original sin as

1689
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 2: a nation, not just his owning people, but like the

1690
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 2: way in which he made lying central, like this obfuscation

1691
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:54,519
Speaker 2: of reality, Like he's one of these first people doing that,

1692
01:26:54,680 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 2: you know.

1693
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:58,840
Speaker 3: And yeah, like you said, the distortion field of that

1694
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:02,000
Speaker 3: Steve Jobs did. It was like the gift he gave

1695
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:07,240
Speaker 3: to the country, you know, of like yeah, and being

1696
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 3: so much more sinister in the fact that, like according

1697
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:12,920
Speaker 3: to your writings, like you know you're doing.

1698
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:17,840
Speaker 2: That, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, And that's like, you know,

1699
01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:21,040
Speaker 2: we talk about how like basically everyone can find to

1700
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:24,599
Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson to like agree with them in modern stuff.

1701
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 2: But yes, what I never see him compared to is like,

1702
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 2: you know, people like Trump and even you know, people

1703
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:33,800
Speaker 2: like every president, like the the degree to which presidents

1704
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 2: lie and obpus skate and basically the delete reality in

1705
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:43,680
Speaker 2: order to make it more convenient, which we sort of

1706
01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 2: that sort of gets laid out as like, well, that's

1707
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:48,599
Speaker 2: just part of politics, part of modernity, it's part of

1708
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 2: like our problem, you know, the war on truth as

1709
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 2: a result of you know, social media and all this stuff.

1710
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:57,040
Speaker 2: But like, no, it goes back very far. Jefferson is

1711
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:58,600
Speaker 2: helping to start that.

1712
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:02,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why they should have been a common fam button. Yeah,

1713
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:03,600
Speaker 3: old time.

1714
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:08,240
Speaker 2: I agree. Come on, yeah, come on man. Yeah, so

1715
01:28:08,360 --> 01:28:09,679
Speaker 2: prop that's part three.

1716
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:12,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, how we feel like.

1717
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 2: That's We're gonna talk about Monticello next time.

1718
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:19,719
Speaker 3: Okay, cool, and then we'll be done finally. Man, I'm

1719
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 3: feeling a little faint. Yeah. I feel like I'm glad

1720
01:28:28,120 --> 01:28:30,920
Speaker 3: that like millions of people will now catch up to

1721
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:34,920
Speaker 3: how we feel about Thomas Jefferson. Sure caught up. Yeah,

1722
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:37,280
Speaker 3: I'm glad you caught up, because like, don't stop quoting

1723
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:39,320
Speaker 3: this man. I mean some of the quotes by themselves

1724
01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:40,559
Speaker 3: are like yeah, it's a bar.

1725
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:42,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you're not a hero.

1726
01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:44,559
Speaker 3: You're not a hero.

1727
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:45,720
Speaker 1: No, you're disgusting.

1728
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:48,439
Speaker 3: You're disgusting, pretty gross. He is?

1729
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:51,800
Speaker 2: He is, Yeah, he is, he is. And like, I

1730
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 2: don't know, I part of why we did this now,

1731
01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:56,000
Speaker 2: I've been meaning to do something like this for a while.

1732
01:28:56,120 --> 01:28:58,479
Speaker 2: Is I read that book, Henry wind Seck's Master of

1733
01:28:58,520 --> 01:29:01,920
Speaker 2: the Mountain, and it's just so oh fucking good. It's

1734
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:07,800
Speaker 2: such a damning indictment of Jefferson in such a such

1735
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:11,120
Speaker 2: a well laid out one that it was kind of

1736
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:13,559
Speaker 2: like felt the need to read a lot more.

1737
01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:18,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would do I mean obviously, like I'm pissing

1738
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:22,400
Speaker 3: in the wind here, but it would do our education

1739
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 3: system such a favor if we would remove the mythos

1740
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:32,600
Speaker 3: of the founding fathers and understood them like this. And

1741
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 3: if you understand them like this, you understand modern politics better.

1742
01:29:36,160 --> 01:29:38,880
Speaker 3: You can articulate views better, we can understand laws better

1743
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 3: like you. We would our democracy would be so much

1744
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:45,240
Speaker 3: more healthy if you at least were honest about the

1745
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:47,479
Speaker 3: complexities of who these people were. Like if you was

1746
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:48,840
Speaker 3: a ship back us the ship bag, you know what

1747
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:50,640
Speaker 3: I'm saying, Like it is what it is, you just

1748
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:52,600
Speaker 3: use a ship bag. It did an amazing thing, you

1749
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying like, and that's and to me,

1750
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 3: I'm like, I feel like as a kid, it's like

1751
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:02,840
Speaker 3: I would have felt much better about the future if

1752
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:07,800
Speaker 3: it's like, dude, sometimes trash people do amazing things, and

1753
01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:12,120
Speaker 3: then sometimes, you know, amazing people can do trash stuff,

1754
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, Like, like, just give me

1755
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:18,280
Speaker 3: that mythos much better than like all these dudes are

1756
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:19,720
Speaker 3: like these dudes are saints, you know.

1757
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's almost like a a

1758
01:30:26,040 --> 01:30:29,200
Speaker 2: degree to which it's It's like if you were to say, like, hey,

1759
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:31,439
Speaker 2: you know this like writer you really liked was actually

1760
01:30:31,479 --> 01:30:34,719
Speaker 2: like a real messy, real piece of shita, people would

1761
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:36,840
Speaker 2: be like, well, yeah, especially if it's a TV writer, Right,

1762
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:38,599
Speaker 2: We're all we're all used to accepting that.

1763
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:39,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, we know.

1764
01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what Jefferson was mostly famous for. He was

1765
01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:44,400
Speaker 2: really good at writing and also a piece of shit,

1766
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:49,719
Speaker 2: you know, like shouldn't be too hard anyway. PROP any

1767
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:50,960
Speaker 2: pluggables to plug.

1768
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 3: I do man prop hip hop dot Com on the YouTube's,

1769
01:30:55,160 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 3: on the websites, on the socials, prop hip hop politics

1770
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 3: with PROP is we're chugging along, We're getting better, We're

1771
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:06,679
Speaker 3: putting out.

1772
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:08,400
Speaker 2: Videos better, faster, stronger.

1773
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:11,160
Speaker 3: There it is. We're out here daft punkin.

1774
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:12,920
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

1775
01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:16,400
Speaker 3: And yeah, man, and keep supporting the pod man, you.

1776
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:19,320
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, please please keep supporting the pod Listen to

1777
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:24,400
Speaker 2: hood Politics, buy props, book Terraform, please buy yes and

1778
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:27,840
Speaker 2: uh yeah we have. By the way, folks, we're helping

1779
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:30,759
Speaker 2: out the Portland Diaper Bank so that low income mothers

1780
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:33,640
Speaker 2: can have free diapers. So go to go fund me

1781
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:37,280
Speaker 2: Portland Diaper Bank Behind the Bastards. Just type all that in,

1782
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:39,320
Speaker 2: it'll take you to the thing and then you can

1783
01:31:39,360 --> 01:31:46,480
Speaker 2: donate money. Diapers that'll help are freakishly expensive, crazy expensive,

1784
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 2: and you always need them. Yeah, a lot, a lot

1785
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:54,000
Speaker 2: of things in our world are morally complicated. But making

1786
01:31:54,040 --> 01:31:56,920
Speaker 2: sure that people who have babies and don't have money

1787
01:31:56,960 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 2: don't have to worry about diapers.

1788
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:01,720
Speaker 3: Pretty easy, man. Yeah, that's a pretty easy one, you know.

1789
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:06,120
Speaker 2: Just help them buy diapers. So, folks, that's the episode.

1790
01:32:06,360 --> 01:32:08,200
Speaker 2: We'll be back in a couple of days.

1791
01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:14,759
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1792
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1793
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1794
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts,