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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have.

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Speaker 2: Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 2: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 2: best start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus,

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Speaker 3: my name is Caitlin Dorante. This is our show where

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Speaker 3: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the

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Speaker 3: Bechdel Test as a jump of goof point. The Bechtel Test,

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Speaker 3: of course, being something invented by our best friend, Alison Bechdel.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and she'll tell you more about it at her

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Speaker 4: house later where we're going to hang out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just kidding.

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Speaker 4: I mean this is actually kind of interesting because we're

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Speaker 4: talking about, you know, super fans and parasocial distance.

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Speaker 3: Today.

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Speaker 4: We are not going to perfect blue, Alison Bechdel. That's

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Speaker 4: the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Promise. We promise.

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Speaker 4: If you are not familiar with the Bechtel Test, we'll

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Speaker 4: tell you what it is. There's many versions of the test.

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Speaker 4: It was originally in Alison Bechdel's incredible comic collection Dice

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Speaker 4: to Watch out For. She has of course gone on

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Speaker 4: to have an incredible career in graphic memoir. But the

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Speaker 4: version of the test that we use require that two

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Speaker 4: characters of a marginalized gender speak to each other about

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Speaker 4: something other than a man for more than two lines

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Speaker 4: of dialogue, and that exchange should be meaningful, not a

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Speaker 4: high high. But what does count is women in conflict,

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Speaker 4: and that's what we're gonna get into today.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we didn't know how to start this. It's hard

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Speaker 4: when it's just like, what is a funny way to

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Speaker 4: start a conversation about perfect Blue? We'll figure it out.

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Speaker 3: But I did. I panicked. I didn't.

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Speaker 4: I was like, there, any joke would feel very insensitive.

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Speaker 3: It's a heavy film.

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Speaker 4: Although I think that we could be in that group.

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Speaker 3: What do you think?

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Speaker 4: I think we could do it.

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Speaker 3: I think we could be in the in the group,

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Speaker 3: Oh in the problem you mean cham exclamation point Cham.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm a huge I'm part of the Chamfam.

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Speaker 3: Oh my Chamfam.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, casual not scary, Yeah of course.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we're all pop girlies here. It's true. And

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Speaker 3: I'm the Sea and Cham.

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Speaker 4: I'm the Ham. You're the Sea, I'm the Ham and

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Speaker 4: uh huh's kind of how our band works.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, amazing.

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Speaker 4: Maybe you've heard of us. I'm excited to talk about it.

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Speaker 4: And the star of the movie for me is explaining

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Speaker 4: how the internet works, which makes sense because it's nineteen

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Speaker 4: ninety seven. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it made me giggle. I

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Speaker 4: was like, look at this, it's called a computer. There's

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Speaker 4: something on the internet.

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Speaker 3: Is it good?

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Speaker 4: And then the movie posits no, yeah, I think it

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Speaker 4: take this age quite well.

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Speaker 3: I mean truly, yes. Yeah, she explains what computers are,

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Speaker 3: she explains what the Internet is. The recipient of this

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Speaker 3: information does not understand, and kind of to this day,

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Speaker 3: I also do not understand.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a whole Well, we'll talk about internet culture.

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Speaker 4: I feel like this movie's really ahead of its time

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Speaker 4: in that regard. Yeah, but let's get our guests in here,

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Speaker 4: because this movie needs to be discussed, and now.

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Speaker 3: It really does. The movie, of course, is perfect Blue.

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Speaker 3: The guests are the hosts of the podcast show Jo Sunday.

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Speaker 3: It's Jianna and Chica. Welcome.

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Speaker 1: Yes, hi, Hello, thank you so much for having us.

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Speaker 1: We're so excited to be here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being here. Tell us more about your podcast. Well.

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Speaker 1: Showjo Sunday is a delectable podcast we like to say,

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Speaker 1: covering show, show and jose media, anime films, sometimes manga,

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Speaker 1: dissecting it through our segments that are all ice cream

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Speaker 1: pun names. So we go through all of our feelings,

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Speaker 1: taking apart each and everything we have felt watching it

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Speaker 1: and looking into the symbolism and the story writing, and

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Speaker 1: just digging in if you will, to every bite we can.

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Speaker 3: Yummy, tell us about your relationship with this movie, Perfect Blue, Chico.

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Speaker 3: Why don't you go first.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, once upon a time, when I was a

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Speaker 5: young warthog, I was very much so into anime. I

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Speaker 5: didn't know what it was. I just thought it was cartoons.

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Speaker 5: I mean it is, but then it's Japanese animation, and

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Speaker 5: so I couldn't really tell the difference. So in the beginning,

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Speaker 5: or at least in the nineties, I was watching like

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Speaker 5: Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z and stuff like that,

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Speaker 5: and I would go to Blockbuster and I would just

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Speaker 5: be like, I'm going to find the type of shows

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Speaker 5: that I like. I can tell because it's drawn differently.

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Speaker 5: And so I picked up Perfect.

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Speaker 3: Blue, Oh as a child.

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Speaker 5: As a child, Oh, I really shouldn't have watched that movie.

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Speaker 4: You couldn't have known you couldn't have known.

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Speaker 5: No, I couldn't have because it's just like, because we've

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Speaker 5: seen Mima and like the cute outfit and everything, and

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Speaker 5: I was just like, oh, like this seems great. Uh

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Speaker 5: so my relationship with it, it's like it's nostalgic. But

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Speaker 5: then it's also like a little bit flabbergasting, just because

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Speaker 5: I really had no business watching it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like we all have that piece

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Speaker 4: of media that really you're just like and that changed

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Speaker 4: the course of my life in a way I wasn't

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Speaker 4: prepared for because I shouldn't have been looking at it fascinating. Wow, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: what about eu Gianna?

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Speaker 1: My history with this film is far less interesting. So honestly,

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Speaker 1: I kept hearing about it from Chica because you know,

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Speaker 1: we've talked to some people about our history with anime,

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Speaker 1: and she would always bring up how she watched Perfect

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Speaker 1: Blue Too Young, and I was like, what is this movie? Like,

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Speaker 1: what is it about this movie? I'm like, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: watch it eventually, so like, I guess I'll find out.

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Speaker 1: And we had previously covered Millennium actress on show Show Sunday,

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Speaker 1: and I wasn't a huge fan. I know it's a

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Speaker 1: hot take, but it was like a personal thing. So

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, I'm like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how I'm gonna feel about Perfect Blue. And then we

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Speaker 1: watched it to talk about it with you guys, and

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Speaker 1: it definitely exceeded my expectations. For sure.

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Speaker 3: Oh cool.

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Speaker 1: I liked it much more than Millennium Actress. But it

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Speaker 1: certainly certainly left an imprint.

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Speaker 3: It'll do that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, Caitlin, had you seen this before?

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Speaker 3: I had, because when we covered Black Swan on the podcast, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: this movie comes up in the research quite a bit,

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Speaker 3: and we'll get into it later. But I wanted to

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Speaker 3: watch it and just sort of like compare it to

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Speaker 3: Black Swan, because I mean, the short story here is

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Speaker 3: that Darren Aronofsky was like rumored to have acquired the

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Speaker 3: rights to do an American remake of Perfect Blue. But

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Speaker 3: then he's like, never mind, I didn't get those rights

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Speaker 3: and I didn't do that. And then years later Black

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Speaker 3: Swan comes out and a bunch of people are like,

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Speaker 3: hang on, this movie is very similar to Perfect Blue.

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Speaker 3: Are you sure you didn't And then he's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: it's not even inspired by Perfect Blue, And I just

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Speaker 3: made up this identical story all by myself.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of deep lore about this that we

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Speaker 4: can get into.

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Speaker 3: But I didn't realize.

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Speaker 4: Because I haven't seen Requiem for a Dream. But I

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Speaker 4: think that that movie has even more direct connection also

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Speaker 4: from Perfect Blue, where it's like Aronofsky is a serial

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Speaker 4: offender and like he had actually met Satoshi Khan before

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Speaker 4: and they had this Like I would love to watch

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Speaker 4: a dramatization of this lunch we had that Darren Aronofsky

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Speaker 4: seems to have thought went very well, and Satashi Khan

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Speaker 4: was like he's kind of a clown and had some

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Speaker 4: I think understandable resentments that Aronofsky was this big shot

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Speaker 4: director ripping off his work quite a bit, and Satoshi

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Speaker 4: Khan was struggling as a director. And also just like

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Speaker 4: the I don't know the poetic irony that he passed

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Speaker 4: away the week before Black Swan even came out, so

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Speaker 4: he didn't even get to see it. Like it's very

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Speaker 4: like it's not all about Eve, but it's not not

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Speaker 4: all about you.

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Speaker 3: It's wild. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I haven't seen Requiem for a Dream though, and I

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Speaker 4: don't think I want to.

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Speaker 3: I have seen it many times. I am intimately familiar

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Speaker 3: with that I'm not sure why, because it's not the

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Speaker 3: type of thing that I tend to gravitate toward. But

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Speaker 3: I've seen it a bunch, and the similarities between Perfect

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Speaker 3: Blue and Requiem for a Dream are far more esthetic. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: he's like pulling direct shots slash like animation, the way

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Speaker 3: that a shot is framed.

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Speaker 4: It's just pulling for the storyboards directly, right, pretty much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so he's replicating those for different shots in

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Speaker 3: Requiem for a Dream. The similarities between Perfect Blue and

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Speaker 3: Black Swan are far more like narrative and thematic. So

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Speaker 3: he's just, like, you know, stealing different components of Perfect

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Speaker 3: Blue for various of his movies. I have thought.

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Speaker 4: I don't because I'm not an Aronofsky defender by any means,

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Speaker 4: but I am kind of a Black Swan defender. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's okay, and I do feel like it was meaningfully

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Speaker 4: different enough for me. But I also it's clearly he's

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Speaker 4: pulling from it, and I just wish he had just

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Speaker 4: said that, like the I think the problem was he

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Speaker 4: didn't admit it.

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Speaker 3: I know that's the annoying thing.

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Speaker 4: Because if you admitted it, I think the stories are

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Speaker 4: different enough that, especially if you're a big shot director,

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Speaker 4: why not shout out right someone who you are clearly

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Speaker 4: very influenced by. It almost is it's like an Aronofsky

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Speaker 4: problem versus a black Swan problem.

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Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, no, it's again, it's

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Speaker 3: like this happens all the time, where like a later

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Speaker 3: movie will pay homage to an earlier movie or be

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Speaker 3: influenced by an earlier movie, and it's just a matter

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Speaker 3: of like the creative mind behind the later movie admitting, like, yep,

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Speaker 3: I drew influence from this earlier thing, and then the

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Speaker 3: fact that he refuses to do that Aeronovsky does just don't.

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Speaker 4: Be a white Harvard guy about it, which Aeronofsky struggles with,

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Speaker 4: right right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 5: I saw a YouTube video somebody had translated Satoshi Khan

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Speaker 5: having like sort of mini lectures about Perfect Blue, and

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Speaker 5: he directly talks about Darren Aronofsky and talks about how

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Speaker 5: he pulled like the bath scene, like yes, yeah, it's

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Speaker 5: very specifically pulled the bath scene, the bird's eye view

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Speaker 5: underwater view from Perfect Blue. And he was just sort

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Speaker 5: of laughing at the homage because he said that he

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Speaker 5: asked him about it, and then Darren was like, oh,

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Speaker 5: it's an homage and he's like, oh, I guess I

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Speaker 5: should also do homages to other people like that in

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Speaker 5: my films too, Like.

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Speaker 4: It's so trick. I Yeah, there's a great piece on

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Speaker 4: a substack called animation Obsessive that like broke down the exact.

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Speaker 3: Like, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: The beautiful part of the Internet is someone has always

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Speaker 4: done the work for you. And yeah, the conflicting quotes

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Speaker 4: about because it also seems like Satoshi Khan felt different

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Speaker 4: about it at different points in his life, and that

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Speaker 4: towards the end of his life in particular, he was like, nah,

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Speaker 4: fuck this ooh. Also, I mean as early as the

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Speaker 4: two thousands after he first met Ronowski, he said, I'm

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Speaker 4: feeling pathetic. It's a pitiful tale when the person being

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Speaker 4: paid homage too has less name recognition, less social credibility,

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Speaker 4: and less budget to spend. So it seems like Satoshi

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Speaker 4: Khan's issue was at its core, like why not give

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Speaker 4: me credit? Like if you're so influenced by my work,

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Speaker 4: why can't I get my projects funded? Yeah, and there's

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Speaker 4: culture vulture stuff to be examined there too, we'll.

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Speaker 3: Get back to.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, So we got into the Aeronoski stuff immediately were.

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Speaker 3: So all this to say, I did watch this movie.

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Speaker 3: I think we covered Black Swan back in like twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 3: so that's when I first saw Perfect Blue, and we

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Speaker 3: you know, talk about it a bit on that episode

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Speaker 3: as well, for any listeners who want to go back and.

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Speaker 4: Live at the Bellhouse if I'm remembering right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, yeah, so yeah, but that was my first

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Speaker 3: and kind of only exposure to Perfect Blue, and then

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Speaker 3: rewatched it a couple times to prep for this episode Jamie,

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Speaker 3: what about you? What's your relationship?

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Speaker 4: I hadn't seen it before. Yeah, I think that's the

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Speaker 4: whole story. I have seen Satoshi Khan's last movie, Paprika,

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Speaker 4: because it recently. It must be having like some kind

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Speaker 4: of anniversary or something like that, because it like re

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Speaker 4: released at AMC's recently. I didn't see it there, but

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Speaker 4: it's I don't know, I've just been seeing it around

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Speaker 4: a lot, and so I didn't do a particularly like

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Speaker 4: intense careful view of it.

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Speaker 3: But I saw his last.

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Speaker 4: Movie and I had conflicted feelings about it, and then

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Speaker 4: this is his I believe, his first feature.

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Speaker 3: That I like a lot.

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Speaker 4: I mean, especially from just like an animation perspective. It's

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Speaker 4: so engrossing in a way that, like, I don't know

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Speaker 4: how many movies I've seen at all like that, especially

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Speaker 4: ones that are so short, and the way that he

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Speaker 4: animates the crisis that Memama is having. It, I just

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Speaker 4: have like, never seen anything quite like it. It's amazing

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Speaker 4: story wise. I got some questions that I'm excited to

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Speaker 4: talk to you about.

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Speaker 3: Yes, let's take a quick break and then we'll jump

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Speaker 3: back into the recap and we're back. Oh, we're back.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk about the events of Perfect Blue. Shall wait,

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Speaker 4: It's not complicated at all, Caitlan, I'm sure this was

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Speaker 4: a breeze to put together.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna have a very easy time.

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Speaker 4: Although very short movie. I will say it's like eighty

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Speaker 4: less than I think if you take the credits out,

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Speaker 4: less than eighty minutes long. We're talking space jambling.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's awesome. I love it. I'm delighted. Yeah that

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Speaker 3: it's socior More movies should be seventy seven minutes long. Yes,

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Speaker 3: content warning at the very top for things like sexual violence, rape, stalking, coercion.

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Speaker 3: The story takes place in Tokyo. I believe we open

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Speaker 3: on a performance by a pop girl group called Cham

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Speaker 3: exclamation Point, which has three members, one of whom Mina

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Speaker 3: seems to be the star of the group. She's idolized

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Speaker 3: by the fans. Also at this concert is a security

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Speaker 3: guard man who is leering very creepily at Mima, as

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Speaker 3: well as a group of young troublemaker men, and there's

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Speaker 3: an altercation between them and the creepy security guard.

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Speaker 4: I am curious what you think about, like what level

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Speaker 4: of famous are they because it seems like they're kind

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Speaker 4: of famous, but I can't tell. They're performing at the mall,

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Speaker 4: Like I'm not like, are they maltor famous, which does

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Speaker 4: feel like a very nineties, ye two thousands convention of

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Speaker 4: like they're maltor famous, they're gonna go big time or not?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I did Britney Spears do a mall tour before.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, so like they could be on the

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Speaker 1: way up, because later we're hearing about them charting in

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Speaker 1: the top one hundred. But it's like in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: so I think they're like working their way up the

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Speaker 1: pop ranks.

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Speaker 4: They're paying their damn dues. Yeah, yes, have any of

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Speaker 4: you ever been to a maltar?

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Speaker 3: I mean they don't really happen anymore as far as

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Speaker 3: I know. But like I didn't know that was a thing.

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Speaker 4: So no, I mean neither. Yeah, I feel like I

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Speaker 4: missed out on something. I caught the tail end of it.

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Speaker 4: And in middle school I got to go to a

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Speaker 4: degrassy malteur. Whoa wow, and that was so amazing, and

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Speaker 4: Drake was supposed to be there, but then he did

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Speaker 4: not show up.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 4: So it was just like one of the objectively kind

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Speaker 4: of flop cast members of De Grassy. But my cousin

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Speaker 4: and I were really excited.

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Speaker 1: I would have been thrilled.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing. Oh it's great, Jamie. You and I should

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Speaker 3: do a Bechdel cast mal tour.

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Speaker 4: I honestly, it still does. I feel it's more like

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Speaker 4: outdoor malls, Like sometimes you'll catch like younger musician performing

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Speaker 4: at an outdoor mall. Indoor mall tours are washed though

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Speaker 4: it's a convention of the past.

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Speaker 3: Sure fine, anyway, they're doing a mall tour and intercut

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Speaker 3: with this concert at the mall are I think these

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Speaker 3: are flashback scenes of Mema with her like talent manager

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Speaker 3: team discussing Mima's career. So there's a woman named Rumy

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Speaker 3: who wants Mima to stay in the pop group CHAM,

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Speaker 3: while mister Tatacoro wants Mima to pivot to acting and

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Speaker 3: is trying to land her a part in a TV

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Speaker 3: drama series. So back to the concert, Mima announces that

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Speaker 3: this is her last show with CHAM. The audience is like, no,

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Speaker 3: we love you, don't go, and then someone in the

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Speaker 3: crowd hands her an envelope. It's like fan mail kind

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Speaker 3: of thing. So Mima goes home to her small apartment,

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Speaker 3: she feeds her fish, and she opens the envelope and

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Speaker 3: inside is a letter saying I'm always looking at Mima's room.

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Speaker 3: Here's a link to it. But she doesn't know what

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Speaker 3: that means, and she doesn't know what the internet is,

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Speaker 3: so she just kind of brushes it off.

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Speaker 4: Incredible imagine, I wish, I wish Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then she receives a fax remember fax machines, she

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Speaker 3: has one, and the facts is just like this print

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Speaker 3: out of sort of like ransom note style lettering. It

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Speaker 3: seems that just has the word trader written over and

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Speaker 3: over again. So clearly someone is upset that she left

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Speaker 3: the pop group and they're being very creepy about it.

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Speaker 3: Then we cut to the set of Double Bind, which

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Speaker 3: is the drama sere that Mima has landed a very

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Speaker 3: small role in.

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Speaker 4: Which reminded me of Twin Peaks a little bit. There's

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Speaker 4: like a similar thing that happens in Twin Peaks. There's

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Speaker 4: a I had to look it up, but there's a

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Speaker 4: show within a show called Invitation to Love in Twin Peaks.

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Speaker 3: I forgot about that.

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Speaker 4: I don't know why it clicked for me, but it did.

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Speaker 4: And Twin Peaks was big in Japan.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of cultural exchange going on.

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Speaker 3: Sure, sure, for sure. Yeah. So Mima is playing the

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Speaker 3: younger sister of a woman who was murdered in the show,

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Speaker 3: so that's her character. She's nervous about her performance. She

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Speaker 3: sees that creepy security guard on the set of the show,

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Speaker 3: and then Mima's manager, Guy Tadakoro, opens an envelope that

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Speaker 3: turns out to contain a small explosive and he's injured,

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Speaker 3: and it seems like the envelope was intended for Mima.

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Speaker 3: So things are ramping up and he's kind of like.

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Speaker 4: Ha ha, don't worry about it, right, if that happened

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Speaker 4: in my head, I would not be like, hah, don't

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Speaker 4: worry about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how is it just a prank? That's a straight

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Speaker 1: up threat.

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Speaker 3: He's bleeding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I was like, wow, he really is dedicated to the game.

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Speaker 4: He's like, don't worry about it. It's just a scratch.

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Speaker 3: I'm good tis but a scratch.

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Speaker 5: So much blood on the floor and everything. It's just like, oh,

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Speaker 5: no worries, Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 3: Everyone downplays it.

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Speaker 4: Guess him self esteem man, when you text ha ha.

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Speaker 4: No worries. But there's lots of worries. There's only worries.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I guess.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: That's a lot of this movie.

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Speaker 3: It's just like, yeah right. Roomy also is like, no,

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Speaker 3: don't even worry about it. We definitely shouldn't have called

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Speaker 3: the police. And yeah, Mima's the only one being like,

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Speaker 3: unlikely thing for Ruby to do. Interesting anyway. So a

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Speaker 3: few days later, Rumy comes over to Mima's apartment and

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Speaker 3: sets up a computer with the Internet ever heard of it?

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Speaker 4: For mema fully branded, fully branded, like, here's a Macintosh computer.

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Speaker 4: I think they're using an actual browser that once existed too.

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Speaker 4: I was like, did mac pay to be the scary

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Speaker 4: computer for perfect.

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Speaker 3: Blue maybe maybe interest Anyway, So Mima goes to that

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Speaker 3: link that she saw in the letter for that thing

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Speaker 3: called Mima's Room, and it turns out to be this

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Speaker 3: like blog slash diary thing where someone is writing about

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Speaker 3: Mima's life as if they are her and describing intimate

388
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Speaker 3: details about her life that you would only know if

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Speaker 3: you were a Mima or if you were stalking her.

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Speaker 3: So she's freaked out.

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Speaker 4: For anyone that's ever had a scary paraspoxual experience, I

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Speaker 4: feel like that it's done really well here where she's like, oh,

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Speaker 4: this is so cool.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh wait, there's.

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00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 4: Like yeah, that's that's how that goes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yes. So then we cut to the set of

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Speaker 3: the show Double Bind again, Rumy and Tatakoro have another

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Speaker 3: conversation about Mima and her career. They learn that cham

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Speaker 3: is doing quite well without her, and they now have

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Speaker 3: a song on like the top one hundred list, which

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Speaker 3: they never had when Mima was a part of the group.

402
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Speaker 3: So they're sort of like this, Oh, did Mima do

403
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 3: the right thing? She's maybe having some hashtag ragretes kind

404
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 3: of thing. Though Mima is given a few more lines

405
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Speaker 3: on another episode of this show, so she returns to set.

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Speaker 3: The security guard seems to continue to be stalking her.

407
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 3: He's coming to set, he's videotaping her. Then the writer

408
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 3: of the show, mister Shibuya, writes a scene in which

409
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Speaker 3: Mima's character will be raped on the TV show. Rumy

410
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Speaker 3: doesn't want her to do the rape scene, but Tata

411
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Speaker 3: Quorro says it's important that Mima do this, so Mima

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Speaker 3: agrees to it. That night, on the Metro, Mima gets

413
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Speaker 3: a quick glimpse of her reflection, but it's not her reflection,

414
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Speaker 3: it's a different version of her in her like pop

415
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Speaker 3: girl outfit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is like one of the more obvious black

417
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 4: swan obviously ripped off, like this exact sequence.

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Speaker 3: Yes. Then Mima is back on the set of Double

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Speaker 3: Bind shooting this rape scene and it is brutal. We

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Speaker 3: will talk more about it later, but it's very traumatic

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Speaker 3: for Mima, and the security guard is there watching the

422
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Speaker 3: whole thing. Mima goes home and has a breakdown. She

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00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: also discovers that her fish are dead, and it's like,

424
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 3: did someone kill them or did she just forget to

425
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: feed them again, We're not sure. She sees another vision

426
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 3: of this kind of like alternate version of herself, like

427
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 3: pop Idol Mima, and she's kind of real and kind

428
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 3: not because she's like floating and bouncing around not really

429
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Speaker 3: obeying the laws of gravity. So you're just like, is

430
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Speaker 3: this a hallucination? Is it a real person? We don't

431
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 3: really know. It also becomes clear that the security guard

432
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Speaker 3: is the one posting to Mima's room website and like

433
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Speaker 3: writing this diary under the alias Memania and similar to

434
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 3: the like pop Idle Vision Mima. He thinks it was

435
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 3: a mistake for Mima to leave the music group and

436
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 3: pursue acting. He's furious about it, and he maybe murders

437
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 3: the screenwriter about it, because that guy is brutally killed

438
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: one night, but we don't see who the assailant is.

439
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, but we hear cham yes, yes, cham on the

440
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 4: boombox haunting.

441
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. Again.

442
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 4: It's just like it is so incredible, how seamless it

443
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 4: all kind of comes together of how many different sources

444
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 4: are literally put in words in Mima's mouth, whether it's

445
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: her fans or the screenwriter.

446
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: I mean, at least for him.

447
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 4: It's kind of hard to be like, oh no, the screenwriter,

448
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 4: like he's awful. Yeah, yeah, And who will mourn him.

449
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 4: But there are movies that try to say something simpler

450
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 4: that really bonk you over the head with it.

451
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: But it just is so seamless here for sure. So

452
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 3: then Mima reluctantly participates in a nude photo shoot. Her

453
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 3: photos end up in magazine. The Stocker security guard buys

454
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 3: like all the copies of the magazine so that no

455
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 3: one else can see this version of Mima. He thinks

456
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 3: that she is an impostor, and the real Mima is

457
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 3: this like floating ethereal pop idol Mima. Cut back to

458
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 3: Mima filming scenes of Double Bind, where what's happening in

459
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 3: the show to Mima's character seems to be mimicking what's

460
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 3: happening to Mima in real life, where her character is

461
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 3: seeing things that aren't there and is confused about what's

462
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: real and what's not. And then real Mima sees pop

463
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 3: idle vision Mima again and starts chasing her, almost gets

464
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: hit by a bus or a truck or something.

465
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 4: It should be said. At this point, pop Idle Mima

466
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 4: is wearing the outfit.

467
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 3: Of the movie. Yes, red dress, not quite yet, She's

468
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 3: still We're not at red dress. We're not yet yeah,

469
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 3: there's so many sequels.

470
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 4: Okay, well, buckle in, because I was really dazzled by

471
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 4: the Red Dress. It's so far beyond the point that

472
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 4: I'm like, let's take a moment for.

473
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: The red dress. Yeah, it's currently still the like pink

474
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: and white dress. Yeah, still iconic, but for sure, but

475
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: not quite not the red dress. Right anyway, So there's

476
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: this whole chase sequence. But wait a minute, was it

477
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 3: just a dream? I don't know. Then Mima has a

478
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: conversation with Rumy about her distorted perception of reality. Then

479
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 3: that scene abruptly transitions to Mima back on set shooting

480
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 3: the same scene we just saw her shoot or was

481
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: that a dream? And then Mima's having another conversation with

482
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 3: Rumy and was that a dream? So basically, Mima's grasp

483
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 3: on reality is really falling apart. Cut to the psychiatrist's

484
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: character in Double bind saying that the murderer character in

485
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 3: the show is just an illusion that Mima's character fabricated.

486
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 3: But maybe that illusion found someone to possess and that's

487
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 3: who's killing all of the models in the show. Or

488
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 3: maybe Mima's character has dissociative identity disorder and it was

489
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 3: her committing the crimes when she's a different persona, and

490
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 3: that one such persona is a former pop idol turned

491
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 3: actor working in a drama series, and we're like, wait,

492
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: is that what's happening to Mima in real life?

493
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 4: I had to rewatch that secuence like four times and

494
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 4: I'm still at the end. Was like, huh, we don't know,

495
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 4: and we're not supposed to know. Yeah, I know, but

496
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 4: I was like, I'll figure it out.

497
00:28:53,840 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: No, no, no no. Then another man is brutally murdered,

498
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: I think the photographer who did the nude photo shoot.

499
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, with the iconic lass line, you're a weird pizza guy,

500
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 4: pizza boy, You're a weird pizza boy.

501
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 3: And then curtainstead.

502
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, stab ice pick wow, yes, god you brutal death.

503
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, very basic instinct murder weapon. Anyway, so it seems

504
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: like maybe Mima is the weird pizza boy murderer, or

505
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 3: maybe that was just a delusion because she wakes up

506
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: from a nightmare. But then she also finds bloody clothes

507
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: in her closet, so maybe she is murdering. We don't know.

508
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 3: They finish shooting double bind and at this point Mima

509
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 3: like truly has no idea what's real and what is not.

510
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: Then the security guard abducts Mima. There's another brutal assault

511
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 3: scene the so Mima is able to fight him off

512
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: and get away. But wait, was that real or was

513
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: that a scene that they were shooting for Doublebind? We

514
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: don't know. And then we get a reveal that the

515
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: floating pop Idol vision version of Mima was maybe roomy

516
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 3: this whole time. And this is the Red Dress sequence

517
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 3: right now, we're there, Yeah, a moment for the Red Dress. Yes, yes,

518
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: it seems like maybe Rumy is trying to live vicariously

519
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: through Mima because Rumy is also a former pop idol

520
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 3: something that I didn't really pick up on from watching

521
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 3: the movie, but it's something I kept reading when I

522
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 3: was doing research for this movie. So it's one quick exchange.

523
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: Okay, it's like one line, like when they're initially talking

524
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: about Mema pivoting into becoming an actress. I because I

525
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: think mister Tatacuorro says something about like, oh just because

526
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: like it didn't work out for you or something. It's

527
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: like something along those lines.

528
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, yeah, got it, Like apparently she didn't fit

529
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 5: the beauty standards, and so that's why she ended up

530
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 5: having to quit or stop being an idol.

531
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 4: I see, and that seems and it's like the I

532
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 4: don't know, I'm excited to talk about Roomy. Yes, same,

533
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 4: but this is like super common in entertainment, Like how

534
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 4: painful it has to be to be facilitating this for

535
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 4: other people and knowing all of the shortcomings and still

536
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 4: having to be like, nope, this is great. Great is

537
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 4: business in the world, Like you might find yourself putting

538
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 4: the red dress onto.

539
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: I don't know. Oh yeah. So Roomy attacks Mima. They

540
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 3: start fighting. There's a chase sequence, but also like pop idol,

541
00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 3: Mima is sometimes roomy and she's floating around again, and

542
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 3: we're like, wait, is this real? And it all culminates

543
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: in Roomy impaling herself on shards of glass and then

544
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: nearly being hit by a truck, but Mima pushes her

545
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 3: out of the way and saves her, and then we

546
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: cut to some time later. Both Mima and Rumy have

547
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 3: survived their multiple stab wounds. Mima visits Roumy, who is

548
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: a patient at a psychiatric hospital, fully convinced that she

549
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 3: is a pop idol. Mima, on the other hand, is

550
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: now a famous actor, and the movie ends with her

551
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: looking at herself in the rear view mirror of her

552
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 3: car being like, I'm real because she had overheard like

553
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 3: nurses at the hospital being like, is that the real Mima?

554
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 3: There's no way she would be here, and she's like, no,

555
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 3: I am real.

556
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 4: Wink the end cue amazing credits music. So good.

557
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, So that's the movie. Let's take another

558
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 3: quick break and we'll come back to discuss, and we're back.

559
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 4: We're back, chi kid, Jana, I will'll let you take

560
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 4: the reins here. Where would you like to start? There's

561
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 4: so much to talk about. Where does one begin with?

562
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: Perfectly, Caitlin, I.

563
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 4: Wanted to That was a really good summary given the

564
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: challenge you were up against.

565
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: Yes, I really worked hard on it. It could not

566
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 3: have been easy.

567
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 5: Chef's Kiss, especially the dream part where it was like,

568
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 5: oh wait, is she waking up? Did this happen? And

569
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 5: then again and.

570
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 4: Then every two lines you have to be like or

571
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 4: is it right?

572
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: Or is it It was definitely hard to summarize. But

573
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: there are different scenes in the movie where either like

574
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 3: Rumy or Tadakoro or like I can tell how hard

575
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 3: you tried Mima, and I feel like that. I'm like,

576
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 3: I tried so hard with this recap, so I'm glad

577
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: it went well.

578
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 4: We could start by finishing the conversation we apparently were

579
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 4: very eager to have, which is the Aronofsky. Sure thing, Yeah,

580
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 4: I guess is there anything else that we wanted to

581
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 4: say to that? And I think the thing that stuck

582
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 4: out to me that like I hadn't read about but

583
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 4: it clicks very fast, is like this period of time.

584
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 4: This movie comes out in nineteen ninety seven.

585
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 3: Same year as Titanic and my brother Wow, and so

586
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 3: a lot of incredible debuts this year, but that this

587
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: is a period of time that again I'm referring to

588
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 3: this animation obsessive post that we can link in the

589
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 3: description where there was a lot of movies and film

590
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 3: in the US and Japan about reality fuckery and double

591
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 3: images in a way that I mean, I think this

592
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 3: is like a really strong example that it's someone usually

593
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 3: a white American, borrowing too heavily from another artist.

594
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 4: The example that I didn't know because I just I

595
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 4: am not a huge matrix head, but was how heavily

596
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 4: the witch House Keys were pulling from ghosts in the

597
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 4: Shell when pitching the Matrix, and that the Matrix, while

598
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 4: Ghost in the Shell, I think, did well, but like

599
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 4: the Matrix became this global phenomenon, and there is this

600
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 4: pattern of white American directors I think, really blurring the

601
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 4: line between homage and.

602
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 3: Just lifting stealing.

603
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean everyone's mileage is going to vary their

604
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 4: I don't even know how to feel about it in

605
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 4: certain places, I think narratively, I don't know.

606
00:35:59,360 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 3: I hope that.

607
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 4: I feel like Black Swan is different enough from Perfect Blue,

608
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 4: there are obvious similarities. I think that Aronofsky definitely needed

609
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 4: to acknowledge this influence and even better credit and compensate

610
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 4: Satoshi Khan in some way. Yeah, I think these are

611
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 4: two great movies that I don't know. I can see

612
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 4: that Aernofsky is also pulling from stuff that is not

613
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 4: Perfect Blue and Black Swan.

614
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 3: For example, Swan Lake, he.

615
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 4: Is pulling from pretty heavily that also features dueling images

616
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 4: and personas. Like I think Perfect Blue is a very

617
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 4: very clear, heavy influence, and it was insecure and gross

618
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 4: and disrespectful that he did not properly credit Satoshi Khan

619
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 4: for the influence he had in the work. But I

620
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 4: also don't fully buy that Black Swan's fully ripped off

621
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 4: of Perfect Blue due to the Swan like of it all.

622
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 3: I don't know. Fair Yeah, he basically just like swapped

623
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: out this drama series Double Bind, and he's like, instead

624
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 3: of that, what if Swan Lake?

625
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know, because Perfect Blue is about a

626
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 4: forced career pivot. Yeah, Black Swan is more of a

627
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 4: promotion within a system, true true, which again does feel

628
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 4: like the dynamics of that are pretty different.

629
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: I want to talk about the dynamics in Perfect.

630
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 4: Blue of like this pivot. Yeah, that seems to be

631
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 4: happening basically against her will. I know that she's not

632
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 4: technically a child star. They say that she's twenty one, right,

633
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: but I feel like the dynamics of child stardom are

634
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 4: really present here.

635
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, because it says that she was in She

636
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 3: started in Cham two and a half years ago, so

637
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 3: she would have been you know, like eighteen nineteen, so

638
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 3: she kind of started as like a teen star at

639
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 3: the very least, so very young. Yeah yeah, yeah, just

640
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 3: to provide a little bit more context on the development

641
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: of this movie, and then yeah, we can get into

642
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 3: more theme stuff. So this source material was originally supposed

643
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 3: to be adapted to a live action film. Sotoshi Khan

644
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 3: was approached and he agreed to do it, but there

645
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 3: were funding issues, so the project kept getting like quote

646
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 3: unquote downgraded to animated film, and the idea was that

647
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: Satoshi Kan basically had to make it as a straight

648
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 3: to video animated film. He took the source material and

649
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 3: the first version of the script, which was written by

650
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 3: Sadyuka Marai, and made quite a few changes to it,

651
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 3: but then he and the screenwriter worked together to write

652
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 3: a new script that introduces different things that Satoshi Kan

653
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 3: wanted to play around with, such as the like play

654
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 3: within a play component, the blurred lines between reality and dream.

655
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 3: He wanted to focus more on the main character, Mima's

656
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: inner struggle, things like that, and part of it was

657
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 3: that psychological thrillers were not a mainstream genre in anime

658
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: at the time, so there was like no real precedent

659
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 3: for this story to be adapted to an animated film.

660
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 4: Which is how perhaps a young Chica ends up watching

661
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 4: it by accident.

662
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: It's not what you would expect, it's right, and it

663
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: wasn't expected to do well at all. Everyone thought that

664
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 3: this movie would be immediately forgotten.

665
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 4: Well, and it kind of didn't do well when it

666
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 4: first came out.

667
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 3: No, but then it ended up like screening at various

668
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 3: festivals around the world and it gained a following. There's

669
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 3: some other like interesting distribution stuff, but it's not so

670
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 3: super relevant to our discussion. But yeah, so that's kind

671
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 3: of the context. As we hinted at, there's all these

672
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 3: themes that get explored. There's like things around the pressures

673
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 3: of becoming a celebrity, the pressure to acquiesce to the

674
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 3: demands of powerful entertainment industry people, the idea of like

675
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 3: becoming a commodity to be bought and sold, and.

676
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 4: The idea that like there's like this repeated idea that

677
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 4: Mima should be grateful that this is happening, which is

678
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 4: obviously something we still see all the time, particularly with

679
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 4: young women, like it is critical that she does not acknowledge.

680
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 3: The parts of this that are difficult or.

681
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 4: You're ungrateful, and like again, it's from all of these

682
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 4: different angles. She needs to appease her agents because she should,

683
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 4: Like she says it explicitly at one point, like, well,

684
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 4: they've done so much for me, Like who am I

685
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 4: to push back?

686
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 3: On what they want. Mm hmm.

687
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 4: Same thing with her fans, where they're you know, it's

688
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 4: hard to cross a line more severely than her fans are,

689
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 4: but she has to be grateful for them. And then

690
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 4: there's like a line again that's explicitly like the fans

691
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,479
Speaker 4: know what is best for you and we are going

692
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 4: to which is such a fan mentality. Oh like name

693
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 4: of fandom Where this is not present somewhere, it feels

694
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 4: like it really clearly understands contemporary internet culture, which is wild.

695
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: Yeah for how old it is.

696
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. There's another scene also where it's before the

697
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 3: photo shoot where Memon knows that she'll be photographed nude.

698
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 3: She has locked herself in her dressing room. She seems

699
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 3: very apprehensive about it, and Tadakoro is like pounding on

700
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 3: the door, being like, I thought you decided to go

701
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 3: through with this. Everyone's waiting for you. So just like

702
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: the pressure she feels, people are coercing her, not letting

703
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 3: her change her mind. It's all stuff that again like

704
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 3: still happens to this day. There's a long history of

705
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 3: people in the entertainment industry, particularly people of marginalized genders

706
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 3: and marginalized people in general. Being taken advantage of and

707
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 3: heavily exploited.

708
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 4: And then asked to say thank you.

709
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: Basically yeah, yeah.

710
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 5: I think they even have like after she has to

711
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 5: do the rape scene, they essentially have her go on

712
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 5: this press tour talking about how she wants to be

713
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 5: a serious actress, and they had I think, just prior

714
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 5: to it even happening, Tadakuro is talking about Jodie Foster,

715
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 5: which I was just like, oh yes, oh okay, which

716
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 5: I was just like, I know more of her later work,

717
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 5: but I was like, let me go look back at

718
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 5: like in and around the time Perfect Blue was being made,

719
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 5: and I guess she had won an Oscar for the

720
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 5: Acquired where she was playing a character that ended up

721
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 5: getting raped.

722
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 3: Oh wow, okay, and.

723
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 5: Like the movies about like the legal case behind that

724
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 5: and her like trying to win that, and so it's

725
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 5: just like, oh, okay, there are more cultural ties within

726
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 5: this than I had originally thought of.

727
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 4: I didn't know that specific I thought that was like

728
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 4: referencing the fact that she'd been a child start, but

729
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 4: like that totally makes oh my god, that's brutal.

730
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,240
Speaker 3: I thought it was referencing specifically her character in Taxi

731
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 3: driver where she plays like an underage sex worker.

732
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 4: Right, But yeah, I think I can really only speak

733
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 4: to American culture with any sort of detail. But this

734
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 4: career phase that we're seeing Mima in we see all

735
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 4: the time. We still see now. It's like, what we

736
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 4: see with Mima is how something like this can go

737
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 4: when you don't have proper support. Yeah, you could really

738
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 4: kind of name any Disney or Nickelodeon pipeline child star

739
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 4: to go in quote unquote legit as a young adult

740
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 4: as an example of this. And sometimes it seems like,

741
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 4: again we just don't know. It seems like the young

742
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 4: actor has the support. Familiarly, we don't really see Mima's family.

743
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 4: She references them once and she's like, they probably won't

744
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 4: like seeing me get sexually assaulted on TV, but whatever,

745
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 4: Like her family is not engaged.

746
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seemed like when she was originally doing the pivot,

747
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 1: the career pivot, it seems like she was excited about acting,

748
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: like this new prospect of it, and she has that

749
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: phone call with her mother, and her mom's essentially like

750
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: putting all of that down, like guilting her about not

751
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 1: being a singer, saying how the whole family was waiting

752
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: on the next single and saying that's singing is what

753
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: you do best. So it almost feels like even if

754
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: she wanted to lean on her family for support, like

755
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: maybe she wouldn't get it because it's like, oh, well,

756
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: you made this choice. Now these are the consequences. You know.

757
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: It feels like she might get that kind of response.

758
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

759
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, like her just trying to I feel like her

760
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 5: becoming an idol was an uphill battle, and so now

761
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 5: her wanting to do something else, it's just like, but

762
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 5: we're used to you being an idol. Now we actually

763
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 5: like it now, like why would you change? And you know,

764
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 5: it's good to want to change, but then it's also

765
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 5: just as good to have people be able to accept

766
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 5: different versions of you.

767
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

768
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 5: I also want to just note really quickly before any

769
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 5: of the listeners like read me the Riot Act the

770
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 5: Jodie Foster film is the accused. It's not the acquired.

771
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 3: My bad. Okay, Okay, you're fine, you're fine. We didn't

772
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: know what existed, you're goodding, Yeah, didn't know the difference.

773
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 4: I think this was like what struck me?

774
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 3: Well, what do you think?

775
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 4: Like it seems like Mima prefers to be a pop

776
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 4: idol to being a serious actress. But the more the

777
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 4: movie went on, I'm like, we never really hear her

778
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 4: explicitly state what she wants exactly. Yeah, we hear that

779
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 4: her family and obviously her fans and Roomy want her

780
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 4: to be a pop idol, and they have their reasons,

781
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 4: and that her agent and the director it's they want

782
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 4: her to be an actress. We don't really know, like

783
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 4: we can guess what Mima wants, but she's very young.

784
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 4: She's so like understandably sort of like pulling her hair

785
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,959
Speaker 4: out over wanting to please everyone in an industry where

786
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 4: that's completely impossible. And I just it made me so

787
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 4: sad because like, I don't who knows what she wants.

788
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 3: She probably doesn't know she exactly. Like she's still young

789
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 3: enough to be quite impressionable and not that young people

790
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: and you know, early twenties people can't have autonomy, but

791
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 3: like she is in a juncture in her life and

792
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 3: career where she thinks she needs to be listening to

793
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 3: the people who have more power and experience than her.

794
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 4: Right, Like her entire adult life has been defined by

795
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 4: trying to please everyone, which is like obviously like a

796
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 4: super common experience, just rarely at this level. I do

797
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 4: like that they don't make her super super famous though,

798
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 4: because I do think that that makes her uniquely vulnerable, right,

799
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 4: because she does have these fans that she feels still

800
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 4: kind of accessible to, because she's still performing at the mall,

801
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 4: she still has her own shopping, she's still like she

802
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: lives in like a pretty normal looking apartment.

803
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, a studio apartment question Mark.

804
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, I mean, but that's I can see that

805
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 4: being true. There's I mean, pop groups of the nineties

806
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 4: didn't make money at first. It was usually like their

807
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 4: managers that made money. Yeah, So it's like she's kind

808
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 4: of living a normal life, but also she's not and

809
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 4: there's no one protecting her. It's like a very kind

810
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 4: of scary level of notoriety to be at.

811
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 5: It seems like, Yeah, it made me feel more critical

812
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 5: of like that kind of pop star to sex symbol

813
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 5: transition that a lot of musicians like go through all

814
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 5: of the time. I know, especially like the Disney Stars.

815
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 5: It's like, Okay, they did Disney and then it's like, Okay,

816
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 5: I'm breaking out. I'm grown now, so I'm either going

817
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 5: to put out like more sexually charged music or maybe

818
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 5: they will pivot into acting and doing very serious roles.

819
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 5: But I never thought that. I think I was just

820
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 5: under the impression that was something that they wanted. I

821
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 5: never thought that maybe that transition itself could be manufactured

822
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 5: for the benefit of other people.

823
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 3: Well, I got the impression, and maybe this is just

824
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 3: kind of like my head canon, but that it wasn't

825
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 3: Mima's idea at all to leave the group and pivot

826
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 3: to acting. It's what her managers and specifically mister Tadakoro

827
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: thought it was best because there's different conversations about how,

828
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 3: you know, pop idols are not taken seriously. And then

829
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 3: like the gap that my mind filled in is, oh,

830
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 3: probably because it's a medium of entertainment that tends to

831
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 3: appeal to people of marginalized genders and sexualities girls, so

832
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 3: she has to become a quote unquote serious actress doing

833
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 3: dramatic roles.

834
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like he's just trying to like flesh

835
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 4: out his like roster. And also it's so bizarre how

836
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 4: many times he's like, well, girl groups aren't serious, one

837
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 4: of the two remaining members of.

838
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 3: The girl group. Yeah, yeah, right, But the idea is

839
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 3: that also that pop stars at least at the level

840
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 3: that they're at, and as we see evidenced by the

841
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 3: studio apartment that Mima lives in, like, they don't make

842
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 3: much money, but actors make more money. So it seems

843
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: like part of Tadacoro's motivation for wanting Mema to pivot

844
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 3: to acting is so that he can exploit her more

845
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 3: and make more money off of her. And it goes

846
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 3: back to the whole like commodifying human beings thing. And

847
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 3: there's all these scenes where they are talking about Mema

848
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: as if she is a commodity. Sometimes Mima will be

849
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 3: in the room, sometimes she's not there, but either way,

850
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 3: they're never treating her like a person. They're never considering

851
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 3: her feelings and her comfort level and what she wants.

852
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 3: They're just like, and then we're doing this for you,

853
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 3: and then we landed you this role and you are

854
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 3: quitting the group and did it. All this stuff it's

855
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: just again very endble of what happens a lot in

856
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 3: real life.

857
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 4: And Mima, like, I think of like a scene that

858
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 4: the towards the very beginning with Rumy and Tatacuoro, where

859
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 4: you know, I think that we are sort of led

860
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 4: to believe I mean intentionally by the movie that Rumy

861
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 4: has more what's in Mima's best interest? She you know,

862
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 4: a broken clock is right twice a day, where you know,

863
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 4: I agree with Rumy. When Rumy is like, you shouldn't

864
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 4: have to be in this really exploitive rape scene if

865
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 4: you are not completely comfortable with it, which Mima is not,

866
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 4: but she is afraid to say so. Rumy tries to

867
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 4: give her the opportunity to bow out of it. But

868
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 4: the reason she does that has to do with her.

869
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to do with Mema and so. But

870
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 4: just anyways, that scene at the beginning where Mima is

871
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 4: just sitting there and like passively listening to them argue

872
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 4: over her future, like that's normal for her, That's It's like,

873
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 4: clearly that is just the dynamic that she has been

874
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 4: conditioned to feel like she should be grateful to have

875
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 4: in the first place.

876
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 3: I just I love her.

877
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: I know.

878
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 3: I want to talk more about the rape scene, and

879
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 3: again we'll place another content warning here because it is long,

880
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 3: it's brutal. It being animated does not make it any

881
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 3: less hard to watch. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on this,

882
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 3: but to me, there was a troubling kind of visual

883
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: juxtaposition of on one hand, it's clear how horrific this

884
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 3: is for Mima, and as you're watching it, you're often

885
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 3: forgetting it's a staged scene that they're filming for TV.

886
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: Oftentimes you're just like, oh, this feels like an actual

887
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 3: rape that I'm watching, So it's it's really traumatic and brutal.

888
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, the way it's like quote

889
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: unquote shot slash animated is in a way that is

890
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 3: similar to how a lot of porn is shot. Like

891
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 3: it seems to be reveling in the in the sexual violence,

892
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 3: but like this emphasis on the sexual the like you know,

893
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 3: it's almost presented in a way that it's like this

894
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 3: is sexy, right, Like the way it's framed Again, is

895
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 3: this weird juxtaposition between like this is horrific, but also

896
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 3: like look at how like I don't know, I don't

897
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 3: know if I'm making sense. Yeah, no, it's it's I

898
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 3: don't like it. I don't like it.

899
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, me neither.

900
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 3: It feels very exploitative to me.

901
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 4: It was the case of like attempting to comment on

902
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 4: the thing, but then just kind of doing it right. Yeah,

903
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 4: I didn't think that there was the commentary around that

904
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 4: was not meaningful enough. I don't know if there is

905
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 4: any Maybe that's my hot take.

906
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: It's like, I don't know if.

907
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 4: There's really any explanation of staging a sequence like that,

908
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 4: even an animation where it is making meaningful commentary enough

909
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 4: to justify it happening.

910
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 3: I just don't think that's true.

911
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 4: And I always especially side eye it when it's like

912
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 4: men men, men at the top, I'm like, yeah.

913
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 3: Well, where the fuck do you get off?

914
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, I just didn't.

915
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 3: I didn't like it. I didn't think it said anything.

916
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very much with you on that. I think

917
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: something that, at least for me, made it. We know

918
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: it's fake, we know it's staged and it's acting. I'm

919
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: doing air quotes for people who can't see. Yeah, but

920
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: I think the reason why it feels so real is

921
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: because we know that she's uncomfortable filming it, so it

922
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: may as well be real. The fact that it goes

923
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: on for so long and it's like, you know, she's

924
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: just so she eating to cope like that is that

925
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 1: is real. That is real trauma happening to this person,

926
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 1: and we're experiencing it too, And also, like Jamie was saying,

927
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: just knowing like men made this scene is also I like,

928
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: I feel violated a little bit watching that as a woman,

929
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: you know, mm hmm.

930
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 5: I was also very uncomfortable, and I was just kind

931
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 5: of like, when is it in?

932
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 3: Like okay, yeah, yeah, when does it? It's so long?

933
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 5: Once the light went out of her eye, I'm just like,

934
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 5: I think it's done.

935
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 3: We get it.

936
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, the point was made. The point was made.

937
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,720
Speaker 1: Like I I literally had tears in my eyes watching

938
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: that scene, and it took me off guard to be like,

939
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: oh I'm crying like that. It really affected me.

940
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

941
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 4: The one thing that I will say is that that

942
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 4: sequence made me at least grateful that this was not

943
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 4: adapted into live action.

944
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

945
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 4: Right, But that's about all I can say for it,

946
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 4: I think.

947
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and to your point, Jamie, I did consider, like, well,

948
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 3: this is a show within a movie, so perhaps it

949
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 3: is the movie perfect Blue commenting on the way that

950
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 3: other media tends to, you know, like glamorize, slash, pornografy rape,

951
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 3: or if it's just the movie also doing that. And

952
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 3: I did read that Satashi Khan made the like, you know,

953
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 3: show within the movie Double Bind as a sort of

954
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:37,879
Speaker 3: like parody, like his intention was to criticize Japanese TV

955
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 3: dramas that tend to like imitate Hollywood fads and tropes,

956
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 3: and that he was aware of movies like Basic Instinct

957
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 3: and Silence of the Lambs and things like that. Well sure,

958
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 3: but again it's also the movie still showing this very exploitative,

959
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 3: very again pornografied rape scene. And I'm not saying this

960
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 3: to like disporn inherently, but just the way that like,

961
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 3: again I'm not articulating myself. Well, but you're watching the

962
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 3: scene and you're just like, oh, why are her like

963
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 3: titties bouncing so pornographically? Yeah? Right, and why does the

964
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 3: murder sound like sex? Yeah? Sorry, you know what I mean.

965
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 4: It's just, yeah, I don't think that he because we.

966
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 3: All know what he's referencing. Mm hmm.

967
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 4: But at some point it's just like, I don't really

968
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 4: care what men think of that scene in general. Yeah, yes,

969
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that men. Obviously, I have people of

970
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 4: all genders are affected by this, but in general, I'm

971
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 4: not really interested in what straight men think about that scene.

972
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 4: I do hope that it would make them uncomfortable, and

973
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 4: I wonder if that is like more what Stashi Kam

974
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 4: was going for is to take who would normally be

975
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 4: the intended audience for stuff like that and really make

976
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 4: them sit and consider, well, what if the actor performing

977
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 4: this didn't want to do it? And maybe that was

978
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 4: more where his head is at. But as someone who

979
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 4: like that content is not made for me and I

980
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 4: don't like it, I felt like punished and really made

981
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 4: uncomfortable by it.

982
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I'll say that in the lecture series that

983
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 5: I like saw about it, which it's like, I'm glad

984
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 5: I watched it just because it provided me with more

985
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 5: context on this, and I think that's the thing, like

986
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 5: I had to watch this on streaming essentially, but we

987
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 5: don't get access to like, you know, those DVD extras

988
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 5: of like people talking about the scenes or talking about

989
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 5: stuff like that. But when he was talking about the

990
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 5: rape scene, he said, he said he went too far,

991
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 5: and that when he was making Perfect Blue, he was

992
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 5: not under the impression that it was going to be

993
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 5: like widely released. He thought it was going to be

994
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 5: like a home released type of thing, and so when

995
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 5: he saw the scene and it's like on a theater

996
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 5: side screen, he was like uncomfortable with it. Yeah, And

997
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 5: he essentially was saying that the rape scene itself was

998
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 5: like the death of her pop idol persona, which is

999
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 5: why like when she ends up being in like the

1000
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 5: dressing room and she's wearing all black and stuff, because

1001
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 5: she's mourning that version of herself like before it happened.

1002
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 5: And so I was just like, oh, okay, well, I'm

1003
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 5: glad you were uncomfortable because so was that right?

1004
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: We appreciate a self aware king.

1005
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:55,959
Speaker 4: I do appreciate that he I mean, I wish more

1006
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 4: directors were willing to like interact because it's like, you know,

1007
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 4: it doesn't excuse it.

1008
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 3: But the nineties, I mean, that's.

1009
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 4: A lot of what he's referencing, Like erotic thrillers in

1010
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 4: the eighties and nineties were.

1011
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 3: Full of shit like this.

1012
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 4: I am interested that about because I hadn't I hadn't

1013
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 4: seen that quote, and I guess something that I don't

1014
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 4: quite know. I'm just curious what you all think, because

1015
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 4: I was like, eh, am, I okay. There feels like

1016
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 4: there's sort of this more conservative idea than most of

1017
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 4: this movie holds up, that her being sexually assaulted in

1018
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 4: reality or on screen means that she is permanently damaged.

1019
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 4: Good the idea that once something horrific has happened to

1020
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 4: you that was completely out of your control, you can

1021
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 4: no longer sing pop music, question work. I just find

1022
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 4: that to be a very weirdly patriarchal idea that it

1023
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 4: doesn't feel like the movie's really pushing back on. I

1024
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 4: don't know, because it's obviously like I'm a survivor of

1025
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 4: it myself. It certainly changes your life in many many ways,

1026
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 4: but I don't really like the implication that it means

1027
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 4: that you cannot return to your passions or and you

1028
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 4: have a total and permanent loss of self, because I

1029
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 4: just don't think that's true. I was sort of like,

1030
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 4: maybe I'm overly projecting, but it didn't feel like that

1031
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 4: idea was pushed back on very much.

1032
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this on different episodes,

1033
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 3: and it's almost always media written and directed by men,

1034
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 3: where there will be someone, usually a woman, who is

1035
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 3: a survivor of sexual assault, and that is her defining

1036
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 3: trait as a character. That's kind of the only thing

1037
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 3: we know about her, that's what's motivating her every choice,

1038
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 3: and that is obviously not true for survivors of sexual

1039
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 3: assault in real life. But there's just this tendency to

1040
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 3: like revel in sexual violence, and that manifests in different ways.

1041
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 3: It manifests how a rape seem will be framed, It

1042
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 3: manifests how a survivor will be characterized. But it's just, yeah,

1043
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 3: it's a lot of men not knowing how this actually

1044
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 3: manifests for real survivors.

1045
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 5: Definitely. I think there's just also this overall idea of

1046
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 5: Mema trying to find out who she is, but it's like,

1047
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 5: who is Mima without the male gaze. At one point,

1048
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 5: she's this pop idol and she's put on this pedestal

1049
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 5: by her fans, which are mostly like men. Then she's

1050
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 5: doing this TV series Double Bind, and she is now

1051
01:02:55,640 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 5: following this script by this man where if she's leading

1052
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 5: her pop girl image, if she wants to be taken seriously,

1053
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 5: then I'll add a rape scene and she has to

1054
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 5: access out and then even when the scene was happening,

1055
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 5: So so she kind of had mentioned the fact that

1056
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 5: it's also a commentary sort of on like the amount

1057
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 5: of spectators that come, because I guess this was I mean,

1058
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 5: since it's in the nineties, I don't know if intimacy

1059
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 5: coordinators existed in the nineties, Nah, I did not, But

1060
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 5: it's like pre intimacy coordinators, pre security because who are

1061
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,479
Speaker 5: all of these random people that are not normally there?

1062
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 5: That's not like Crewe and.

1063
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 3: The one security guard is is her number one stalker?

1064
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And that part felt like intentional commentary, But

1065
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 4: again it's like, if that's his intentional commentary, that still

1066
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 4: doesn't justify showing a long exploitative rape.

1067
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, scene.

1068
01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm glad we're all on the same page about

1069
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 4: that because I was, like I was, but it's such

1070
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 4: a good movie, and also that happens in it, right,

1071
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 4: This kind of switches focus to Roomy a little bit.

1072
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 4: I'm curious what everyone thinks about Roomy, because again, I

1073
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 4: think it was kind of a mixed bag for me,

1074
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 4: where I think that there is some interesting commentary going

1075
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 4: on with Rumy, but I also feel like there are

1076
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 4: some tropes at play because.

1077
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 3: We don't really know her well enough.

1078
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 4: We get like that little information that she had briefly

1079
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 4: been a pop idol or she was aspiring to be bigger,

1080
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 4: and then Tadakuoro just basically says it didn't work out

1081
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 4: for you, But it's implied that it has to do

1082
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 4: with her looks and her body type, and that she's

1083
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 4: almost trying to like live out this dream she couldn't

1084
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 4: have through Mima.

1085
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 3: I don't know, how do we feel?

1086
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: I was confused about the direction they took Roomy because like,

1087
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 1: it's an interesting twist for sure to be like, oh,

1088
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: like Rumy's jealous of her. I think the hardest left

1089
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 1: for me is I think they heavily implied, because you

1090
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: know they're doing the double bind, has this plot an

1091
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: idea going on, and it's also being mimicked by real life.

1092
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 1: Is it determined at the end when Rumy is in

1093
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: the mental hospital that she has the ID. I don't

1094
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: because I think that's heavily implied. I think it's implied, Okay,

1095
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: because that really bothers me. Yes, I like that's something

1096
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: we talk about on the show a lot.

1097
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 4: Is like, Yeah, obviously you don't want to say mental

1098
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 4: illness in film is off limits, but if you're doing

1099
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 4: something like this, do not attribute it to a specific

1100
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 4: mental illness.

1101
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 3: Yes.

1102
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 4: I think the ultimate example of that for me is

1103
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 4: the opening sequence of Midsommar, and at the end they're

1104
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 4: like bipolar and you're.

1105
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 3: Like, no, all right, No.

1106
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 4: I wasn't sure if that was suggested in I mean,

1107
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 4: I was confused.

1108
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 3: It's a confusing movie.

1109
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 4: I didn't know if that was happening in the text

1110
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 4: of the TV show because TV shows do that all

1111
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 4: the time and it was commentary, or if they were

1112
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 4: just saying that this is how did manifests.

1113
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 3: Or if this scene where Mima is going to visit

1114
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 3: Roomy at this hospital, if that's just another figment of

1115
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 3: Mima's imagination and this is her kind of compartmentalizing that

1116
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 3: persona or like, we don't know, especially with the little

1117
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 3: like wink and nod at the end where Mima looks

1118
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 3: in the mirror and she's like I'm real and it's like.

1119
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 5: But are you?

1120
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 4: We don't know.

1121
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 3: But either way, there is certainly, I think a demonization

1122
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 3: of mental illness and specifically of dissociative identity disorder, and

1123
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 3: it's implying that if you have this, you're going to murder.

1124
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think like they had said something about like

1125
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 1: sometimes the regular Roomy comes back and then like sometimes

1126
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: she's someone else. I thought that they had said something

1127
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,080
Speaker 1: like that towards the end which it really implies the

1128
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: DD thing. Yeah right, I know, like back then there

1129
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 1: was more of a misunderstanding on the disorder and so

1130
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 1: people were using it as like plot points.

1131
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 3: Oh but it's I mean, I'm not.

1132
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 1: At all excusing that because it's equally frustrating, but yeah,

1133
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: I didn't like the usage of that at all.

1134
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 5: It made me think of because I think that was

1135
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 5: also just before the film came out, like when Selena

1136
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 5: was murdered.

1137
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,080
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I thought that as well.

1138
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 5: Like I haven't seen any quotes from him, being like

1139
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 5: I saw that and then I decided Rumy is going

1140
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 5: to partially be inspired by.

1141
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 3: I like Yolanda Salzavar, I thought that too.

1142
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, I don't like how they kind of

1143
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 5: demonize mental illness and stuff, and like, of course we

1144
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 5: don't get to see a trial or anything like that.

1145
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 5: But then it's just like, okay, well there was mister Shibuya,

1146
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 5: there was Tata Korro, there was the me Mania guy, Like.

1147
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 3: Right, what was going on there? I also think in

1148
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 3: regards to Rumy's character, that there is fat phobia in

1149
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:17,640
Speaker 3: that she is a little thicker than your typical, you know,

1150
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 3: beauty standard super thin woman.

1151
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 4: And it's implied that that's part of why she wasn't successful, right, yeah,

1152
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 4: which is a.

1153
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 3: Thing that happens, but that this has led to this

1154
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 3: deep murderous resentment and the fact that she's the only

1155
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 3: you know, female character who has a bigger body, and

1156
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 3: that she's this delusional, resentful killer.

1157
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 4: I didn't like that trace at all. And also just

1158
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 4: that her stalker, who's the security guard, is physically othered

1159
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 4: in a way that feels like it's telegraphing, like well,

1160
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 4: because he is not conventionally like western beauty standards handsome,

1161
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 4: of course he would do this Like there is just

1162
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:01,800
Speaker 4: that you know that hmm. Some we've seen in villains

1163
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 4: from time immemorial of physically uthering someone as a shorthand

1164
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 4: to say like, don't trust this person, and they're trying

1165
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 4: to hurt the beautiful, virginal young woman.

1166
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:18,839
Speaker 3: It's like hundreds of thousands of movies.

1167
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 4: But it's again, there's just like these really basic othering

1168
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 4: tropes that this movie is not above including.

1169
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 3: So the young men who are causing trouble at the

1170
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 3: concert at the very beginning, the main instigator of this

1171
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 3: trouble making is a darker skinned person has hair that

1172
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 3: looks kind of like dreadlocks. It seems like it might

1173
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 3: be a black character. And I don't know a lot

1174
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:52,680
Speaker 3: about anti black racism in Japan specifically, but I do

1175
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 3: know that it exists everywhere around the world, and it

1176
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 3: just feels like a very racist choice for the one

1177
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 3: or at least dark skinned character to be this like violent. Yeah,

1178
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,960
Speaker 3: he's you know, punching people, he's threatening people in the crowd.

1179
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,440
Speaker 3: It feels like it's just playing into very racist tropes.

1180
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, and throwing things on stage two. Yeah, which people

1181
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 5: are doing that came back. I don't know why they

1182
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 5: are doing that again now.

1183
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, like we whipping bottles at puffsters.

1184
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 3: Or cell phones. Yeah.

1185
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 5: But yeah, and then he was the he was Memnia's

1186
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:32,759
Speaker 5: first victim too, I believe.

1187
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so subtle, but there's just like a little

1188
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 3: like poster somewhere and it's implying that that young man

1189
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:45,639
Speaker 3: is like missing or maybe has been murdered. But yeah,

1190
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 3: that happens off screen, but we do see this like

1191
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 3: image of that young guy as if he has been

1192
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 3: abducted or murdered. Yeah. Another thing was and again not

1193
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:02,919
Speaker 3: clear if this is the movie. Commenting on media tropes,

1194
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:06,040
Speaker 3: or if it's just the movie doing the trope or

1195
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 3: a little bit of both. But the TV drama series

1196
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 3: that Mima gets cast in, Mima plays a character whose

1197
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 3: older sister has been murdered, and in one of the

1198
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:22,160
Speaker 3: episodes we learn that the sister was murdered by this

1199
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 3: I don't know if it was a serial killer or what,

1200
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 3: but someone who kills women and peels off their skin

1201
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 3: because he wants to wear it in order to become

1202
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 3: a woman, or at least that's what the psychiatrist's character speculates.

1203
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:41,320
Speaker 3: And it's the whole, you know, transphobic silence of the

1204
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:45,880
Speaker 3: Lambs storyline, where a person who was assigned male at

1205
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:51,640
Speaker 3: birth murders cis women to wear their skin and become

1206
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:54,680
Speaker 3: a woman. Again, we don't know if it's just like

1207
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:59,519
Speaker 3: that's almost satire in the movies, like commenting on this trope,

1208
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 3: or it's just doing the trope, but it's certainly there.

1209
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is maybe too hard of a line,

1210
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 4: but like I feel like if you cannot discern that answer,

1211
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 4: then it's you're just doing the trope.

1212
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:13,520
Speaker 3: It's not effective.

1213
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking. I'm like,

1214
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 1: if we have to think that hard and look into

1215
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 1: the tiniest crack to figure out if it's satire or not.

1216
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:24,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's really effective satire.

1217
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 4: Right sure, Like effective satire can be surprising and like

1218
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 4: horrifying and clear like all at once.

1219
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1220
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:36,640
Speaker 4: Again, It's like this movie is in conversation with so

1221
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,679
Speaker 4: much that happens before and after in media, where it's

1222
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 4: hard not to think about Silence of the Lambs when

1223
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 4: that idea is introduced, right, because that was like the

1224
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:49,639
Speaker 4: not that it was the only that was the movie,

1225
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 4: the Prestige movie that came out just a couple of

1226
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:54,160
Speaker 4: years earlier that used that same plot point. But if

1227
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 4: it's a reference, it's not being subverted or commented on,

1228
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 4: So it's just almost being like, there, remember Silence of

1229
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:02,759
Speaker 4: the Lambs.

1230
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: Did you like it?

1231
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 4: Like I don't know what the yeah, which just feels

1232
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:09,479
Speaker 4: covertly transphobic.

1233
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 3: And just like, yeah, nasty stuff. Yeah, for sure. Does

1234
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 3: anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about?

1235
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 5: I would say, well, this has definitely happened after the fact.

1236
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 5: But like when it comes to idols either being harmed

1237
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 5: by their fans or killed by their fans, I could

1238
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 5: say that one case is like Christina Grimmy. She was

1239
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 5: a singer that got big because of the voice, and

1240
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 5: then one of her fans killed her at one of

1241
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 5: her autograph signings, and that was in June twenty sixteen.

1242
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:49,760
Speaker 5: But then the month prior in Japan, there was a

1243
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 5: jay idol I guess singer actress. Her name's Mayutomita, and

1244
01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:00,280
Speaker 5: her stalker found out where she lived and then ended

1245
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:04,799
Speaker 5: up stabbing her multiple times because she had returned gifts

1246
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 5: I guess expensive gifts that he had.

1247
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 3: Bought for her.

1248
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 5: And because of that particular case, Japan had to revise

1249
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:18,920
Speaker 5: their anti stocking laws to include online threats, which I thought, I.

1250
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:22,200
Speaker 4: Thought that a woman has to die to get laws

1251
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 4: like this changed, almost without fail.

1252
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:26,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I know Christina did.

1253
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 3: But Mayu.

1254
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:30,639
Speaker 5: I think Mayo is still alive and she was able

1255
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 5: to I think she also sued the government as well.

1256
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 5: So it's like, but the fact that online threats only

1257
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 5: just got added to their anti stocking laws in May

1258
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen is a lot.

1259
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 3: It's absurd.

1260
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:51,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like I also think about the attack at

1261
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 4: the Ariana Grande concert around that same sort of period

1262
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:57,240
Speaker 4: of time as well, Like, yeah, I think like, ultimately

1263
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 4: this movie needs to be called out for parts of

1264
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:04,000
Speaker 4: it that are dated, unclear, and more it seems like

1265
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:07,719
Speaker 4: shock than commentary. But what I do think this movie

1266
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 4: encapsulates well, although it is still clearly I don't know,

1267
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 4: at no point was I like, was this written by

1268
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:18,160
Speaker 4: a woman? Like it obviously isn't, But I do think

1269
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:22,880
Speaker 4: it kind of encapsulates the feeling of not belonging to

1270
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 4: yourself very clearly in a way that is like very.

1271
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:30,720
Speaker 3: Rooted in pop culture globally.

1272
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,759
Speaker 4: Of like there's just no part of Mima that belongs

1273
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,519
Speaker 4: to herself, and it seems like at least, at very

1274
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:39,480
Speaker 4: least all of the creatives for all of these missteps

1275
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 4: is very aware of that and presenting that as a

1276
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:48,919
Speaker 4: horror scenario. That's what really works about this movie, totally

1277
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 4: showing this experience of her just not even having a

1278
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 4: moment to be like who am I? What do I want?

1279
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:58,280
Speaker 4: You know, that's not a possibility for her, And at

1280
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:04,000
Speaker 4: the end, like it could be scene as like kind

1281
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:06,719
Speaker 4: of eerie ending, But I find it very sad because

1282
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 4: if she is real, this is someone who's just like

1283
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 4: all she's done is fulfilled.

1284
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 3: What Tadakora wanted for her.

1285
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:19,640
Speaker 4: We still don't know that she's doing something that she

1286
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:20,800
Speaker 4: feels fulfilled by.

1287
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 3: We just note the victory is supposed.

1288
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 4: To be surviving the experience, right, and that's really depressing.

1289
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is bleak, but no, it's very astute commentary.

1290
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:36,000
Speaker 3: Any other final thoughts.

1291
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 4: We made it, We did it. We made it.

1292
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, we made it. I'm just like we can all

1293
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 1: take a deep breath.

1294
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 4: This movie does pass the Vactel class. Not in particularly

1295
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 4: pleasant ways, but it does.

1296
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is you know, Mima talking to her

1297
01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:55,600
Speaker 3: mom about Mima's career, Mima talking to the actress that

1298
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:59,640
Speaker 3: she's in Double Bind with, and their scenes in the

1299
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:03,680
Speaker 3: show Double Bind also pass the Bechdel test. So it's

1300
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:05,600
Speaker 3: a pass within a pass.

1301
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 4: So in a way it was a feminist no yea, yeah,

1302
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 4: it does pass quite a bit.

1303
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 3: And then obviously Mima and Rumy talk. But does the

1304
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 3: whole sequence where Rumy is trying to stab Mima at

1305
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 3: the end, does that pass the Bechdel test? You could

1306
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:29,639
Speaker 3: argue yes, because stabbing attempts are a form of communication.

1307
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 4: It counts.

1308
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 3: It's feminists, no notes, it counts to rate the movie

1309
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:40,519
Speaker 3: on the Bechdel cast nipple scale, where we rate it

1310
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 3: zero to five nipples. Examining the movie through an intersectional

1311
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 3: feminist lens, Well, now we're in a pickle. We are

1312
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 3: in a pickle. Yeah, because again, there there's a lot

1313
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 3: of themes that this movie explores very effectively, as far

1314
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 3: as the commodification of celebrities and especially the way that

1315
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 3: young women are heavily exploited. Of course, this extends to

1316
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:13,679
Speaker 3: marginalize people in general, and of course there are like Cis,

1317
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 3: white men who are deeply exploited by the entertainment industry.

1318
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:23,920
Speaker 3: But it seems as though the like primary survivors of

1319
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:25,759
Speaker 3: this tend to be marginalized people.

1320
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,240
Speaker 4: I mean, it is. It doesn't seem it is.

1321
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:32,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. It is. So the commentary and examination

1322
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:37,679
Speaker 3: of that and just again the pressure. I just kept

1323
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 3: thinking about, how like there's this through line of against

1324
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:45,759
Speaker 3: something we see in real life all the time, of

1325
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 3: women and other marginalized talent agreeing to something they don't

1326
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:51,759
Speaker 3: want to do because they don't want to be labeled

1327
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 3: as being difficult and then.

1328
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,879
Speaker 4: Being tried to and I think Chica you mentioned this earlier,

1329
01:18:56,920 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 4: but like and then being trotted out to perform can

1330
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 4: retroactively basically as a way of making people feel comfortable.

1331
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 3: Watching the exploitation. Yeah yeah, it's a very quick, kind

1332
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 3: of almost throwaway moment in the movie. But there's a

1333
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:14,680
Speaker 3: quick scene where Mima is on her way into her

1334
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:18,200
Speaker 3: manager's office, and this is after things have started to

1335
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:20,240
Speaker 3: get pretty weird for her, and there's like a group

1336
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:25,520
Speaker 3: of like fanboy men standing outside being like hi, Mima,

1337
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:28,639
Speaker 3: and she walks past them and ignores them, and then

1338
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:31,120
Speaker 3: one of them says like, Oh, why do they become

1339
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 3: so unfriendly when they become actresses? And it just like

1340
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:36,360
Speaker 3: makes you think of all of the you know, like

1341
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:39,839
Speaker 3: celebrities and actors who are women who have been labeled

1342
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:42,639
Speaker 3: as like, Oh I heard so and so is such

1343
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,439
Speaker 3: a bitch, And it's just like, is it that or

1344
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 3: is it a woman responding to constantly being harassed and

1345
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:50,760
Speaker 3: exploited and mistreated.

1346
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 4: We can't retrudge the Chapel Roone discourse, but it comes

1347
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 4: to mind, right, yeah, like requesting personal space makes.

1348
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,719
Speaker 3: You it a bitch a bitch, right right? Establishing boundaries

1349
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 3: makes you a bitch that kind of thing. So all

1350
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 3: of these components and this commentary are really I think

1351
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 3: effectively done in the movie, but then you have all

1352
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:13,559
Speaker 3: of these other moments of like, is it satire or

1353
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:16,679
Speaker 3: is it just playing into the trope? Not clear enough,

1354
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 3: so it's probably just the trope. Again. The way in

1355
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:25,840
Speaker 3: which the brutal rape scene is framed and animated was

1356
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 3: just again so exploitative and unnecessary and horrid. So I

1357
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 3: don't know. I split down the middle two and a

1358
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 3: half nipples. I'll give all of my nipples to the

1359
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:40,679
Speaker 3: red dress.

1360
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:46,759
Speaker 4: At the end, I'm gonna go to baby. I almost

1361
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:49,000
Speaker 4: kind of want to go a little lower, which is tricky, big.

1362
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:52,439
Speaker 4: I mean whatever, This is just the intersectional feminist ranking

1363
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:54,600
Speaker 4: of it, because I do like this movie, and I

1364
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:58,639
Speaker 4: think that there's animation wise, as an animation head.

1365
01:20:58,520 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 3: It's fucking incredible.

1366
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:05,640
Speaker 4: I feel like it captures one dynamic really well and

1367
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 4: then a lot of other dynamics not well at all.

1368
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,840
Speaker 4: But I'll go too, because I do think that this

1369
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 4: movie is acutely aware of the hyper exploitation, the hyper vigilance,

1370
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:22,240
Speaker 4: and was really early to call how internet culture was

1371
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 4: going to factor into fans feeling even more entitled to

1372
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 4: someone's time and body and future. I feel like that

1373
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:33,880
Speaker 4: is you know it's been attempted a lot of times

1374
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:39,800
Speaker 4: and rarely this well, and that that's really special. And

1375
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 4: then there's, like we've talked about for the last hour

1376
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 4: and a half, a lot of things, that this movie

1377
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:49,800
Speaker 4: just really needed more women at the top of the

1378
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:54,280
Speaker 4: creative chain, and that the mistakes this movie made, even

1379
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety seven were largely avoidable because if this

1380
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,479
Speaker 4: creative team could captures so many ideas so clearly, so

1381
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 4: far ahead of everyone else, it's like, almost without fail,

1382
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:10,760
Speaker 4: if you have a couple of women, just more than

1383
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:13,720
Speaker 4: one so they can talk to each other, a lot

1384
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 4: of these things could have potentially been avoided. But I'm

1385
01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:17,920
Speaker 4: gonna give it two. I'm going to give one to

1386
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:22,040
Speaker 4: Mima and I'm going to give one to her fish.

1387
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 4: Her support system, I think that was her support system,

1388
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:26,280
Speaker 4: was unfortunately.

1389
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:30,640
Speaker 3: A jar offish. Oh, and who died? Who died? Yeah,

1390
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 3: leak you hate to see it? How about you, Chica

1391
01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 3: and Gianna?

1392
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:36,599
Speaker 1: Oh, it's hard to find something to say that hasn't

1393
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:38,639
Speaker 1: already been said. To be honest, I'm so very much

1394
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:40,559
Speaker 1: on the same page as you both, because it did

1395
01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:45,519
Speaker 1: accomplish things like commenting on the tropes, but at the

1396
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:48,520
Speaker 1: same time, it was like, are some of it satire?

1397
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:52,439
Speaker 1: But it was also so aware of the toxicity within

1398
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 1: fan culture and portraying that in like an expert way.

1399
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:01,840
Speaker 1: But then there's the mental health aspect that's concerned. And again,

1400
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 1: can't reiterate enough that more women at the top of

1401
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:08,080
Speaker 1: this really could have benefited the beats of those more

1402
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:12,800
Speaker 1: difficult to swallow parts of the movie. So I think

1403
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:14,679
Speaker 1: I'm going to agree with a two and a half.

1404
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:17,799
Speaker 1: But the question is where to give them.

1405
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 3: That's always the question.

1406
01:23:19,439 --> 01:23:22,200
Speaker 1: Oh the remaining members of cham Oh my God, of.

1407
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:27,559
Speaker 4: Course, best of luck to them. Honestly, I kept thinking

1408
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 4: of them as Kelly and Michelle I say three girls,

1409
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 4: I'm like, that's Destiny's child.

1410
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:38,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. I kept as I was watching this movie, being like, hmm,

1411
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:42,160
Speaker 3: this is what would happen if Josie and the Pussycats

1412
01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:46,680
Speaker 3: went way more wrong than it does. Yeah, as far

1413
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 3: as the dynamics of the band go.

1414
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:52,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, I think I would give it three nipples.

1415
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:56,880
Speaker 5: I feel the same way as you all. I think

1416
01:23:56,920 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 5: it would have been way higher if a woman had

1417
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 5: been because then it's like, okay, certain things, it's like,

1418
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:06,240
Speaker 5: this is too long what do you mean by this? Like,

1419
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,920
Speaker 5: I think if there had been at least a woman

1420
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:12,120
Speaker 5: on the team, or multiple women on the team that

1421
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:14,880
Speaker 5: could like push back at certain stuff, then this would

1422
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:18,720
Speaker 5: have been higher for me. But as to who I'd

1423
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:22,000
Speaker 5: give it to, think I'd also give it to Champ,

1424
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,600
Speaker 5: So it's like Cham. I think Yu, Kiko and y

1425
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:27,720
Speaker 5: are their names. But if I'm wrong, don't quote me.

1426
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:28,320
Speaker 1: Uh.

1427
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:35,240
Speaker 5: I would also the mom in the beginning, because even

1428
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 5: though she was kind of pushing back and stuff, she

1429
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:41,759
Speaker 5: was still like, Hey, I'm sort of invested in your career.

1430
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:43,920
Speaker 3: I don't really know that.

1431
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:45,519
Speaker 5: I like where you're going with it.

1432
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:47,360
Speaker 3: But classic mom behavior.

1433
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:51,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, classic mom behavior. So it's like mom and I

1434
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:54,880
Speaker 5: guess the third one is just Mima being able to

1435
01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:58,160
Speaker 5: survive at all, or like get out of all of that,

1436
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:01,240
Speaker 5: because I was just like, oh, especially when the truck

1437
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 5: was coming, I was like, oh, it's over, she's done

1438
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:07,800
Speaker 5: for truck Cunn has got her.

1439
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 3: Oh okay, never mind.

1440
01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:13,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, So her being able to move out of it,

1441
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:16,160
Speaker 5: Although I think I would have liked it if that

1442
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 5: story was kind of discussed a bit more of like

1443
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 5: how was she able to get a stronger sense of

1444
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:26,360
Speaker 5: self to then even decide to visit Roomy in the

1445
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:29,800
Speaker 5: first place to see like how she was doing and

1446
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 5: stuff like yeah, because I don't know if I would

1447
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:37,479
Speaker 5: visit somebody that was trying to stab me.

1448
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:42,639
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, side note, I know we're on final thoughts,

1449
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,120
Speaker 1: but like, why did she push her out of the

1450
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 1: way truck? If I'm so honest, it would have been

1451
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 1: by for me, Like right, she.

1452
01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:51,800
Speaker 5: Put her hands up in the air, and I was

1453
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 5: just like, I guess you know.

1454
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:53,920
Speaker 1: This is your choice.

1455
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 4: She was ready to go, right, Yeah, okay, yeah, I

1456
01:25:57,360 --> 01:26:00,679
Speaker 4: did wonder. I was like, were we supposed to that?

1457
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:05,880
Speaker 4: Like there was a mother daughter thing between them, and

1458
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,880
Speaker 4: that was why she was protective of her, because I

1459
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:12,160
Speaker 4: if that was what the aim was, it didn't come across.

1460
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:13,479
Speaker 3: Oh, that didn't even occur to me.

1461
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:17,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe that's just me coping and trying to figure

1462
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:20,479
Speaker 4: out what he's going for. But like, I don't get

1463
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:22,720
Speaker 4: why Mima would be like, no, we've got to I mean,

1464
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 4: it is tragic that Rumy was not able to have

1465
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:30,200
Speaker 4: the career that she probably deserved to have. But if

1466
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 4: someone stabbed me, I would let.

1467
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 3: Them get hit by a truck.

1468
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:38,400
Speaker 4: Especially if they just stabbed me, like just yeah, that's

1469
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:39,480
Speaker 4: divine intervention.

1470
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that feels like instant karma.

1471
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:44,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like I wonder if it was the whole

1472
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:47,880
Speaker 5: because then the wig part happened where she took the

1473
01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 5: wig off and suddenly she was Roomy again, and then

1474
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:52,599
Speaker 5: she put it back on and then she was Mima.

1475
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:57,679
Speaker 5: Then maybe real Mima was still kind of like, who

1476
01:26:57,800 --> 01:26:58,759
Speaker 5: is the real Mima?

1477
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 3: So then she pushed is that me?

1478
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:02,240
Speaker 1: Oh right?

1479
01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:06,120
Speaker 5: Yeah right, so is she pushing herself out? And then

1480
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 5: it's like, oh, that was actually Roomy? Who stabbed me?

1481
01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:13,160
Speaker 5: Why did I do that? But well we will never know.

1482
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:15,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, we truly won't.

1483
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:18,760
Speaker 4: But it has been wonderful trying to figure it out

1484
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:22,160
Speaker 4: with you. But thank you so much for coming on

1485
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 4: the show truly. Where can we find your work?

1486
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:29,840
Speaker 1: So you can find us across socials at show show

1487
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:34,479
Speaker 1: Sunday on Blue Sky. We're at Showsuresunday dot com. We're

1488
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:39,439
Speaker 1: also on threads. Yeah, we're available to be heard on

1489
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 1: podcast platforms, whatever preferred podcast platform you listen. We are

1490
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:45,679
Speaker 1: on there, yay.

1491
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:46,519
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1492
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:49,759
Speaker 5: Yeah. And that show Joe with a You and Sunday

1493
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 5: like ice Cream Sunday, and it is our anniversary month,

1494
01:27:55,640 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 5: and we're nearing our one hundredth episode. So if y'all

1495
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 5: are big, big fans of show Joe Anime or Jose Anime,

1496
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:08,759
Speaker 5: you can check out our catalog. We might have talked

1497
01:28:08,760 --> 01:28:12,559
Speaker 5: about one of your favorite films or TV series.

1498
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah amazing. You can follow us on mostly Instagram at Bechdelcast.

1499
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:26,080
Speaker 3: You can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon, where we

1500
01:28:26,160 --> 01:28:30,160
Speaker 3: have a whole back catalog of bonus episodes, plus two

1501
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:33,920
Speaker 3: new bonus episodes every month, all for five dollars a month.

1502
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:38,519
Speaker 3: What a bargain, I think, What a treat, What a dream.

1503
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:41,360
Speaker 3: It's sort of like a little Sunday of our own,

1504
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 3: you know, with sprinkles and a cherry on top with that.

1505
01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, how do we dismount for perfectly?

1506
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:54,800
Speaker 3: Let's go feed our fish to make sure they don't die.

1507
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:56,519
Speaker 4: Remember to feature fish, do.

1508
01:28:56,640 --> 01:29:05,360
Speaker 3: Remember to feturefish for crying out loud, Ye bye bye.

1509
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:08,760
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

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01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:12,679
Speaker 3: Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1511
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:15,760
Speaker 3: by mo La Boord. Our theme song was composed by

1512
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:20,040
Speaker 3: Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in

1513
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 3: Merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks

1514
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:27,679
Speaker 3: to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please

1515
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:30,040
Speaker 3: visit Linktree slash Bechdel Cast