1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: She overdosed someone on accident and tried to cover it 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: up with atropine and did it and she said, oh no, 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: I can really do it. 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is 15 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's 16 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 3: My name is Mary Kay McBrayer. 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: Mary Kay has written a book about one of America's 19 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: most infamous female serial killers, A poisoner from the eighteen hundreds. 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: She was a first generation Irish American nurse who was 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: born with the name of Nora Kelly before the woman 22 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: she worked for changed it to Jane Tappin, and soon 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: Tappin would be synonymous with murder and grief. 24 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 2: We're in Lowell, Massachusetts, which is outside of Boston by 25 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 2: I think about forty minutes contemporary transportation, and Anora Kelly 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: is born in Lowell in eighteen fifty four. Lowell is 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: very conservative town, very waspy also, so lots of Protestants, 28 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: zero Catholics, which is important in the context because her 29 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: parents are Irish immigrants. I don't have a lot of 30 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: information about them because they're Irish immigrants and they're working class. 31 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: We didn't pay a whole lot of attention to them 32 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: at the time, so it's very waspy, very class oriented. 33 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: So the phrase is you either have a maid or. 34 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 3: You are a maid. 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: No middle class, maybe upper. 36 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 2: Middle like they would fake it into the top by 37 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: getting a maid. Or when Honora is in infancy, her 38 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 2: mother dies of tuberculosis. Oh no, right, so leaving her 39 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 2: father with four children, single dad, Irish immigrant, four children. 40 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 2: Or I started the book is when he drops off 41 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: his two girls at the Boston Female Asylum, which was 42 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: essentially an orphanage. They didn't call it an orphanage, because 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: I think that it really was an altruistic venture the 44 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: best of the time. So he surrenders them to this 45 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 2: safe house essentially because he can't take care of them. 46 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 2: The rumor is that he was a tailor and he 47 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: sewed his own eyelids shut. 48 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 3: So horrific story, great place to start. 49 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: So she had two brothers and then one sister. 50 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: Right, I am not even sure of the sex of 51 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: the other kids because there's no real documentation. At some 52 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: point in my research, this doesn't exist. This document doesn't exist. 53 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: I just have to research around it and then decide that. 54 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: Is how little we thought of certain groups. Right, So 55 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: the Irish in this case is not even keeping records. 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: So the only reason you know about her history this 57 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: far back is because she was put into an asylum. 58 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 2: I think so, and the way they kind of stayed 59 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 2: in business because I'm pretty sure it was a private enterprise. 60 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: I don't think it was funded or not very much 61 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: by local or federal governments. 62 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 3: So they indentured out the girls. 63 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: Oh wow, wait, tell me how old they were. 64 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: When Honora was surrendered to this asylum. She was six, 65 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: So typically they would keep the girls in the asylum 66 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: and train them on domestic work and really practical, useful things. 67 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: They were educated in other subjects too, but not really 68 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: outside of what they would need to kind of get by. 69 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: And then when they turned twelve, they were indentured to 70 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: a local family and they were supposed to be provided 71 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: living conditions room and board until they turned a eighteen, 72 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: and then they would get either a new set of 73 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: clothes so they could seek employment elsewhere, and or fifty dollars. 74 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: Wow, but fifty dollars is a lot of money in 75 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. 76 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 3: It is. It's a lot more than it is now. 77 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: But when all you know is domestic work and you 78 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: already have a job lined up, it's like, why would 79 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: I leave? Right? Nobody taught me how to go advocate 80 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: for myself, of course, because that wasn't a skill that 81 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: was valuable in that setting to the people who were 82 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: indenturing them. 83 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 3: So they did definitely rescue her from a really troubled home. 84 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: So tell me then, what happens so she is indentured 85 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: out and do you know anything about the family or 86 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: any of the skills that she picked up while she 87 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: was working? 88 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody remembered her. She was very friendly very fun 89 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: to be around. Everyone felt really at home around her. 90 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 2: She was a great storyteller, like that's what they remember 91 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 2: about her as. 92 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: A little kid, like as six or seven years old. 93 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,679 Speaker 2: So Missus Toppin and Toppin, a widow at the time, 94 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: goes to the Boston Female Asylum to indenture a child 95 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: to come live with her. Although she was born Anra Kelly. 96 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: When Anne Toppin indentures her, she insists that she changed 97 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: her name to Jane Toppin because Honora Kelly is too 98 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: Irish and she can't have her friends being uncomfortable around 99 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: her because she's there all the time. 100 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: Missus Tappin passed her off as an Italian girl whose 101 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: parents had died at sea. 102 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: Essentially, she starts to teach a little girl to hate herself. 103 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: Another thing that I think contributes significantly to the derailment 104 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 2: of Jane as a human is that even though she 105 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 2: Anne Toppen insisted that she take her name, they never 106 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: adopted her, which as an eight year old that has 107 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: to sting, especially when they have another daughter. She doesn't 108 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: have to work, she just lives there. I got the 109 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: sense that Jane really wanted her to be a mother 110 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: figure and called her auntie and wanted to be Elizabeth's sister, 111 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 2: but they never made that legal step. It was very 112 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: much treating her like a servant. 113 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: So Jane starts displaying some pretty disturbing behavior. She's telling 114 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: outrageous lies at school. She says that her father sailed 115 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: or round the world, that her sister married an English nobleman, 116 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,679 Speaker 1: and her brother was decorated at Gettysburg by Abraham Lincoln, 117 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: over the top things that she thinks you're going to 118 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: make her feel better or feel popular when everyone at 119 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: Lowell High School knows who she is, that she's a 120 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: household servant. What happened to Jane's biological sister who had 121 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: been sent to the asylum with her? 122 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 3: Initially, it's disputed nothing good happened to her. 123 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that she got indentured out. The family 124 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 2: had a history of mental illness. It wasn't I believe 125 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: the last known whereabouts of Delia, her elder sister, But 126 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: the closest in age was that she was doing sex 127 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: work and then ended up in an actual mental asylum 128 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 2: as well. So I'm not sure how much truth there 129 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 2: is to that. If it was a sensational plot point. 130 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: So let me recap what I've learned so far. So 131 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: we have a little girl who is born into an 132 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: Irish family. She becomes indentured out, sort of sold to someone, 133 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: a woman named Anne Toppin, and Anne is upper class 134 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: and she has a biological daughter named Elizabeth. The young 135 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: girl who was a Nora Kelly has now turned to 136 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: Jane Toppin, and we since it Jane is hoping to 137 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: create a family here, but really she is truly an 138 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: addentured servant. And I'm assuming that this is laying the 139 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: groundwork for what will become a very hatred filled, bitter 140 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: life that then turns violent towards quite a lot of people. 141 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: Exactly right as I heard the story for the first 142 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: time too, I remember, you know, that's where the story 143 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: picks up. She gets surrendered, And because I have some 144 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 2: history in working in direct care with mental health, I 145 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: was like, well, there's definitely more to that story. There's 146 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: no evil kids, that just doesn't happen. Something happens to them, 147 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: So I'll go look it up later. 148 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 3: And then I did. 149 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 2: But still, because I am, you know, a writer and 150 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: a reader, was unsatisfied with a causality. 151 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: That's what keeps us coming back to why people are 152 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: the way they are, and you can't always find an 153 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: easy answer if people are not just created out of 154 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: thin air there as we know, it's a product of environment. 155 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: Based on her socioeconomic situation and where she was placed 156 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: with this family, it does sound like a pretty bad 157 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: beginning for someone who then will probably continue on to 158 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: feel oppressed by life. 159 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: I think so for sure. 160 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: Plenty of people have terrible childhoods and don't grow up 161 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: to kill thirty people, So I'm not trying to say 162 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: that that's what made her do it. One thing that 163 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: I personally just found egregious was when Anne Toppin died, 164 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: she didn't leave a single thing to Jane, no mention 165 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: of her in the will at all. 166 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: How long had she been a part of that family, 167 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: so I. 168 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: Don't remember the year exactly, but she was in her 169 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 3: mid twenties. 170 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: From age eight until mid twenties. Did you ever get 171 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: a sense for what Anne Toppin was like as a 172 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: maternal figure even though she wasn't a maternal figure, she 173 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: was essentially owning this person. Was Jane treated? Well? Do 174 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: we have any idea about what their relationship was like? 175 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 2: So from what I read it was borderline abusive. Okay, 176 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: I would consider abusive. She was a genius, right, So 177 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: if you take any proc kid and you try to 178 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: tell them how to do something and they know that 179 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: you're wrong, she was sassy right like she would talk back. 180 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: I don't think that they had a good relationship at all. 181 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: I think Elizabeth a lot of the time had to 182 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: intervene on Jane's behalf, and she did. 183 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: And Elizabeth was Anne Hoppins's daughter. 184 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: She was actually significantly older but acted childlike, which I 185 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: tried to depict in the book because I remember learning 186 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 2: that she was so much older than Jane and being 187 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: just astonished by the stories of their interactions that seemed 188 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 2: like they were about the same age. 189 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: How does the relationship between the Toppins and Jane Toppin end. 190 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: One thing that Jane does, which I think is really 191 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: ballsy and fun. 192 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 3: I don't know if I can say that it's really courageous. 193 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: You've heard my favorite murder. You can say whatever you want. 194 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty ballsy that she decided when she's 195 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: twenty eight that she's going to change careers. 196 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 3: She decided that she wanted to be a nurse, which. 197 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: Even now is really hard and heroic, and back then 198 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 2: it was largely custodial work. She got accepted to Cambridge 199 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: Nursing School, which is a huge deal even now, very prestigious, 200 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: and so that was one of the breaking points, right 201 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: with Elizabeth. After and died, she stayed on for another 202 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: I think four years, just as a servant in the house. Also, 203 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 2: she lived in this tiny attic apartment. I know that 204 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: you're in a hot area, but can you imagine living 205 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: in the attic in the summer. I don't know how 206 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: you would dive he stroke, Yeah, and then very cold 207 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: in the winter as well. 208 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: So living but at what costs? 209 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: Kind of at some point she went from being indentured 210 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: to being a housekeeper to get into nursing school, does 211 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: she have to have some sort of an education before that, 212 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: a formal education? 213 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: I think that for a nursing school, it was kind 214 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: of a directly to we're going to teach you how 215 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: to get certified in this. 216 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: Okay. 217 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: They lived in the hospital, were at school and worked 218 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 2: for twelve hours, and then they stayed in a dormitory 219 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: with each other. So it was very intensive, exhaustive training. Gosh, 220 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: that just makes me tired. Of even thinking about it. 221 00:10:55,280 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: Do we have an idea of why she chose nursing specifically. 222 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: Notifically, but I think it was a sort of step up, 223 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: but not far off from what she knew already. 224 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: Okay, because you said it was custodial. 225 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, the head nurse, the doctors loved her, loved being 226 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: around her. She would think of things they needed before 227 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: they needed them. 228 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 3: Just really who you wanted on the shift. But the 229 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 3: other nursing students. 230 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: Didn't like her, and she didn't like them either, so 231 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: she was very jealous. 232 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: So this is where she earned the nickname Jolly Jane 233 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: because she had such a nice disposition, right, But I'm 234 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: guessing it was that the other students who gave her 235 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: that name. So she gets along with patients. But she's 236 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: also lying still. She said something crazy like the Tzar 237 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: of Russia had given her a nursing job. Things that 238 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: were just totally outrageous, and she continually irritated her coworkers. 239 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: Would tell stories to get them fired. They went out 240 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 2: drinking or whatever what she was doing. 241 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: If you think about Jane's background growing up, she probably 242 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: has very little memory of her siblings, and then the 243 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: didynamic she has with Elizabeth, the daughter of the woman 244 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: who took her from the home. That is not equal 245 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: by any means. So she hasn't understand like I talk 246 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: about my eleven year old twins about socializing them, she 247 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: doesn't understand how to socialize. So that's not surprising to 248 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: me at all that she's thinking on people or she's 249 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: having a competitive nature, because it seems like nobody taught 250 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: her how to get along with peers. 251 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 3: Not great in her personal skills. 252 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: Did she date? 253 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 3: There is a rumor of a broken engagement. 254 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 2: I was not really able to confirm whether that was 255 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: something she made up. 256 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you one thing. I did not realize 257 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: that maybe some of the listeners knew. But there were 258 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: lawsuits that started in the eighteen hundreds into the early 259 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds. So when women would get engaged to men, 260 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: the men would know that these women were not going 261 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: to sleep with them until they got married. But the 262 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: men would say, but we're engaged, and so the women 263 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: would sleep with them, and then the men would break 264 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: the engagements. You could sue that man, your ex fiance, 265 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: because now you're perceived value in society has gone down 266 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: because you've now had sex before marriage. But I think 267 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: about that with Jane. A lot of women did that, 268 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: so I could have absolutely seen that happen in this 269 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: situation too. You know who knows? 270 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 3: I think. 271 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: So she's in the nursing school and she's single, and 272 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: she's causing problems within her peers. But she seems to 273 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: be really well respected with faculty there. 274 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 3: Yes, and some of her patients really adored her as well. 275 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: When does this transition happen where she is treating people. 276 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: She has a list of favorite patients. Yes, she's not 277 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: getting along with some of the other people in nursing school, 278 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: but when do we start to see her true personality. 279 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 2: When she was at Cambridge Hospital, her patients would complain 280 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: to other nurses and doctors saying they overheard her say 281 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: to someone or directly to them that there was no 282 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: point in keeping the elderly alive, just horrible things, like 283 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: they were just making her job harder. And then she 284 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: also would drug the patients that she really liked so 285 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 2: that the doctors thought there was something else wrong with 286 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: them and they would have to stay. She had a 287 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: separation thing. She didn't want to be separated from her 288 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 2: favorite patients. Her patients were getting discharged and just kind 289 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 2: of saying bye, are not even saying by. And she 290 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: didn't like that because it was such a hardship to 291 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: care for them, so she would try to keep them, 292 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: try to make them sick. So they appreciated her more 293 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: because she is really smart. She's just not been appreciated 294 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: or recognized for any of her intelligence. 295 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: So she thinks she's getting used again. I think so, 296 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: just like she did with Anne toppin that's a job, 297 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: you have to let go of people. But so is 298 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: that what you would think? 299 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: That's what I deduced. I don't know that she would 300 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: say that if you asked her. So I think there 301 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: might be something with the attachment to other people of necessity, 302 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: like if you need me, you won't get rid of me, 303 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: because that's what she learned as the basis of interactions. 304 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 3: It's almost economic. 305 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: And I know there's this crazy story about this patient, 306 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: Amelia Finney, who had an operation. Jane gave her many 307 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: medicine and then Emelia remembers Jane getting into her bed 308 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: and kissing her and then being interrupted. But there's no proof, 309 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: so the doctors don't do anything. What did they say 310 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: to her? 311 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: We don't think there's any truth to this. So we're 312 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: going to recommend you to this other hospital. But you 313 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: can't stay here because everyone's scared of you. So she 314 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: goes to this other hospital and the same thing happens, 315 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: and this time, rather than just dose covertly the patients 316 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: that she liked, she would experiment. So she's back in 317 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: nursing school starting over. Was almost done, and now she 318 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: has to go back through. So I can only imagine 319 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: how frustrating that was, especially when she was so good 320 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: at the job when she decided to be so. They 321 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: also said that her textbook, you know how you kind 322 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: of crease the spine on accident, you break the spine 323 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: on your favorite page where the juicy scene is in 324 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 2: the novel, for example. But hers would open to the 325 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: pages for morphine and atropine. 326 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 3: Right. 327 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: They sold morphine over the counter at this time. Can 328 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: you imagine? 329 00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. 330 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just like you just write, you just add 331 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: it to your car, and then you check out with it, 332 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: and then you go home and take it as needed. 333 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 3: That is wild. 334 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: Now I am not well versed in morphine, so as 335 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: a shot, is that how you would take it? 336 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: There are several different ways you can take it. One 337 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: that she did with her super elderly patients when it 338 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: was hard to get a vein was enemma. I think 339 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: you can administer it orally as well. 340 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 3: It's harder to track. 341 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: When you don't inject it right because there's no no 342 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: trace of it. 343 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: Do you think it was the first one was an 344 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: accident because it does sound a little more satisfying to 345 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: kind of keep them around. Then she transitions to killing. 346 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: What does that jump like? 347 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: So I think it is similar to a lot of 348 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 2: the other killers that we see where it escalates gradually. 349 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: She doesn't just wake up one day, I'm going to 350 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: kill a whole family. I don't think that is what happened. 351 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: I don't think she had a break. I have a 352 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: really hard time with accepting that that happens. It just 353 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: seems like you could monitor it if you knew what 354 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: to watch for, and you. 355 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 3: Knew that you should watch. 356 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: So I do think that she escalated through accident at first, 357 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: and then you get a little confident when you can 358 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: rescue someone. So my thinking is that she would dose 359 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 2: people with morphine so they'd be unconscious. They have something 360 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: going on, let's keep them for observation, and then I 361 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 2: think she overdosed someone on accident and tried to cover 362 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 2: it up with atropine and did it. 363 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,479 Speaker 3: Oh no, I can really do it. 364 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: She really got off on taking people all the way 365 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: to the edge of death and then bringing them back then. 366 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 2: And we don't have to go too far into detail 367 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 2: on this, but she got in the bed with people 368 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: and derived sexual gratification from doing that to them as 369 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: they were about to die, and then bring them back. 370 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god, what is that? 371 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 3: It is? 372 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: Just if no one else can recognize how smart I am, 373 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: at least I'm going to prove it to myself. It's 374 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 2: a mad scientisty type of perversion. 375 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 3: I think. 376 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: Give me a timeline where we are right now. She's 377 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: at Cambridge Hospital, the other hospital she had made people sick, right, 378 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: she hadn't killed anybody that we know of that we 379 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: know of. 380 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 2: Those complaints have at Cambridge as well. No, I'm scared her. 381 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: I don't want her as a nurse. 382 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: So she's then kicked out of Cambridge Hospital too, But 383 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: she said that doesn't matter because I can make more 384 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: money as a private nurse anyway, which. 385 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: She did, because then she was going into the homes 386 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 2: of the upper class and basically staying with them until 387 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 2: they either got better or died. 388 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: She became a private nurse though yes, okay, wow. 389 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 2: She never got her actual nursing certificate or degree, but 390 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: she we went through the whole program at both schools, 391 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: but never got the diploma because she was not really 392 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: doing the job. She was killing people or hurting them. 393 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: So then she went to private nursing and half of 394 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: the time the people were very sick and elderly, and 395 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: the other half she made them very sick. 396 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: So she wasn't making money. She wasn't stealing from them, 397 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: she wasn't making money off of any of this. This 398 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: was a power thing. 399 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: It was a power thing until the private nursing and 400 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 2: then she would, you know, slip a couple dollars out 401 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: of their bag or a ring would go missing because 402 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: she was also running a debt buying food. She's gaining 403 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 2: weight at this time as well. She's never been very thin, 404 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 2: but that was the body ideal, you know. 405 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: Curvy and also you can afford to eat, and also 406 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: you can afford to eat. You know. I look at 407 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: my list of victims, and there are many of them, 408 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: but the one that seems to strike me. Is does 409 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: this kind of start with the landlord in eighteen ninety 410 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: five with Israel Dunham, that is. 411 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 3: The first confirmed one. We're they're for sure that that 412 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 3: was her doing. 413 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: Okay, start with that story. So she moves in. Is 414 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: she in a boarding house or where is she living 415 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: when she first meets Israel and his wife? 416 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 2: So I think she got a lot of her clients 417 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 2: by word of mouth. There are also advertisements in several 418 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 2: papers of private nurses. That's how she found the clients. 419 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: And then I think when she worked with one family, 420 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 2: the neighbor would be like, oh, you still know Jane, 421 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: can she come work for us? And she would live 422 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 2: with them. So it's not shift work like it is now. 423 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's more of like a live in nurse until 424 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: the contract is up, the person dies, or they get better. 425 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: It's not exactly hand to mouth, but it. 426 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: Kind of is right because you can't really stack them 427 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: up in a row because you don't know when you're 428 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 2: gonna need the work next. She runs up a bill 429 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: hard to pay down her rent. She likes candy, so 430 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 2: she goes to like the boutique specialty places. 431 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 3: Clothes are important. 432 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 2: She drinks too, so that runs up a bill, and 433 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: so she starts stealing to pay those things down. And 434 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: then I think that becomes a power move as well, 435 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 2: because she can get away with it because they have 436 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: so much wealth that they don't miss it. And it's 437 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: really interesting too, because I think when we and by interesting, 438 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: I mean like horrible, but also fascinating that when we 439 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: think now, with so much of the criminal profiling that 440 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: has developed in the past few decades, we know that 441 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: typically there's a victim type and there's an mo and 442 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: it's usually like within the same ethnic group, not always, 443 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: but if it's not, it's usually pretty specific, right, It's 444 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: usually like a specific hate crime. And she was all 445 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 2: over the place. It started off with her patients, who 446 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 2: were patients from anything from having to get sister moved moved, 447 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 2: to delivering children at the hospital. He's just kind of 448 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: everyone who needs care. And then it went to the elderly, 449 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 2: and then from there it escalated to people she knew, 450 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 2: and went to her family, and then it went to 451 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 2: her landlord later who she owed money, and then that 452 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: whole family and then that's when they and I don't 453 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 2: want to spoil too much of it, but she got 454 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: real sloppy. 455 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: We're talking with author Mary Kay McBrayer about serial killer 456 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: Jane Toppin and we're about to find out how these 457 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: murders happened and when they became very very personal. It 458 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: starts with Elizabeth, who was the woman she was raised with, 459 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: kind of like a sister. Well, let's start where things 460 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: start to unravel. So she's stealing in these upper class homes. 461 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: She's killing patients who are annoying to her or who 462 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: seem like they're probably pretty close to death to begin with. 463 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: When do we start kind of getting into the cases 464 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: that we read about where she starts tripping up a 465 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: little bit. 466 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: Jane goes in summers at Cape cod with the Davis family, 467 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 2: not always with them, but that's where they have like 468 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 2: a little pod of cottages that people rent, and she 469 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: stays there and the residents they love having her there 470 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: because it's kind of like a doctor on hands. If 471 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 2: something happens she's nearby, she gets a discounted rate. She 472 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 2: mails Elizabeth a letter. Remember letters, when you had to 473 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: do that to get in touch with someone. So she 474 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 2: mails Elizabeth's letters saying that come visit with me. Let's 475 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: have this summer together. So Elizabeth comes out to spend 476 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 2: some of the summer like a vacation with her, and 477 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: Jane decides to poison her, just on a whim. I 478 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: don't know that she intended that when she invited her out. 479 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 2: I think it just that bitterness rose. 480 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: So we don't know the circumstances or if there was 481 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: an argument. There were no witnesses, anybody who had anything 482 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: to say about the conversation between the two of them. 483 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 2: I don't think that the conversation was witnessed, but I 484 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: know that the husband said, I put Elizabeth on the train. 485 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 2: He was a depot master, so he said, I put 486 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: her on the train. She was fine, she arrived, she 487 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: was fine. Within two days, she was dead. He got 488 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: there before she died, but she wasn't unconscious and he 489 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 2: didn't get to talk to her. Jane twisted the knife 490 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 2: by saying before she died, she told me she wanted 491 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 2: me to have some of her jewelry. But he doesn't 492 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: care about that at the time, right he's grieving, I know. 493 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: So then this happens in eighteen ninety nine, and then 494 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: two years later she has then moved in with the 495 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: Davis family. 496 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 2: The moment when she got the most sloppy is when 497 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 2: she killed the whole family, the Davis family. Alden Davis 498 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: fought for the Confederacy and then moved to Boston, and 499 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 2: he opened his home as a hotel. People would go 500 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 2: out and spend the summer on Cape Cod where they 501 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: just need to get out of the city because it's 502 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 2: so hot and smoggy. Alden's wife goes to see their daughter. 503 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: Jane's on the way. I'm gonna go collect. 504 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 3: This debt and we don't have to ever talk to 505 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: her again. 506 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: Why did they feel like that? Why did they not 507 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: like Jane? 508 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: I think they did like her. She had just had 509 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 2: enough of her not paying her bills, so she shows up. 510 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 2: Jane is happy to see her. She gives her some water. 511 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 2: In the water, she drops something that poisons the mother 512 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: morphine atropine strych nine, so she dies within two days, 513 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 2: and Jane is consistently overdosing her, so it looks partly 514 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: he stroked. 515 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 3: They don't really understand why she died. 516 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly what it says on her death certificate, 517 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: but it's not poisoned because they didn't know that at 518 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: the time. So after that she goes to take care 519 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: of the family. We're friends. I'm sorry this happened. I 520 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 2: hate it that I feel, you know, I feel so responsible. 521 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: And then they start dying one by one. She poisons 522 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: each of them individually. Waits a while, she starts setting 523 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: fires in the house, which is another escalation. 524 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: What did the police say, There's no way. 525 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: All four of these family members, who were in totally 526 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: fine health before, just happened to come into this woman's 527 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: orbit and then died unexpectedly. 528 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: So she's now killed Elizabeth, She's killed the Davis family. 529 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: And then she approaches Elizabeth's husband, Ramel Brigham, who is 530 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: a church a deacon. 531 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 2: Right she goes to live with Ormel as maid of 532 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: all work again as his you know, live in help, 533 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: and tries to trap him into marrying her. 534 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: And a lot happened with Oramel. She poisoned his housekeeper 535 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: and killed her. Then she tries to poison Ormel after 536 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: he says he's not interested in marrying her. Then she 537 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: threatened to claim he got her pregnant. 538 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: And he just says to get out. Another sad part 539 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: is that she tries to kill herself too in the 540 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 2: same way and fails. 541 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 3: Twice? 542 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: Wow, with poison with strych nine or any Wow. Let's 543 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: pause on that, because that seems I don't know she 544 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: would know exactly how much she needed to take, right, 545 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? 546 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 2: I struggled with that too, because she did it twice 547 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: and failed twice. 548 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that doesn't seem right. 549 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 3: It doesn't seem right. 550 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: Did people find her both? Was she rescued? 551 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 3: Yes? 552 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: Okay, so well there you. 553 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 3: Go, right? And I think it was more of. 554 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: A receiving attention thing. 555 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: It sounds like, yeah, attention and then also trying to 556 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 2: absolve herself of getting caught. Wouldn't I know how to 557 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: do it if it was really me? 558 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm not a good poisoner obviously. 559 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 2: And then I think too it was probably sad and 560 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: attention seeking self pity. 561 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: And then the police on Cape Cod say, this is 562 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: odd that four people of this family have all died, 563 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: and then they quickly connect it to Jane because everybody 564 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: says she's sort of acting as the doctor and has 565 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: all this medicine. Right, is she on the run or 566 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: do they track her down or what happens? 567 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: So they follow her from Cape Cod when she's staying 568 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 2: with OROML and then she goes to stay with another 569 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 2: of her friends, a couple, and that's when they arrest her. 570 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: Tell me about the arrest, She surprised. Did we have 571 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: any narrative about what happens from then going forward? About 572 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: interaction with police? 573 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: So the detectives are closed mouthed, and I think it's 574 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: because they're embarrassed that they didn't catch her sooner. That's 575 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 2: a high body count. 576 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: She is being spoken to, and does she immediately confess. 577 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: No, she maintains that she didn't do it until right 578 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: after they convict her. Oh, you asked earlier, how was 579 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: the arrest? She was outraged that they wouldn't leave her 580 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: alone to pack, so they saw all of her underwear 581 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: and everything while she was packing. Uh, well, yeah, we're 582 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 2: not going to let you go back into the back 583 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: room alone. 584 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: That's why they had female officers. They had female officers. Yeah, 585 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: that early many times in bigger cities at least, to 586 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: interview those women who are victims of sexual assault or 587 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: to be involved in those sort of situations. Just because 588 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: you have a female suspect doesn't mean she shouldn't be treated. 589 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 3: Like she's not a suspect. 590 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so she wasn't dramatic, but she was ticked off 591 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: that they were not willing to leave the room while 592 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: she packed up her undies. 593 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was scandalized. And then she may contains her 594 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 2: innocence that she didn't do anything, and she actually had 595 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: a childhood friend defend her, I think pro bona or 596 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 2: for a very discounted rate. She got letters of support 597 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 2: all through her jailing, and then she was convicted guilty 598 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 2: but insane, which was fascinating as well, and she went 599 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 2: to a hospital for the criminally insane Taunton, which actually 600 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: is still in operation, but not for that purpose anymore. 601 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently it's still an active state hospital. So she 602 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: goes on trial for killing the family specifically. I'm assuming 603 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: they're not bringing charges on any of these other suspected deaths. 604 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: So what is the trial like and who is there 605 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: and who is testifying? What kind of evidence do they 606 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: have against her? 607 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 2: Well, there's lots of cartoons in the papers of her 608 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: being dressed and having a high collar and basically her 609 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 2: nurse's caller at court, which was not really appropriate court 610 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: room attire, but that's what she had, so that's what 611 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: she wore. They focus a lot on how she looked 612 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: and how she behaved, and a lot less on the 613 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: actual testimony. I think that's a product of the time. 614 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: Yes, I think Victorian America was so stunned by the 615 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: idea that there's this woman who could kill so callously 616 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: that the facts would have just kind of gotten in 617 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: the way. And this was a great courtroom drama. 618 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 2: They interviewed the what is it called when it's a 619 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 2: woman jailer matron? 620 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: It's like that. 621 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they interviewed the matron about her. Yes, she's 622 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: really well behaved. She helped me mend a couple of shirts. 623 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 2: She gets flowers from admirers. 624 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: From male admirers, I'm assuming. Yeah, so we know that 625 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: men who kill have female admirers. You see that with 626 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,719 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez and these guys who are 627 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: clearly dangerous, but women are still attracted to them. The 628 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: same thing happens with men with some killers who are women. 629 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: It's incredible, including in the eighteen hundreds. So she got 630 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: flower from male admirers or. 631 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: Her former patients, you know, saying we support you and 632 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: thank you the ones she didn't kill. 633 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: Did it seem like was it a packed courtroom? There 634 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: were a lot of Glauckers observers in this particular trial. 635 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: I found some of the courtroom documentation from the people 636 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: in the courtroom, but a lot of it was missing 637 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: from those archives. It was only the conviction really that 638 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 2: went into detail. It said that there was a testimony 639 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 2: from Amelia Finny, who was awake when she got in 640 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: bed with her and several family members. 641 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 3: Of the victims. 642 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: Okay, so she has been found guilty, yes, but criminally insane. 643 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: So that's curious. Just as a little aside, she doesn't 644 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: actually fit the criteria in the eighteen hundreds for being 645 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: legally insane because she doesn't fall under this Magnaughton rule. 646 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: So it's a rule that was named after Daniel McNaughton. 647 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: In eighteen forty three, he tried to kill England's Prime Minister, 648 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: Sir Robert pa So McNaughton thought Peel wanted to kill him, 649 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: so he tried to shoot Peel, but instead he shot 650 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: and killed Peel's male secretary. So all these medical experts 651 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: testified that McNaughton was psychotic, and McNaughton was found not 652 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: guilty by reason of insanity. So this has been sort 653 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: of a blueprint for ways to define whether someone is 654 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: legally insane. This would assume that she did not understand 655 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: what she was doing was wrong. And that doesn't sound 656 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: like the case. When you're covering up things, that means 657 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: you know you're doing something wrong. 658 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: Right. Oh, she definitely knew, and she said she knew. Yeah, 659 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: they're going to overturn this. Yeah, I'm not crazy, so 660 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 2: I'll be out soon. 661 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: So they put her in a facility for the criminally insane. 662 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: How old was she when this happened? Do you know 663 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: she was on trial in nineteen oh two, I think. 664 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 3: Right, so she's early fifties. 665 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: Anybody from her family, anybody at all, nobody comes, okay, 666 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: and then she talks to the newspapers as right. 667 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: That's what the newspapers say, is that she confessed everything 668 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: to them, but not in the courtroom, which I find suspicious. 669 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so why, knowing what. 670 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: We know of her, I have a hard time thinking 671 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: that if she was going to confess, it wouldn't be 672 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: to the people in charge, so that they knew that 673 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: she was smart. 674 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: In this confession, whether it's true or not, What were 675 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: the highlights of the confession. What did she say? 676 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: Well, they were very sensationalized, which I guess is not 677 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 2: totally out of character. But she said that Elizabeth was 678 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: the first person that she wanted to die, and that 679 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: she laughed with delight while she gasped. 680 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 3: Her last breath, and just very over the top. 681 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: Victorian sentiments of how these people died and how she 682 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: did it? 683 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: And then she did she talk about in the confession? 684 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: Did she talk about her motives or any of that 685 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: sort of anything in that nature. 686 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 2: She didn't really say why she did it, but she 687 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: did admit that if she had had a husband and children, 688 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: she would have been too busy to kill all these people, 689 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: which I also have a hard. 690 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 3: Time, yeah, whatever thinking that she said. 691 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously that's not true. You can make time 692 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 2: for it if you really want to do it. 693 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: But you're motivated. 694 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 2: So this is a cautionary tale for spinsterhood, which it 695 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 2: makes sense for the newspapers right to want it to 696 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 2: be that way because that was the ideal for the time, 697 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:27,959 Speaker 2: But it doesn't make sense for her to do it 698 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: because she was very keen on taking credit for doing 699 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 2: the good things that she did. 700 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: So what is the lesson learned with this story? This 701 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: woman who grew up in poverty and was really badly 702 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: treated up until her twenties, and then became independent. By 703 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: that time, it sounded like she really became corrupted. What 704 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: do you take away from this besides don't be a 705 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: spinster who knows about strych nine, right. 706 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 2: I do think that there's a lot to learn from 707 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 2: her story, especially about childhood. I would like to think 708 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 2: that if she lived now, someone would notice that she 709 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: was having problems at home and would try to give 710 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 2: her the attention that she's so clearly desperately wanted. I 711 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 2: don't know that it would have changed anything, but I 712 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 2: think that we need to pay more attention to intervening early. 713 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 3: Is really the takeaway from her story that I got. 714 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: Do you feel like had she not had this childhood? 715 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: We don't know the answer to this. Really, it's speculating. 716 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: Do you think that this would have happened? She must 717 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: have had some really bad things happen. Just seems like 718 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: a lot of anger at a lot of people. 719 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 2: I don't know that it would have stopped her behavior 720 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: from escalating, but I think that we would have stopped 721 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 2: a lot of subsequent murders. And I think that our 722 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 2: laws are getting better at recognizing suspicious behavior before it 723 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 2: really goes murderous. We know now that peeping Tom is 724 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 2: not innocuous. That is an indicative behavior that there's going 725 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 2: to be something bad happening later. 726 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: That is not boys being boys. No, it is not, 727 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: and it has been treated like that for a very 728 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: long time. 729 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 2: You're right, right, So I think some of these other things. 730 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: I think there's more that we should note. 731 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 3: I don't know. 732 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 2: I just feel like she had so much promise when 733 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: she was young, and then so much went so wrong 734 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 2: that it just seems like it could have been curbed. 735 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of psychopathy really within someone, 736 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: because I end up studying psychopathy quite a lot with 737 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: the people who I deal with in my books and 738 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: in the podcast season one of them were rule off. 739 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: She had a lot of the hallmarks that I study, 740 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: this glib personality, inability to be close with someone. She's 741 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: targeting victims like Elizabeth, her would be sister. But then 742 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: it sounds like there's also a lot of crime of 743 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: opportunity where she's just sort of there and she's has 744 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,959 Speaker 1: the tools and she takes advantage of it. But there's 745 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: a lot of this is what I want to get 746 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: out of my way. And then the sexual gratification. It 747 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: is interesting female killers who work on their own, I 748 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: don't hear about the gratification thing. Usually that comes when 749 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: they're working with another man Fred and Rosemary West or 750 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: any of these other cases. So she really is an 751 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: outlier in that way. 752 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. 753 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: She just checks off so many boxes that it's hard 754 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 2: to trace that one progression. 755 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: What is the major theme here? When somebody says, Mary, Kay, 756 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: what's your first book? Tell me about it? 757 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 2: It's very much a class issue too. It's definitely an 758 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: issue of her being a woman, of her being working class, 759 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 2: and of her being in a position. I mean, the 760 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: one reason why it's so disturbing, her job was to 761 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 2: take care of people. That's what she was supposed to do, 762 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 2: and she did the exact opposite and got away with 763 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 2: it for a long time, and that's really disturbing. 764 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 3: It's scary. 765 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 2: And then I think also one reason she got away 766 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 2: with it for so long is it no one wanted 767 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: to point a finger. It was stigmatized to be a 768 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 2: victim of something like that too. 769 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 3: So I don't know that there is just one takeaway. 770 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: She's an unlikely killer. She's a woman and a nurse 771 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: and educated, and would seem to be an unlikely suspect. 772 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,760 Speaker 1: You said that she I don't know if a cop 773 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: asked her, or an or a newspaper writer asked her, 774 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: would she have continued killing had she not been caught. 775 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: Can you tell me just a little bit about that 776 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 1: sort of conversation and what she said? 777 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 2: Oh, she said, you know, I'm glad you arrested me 778 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 2: when you did. Otherwise I probably would have killed the 779 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 2: people who I was staying with too. 780 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: Isn't that horrifying to think that they had come that 781 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: close to dying? 782 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:21,479 Speaker 3: Right? 783 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 2: They were sitting on the front porch with her when 784 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 2: the detectives came and arrested her. 785 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: I think that the idea that early intervention for either 786 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: someone who has gone down a bad path because of 787 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: their environment or because of something that's ingrained in their brain. 788 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: If we're talking about psychopathy, all of that benefits from 789 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: early intervention. I think that's what we've learned despite everything 790 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: that she's done. Why is it important to learn? I 791 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: think specifically about women and female killers, which I have 792 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: an interest in. 793 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 3: I do too. 794 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 2: I think that most of the time the women know 795 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 2: they're victims, they're mad about something that happened, and not 796 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 2: just wanting to exercise power. And I don't think that 797 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 2: that's the case here. She was all over the board. 798 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 2: She didn't have just one mo she didn't have just 799 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: one victim profile. And I think that it's just an 800 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 2: important thing to pay attention to, because who's to say that, 801 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 2: like that's not more common than we think. 802 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 803 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 4: Had he not been caught when he was, he would 804 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 4: still be on this spree, which it was so unusual 805 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 4: in that it was not limited to one geographic area. 806 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 4: I mean, he was killing all over the United States 807 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 4: of America. 808 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 5: He had no victim profile. He was terrifying. 809 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 810 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death. In the year this has 811 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 1: been an exactly tenfold more media production. Alexis and Morosi 812 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer. Ellen 813 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: Middleton is a researcher for US. Curtis Heath does the composition, 814 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink designed the website. 815 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark Karen Kilgareff and Daniel 816 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: Kramer follow Wicked words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold 817 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: more Wicked, and on Twitter at tenfold more. 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