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Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. So, in

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Speaker 1: a week where we get a read on monthly jobs,

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Speaker 1: we'll start jolts tomorrow. We get monthly jobs on Friday. Right.

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Speaker 1: One group, though, Paul, that continues to have trouble getting

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Speaker 1: a lig up, and that is women. We see this consistently. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is, and it's an issue that probably is exacerbated

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Speaker 1: as an issue during the pandemic. But the that's gonna

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Speaker 1: flush that out a little bit. We can do that

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Speaker 1: with Shanna Hawking, founder of Hawking Leadership, joins us on

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Speaker 1: zoom from Philadelphia. So, uh, Shanna talked to us about

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Speaker 1: kind of your report, what your findings are showing. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and then we can take this forward. Sure, I'm so

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Speaker 1: glad to be here. What I'm learning and seeing from

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Speaker 1: women everywhere is that we want to succeed, We want

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Speaker 1: to advance our careers, and there are significant barriers to

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Speaker 1: our ability to do that, and that the pandemic, I

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Speaker 1: think in particular, has shown women that we're not willing

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Speaker 1: to settle anymore for workplaces don't value us. So help

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Speaker 1: me out here, um Shana. We we talked to a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks, and I feel like this has been

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Speaker 1: a forgive me but kind of a chronic problem. Uh,

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Speaker 1: not just this year, last year pre pandemic, but for

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Speaker 1: years that women just seem to continue to come up

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Speaker 1: against barriers when it comes to the workplace. Things getting better,

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Speaker 1: many would argue, but it's still pretty tough and I

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Speaker 1: can still count on my hand maybe the number of

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Speaker 1: CEOs of publicly held companies that are women. Um, so

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Speaker 1: help me out here. What what new things you're finding

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Speaker 1: in your research and maybe it comes off the pandemic

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Speaker 1: that things are worse or better. Tell me what you're

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Speaker 1: what you're seeing. I'd love to reference the recent Mackenzie

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Speaker 1: Women in the Workplace Report. I think it has the

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Speaker 1: most up to date um information from women everywhere who

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Speaker 1: are saying, uh, you know, we want flexibility, we want

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Speaker 1: to completely revamped culture of work, and we want to

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Speaker 1: continue to advance our careers, but only when there are

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Speaker 1: companies who are willing to support us and value the

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Speaker 1: whole person that we are. And I'm seeing that from

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Speaker 1: my clients as well as from the research from McKenzie

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Speaker 1: and Lenin what are in your research? I guess, um, Sean,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to get what you think is the top

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Speaker 1: issue that can in fact be addressed. Um, where is

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Speaker 1: some room for optimism? Well, I am a rational optimist.

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Speaker 1: I do believe that this is possible for us to

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Speaker 1: work through this. I think what we did in the

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Speaker 1: pandemic is we found that we had to create new

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Speaker 1: models of work. And if we can continue to do that,

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Speaker 1: and I know it takes time and effort, that when

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Speaker 1: we begin leading for the world that we're working toward

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Speaker 1: rather than from where we were, um, we'll be able

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Speaker 1: to retain men and women in the workplace and help

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Speaker 1: them thrive. All Right, you have to tell me or

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Speaker 1: sell me that women are incredible and what they can do.

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Speaker 1: But I'm going to go back to like, as long

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Speaker 1: as I've been doing this, and it's a fairly time

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Speaker 1: at this point, I feel like I've been talking about

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Speaker 1: this issue over and over and over again. So I

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Speaker 1: guess I do wonder. I think we did think the

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Speaker 1: pandemic was going to be Wow, Look, we can work flexible.

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Speaker 1: You know, hybrid women can work at home. It's easier

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Speaker 1: since women tend to when there's kids involved. They still

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Speaker 1: tend to pick up the bulk of those responsibilities. So

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm going to what Paul said, like, what

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Speaker 1: is something that we could change right now, right here

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Speaker 1: that would really move the needle when it comes to

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Speaker 1: women in the workplace. I think the number one thing

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing, both research and anecdotal is to continue

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Speaker 1: to embrace hybrid and remote work. Women are resoundingly saying

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Speaker 1: I can be successful in my job while doing all

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Speaker 1: the other things that are important to me, reduced commute,

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Speaker 1: caring for my family. And that means that we have

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Speaker 1: to think about why organizations are all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: reverting back to the way that we used to be

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Speaker 1: when we are hearing these messages about how we can

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Speaker 1: support our employees. That's that's a great point because I

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Speaker 1: think we just heard today Bank of America's UH tightening

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Speaker 1: up their back to work requirements here. But what what

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Speaker 1: is amazing to me, Debora, during this pandemic and the

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Speaker 1: and the work from home was how productive workers were

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Speaker 1: across different industries. And I just think that the industry

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Speaker 1: that Carol and I focus on, Yeah, I mean, I said,

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Speaker 1: no way you're gonna be able to trade government bonds

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Speaker 1: from your living room. But it's sure enough they did

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Speaker 1: and did it very well. I mean, what's the argument

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Speaker 1: against that, I guess you know, I mean that you

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Speaker 1: know that maybe you're hearing about coming back to work

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Speaker 1: and that might not be so supportive for women and others. Well, first,

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Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge that, yes, everybody felt more productive

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Speaker 1: and also just more whole when they were working remotely

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Speaker 1: or hybrid And so what I think we're hearing now

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Speaker 1: is that bosses and leaders are saying, well, I can't

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Speaker 1: understand what my staff members are doing because they're not

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Speaker 1: here and I can't see them. And I think there's

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Speaker 1: a year that people are really not working. But we

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Speaker 1: know to your exact point that they were more productive

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Speaker 1: than ever. And there is the sense that if you're

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Speaker 1: in the office that we will have a strong culture.

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Speaker 1: And I firmly believe the workplace culture is about connections

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Speaker 1: and not about presence. No, Listen, everybody talks about the

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Speaker 1: importance of diversity. Uh Men, women, um, you know, all

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Speaker 1: gender if you will, and certainly from different backgrounds when

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Speaker 1: it comes to minorities though, and I know your research

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Speaker 1: gets into for black women. I mean, it's even greater

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Speaker 1: the barriers. Correct, Oh, absolutely, you know, the barriers are

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Speaker 1: very high for women and particularly for women of color. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, black, brown Asian women. They are seeing all

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Speaker 1: of this exponentially and um, and it's really something that

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Speaker 1: we need to pay attention to in our organizations to

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Speaker 1: help all of us thrive. That means that every group

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Speaker 1: has to be able to thrive together. Are there certain

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Speaker 1: industries you know that are that do a better job

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Speaker 1: of this versus others? I mean, is there some industries

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Speaker 1: that maybe you think need to do maybe a better job,

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Speaker 1: you know? I think that there are many organizations that

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Speaker 1: are doing as well. I hear this from my coaching

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Speaker 1: clients and organizations that I work with. So it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily the industry. It's about the leaders who are understanding

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Speaker 1: I can't rely on doing things exactly the way I

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Speaker 1: did them before and saying this is going to require

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Speaker 1: me to rewrite the rules of work. And I'm seeing

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Speaker 1: that fortunately across industries, and that makes me feel hopeful. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The other thing, though, I don't mean to be such

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Speaker 1: a debbie downer, it's just like I said, I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's unfortunate. I do think things are getting better

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Speaker 1: in some regards, but it's still really tough. What happens though.

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Speaker 1: If we see a bit of an economic downturn, that

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Speaker 1: just puts more pressure on this doesn't not Shawna. It

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Speaker 1: does put more pressure on everything. I mean, organizations are

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Speaker 1: being expected to do twice as much with fewer people,

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Speaker 1: and I firmly believe that if we invest in our people,

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Speaker 1: the outcomes will come. It doesn't feel like it makes sense,

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Speaker 1: but again, we're rewriting the rule of work and we're

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Speaker 1: saying that this is possible in the future if we

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Speaker 1: do things differently. All Right, Sean, I thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us. Shana Hawking, a founder of Hawking Leadership,

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Speaker 1: joining us on a crystal clear zoom call from Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: that technology is working, but yeah, it's amazing. I might

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Speaker 1: envy