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Speaker 1: Hither, folks.

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Speaker 2: It is Sunday, April twelfth, and we are going to

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Speaker 2: have this conversation as delicately and respectfully, but Robes, it

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Speaker 2: might need to happen frankly as possible as we welcome

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Speaker 2: you to this episode.

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Speaker 1: Of Amy and TJ with so many.

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Speaker 2: Thoughts in conversations around Eric Swalwell, the California gubernatorial candidate

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Speaker 2: who's now been accused of rape Robes. There are conversations

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Speaker 2: that happen in some circles of the Internet and some

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Speaker 2: homes privately, and these are difficult to have because anytimes

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Speaker 2: you have them, it seems like you're questioning the story

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Speaker 2: of the survivor.

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Speaker 1: If you at.

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Speaker 2: All examine that survivor's behavior, can you how do you?

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Speaker 2: And this is what we're trying to do here on

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Speaker 2: this episode, have that conversation Robes. And it's a tough

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Speaker 2: one to happen these cases.

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Speaker 3: It's really hard because I think most women understand the

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Speaker 3: vulnerability just physically of who we are and when we

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Speaker 3: go out that we are potentially targets. And I think

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Speaker 3: at least most mothers talk to their daughters, maybe fathers

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Speaker 3: talk to their daughters as well about this. I imagine,

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Speaker 3: But it's a conversation I've certainly had with mine after

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Speaker 3: my own personal experiences. I think sometimes they're hard earned experiences,

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Speaker 3: but I have had conversations about them taking responsibility for

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Speaker 3: their behavior to not put themselves in a position to

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Speaker 3: become victimized.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so there that can be controversial.

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Speaker 2: Okay, wait a second, So did you use the word responsibility?

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Speaker 2: I think that's where exactly.

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Speaker 4: Okay, maybe that's a bad word to use.

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Speaker 1: Now that's my question.

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Speaker 2: Does a woman ever, and we're just going to speak

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Speaker 2: women here when we talk about sexual assaults, is a

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Speaker 2: woman ever? Can you ever have a conversation about responsibility?

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Speaker 2: Because suggesting that a woman takes any responsibility for her

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Speaker 2: actions or her behavior seems to be a suggestion, whether

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Speaker 2: intention or not, that she is in some way contributing

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Speaker 2: to what happened to her.

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Speaker 3: Correct Because look, the reason why there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: reasons why it's such a touchy subject because just because

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Speaker 3: you want to dress a certain way or act a

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Speaker 3: certain way, that doesn't mean you're inviting sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: That does all agreement on that, right, But I.

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Speaker 4: Do think somehow there's this suggestion that it does.

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Speaker 3: And let's just make that very clear that that is

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Speaker 3: not at all. As a and as a woman myself

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Speaker 3: who has had to deal with this and then talk

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Speaker 3: to her daughters about it, I understand that's important to

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Speaker 3: make that distinction, that that is not the responsibility of

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Speaker 3: a woman to dress a certain way or to act

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Speaker 3: a certain way.

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Speaker 1: Inviting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, inviting, because no woman wants to be.

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Speaker 3: No woman wants to be raped, No woman wants to

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Speaker 3: be sexually assaulted. No woman wants it to go that far.

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Speaker 3: And you know what, we can be teases if we want,

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Speaker 3: and we can be playful andatious if we want, And

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Speaker 3: that doesn't mean we want to have sex with you.

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Speaker 1: Man.

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Speaker 2: That should be repeated and said as many times. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter even if you don't like that she's being

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Speaker 2: a tease, even it doesn't matter how far she might

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Speaker 2: have suggested whatever.

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Speaker 3: And we might think we want to have sex with

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Speaker 3: you and then change our minds and say, you know what,

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Speaker 3: I actually don't want to have sex with him.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So now we're talking about robes something else in

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Speaker 2: this case in particular, there are details to this case,

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Speaker 2: and again we're talking about the young lady, former staffer

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Speaker 2: who says that Eric Swalwell raped her in an incident

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four at a hotel here in Manhattan.

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Speaker 2: She says Robes that she can't remember much of what

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Speaker 2: happened that night, but she has flashes, is how she

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Speaker 2: put it. She remembers telling him no. She remembers trying

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Speaker 2: to push him off. There was another incident Robes helped

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Speaker 2: me in.

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Speaker 4: The years nineteen.

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Speaker 2: That was one where she says she doesn't remember anything

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Speaker 2: from that night, but described another night of heavy drinking,

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Speaker 2: woke up naked with him in his bedroom, in his

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Speaker 2: hotel room. She says she can't remember any thing from

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Speaker 2: how she got from the bar to the moment she

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Speaker 2: woke up the next morning.

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Speaker 3: But when she woke up, she said she felt the

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Speaker 3: effects of vaginal intercourse, so she knew she had sex.

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Speaker 4: Women know when they've had sex.

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Speaker 2: So these are the two incidents in particular here that

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about, and Robes there, we don't

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Speaker 2: want to look at this and examine this is what

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Speaker 2: she should have done that night, not suggesting that would

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Speaker 2: never suggest no matter how much she drank, she is

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Speaker 2: not responsible for anyone forcing themselves on her at all.

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Speaker 2: Quite frankly, though the law might see it differently. So

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Speaker 2: we don't want to go after and say this is

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Speaker 2: what she should have done. But robes you have, I

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Speaker 2: wanted one of them in particular. You got a nineteen

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Speaker 2: year old daughter in college, and really you have a

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Speaker 2: twenty two to twenty three year old was she twenty

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Speaker 2: three now twenty three? But she is also right in

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Speaker 2: that lane of influence and wanting to climb an industry

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Speaker 2: where sometimes ugly stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yes, she wants to be she wants to be an actress.

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Speaker 3: So yes, that is the classic position where you find

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Speaker 3: yourself in a hungry, youthful, exciting time, but you're desperate

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Speaker 3: to get a break, You're desperate to get a foot

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Speaker 3: in the door. And you know, I was having a

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Speaker 3: conversation with her this weekend about what to anticipate or

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Speaker 3: expect with certain meetings with people who are reaching out

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Speaker 3: to her, who are in a much higher position of

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Speaker 3: power with ties to storied, legacied families, and I have

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Speaker 3: cautioned her and talked to her about her behavior. Yes,

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Speaker 3: because you don't ever want it to be misinterpreted, and

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Speaker 3: you have to as a woman. I'm sorry, but this

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Speaker 3: I know we don't want to put the onus on

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Speaker 3: our daughters or on our young girls. But I don't

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Speaker 3: want to think of it as a responsibility or an onus,

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Speaker 3: but as an empowerment to recognize, to anticipate that this

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Speaker 3: could happen, maybe even as likely to happen, And how

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Speaker 3: you act and how you hold yourself and the boundaries

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Speaker 3: that you have to create can be the difference between

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Speaker 3: becoming a victim and being in a different or being

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Speaker 3: looked at in a different light. It's so tough to say,

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Speaker 3: but as a young woman coming up in an industry

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Speaker 3: that also has been known to prey on young women

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Speaker 3: who are excited and wanting to get far and are

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Speaker 3: looking for that leg up and I hate to use

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Speaker 3: that term, but looking for a way to climb the

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Speaker 3: mountain right.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know if any woman who wants to

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Speaker 4: sleep her way at the top, or who wants to

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Speaker 4: give a guy a blowjob to get a raise. No,

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Speaker 4: no woman wants to do that.

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Speaker 3: And yet somehow it's always kind of said like women

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Speaker 3: are doing this to get ahead. It's about I think,

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Speaker 3: having conversations with ourselves and with our daughters and with

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Speaker 3: young women in our lives about how to anticipate and

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Speaker 3: how to avoid a situation even getting to this point.

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Speaker 2: And we have a situation here, or at least a

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Speaker 2: couple that, no matter what, you would not want your

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Speaker 2: child in the position that this young lady found herself

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Speaker 2: in robes on two occasions. Let's go with the twenty

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Speaker 2: nineteen incident. Okay, she found herself in a position where

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Speaker 2: she is out drinking one on one as a twenty

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Speaker 2: one year old correct with her boss, who is a

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Speaker 2: powerful US congressman, the two of them out drinking heavily

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Speaker 2: at night at a bar, just the two of them, rogues,

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Speaker 2: We're supposed to be able to say that neither one

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Speaker 2: of these folks in that moment, as colleagues, we're doing

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Speaker 2: anything wrong. A boss should be able to go out

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Speaker 2: with a coworker and there not be a problem.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get into the details and the new ones,

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Speaker 2: but on its face, that's supposed to be okay.

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Speaker 3: You said, colleagues, And I'll take issue with that because

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Speaker 3: I actually think you've got a junior staffer twenty one.

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Speaker 3: I mean, she's still in college if she's at twenty one,

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Speaker 3: and what is he in his late thirties.

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Speaker 1: At that point, I said, I was going to get

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Speaker 1: into that. I don't do that yet, Okay.

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Speaker 2: But I'm saying, generally speaking, a boss going out for

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Speaker 2: a drink with an employee, okay, for whatever reason, it

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be a drink, okay, even drinking. And I know

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Speaker 2: you and I have both sat up with a boss

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Speaker 2: before and had drinks, several of them, and I know

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Speaker 2: the dynamic was different because I am the male employee

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Speaker 2: with a male boss, your female employee with a female boss.

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Speaker 2: I know from a distance it looks different, but on

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Speaker 2: the face of it it should be.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: I will tell you I have gone out to dinner

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Speaker 3: with I have gone drinking with bosses who are much

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Speaker 3: older than me. But I knew I was on guard

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Speaker 3: the entire time as a woman.

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Speaker 4: I was.

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Speaker 2: I'm saying, I'm trying to get a baseline here. It

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Speaker 2: should be okay, yes, okay. Now for folks who want

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Speaker 2: to make the argument it was there's a night out, okay, Rodes.

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Speaker 2: It does make a difference, and who the boss is,

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Speaker 2: the age of the boss, the age of the employee,

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Speaker 2: and how and how far down the ladder that employee is.

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Speaker 2: All these things have to be factored in. And with that, now, robes.

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Speaker 2: If your daughter's just saying a boss invited me out

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Speaker 2: for a drink, think I'm gonna go. And that boss

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Speaker 2: of hers is thirty eight and married and she's twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Now tell me what you're going to say to your time.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I've already had this conversation with her, because I

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Speaker 3: have found myself in these positions over the years, and I.

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Speaker 4: Have told them. Go in with suspicion.

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Speaker 3: Don't assume he's there to tell you what a great

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Speaker 3: coworker you are, or what a great employee you are,

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Speaker 3: or how he wants to give you a raise, or

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Speaker 3: he wants to connect you to help you in your career.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure he might say all of those things.

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Speaker 3: You have to have in your back of your mind.

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Speaker 3: And this may be terrible that he has other ideas,

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Speaker 3: that he has another thought in his head, and it

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Speaker 3: might be to get you to sleep with him, and

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Speaker 3: you have to have that in the back of your

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Speaker 3: head the entire time, and you have to shoot it down.

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Speaker 4: Do not flirt back.

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Speaker 3: You can be kind, you can be playful whatever to

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Speaker 3: an extent, but you have to recognize that you unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: are the one who is going to have to create

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Speaker 3: a boundary, and you have to be prepared to do

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Speaker 3: it and practice the language before you go out.

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Speaker 2: And you should never and something you say that, and

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say this repeatedly, folks to the point

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Speaker 2: y'all might get annoyed. This conversation is not a suggestion

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Speaker 2: about the veracity of anything that this woman is alleging

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Speaker 2: against Eric Swollwell, not at all. We're not questioning her story.

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Speaker 2: But there are so many details of the story that

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Speaker 2: certainly you, as a mom of girls who are right

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Speaker 2: in that lane, we had very animated discussion is about

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Speaker 2: here in this house. So we were trying to bring

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Speaker 2: that discussion forward here. But Robes, another part of what

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Speaker 2: you suggest. You said you got to make sure you

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Speaker 2: never give any opening that it's welcome any message that's

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Speaker 2: sent that's a little flirty. Don't sit there's a way

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Speaker 2: you can. And again Robes, you say, well, no, excuse me.

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Speaker 2: This is the problem with that, right, There is such

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Speaker 2: a power imbalance, So if a flirty message comes back,

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Speaker 2: you might not feel comfortable just ignoring it.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh god, he's going to get mad at me.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and here's the problem.

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Speaker 3: I will say this someone like I don't know obviously

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Speaker 3: what happened between Eric Swellwell Swaalwell and his.

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Speaker 4: Former staffer, but I can say that it can and

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Speaker 4: she describes it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I have the language that she used to

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Speaker 3: see an n It feels good when someone powerful and

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Speaker 3: someone who you aspire to be like or a position

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Speaker 3: you'd like to have one day, shines a light on you,

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Speaker 3: makes you feel special, makes you feel golden, makes you

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Speaker 3: feel like you're something to him, And that's how they

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Speaker 3: get sucked in. So the whole point is I try

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Speaker 3: to tell my daughters that is called grooming, that is

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Speaker 3: called manipulation, and you have to recognize it when it's happening.

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Speaker 2: Hey, reckon, but you all are in a like you said, robe,

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Speaker 2: you all in a difficult position, and this is where

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Speaker 2: and we weren't going to talk about this issue. The

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Speaker 2: other incident a previous incident in which she was driving

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Speaker 2: him to an event. This was in tween nineteen as well.

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Speaker 2: He pulls over to her, or has her pull over

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Speaker 2: to a parking lot, just whips it out and asks

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Speaker 2: for oral sex. And she said she complied for a

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Speaker 2: short time before then saying, ooh, somebody's going to see us.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I feel for her.

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Speaker 4: I feel for her in that mom Well, robes.

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Speaker 1: A, what do you tell your daughter? This is for

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Speaker 1: anybody else.

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Speaker 2: Some people hearing this on the outside hear that and go,

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Speaker 2: obviously you say, hell no, you jump out the car,

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Speaker 2: you run, you report him. Obviously you don't do like

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Speaker 2: it seems to other folks that there was a no brainer,

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Speaker 2: easy way. Of course you don't do that. But Rose,

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Speaker 2: this is where the power imbalance come Esin's.

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Speaker 4: That's my point.

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Speaker 3: It's so easy to say that from the outside looking in,

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Speaker 3: but here you are.

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Speaker 4: You're looking up to this guy.

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Speaker 3: You don't want to lose your job, and you don't

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Speaker 3: want to make an enemy out of a powerful congressman.

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Speaker 4: And so you think, oh no, what do I do?

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Speaker 3: And I can see where she felt pressured and found

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Speaker 3: a way to get out of it. To stop it,

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Speaker 3: I would and this probably isn't great advice, but I

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Speaker 3: would have probably dealt with humor, like I know you're kidding,

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Speaker 3: that's hilarious, and kind of just give him an out

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Speaker 3: like that's funny. Obviously you're married, and obviously i'm your

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Speaker 3: junior staffer. So I know you're just playing around and

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Speaker 3: you give him an out.

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Speaker 4: Okay, it's terrible, but that is what I probably would

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Speaker 4: have done.

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Speaker 1: No, I hear what you're saying.

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Speaker 3: This.

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Speaker 1: We don't know what led up to that.

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Speaker 2: We don't, but Robes, getting to that point it was there.

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Speaker 1: Don't excuse me, We don't know.

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Speaker 2: But this is where it comes into play that he

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Speaker 2: was in some level comfortable enough yeah with this was

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Speaker 2: a perfect stranger to him, and he just decides to

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Speaker 2: do this. And this is where Robes, we don't know

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Speaker 2: what the relationship was beforehand, but as we talk about

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Speaker 2: this story, Robes, that was one detail that really just

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Speaker 2: randomly out of nowhere.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 3: I think she described and talked about the flirty messages

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Speaker 3: how it was. It was never necessarily sexual in nature,

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Speaker 3: but when you get flirtier and flirtier and flirtier.

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Speaker 4: This is a slow build and it probably led to.

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Speaker 3: That moment and she probably thought, oh, no, what have

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Speaker 3: I done? Or you know, we don't know what she

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Speaker 3: was thinking.

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Speaker 2: Let's turn quickly to twenty twenty four and we have

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Speaker 2: to be this is all right. The twenty twenty four incident,

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Speaker 2: she reaches out to him So now at this point, Robes,

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Speaker 2: there is no longer a power imbalance.

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Speaker 1: She's not working for him.

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Speaker 2: They haven't had a relationship or continued a relationship or

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Speaker 2: working one for years. And by all the accounts, Robe,

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Speaker 2: you tell me if I'm wrong, they weren't in constant contact,

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Speaker 2: they weren't still in each other's lives in any ways.

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Speaker 3: It seemed as though they kept messaging, like there was

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Speaker 3: a little bit of a communication back and forth. But correct,

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Speaker 3: she was not working for him, and it wasn't like

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Speaker 3: they were constantly texting each other and they were in

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Speaker 3: each other's lives in that way.

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Speaker 4: Not that from what I understand.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not to question her.

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Speaker 2: But the fact is that she is reporting that she

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Speaker 2: was she believe you sexually assaulted by him. In twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 2: five years later, Robes unsolicited, he is speaking here in

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Speaker 2: New York and she reaches out to him to have

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Speaker 2: drinks that night. Correct, this is the guy that she

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Speaker 2: says sexually assaulted her.

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Speaker 4: After a heavy night of drinking.

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Speaker 2: And then she calls him up for a heavy night

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Speaker 2: of drinking. No ropes, not getting into the psychology of

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Speaker 2: survivors and these things that other let other folks do that.

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Speaker 2: But as you're telling your daughters what to do and

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Speaker 2: what not to do, ropes, take out the twenty nineteen incident,

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Speaker 2: even the accident, the idea that she's calling him up

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Speaker 2: after the whatever history they've had to still married man,

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Speaker 2: come out for drinks. He's wrong. Let's say that out loud.

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Speaker 2: I'm asking what you would tell your daughters to do,

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Speaker 2: to not do that.

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Speaker 3: To not call a man who already, according to you,

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Speaker 3: abused his power and put you in a horrific position

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Speaker 3: and victimized you and raped you. If she didn't give consent,

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Speaker 3: that is rape as well. So yes, to reach then

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Speaker 3: out to him. Look and people will tell you the

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Speaker 3: psychology behind it. Maybe she felt rejected, Maybe she felt ashamed.

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Speaker 3: Maybe she felt like if she could have an another

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Speaker 3: encounter with him, it could balance.

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Speaker 4: Out the bad.

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Speaker 3: Like there's a lot of things that could go into

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Speaker 3: her mind where she's thinking, well, maybe if I can

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Speaker 3: just make it all good and all right, I won't

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Speaker 3: feel so awful about what happened, and I can actually

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Speaker 3: like wrap this up with a bow and feel okay

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Speaker 3: about everything.

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Speaker 4: That could have been her mind.

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Speaker 3: Sight She did tell CNN, and this is her quote,

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Speaker 3: I guess I liked the attention. When they asked about

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Speaker 3: why she would go out to drinks with him after

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Speaker 3: all of these allegations she's made against him, and she said,

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Speaker 3: I guess I liked the attention, but I never wanted

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Speaker 3: to sleep with him.

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Speaker 2: Okay, nothing she has done that we have discussed means

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Speaker 2: she asked for contributed to in any way what allegedly

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Speaker 2: happened to her.

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Speaker 1: That is not the suggestion at all robes.

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Speaker 3: But unfortunately, when she says basically the night ended with

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Speaker 3: her not remembering how she left the bar.

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Speaker 4: Look, I have heard my daughter say it. I have

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Speaker 4: had the experience before.

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Speaker 3: When you get that intoxicated, that is the scariest thing

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Speaker 3: a woman could possibly ever do. And I hate to say,

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Speaker 3: do it to herself. And I know sometimes it sneaks

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Speaker 3: up on you and sometimes you're plied with drinks. So hey,

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Speaker 3: let's do a shot. And I'm saying, you can be encouraged.

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Speaker 3: But that is my number one thing to my daughter. Well,

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Speaker 3: there's two things. Never ever ever be alone. Like I

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Speaker 3: would have said, bring a girlfriend with you if you

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Speaker 3: want to, if you want to try to find some closure,

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Speaker 3: or you want to have a conversation with him. Bring

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Speaker 3: a friend with you, like always have someone with you.

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Speaker 3: Number one and number two. You cannot drink that much.

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Speaker 3: You have to be aware, especially if you're with someone

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Speaker 3: who you've had a negative experience with.

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Speaker 4: Please, my God, stay in control of your faculties.

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Speaker 2: So Robes to your point, now, no matter how drunk

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Speaker 2: she got, you don't deserve to be raped. No matter

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Speaker 2: how drunk you decide to get. Nobody around you is

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Speaker 2: then should be forgiven for anything ropes.

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Speaker 4: You increase your chances of it happening.

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Speaker 1: We'll give you that, But it doesn't mean you're responsible

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Speaker 1: for what happened to you? Is what the is? The argument?

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Speaker 2: You can't, I guess it's responsible. It's such a tricky thing.

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Speaker 2: What responsibility do you take for putting yourself in the

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Speaker 2: position versus being responsible for what happened to you? You

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Speaker 2: are not nobody, No one is responsible. Like you can

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Speaker 2: never say she got raped, well, but she was drinking

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Speaker 2: that much.

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Speaker 1: So that is what.

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Speaker 4: Happens in court.

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Speaker 3: And that's why women don't come forward because they know

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Speaker 3: that they they behaved in a way that contributed to

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Speaker 3: the position that they found themselves in that they didn't

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Speaker 3: want to be in that they didn't deserve to be.

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Speaker 4: Say all that again, Please, I don't know if I can.

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Speaker 1: You said it just right, that was exactly right. Damn it.

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Speaker 2: I don't have to go back and really you said

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Speaker 2: it exactly the way. It is about the responsibility. But

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Speaker 2: it's not just folks, how we might have the conversation

397
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Speaker 2: is not just about what her friends might think, what

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Speaker 2: the public might think. There's a legal reason that a

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Speaker 2: lot of women might not come forward because the law,

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Speaker 2: at least in New York State, has a loophole that suggests,

401
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Speaker 2: if you got drunk voluntarily what happened to you, we

402
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,880
Speaker 2: can't charge the other guy for we'll explain this loophole

403
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,199
Speaker 2: and why they're trying to fix it, and why the

404
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,360
Speaker 2: Manhattan DA might have a very difficult time bringing charges

405
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:29,920
Speaker 2: against Eric Swollwell, all right, continuing here on Amy and TJ. Road,

406
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Speaker 2: this conversation all goes down to consent. Right, did you

407
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Speaker 2: did she give consent for sex or not? We do

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Speaker 2: know rogues you don't sex or consent sometimes can be

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00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 2: denied like, well she didn't say no, Well doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: she didn't. Doesn't mean she said yes, So consent isn't

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Speaker 2: just a matter sometimes of a woman saying no. It

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Speaker 2: could be an implied insent, It could be all kinds

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Speaker 2: of other things, So we can't even harp on that

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Speaker 2: did she say no or not.

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Speaker 3: On college campuses, you have people sometimes actually saying you

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Speaker 3: need to get a yes before, and it kind of

417
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Speaker 3: people kind of make a joke out of it, but

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Speaker 3: they really are trying to just hammer it home because

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Speaker 3: a lot of times what we're talking about does happen

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Speaker 3: on college campuses or drunk nights, blackout drunk nights where

421
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 3: you know kids are drinking to get wasted, and so yes, Unfortunately,

422
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 3: these types of incidents can happen, and again very different

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Speaker 3: because it's very different power structure here when you're talking

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Speaker 3: about two kids who are both twenty two years old

425
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Speaker 3: in an experience, but yet you still have some of

426
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Speaker 3: the same issues whether or not a girl was able

427
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Speaker 3: or a young woman was able to give consent, And

428
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 3: does that mean that the young man in that kind

429
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 3: of a situation, who might have been equally drunk, Where

430
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Speaker 3: is his responsibility?

431
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Speaker 4: Where is her responsibility?

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Speaker 3: This is a This type of crime is one of

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Speaker 3: the most difficult to prosecute, one of the most difficult

434
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Speaker 3: to prove, because it truly is a he said, she said,

435
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Speaker 3: And if both parties are wasted, what do you do

436
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Speaker 3: with that?

437
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 2: And the laws are different in different place. This will

438
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: stick with New York. Robes in particular, consent consent. This

439
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 2: bulls down to consent. If she did not give consent

440
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 2: and he moved forward, that is a rate by law. However,

441
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 2: who can or cannot give consent? Who can't Robes, anybody

442
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 2: under seventeen? That makes sense the law here. Anybody who's

443
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 2: mentally disabled, that makes sense. Also, who can't give consent?

444
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 2: Anyone who is mentally incapacitated or physically helpless?

445
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

446
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 4: Here?

447
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 2: You go, Robes, And this is where the issue is.

448
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,919
Speaker 2: Mentally incapacitated, according to New York law, means that a

449
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: person is rendered temporarily incapable of appraising or controlling his

450
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: or her conduct owing to the influence of a narcotic

451
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 2: or intoxicating substance administered to him or her without his

452
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 2: or her consent.

453
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 3: So that's being drugged, having something slipped into your drink,

454
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 3: that sort of situation.

455
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 2: Robes, they call this the voluntary intoxication exclusion. They call

456
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: it a pole, and it's the suggestion. And this is

457
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 2: why some prosecutors won't even bring a case forward. You

458
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 2: voluntarily got messed up. Nobody made you drink that stuff.

459
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 2: You kept ordering those drinks on your own. You are

460
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 2: responsible for your behavior. So now you want to tell

461
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 2: me that this guy that you woke up in bed

462
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,360
Speaker 2: with you that you can't really remember what happened. You

463
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: want to us to prosecute and put him in jail,

464
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 2: And we're not going to even bring the case because

465
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 2: you voluntarily got that drunk. They have been fighting Robes

466
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: for years to change his root loophole in the New

467
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 2: York state legislature. It has been going through the past

468
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: couple of years and it is stuck in committee right

469
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 2: now and has not come out.

470
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 4: And I can see why with that law. And I

471
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 4: believe that her first.

472
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 3: Allegation of rape happened in California or not in New York, correct,

473
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 3: But this second incident in New York so interesting.

474
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 4: So you hear that loophole, which I was not even

475
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 4: aware of.

476
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 3: But when you have her or waking up with flashes

477
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: remembering she says pushing him off her and saying no,

478
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 3: and he didn't stop That may be what the Manhattan DA.

479
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 4: Is focusing on.

480
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 3: So, yes, she was wasted by her own voluntary choice.

481
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 3: She chose to drink, She chose to go to a

482
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 3: second bar and to heavily drink, And she admits to

483
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 3: all of that.

484
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 4: She doesn't remember leaving the bar. She doesn't remember how

485
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 4: she got into the hotel room. But she woke up

486
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 4: in those moments, probably of pain and confusion and what

487
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 4: the hell is happening, And she remembered pushing him off.

488
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 4: She remembered telling him to stop. She remembered telling him no.

489
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 3: That may be that is perhaps what distinguishes this case

490
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 3: from maybe the twenty nineteen case or any other incident

491
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 3: she describes, because she says she does remember telling him

492
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 3: to stop.

493
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: Okay, The other part of that is physically helpless. That

494
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: means a person is unconscious or for any other reason,

495
00:23:53,800 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 2: is physically unable to communicate unwillingness to enact. There's a

496
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: high bar here for this, and there's a reason for it.

497
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: This is now not just that he said she said.

498
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: This is he said, and she said just a little

499
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: bit of what she can remember that is not a

500
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: whole lot. I saw a flash, I and she's standing by.

501
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 2: She said no, and remember some something physical from him.

502
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 2: She said she even had a bruise or something. He

503
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 2: had grabbed her by the waist or she has.

504
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 3: That she had bruises on her body and was bleeding vaginally.

505
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 3: That that's how I guess rough the sex was. I mean,

506
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 3: that's that's that's tough. However you imagine say the DA

507
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 3: brings this charge, right, say this ends up going to

508
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 3: a jury. You start looking at all the events, and

509
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 3: this is the tough situation for a lot of women.

510
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 3: This is why a lot of women don't come forward

511
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 3: because when you start looking at what happened beforehand, and

512
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: I felt I actually was really impressed that she was

513
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 3: completely honest and talked about how she was blackout drunk,

514
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 3: talked about that she did yes, start to to give

515
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 3: slowwell oral sex like she is admitting to her role,

516
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: flirtatious texts and sending him nude pictures back and forth

517
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: on Snapchat. She claims she sent him nudes, he sent

518
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 3: her pictures of his penis. So she was participating in

519
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 3: a lot of behavior that probably would not look good

520
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: to a jury when it comes to them saying yes

521
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 3: she was raped. Now, you can do all of those things,

522
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 3: as I pointed out, and I fully acknowledge, yes, we

523
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 3: should be able to flirt and maybe even think about

524
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 3: wanting to have sex with someone, or consider, hey, maybe

525
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 3: I would like to be his mistress.

526
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 4: I don't know what was going in her mind.

527
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: Maybe she had some of those thoughts, or maybe she

528
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 3: just damn well loved the attention, which she admitted that

529
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 3: that just felt so good.

530
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 4: She didn't want to have sex with him.

531
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 3: She liked the flirtation, she liked that feeling of this

532
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: powerful man thinking she was hot. I get all of that.

533
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean she deserved to be raped. It doesn't

534
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 3: mean that she should have to have sex with him.

535
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean any of those things. However, my point is,

536
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 3: when I talk to my daughters, it is about empowerment.

537
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: It is about making sure you recognize that this could

538
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 3: happen to you. And it's not that it should happen

539
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 3: to you, or that you deserved for it to happen

540
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 3: to you, but that it could. And when it does,

541
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 3: you get put in a position that is untenable, and

542
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: now you have to ask yourself.

543
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 4: And that's my point.

544
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 3: What can I tell my daughters about how to avoid this,

545
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: how to give themselves the best chance of never finding

546
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 3: themselves in this position. That's the conversations that I'm having

547
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 3: that I have had with my daughters for years now.

548
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: It is you don't want to be in there, he said,

549
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 2: She said, you don't want to end up there and robes.

550
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: I don't know if this will maybe this bill now,

551
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure I haven't seen yet, but I'm sure they

552
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: are going to try to bring this back up. The

553
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: sponsor is this bill now, because this is meant to

554
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: do that thing. They actually are saying that they want

555
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 2: this to prohibit because defendants have been using intoxication of

556
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: the victim as a defense in sex crimes, and it's worked,

557
00:26:59,160 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: and the law right.

558
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: Now allows it.

559
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: It supports that because it asks about conduct like you're

560
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: incapable of giving a praising a situation and controlling your conduct.

561
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: That could mean a yes or no.

562
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 3: And the other point being, and we've talked about this,

563
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 3: and I am not applying this to Eric Slowell Swallwell

564
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: at all, but when the attacker or the person who

565
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 3: is being accused of raping, if he is just as

566
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: wasted as she is, where is the culpability and that

567
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: is the gray area that so many courtrooms and so

568
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: many prosecutors have to weigh and deal with and think about.

569
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: And that's why this type of violent act is the

570
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 3: most difficult to prosecute.

571
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 4: It.

572
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: It's awful, but it's an opportunity that we should have

573
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 2: a moment while a conversation is being had. Now, just look,

574
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: the criminal stuff will play out, the political stuff will

575
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 2: play out, but there's an opportunity here for just to

576
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: take a moment and sit down and have a calm

577
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: and with.

578
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 3: Your sons too. This isn't a conversation just to have

579
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: with your daughters. This is it maybe an even more

580
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: important one. I feel bad that that's just now being mentioned,

581
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: but yes, it's a very important conversation to how with

582
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 3: your sons as well.

583
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: Rogues don't end up in this well, you could end

584
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: up in a bad spot as a male, as a

585
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: guy as well. Someone who hasn't done anything necessarily wrong

586
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: or had the intention of doing something wrong that is

587
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: interpreted by somebody from a distance as being something wrong.

588
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: Just don't do this. Oh my god, you've seen me.

589
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: Even when the folks deliver food to the uh to

590
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: my hotel room room service. I stand at the door

591
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 2: holding the door, and they say, oh, I got it. Nope,

592
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: I'm standing right. I never close a door, and I'm

593
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: alone with anybody who could possibly suggest anything.

594
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 1: And that, he says, she said, isn't that crazy?

595
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 4: Yes, I would never think about that.

596
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: You wouldn't know. You've seen me do this where I

597
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: will not. I get room service and I stand at

598
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: that door propping it open. Go ahead, put the food

599
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: wherever you want to in the room. But I am

600
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: not going to be in a position where I am

601
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: behind a closed door with somebody I don't know.

602
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: Great, this is the stuff we have to think about.

603
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: Is that crazy?

604
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: No, But we should tell our sons that you should

605
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: tell your daughters that it's okay. But man, you don't

606
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: want to end up in a position that either one

607
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: of these folks who right wrong. We don't want to

608
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: do it right and wrong. He should have and she

609
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 2: should have. We don't want. But both of them could

610
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: have done something different to where this story didn't happen.

611
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: Who do you want to say, is more culpable him

612
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: for pulling his dick out on the side of the road.

613
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 4: Yes, Yes, because a hundred because he was her boss.

614
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 4: She is and he's married with three kids.

615
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: Yes, nothing, he period, no question, point blank done.

616
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: Done.

617
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: But I also and you could have also advised your

618
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: daughters about something to where if the guy you did

619
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: work for sent this message or did pull his dick out.

620
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, unfortunately, we have to assume the worst.

621
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: I have to have that conversation.

622
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 3: As women, I have learned this, and you just you

623
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: have to assume the worst. It's so strange. I was

624
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 3: having this very conversation with Ava this weekend and not

625
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,959
Speaker 3: even because of this, and it's something you know that.

626
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: I just think it's an important conversation that we all

627
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: need to have with our kids.

628
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: That's funny you were having it before this even came up,

629
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: just so happened to be having it. Well, folks, we

630
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: always appreciate you spending some time with us. We're keeping

631
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: a close eye on this Swallowell story. Also, be honest,

632
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: Robes was like, hey, we better, we better get this

633
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: one up early because the story is moving so quickly

634
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: that there could be an update and we have to change.

635
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: Well. Yeah, we have the Manhattan DA asking for other

636
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 3: victims to come forward, so who.

637
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 4: Knows how this is headed.

638
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: All right, but we always appreciate you spending some time

639
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: with us wherever you might be on this Sunday. Hope

640
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: you are enjoying yourself and having a good day, but

641
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 2: thanks for spending some time with us on TJ, that's

642
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: Robot Talks.

643
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 4: Hi