WEBVTT - The Hellhole 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.840 Dear Governor is a production of I Heart Media and 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.720 three Months Media. If you are moved by Jarvis Masters 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.280 and his thirty years struggle on san Quentin's death row, 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.760 and you'd like to support his cause, please consider signing 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.840 a petition on his behalf. Visit free Jarvis dot org 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.160 slash podcast to sign your name to an open letter 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:26.120 to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Dear Governor Newsom, Dear Mr 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:31.640 Governor Newsom. This is an open letter to Governor Gavin Newsom. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:44.120 Dear Governor Newsom. Public san Quentin calls it the Adjustment Center. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:49.520 Orange County, California jails call it disciplinary housing. Pelican Bay 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:53.760 calls it the shoe or security housing unit. The practice 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:58.200 of solitary confinement goes by many names, including disciplinary confinement, 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:03.560 security housing, and restricted housing, all our euphemisms to soften 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:08.119 the harsh and tortuous reality of solitary confinement. A state 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:12.520 sanctioned system that forces citizens into cramped, windowless cells for 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.440 twenty three to twenty four hours a day, sometimes for 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.240 weeks at a time, months at a time, or, in 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:22.840 Jarvis Master's case, decades at a time. It's real small, 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.480 it's real small, and if you stand up, if you 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.840 five eleven or taller, you know, m can reach the ceiling. 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.240 You stand up in the middle of you sell both 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.920 sides the arms. You probably only need one arm to 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.319 test the other side. It's very small. There's a stink 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.240 of the toy in look back, and there's a little 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.120 vent like under the sink that host to suck in 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:48.760 the air with the son it does. They have lights. 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:53.040 They have sockets, two sockets for a TV. In the radio, 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.680 they have shells. Did you have a TV or radio 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:01.880 down down there? Yeah? Yeah, it. They were giving them 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:06.080 out black and white televison. Remember black and white television? 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:11.960 Do you remember those? I do? Do I remember my 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:20.920 first one? Okay, remedies had a little screwing up in 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.440 the middle of it. Yep. So yeah, I had. I 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.160 had a TV and I had a radio, and so 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:32.040 did everyone else. They basically didn't want you to study. 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.160 They didn't want you to think. They gave you a 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.280 TV and hope you watched it day in and down. 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:45.639 So you're more dangerous if you're educated. You know, they 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.440 didn't want you studying. There were times when I first 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.960 got here, there's there was a lot of books. If 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.919 they caught it in and they saw those books in yourself. 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:59.480 You go straight to the whole. So you couldn't even 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.720 have a book in yourself. There were certain books that 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:10.320 you couldn't have. Revolutionaries, whether you're talking about George Jacks 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:16.760 and a Phenan or cast Row or anything that was 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.400 with a socialist conscious, you couldn't have those books. Say so, 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.240 more often than not, those who are sentenced to solitary 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.320 are denied not only certain books, but phone calls, contact visits, 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:33.160 and recreational or educational training other than the exercise yard, 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.240 where other programs or classes or anything that you guys 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:42.400 were entitled to participate in. No classes, no anything. The 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:44.920 only thing you can probably do is sign up to 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.760 go to the law libry. The only let you go 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.400 to the law librries, because you had a constitutional life. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.600 To go to the law librarian. You shall at three 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:57.800 times a week. You may order some books. People can 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.080 order books for you. You have Kelly's, you have radios. 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:07.200 You allow one package care pactage from from now side 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:12.200 every years. You know, the debate around it is how 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.400 do you define torture? But if if you define it 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.800 as the needless infliction of pain, then it is certainly 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.760 that Craig Haney, who was on the last episode, as 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.560 a social psychologist and a professor at the University of California, 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.640 Santa Cruz, who has done groundbreaking research on the psychological 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:37.160 impact of solitary confinement. Is pain which is often long lasting, irreversible, 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.040 and it is pain which sometimes can be fatal and 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.480 for most people, that's where torture is. The a c 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.000 l U has had its sites on the unjust nature 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.719 of solitary confinement for years. Long term isolation their website says, 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:57.000 costs too much, does nothing to rehabilitate prisoners, and exacerbates 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.280 mental illness or even causes it in prisoner is who 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.800 were healthy when they entered solitary Why do you think 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.159 the US still uses that practice? Is it just to 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.240 break spirits? Is just a punitive thing that the proponents 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:16.039 of solitary confinement? Why do they continue this practice? I 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:20.479 think I think there there are mixed motivations. I think 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.440 there are some people who do it out of a 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:28.119 failure of imagination. They can't think of any better way 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.599 to control prisoners who they think need to be controlled. 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.080 And this is you know the old saying, if if 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.760 all you have is a hammer, and everything looks like 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.400 a nail. It's the only way you can think of 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:46.000 trying to shape prisoners behavior is to threats and intimidation 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.720 and ultimately punishment, And if that still doesn't work, then 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.960 you continue to escalate the punishment and do it more 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.440 and more, even though it would appear that it's counterproductive, 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:00.479 you can't think of anything else to do. Thankly, I 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.000 think in some instances it has been used, as you 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.640 described the moment ago, to break people's spirits. I think 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.880 for some correctional officials, the fact that it's painful and 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:17.400 perhaps for many prisoners, even damaging, perhaps even irreversibly damaging, 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:23.039 is an unintended consequence. Some of them, I think, wish 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.520 you didn't do that, But they use in any way 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.840 because they don't know what else to do. But then 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.159 I also think there are a category of officials who 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:36.599 do it because it's destructive. I don't think that characterizes 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:39.680 all of them, but I've encountered people who have put 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:44.240 people in solitary confinement because they wanted to break them 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:47.760 and won't let them out because they're not yet broken enough. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.440 And yes, that's happened, you know. I've seen that happen. 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:56.039 I think there are mixed motivations for its continued use. Yeah, 0:06:56.160 --> 0:07:00.600 what are some of the physical traumas the people endure 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.320 as a result of solitary confinement without the light, without 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:09.240 the human touch. Is there a physical destruction that happens? 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:11.680 You know what, we're beginning to understand that that it 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:16.559 is not just psychological and anything is profoundly psychologically damaging people. 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.080 But there's also a lot of research which has now 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.160 been done outside of prisons in jails. You know, it's 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.880 hard to do research in prisons and jail a hard 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:27.960 to get access to them, hard to get hard to 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.360 get even into the places, let alone to actually have 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.360 access to the people who are confined there. But we 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:38.640 know that isolation in the world at large as physical 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.520 as well as psychologically negative consequences on people. And so 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.560 there's been research that suggests that people who are exposed 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:52.160 to social isolation and loneliness are at medical risk in 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.200 a way that is equivalent to other kinds of medical 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.679 risks like smoking. That is to say, they get sick 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:04.080 at higher rates and their mortality is affected negatively. That's 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.520 how dangerous it is to people's physical well being. And 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.360 then The psychological dangers are many and varied, and they 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.200 run the gamut. They run the gamut from depression, which 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.720 is perhaps the most common reaction that people have to 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:22.080 it to a kind of anxiety which people can't control. 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.840 They find themselves nervous and anxious and unable to sleep, 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.560 to psychosis, I mean where people lose their really lose 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.520 their bearings, They lose the sense of who they are 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.679 so much of who we are. It's interesting this has 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.560 become much more of an issue for the population at 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:41.080 large now that we're all in isolation essentially. You know, 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.680 you hear people talking about not knowing who they are, 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:48.040 being disoriented, losing touch with themselves, losing touch not just 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.040 with their families that they can't see, but losing touch 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:52.960 with themselves, not being able to do the things that 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.920 they ordinarily do or get joy from. Much has been 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.360 written about how social distancing and isolation has been hard 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.920 on the psyche of Americans. The CDC reported at the 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.880 end of last year that the prevalence of anxiety tripled 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.319 from March to June, and depression has risen four times 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.120 in that time period. Multiply that times a thousand, and 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.960 that's what solitary confinement as to people, because people in 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:22.880 solitary confinement don't have the options we have to distract ourselves. 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.599 They don't have access to to various kinds of things 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.439 that are still interesting even though they don't involve people 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:34.000 solitary confinement of deprived prisoners of most of those things 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.839 as well. And we all know that our own isolation 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.880 is being done for a medical purpose. It's medically necessary 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.040 and it won't last forever, even though it's certainly gone 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:49.280 on most as it would. But you know, prisoners in 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:53.839 solitary confinement on an indefinite basis, they're not there for 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.200 anything good. From their perspective, it's not as though it's 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.959 a that the pain that they're experiencing is for so noble, 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.960 ultimately good end. And they also many times don't know 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.200 when it's going to end. They don't have any any 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.800 end date that they can look forward to or any 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.080 progress that they can see. So the Unlock the Box 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:17.880 campaign they are a group they're about abolishing solitary and 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.959 they said that there's been a five increase in the 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.319 use of solitary during the days of COVID. Does this 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.880 resonate truth to you? And well, I know it's true. 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.000 I know it's true because I've been I mean, they've 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.240 been involved in in um lighting declarations. Trying to reverse 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:42.120 that trend, prison systems have resorted to imposing forms of 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:47.559 solitary confinement, but labeling and medical quarantine or medical isolation 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:53.480 or lockdowns that are designed to impose social distancing by 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:58.480 simply keeping people separating their cells um And you know, 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:02.160 while on the one man, I understand the motivation to 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.199 keep people medically healthy, what they're not taking into account 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:11.920 is how psychologically unhealthy environment they're creating, which, you know, 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:13.760 if you harken back to what we were talking about 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:19.360 earlier about isolation actually having medical physical consequences on people 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.840 in the long run, we actually may be making people 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:27.240 less resilient in the face of COVID nineteen. I mean, 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:32.120 because people deteriorate physically as well as mentally when they're 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:36.000 kept in isolation. So the notion that you can make 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.880 everything great just by locking everybody in their cell first 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.120 of all, is probably medically naive. That's not going to 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:47.080 work because clearly people have contact with staff members who 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.360 are coming in and going every day, so that's not 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:55.920 an impermeable safeguard against them closure to COVID nineteen, And 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.400 it also doesn't take into account the negative psychological consequences 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.560 are keeping form isolation and none of which is being 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:20.000 taken into account in many correctional facilities prior to COVID. 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.160 As late as the summer of twenty nineteen, approximately sixty 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.120 thou imprisoned men and women in the US were held 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.880 in isolation for an average of twenty two hours a 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.040 day for fifteen days, and a significant percentage of those 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:39.800 restricted to solitary confinement had serious mental illness. My name 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.280 is Dolores Canalis. I am co founder of California Families 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.960 Against Solitary Confinement. We organize with family members to expose 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.959 the use of solitary confinement and to eventually hopefully end 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.959 the use of solitary confinement and the draconian conditions. Now, 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.120 you have an interesting personal story, and that's really kind 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.839 of what drew you to this work. Well, yes, absolutely, 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.240 I began getting incarcerated at eighteen years old. And when 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.960 I first got incarcerated, I did have a drug addiction 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.080 and then I kept going back. It was through recidivism. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.480 So I do have an extensive arrest history. But It 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:17.760 was all behind a drug addiction. You know. Now I 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.320 do have nineteen years sobriety. The very first time I 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.840 ever did get arrested, there was a juvenile, as is 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.040 a juvenile, but I was let out immediately. I only 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.920 stayed twenty four hours. But the first thing, you know, 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.520 I noticed, of course, besides being stripped naked, was being 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.600 thrown in a cell all by myself. So that was 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:39.720 actually my first experience with solitary confinement. They won't refer 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.040 to it as solitary confinement, but at that time, it 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.960 was just these individual single cells. What did they call it, 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.360 adjustment center or they just called it like the housing unit. 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:51.840 And and this is one thing that I always attempt 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.440 to convey to people, is we know about the solitary 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.240 confinement that we refer to as the shoe, the security 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.320 housing unit. We know about admit strait of segregation which 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.400 is also solitary confinement, and different types of units that 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:11.199 they referred to, but oftentimes these cells are built so 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.080 that you are in a form of isolation, and this 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:19.200 is throughout incarceration. I just remember the absolute feeling of 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.400 despair and hopelessness when I was put in there as 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.960 a youth. There was absolutely nothing in that room. There 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.440 wasn't a book or a TV or anything to occupy 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.680 my thoughts in my mind. Jarvis, So he was in 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.080 the adjustment center or solitary for twenty two years straight. 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.800 And he said, and I believe this to be true. 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:41.840 The only thing that really kept him saying, because he 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.000 is a genuinely joyful individual, and the only thing that 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.520 had really kept him saying was his meditation practice. So 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.280 when you were in for prolonged periods of time, what 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.760 did you think, what did you do? Where did you 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.160 go in your mind? How did you survive? It is 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.520 definitely having the support of people on the outside and 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.000 that communication. And then I would get weekly visits, even 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.400 though my visits were only fourty minutes behind glass. My 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:12.640 mom used to drive out there, and then you know, 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:14.840 also several of my friends. I used to drive out 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.480 there just to get me out of myself, because you 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:18.960 would get out of your son and then you had 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.560 to be put in a van and driven to where 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.760 the visiting room was. So it was like a little 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.920 out here, you know. So so that was one of 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.080 I think one of the main things that connection with 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:33.080 family and then reading and then the other women in 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.960 solitary along with me. You know, we used to yell 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.000 at our doors or when we go to yard time, 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:41.520 and we'd be able to talk through the chain link fence. 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.320 We'd have those few moments of being able to talk 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.960 to the chain link fence. And I think definitely, you know, 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.120 the meditation, the books that I read at the time, 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.560 I would read a lot on recovery, on you know, meditation. 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.080 I read Sermon on the Mountain. They're you know, the 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:02.120 big book of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.240 just trying to read a lot of things like that. 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.080 So a typical day was I always used to get 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.800 up in the morning. You know, we get our breakfast trays, 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.760 get up in the morning, take a bird bath. You 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.160 have to use your sink right there, you know, comb 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.520 my hair, get dressed, get ready. Did you have a 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.160 mirror to see yourself. Yeah, it's one of those mirrors 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.800 that it's not a real mirror metal. It's like, yeah, 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:29.760 you look real blurry. It's one of those, you know, 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:31.640 so it kind of gives you the illusion of you're 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.760 looking in a mirror. And uh so, you know, I'd 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.640 get up, get dressed, get ready, Uh, there were times 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.560 and we'd have conversations in the event. We'd be able 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.640 to talk through the events and y'all through the vents 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:46.520 and have conversations in our events, maybe share about letters 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.880 that we got, things like that. Even for dinner sometimes 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.680 I used to literally like just get ready for dinner. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:55.960 One time, I even, like, you know, put a sheet 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:57.920 around me like it was a dress, and you know, 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.200 just getting ready and pretending like I'm have like make Alaska's. 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:05.400 And then while many are irreversibly broken by the prolonged 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.480 isolation of solitary, some like Jarvis, have been successful. It's 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.400 staving off those effects. I asked Professor Haney, what qualities 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.920 and practices help these individuals to cope and come out 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.760 on the other side undamaged. The prisoners that I see 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.560 who were most successful at warding off the worst of 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:29.400 these experiences, the worst consequences of these experiences. And it's 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.520 a it's a three part it's a three part program. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.119 The forest is to take it seriously. I mean, the 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.640 people who worry me are the people who say, this 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.680 isn't bothering me, it's it's nothing, it's and the people 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:42.880 vary in terms of the degree in which they are 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.840 harmed by it. That's certainly true. But people who don't 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.399 take it seriously are at risk of being affected by 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.280 it in ways that they don't recognize or notice. So 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.040 people who are successful at we're standing or resisting it, 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.800 take it seriously, understand that they are there's surviving in 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.200 the face of what is a psychological assault on who 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.800 they are, and that they have to figure out ways 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:12.440 to resist it psychologically. So it's it's acknowledge it. Then 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:17.720 impose a structure on what is otherwise the emptiness of 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.080 the time that you're serving. I mean, one of the 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:22.840 things that prisoners tell you in these places is there's 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.200 no day or night. I mean, even though you can technically, 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.040 you know, you might be able to see the sunlight 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.560 or whatever, in some places you can't even do that, 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.040 but there's no real routine. There's no Every day is 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.960 like the day before and the day after, and you 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.040 have there's very little that you can do that you 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.159 have to do, and so you have to create a 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:48.119 structure for yourself. And some, you know, very successful prisoners, 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.680 successful in surviving this environment, create a very rigid structure 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:57.320 for themselves that they insist on imposing on themselves. You 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.119 get up at a certain time, you clean yourself at 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.320 a certain time, you read for a certain number of hours, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.120 you you write letters at a certain period of time, 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.920 You exercise a certain you know, you have an exercise 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:15.440 routine that you scrupulously follow, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. To impose 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.840 order on disorder, to impose structure and otherwise a kind 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:25.159 of empty, chaotic experience that you can get lost in. 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.320 And then the third thing that successful people do, again 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:35.119 successful in surviving this environment reasonably intact, is to overcome 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.120 the acep reality of it in whatever way they can 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:45.560 write letters, have visits, reach out, create as much of 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:50.080 a social world as you can, despite the prison systems 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.520 imposing on you as much of an a social world 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.679 as as it can, so you circumvent that and in 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.439 whatever way you can. You know, I know with clients 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.600 of mine who who were in isolation, when they're reaching 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.280 a crisis stage is when they cut off visits, when 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.919 they when they want to see people anymore. That's a 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.440 sign to me that this their their ability to relate 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:21.960 to other people's atrophy. And people are now becoming they're 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:27.440 now coming to represent and a versus stimulus if you will, uh, 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.840 And that's problematic and you have to do what you 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:34.240 can to to reverse that. We talked to Dolores Kenalis. 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:38.040 She's the co founder of the California Families Against Solitary Confinement. 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:39.879 She says that she knows of you and your work 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.560 and and obviously they are a big advocate for abolishing 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.960 solitary Do you think that's something that's going to happen 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:50.560 nationally in our lifetime? I do, you know, And I 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:55.520 have friends who think on naive for saying that I do, 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.200 because I think there has been in the last ten 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:06.720 to fifteen years enough science around not just the harmfulness 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:10.800 of solitary confinement per se, but the harmfulness of social 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:15.920 isolation and loneliness in the world at large. It's regarded 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:21.680 internationally as a public health crisis, and whatever form it 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.240 takes in the world at large, it is much much 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.359 worse than solitary confinement. So I think the as as 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:32.520 we become increasingly aware as as a population that this 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.680 is harmful for anybody. And now you know, as we've 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:40.280 had an opportunity to experience ourselves, it doesn't feel good 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:44.840 and it's destabilizing for all of us, and it's noticeable. 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.359 You can it's tangible for us now. I think the 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.760 notion that we would subject people to this imprisonment in 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.119 addition to all the other deprivations which they're experiencing in prison, 0:21:56.040 --> 0:22:00.000 is something that is increasingly questioned by much, much large 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.720 your numbers of people who have had just a little 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.080 bit a glimmer of insight into what's this like in 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.840 their own day to day lives, we can only imagine 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.400 what it would be like for somebody like Jarvis enduring 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:16.600 this for not just months or years, but decades. Up next, 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:19.240 a recent shift in the way prisons are contending with 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.840 solitary confinement and why it gives Professor Hainey hope for 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:38.960 a more humane future in our prison systems. The other 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.000 reason I'm optimistic about this is that I think in 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:46.720 many parts around the country, prison systems have gun to 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.639 think of alternatives. I think, what what we We've used 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:56.480 solitary confinement largely because there was no pressure on systems 0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:00.080 to do anything differently, and correctional systems were not a 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:07.040 creative about figuring out responses to disciplinary problems and prison 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:11.120 violence that did not involve throwing people in an isolation cell, 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:14.480 and I think increasingly, over the years and different parts 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:18.679 of the country, systems have become much more innovative and 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.119 creative and humane in terms of how they deal with 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:25.040 those problems. It's not as widespread as it should be, 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.200 and most places have not going remotely as far as 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.159 they should, but they're at least grappling with the issue. 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.600 They're trying to figure out better ways. The whole issue 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:36.960 of I mean this doesn't apply to drivers, but the 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:41.240 whole issue of who's in solitary confinement and the fact 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.000 that in most prison systems a disproportionate number of the 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:47.080 people who are there are mentally ill, and of any 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:49.760 grip that should not be placed in solitary confinement, the 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.600 mentally ill or at the top of the list, yet 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:56.880 disproportionate numbers of them are there. They're there for various reasons, 0:23:56.880 --> 0:24:00.840 but largely because they're Their mental illness makes difficult, if 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:04.199 not impossible, for them to follow the myriad rules and 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:07.640 regulations of a prison environment. They're easily provoked, so they 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:10.760 easily get in trouble, and prison systems throw up their 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:13.960 hands and instead of dealing with the mental health problem, 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:18.600 discipline them as though they're willfully violating the prison rules 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.840 and regulations, and that needs to be I think addressed 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:24.160 head on, and many systems are beginning to do that, 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:28.479 so that what I just said is something that I 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:33.520 think many prison officials now understand in a much more 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:37.120 serious way than you know, even a few years ago, 0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:41.359 and they're taking steps to deal with mental illness in 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:44.320 prison systems in a way that they didn't before. That 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:47.600 does not involve putting people in solitary confinement where they're 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:55.040 likely to deteriorating to compensate even more. Do you have 0:24:55.119 --> 0:25:01.280 any PTSD from solitary Nothing that has been diagnosed by 0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:05.639 medical but definitely things that I see in myself. I 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:08.480 start to get real anxious at times, and I'll feel 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:11.400 like I have to you know, when with a big crowd. 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:13.359 That will start to make me nervous, and I'll go 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:16.320 off by myself. And you know what is interesting, there 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:20.040 was a convening of sorts with Craig Haney. He's done 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:22.200 a lot of work around the issues of solitary He's 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:26.200 from the northern California area. He actually worked on Jarvis's 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.600