1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Dear Governor is a production of I Heart Media and 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: three Months Media. If you are moved by Jarvis Masters 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: and his thirty years struggle on san Quentin's death row, 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: and you'd like to support his cause, please consider signing 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: a petition on his behalf. Visit free Jarvis dot org 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: slash podcast to sign your name to an open letter 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Dear Governor Newsom, Dear Mr 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: Governor Newsom. This is an open letter to Governor Gavin Newsom. 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: Dear Governor Newsom. Public san Quentin calls it the Adjustment Center. 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: Orange County, California jails call it disciplinary housing. Pelican Bay 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: calls it the shoe or security housing unit. The practice 12 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: of solitary confinement goes by many names, including disciplinary confinement, 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: security housing, and restricted housing, all our euphemisms to soften 14 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 1: the harsh and tortuous reality of solitary confinement. A state 15 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: sanctioned system that forces citizens into cramped, windowless cells for 16 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: twenty three to twenty four hours a day, sometimes for 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: weeks at a time, months at a time, or, in 18 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: Jarvis Master's case, decades at a time. It's real small, 19 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: it's real small, and if you stand up, if you 20 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: five eleven or taller, you know, m can reach the ceiling. 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: You stand up in the middle of you sell both 22 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: sides the arms. You probably only need one arm to 23 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: test the other side. It's very small. There's a stink 24 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: of the toy in look back, and there's a little 25 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: vent like under the sink that host to suck in 26 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: the air with the son it does. They have lights. 27 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: They have sockets, two sockets for a TV. In the radio, 28 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: they have shells. Did you have a TV or radio 29 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: down down there? Yeah? Yeah, it. They were giving them 30 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: out black and white televison. Remember black and white television? 31 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: Do you remember those? I do? Do I remember my 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: first one? Okay, remedies had a little screwing up in 33 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: the middle of it. Yep. So yeah, I had. I 34 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: had a TV and I had a radio, and so 35 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: did everyone else. They basically didn't want you to study. 36 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: They didn't want you to think. They gave you a 37 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: TV and hope you watched it day in and down. 38 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: So you're more dangerous if you're educated. You know, they 39 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: didn't want you studying. There were times when I first 40 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: got here, there's there was a lot of books. If 41 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: they caught it in and they saw those books in yourself. 42 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: You go straight to the whole. So you couldn't even 43 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: have a book in yourself. There were certain books that 44 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: you couldn't have. Revolutionaries, whether you're talking about George Jacks 45 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: and a Phenan or cast Row or anything that was 46 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: with a socialist conscious, you couldn't have those books. Say so, 47 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: more often than not, those who are sentenced to solitary 48 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: are denied not only certain books, but phone calls, contact visits, 49 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: and recreational or educational training other than the exercise yard, 50 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: where other programs or classes or anything that you guys 51 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: were entitled to participate in. No classes, no anything. The 52 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: only thing you can probably do is sign up to 53 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: go to the law libry. The only let you go 54 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: to the law librries, because you had a constitutional life. 55 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: To go to the law librarian. You shall at three 56 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: times a week. You may order some books. People can 57 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: order books for you. You have Kelly's, you have radios. 58 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: You allow one package care pactage from from now side 59 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: every years. You know, the debate around it is how 60 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: do you define torture? But if if you define it 61 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: as the needless infliction of pain, then it is certainly 62 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: that Craig Haney, who was on the last episode, as 63 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: a social psychologist and a professor at the University of California, 64 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: Santa Cruz, who has done groundbreaking research on the psychological 65 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: impact of solitary confinement. Is pain which is often long lasting, irreversible, 66 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: and it is pain which sometimes can be fatal and 67 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: for most people, that's where torture is. The a c 68 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: l U has had its sites on the unjust nature 69 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: of solitary confinement for years. Long term isolation their website says, 70 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: costs too much, does nothing to rehabilitate prisoners, and exacerbates 71 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: mental illness or even causes it in prisoner is who 72 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: were healthy when they entered solitary Why do you think 73 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: the US still uses that practice? Is it just to 74 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: break spirits? Is just a punitive thing that the proponents 75 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: of solitary confinement? Why do they continue this practice? I 76 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: think I think there there are mixed motivations. I think 77 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: there are some people who do it out of a 78 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,119 Speaker 1: failure of imagination. They can't think of any better way 79 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: to control prisoners who they think need to be controlled. 80 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: And this is you know the old saying, if if 81 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: all you have is a hammer, and everything looks like 82 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: a nail. It's the only way you can think of 83 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: trying to shape prisoners behavior is to threats and intimidation 84 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: and ultimately punishment, And if that still doesn't work, then 85 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: you continue to escalate the punishment and do it more 86 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: and more, even though it would appear that it's counterproductive, 87 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: you can't think of anything else to do. Thankly, I 88 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: think in some instances it has been used, as you 89 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: described the moment ago, to break people's spirits. I think 90 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: for some correctional officials, the fact that it's painful and 91 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: perhaps for many prisoners, even damaging, perhaps even irreversibly damaging, 92 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: is an unintended consequence. Some of them, I think, wish 93 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: you didn't do that, But they use in any way 94 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: because they don't know what else to do. But then 95 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: I also think there are a category of officials who 96 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: do it because it's destructive. I don't think that characterizes 97 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: all of them, but I've encountered people who have put 98 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: people in solitary confinement because they wanted to break them 99 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: and won't let them out because they're not yet broken enough. 100 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: And yes, that's happened, you know. I've seen that happen. 101 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: I think there are mixed motivations for its continued use. Yeah, 102 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: what are some of the physical traumas the people endure 103 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: as a result of solitary confinement without the light, without 104 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: the human touch. Is there a physical destruction that happens? 105 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: You know what, we're beginning to understand that that it 106 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,559 Speaker 1: is not just psychological and anything is profoundly psychologically damaging people. 107 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: But there's also a lot of research which has now 108 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: been done outside of prisons in jails. You know, it's 109 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: hard to do research in prisons and jail a hard 110 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: to get access to them, hard to get hard to 111 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: get even into the places, let alone to actually have 112 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: access to the people who are confined there. But we 113 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: know that isolation in the world at large as physical 114 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: as well as psychologically negative consequences on people. And so 115 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: there's been research that suggests that people who are exposed 116 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: to social isolation and loneliness are at medical risk in 117 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: a way that is equivalent to other kinds of medical 118 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,679 Speaker 1: risks like smoking. That is to say, they get sick 119 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: at higher rates and their mortality is affected negatively. That's 120 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: how dangerous it is to people's physical well being. And 121 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: then The psychological dangers are many and varied, and they 122 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: run the gamut. They run the gamut from depression, which 123 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: is perhaps the most common reaction that people have to 124 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: it to a kind of anxiety which people can't control. 125 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: They find themselves nervous and anxious and unable to sleep, 126 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: to psychosis, I mean where people lose their really lose 127 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: their bearings, They lose the sense of who they are 128 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: so much of who we are. It's interesting this has 129 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: become much more of an issue for the population at 130 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: large now that we're all in isolation essentially. You know, 131 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: you hear people talking about not knowing who they are, 132 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: being disoriented, losing touch with themselves, losing touch not just 133 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: with their families that they can't see, but losing touch 134 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: with themselves, not being able to do the things that 135 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: they ordinarily do or get joy from. Much has been 136 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: written about how social distancing and isolation has been hard 137 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: on the psyche of Americans. The CDC reported at the 138 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: end of last year that the prevalence of anxiety tripled 139 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: from March to June, and depression has risen four times 140 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: in that time period. Multiply that times a thousand, and 141 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: that's what solitary confinement as to people, because people in 142 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: solitary confinement don't have the options we have to distract ourselves. 143 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,599 Speaker 1: They don't have access to to various kinds of things 144 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: that are still interesting even though they don't involve people 145 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: solitary confinement of deprived prisoners of most of those things 146 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: as well. And we all know that our own isolation 147 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: is being done for a medical purpose. It's medically necessary 148 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: and it won't last forever, even though it's certainly gone 149 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: on most as it would. But you know, prisoners in 150 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: solitary confinement on an indefinite basis, they're not there for 151 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: anything good. From their perspective, it's not as though it's 152 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: a that the pain that they're experiencing is for so noble, 153 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: ultimately good end. And they also many times don't know 154 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: when it's going to end. They don't have any any 155 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: end date that they can look forward to or any 156 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: progress that they can see. So the Unlock the Box 157 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: campaign they are a group they're about abolishing solitary and 158 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: they said that there's been a five increase in the 159 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: use of solitary during the days of COVID. Does this 160 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: resonate truth to you? And well, I know it's true. 161 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: I know it's true because I've been I mean, they've 162 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: been involved in in um lighting declarations. Trying to reverse 163 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: that trend, prison systems have resorted to imposing forms of 164 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: solitary confinement, but labeling and medical quarantine or medical isolation 165 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: or lockdowns that are designed to impose social distancing by 166 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: simply keeping people separating their cells um And you know, 167 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: while on the one man, I understand the motivation to 168 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: keep people medically healthy, what they're not taking into account 169 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: is how psychologically unhealthy environment they're creating, which, you know, 170 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: if you harken back to what we were talking about 171 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: earlier about isolation actually having medical physical consequences on people 172 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: in the long run, we actually may be making people 173 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: less resilient in the face of COVID nineteen. I mean, 174 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: because people deteriorate physically as well as mentally when they're 175 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: kept in isolation. So the notion that you can make 176 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: everything great just by locking everybody in their cell first 177 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: of all, is probably medically naive. That's not going to 178 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: work because clearly people have contact with staff members who 179 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: are coming in and going every day, so that's not 180 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: an impermeable safeguard against them closure to COVID nineteen, And 181 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: it also doesn't take into account the negative psychological consequences 182 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: are keeping form isolation and none of which is being 183 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: taken into account in many correctional facilities prior to COVID. 184 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: As late as the summer of twenty nineteen, approximately sixty 185 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: thou imprisoned men and women in the US were held 186 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: in isolation for an average of twenty two hours a 187 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: day for fifteen days, and a significant percentage of those 188 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: restricted to solitary confinement had serious mental illness. My name 189 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: is Dolores Canalis. I am co founder of California Families 190 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: Against Solitary Confinement. We organize with family members to expose 191 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: the use of solitary confinement and to eventually hopefully end 192 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: the use of solitary confinement and the draconian conditions. Now, 193 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: you have an interesting personal story, and that's really kind 194 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 1: of what drew you to this work. Well, yes, absolutely, 195 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: I began getting incarcerated at eighteen years old. And when 196 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: I first got incarcerated, I did have a drug addiction 197 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: and then I kept going back. It was through recidivism. 198 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: So I do have an extensive arrest history. But It 199 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: was all behind a drug addiction. You know. Now I 200 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: do have nineteen years sobriety. The very first time I 201 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: ever did get arrested, there was a juvenile, as is 202 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: a juvenile, but I was let out immediately. I only 203 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: stayed twenty four hours. But the first thing, you know, 204 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: I noticed, of course, besides being stripped naked, was being 205 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: thrown in a cell all by myself. So that was 206 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: actually my first experience with solitary confinement. They won't refer 207 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: to it as solitary confinement, but at that time, it 208 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: was just these individual single cells. What did they call it, 209 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: adjustment center or they just called it like the housing unit. 210 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: And and this is one thing that I always attempt 211 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: to convey to people, is we know about the solitary 212 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: confinement that we refer to as the shoe, the security 213 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: housing unit. We know about admit strait of segregation which 214 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: is also solitary confinement, and different types of units that 215 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: they referred to, but oftentimes these cells are built so 216 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: that you are in a form of isolation, and this 217 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: is throughout incarceration. I just remember the absolute feeling of 218 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: despair and hopelessness when I was put in there as 219 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: a youth. There was absolutely nothing in that room. There 220 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: wasn't a book or a TV or anything to occupy 221 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: my thoughts in my mind. Jarvis, So he was in 222 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: the adjustment center or solitary for twenty two years straight. 223 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: And he said, and I believe this to be true. 224 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: The only thing that really kept him saying, because he 225 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: is a genuinely joyful individual, and the only thing that 226 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: had really kept him saying was his meditation practice. So 227 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: when you were in for prolonged periods of time, what 228 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: did you think, what did you do? Where did you 229 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: go in your mind? How did you survive? It is 230 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: definitely having the support of people on the outside and 231 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: that communication. And then I would get weekly visits, even 232 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: though my visits were only fourty minutes behind glass. My 233 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: mom used to drive out there, and then you know, 234 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: also several of my friends. I used to drive out 235 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: there just to get me out of myself, because you 236 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: would get out of your son and then you had 237 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: to be put in a van and driven to where 238 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: the visiting room was. So it was like a little 239 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: out here, you know. So so that was one of 240 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: I think one of the main things that connection with 241 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: family and then reading and then the other women in 242 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: solitary along with me. You know, we used to yell 243 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: at our doors or when we go to yard time, 244 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: and we'd be able to talk through the chain link fence. 245 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: We'd have those few moments of being able to talk 246 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: to the chain link fence. And I think definitely, you know, 247 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: the meditation, the books that I read at the time, 248 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: I would read a lot on recovery, on you know, meditation. 249 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: I read Sermon on the Mountain. They're you know, the 250 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: big book of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, 251 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: just trying to read a lot of things like that. 252 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: So a typical day was I always used to get 253 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: up in the morning. You know, we get our breakfast trays, 254 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: get up in the morning, take a bird bath. You 255 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: have to use your sink right there, you know, comb 256 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: my hair, get dressed, get ready. Did you have a 257 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: mirror to see yourself. Yeah, it's one of those mirrors 258 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: that it's not a real mirror metal. It's like, yeah, 259 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: you look real blurry. It's one of those, you know, 260 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: so it kind of gives you the illusion of you're 261 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: looking in a mirror. And uh so, you know, I'd 262 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: get up, get dressed, get ready, Uh, there were times 263 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: and we'd have conversations in the event. We'd be able 264 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: to talk through the events and y'all through the vents 265 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: and have conversations in our events, maybe share about letters 266 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: that we got, things like that. Even for dinner sometimes 267 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: I used to literally like just get ready for dinner. 268 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: One time, I even, like, you know, put a sheet 269 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: around me like it was a dress, and you know, 270 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: just getting ready and pretending like I'm have like make Alaska's. 271 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: And then while many are irreversibly broken by the prolonged 272 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: isolation of solitary, some like Jarvis, have been successful. It's 273 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: staving off those effects. I asked Professor Haney, what qualities 274 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: and practices help these individuals to cope and come out 275 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: on the other side undamaged. The prisoners that I see 276 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: who were most successful at warding off the worst of 277 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: these experiences, the worst consequences of these experiences. And it's 278 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: a it's a three part it's a three part program. 279 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: The forest is to take it seriously. I mean, the 280 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: people who worry me are the people who say, this 281 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: isn't bothering me, it's it's nothing, it's and the people 282 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: vary in terms of the degree in which they are 283 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: harmed by it. That's certainly true. But people who don't 284 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: take it seriously are at risk of being affected by 285 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: it in ways that they don't recognize or notice. So 286 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: people who are successful at we're standing or resisting it, 287 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: take it seriously, understand that they are there's surviving in 288 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: the face of what is a psychological assault on who 289 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: they are, and that they have to figure out ways 290 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: to resist it psychologically. So it's it's acknowledge it. Then 291 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: impose a structure on what is otherwise the emptiness of 292 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: the time that you're serving. I mean, one of the 293 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: things that prisoners tell you in these places is there's 294 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: no day or night. I mean, even though you can technically, 295 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, you might be able to see the sunlight 296 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: or whatever, in some places you can't even do that, 297 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: but there's no real routine. There's no Every day is 298 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: like the day before and the day after, and you 299 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: have there's very little that you can do that you 300 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: have to do, and so you have to create a 301 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: structure for yourself. And some, you know, very successful prisoners, 302 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: successful in surviving this environment, create a very rigid structure 303 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: for themselves that they insist on imposing on themselves. You 304 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: get up at a certain time, you clean yourself at 305 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: a certain time, you read for a certain number of hours, 306 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: you you write letters at a certain period of time, 307 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: You exercise a certain you know, you have an exercise 308 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: routine that you scrupulously follow, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. To impose 309 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: order on disorder, to impose structure and otherwise a kind 310 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: of empty, chaotic experience that you can get lost in. 311 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: And then the third thing that successful people do, again 312 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: successful in surviving this environment reasonably intact, is to overcome 313 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: the acep reality of it in whatever way they can 314 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: write letters, have visits, reach out, create as much of 315 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: a social world as you can, despite the prison systems 316 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: imposing on you as much of an a social world 317 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: as as it can, so you circumvent that and in 318 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: whatever way you can. You know, I know with clients 319 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: of mine who who were in isolation, when they're reaching 320 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: a crisis stage is when they cut off visits, when 321 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: they when they want to see people anymore. That's a 322 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: sign to me that this their their ability to relate 323 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: to other people's atrophy. And people are now becoming they're 324 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: now coming to represent and a versus stimulus if you will, uh, 325 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: And that's problematic and you have to do what you 326 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: can to to reverse that. We talked to Dolores Kenalis. 327 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: She's the co founder of the California Families Against Solitary Confinement. 328 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: She says that she knows of you and your work 329 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: and and obviously they are a big advocate for abolishing 330 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: solitary Do you think that's something that's going to happen 331 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: nationally in our lifetime? I do, you know, And I 332 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: have friends who think on naive for saying that I do, 333 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: because I think there has been in the last ten 334 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: to fifteen years enough science around not just the harmfulness 335 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: of solitary confinement per se, but the harmfulness of social 336 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: isolation and loneliness in the world at large. It's regarded 337 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: internationally as a public health crisis, and whatever form it 338 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: takes in the world at large, it is much much 339 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: worse than solitary confinement. So I think the as as 340 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: we become increasingly aware as as a population that this 341 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: is harmful for anybody. And now you know, as we've 342 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: had an opportunity to experience ourselves, it doesn't feel good 343 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: and it's destabilizing for all of us, and it's noticeable. 344 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: You can it's tangible for us now. I think the 345 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: notion that we would subject people to this imprisonment in 346 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: addition to all the other deprivations which they're experiencing in prison, 347 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: is something that is increasingly questioned by much, much large 348 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: your numbers of people who have had just a little 349 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: bit a glimmer of insight into what's this like in 350 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: their own day to day lives, we can only imagine 351 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: what it would be like for somebody like Jarvis enduring 352 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: this for not just months or years, but decades. Up next, 353 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: a recent shift in the way prisons are contending with 354 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: solitary confinement and why it gives Professor Hainey hope for 355 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: a more humane future in our prison systems. The other 356 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: reason I'm optimistic about this is that I think in 357 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: many parts around the country, prison systems have gun to 358 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: think of alternatives. I think, what what we We've used 359 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: solitary confinement largely because there was no pressure on systems 360 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: to do anything differently, and correctional systems were not a 361 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: creative about figuring out responses to disciplinary problems and prison 362 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: violence that did not involve throwing people in an isolation cell, 363 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: and I think increasingly, over the years and different parts 364 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: of the country, systems have become much more innovative and 365 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: creative and humane in terms of how they deal with 366 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: those problems. It's not as widespread as it should be, 367 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: and most places have not going remotely as far as 368 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: they should, but they're at least grappling with the issue. 369 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out better ways. The whole issue 370 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: of I mean this doesn't apply to drivers, but the 371 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: whole issue of who's in solitary confinement and the fact 372 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: that in most prison systems a disproportionate number of the 373 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: people who are there are mentally ill, and of any 374 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: grip that should not be placed in solitary confinement, the 375 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: mentally ill or at the top of the list, yet 376 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: disproportionate numbers of them are there. They're there for various reasons, 377 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: but largely because they're Their mental illness makes difficult, if 378 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: not impossible, for them to follow the myriad rules and 379 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: regulations of a prison environment. They're easily provoked, so they 380 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: easily get in trouble, and prison systems throw up their 381 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: hands and instead of dealing with the mental health problem, 382 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: discipline them as though they're willfully violating the prison rules 383 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: and regulations, and that needs to be I think addressed 384 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: head on, and many systems are beginning to do that, 385 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,479 Speaker 1: so that what I just said is something that I 386 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: think many prison officials now understand in a much more 387 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: serious way than you know, even a few years ago, 388 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: and they're taking steps to deal with mental illness in 389 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: prison systems in a way that they didn't before. That 390 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: does not involve putting people in solitary confinement where they're 391 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: likely to deteriorating to compensate even more. Do you have 392 00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: any PTSD from solitary Nothing that has been diagnosed by 393 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: medical but definitely things that I see in myself. I 394 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: start to get real anxious at times, and I'll feel 395 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: like I have to you know, when with a big crowd. 396 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: That will start to make me nervous, and I'll go 397 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: off by myself. And you know what is interesting, there 398 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: was a convening of sorts with Craig Haney. He's done 399 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: a lot of work around the issues of solitary He's 400 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: from the northern California area. He actually worked on Jarvis's 401 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: initial trial back in the late eighties. Okay, great, so yeah, 402 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: so that that's amazing and and he has done so 403 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: much work. But we were at his home for a 404 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: convening that we were going to be at, you know 405 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: the next day, and it was a full house, you know, 406 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: amazing people, and I started to feel just like I 407 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: had to get away. So I went into his living room. 408 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: And when I went there, Albert wood Fox, who was 409 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: also a solitary survivor from Louisiana, was there, and he's 410 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: and I thought I made the immediate connection of you 411 00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: felt like he just had to get out of the 412 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: crowd at a room. You know, it wasn't the people. 413 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: We admired all the people that were there, and it 414 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: was an honor to be in that presence and talking 415 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: to everybody. But then so that's how I often get 416 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: when I first came home and I was working at 417 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: an office at Pacific Interpreting Services, you know, I used 418 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: to have to call and I was dealing doing billing 419 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: and collections with insurance agencies and we were we were 420 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: in a big room and there was like four of 421 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: us at our desks, and my boss gave me my 422 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: own office, and I'll never forget the feeling of being 423 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: in my own office. I went to him in person, 424 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: and I said, did I do something wrong? I went, 425 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't. I loved my job, but 426 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: at that moment, I didn't even want to go back 427 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: to work. And I went into his office. I said, 428 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: can I speak to you? And I think I felt 429 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: like crying, you know, and I said, why am I 430 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: getting put in my own office? What did I do wrong? 431 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: You know? Did I get you mad? And he looked 432 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: at me kind of you know, He's like, that's a 433 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: promotion and the compliment, how good you are? And then 434 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: I I went in my office and I closed the 435 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: door because I just I was feeling too overwhelmed. And 436 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: I called an insurance adjuster. They owed us so many 437 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: and I remember he was like, it's only thirty dollars, 438 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: you know, and and and I started telling him, you 439 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: know what, I could care less about the thirty dollars. 440 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: Do you want to know what just happened to me? 441 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: I was just placed in my own office. I'm all 442 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: alone in here. I started telling an insurance and just 443 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: working at Pacific Intermity Services, right, I mean, that's how 444 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: devastated I was. I think when you've had that experience, 445 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: you know you your life goes on and things, but 446 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't leave you. I don't know how to explain it, 447 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: but it doesn't leave you. And and it will creep 448 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: in at times where the next thing you know, you're 449 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: just back in isolation, you know. So it's a constant processing, 450 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: it's a constant um. I don't think you're ever really 451 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: healed from it. Yeah, I can't imagine it's torture. Yeah, 452 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: soolutely I would define it as torture, you know. And 453 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: what's interesting is Kathleen Connolly. She I don't know she 454 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: still is, but a few years ago she was the 455 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: vice president for the Humane Society of the United States 456 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: of America, and she's literally quoted that research chimpanzees they 457 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,479 Speaker 1: need to see and hear and touch and feel one 458 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: another because solitary confinement is detrimental to their physical well being, 459 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: you know. And and under federal government law, research chimpanzees 460 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: cannot be held in solitary confinement, you know. And then 461 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 1: in California, and this is what I would say, you know, California, 462 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: we're always getting saying saying that California is the outlier. 463 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: In California is progressive. But in California, in the November 464 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight ballot, we had proposition to cage 465 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: free chickens. It passed unanimously. California should be voting on 466 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: cage free humans. And do you know the humane standards 467 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,479 Speaker 1: for chickens. Proper and nutritious diet. That was actually one 468 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: of the demands of the hunger strikes. Proper nutricious diet, 469 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: adequate resting places, and the ability to engage in natural 470 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: behavior chickens. So separating a mother from her child, separating 471 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: a grandmother from her grandson or her great grandson, where 472 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: is the natural behavior in the way we keep humans confined? 473 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: But yet we have proposition to cage free chickens. We 474 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: need that same activism, we need that same looking people 475 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: as people. Well, Laura, thank you, you are delightful, Thank you. 476 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: I appreciate everything. All right, great, thank you, thank you 477 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: so much. Special thanks to Dolores Canalis and the work 478 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: she does as co founder of the California Families Against 479 00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: Solitary Confinement. Next week, Laurie Shama, a staff writer the 480 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: Marshall Project, shares the good news of his latest book, 481 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: let The Lord Sort Them, The Rise and Fall of 482 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,239 Speaker 1: the Death Penalty. This episode was written and produced by 483 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: Donni Fazzari and myself Corny Cole. Our theme song sentenced 484 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: is compliments of the band Stick Figure from their album 485 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: Set in Stone. Stu Sternbach composed the original music. Nate 486 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: Dufort did the sound design. For more information on Jarvis 487 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: and to find out how you can follow his case 488 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: and support his cause, please visit free Jarvis dot org. 489 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i 490 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 491 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: your favorite shows