Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
Speaker 2: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
Speaker 2: the world, it is so great to have you here,
Speaker 2: back for another episode as we, of course break down
Speaker 2: the psychology of our twenties. When we talk about health,
Speaker 2: I think our first thought is physical health. You know,
Speaker 2: what food we consume, what exercise we do, how our
Speaker 2: body feels, what our doctor might say. Then we might
Speaker 2: think about mental health, psychologically, emotionally, where do we sit,
Speaker 2: social health, financial health, The list goes on. But rarely
Speaker 2: do we prioritize our spiritual health when in fact, spiritual
Speaker 2: health health is really linked to all these other pillars
Speaker 2: of our well being. It might not sound as scientific
Speaker 2: or real as these other dimensions of our health. I
Speaker 2: think based on what a lot of society has taught
Speaker 2: us over the years, but it's really valuable to have
Speaker 2: something you believe in, especially in your twenties as you're
Speaker 2: blooming and blossoming into this new person. You have to
Speaker 2: have something that you have faith in, a sense of meaning,
Speaker 2: a value system in order to have a fulfilled life.
Speaker 2: And it's definitely something that I've begun prioritizing more. Even
Speaker 2: though I'm not a religious person anymore. I think that
Speaker 2: life is just a lot more enjoyable and our sense
Speaker 2: of purpose is a lot more profound when you can
Speaker 2: identify a connection between yourself and the world and what
Speaker 2: you're here for. So I really want to talk about
Speaker 2: this today and bring the spirituality and the science and
Speaker 2: the mental health together to kind of understand how we
Speaker 2: engaged spiritual life and a belief system is so special
Speaker 2: in our twentyes. And of course I had to bring
Speaker 2: on an incredible guest, doctor Lisa Miller. She is a
Speaker 2: professor at Columbia University, at clinical psychologist and a scientist,
Speaker 2: and she focuses on the intersection between spiritual health and
Speaker 2: our wellbeing. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3: I'm so happy to be here, and I just really
Speaker 3: love the way you get right down to what truly matters.
Speaker 3: These in her twenties, we lay the groundwork for the
Speaker 3: rest of our lives, and you know it deserves really
Speaker 3: being truthful and getting down to it. So thank you.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I really appreciate that. Yet we're not missing
Speaker 2: around you. I've kind of already given you a little introduction.
Speaker 2: Do you want to talk more about your path to
Speaker 2: where you are now, what you do, who you are
Speaker 2: as a person.
Speaker 3: Sure. So I'm a clinical scientist. I'm a professor at
Speaker 3: Columbia University of twenty five years, and I have over
Speaker 3: these years published probably one hundred hundred and fifty peer
Speaker 3: review scientific articles on spirituality, who we really are spiritually
Speaker 3: and the relationship between our own personal spirituality and our
Speaker 3: bigger lives. Our health, our wellness, our recovery, our strength
Speaker 3: and character are thriving. But I'll also share with you. You know,
Speaker 3: when I talk about how I got here, when I
Speaker 3: was in my twenties, I was on a spiritual hunt.
Speaker 3: I mean I was really on a quest in my twenties,
Speaker 3: and it was not easy. So if you really want
Speaker 3: to know how I got here to being, you know,
Speaker 3: a lifelong scientist and someone who's devoted themselves to this work,
Speaker 3: it starts in my twenties. You know, I was nineteen
Speaker 3: years old, twenty years old starting out, and I really
Speaker 3: started to wonder, you know, what the purpose of life
Speaker 3: really was. And this was no joke. You know, I'd
Speaker 3: always been kind of a thoughtful person, but I really
Speaker 3: started to wonder. It sort of was just tug from within,
Speaker 3: and that tug became about one hundred hymns more fierce
Speaker 3: when there was a bump in my life. And people
Speaker 3: have different bumps, it doesn't matter it turns out what
Speaker 3: the bump might be. But for me, my true love,
Speaker 3: the first time I'd ever ever been in love, completely
Speaker 3: broke my heart. I mean, so, here was this guy
Speaker 3: I'd fallen in love for the first time, and I
Speaker 3: thought he was perfect. You know, he was, in my eyes,
Speaker 3: more handsome than a Greek sculpture. He was so interesting,
Speaker 3: he was you know, I was mesmerized. And he said,
Speaker 3: you know what, I really think. I'm falling in love
Speaker 3: with you. And I said, you love me. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I love you. And that was after three months and
Speaker 3: I've found the person I'm going to marry. And then yeah,
Speaker 3: after he broke up with me, boom, five months and
Speaker 3: I was shocked. It didn't make sense, Like I said,
Speaker 3: but you said you love me, He's like, no, I did,
Speaker 3: and I said, but now you don't love me, and
Speaker 3: he's like, no, not now. I'm like, well you did then,
Speaker 3: but you don't now. How can that be? He's like,
Speaker 3: well there was a change. And I thought, well, if
Speaker 3: you can change, you know, does love really matter? Is
Speaker 3: love real? I mean, if you can love me, truly
Speaker 3: love me and then truly not love me? Is love real?
Speaker 3: And ever more like? I started to think, well, wait
Speaker 3: a minute, is you know, are what is our human
Speaker 3: condition that we can so called fall out of love?
Speaker 3: Or is there any permanent or stability to us? You know,
Speaker 3: what can you really bank on? Can you trust people
Speaker 3: in life? And this sent me on a huge spiral
Speaker 3: about what is the nature of life? What is real?
Speaker 3: Are humans real? Is love real? And these were not
Speaker 3: questions that were somehow a symptom of pathology. These were genuine,
Speaker 3: real questions. So what do you think I did? I
Speaker 3: went to a therapist and I went first therapist and
Speaker 3: I said, listen, you know I have really been on
Speaker 3: a downward spiral since John broke up with me. I
Speaker 3: don't know if love's real. I don't know if we
Speaker 3: can really count on each other. Do we just change overnight?
Speaker 3: Are we so stable? Or real, and I really wonder,
Speaker 3: you know, I used to really believe in God or
Speaker 3: to higher power, whatever one's word might be, the universe,
Speaker 3: and now I don't know how much I can really
Speaker 3: count even on that is God real? It's the universe
Speaker 3: in the sense of being loving and there for us
Speaker 3: personally real. And the therapist looked at my story and said,
Speaker 3: so you don't know if God's really there for you?
Speaker 3: And I said, yeah, I don't know if God's real.
Speaker 3: And she said, well, was your father there for you
Speaker 3: when you were little? And I'm like, wait a minute, No,
Speaker 3: I don't mean that my father isn't there for me.
Speaker 3: I mean God is there. And she could only tell
Speaker 3: that one story that we're nothing more than the paths
Speaker 3: of our childhood. So you know, I thought this isn't
Speaker 3: for me, and I went fired her, which she should do.
Speaker 3: Should always fire a therapist if it's not right. Then
Speaker 3: I went to a new therapist and I told the
Speaker 3: same story, and she's said, okay, so you don't know
Speaker 3: if God's there for you. Do you think you have
Speaker 3: low self esteem? Do you think that you have sort
Speaker 3: of negative self talk? And I said no, I'm fine
Speaker 3: with myself. I don't know if God's real right, And
Speaker 3: this turned out to be what I have now come
Speaker 3: decades later to know is the most important work that
Speaker 3: we do, which is figure out the spiritual reality and
Speaker 3: who we are in this spiritual reality. Mental health didn't
Speaker 3: know that, Psychologists, therapists didn't know that, college counselors didn't
Speaker 3: know that. They thought that this big quest was actually
Speaker 3: just a symptom of depression. But now we know, you know,
Speaker 3: hundreds of pure view scientific articles later, that this is
Speaker 3: not just you know, a sidebar of depression. This is
Speaker 3: literally how we are built. We are hardwired our brain,
Speaker 3: our genes to grow into our twenties and need to quest,
Speaker 3: and we're even better at it in our twenties.
Speaker 2: I'm listening to that story and just being like, wow,
Speaker 2: can completely relate. Have seen this happen so many times,
Speaker 2: have seen it happen in myself, and the listeners of
Speaker 2: the show will know. A couple months ago, I went
Speaker 2: through an incredibly similar experience where I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what's the meaning of life? What happens after we die?
Speaker 2: How do you go on? Knowing that it's finite? YadA
Speaker 2: YadA YadA, and eth essential crisis and so I went
Speaker 2: to a therapist and she asked me if I had
Speaker 2: watched any scary movies as of Racince. So it's so funny, right,
Speaker 2: And then they were like, oh, we'll just up your
Speaker 2: antidepressants as a way to combat this. And I think
Speaker 2: it was kind of like the first line of defense.
Speaker 2: I accepted it. And then now I've gotten to a
Speaker 2: place much like you have, where it's like, actually, this
Speaker 2: is an upending question. If I don't answer it now,
Speaker 2: I'll have to answer it eventually, I'll have to answer
Speaker 2: it in three years time, in my thirties, in my forties,
Speaker 2: and my mom said something to me. She was like,
Speaker 2: this is something that you're going to continue to struggle
Speaker 2: with until you have a belief system that you can
Speaker 2: rely on, not one that any institution or a therapist
Speaker 2: has told you.
Speaker 3: And you gave chills because you are so deep and
Speaker 3: so wise. And here I am with tears in my
Speaker 3: eyes because you knew the truth that this was a
Speaker 3: very real, very profound it's a sacred quest, and I
Speaker 3: am deep lived that you knew exactly what it was.
Speaker 3: You didn't let a so called expert tell you that
Speaker 3: your experience was somehow anything other than profound thank you.
Speaker 2: And it's hard, you know, because when you have such
Speaker 2: a scientific and a psychological perspective, that is where you
Speaker 2: look first. And I think people might be listening to
Speaker 2: this being like where does God come in here? You know,
Speaker 2: we're talking about God, We're talking about Allah. Maybe these
Speaker 2: big figures. One of the biggest questions, and I think
Speaker 2: conundrums people have when they think about spirituality is does
Speaker 2: that mean I have to be religious? So what in
Speaker 2: your mind is the difference between spirituality and religion? Can
Speaker 2: you have like a non denominational quest.
Speaker 3: What you just shared was a deeply profound spiritual quest
Speaker 3: that is actually hardwired in every single one of us.
Speaker 3: So your journey reveals needing to answer the profound questions,
Speaker 3: an existential crisis, as you put it, the very nature
Speaker 3: of our existence. This is in our birthright. And we
Speaker 3: now have a very good science of twenty years that says,
Speaker 3: just as we're physical, emotional, cognitive beings, we are all
Speaker 3: spiritual beings. And we even have found the circuits in
Speaker 3: the brain using MRI studies that are the spiritual circuits.
Speaker 3: And it turns out that every single person on earth,
Speaker 3: every seven point two billion people on Earth all have
Speaker 3: the same spiritual circuits. Spirituality is inborn, it's innate, and
Speaker 3: we know this ever more through the lens of a
Speaker 3: twin study. We look at twins race together and twins
Speaker 3: raced apart, and we can determine whether any human capacity
Speaker 3: is inborn or environmentally formed. And spirituality is innate. Religion,
Speaker 3: whether we are Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Jane, whatever our
Speaker 3: tradition may be right, religion is not inborn. Religion is
Speaker 3: environmentally transmitted. So the texts and the ceremonies and the
Speaker 3: teachings are a gift of the environment. But spirituality is
Speaker 3: a deep, inborn human capacity, and because it's inborn, it
Speaker 3: has natural phases of development, including the most precious phase,
Speaker 3: which is in our twenties. We become independent spiritual beings
Speaker 3: on our own terms, on our own inner heart. We
Speaker 3: need to figure out what's true and not true, the
Speaker 3: inner compass of spiritual reality, and.
Speaker 2: What does that feel like when you kind of come
Speaker 2: to that point, whatever religion or non religion or agnostic
Speaker 2: atheist environment you've been raised in, does it always look
Speaker 2: like a spiritual crisis or does it look like an awakening?
Speaker 3: Well, your question is very beautiful because most people at
Speaker 3: some point have some type of struggle or crisis, the
Speaker 3: testing of everything they've been taught or told against the
Speaker 3: deep knowing of their own inner part. You know, what
Speaker 3: is the resonance. And so whether it is at twenty
Speaker 3: two or twenty nine, you know, somewhere in the twenties,
Speaker 3: there is wait a minute, everything you ever told me,
Speaker 3: you know, pastor priest of mind, Rabbi, grandma and grandpa, mom, dad,
Speaker 3: I need to know it as true against my own
Speaker 3: inner compass. That's called spiritual emergence, and it is it
Speaker 3: is a mark of entering into adulthood. It is an
Speaker 3: incredibly is the cornerstone of adulthood. So that is absolutely
Speaker 3: essential to emerging as our own person in the world.
Speaker 3: But you're also raising another equally beautiful and important point,
Speaker 3: which is sometimes, you know, in addition to that, someone
Speaker 3: who's been on a quest, someone who struggled, or someone
Speaker 3: who will someday struggle, also may have moments of extraordinary awakening.
Speaker 3: You know, suddenly you might have a dream, or you
Speaker 3: could have a mystical experience or a synchronicity when two
Speaker 3: events are way too unprobabilistic to have just happened by chance.
Speaker 3: They go together deeply, and that type of spiritual experience
Speaker 3: in the world is a gift, that is a way
Speaker 3: of the universe who I call God, your higher power,
Speaker 3: the force of life, saying you are never alone, you
Speaker 3: are guided, you are loved, and you are held And.
Speaker 2: It's so beautiful. The way that you talk about it
Speaker 2: is like it doesn't need to be in a box.
Speaker 2: There is no one right answer for what is real.
Speaker 2: It's what calls you to see a higher purpose and
Speaker 2: a higher meaning whatever that comes to you as And
Speaker 2: it's a highly individual experience, which I think is what
Speaker 2: sometimes can frustrate people. It's like, well, I just want
Speaker 2: to know the answer. I just want to know what's
Speaker 2: real and what is the one truth. And I think
Speaker 2: the thing about spirituality is it's not about having the
Speaker 2: one answer. It's about having the structure and the belief system,
Speaker 2: the same way you believe in so many other things.
Speaker 2: You believe that you are alive, you believe that you
Speaker 2: have a purpose, you believe that you are capable of
Speaker 2: being loved. It's like you believe that there is something more.
Speaker 2: What have you seen in your studies when people aren't
Speaker 2: able to find that belief, or perhaps they continue to
Speaker 2: suppress their need for something more.
Speaker 3: You put it so beautifully, because spirituality is not a theory, right,
Speaker 3: It is our ability to perceive into the deeper nature
Speaker 3: of life. Its spirituality is a seat of awareness. And
Speaker 3: so what you're describing is really it's almost like a
Speaker 3: sacred operating manual. How do I look into the world?
Speaker 3: What is my stance? And that is a deeply personal
Speaker 3: journey to arrive into our own dialogue with the universe.
Speaker 3: And I can share with you that when we do
Speaker 3: that work, we are profoundly protected against addiction, against depression,
Speaker 3: against some forms even of harm or suicide. There's nothing
Speaker 3: more protective against this real sort of global epidemic of
Speaker 3: the diseases of despair in twenty year olds. Nothing is
Speaker 3: more profoundly protective as our deep spiritual seat of awareness.
Speaker 3: So again, it may or may not be through one's
Speaker 3: religion that one finds that with that deep personal sense
Speaker 3: of quest to have our bearings in life? What is
Speaker 3: life showing me? Now? What is my higher power asking
Speaker 3: or revealing to me? Now? What does that synchronicity mean?
Speaker 3: Was that a sacred dream. Was that a mystical experience,
Speaker 3: and knowing our spiritual experience to be true, that is real.
Speaker 3: Know it's true, take it as extremely important, reflect on it,
Speaker 3: and then act on it. So there's no way of
Speaker 3: knowing that is as strong and sure and helps us
Speaker 3: along as much as our spiritual way. I mean, actually,
Speaker 3: could we do a brief ninety second practice where people
Speaker 3: have a chance to engage their spiritual weariness?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we love anything practical on the show.
Speaker 3: Please beautiful, okay, beautiful. So I'm going to invite you to,
Speaker 3: just as a ninety second practice, clear out your inner space,
Speaker 3: close your eyes, an invitation if you wish to close
Speaker 3: your eyes and take five big beautiful breaths to open
Speaker 3: up your inner chamber. And in your inner chamber, I
Speaker 3: invite you to set before you at table. This is
Speaker 3: your table. Into your table. You may invite anyone living
Speaker 3: or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind.
Speaker 3: Anyone living or deceased too, truly has your best interest
Speaker 3: in mind, And with them all sitting there, ask them
Speaker 3: if they love you. And now you may invite your
Speaker 3: higher self, the part of you that is so much
Speaker 3: more than anything you might have done or not done
Speaker 3: anything that you might have or not have your true
Speaker 3: eternal higher self, and ask you if you love you.
Speaker 3: And now finally you may invite your higher power, however
Speaker 3: you know, whatever word is yours, your higher power, and
Speaker 3: ask if they love you. And now, with all of
Speaker 3: those people sitting there right now, what do they need
Speaker 3: to tell you? Now? What do you need to know?
Speaker 3: What do they need to share right now? I?
Speaker 2: Wow, I feel very tingling. It's quite a beautiful exercise.
Speaker 2: Have you seen people like come out of that and
Speaker 2: just be like I have a complete new truth, Like
Speaker 2: I completely have rethought how I think about myself.
Speaker 3: I've seen people deeply moved and awaken because they realize, yes,
Speaker 3: you are spiritual. This is you. You are spiritual, and
Speaker 3: no one can ever take this away from you.
Speaker 2: Wow, it was so interesting when you were thinking about
Speaker 2: the table. I also feel like I was thinking about
Speaker 2: this big family dinner table and it wasn't just people,
Speaker 2: but it was like pets as well. I don't know
Speaker 2: why I was like, oh yeah, and there's my childhood
Speaker 2: dog and there's my current dog, and they're you know,
Speaker 2: sitting at this table. I don't know why. I was
Speaker 2: just like, oh, of course, people.
Speaker 3: I want to say, so I feel that way about
Speaker 3: my dog. I love my dog, and I feel there
Speaker 3: we're all souls, that our dogs are souls, and we're
Speaker 3: here together.
Speaker 2: I know. It's interesting how like that thought exercise gives
Speaker 2: you a new perspective on what to you, like constitutes
Speaker 2: a soul and what to constitutes love and how that's reflected.
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful exercise.
Speaker 3: So at my table, it's not always the same people
Speaker 3: every time, right. And what's nice about this practice is
Speaker 3: that we can bring to counsel. This is your counsel, right,
Speaker 3: what is on our heart at any given moment. So
Speaker 3: if someone is really you know, I felt very unkind
Speaker 3: to me, or is not it was, or has betrayed
Speaker 3: me or working against me, I can bring that experience
Speaker 3: and even that person in my mind to counsel.
Speaker 2: So for example, if you're even if you've got some
Speaker 2: huge decision, perhaps after a breakup, or you're you know,
Speaker 2: at a crossroads in terms of your career, or some
Speaker 2: tragedy has happened, it is almost like you've got this
Speaker 2: perfect panel of everyone who represents love and joy and
Speaker 2: care and empathy to you, who you can ask in
Speaker 2: your own mind without actually needing them. There is that
Speaker 2: kind of the premise as.
Speaker 3: Well, Yes, beautifully put exactly there. This panel is always
Speaker 3: there for you. Oh yeah, and who shows up may
Speaker 3: change that you can answer them what is on your heart.
Speaker 2: And that's like one exercise I think that gets us
Speaker 2: in touch with a sense of spirituality, even if you
Speaker 2: don't think you have it, even if you know you
Speaker 2: have strange feelings about it that you've been conditioned to think.
Speaker 2: How else do we really begin to build out our
Speaker 2: spiritual core in a similar way. I feel like that's
Speaker 2: a great exercise for being like, Okay, I've recognized that
Speaker 2: at my core I do have a deep belief and
Speaker 2: a deep intrinsic sense of being present, being here, being loved.
Speaker 2: How do we make sure that carries with us in
Speaker 2: other parts of our life and begin to build like
Speaker 2: those pillars of what do I believe in?
Speaker 3: So that's a very beautiful question because we can have
Speaker 3: a moment of breakthrough. It can be through a practice
Speaker 3: like we just shared here the Hosting Council, or it
Speaker 3: could come spontaneously. We could be on a hike and
Speaker 3: see the sun on the lake and it's just so
Speaker 3: breathtakingly beautiful that we feel a sense of oneness, we
Speaker 3: feel a presence of God or the higher power of
Speaker 3: the universe. You know, we can have moments of awakening.
Speaker 3: But the question is how to really integrate spirituality into
Speaker 3: our our lives, how to really build what you were
Speaker 3: talking about earlier, which is a sacred operating manual, a
Speaker 3: way of being in the world and understanding of how
Speaker 3: to engage day in and day out with the sacred
Speaker 3: presence or the universe. And that journey is again, it
Speaker 3: doesn't happen in two days. It's really developed in our
Speaker 3: twenties if we give it the care and the love
Speaker 3: and the attention and the time. But we're never ever
Speaker 3: as good at it as we are in our twenties.
Speaker 3: So you have a gift right now. You are better
Speaker 3: in your twenties than in your forties, fifties, or sixties
Speaker 3: at being basically spiritual seekers. Knowing in the heart what
Speaker 3: is true, knowing what's fake in hypocrisy, hungering for what
Speaker 3: is genuine and transcendent, and not wanting something that is
Speaker 3: unworthy or shallow. You are built to be exquisite spiritual seekers,
Speaker 3: So there's no time like our twenties. We're as good
Speaker 3: as building this deep stance in living, which means, you know,
Speaker 3: we can't control things in life, and the world's getting
Speaker 3: more complex. We can't control the environment, we can't control
Speaker 3: who takes office all this, but we certainly can control
Speaker 3: a deep stance of spiritual quest. What is life showing
Speaker 3: me now? What is life revealing to me now? Not
Speaker 3: why is this happening to me? But why is this
Speaker 3: happening for me? Start with the premise that your life
Speaker 3: is an incredible spiritual adventure and everything is a porthole
Speaker 3: to incredible expansion and growth. So nothing is a bummer.
Speaker 3: Everything is going to make you more, not less, even
Speaker 3: if it's hurt and it's not what we want. It
Speaker 3: doesn't mean there's not bad people, and there's plenty of
Speaker 3: bad people, but it's not It doesn't matter if we
Speaker 3: wanted it or not wanted it. It's all part of
Speaker 3: the spiritual path and it'll all make us deeper and
Speaker 3: more profound. So nothing in your life is wasted, nothing
Speaker 3: in your life is off the spiritual path. Everything is
Speaker 3: going in the end to make you more, not less.
Speaker 3: That's the first point. The second thing is people are like, Okay,
Speaker 3: well how do I do this? And there's a lot
Speaker 3: of people going out right now and they go and
Speaker 3: retreats there just maybe they'll try ayahuasca, they'll have a breakthrough, okay.
Speaker 3: And the question is, well, okay, there's a breakthrough, but
Speaker 3: what am I going to do next? And we don't
Speaker 3: want to turn around and go touch the stone two
Speaker 3: weeks later. You can't do ayahuasca every two weeks, right,
Speaker 3: You can't live a life that way. So how do
Speaker 3: you integrate spiritual breakthrough? Whether it's through mystical experience or
Speaker 3: ayahuasca or prayer, or you've meditated, or you've seen nature.
Speaker 3: And there's four pieces, there's four ingredients. May I get
Speaker 3: into it?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yes? Please, yes, please.
Speaker 3: So the way I think of it as four p's,
Speaker 3: there is a way to remember it a practice of transcendence,
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's some form of breath work or
Speaker 3: prayer or meditation or being in nature, some way of
Speaker 3: getting back to that deep sense that you saw when
Speaker 3: you saw light upon the ocean, when you had a
Speaker 3: mystical dream, when you held your counsel. Practice Number two
Speaker 3: is your people. So you've created here this beautiful international
Speaker 3: community You've created people right, a place to go to
Speaker 3: and share spiritual life so that we're not added alone.
Speaker 3: And the freedom and the authority to use our spiritual
Speaker 3: voice when we connect with one another. And I want
Speaker 3: to know you in the deepest way, and I'm interested
Speaker 3: in your spiritual voice, so our practice, our people. The
Speaker 3: third is the path, and that's where you started today,
Speaker 3: which is a way of understanding the biggest existential questions
Speaker 3: in life. How do I walk this earth? And I
Speaker 3: don't mean, you know, am I going to become a
Speaker 3: teacher or a banker or an entertainer? I mean as
Speaker 3: a soul on earth? How do I walk this earth?
Speaker 3: And then finally, this is something you said in our
Speaker 3: first two minutes. Yeah, there are purpose, my ultimate purpose
Speaker 3: on earth. So you're practice, your people, your past, and
Speaker 3: your purpose. That's a fully integrated spiritual life.
Speaker 2: Wow. And even like applying that on my own on
Speaker 2: what I've experienced quite recently. This is quite a profound
Speaker 2: conversation because I feel like it came at a perfect time.
Speaker 2: I think about, you know, my practice in many ways
Speaker 2: is like making this podcast, and it's thinking quite deeply
Speaker 2: about things which can eventually be confronting and that is
Speaker 2: most likely what happened in my situation where it was like, huh,
Speaker 2: I can no longer find like a link between all
Speaker 2: of my experiences, and all these terrible things are happening
Speaker 2: in the world, and people are suffering, and people are
Speaker 2: you know, sparing, and there's just all these things. And
Speaker 2: I've been really sitting in that like knowledge and thinking
Speaker 2: about it a lot, and I think that the community
Speaker 2: that came around me in that time was incredibly important.
Speaker 2: I speak about it in the episode where I spoke
Speaker 2: about this crisis. It was family. It was literally the counsel,
Speaker 2: it was it was the panel, it was family, it
Speaker 2: was my partner, it was my closest friends. And it
Speaker 2: really did show me who my closest friends were as well,
Speaker 2: which was quite interesting. And I kind of came to
Speaker 2: this conclusion. And I remember like being in my house
Speaker 2: and almost like pacing, like I would move from the
Speaker 2: bedroom to the lounge room, to the kitchen to the loudroom,
Speaker 2: like it was a very circular thing. And one day
Speaker 2: I was like, I just think that maybe not the purpose,
Speaker 2: but what was the third What was the third one?
Speaker 2: I've just already forgotten it The path, The path yeah,
Speaker 2: and I think mine was like, the path is just
Speaker 2: to be love. To just be love, like that is
Speaker 2: all you need to be, and that's going to come
Speaker 2: in many forms. But the way that you walk through
Speaker 2: life is in any single encounter with any single person
Speaker 2: being environment, your job is to just be this like brilliant,
Speaker 2: bright orb that people can look to and say, Okay,
Speaker 2: well this is love and this is kindness and this
Speaker 2: is warmth and the purpose of that. Obviously, right now
Speaker 2: this feels like my purpose. The podcast is the way
Speaker 2: that I perform and I approach the path, but maybe
Speaker 2: in the future it's going to be something else. And
Speaker 2: I think that also allowed me to not tie my
Speaker 2: spirituality and my belief in life to a specific career,
Speaker 2: to what I was doing right now, even to like
Speaker 2: a specific relationship. That's why I really like that model
Speaker 2: that you've just introduced to us, right It's like, no
Speaker 2: matter what stage in life you're at, you can find
Speaker 2: a way to bring meaning to what you're doing. And
Speaker 2: maybe that is by keeping an ongoing list of what
Speaker 2: you're being taught in the moment, keeping an ongoing list
Speaker 2: of things that have felt pivotal to you, creating like
Speaker 2: a narrative and a story throughout your life, and then
Speaker 2: reflecting on community, reflecting on what your deep value is.
Speaker 2: Is it love? Is it creativity? Is it generosity? I
Speaker 2: think that is a really practical way to think about it.
Speaker 3: If you can envision a world where everyone does what
Speaker 3: you just said, let's just say it was all of
Speaker 3: gen Z. Does we mean yes, which is walk a
Speaker 3: pass of abundant love, then you will have turned the world. You'
Speaker 3: have done it, gen Z, I know.
Speaker 2: And it's just, you know, it's wild to me that
Speaker 2: I guess. Obviously, there are so many different challenges and
Speaker 2: thoughts on the road and real pivotal crises that are
Speaker 2: happening to us every single day. But sometimes I do
Speaker 2: just look at people and think, have you it's obviously
Speaker 2: been a while since it's crossed your mind that life
Speaker 2: is short. Like I see people make decisions or get
Speaker 2: really caught up in small things, and I was like,
Speaker 2: it's you obviously, Like haven't had a reminder as of
Speaker 2: recent that you don't get endless time here and that
Speaker 2: this is very sacred. And maybe that's also the benefit
Speaker 2: of having that spiritual core as being able to make
Speaker 2: better decisions, decisions and being able to let stress go,
Speaker 2: you know, an anxiety, let it flow through. You're still
Speaker 2: experiencing it. Sometimes it's beyond your control. But being like
Speaker 2: this is part of the kind of the CODs that
Speaker 2: I was done. When am I going to make of.
Speaker 3: This so you've just shared, I think is even more
Speaker 3: important for people in their twenties, because well, let me
Speaker 3: ask you. I mean, it's my impression that people in
Speaker 3: their twenties in some ways are very gifted by birth generation.
Speaker 3: That there's more awareness, more openness in a good sense, sensitivity, perceptiveness,
Speaker 3: and that this notion that gen Z was more tuned,
Speaker 3: more feeling is true. But because of that, it's even
Speaker 3: more important for gen Z to build the spiritual core
Speaker 3: and walk a path, as you've described as the path
Speaker 3: of love, because you're going to feel things more.
Speaker 2: I think that you're right. I think that this generation
Speaker 2: is also more in touch with what makes us different.
Speaker 2: There is less need for conformity, whether that is being
Speaker 2: accepting of different you know, sexual or gender identity, or
Speaker 2: whatever color your skin is, or your ethnicity, or the
Speaker 2: power of your neurodivergence, whatever it is that makes you
Speaker 2: difference different. When more accepting of it, now like maybe
Speaker 2: that is also coming into it, do you think?
Speaker 3: So, then we greet you with love. If I'm neurodivergent,
Speaker 3: if I look the same or different than you, right,
Speaker 3: greet me with love. So that's already your path of
Speaker 3: abundant love in action. And I would say gen Z's
Speaker 3: is for all generations on earth right now. You are
Speaker 3: the path breakers for what I would call relational spirituality,
Speaker 3: leading with love, welcoming everyone to the table. And where
Speaker 3: I think the opportunity might be is in what you
Speaker 3: just shared, which is in your own being to hold
Speaker 3: deep love. Because even though gener he's so loving to
Speaker 3: one another, you've just talked about a way where there's
Speaker 3: also a relationship to the higher power or the universe
Speaker 3: that lifts and guides you that you deserve as a
Speaker 3: soul on earth, love and connection as well as being
Speaker 3: a source of giving that to others.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, I've got two final questions for you that
Speaker 2: might go off the path a little bit. Good.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: I've got two final questions for you. So when I
Speaker 2: asked people, I was like, what do you want to
Speaker 2: know about spirituality and its intersection with mental health? And
Speaker 2: a lot of people said, how does having a spiritual
Speaker 2: core impact something like anxiety or depression, which we would
Speaker 2: typically say, or like the kind of general belief system
Speaker 2: right now is it's quite biological, it's quite genetic. Where
Speaker 2: does spirituality come into managing that lived experience?
Speaker 3: For most of the twentieth century, you're completely right, people said, oh, well,
Speaker 3: mental health is biologically based and spirituality is just some
Speaker 3: airy fairy thing that has nothing to do with biology.
Speaker 3: But there's now a very rigorous, pure reviewed science that
Speaker 3: shows that actually built into our biology is our seat
Speaker 3: of spiritual awareness. When we shared that beautiful council practice,
Speaker 3: there were very specific circuits that we've identified in the
Speaker 3: MRI that we're running in your brain and my brain
Speaker 3: and in all everyone's brain at the same time. The
Speaker 3: bonding network that lets us know we're loved and healed,
Speaker 3: the parietal that puts in and out hard boundaries. So
Speaker 3: we're distinct, but we're also part of one family of life.
Speaker 3: When Universe a shift in our attention network so we
Speaker 3: can receive and perceive surprising new guidance, we actually are
Speaker 3: biologically built to have a spiritual life. That doesn't mean
Speaker 3: that spirituality is just you know, a side effect of biology.
Speaker 3: It means that body, mind and soul were one, and
Speaker 3: there's a neurodocking station for spiritual awareness. So to back up,
Speaker 3: knowing that it's no longer you know, it is now
Speaker 3: outdated to your point, and I'm so glad you put
Speaker 3: this front and center. It is outdated to say, oh,
Speaker 3: mental illness is biological. Spirituality isn't.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: Spirituality like all of their human experiences, has biological underpinnings,
Speaker 3: a neuro seat in our brain. And when we strengthen
Speaker 3: our spiritual awareness, we are eighty percent less likely to
Speaker 3: become addicted. We are sixty percent more likely to recover
Speaker 3: from bumps in our lives without becoming downward down major depression.
Speaker 3: We are far more resilient, we are far more able
Speaker 3: to connect with people. But it's not not as simple
Speaker 3: a story as oh, there's happy people who are spiritual
Speaker 3: and never get depressed, and then there's unhappy people who
Speaker 3: just aren't as spiritual. That's not the story. It's actually
Speaker 3: a deeper story, which is in our twenties. As I
Speaker 3: started sharing with you today, when John broke up with me.
Speaker 3: There are times of unbelievable pain, but they are not
Speaker 3: necessarily medical depression. They're not necessarily psychopathology. Very often these
Speaker 3: are developmental depression. It's the knock at the door to
Speaker 3: ask bigger questions, the existential questions that you opened with.
Speaker 3: What is my purpose? What is the meaning in my life?
Speaker 3: What am I supposed to do with my life? Can
Speaker 3: I trust human beings? And do I trust in love?
Speaker 3: Even if I'm not necessarily loved back? How do I
Speaker 3: want to be in this world? And that process that
Speaker 3: is built into our genes is a process of existential search.
Speaker 3: When we hit our early twenties, our capacity for spirituality grows.
Speaker 3: We can love even more, we can probe even more deeply.
Speaker 3: We can see into the deep, sacred, transcendent nature of life,
Speaker 3: in nature, in one another. We have these gifts that
Speaker 3: emerge in our twenties. But as this great gift of
Speaker 3: spiritual awareness boots up, it often can feel like a
Speaker 3: half empty glass of spirituality while it's coming online. It
Speaker 3: can feel empty, It can feel confusing, It can feel
Speaker 3: like how do I put my finger on this? And
Speaker 3: many people in their twenties say, you know, when I
Speaker 3: don't let myself think about these questions, I get even
Speaker 3: more depressed. I have no choice I've got to take
Speaker 3: this on and so I'm not against medication, but medication
Speaker 3: alone is insufficient to address the most important work of
Speaker 3: your entire life, which is building your spiritual core in
Speaker 3: your twenties based on science. And it's twenty five years
Speaker 3: a very good you know, top American Jernal Psychiatry Jerman,
Speaker 3: the American Medical Association top pier of view science. Depression
Speaker 3: is a gateway to spiritual awakening. In our early twenties,
Speaker 3: it is, and often in our mid twenties, depression is
Speaker 3: a knock at the door, an existential struggle to awaken
Speaker 3: our deeper knowing, our seat of spiritual awareness. And once
Speaker 3: we build that, the next time something goes wrong, we
Speaker 3: have built and ready a spiritual response to disappointment, a
Speaker 3: spiritual response to not knowing where I'm going, and that
Speaker 3: literally shows up in the brain as neuro protective against
Speaker 3: a recurrence of major depression.
Speaker 2: That's incredible. I love that there is this culmination of
Speaker 2: biology and then of you know, your imaging, and then
Speaker 2: also of this like profoundly intangible thing you know you
Speaker 2: cannot reach, you reach and touch your spirituality. Also, we think,
Speaker 2: but you're literally saying no if you want to look
Speaker 2: inside your brain. If you wanted to poke around, you
Speaker 2: would find these paths. You would find these neurons, these
Speaker 2: synapses that are directly responsible for you, you know, having
Speaker 2: a sense of being and a sense of place, like
Speaker 2: you said, the NeuroSTAT which is just so cool. And
Speaker 2: you know what's interesting as well is how outdated I'm
Speaker 2: thinking about, like when I did my degree and when
Speaker 2: I did like all my training, how outdated the current
Speaker 2: like the current system and education system is because only
Speaker 2: like maybe seven years ago, I remember sitting in a
Speaker 2: class and being like, depression is biological and that is
Speaker 2: purely it and there is nothing more to it. It's
Speaker 2: inherited blah blah blah. And there was nothing about like experiences.
Speaker 2: There was nothing about deep questions. There was nothing about
Speaker 2: you know how strengthening everything else in your life and
Speaker 2: not just social connections, not just physical health, but actually
Speaker 2: thinking deeply and having a philosophy that might bind bad
Speaker 2: experience together might help. So it's really incredible that you're
Speaker 2: putting it out there for this next generation of you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of psychology students listen to this show. A
Speaker 2: lot of people who go into be counselors, and therapists
Speaker 2: are going to have a different perspective. So I'm going
Speaker 2: to ask you one final question. If you had to
Speaker 2: give three rapid fire practices that someone could do daily
Speaker 2: to get to that point of having an awakened brain
Speaker 2: or building their spiritual core, what would you recommend.
Speaker 3: In my books The Awakened Brain, I list three practices
Speaker 3: that we use on the Columbia University campus. There now
Speaker 3: you're just done about thirty campuses in the United States.
Speaker 3: One of them is hosting counsel, which we just shared
Speaker 3: because that is your direct connection to transcendent relationship, right
Speaker 3: your higher power, your higher self, and those who truly
Speaker 3: have your best interest in mine. The other two practices
Speaker 3: are called the Road of Life, which cultivates what you share,
Speaker 3: which is a stance, an operating manual of how to
Speaker 3: engage in a dialogue with the universe. And then the
Speaker 3: third practice has to do with finding someone with whom
Speaker 3: you can share your spiritual path, because it's wonderful if
Speaker 3: you can go through whether you call it the Sanga
Speaker 3: or the fellowship or the journey group, but that you
Speaker 3: remember your practice, your people, you're passing your purpose. Your
Speaker 3: people are important, and you're creating people here. So in
Speaker 3: the Awaken Bran, I share these practices and I also
Speaker 3: share in the Awaken bring the references to all of
Speaker 3: these scientific articles so you can go online, pull up
Speaker 3: the article and say, you know, listen, I'd like to
Speaker 3: share today in my counseling class or with my therapist.
Speaker 3: There's a scientific article that says spirituality is really important
Speaker 3: in making my way through despair and depression. That when
Speaker 3: I'm recovering from depression, I'm building the spiritual core if
Speaker 3: I put my heart and mind and focus there. So
Speaker 3: it's intended to be empowering of your own birthright, of
Speaker 3: who you already are. There's no one who isn't spiritual.
Speaker 3: You are spiritual. It's not if it's how in your
Speaker 3: own journey you personally want to realize your great gift.
Speaker 2: What a beautiful way to finish the episode. And I
Speaker 2: want to say this book, The Awakened Brain, is it
Speaker 2: out right now.
Speaker 3: The Awakened Brain is out. It's stories and it's science
Speaker 3: and its practices.
Speaker 2: And that is exactly what we talk about on this show,
Speaker 2: Like you can't have healing and mental clarity without the
Speaker 2: science and without the deep thoughts. So I really would
Speaker 2: recommend going out and getting this book. I'll leave a
Speaker 2: link to it in the description of the episode, along
Speaker 2: with where we can find you and your Instagram, your Facebook,
Speaker 2: your website, because I think that we need more of
Speaker 2: these conversations. So thank you doctor Lisa for coming on
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 3: Well you are a magnificent voice for spiritual journey in
Speaker 3: this life. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, what a beautiful compliment. I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2: As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free
Speaker 2: to follow along and leave a five star review on
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. If
Speaker 2: you have further thoughts about this discussion, dm me on
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Speaker 2: chat to you about it. I want to talk about
Speaker 2: what you think because it was incredibly moving for me,
Speaker 2: and if you found that to be the same for you,
Speaker 2: please let me know. And we also take episode suggestions
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Speaker 2: if you want more content like this, I also would
Speaker 2: love your feedback. Until next time, stay safe, be kind,
Speaker 2: and be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very soon.
Speaker 2: Be