1 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Well, because I clean. 2 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 2: I listened to a lot of podcasts to get through 3 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 2: the day, and I kind of exhausted all the good ones, 4 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: of course Cereal, and went through all those pretty fast. 5 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 3: Mary West has had many jobs and worn many hats. 6 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 3: She's in her sixties now and living in northern Florida, 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 3: where these days she cleans houses. 8 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: I did it when the kids were in school so 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: that I could go on field trips or go to 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: their swim meets or whatever. 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: I like cleaning, actually, and so I've just stayed with it. 12 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: I was just. 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: Googling one day for like podcasts set in Florida, because 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 2: I really just wanted to hear about local stuff. 15 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: I guess you know, you came up. 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: Like I would even agree to do a house I 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 2: didn't want to do because I'd have four hours of 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: uninterrupted listening. You know. The part of the podcast really, 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: and it's still memorable, it is when you played the 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: clip of Victoria Avalon. 21 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 4: Mister Scott, this man. My name is Victoria Avalon. I'm 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 4: the prosecutor in the case. 23 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 3: Victoria Avalon is an assistant state attorney who questioned Jeremy 24 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 3: Scott after he confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in a 25 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen evident Charry hearing right. 26 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: And she was questioning, Jeremy. 27 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 4: Grandmother's dead right. 28 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: Leave her out of this. 29 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 4: Your grandmother's dead right as she is. She's the only 30 00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 4: one on earth that cared about you, wasn't she answer 31 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,279 Speaker 4: out loud? Yeah, no one's sending you any money. 32 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 2: Correct, No, ma'am. 33 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: You can't even afford to buy deodorant, can't you. 34 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: No, ma'am, you can't even buy deodorant, can you? 35 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: And I was like, man, she's just she was harsh. 36 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: I thought, man, that's awful. 37 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: I just felt so bad for Jeremy. So I thought, well, 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: I want to send Jeremy some money, like twenty dollars. 39 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, do. 40 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 3: You remember the first letter what you said to him? 41 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: I think it was right around Christmas, and I don't know. 42 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: I just said he was that I thought he had 43 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,839 Speaker 2: done the right thing to confess what he had done. 44 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: I knew it had to be hard, and that. 45 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: I felt bad because he had said he felt like 46 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: he slept with ghosts that night, and that was just 47 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: wanting to help a downtrodden person. Really, I didn't have 48 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: any plans to keep writing him like that. 49 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 3: You know, do you remember the first letter that Jeremy 50 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 3: sent to you? 51 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: Well, I have it. Oh right here, let me see. 52 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 5: You my mind, I have to have my feet sorrow 53 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 5: step sorry this. 54 00:03:47,040 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 6: In this vista see. 55 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: To things. 56 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 3: Things Bone Valley, Season two, Jeremy, Chapter five, Like a 57 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 3: little kid. When Mary first decided to write Jeremy a letter, 58 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: she wasn't sure how to reach him or where he was. 59 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 3: In order to deposit funds into an inmates canteen, the 60 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: Florida doc has to approve you. So I helped her 61 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 3: navigate the protocols. She sent Jeremi a letter, got approved, 62 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: then deposited a little money for deodorant and toothpaste. She 63 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 3: assumed that would be the end of that, but Jeremy wrote. 64 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: Her back January thirty first. 65 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 3: Christmas had passed and it was the beginning of a 66 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 3: new year, twenty twenty three. One day she was picking 67 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: up her mail and there it was. 68 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: I think it's on like a half a piece of 69 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 2: paper because he didn't have any money to buy paper. 70 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: It's torn at the bottom. 71 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead and read. 72 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: It, okay. 73 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: So January thirty first, twenty twenty three, Dear miss West, 74 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 2: I just want to let you know that I received 75 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: your letter and to let you know that you were approved. 76 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: I've been trying to find out who you were. I 77 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: even sent a letter to mister King, the one that 78 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 2: did the podcast on me. I have not had anyone 79 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: to write me in over ten years now since my 80 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: grandma passed away, so I kind of give up on 81 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 2: hearing from family. I hope that you can understand my 82 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: spelling and writing. I haven't wrote for so long, and 83 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 2: it's hard writing on paper like this because it doesn't 84 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: have any lines on it. Oh and yes, I did 85 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: like your Christmas card. You were the only one to 86 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: send me one. Thank you. 87 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: You said that you want to put some money in 88 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 1: my account. Well, I'll give you my word. 89 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: I will buy stamps and writing paper if you got 90 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 2: me off podcast. You should know what I am in 91 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: prison for. I've been locked up since nineteen eighty eight. 92 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: I was nineteen and I went to prison in nineteen 93 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: eighty nine. 94 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: Have been here since. I'm fifty three. 95 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: Years old now and right now I'm on cm IE Lockdown. 96 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 3: As soon as she started getting letters from Jeremy, Mary 97 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 3: agreed to send me voice memos talking me through them. 98 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 3: What really struck me in those early letters was how 99 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: surprised Jeremy was to be hearing from her. 100 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: He says, can I ask you something? I ain't never 101 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: had anyone to want to help me. And now, don't 102 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: get me wrong, I just wanted to know. He didn't 103 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: say why, but I'm guessing he meant to say why, 104 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: but thank you, and I hope you are well in 105 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: doing good. 106 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 3: Something else that stood out. It seemed like Jeremy wanted 107 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 3: to prove to Mary that he was worthy of her time, 108 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: her letters, and her attention. 109 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: In the beginning, he would send me exactly what he 110 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: bought a canteen, you know, to show me that he 111 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: was spending his money wisely. 112 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: When Jeremy was a younger man in prison, his family 113 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 3: was still writing and visiting, but then they stopped. Now, 114 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 3: all of a sudden, he had someone new in his life, 115 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 3: and it seemed important him to be accountable to her. 116 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: Like here's that he sent a receipt of something. He said, 117 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: I still have four dollars I can use. He said, 118 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: I did buy degodurant and another bar of soap, and 119 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: I just wanted to let you know that I use 120 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: that money for the good. 121 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 3: In those early letters, Jeremy and Mary are just getting 122 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: to know each other. 123 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: The third letter I got from Jeremy, we've talked about football, 124 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: Gardner Minshew specifically because that is one person in football 125 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 2: that I know about, because he's pretty hot. 126 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 3: At first, he's writing once a week or maybe every 127 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 3: two weeks. 128 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: I got to say. 129 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 2: His handwriting is really good at slants evenly and pretty 130 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: consistently to the right. It's incursive for some who never 131 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: made it through high school. He doesn't have a lot 132 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: of misspellings, so my thought is that he puts a 133 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: lot of time and effort into his letters. 134 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: By April, Jeremy is writing all the time, sometimes every 135 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: three days. 136 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 2: I just wanted to drop a line so that you 137 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: would have a letter from me, and then a little 138 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: smiley face drawn on the paper. 139 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 3: The letters get more personal. 140 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: I hate being behind this door all day, but I'm 141 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: doing everything I can to get off CM. 142 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: And then he says. 143 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: Mary asks him about his family and the people he 144 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 3: used to know on the outside. 145 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: He said, you ask if I heard from my son's mama, 146 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: and I have not since my son was twelve years old. 147 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: Her name was Jamie C. Allen. 148 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: I learned she got married, so I don't know her 149 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 2: last name. I still have family, they just don't write me. 150 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: I don't know where they are. My own mom doesn't 151 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: write me. My son justin m Allen, I don't know 152 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: where he is anymore. It's hard to think about them, 153 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: knowing that they are my blood family and won't even 154 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 2: let me know how the family are. I just don't 155 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: know what else I can do. I wrote my Aunt 156 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: Debbie in May. 157 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 3: The letters ramp up even more. 158 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: He talks about Missus, his grandma. 159 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: He asked me one time if I could get a 160 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,599 Speaker 2: picture of her gravestone. 161 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: Mary wasn't able to find her gravestone, but she was 162 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 3: able to find her Aleene's obituary. It had a picture 163 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 3: of her. Mary printed it out and sent a copy 164 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: of it to Jeremy. 165 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: He wrote back, I was looking at that picture of 166 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 2: Grandma and I used to have the same picture. When 167 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: I was in prison in Miami. They lost all my stuff. 168 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: I had another picture of me, Aunt Debbie and Grandma 169 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: when they came to visit me once in some picture 170 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: of my son and others as well, but now I 171 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 2: have none. Thank you for sending what you could and 172 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,599 Speaker 2: finding out what you could. Again, he asked, what, I 173 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: please find out his grandma's birth date, and I'm not 174 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: sure I ever did, so I'm going to follow up 175 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: on that. Then he said, I also understand that you 176 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 2: found some news about my brother. 177 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 3: Looking at Mary also did what she could to connect 178 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: Jeremy with other family members, just like I did last 179 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 3: time I checked. Royal Dean Scott was in prison himself 180 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 3: in Alabama. In Alabama, Mary found his mugshot online and 181 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: sent that to Jeremy. 182 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: As well, that's my little brother. I would know that 183 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: face anywhere. 184 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: Exclamation mark, exclamation mark, And he said he had last 185 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: seen him when he was about thirty five, and he 186 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: must be fifty two or three. 187 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 3: Now it's clear how much these family connections mean to Jeremy. 188 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 2: Dated May sixteen, twenty twenty three, he thanked me again 189 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 2: for sending the obituary, and he said he was looking 190 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: at it again and rereading it. 191 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the obituary. 192 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: She was strong, never turn her back on anyone, always 193 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: trying to help if she could. Sometimes we don't think 194 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: about stuff that she did for us all, and I 195 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: feel bad it took me thirty four years to understand 196 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 2: what Grandma had been telling me. I will always remember 197 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: the good times I had with her. If you find 198 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 2: out anything else or get any other pictures, would you 199 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: please send them? He said, you know you're really the 200 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: only person that writes me. Basically, it was just me 201 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: and mister King that were writing him. 202 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: He says, I also want you to know that I 203 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: really appreciate everything you have done for me. 204 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: I still find myself sometimes looking for help. Sometimes it's 205 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: good to talk. I hope that you've had a great weekend. 206 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: Take care of Jeremy Scott. 207 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: From his letters, Mary has learned even more than I 208 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 3: have about Jeremy's childhood. 209 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: He said that as a kid he used to have 210 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: fun in foster homes, never staying long, always getting himself 211 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: in trouble, and he said, I think that I might 212 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 2: have been in more foster homes than any other kid 213 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 2: growing up. Some were good and some were real bad. 214 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: I just wish none of this had ever happened. I 215 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: never met my dad, don't even know who he was. 216 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: I asked my mom, but she would never tell me. 217 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 2: My mom was a kid when I was born. I 218 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: think she just turned fifteen years old. Then I was 219 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: raised by my grandma and grandpa. 220 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: I live with it. 221 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: It does hurt, but I learned some time ago that 222 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,239 Speaker 2: you have no one to blame but yourself. 223 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: But it still hurt. I never did grow up. 224 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: Even now, I at my age, I still feel like 225 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: a kid. I'm always thinking things like a kid. Maybe 226 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: there is something wrong with my head. 227 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 3: During the sentencing phase of the Donald moorehead trial, when 228 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 3: he was nineteen years old, Jeremy listened to his aunt Debbie, 229 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 3: describe him as slow, with a mind that wanders like 230 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 3: a nine year old child. 231 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: They always said, even in court, that I had the 232 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 2: mind of a nine year old. He does say that 233 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 2: when he looks back that he can see how stupid 234 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: he was and he never did things the right way 235 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: until it was too late. He did say, ever since 236 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: he was six, seven or eight years old, he always 237 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: felt like something was wrong with them in the head, 238 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: and that he always felt like people were putting him 239 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 2: down or making fun of him, and that it hurts 240 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: real bad. That's one of the reasons that he doesn't 241 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: go too many groups or anger management classes. 242 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: He said he did try those. 243 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: And it didn't work, and all it did was get 244 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 2: him in more trouble, so now he just tries to 245 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: work out his problems in his head. I'm sorry for 246 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: my dog barking in the background. I have two dogs 247 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: that don't get along. I had told him about I 248 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: was dog sitting one of my cleaning clients, three rockweilers, 249 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: and he said he was familiar with them and he 250 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 2: liked having dogs when he was a kid. And he 251 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: put a little smiley face, which he doesn't do very often. 252 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: He comes around a lot. 253 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: Then he says, oh, I really want to get an education, 254 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 2: and education is printed in all caps. 255 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 3: Jeremy was barely literate when he was sent to death row. 256 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 3: It sounds like that's where he finally tried to learn. 257 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 2: He mentioned the old man who taught him to read 258 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: when he was on death row from eighty nine to 259 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: ninety three, and he said, an old man was teaching me, 260 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 2: and if school could teach me the way he did, 261 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: I could have been a new person. I can't remember 262 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 2: his full name. I always called him mister Jackson. He 263 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: was good at helping, not just me, but others as well. 264 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: He is a black man, about sixty five years of age, 265 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 2: maybe sixty eight, and he didn't care what color your 266 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 2: skin was. 267 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: I never saw him again. 268 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 2: I heard he got off death wrote someone told me 269 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 2: that he had died, but he says that may not 270 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: be true because he heard rumors that he himself, Jeremy, 271 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 2: had died in two thousand and two. I had ordered 272 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: him a ged study book, and he said that should 273 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 2: really be fun, because I suck at everything. I only 274 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: went to the sixth grade and I never got past 275 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 2: it math. I don't know at all. I mean, I 276 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 2: can add, and that's about all I've ever learned. The 277 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: next letter, he said that he got the three books 278 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: I sent, and he said, I don't know that I 279 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: can do this. It looks really hard, but I'm going 280 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: to try. 281 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: He says. 282 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: Remember I told you that I only went to the 283 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: sixth grade. He said, really, I only went to the 284 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 2: fourth grade, but they moved him up to the sixth 285 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: because of his age. I sent him a math book 286 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: on top of that, and that I had. I sent 287 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: him one that was fourth and fifth grade math, and 288 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: I felt bad doing it because it looks like a 289 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: kid's book, and I didn't want him to feel, you know, embarrassed. 290 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: I don't know what the other prisoners see, or you know, 291 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: if they make fun of him for. 292 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: Things like that. 293 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: You know. When I'm more reflective about what is going 294 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: on here about me and Jeremy writing letters, I kind 295 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 2: of think, like, Mary, you're insane because here you are 296 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: talking to him basically a mass murderer, and worrying about 297 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: whether he's going to feel bad because you sent him 298 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: a fairly childish kind of book. 299 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: So who knows. 300 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: Truthfully, I just don't think about it too much. I 301 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: just just write the letters, you know, as if he's 302 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: any other person in my life, maybe like a brother 303 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 2: or something. Anyway, So he says he can't do the math, 304 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 2: and he guess he's gonna have to just read it 305 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 2: real slow and try real hard and maybe something will 306 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 2: come to him. 307 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 3: Between the ged books Mary sins and the paperback novels 308 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: that I send him, it still sounds like he can't 309 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 3: get enough to read. 310 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: Mary, you told me that mister King is gonna mail 311 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 2: me the Game of Thrones three four and five. Does 312 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 2: he know how to order the books from the bookstore? 313 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: You might have to let him know. The next letter 314 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: I got was dated May ninth, two thousand and three, 315 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 2: and insight on the very front he had written in 316 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: big letters it said, Happy Mothers Day, Mary. 317 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 3: Sometimes Jeremy's letters are just his stream of consciousness what 318 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 3: it's like to spend day after day in prison. 319 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: He said that the last two or three days it's 320 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 2: been raining real hard, and it was cool for a while. 321 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: I was just thinking about summer, and when it gets here, 322 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: it will be really hot. The bad thing is we 323 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: have to wear our blues all day from seven am 324 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: to four thirty pm. I just wet my blue shirt 325 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: and then put it back on and sit under the 326 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: window and try to stay cool. 327 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: He says. 328 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 2: He washes his own shirt and pants because if he 329 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: turns them in, they never come back clean, and they 330 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: often just give you another pair, and they don't always 331 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: fit the same. So he washes them himself and that 332 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 2: way he knows they are clean. Then he writes, I 333 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 2: try to write a letter like most people do, but 334 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: when I'm done re read what I just wrote, it 335 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: never sounds right. I just don't want you to think 336 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: that I ain't trying. He says he felt pretty good 337 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: right now, it's not as hot and he's clean. He's 338 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: going to clean his floor, and he said, he takes 339 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 2: off his blues and will lay right under his window 340 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: and the rain comes in just a little bit and 341 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: hits him in the face and feels good and cool. 342 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: He said, I did this last night and then went 343 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: to sleep. I hope everything is good and you are 344 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 2: well and don't work so hard. 345 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 3: By summer. Jeremy and Mary are also talking on the phone. 346 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so it's August. Well, shit, it's September twelfth. 347 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: But my phone call with Jeremy, the last one I 348 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: had was August fifteenth of twenty twenty four anyway, so 349 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 2: I was not expecting a call from Jeremy because I 350 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 2: had not written him in a while. He said that 351 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: he was fine. That he gets two times a week 352 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: he gets to go outside for an hour. But he 353 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 2: said the cell was small. It was about eight feet 354 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: long and seven feet wide. And he said he is 355 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: able to shake hands with the cell MAT's next door 356 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 2: to him, but that right now he has no neighbors 357 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 2: on either side of him, which sometimes he likes because 358 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: it's quieter. But sometimes, you know, you miss the interaction. 359 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: And the operator was saying, you know, our time was 360 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: running out, so that's how. 361 00:22:50,880 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: We ended it. Yeah, I just I wonder what that's 362 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: like for Jeremy. Just to know that somebody's going to 363 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: be checking in. I feel like that has to be 364 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: significant for him, probably, but it might be a I 365 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 1: don't know. 366 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: Not everybody wants to be, you know, micromanaged by a mother, So. 367 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,719 Speaker 1: Uh do you ever feel that, like you're just yeah, 368 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: I do. 369 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: I worry about him. It's like a it's like a 370 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: parental thing. I'll ask him, has he easy versh in 371 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: his teeth and taking vitamins and all that, you know, 372 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,239 Speaker 2: you know, has he been to a dentist or does 373 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 2: he need glasses? 374 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: In my calls with him, Jeremy always asks for updates 375 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: on Leo's case, and when I let him know that 376 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 3: Leo had a big hearing coming up that could lead 377 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,719 Speaker 3: to his release, he wrote to Marry about it. 378 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: Mister King told me that Leo's parole here his next 379 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: week and he is going to be there. 380 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: I hope things turn out good for Leo. 381 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 3: Jeremy will never see the day where he's actually par old. 382 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 3: But he tells Mary how much it means to him 383 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 3: for Leo to be released from prison, you know. 384 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: Of his own accord, he said that. 385 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 2: He had heard that Leo had been married and he 386 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: was sure hoping they would let him out soon, and 387 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: that he did everything he could think of to help him. 388 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: But Polk County, it's just really bad. And he said 389 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: it's hard to undo or right or wrong. And you 390 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: know that's pretty profound coming from Jeremy, but also true 391 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: life is so fucked up. Now look at Leo. They 392 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: really didn't want to even hear Leo's case. No matter 393 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 2: how much we try, they just they won't even listen. 394 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: When will people just say stop, let's look at this. 395 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 3: In the spring of twenty twenty four, Leo was finally 396 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 3: released from prison. Mary talked to Jeremy on the phone 397 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 3: not long after. 398 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: Oh, I guess it's this. 399 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: From that call, he said he met Leo's former roommate 400 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: and he said he can't remember his name, but the 401 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: man was coming around doing some kind of education thing 402 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: with the prison and he said he had been Leo's 403 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: roommate for seven years, and he thought that was really cool, 404 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: and he asked the guy to tell Leo that he 405 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: wished him well and all that. And I feel like 406 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: I'm getting chills as I even say this, because. 407 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 3: He's a murderer, but. 408 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: You know, I really think he cares about Leo. And 409 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 2: he seems very sincere when he said stuff like that, 410 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 2: like he was really he was really impressed. He was 411 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 2: talking to somebody who actually knew Leo. 412 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 7: I just really get the feeling though he. 413 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: Cares about Leo, and that's just I don't know. 414 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 7: I'm not even stoned or drinking, but maybe I shouldn't 415 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 7: be anyway. I hate the way this has turned out 416 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 7: and wish it had never happened like this. I hope 417 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 7: someday I will come face to face with Leo so 418 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 7: I can look at him and say I'm sorry for 419 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 7: what I did. Yes, I still don't sleep good at 420 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 7: night and have bad dreams, but not as bad as 421 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 7: they were once I have learned to deal with it. 422 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: I just wish none of this had ever happened. 423 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 3: Jeremy's not just concerned for Leo, shows a lot of 424 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 3: concern for Mary, who is being treated for cancer. 425 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 2: He thanks me for writing ask about my health, and 426 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 2: I have to say that in my letters I sound 427 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: like my grandparents talking about my pneumonia, my brusiitis and arthritis, 428 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: and I really need to jazz up my topics just. 429 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: A little bit. 430 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 3: She shares her own health updates with him and how 431 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 3: her chemotherapy treatments can leave her feeling exhausted. She shares 432 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 3: a lot with him. 433 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 2: Actually, I must have had car trouble and mentioned it 434 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 2: because he said something about get your car fixed, because 435 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 2: you don't want to be driving down the road in 436 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 2: the middle of anywhere and it not work. Get it fixed. 437 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 3: And sometimes in Jeremy's letters back, you can hear his 438 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 3: anguish when he thinks about losing this connection with her. 439 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: I didn't write him back right away, evidently because he 440 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: said I'm glad to hear from you. I thought you 441 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 2: just stopped writing me. I should have known better than 442 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: that you ate like most people. I'm sorry for thinking 443 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: that you would. What I did was wrong. I took 444 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: a life and for that I will never get out 445 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,719 Speaker 2: almost thirty five years in here. This is my home. 446 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 2: I have to learn to live with it. I just 447 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 2: hope that you don't feel that way about me. I 448 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: can't stop you or blame you for not wanting to 449 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: write me. People really don't know me at all. I 450 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: have tried to tell people about me, but they always 451 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: looked down at me as a killer. Would you please 452 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: do me a favor. I'm not saying you well but 453 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: if you do stop stop writing, please write and tell 454 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: me one day like talking about this kind of stuff 455 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: though all these years, people just up and stop writing, 456 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 2: even though they said they wouldn't. I don't blame anyone 457 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 2: my family or friends. They all have their own life 458 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 2: now out there and their own families. I just wanted 459 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: to say this. It's been on my mind all week. 460 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 3: It was around this time that they gave Jeremy some 461 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 3: exciting news about his family. 462 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: Dear Mary, Mister King told me something that it about 463 00:29:43,680 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: knocked me out. Dear Mary, mister King told me something 464 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: that it about knocked me out. He told me that 465 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,239 Speaker 2: he talked to my son Justin, and he said that 466 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 2: Justin listened to the podcast and he wants to write me. 467 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: I have lived for this day to come. I haven't 468 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: wrote him since he was twelve or thirteen. I never 469 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 2: understand why or what happened. I really thought that I 470 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 2: would never hear from him again. I can't wait to 471 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 2: hear from him, so much to say to him. 472 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: Mary, I'm just full of it right now. 473 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: When mister King told me that he talked to my son, 474 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 2: I just lost it. I follow his birthday every year, 475 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 2: March fifth from nineteen eighty nine. I don't even know 476 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 2: what he looks like, how tall he is, how long 477 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 2: his hair might be, if it's straight. I go to 478 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: bed asking Justin to forgive me for my sins and 479 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: for not being there for him all these years later, 480 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: my son wants to write and talk with me. I'm sorry, Mary, 481 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 2: I just don't understand this feeling I'm going through. 482 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: I just needed. 483 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: Someone to talk with, and you are my only friend, 484 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 2: he said. I'm acting like a little kid. 485 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: Sorry. 486 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: I will write again. I hope things are good there 487 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 2: and well for you. Take care of Jeremy. 488 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 3: Justin is all Jeremy wants to talk and write about. 489 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 2: Oh. He had started talking to mister King about Justin, 490 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 2: and he said, the way mister King talks, he sounds 491 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: like a smart young man. 492 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: I guess I will find out soon. 493 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 3: You can't stop thinking and wondering about his son and 494 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 3: this family. He knows so little about. 495 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: Dear Mary. It was good to talk with you. 496 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 2: Evidently we had a phone call, he said. He got 497 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: an email from mister King and missus Kelsey saying they 498 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 2: were in Florida and that they had met Justin. 499 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: My son and his son vow. 500 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: You got a kount of slow. Why you ready? Why 501 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: he is two years old? 502 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: That makes me a grandpa. I didn't even know that 503 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: Justin had kids. He listens to the podcast twice. 504 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: Mister King said, I hope it doesn't stop him from 505 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 2: writing to me. Mister King said that he wants to 506 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: visit me, and he also wants to meet some of 507 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: my family. 508 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: I never thought I would be a grandpa. 509 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: I hope someday that I will meet both my son 510 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: and grandson. Mister King told me that he was watching 511 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 2: Justin play with his son at the playground. 512 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: He said, Justin is a dedicated father. 513 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: Justin has a girlfriend who has three daughters of her own, 514 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: so he. 515 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: Is doing good. 516 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: I'm so glad that he never fell down that bad, 517 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 2: dark road that I did. I wish things weren't like this. 518 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 2: I really want to know him, I mean everything. I'm 519 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: gonna be waiting for him to write me. Oh you 520 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: tell me here too. 521 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: I can't be happier. Thank you. Okay, that's it for 522 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: this time. 523 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 3: Hearing how excited Jeremy is about Justin makes me realize 524 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 3: just how much he's missed his son's entire life thirty 525 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 3: five years Jeremy has never had to navigate a relationship 526 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 3: like this, and I don't know if he has the 527 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 3: tools to do it. What if he overwhelms Justin? What 528 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 3: if he drives him away? What if in trying so 529 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 3: hard to hold on, he ends up making things even 530 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 3: worse for himself. 531 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 2: Well, mister King is still in touch with my son, 532 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 2: so I guess he's trying to put what he wants 533 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: to say on paper. 534 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: I know it's hard for him. 535 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: He's he's going to write, I will be writing. I'm 536 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 2: still working on a letter to him, so I know 537 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 2: it's hard. 538 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 3: I was hearing from both Jeremy and Justin that they 539 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 3: were writing and rewriting drafts of letters to each other. 540 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 3: Justin was unsure of how to find the right words 541 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 3: for a father he'd never known, and Jeremy wasn't sure 542 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 3: how to talk to his son he'd never held in 543 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 3: his arms. 544 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 2: I tried to do what you told me about writing 545 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: my son. It's harder than I thought. I'm still working 546 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 2: on it. I don't know anything about him. I don't 547 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: want to lose him, not after all these years. I'm 548 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 2: going to keep at it, Okay. I hope that I 549 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 2: get a letter tonight from you or anyone. It feels 550 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 2: good to hear from someone. Well, I just wanted to 551 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 2: talk to you again. I hope to hear from you soon. 552 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 2: Get your car fixed in capital letters and parentheses and 553 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 2: then a smiley face, Take care, Jeremy all. 554 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 3: Scoped with Mary's help. Jeremy is trying to be his 555 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 3: best self, hoping Justin will recognize his effort and honesty. 556 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 3: So you know that there's no possibility that Jeremy's really 557 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 3: going to ever get out of prison. 558 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: Right, and he knows it too. 559 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, what do you envision the rest of 560 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 3: his life could look like? 561 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think it would be well. I would like 562 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 2: to see him get a visit, a visit from his son. 563 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: That would be like a big high point of his life. 564 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 3: Finally, Jeremy managed to write his letter to Justin. 565 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: He might not write me at all. I hope that 566 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: he does. 567 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: I ain't mad if he doesn't. He has a life 568 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: to live out there. I'm just going over things in 569 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 2: my head, that's all. And he says, I hate that. 570 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: Sometimes I just get this feeling. Sometime I try not 571 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 2: to let it get me down. I'm going to put 572 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 2: my game of thrones down for a while and try 573 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: to read these others about the dogs. And then he says, 574 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: take care of Jeremy Scott. And then later there's a 575 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 2: ps and he says, you're going to make me cry 576 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 2: all over again, old Yeller. And he did tell me 577 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: later in a phone call that he did, in fact 578 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 2: cry because you know it's old Yeller and it's a 579 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 2: really good story. 580 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 3: Jeremy sent his letter for Justin to me so I 581 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 3: could deliver it in person. He asked me to. 582 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: Give you this. Is this like his handwriting or is 583 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: it that's his? Everything? 584 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 3: Is his handwriting? Next Time. Bone Valley is a production 585 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 3: of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company 586 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 3: Number One. Our executive producers are Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, 587 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 3: and Kevin Wordis. Kara Kornhaber is our senior producer. Jackie 588 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 3: Pauley and Hannah Biel are our producers. Britz Spangler is 589 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 3: our sound designer. Marianne mcune is our editor. Fact checking 590 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 3: by Dania Suleman. Jeff Cliburn is our head of marketing 591 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 3: and operations. Our Social media director is Ismati Guardrama. Our 592 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 3: social media manager is Sarah Gibbons and our art director 593 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 3: is Andrew Nelson. Additional research and production by Kelsey Decker. 594 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 3: Additional sound recording by James Johnson. Bone Valley is written 595 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:59,240 Speaker 3: and produced by me Gilbert King. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, 596 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 3: and threads at Lava for Good