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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace family fury after a gorgeous

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Speaker 1: young bride, Ellen Greenberg stabbed twenty times twenty two zero times,

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Speaker 1: including in the back, has been real suicide again in

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Speaker 1: a shuck report tonight. I can't help but ask is

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Speaker 1: there a cover up? That district attorney has got to go?

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: I just loved it, my prime life. See if the

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Speaker 2: floor with blood everywhere? Oh no, I can't see anything, shoes,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing broken.

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Speaker 1: She sleeps Ellie, can't see anything. She was stabbed twenty

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Speaker 1: and miraculously there was very very little blood on the floor.

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Speaker 1: But that's not the headline. The banner tonight is in

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Speaker 1: a stunning and I would say shocking report. Bam, a

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Speaker 1: rubber stamp on the last debucle I'm want to go

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Speaker 1: straight out to Guy DeAndrea, former prosecutor in the Ellen

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Speaker 1: Greenberg case, now high profile lawyer at Laffey Bucci de'andrea

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Speaker 1: ralch and Ryan. Why why is this happening again? What

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Speaker 1: is wrong with that administration? Did you read this report?

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Speaker 1: Thirty something pages of BS technical legal term b yes,

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Speaker 1: total BS.

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Speaker 3: It's outrageous, Nancy Grace. I've read it front the back

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Speaker 3: several times. The seven points that I found that she

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Speaker 3: relied upon are nonsense. I don't cannot wrap my head

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Speaker 3: around how she can make these conclusions and light up

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Speaker 3: everything we know in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm stunned. I'm stunned, and I want to point

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Speaker 1: out Benay Nour is with me, my co author, and

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Speaker 1: what happened to Ellen an American miscarriage of justice. By

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Speaker 1: the way, we're not keeping any money from that. That's

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Speaker 1: all going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Baney,

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Speaker 1: you know what I noticed in this new thirty plus

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Speaker 1: page report. Hey, whoa look at that bruising on her

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Speaker 1: wrists which was not addressed in the report as a

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Speaker 1: defensive wound. Bruising around her neck which was not addressed

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Speaker 1: as a defensive wound. Right there, that's what you call

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Speaker 1: a fingertip bruise. Look at that. You can actually see

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Speaker 1: the fingertip markings. What is very critical about those bruises.

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Speaker 1: There's the door that was quote broken down. What's so

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Speaker 1: important about these bruises is that they are unrelated to

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Speaker 1: the stabbings. They are separate bruisings, and they are not

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Speaker 1: in resolve. In other words, they're not healing. This is

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Speaker 1: from that evening, and they occurred before the stabbings, because

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Speaker 1: if they had occurred after she was stabbed dead, you

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Speaker 1: would not see any hemorrhaging. There wouldn't be any marchings

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Speaker 1: because the heart is no longer pumping. I'm gonna have

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Speaker 1: to bring in our doctrine just a moment. He can

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Speaker 1: say it much better than me. Ben an hour. So

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Speaker 1: much is left out of this fake autopsy reports, total

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Speaker 1: bs and you know what to you, doctor Lindsey Simon,

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Speaker 1: You're full of crap. Next, Benet helped me out. No

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Speaker 1: mention of the bruises is defensive wounds.

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Speaker 4: I could not agree more. First of all, this report

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Speaker 4: is shocking in every way, but in terms of the

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Speaker 4: bruise is she says in this report that those bruises

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Speaker 4: are come from being a teacher of little children. I

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Speaker 4: know many teachers. They are not covered in bruises. I

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Speaker 4: don't even know what to make of that. But what

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Speaker 4: really is driven home so powerful, powerfully for me here

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Speaker 4: is that this does not feel like an unbiased, fresh

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Speaker 4: new case.

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Speaker 1: This feels like a rebuttal.

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Speaker 4: To me, it feels like this person, this medical examiner,

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Speaker 4: took all of the existing evidence and went against every

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Speaker 4: single thing. It's doubling down to tripling down. But it

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Speaker 4: feels like a rebuttal, like an argument against what is real,

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Speaker 4: what is reasonable?

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Speaker 1: John Lucy is joining me on the case. From the

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Speaker 1: very beginning, I almost says, story, but this is no story.

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Speaker 1: This is real, This happened, and Ellen Greenberg's parents are

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Speaker 1: thrown into desolation yet again. They're not only fighting on

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Speaker 1: behalf of their daughter. They've spent their entire life savings,

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Speaker 1: they had to sell their house, but they are battling,

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Speaker 1: which to me seems like a corrupt administration. John Lucy,

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Speaker 1: Journalistpenlive dot com and The Patriot News Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, specializes

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Speaker 1: in true crime, author of Kill the Story, and he

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Speaker 1: has been on the Ellen Greenberg murder from day one. Hey,

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Speaker 1: John Lucy, I taught school while I was waiting to

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Speaker 1: find out if I got into law school. I didn't

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Speaker 1: get a single bruise teaching Greek and Roman mythology. What

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 5: No, I can't explain that either. She had basically cherry

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Speaker 5: picked every piece of evidence in this case that the

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Speaker 5: Greenbergs have on earthed that wasn't given initially. They found

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Speaker 5: a lot of evidence over over a fourteen year investigation,

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Speaker 5: and Lindsey Simon, the Emmy cherry picks everything in the

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Speaker 5: favor of the suicide and against the idea of homicide.

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Speaker 1: Joining us in an all star panel to make sense

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Speaker 1: of what we are learning tonight. Joining our special guest,

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Speaker 1: Judge Pat Dugan has served the last seventeen years as

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Speaker 1: a municipal court judge, has seen it all, also in

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Speaker 1: the Army Army Reserved twenty three years Captain and now

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Speaker 1: has his sights set on the Ellen Greenberg debacle. Judge Dugan,

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Speaker 1: did you know that her mother and father have spent

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Speaker 1: their entire life savings fighting this suicide? Ruling that first,

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Speaker 1: when Ellen's body got to the Emmy's office, doctor Marlin

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Speaker 1: Osborne ruled it a homicide, obviously twenty stats most of

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Speaker 1: the back for Pete's sake, one slicing into her spinal cord. Then,

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Speaker 1: after a closed door meeting with a rep, a female

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Speaker 1: rep from the DA's office who now has immunity, Nobody

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Speaker 1: can explain why she needs immunity on what went down

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Speaker 1: in that room and members of the PHILLYPD who already

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Speaker 1: ruled it a suicide on the scene. They have a

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Speaker 1: closed door meeting with them, and then he comes out

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Speaker 1: and says, oh, I'm changing my ruling. After that meeting,

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Speaker 1: later in a sworn to position, he states they coerced him.

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Speaker 1: They persuaded him to change his ruling. Can nobody smell

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Speaker 1: that except me? It stinks?

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Speaker 6: So Nancy, Yes, I'm running against the characteristrict attorney right

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Speaker 6: now and then an election in November. What I'm promising

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Speaker 6: if I win this election, I will do a top

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Speaker 6: to bottom review of this entire case. I will bring

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Speaker 6: in a team of experts, former homicide prosecutors, homicide detectives,

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Speaker 6: and we will look at the entire record. I will

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Speaker 6: review it with ethics and as an attorney and as

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Speaker 6: a former judge. We will look at the Philadelphia District

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Speaker 6: Attorney's office file. We will look at the Chester Counties

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Speaker 6: District Attorney's Office file, the Attorney General's file. We will

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Speaker 6: look at all these autops or reports. We will look

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Speaker 6: at all the testimony and depositions that have been taken.

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Speaker 6: We will interview people experts. Some of these people that

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Speaker 6: are on your panel today and then I will make

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Speaker 6: a determination whether or not this case should be reopened

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Speaker 6: because to me, just on its face, this case has

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Speaker 6: been a black guy for Philadelphia since twenty eleven and

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Speaker 6: Josh and Sandy.

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Speaker 1: Judge Diagan, I would never interrupt a judge if I

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Speaker 1: were trying a case in front of you. So I'm

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Speaker 1: really enjoying this moment. Judge. Are you currently or have

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Speaker 1: you ever been married?

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Speaker 7: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Okay? Has your wife either? Has she ever asked you

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Speaker 1: to zip up for zipper.

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Speaker 8: All the time?

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Speaker 1: Okay? So did you know what you're talking about? I

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Speaker 1: will determine if this needs to be reopened. Your wife

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Speaker 1: can't even zip up her bag zipper.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg managed to stab herself multiple times in the back,

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Speaker 1: slicing her spinal cord, which was not really even addressed

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Speaker 1: in this thirty plus pages of hogwash. Really, and not

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Speaker 1: only that, I'm sure you're familiar with the quote wrong

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Speaker 1: way blood on Ellen's face to doctor Kendal Crowns joining

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Speaker 1: us the chief medical Examiner of Terrant County that's out

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Speaker 1: of Texas for worth never a lack of business in

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Speaker 1: their morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnette

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Speaker 1: School of Medicine at TCU, and he is the star

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Speaker 1: of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Kendall crowns on Ellen's face. Blood. She was sitting up,

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Speaker 1: slumped with her back against the kitchen cabinets. Picture that

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Speaker 1: her legs splayed out in front of her, A knife

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Speaker 1: plunged in her chest on her face. I hope you

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Speaker 1: can see the monitor on her face. Blood was dried

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Speaker 1: from her nose going horizontally to her ear. Does nobody

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Speaker 1: get why that is wrong? Could you explain?

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Speaker 10: So the blood going horizontally, if her face is upright,

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Speaker 10: it would should be coming down her face across her lips,

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Speaker 10: over her chin. She would have to be slumped to

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Speaker 10: the side with her head tilted at a at a

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Speaker 10: very awkward angle for it to get that horizontal kind

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Speaker 10: of bloodstream down the face. It doesn't fit with how

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Speaker 10: her body was positioned.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: I just I just walk into my partner on the

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Speaker 2: floor with flood everywhere. What is the address.

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Speaker 4: Bleeding from?

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Speaker 7: I don't know what you.

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Speaker 4: Do.

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Speaker 2: You have to calm yourself down in order to get

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Speaker 2: you somehow. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at her right now. I don't. I can't

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Speaker 2: see anything, shouldn't. There's nothing broken, Alie.

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Speaker 4: You don't know where she's bleeding from.

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Speaker 2: Can always from her head. She hit her head everywhere.

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Speaker 9: She might have fallen, you know what happened.

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Speaker 2: She may have slippers, blood on the on the table,

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Speaker 2: her her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on

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Speaker 2: for rescue for her on the phone.

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Speaker 1: May have slipped. There is a butcher knife stabbed into

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Speaker 1: her chest, her heart. She slipped and fell on the knife.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen to more of that nine on

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Speaker 1: one call.

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Speaker 2: I just I went downstairs to work out. I came

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Speaker 2: up up the door and the lash my inside.

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Speaker 7: She wasn't. She wasn't answering.

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Speaker 2: So after about a half hour sometimes of breaking down,

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Speaker 2: I see her now on the floor.

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Speaker 7: She's not she's not responding, okay, breathing. I can't well

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Speaker 7: get her test. I'm to come down.

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Speaker 2: I really don't.

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Speaker 7: I'm going away up and mail up again.

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Speaker 2: I don't see her moving.

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Speaker 1: According to the police report, she was not on her back.

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Speaker 1: Why is he saying she was on her back? She

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Speaker 1: was sitting up, leaning against the kitchen cabinets. So how

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Speaker 1: did that happen? Was the body moved? Obviously it was

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Speaker 1: because blood was dry going the wrong way. She was

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Speaker 1: found by the fiance sitting up. Let me remind everyone,

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Speaker 1: no one has been named a person of interest, No

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Speaker 1: one has been named a suspect in this case. Let's

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Speaker 1: listen to more of that nine on one call.

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Speaker 9: Okay, okay, I tell you what to do.

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Speaker 7: Get here. Okay, you now by her fat, You can't

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Speaker 7: freak out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm a different.

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Speaker 7: Picking out, sticking out. I guess you call it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, don't you judge, Pat Dugan. She stabbed herself,

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Speaker 1: that's what was said on the nine one one call.

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Speaker 1: Or she quote fell on a knife. That was said

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Speaker 1: on the nine one one call. And apparently the medical

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Speaker 1: Examiner's office agreed. Could you tell me why a prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: the female prosecutor from the District Attorney's office, would have

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Speaker 1: been granted immunity about what happened in that closed door

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Speaker 1: meeting that they held. She from the DA's office, somebody

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Speaker 1: from PHILLYPD with the medical examiner who had already ruled

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Speaker 1: this homicide, and now today says it was a homicide.

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Speaker 1: But I was pressured to rule it a suicide. That's

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Speaker 1: in his deposition. Why would a member of the District

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Speaker 1: Attorney's office have immunity? I didn't have to get immunity

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Speaker 1: when I was a prosecutor.

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Speaker 5: Why is that?

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Speaker 1: And that's the question.

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Speaker 6: I mean, what kind of circumstances could happen behind closed

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Speaker 6: doors that a prosecutor needs immunity. Well, obviously that points

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Speaker 6: to some pretty nefarious things that might have gone on.

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Speaker 6: It's sort of like going into court and pleating the

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Speaker 6: fifth I don't get it. I want to hear. Why

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Speaker 6: find out what the hell happened?

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Speaker 9: Okay, okay, I tell you what to do. Get here, Okay,

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Speaker 9: you'l me by her fat.

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Speaker 7: Can't freaking out?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm I'm trying to her. Won't come off into

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Speaker 2: the zipper.

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Speaker 7: Oh alright, if she shaded her sellar plan, she sell

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Speaker 7: her Oh no, her nice checking out kicking out of

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Speaker 7: her hunter.

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm working telling it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Okay, well, don't tech it stabbed twenty

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Speaker 1: times the back of the head to the back of

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Speaker 1: the next talking inside.

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Speaker 7: She wasn't.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't answering, So after about half hour, I decided.

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Speaker 7: To break it down and take her.

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Speaker 2: Now it's on the floor, she's not finding.

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Speaker 1: A bombshell, A shot report, a rubber stamp by the

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Speaker 1: medical Examiner's office of an old and highly attacked, highly

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Speaker 1: questionable medical examer's report stating Ellen Greenberg committed suicide. The

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Speaker 1: bruises covering her body were not addressed at all except

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Speaker 1: to say her first grade students must have what mob

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Speaker 1: attacked her and bruised her. There were fresh bruises on

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Speaker 1: her wrists, and there were bruises that looked like if

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Speaker 1: I could see those fingertip bruises around her neck. And

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Speaker 1: the theory is that she was subdued by strangulation and

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Speaker 1: then killed by stabbing. This is what we call a

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Speaker 1: rubber stamp. To Guy DeAndrea joining us, former prosecutor in

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Speaker 1: this dish attorney's office who waved a red flag, sounded

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Speaker 1: the bell of alarm that this was not a suicide.

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Speaker 1: What happened when you did that at the time.

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Speaker 3: Guy, that's what's crazy. Nancy I, in twenty seventeen, after

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Speaker 3: doing a full investigation, went to office, including the Medical

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Speaker 3: Examiner's office, and said, the findings are clear. This is

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Speaker 3: not a suicide, and they agreed, let me be clear,

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Speaker 3: the Medical Examiner's office in twenty seventeen, right before I

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Speaker 3: left the office, agreed that at a minimum this was inconclusive,

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Speaker 3: and so all they wanted was the neuropathological report to

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Speaker 3: determine whether it was going to remain inconclusive or move

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Speaker 3: to a homicide.

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Speaker 1: That was how I left things in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 3: So, Nancy, it's now twenty twenty five and they've reverted

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Speaker 3: back to this doubling down. So I don't know if

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Speaker 3: they lied to me or what. But I don't know

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Speaker 3: what's happening when everyone was on the same page in

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Speaker 3: January of twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: I'm joining US Dodger Kendall, Crown's renowned chief medical examiner

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Speaker 1: in Fort Worth, Star of Mayhem, and the Morgue and

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Speaker 1: Lecturerer Burnette School of Medicine. This was a ten inn

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Speaker 1: kitchen knife. I'm curious about the angle. Was it from

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Speaker 1: up to down, right to left? What do you make

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Speaker 1: of the weapon and what can we learn from it?

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Speaker 10: So looking at the stab wounds, it appears as several

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Speaker 10: are superficial, but there are important ones that go very deep.

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Speaker 10: One getting the aortic arch on getting the liver, the

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Speaker 10: length of the blade. It can be shoved in because

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Speaker 10: the skin is elastic, can be pushed further than the

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Speaker 10: blade is deep. But the main one that is really

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Speaker 10: upsetting to me is stab wound tea, which I have

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Speaker 10: a demonstration knife here, but it's entering into the back

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Speaker 10: of the head and going kind of into the cervical

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Speaker 10: spine and hitting the epidural surface of the cervical spine,

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Speaker 10: which is meaning it's coming in contact with C two,

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Speaker 10: which would instantly make her a quadriplegic. So some of

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Speaker 10: the photographs you've shown of the neck shows hemorrhages of

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Speaker 10: the neck. That would be like someone grabbing her by

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Speaker 10: the neck and putting pressure on her neck. That could

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Speaker 10: be a strangulation. And the problem is is often with

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Speaker 10: strangulations is they incapacitate the person, but they don't keep

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Speaker 10: the strangulation going long enough to kill them. The person

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Speaker 10: comes back alive. The individual panics and then looks for

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Speaker 10: another method of killing them, often a knife because they're

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Speaker 10: very available in the kitchen, and then begins stabbing them.

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Speaker 10: Some of them are shallow and some of them are deep.

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Speaker 10: But the one that goes through the neck into the

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Speaker 10: cervical spine would have incapacitated her immediately, and she shouldn't

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Speaker 10: have been able to stick a knife in her chest

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Speaker 10: after that because she wouldn't have had any function to

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Speaker 10: her arms or legs or anything at that moment. So

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Speaker 10: it's very very.

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Speaker 1: Suspect to me.

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Speaker 10: It's not a suicide at best, I'd say undetermined, but

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Speaker 10: it really looks like a homicide.

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Speaker 3: Me.

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Speaker 1: Well, if it's not, put him up please, you know,

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Speaker 1: doctor Kimdall Crowns, is very rare that I get to

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Speaker 1: cross examine a medical examiner and think I actually know

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Speaker 1: something more than they did. But you said, at best

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Speaker 1: it's inconclusive. Isn't it true that there are only a

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Speaker 1: very limited modes of death manner of death. You've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of causes of death. You can be drowned,

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Speaker 1: you can die in an accident, you can uh. Modes

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Speaker 1: of death. Manners of death are accident, natural causes, right, suicide,

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Speaker 1: homicide and undetermined?

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Speaker 9: Right?

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Speaker 1: So I don't have all the did I get them all? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So do you think this is.

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Speaker 10: Suicide or homicide?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 1: No, it's not an accidents, not natural source.

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Speaker 10: Of a phone call that she could have fallen on

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Speaker 10: the knife, which is entertaining, but it could be a

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Speaker 10: suicider or homicide, right, And the problem is is you

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Speaker 10: have wounds on the body that would incapacitate her, and

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Speaker 10: how could she continue functioning after those wounds occurred? And

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Speaker 10: again without all the information, I would like to see

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Speaker 10: the photographs and the scene pictures and all that, but

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Speaker 10: I feel like what I'm seeing right now, and yes,

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Speaker 10: a bruise of that nature is not going to be

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Speaker 10: caused by a first grader because they don't have the look.

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Speaker 1: Look, do you see the resolving bruises to the right.

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Speaker 1: Those are blue, Those are what we call in resolution.

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Speaker 1: Those are older, they're already turning blue, they're starting to dissipate.

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Speaker 1: The bright purple one is the one that is recent.

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Speaker 1: Explain how we know that.

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Speaker 10: So bruses go through different colors stages as they resolve

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Speaker 10: or heal. Of course, everybody's resolution is different and how

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Speaker 10: quickly they heal and how quickly they disappear. But when

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Speaker 10: you're looking at bruises, you can say those bruises occurred

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Speaker 10: during different time periods because the ones are kind of

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Speaker 10: a blue gray, whereas the one in the middle is

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Speaker 10: a reddish brown of reddish purple coloration. So the big

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Speaker 10: reddish purple one happened before the other two did. But

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Speaker 10: the problem I have with that bruises. There's no way

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Speaker 10: a first grader did that to her because they don't

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Speaker 10: have the power, They don't have the grip strength, they

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Speaker 10: don't have the ability to punch that hard. That to

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Speaker 10: me looks like someone grabbed her by the arm and

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Speaker 10: was holding her arm down while they while they were

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Speaker 10: sticking a knife into the back of her head.

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Speaker 1: Regarding the bruise we're showing right now, once someone is dead,

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Speaker 1: they cannot bruise. Isn't that correct, Doctor funeral crowns.

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Speaker 10: That's correct. Once you're dead, you no longer have your

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Speaker 10: blood pumping because the pressure is gone and the bruises

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Speaker 10: won't form.

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Speaker 1: Another thing in the new medical report translation, cover up,

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Speaker 1: rubber stamp cya, cover your anus. These bruises are as

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Speaker 1: we've already mentioned, attributed to her first grade students. Nothing

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Speaker 1: explains away the post mortem stab, the stab that didn't

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Speaker 1: bleed because she was already dead. What she did that

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Speaker 1: to Could you explain why that is? A non secretary

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Speaker 1: does not follow.

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Speaker 10: Well Again, anytime you stab a person after their heart

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Speaker 10: stop beating, there will be no blood in the wound

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Speaker 10: cavity because there's no pressure left to fill it up

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Speaker 10: with blood. So any wound that has no blood happened

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Speaker 10: after she died, and so that makes it impossible to

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Speaker 10: have occurred. But again I still maintain that I feel

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Speaker 10: that cervical spines dab would have incapacitated her immediately.

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Speaker 1: Look at the diagram you're talking about the knife going

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Speaker 1: in from what we see right behind her ear. Is

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Speaker 1: that the stab you're talking about?

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Speaker 10: That's correct.

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Speaker 1: John Lucy joining us, author of Kill the Story, who's

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Speaker 1: been on this case from the beginning. For those that

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Speaker 1: are not familiar with the post mortem stab, could you

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Speaker 1: explain it, John Lucy, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: This was something that was only came to light years after,

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Speaker 5: and only because the Greenbergs were pressing the case. But

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Speaker 5: they found a sample of Ellen's spinal cord that had

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Speaker 5: been incised with a knife, and they determined there was

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Speaker 5: no bleeding. And then they had the pathologist who examined

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Speaker 5: the tissue on this under oath and she admitted there

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Speaker 5: was no blood associated with that wound, and that one

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Speaker 5: of the explanations was it it was post mortem. Now

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Speaker 5: in the new report, doctor Lindsay Simon offers another explanation.

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Speaker 5: Again she cherry picked everything and made the conclusions all

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Speaker 5: favored suicide. She says that nick to the spinal cord

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Speaker 5: was done at odutopsy. Of course that's been rejected by

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Speaker 5: the Greenberg's case.

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Speaker 1: So now she's blaming the post mortem stab on the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner. That they must have stabbed the victim. They

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Speaker 1: must have stabbed Ellen during autopsy.

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Speaker 5: Yes, that is the explanation she is using in the report,

403
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Speaker 5: and she is saying all of Ellen was alive when

404
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Speaker 5: all of the wounds were sustained by her, and she

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Speaker 5: actually ups the number of stab wounds to twenty three

406
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Speaker 5: to Chancre, she's saying she found up to eight shallow wounds,

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Speaker 5: which she describes as hesitation wounds, which are common to

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Speaker 5: suicides by stabbing. In other words, shallows put him up.

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Speaker 1: They're called exploratory or experimental wounds when somebody's trying to

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Speaker 1: stab themselves and they don't really have the guts to

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Speaker 1: do it, so they're kind of like trying it out.

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Speaker 1: John Lucy, are you familiar with the methods and Assessment

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Speaker 1: of homicide and suicide which reveals how unlikely it is

414
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Speaker 1: for a female to stab herself dead. Yes, practically never. Also,

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Speaker 1: many of the experimental exploratory wounds were to her back.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that true, John Lucy?

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Speaker 5: Yes, and the Greenbergs, to their credit, had a computer

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Speaker 5: simulation of all the wounds in place an imaginary digital

419
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Speaker 5: life into the direction of each stab wound based on

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Speaker 5: all the notes at autopsy, and it clearly shows basically

421
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Speaker 5: it was biomechanically impossible for her to inflict a lot

422
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Speaker 5: of those wounds to her back of the head and neck.

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00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 5: But again doctor Lindsay Simon takes the other side and

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Speaker 5: says that while these were the distribution of wounds were unusual,

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Speaker 5: her words, they were not impossible.

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Speaker 1: So and again impossible, Okay, if you want to believe

427
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Speaker 1: the first graders attacked her and she is an Olympic

428
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Speaker 1: gymnast and could do a contortion to stab herself in

429
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Speaker 1: the back, and isn't it true Doctor Kendall Crown's chief

430
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Speaker 1: medical Examiner Terren County, that you would have to do

431
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Speaker 1: experiments to determine whether she could stab herself in the

432
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Speaker 1: back and whether she could to have herself after she's

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Speaker 1: already dead. But there were no measurements taken off her

434
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Speaker 1: arms or to determine was this even possible. None of

435
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: that was done.

436
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 10: Correct, None of that was done. And also wounds were

437
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 10: not documented. Even those wounds of the photographs that you

438
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Speaker 10: have with the bruises on the neck were not documented

439
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 10: in the report. So to me, there's information that wasn't

440
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 10: even put in the report to begin with, So it

441
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 10: makes the whole thing questionable.

442
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: To the back a horrible gasp on the back of

443
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: her head.

444
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: Kick her head. I think she hit her head.

445
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 9: I think.

446
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: Straight out to my co author benet now Or, who

447
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: tirelessly comed through facts with me to write what happened

448
00:29:54,160 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: to Ellen, got a question for you, Bene during all

449
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: these nine one one calls, I don't hear a peep

450
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: from the doorman, The doorman that the fiance says came

451
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: up with him to watch him as a witness. I guess,

452
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: break down the door. Why am I not hearing the

453
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: doorman at all? On the nine one one calls if

454
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: he was standing right there at the door like the fiance.

455
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 4: Said, because he swears and said so you know in

456
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 4: a deposition that he was not there, that he never

457
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: left his post. The doorman swears unwaveringly and said so

458
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: in a deposition that he was not at that door,

459
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 4: that he was asked by Sam Goldberg to accompany him

460
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 4: there but did not, that he could not leave his

461
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: post and he was not there period.

462
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: Bennet, you spoke with the dorman, Yes, what did he

463
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: tell you happened the night Allen was murdered.

464
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 4: He said that Sam Goldberg asked him to accompany him

465
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 4: to the apartment, and that he said he could not

466
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 4: leave his post.

467
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: He said that video.

468
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 4: Shows that he did not leave his post, He was

469
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 4: not there, and.

470
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: He said anything.

471
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 4: That that is an out and out lie. That never happened.

472
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 4: Anyone who says he did that is lying.

473
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: Bene Hour, How did this whole thing start with dorman?

474
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 4: Sam Goldberg went to him, explained that he was having

475
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 4: trouble getting into the apartment where his fiancee was. He

476
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 4: couldn't get in. He asked the doorman to go with

477
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 4: him to accompany him to the apartment, and the doorman said,

478
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 4: I absolutely cannot leave my post and did not go

479
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 4: with Sam. He swears and said in the deposition that

480
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 4: he did not leave his positions, his posts, and did

481
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 4: not accompany Sam Goldberg to the door. That he was

482
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 4: not there, He was not standing there when the call

483
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 4: was made to nine to one one, that he did

484
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 4: not go with him. He did not witness anything that

485
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 4: happened there personally.

486
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: So there were no witnesses to the fiance breaking down

487
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: the door, and the dorman did not go up as

488
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: a witness. Correct.

489
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 4: And he swears to that absolutely and says anybody who

490
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 4: says otherwise is lying, and that there is no video evidence.

491
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 7: Of it, that he was not there.

492
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: So the video bears out what the dorman is saying.

493
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 4: Correct.

494
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace to Judge Pat Dugan seventeen

495
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: years on the bench, former Army Captain Judge Dugan, why

496
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: won't the District Attorney's office hand over Ellen's file to

497
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: her parents?

498
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 6: So what I really don't understand is that mister Krasner

499
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 6: actually represented there the Greenberg's in the death of Ellen

500
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 6: before he was the District Attorney, So he had a

501
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 6: personal file involved in this case before he was the DA.

502
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 6: And according to Josh and Sandy, they've asked mister Krasner

503
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 6: for that file back, and for whatever reason, he's not

504
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 6: given back that file. Now, there might be a few

505
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 6: things in there that Krasner wants to keep, you know,

506
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 6: deep thoughts and all that, but most of that should

507
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,959
Speaker 6: be turned over to the client. So I don't understand

508
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 6: why that personal file for for Ellen's parents have not

509
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 6: been turned over to them. I believe belongs to them.

510
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 8: The police changed their theory on homicide because they could

511
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 8: not find defensive wounds. So let's start there. Ellen's wrists

512
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 8: were both badly bruised, like she was being restrained. Number two,

513
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 8: there were wounds to her neck consistent with strangulation. Number three,

514
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 8: the two wounds that were in Ellen's back of her

515
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 8: neck and in her chest. The medical examiner of the

516
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 8: medical examiners before she was dismissed said that those were

517
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 8: post mortem. We've been looking at the knife wounds. We

518
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 8: should have looked at strangulation. I Patiki et cetera. Looking

519
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 8: at the layers of the muscle around the neck for bleeding.

520
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: From Fox News Digital, figure out how could that be

521
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: ruled suicide? It seemingly never ends. I remember do you

522
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: been an hour? The elation we shared with Josh and

523
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: Sandy Greenberg when a new review was ordered a new

524
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: review of the evidence. I guess I should have seen

525
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: it coming when you don't know a horse, look at

526
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: his track record. But I genuinely thought that there would

527
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: be an impartial review and Ellen could finally get justice.

528
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: That did not happen. Why are we so naive it?

529
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 4: There's not a better word than stunning and outrageous for

530
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 4: all of this.

531
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 1: And I have heard.

532
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 4: I have listened to that nine to one one recording

533
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 4: no fewer than fifty times, and it still takes my

534
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 4: breath away. She stabbed herself bell on the knife. It's

535
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 4: beyond comprehension. And when it was announced that this would

536
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 4: be reopened, people were thrilled. And I cannot tell you

537
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 4: the outpouring that I received after this news that it

538
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 4: was labeled a suicide. Again from people on Instagram via email,

539
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 4: getting called it's stunning, it's outrageous, it's unbelievable and devastating.

540
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: It can't be real. Wouldn't you agree? John Lucy, journalistpenlive

541
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: dot com and the patient Newshresburg, PA, author of killed

542
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: the Story. Wouldn't you agree Lucy that the last thing Shapiro,

543
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: the governor of Pennsylvania, who was then the state attorney general,

544
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: the top colp of the state had been the district attorney.

545
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: The last thing he needs to see chries to wedge

546
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 1: his big toe back into the Oval office like he

547
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: did with Harris, that close, that close to the Oval offices. Man,

548
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: The last thing he needs is Ellen Greenberg rising up

549
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: from the dead to bite him in the neck. In

550
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: other words, a full on investigation of the DA staff

551
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: coercing the medical Lexander to change is ruling, and the

552
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: ag Shapiro rubber stamping that instead of doing anything about it.

553
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: That's like, you know, biting a snake bite to the neck.

554
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 5: He doesn't want that, No, absolutely not. And he was

555
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 5: questioned right after the settlement that the Greensburg reached in February,

556
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 5: had a press conference that was called for another reason,

557
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 5: but a reporter there pressed him on the Greenberg case.

558
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 5: He doubled down on suicide before the new me doubled

559
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 5: down on suicide. And certainly any investigation that would show

560
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 5: otherwise would make Shapiro look bad because he had this

561
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 5: case as Attorney General of PA for four long years

562
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 5: and nothing happened. He claims there was a thorough investigation

563
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 5: and everything he turned up pointed to suicide as well,

564
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 5: and he's on record reiterating that as recently as earlier

565
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 5: this year. So certainly as this gains momentum, and as

566
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 5: you see, it's a political football now and play in

567
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 5: the Philly das race, so it could be an issue.

568
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 5: And I'm online all the time and on X and

569
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 5: it's all over the place, and a lot of fingers

570
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 5: are pointing at Shapiro.

571
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: To Judge Pat Dugan, seventeen years on the bench, Army

572
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: captain for the Philadelphia District Attorney's position, it seems like

573
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: an unholy caval. I mean, I'm on the outside looking in.

574
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer. My specialty homicide. That's really

575
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: all I know how to do. And I can tell

576
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: you right now, Dugan, this is no suicide. So the

577
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: only way to get around that, which I know to

578
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: be true, is that for some reason, they don't want

579
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: this case reopened. So you are going to be up

580
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: against it. Everyone will be against you when you try

581
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: to reopen his case if you get that far.

582
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 6: So, Nancy, I guess I'm a unicorn. I swore the

583
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 6: oath as a soldier and as a judge to hold

584
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 6: up honor and justice I am not worried about politics.

585
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 6: I'm running for office, but I really don't care about

586
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 6: the Democrats the Republicans, I really don't care. I care

587
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 6: about the victims and the rule of law. I've been

588
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 6: a public servant almost my entire life, and that both

589
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 6: does not have an end date on it. So I

590
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 6: honestly don't care where the pressure comes from. Wherever the

591
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 6: evidence leads me to is where I will go with

592
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 6: that evidence, particularly pertaining to the death of someone.

593
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: Reminder, no one has been charged or named as a

594
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: person of interest in the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Her

595
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: parents need our help. If you know or think you

596
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: know anything about this case, regardless of whether you think

597
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: it's inconsequential, doesn't matter. First of all, don't call the

598
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: Governor's office, don't call Shapiro, don't call the Attorney General.

599
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: So call the US Attorney appointed for the Eastern District

600
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania, which governs this jurisdiction of Philadelphia. We have

601
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: to bring in the FEDS, and I implore you to

602
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: please call the US Attorney in that jurisdiction. David Metcalf

603
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: number two one five eight six 't one eighty two hundred,

604
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: repeat two one five eight six' one eighty two one.

605
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: HUNDRED i never envisioned a day THAT i would, advise

606
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: don't call the, governor don't call the district. Attorney but

607
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: that day has. Come we stopped and remember An american,

608
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nuna's San Bernardino County, Sheriff's, california

609
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 1: just twenty eight shot in the line of, duty leaving

610
00:41:53,880 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: behind his pregnant wife and their two years year old.

611
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: Daughter american Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nunez Nancy grace signing

612
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: off goodbye, friend