Speaker 1: Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the show where we talk
Speaker 1: about the worst people in all of history, and every
Speaker 1: now and then, Jamie, we change ourselves for the better. Wow,
Speaker 1: we learned something. I got a big file cabinet in
Speaker 1: the background. I've been learning a lot of things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: keep just lie about a file cabinet for decades, just like, really,
Speaker 1: milk the most out of you could possibly can out
Speaker 1: of the fact that you worked for a guy with
Speaker 1: a file cabinet back in the sixties. Imagine if everyone
Speaker 1: had that foresight to be like, no, no, no no, you
Speaker 1: didn't understand. I used to work at a comptroller's office,
Speaker 1: and I feel like a real missed opportunity. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not too late. I hate that word, by the way, comptroller,
Speaker 1: because it's supposed to be pronounced controller, not the way
Speaker 1: the Massachusetts controller pronounced it. But funny. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: we've been talking about Boston a lot, and that's just
Speaker 1: one more reason they're bad. Um anyway, outside of boss parties. Yeah, Jamie,
Speaker 1: welcome back to the story of Bill Billiam Cooper. Are
Speaker 1: you are you ready to can? I see you've got
Speaker 1: your beanie baby. Um, I just got my e Babyanie
Speaker 1: baby in the mail. I'm so excited. And that's a
Speaker 1: death themed beanie baby, is it not? It's well, that's no,
Speaker 1: that's this one. This is the the end. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: do have a death themed beanie baby. Yeah yeah, that
Speaker 1: theme is the death of beanie babies. Um yeah, I
Speaker 1: got a you know mint condition the mail. And before
Speaker 1: anyone bothers me about it, that they're like because there's
Speaker 1: like this myth that beanie babies are expensive, They're not.
Speaker 1: I got these two for eight dollars together. So I'm good.
Speaker 1: I have a I have a I have an animal familiar,
Speaker 1: and I'm ready to go. Alrighty, well, let's some do
Speaker 1: some ships, all right. On July four, nineteen eighty nine,
Speaker 1: Bill Cooper commit did marriage for the very last time.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah. Yeah. This wife would be his most successful
Speaker 1: adult relationship, and depending on who you believe, their relationship
Speaker 1: may be evidence that he did grow as a person. Um,
Speaker 1: although that may not be true either. Yeah. She was
Speaker 1: a twenty year old Taiwanies a woman named Annie Mordhost.
Speaker 1: Bill was forties six years old at the time. Um yeah.
Speaker 1: In the grand tradition of all wonderful love stories, Annie
Speaker 1: and Bill were married in a Las Vegas Boulevard wedding chapel,
Speaker 1: and we know very little about their courtship. Bill would
Speaker 1: claim that Annie was the daughter of a nationalist Chinese
Speaker 1: official who had fled the country when Mao and his
Speaker 1: Communists won the Civil War. Uh, but you know, who
Speaker 1: knows what the funk happened really about her life? Annie
Speaker 1: came into perhaps like everything Bill says. Yeah. Um, Annie
Speaker 1: came into Bill's life just as his career and conspiracies
Speaker 1: was really starting to take off. She defended her new
Speaker 1: husband fiercely. At one point during a lecture at the
Speaker 1: Showboat Hotel and Casino, fight broke out between two uf
Speaker 1: O nerds, and he stepped in front of her husband
Speaker 1: with a hand on the hilt of an enormous kitchen
Speaker 1: knife she always kept in her purse. Um. Okay, actually
Speaker 1: they maybe found each other. Yeah, she was kind of
Speaker 1: right or die for a while there. Yeah, definitely seems
Speaker 1: to have been willing to stab a man for for
Speaker 1: this guy. Yeah. Bill had relatively few real innovations he
Speaker 1: could claim to have brought to the world of ufology.
Speaker 1: Most of what made him unique was his ability to
Speaker 1: carve off chunks of other people's work and weave them
Speaker 1: into explicitly political theories that tied directly into the contemporary world.
Speaker 1: And this is what builded best. Yeah, but also like
Speaker 1: making UFOs political, like tying tying alien not just alien
Speaker 1: conspiracies exists, but like tying them into things that are
Speaker 1: fucked up in the modern world. Um. His work was
Speaker 1: unique in the notoriously scatter brained and chaotic world of
Speaker 1: uf O nerds. Uh Norio Hayakawa, one of the most
Speaker 1: famous ufologists in this period, ran into build during a
Speaker 1: UFO convention in West Hollywood. Vote. A lot of UFO
Speaker 1: meetings can be dull, but on this night they had
Speaker 1: Bill Cooper. I hadn't heard of him. He looked like
Speaker 1: a normal middle aged guy, huge but paunchy, with receding hair.
Speaker 1: He could have been anybody. He made a couple of
Speaker 1: remarks and then read his secret government paper. He didn't
Speaker 1: look up, just read for an hour and a half.
Speaker 1: But what he was saying, the authority with which he
Speaker 1: said it was very interesting. Most of upology avoids politics,
Speaker 1: but with Bill Cooper everything was political. He was the
Speaker 1: first person to really take the UFO phenomena and extended
Speaker 1: out as a way to talk about global politics, history, religion,
Speaker 1: and society. It sounded so fresh to me, so intriguing.
Speaker 1: The most important thing I thought was to get Bill
Speaker 1: bigger and better vinues so more people could hear what
Speaker 1: he had to say. Again, it's like he's using that
Speaker 1: military cloud and that military delivery tot. If you've ever
Speaker 1: watched if you've ever spent hours watching UM lectures from
Speaker 1: different UFO conventions in the nineteen nineties, and yeah, most
Speaker 1: of them aren't great at talking. Uh. A lot of
Speaker 1: people who never should have been in front of a
Speaker 1: crowd to crowd public. Yeah, okay, Yeah, Bill does have
Speaker 1: right like he presents himself in a way that people
Speaker 1: take him more seriously than they do most people in
Speaker 1: this world. Um. So, this Hayakawa guy was responsible for
Speaker 1: booking Bill one of his first big speaking gigs at
Speaker 1: Hollywood High Um. And after this Bill went through a
Speaker 1: brief spell as one of UFOlogy's leading luminaries. He probably,
Speaker 1: like in the world of UFOs, is like having a
Speaker 1: talk at a high school a big deal. This one
Speaker 1: was because it's a big high school. That's true, that's
Speaker 1: Hollywood High School for crying child start exactly, UM, pat
Speaker 1: them in basketball all the time in high school. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what I didn't do just there, Sophie selfish.
Speaker 1: I didn't selfishly plug yourself. No, I didn't make a
Speaker 1: joke about the horrible pedophile ring that has existed in
Speaker 1: Hollywood for decades. Um, you did bring it up right now, though,
Speaker 1: I did bring it up right now. So we want
Speaker 1: to throw in a show where it is like really
Speaker 1: difficult to lower the mood further. We really did just
Speaker 1: find a way to do it. Yeah, and that's evidence
Speaker 1: that growth only goes so far, right. You know, we
Speaker 1: we we can, we can make some movements towards progress,
Speaker 1: but we always remain the people that we we were born. Um, anyway,
Speaker 1: shout out to which one of the Corries is the
Speaker 1: one who's been talking about Oh wait no, the Cory
Speaker 1: is the one that killed him. Um, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to multiple corries. Yeah, this this, this shouldn't have happened.
Speaker 1: I'm solving my beanie baby in a vice script. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Bill Bill becomes kind of like a big name
Speaker 1: on the UFO circuit in like nineteen nine, uh, nineteen ninety,
Speaker 1: and his speaking skills improved, and you know, during this
Speaker 1: period he drew the attention of a pair of Hollywood managers,
Speaker 1: Douglas Kane and Michael Callen. So, like, these guys are
Speaker 1: going to record in license Bill's lectures, and there's kind
Speaker 1: of talk about, like, oh, Bill might become kind of
Speaker 1: like a major a major media figure, like something like
Speaker 1: Alex Jones kind of Winda was briefly, um if you
Speaker 1: remember what Alex Jones was in movies and stuff. Um,
Speaker 1: So there there's talk about this happening. But Bill kind
Speaker 1: of immediately gets into a giant fight with these guys
Speaker 1: and proved himself very difficult to work with. And the
Speaker 1: fight this, the dispute arises over the rights to the
Speaker 1: master recordings of some of his lectures. Um. And rather
Speaker 1: than like deal with this the way that an adult
Speaker 1: in a professional context would, Bill calls Michael up drunk,
Speaker 1: um just just absolutely hammered and threatens to murder both men.
Speaker 1: Um uh, he tells them, quote, I'd suggest you be
Speaker 1: real careful, don't write no bucking broncos, don't do nothing
Speaker 1: you haven't done before, because I guarantee you no one
Speaker 1: is going to hurt me and get away with it.
Speaker 1: Take care, Mike, love you, and we're gonna make sure
Speaker 1: you amount to something, even if it's a pile of dogshit.
Speaker 1: We miss you, we really do. And the next time
Speaker 1: we see you, we're going to get you a real
Speaker 1: good present. Like god, yeah, it sounds like he's on
Speaker 1: an eight chan board. Yeah. And the next morning Diana
Speaker 1: wa wakes up to find out that his tires have
Speaker 1: been slashed. And since Bill lived nearby, like, it's kind
Speaker 1: of not a grid not a mystery, No, Bill, I
Speaker 1: mean not not a subtle man, not a subtleman. So
Speaker 1: um yeah. Dean reported Cooper to the sheriff, and Bill
Speaker 1: later wrote that this was all part of a scheme
Speaker 1: to disrupt his work and stop him from educating the
Speaker 1: American people. Um. Yeah, and that's you know, kind of
Speaker 1: what Bill. Bill is big into the UFO scene until
Speaker 1: like the early nineties, really ninete is when he starts
Speaker 1: to undergo a change of heart around the whole issue
Speaker 1: of UFOs and extraterrestrials. Um, so, what that makes it
Speaker 1: like less than ten years that he's heavy into that.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, it's only it's only really a couple of
Speaker 1: years that he's so it's just really a passing interest
Speaker 1: for him. Yeah, he's always partly in it. So basically,
Speaker 1: he claims that he starts to become like convinced in
Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties that like, rather than uh UFOs
Speaker 1: being like the hoax being around the government trying to
Speaker 1: cover up UFOs, the existence of UFOs is itself a hoax.
Speaker 1: He calls it the greatest hoax in history, and it's
Speaker 1: being perpetrated by the government to give people something to
Speaker 1: focus on while they ignore the real conspiracies that are
Speaker 1: going on. Um, which there's actually some evidence that stuff
Speaker 1: like that was going on that like the CIA and
Speaker 1: ship we're um, we're kind of pushing conspiracy theorists to
Speaker 1: discredit in general, like anti government sentiments and stuff anyway. Um.
Speaker 1: But Bill becomes convinced that like there's this grand conspiracy
Speaker 1: and and pushing fake UFO beliefs to sort of confuse
Speaker 1: and discredit people who are going to speak out against
Speaker 1: the new World Order. Um, it's like that's that's really
Speaker 1: what's going on. Um. And the root of his new
Speaker 1: theory came from a nineteen seventeen speech given by John Dewey,
Speaker 1: the famous educator and psychologist the Dewey Decimal System. Guy.
Speaker 1: Bill became convinced that the Dewey decimal system guy is
Speaker 1: kind of at the heart of the coming New World Order.
Speaker 1: Um So, in this nineteen seventeen speech, Dewey had made
Speaker 1: the historic error of idly speculating that an alien invasion
Speaker 1: might be the only thing that could force humanity to
Speaker 1: unite and like save itself from you know, wiping itself
Speaker 1: out in horrible war. And since this was coming at
Speaker 1: the end of World War One, you get where Dewey's
Speaker 1: coming from. Like, it's a pretty hopeless time to be
Speaker 1: a human being. He's like, uh, if only aliens would
Speaker 1: invade and we could all unite against something that like
Speaker 1: wasn't murdering each other. Um But Bill Cooper was convinced
Speaker 1: that Dewey's words weren't just like the idol and somewhat
Speaker 1: desperate hope of an intelligent man staring out at the
Speaker 1: devastation of war and hoping for a way to prevent
Speaker 1: more death. Instead, he became convinced that those words were
Speaker 1: a flagrantly clear signal of the secret plans of the
Speaker 1: New World Order. Oh see, I guess that that's where
Speaker 1: we we divert in our in our thought. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it is kind of like I think Dewey you
Speaker 1: could probably argues kind of like the root of where
Speaker 1: like that whole theory, that whole part of The Watchman
Speaker 1: comes from. Like I think Dewey's kind of the first
Speaker 1: guy to really be like, it'd be nice if aliens came,
Speaker 1: Like maybe we'd stop murdering each other for a single second.
Speaker 1: Is it is so? For it is so like you
Speaker 1: can understand where it comes from and where the desire
Speaker 1: to want it to you know, deflect the blame on
Speaker 1: what's going wrong in the world and in the country
Speaker 1: onto literally anything except the people that are already there
Speaker 1: and running it. Yeah. Yeah, so Bill gets you know,
Speaker 1: increasingly starting in like really into the New World Order
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory. And the New World Order conspiracy theory was
Speaker 1: like you'd call it a super theory. It was really
Speaker 1: more of a whole conspiracist mindset rather than like a
Speaker 1: discreet conspiracy theory. So we're well outside of like the
Speaker 1: realm of you know, JFK was murdered by the c
Speaker 1: I A. Right, that's a simple conspiracy theory. You can
Speaker 1: explain it to every anyone who's curious in a sect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the New World Order conspiracy theory is a mindset, and
Speaker 1: every new thing that happens in the world, you like
Speaker 1: a believer is going to kind of filter like file
Speaker 1: in somewhere in that conspiracy theory. It kind of takes
Speaker 1: it's one of it. Yeah, and you could see the
Speaker 1: n w O as kind of an evolution of Majestic twelve.
Speaker 1: You know, Majestic twelve starting in like the late eighties.
Speaker 1: Is this theory about this, you know, secret government that
Speaker 1: gets set up after Roswell and the New World Orders
Speaker 1: just kind of really an evolution of this, and it
Speaker 1: it comes at the end of the Cold War for
Speaker 1: a good reason. Michael Barkun writes that the theory came
Speaker 1: to quote constitute a common ground for religious and secular
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists, um, because you could tie in these kind
Speaker 1: of apocalyptic Christian millenarian conspiracy theories, but you could also
Speaker 1: tie in like completely a religious conspiracy theories, like you know,
Speaker 1: the jfk assassination, like it all fit underneath the New
Speaker 1: World Order, just kind of depending on your own personal
Speaker 1: beliefs um. And Bill Cooper was kind of the guy
Speaker 1: who very first plugs Majestic twelve and Roswell Alien nonsense
Speaker 1: into the n w oh UM And depending on the
Speaker 1: point in his career, he either did it to claim
Speaker 1: that like the New World Order um existed to kind
Speaker 1: of hide the existence of aliens from people, and then
Speaker 1: later that like, oh, the n w oh is is
Speaker 1: his pushing fake UFO conspiracy theories to distract people whatever.
Speaker 1: Like he takes both tax over the course of his
Speaker 1: career um very like large umbrella of conspiracies to yeah,
Speaker 1: it's all about bringing people together. Really, well, that's the
Speaker 1: thing Bill and all these other Bill is one of
Speaker 1: these guys who's just talking constantly for like fifteen years,
Speaker 1: and everything he says is adding something to the conspiracy theories.
Speaker 1: So if you actually really try to like to map
Speaker 1: out everything Bill believes and pushes in his life, like
Speaker 1: we would be here for days. Um, we're going to
Speaker 1: gloss over too much of this stuff to be honest,
Speaker 1: Like he invent to He not invented, but he's the
Speaker 1: reason people know about the FEMA death camp conspiracy theory.
Speaker 1: Like he's the origin point for that one. Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: not even really going to talk about it because it's
Speaker 1: just one of a billion different things. He's the origin
Speaker 1: point for Yeah, he's the first guy to published that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so fucking Bill Cooper. Um. Yeah, the n w O
Speaker 1: really took off after nineteen ninety and Bill was its
Speaker 1: most influential profit. His pivot away from aliens didn't isolate
Speaker 1: him from his fans. Instead, it opened up a whole
Speaker 1: new segment of the population to conspiratorial beliefs. Vast swaths
Speaker 1: of the country who would never have been caught dead
Speaker 1: at a UFO convention start, but it started to feel
Speaker 1: like something was wrong with the way the country was going.
Speaker 1: Like these kind of people would listen to Bill Cooper.
Speaker 1: They never would have shown up to a mouf On convention,
Speaker 1: but they listen to this stuff because it rang true
Speaker 1: to them, because they were looking for an explanation as
Speaker 1: to why things were wrong. Um that didn't involve like
Speaker 1: reading left wing political theory. Well that's just a waste
Speaker 1: of time, as we both know. Yeah, the left wing
Speaker 1: guys get into this too, Like this is really That's
Speaker 1: one of the things that's interesting about the New World
Speaker 1: Order conspiracy theory is that it's very influential in a
Speaker 1: number of sides. Um and Michael Barkin writes, quote, New
Speaker 1: World Order theories seem to provide a graceful way of
Speaker 1: exiting the domain of international relations and refocusing upon domestic politics.
Speaker 1: This is in the wake of the Cold War ending.
Speaker 1: Although the forces of the New World Order are international,
Speaker 1: they are assumed to be concentrating on domestic agendas, particularly
Speaker 1: the alleged destruction of American liberties. So Bill was savvy
Speaker 1: enough to see that, like, as you know, part of
Speaker 1: what's happening here. Why the New World Order conspiracy theory
Speaker 1: gets so popular is that there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: like Bill who are will permanently be anxious for the
Speaker 1: rest of their lives because of the Cold War. We
Speaker 1: call these people baby boomers, and they cause a lot
Speaker 1: of problems. Um, and when the Cold War ends, a
Speaker 1: lot of these guys needed something else to justify the
Speaker 1: fact that they were always paranoid because they've grown up
Speaker 1: under the shade of constant imminent nuclear annihilation and the
Speaker 1: New World or they're troubled. Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is
Speaker 1: are having a tough time. And this is what Bill
Speaker 1: taps into is the fact that all of these guys
Speaker 1: know that everything, like I can't not expect the end
Speaker 1: to come at any moment. And once the Soviet Union ends.
Speaker 1: They can't just lose that anxiety, right like they and
Speaker 1: and then they need an explanation for like, why don't
Speaker 1: I feel better now that the Soviets are gone? Could
Speaker 1: it be that up? Most of the problems that people
Speaker 1: were blaming on the Soviets were actually just like the
Speaker 1: fact that my own culture is fucked up and we
Speaker 1: need to deal with No, no, no, there's a different conspiracy.
Speaker 1: It's not the communist conspiracy. It's another one. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: Bill was savvy enough to see that he was watching
Speaker 1: the birth of a new movement in American culture, and
Speaker 1: he knew that movement was going to need a bible,
Speaker 1: and so in nineteen ninety he sat down to write
Speaker 1: One Behold a Pale Horse, would be published in nineteen
Speaker 1: one through bizarre little new age occult press called Light
Speaker 1: Technology Publishing. The book itself was four hundred and thirty
Speaker 1: four pages of documents and memos, all purported to be
Speaker 1: top secret missives from inside the secret Government working to
Speaker 1: bring about the new World Order. The centerpiece of it all,
Speaker 1: the primary document upon which Bill hung his ideology, was
Speaker 1: called Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars, which is another great title.
Speaker 1: Say both of these kicked the ship out of the
Speaker 1: title of Bible. Yeah, fuck the Bible, I mean behold
Speaker 1: of pale horses from the Bible kind of but yeah,
Speaker 1: so uh yeah. Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars Bill claimed
Speaker 1: it was an introductory programming model for new employees of
Speaker 1: Operations Research, a secret military intelligence organization tasked with preparing
Speaker 1: the country for authoritarian rule. And the document opens with
Speaker 1: welcome aboard and informs its reader that they are will
Speaker 1: be taking part in the Third World War, which has
Speaker 1: been going on for decades and involves the use of
Speaker 1: silent weapons on an unsuspecting public. I'm gonna quote now
Speaker 1: from pale horse writer written at the level of an
Speaker 1: undergrad paper and electrical engineering. Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars
Speaker 1: defines a silent weapon as differing from a conventional weapon
Speaker 1: in that it shoots situations instead of bullets, originating from
Speaker 1: bits of data instead of grains of gunpowder, and attacks
Speaker 1: under the orders of a banking magnate instead of a
Speaker 1: military general. Because the silent weapon causes no obvious physical
Speaker 1: or mental injuries and does not obviously interfere with anyone's
Speaker 1: daily social life, the public cannot comprehend this weapon and
Speaker 1: therefore cannot believe that they are being attacked and subdued.
Speaker 1: The public might instinctively feel that something is wrong, but
Speaker 1: because of the technical nature of the silent weapon, they
Speaker 1: cannot express their feeling in a rational way. They do
Speaker 1: not know how to cry for help, and do not
Speaker 1: know how to associate with others to defend themselves against it. Huh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can see why this, um, this is attractive to
Speaker 1: some people. Yeah, yeah, and it's I mean, now, it
Speaker 1: sounds vaguely familiar, but if I had heard this at
Speaker 1: the time, would have been like, yeah. Interesting. For a
Speaker 1: very long time, almost everyone assumed that silent weapons had
Speaker 1: been created the creation of Bill Cooper himself. He opened
Speaker 1: the very first episode of his radio series, The Hour
Speaker 1: of the Time by reading from this, and his favorite
Speaker 1: line to repeat was a lightened from the papers stating
Speaker 1: that uninformed Americans were beasts of burden and steaks on
Speaker 1: the table by choice and consent. Um. He would say
Speaker 1: it in nearly every episode. Okay, so he's got he's
Speaker 1: got that branding. The reality, though, is that Bill was
Speaker 1: something of a middleman for bringing silent weapons into mass awareness.
Speaker 1: The whole paper had actually been cooked up by Hartford
Speaker 1: Van Dyke, a convicted counterfeitter who would essentially cobbled the
Speaker 1: thing together himself from bits written by other paranoid libertarian thinkers.
Speaker 1: Um M, paranoid libertarian thinkers are, Yeah, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: it's interesting. So Bill, you know, silent weapons for quiet
Speaker 1: Wars is kind of like that that line, and in
Speaker 1: particular is kind of why Bill adopts the phrase, you know,
Speaker 1: wake up sheeple um, because like that he was he
Speaker 1: was referring to a specific thing. Is that like these
Speaker 1: New World Order people in their own documents, because Bill
Speaker 1: believes this thing is real. Um, like think that you're
Speaker 1: your beasts of burden, like they that's how they treat you,
Speaker 1: and like that's what you are if you're not willing
Speaker 1: to like wake up and realize that you're being played.
Speaker 1: Bill was very abusive to his audience, so he would
Speaker 1: regularly like insult and attack the people listening to him
Speaker 1: for not sure. It's like if his if his whole
Speaker 1: thing is if you're not participating in what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: you're a fucking idiot and you're and you're going to
Speaker 1: be hurt. Like that's a that's a place to start. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Um. So,
Speaker 1: through his book Behold of Pale Behold of Pale Horse,
Speaker 1: Bill injected a lot of a whole host of now
Speaker 1: common conspiracy theories into the mainstream, not just his theory
Speaker 1: about JFK, but postulations that AIDS was one of many
Speaker 1: secret weapons designed by the US government for use against
Speaker 1: its own people, actually to wipe out black people in Africa.
Speaker 1: Um and this, yeah, we'll talk more about that in
Speaker 1: a little bit. As it turns out, very little in
Speaker 1: behalor Behold a Pale Horse was original. Bill had just
Speaker 1: taken a variety of different pamphlets and like hoax papers
Speaker 1: that had been circulating, you know, over the conspiracy community,
Speaker 1: and bound them together in a handsome volume with really
Speaker 1: good cover art. You you should look up the cop
Speaker 1: book right now to see the cover art. Like it's
Speaker 1: it's good. Behold the Pale Horse, Yeah cover okay, okay,
Speaker 1: So all this stuff has been like circulating in sort
Speaker 1: of conspiracy nut communities, but you'd get it as like
Speaker 1: you know, somebody handling up Yes, yeah, yeah, it's pretty,
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's it's well organized, and you know,
Speaker 1: this stuff had been existed for a while, but if
Speaker 1: you if you came across it, it would be like
Speaker 1: you'd run into someone's poorly mimiographed copies of Silent Weapons
Speaker 1: for Quiet Wars and a gun show or something next
Speaker 1: to it, like Nazi flags. And Bill puts them in
Speaker 1: this really like good cover art, like well bound, like
Speaker 1: actual book. And this is again still a period of
Speaker 1: time in which books means something to people. Um. So
Speaker 1: this ship takes off, and it's a problem that this
Speaker 1: ship takes off because everything in Bill's book isn't like
Speaker 1: Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars. Obviously it's nonsense. Um, but
Speaker 1: it's hard to It's not the most problematic thing in
Speaker 1: the world. It's just it's just a fake military document. Um.
Speaker 1: Bill doesn't just include stuff like that, among other things,
Speaker 1: Behold the Pale Horse includes the entirety of the Protocols
Speaker 1: of the Elders of Zion. Um. Yeah, okay, I want
Speaker 1: to say that that escalated, but it really is just
Speaker 1: an ex logical step, and it's really funny. The way
Speaker 1: he does it is kind of objectively hilarious. So if
Speaker 1: you aren't aware, the protocols are probably the most influential
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory of all time. They purport to be like
Speaker 1: silent weapons, kind of like a secret document from this
Speaker 1: organization that got leaked out. And in the case of
Speaker 1: the protocols, it's this meeting of a group of Jewish
Speaker 1: elders plotting the overthrow in domination of the gentile world. Now,
Speaker 1: the reality is that the protocols were a forgery cooked
Speaker 1: up by the Anon Czarist, Russia's equivalent of the c
Speaker 1: I a UM. The protocols like that they were, they
Speaker 1: were basically this Russian intelligence agencies like disinformation plot Um
Speaker 1: and UH. They were incredibly successfully took on a life
Speaker 1: of their own, spread all throughout Western Europe UM and
Speaker 1: obviously like helped to spread this kind of specific type
Speaker 1: of anti Semitic conspiracy theory all across Europe, and most
Speaker 1: of the Nazis actually knew it was a fake um
Speaker 1: and they thought it was a pretty clumsy fake at that,
Speaker 1: but they benefited from the conspiratorial melieu that the protocols
Speaker 1: helped to create in Europe, which like definitely helped to
Speaker 1: enable the Holocaust. So the Protocols of the Elders of
Speaker 1: Ziland have Zion maybe have the highest body count of
Speaker 1: any conspiracy theory in history and after World War Two,
Speaker 1: you know, for obvious reasons, the protocol is kind of languished.
Speaker 1: People didn't weren't so interested in anti Semitic conspiracy theories
Speaker 1: for a little while. Um yeah, some bad pr for that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: bad pr for anti semitism. Um. So they would only
Speaker 1: really surface when some Yeah yeah, they would pop up
Speaker 1: every now and then, but it was only really like
Speaker 1: neo Nazis who were willing to republish them. Um. And
Speaker 1: they never got any kind of white distribution. George Lincoln
Speaker 1: Rockwell was probably like the most prominent guy to try
Speaker 1: to republish the protocols. And yeah, yeah, yeah, so nobody.
Speaker 1: You're right, I didn't even Jamie. Yeah, Jamie's onto something
Speaker 1: in their name where the evil lies. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: know where the evil doesn't lie, Robert and the products
Speaker 1: and services that support this podcast. Sometimes I'm proud of myself.
Speaker 1: And yes, yeah, that part all right, we're back. So
Speaker 1: the Protocols of the Elders of zion Um kind of
Speaker 1: languish and obscurity for decades after World War Two. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: nobody really spreads them. They're not popular in the United States,
Speaker 1: They're not particularly well known in the United States, and
Speaker 1: then in nineteen Bill Cooper republishes them in their entirety
Speaker 1: in his book Um And to make it funnier Bill
Speaker 1: Bill was not an avowed anti Semite. Bill definitely believed
Speaker 1: a lot of anti Semitic things, but like it wasn't
Speaker 1: a motivating factor for him. He didn't believe the protocols
Speaker 1: were evidence of a Jewish conspiracy. He thought they were
Speaker 1: the real minutes of an of the Illuminati, basically of
Speaker 1: the New World Orders conspiracy theory um. And they've been
Speaker 1: blamed on Jews to throw the world off of their
Speaker 1: scent Um. So he really it's even worse to be like,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna throw it in because it seems like
Speaker 1: something that people no, No, he thinks it's true, but
Speaker 1: it's it's not the Jews, it's the New World Order
Speaker 1: and the Jews. The New World Order blamed it on
Speaker 1: the Jews to hide the reality of what was happening.
Speaker 1: So Bill, before he publishes the entirety of the Protocols
Speaker 1: of the Elders of Zion, he runs this note, and
Speaker 1: this is the only note he runs with the Protocols
Speaker 1: of the Elders of Zion. Every aspect of this plan
Speaker 1: to subjugate the world has since become reality, validating the
Speaker 1: authenticity of conspiracy. This has been written intentionally to deceive people.
Speaker 1: For clear understanding, the word Zion should be psion. Any
Speaker 1: references to Jews should be replaced with the word Illuminati,
Speaker 1: and the word goum should be replaced with the word cattle.
Speaker 1: So he's like, replace Jews with Illuminati. But this book
Speaker 1: of this, like this anti Semitic conspiracy document is good
Speaker 1: stuff otherwise, right there, Like otherwise it's basically right. But
Speaker 1: just take out yeah, just take out the Jews. And
Speaker 1: I'm not going to take out the Jews myself. You've
Speaker 1: got to do it in your own head. So yeah,
Speaker 1: he's not willing to do any sort of leg where
Speaker 1: he makes it sound like a simple clerical error that
Speaker 1: was made and unfortunate really for the whole world. Behold
Speaker 1: a Pale Horse went on to become the single most
Speaker 1: influential underground publishing hit in history. It's sold well over
Speaker 1: three hundred thousand copies as of this the publication of
Speaker 1: this episode, but that number vastly understates its influence because
Speaker 1: Behold a Pale Horse was and remains one of the
Speaker 1: most frequently stolen books in the country and in incarcerated
Speaker 1: people across the nation. UM also started passing it along,
Speaker 1: so there will be copies of this still are in
Speaker 1: prisons all over the country that just get like handed
Speaker 1: to people when they come into prison. Um. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's it's it's. It spreads through two different chunks of
Speaker 1: the underground community, the kind of right wing militia community
Speaker 1: where you'd expect it, but it also becomes incredibly influential
Speaker 1: among the burgeoning hip hop community of the early nineteen nineties.
Speaker 1: This unpacked for me. Yeah, I don't yeah, we will,
Speaker 1: don't worry. Yeah, So Behold a Pale Horse resurrected the
Speaker 1: protocols of the Elders of Zion UM and it kind
Speaker 1: of laundered them through a lens of general distrust with
Speaker 1: the state of the world, and as a result, Bill
Speaker 1: Cooper was able to ensure that this once obscure tract
Speaker 1: spread by like wildfire among segments of the American population
Speaker 1: it had never reached before, primarily inner city black Americans
Speaker 1: like obviously the kind of people handing out the protocols
Speaker 1: the Elders of Zion and the thirties weren't given them
Speaker 1: to black people. But now this book starts spreading among
Speaker 1: like a lot of people who are like a lot
Speaker 1: of black men in the inner cities who have this again,
Speaker 1: this this thing that is at the core of Bill
Speaker 1: Cooper's work. They know ship's fucked up, right, um and
Speaker 1: Bill Cooper given, here's a whole book on how everything's
Speaker 1: fucked up, and it happens to include the protocols of
Speaker 1: the Elders of Zion Um and yeah. Uh So as
Speaker 1: this this kind of brings us to, yeah, the thing
Speaker 1: I've been teasing for a while, which is that Bill
Speaker 1: Cooper is one of the most influential white men in
Speaker 1: the history of rap um and Yeah. Biographer Mark Jacobson explains, quote,
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one to five thousand and seventy seven
Speaker 1: people were murdered in New York, by far the highest
Speaker 1: two year total in city history. It was the crack play,
Speaker 1: and a new generation arose to speak truth to the
Speaker 1: ongoing trauma of urban life. Many of the rappers who
Speaker 1: emerged during the early nineteen nineties, the Great Wu Tang's
Speaker 1: the Formidable Nas of the Queensbridge Houses were deeply influenced
Speaker 1: by the five Percenters a k a. The Nation of
Speaker 1: Gods and Earth's. The movement had been founded in the
Speaker 1: late nineteen sixties by Clarence Edwards Smith a k A.
Speaker 1: Clarence thirteen X, and eventually Father Allah kicked out of
Speaker 1: Elijah Muhammad's Nation of Islam forget heresy and gambling. Father
Speaker 1: Allah had said that it was necessary for black men
Speaker 1: and women to become lyrical assassins. The tongue was the sword,
Speaker 1: Father Allah said, and when properly sharpened, it could take
Speaker 1: more heads with the word than any army with machine
Speaker 1: guns could never do. And for many lyrical assassins, Bill
Speaker 1: Cooper's Behold a Pale Horse became a key text. Rappers
Speaker 1: who have mentioned Cooper in his book or his book
Speaker 1: include the Wu Tang Clan, Big Daddy, Kane, Busta Rhymes, Tupac, Shakur,
Speaker 1: Talib Quelli, nas Rakim, Poor, Righteous Teachers, Gang Star Goody Mob,
Speaker 1: suicide Boys, Boogie Monsters, Wise Intelligent, public Enemy, Miss math Aslan,
Speaker 1: Lord Allah, ras Cass, and the Lost Children of Babylon,
Speaker 1: who told their listeners to prepare to meet your fate
Speaker 1: like William Cooper when the stormtroopers breach your Gate a
Speaker 1: little bit of foreshadowing there. Um, old, yeah, that's like, yeahbuddy, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's everybody. He's here the fucking One of the first
Speaker 1: albums that the Wu Tang Clan like produces is called
Speaker 1: Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars. Yeah, God is like the
Speaker 1: side thing. It's it's nas, it's nas. I'm sorry, clearly
Speaker 1: I'm not on Mark Jacobson, Bill's biographer, actually talks to
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys and like, is really knowledgeable
Speaker 1: about hip hop? I am not, and I apologize. Um,
Speaker 1: that is like old dirty bastard of the Wu Tang
Speaker 1: Clan explained, behold a pale horses appeal better than anyone else.
Speaker 1: Everybody gets fucked. William Cooper tells you who's who's fucking you.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, one of the things he tells these people
Speaker 1: is it's the juice, Like you just have to like
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, yeah, that's an unfortunate aspect of his influence.
Speaker 1: So you can see why black guys in particular, living
Speaker 1: through inner city crime waves and like police, you know,
Speaker 1: crackdowns and violence and stuff, would find documents like Silent
Speaker 1: Weapons for Quiet Wars compelling Bill's framework of conspiracies fit
Speaker 1: in with things that many black folks already believed, like
Speaker 1: that the CIA had introduced crack to the inner cities,
Speaker 1: and there's obviously there's actually a decent amount of truth
Speaker 1: to that. Um In an interview before his own death,
Speaker 1: Prodigy told Mark Jacobson, William Cooper wrote, what everyone kind
Speaker 1: of new, and that's like a big part of his
Speaker 1: influences that he's He's giving people this really cohesive, um
Speaker 1: bound guide to all of the different things, all of
Speaker 1: the like, hey, your life is fucked, Like here's what Like,
Speaker 1: here's you can pick and choose which conspiracy theories you believe,
Speaker 1: explain why, and just by like putting together it sounds
Speaker 1: like the greatest hits, uh conspiracy theories of like hey,
Speaker 1: if this one doesn't work for you, go to the
Speaker 1: next chapter. Maybe this one will work for you. Yeah, okay, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: And he introduced his new followers to a whole world
Speaker 1: of other conspiracy theories, not just the protocols of the
Speaker 1: Elders of Zion, but some of Bill's more modern paranoia,
Speaker 1: like the idea that AIDS had been created in a
Speaker 1: test to by the US government to wipe out Africans.
Speaker 1: This theory spread like wildfire and even reached Manteo Sha
Speaker 1: la la simoon. Um, I'm gonna pronounce that wrong. I'm
Speaker 1: terribly sorry. South Africa's health minister, the New Republic Rights
Speaker 1: that he quote, while still in office and at the
Speaker 1: height of that country's AIDS crisis, distributed copies of the
Speaker 1: chapter that argue that AIDS was introduced into the African
Speaker 1: population by a global conspiracy with the goal of reducing
Speaker 1: the continents population. Bill Cooper is very influential because well
Speaker 1: it's as is always the case with this ship. We
Speaker 1: can talk. We'll talk about the crack epidemic at some
Speaker 1: point and how they're the real conspiracy there differs somewhat
Speaker 1: from the ones that most people believes. But like the
Speaker 1: basic idea of it is true, which is that um,
Speaker 1: in large part due to the c I a crack
Speaker 1: got to the United States and huge amounts like that,
Speaker 1: they played a major role in getting here. It's just
Speaker 1: a different role than a lot of people think. Um. Likewise,
Speaker 1: the AIDS crisis gets so bad worldwide in large part
Speaker 1: due to the US government's complete refusal to give a
Speaker 1: shit about it. Um. Yeah, it's just not the reason.
Speaker 1: But like something is fucked up there, and people want
Speaker 1: like if you provide people with the convention like a
Speaker 1: compelling theory that ties together what is really just inexplicable
Speaker 1: hatred and and like a lack of fox given about
Speaker 1: huge chunks of the population. Um, yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's it's I'm not saying it's rational in any way,
Speaker 1: but but for you know, people who already perhaps have
Speaker 1: some held prejudices, who are looking for an explanation to
Speaker 1: something that is like the commonly held truth of like, uh,
Speaker 1: there are things going on in the government that we
Speaker 1: have made not made aware of, very intention annoyed. But
Speaker 1: then it's just like, well, what's a what's a funked
Speaker 1: up reason I could make up for why that may be? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So Behold a Pale Horse would probably see its most
Speaker 1: lingering impact on the hip hop scene. Um, there's still
Speaker 1: actually a modestly popular artist named William Cooper who goes
Speaker 1: by that name today. Um. But Bill's personal popularity as
Speaker 1: a showman would only grow narrower in the years following
Speaker 1: his books publication. The Hour of the Time, his radio
Speaker 1: show earned a sizeable audience for what it was propaganda
Speaker 1: for the nation's growing militia movement, and The Hour of
Speaker 1: the Time did not, although now it is. It is
Speaker 1: a little more. You can find in like a lot
Speaker 1: of fringe SoundCloud rappers and stuff. They'll they'll cut in
Speaker 1: bits of The Hour of the Times, but um, a
Speaker 1: good fringe SoundCloud. I want to play you just a
Speaker 1: segment from one episode. This is the introduction, and this
Speaker 1: is how every single episode of The Hour of the
Speaker 1: Time started. Just you have an idea of kind of
Speaker 1: how Bill show like the emotional tenor it takes right
Speaker 1: from the beginning. Okay, this does sound like sand clock,
Speaker 1: rab and chess. It's so long. Yeah, it's really long.
Speaker 1: Oh I think I saw I heard Santa Claus. I
Speaker 1: don't like it. Oh, dog the dog, up the dog.
Speaker 1: What you have just heard listeners all over the world
Speaker 1: is warning, and you will hear this warning from here
Speaker 1: on out. You've been listening to your leaders tell you
Speaker 1: that there's a great move towards democracy in the world.
Speaker 1: You witnessed the parting of the Iron Curtain, the fall
Speaker 1: of the Balloon Wall, the fracturing of the Soviet Union,
Speaker 1: and this is all supposedly toward a new worldwide democracy.
Speaker 1: Democracy is a code word for socialism, and that's why
Speaker 1: our forefathers established a republic. Okay, so you can I
Speaker 1: just love imagining flipping on that set on the radio
Speaker 1: by accident, just like barking dogs and like trumpict. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you also hear like Bill's delivery. He's he's figured
Speaker 1: out how to be a radio host in this time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's definitely improved. Yeah, his cadence is really good. He
Speaker 1: knows how to like it's he knew how to He
Speaker 1: knew how to put together a radio show. He would
Speaker 1: also put in like he would broadcast like entire songs
Speaker 1: that were like kind of popular songs that fit in
Speaker 1: with the theme of like what he was saying that episode,
Speaker 1: Like he would have like musical interludes and ship. He
Speaker 1: was a good broadcaster, um and he like yeah he was.
Speaker 1: He was able to um draw in a lot of listeners,
Speaker 1: maybe even for a lot of folks who wouldn't have
Speaker 1: listened to most other people in kind of like the
Speaker 1: crazy militia person radio sphere. Um. And as a result,
Speaker 1: his work still resonates today, but unfortunately not with a
Speaker 1: group of people. Bill would have been happy to resonate
Speaker 1: with um. If you look up on where that that
Speaker 1: SoundCloud link I sent you. Um, it's hosted by someone
Speaker 1: named conscious Sounds. Uh. They have twenty followers. And look
Speaker 1: at that photoshop logo that they designed for Bill's show
Speaker 1: that wasn't his. No notice the Israeli flag sandwiched right
Speaker 1: in between George W. Bush and Osama bin Laden and
Speaker 1: then the watermark Iron Volke, iron Reich printed at the
Speaker 1: bottom of the mh okay I did it's not it's not.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, these guys they're learning there's Nazis who are
Speaker 1: trying to be a little bit subtle about it. And
Speaker 1: I think they see they kind of recognize Bill Cooper
Speaker 1: is a good way to get people kind of on
Speaker 1: board with once you once you're listening to Bill Cooper,
Speaker 1: you can be convinced that like, actually he was wrong
Speaker 1: when he said it wasn't the Jews, Like because you
Speaker 1: already believe all this stuff, you just replace them with Illuminati.
Speaker 1: We just got to switch the Jews back in there,
Speaker 1: and then you're good to go. Um, yeah, fucking dark.
Speaker 1: It's weird because yeah, Bill again was absolutely whatever else
Speaker 1: you can say about him, and again it's mostly negative.
Speaker 1: He wasn't a Nazi, although he did work in the
Speaker 1: company of Nazis the hour of the time. Has that
Speaker 1: improved the situation? Well, he just catered to Nazis and
Speaker 1: worked with them free. He didn't he I don't think
Speaker 1: he catered to them. We'll listen to something in a bit.
Speaker 1: You may change your mind about that. He's more complicated
Speaker 1: than that. But he He was broadcast by the shortwave
Speaker 1: radio station w w c R UM and by the
Speaker 1: time Bill got into his groove, his his competition were
Speaker 1: guys and what's called the Patriot Community UM basically early
Speaker 1: preppers UM, including two guys named Chuck Harder and Tom
Speaker 1: Valentine UM and and Bill didn't get along with either
Speaker 1: UM for a number of reasons. One of them is
Speaker 1: that Valentine had a better primetime slot than his He
Speaker 1: was nine to eleven PM. Uh yeah. But also valentine
Speaker 1: show was sponsored by The Spotlight, which was Willis Carto's
Speaker 1: Liberty Lobbies Holocaust denial newsletter. We talked about that in
Speaker 1: the War on everyone some yeah. UM. Other competition included
Speaker 1: like celebrity host guys like William Pearce did radio stuff
Speaker 1: in this time, UM, you know, g Gordon Liddy and
Speaker 1: stuff like would be on the same network. So Bill
Speaker 1: is kind of in and among a bunch of like
Speaker 1: really bad dudes right like his his the other people
Speaker 1: who are kind of on the radio in and around
Speaker 1: him are like very violent and often have ties to Nazis. Um.
Speaker 1: Like fucking William Pierce is a guest on some of
Speaker 1: the shows that are that are hosted in and around
Speaker 1: Bill show. Bill himself was probably the most palatable individual
Speaker 1: personality in the patriot movement at this stage, because he
Speaker 1: was like he was kind of the first person in
Speaker 1: this movement. Like everyone's talking about the boogleoo movement and
Speaker 1: whether or not it's racist, and like a lot of
Speaker 1: these guys focus on like no, we're you know, we're
Speaker 1: pro gun and we're we're libertarians, but we're like anti
Speaker 1: racist and stuff. Bill was the first guy in right
Speaker 1: wing media to thread that needle. Um. He was really
Speaker 1: the first one to do it in like a practical way, um.
Speaker 1: And this helped broaden the appeal of the early malicious
Speaker 1: scene and the patriot movement whatever you wanna call it,
Speaker 1: by drawing in these more libertarian Americans who wouldn't have
Speaker 1: listened to a show that was putting fucking William Pierce
Speaker 1: on but would listen to Bill Cooper, Well, it's it
Speaker 1: sounds like the fucking YouTube algorithm, where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's something that is like, you know, a little like
Speaker 1: it's some stuff, you know, and then some radical ideas
Speaker 1: being snuck in and Okay, this is a familiar this
Speaker 1: is a familiar model, I guess. Yeah. And and Bill
Speaker 1: himself did go to like when I say that he
Speaker 1: wasn't a Nazi, I don't think I'm giving him too
Speaker 1: much credit here. And for an example of like why
Speaker 1: I think that, I want to play a segment from
Speaker 1: one of Bill's relatively few shows that touched on race
Speaker 1: to a significant extent. And this was the episode that
Speaker 1: he put out in the immediate wake of the LA
Speaker 1: riots um which were of course sparked by the acquittal
Speaker 1: of the cops who beat the ship out of Rodney King. Right,
Speaker 1: that happens, and you get the l A Riots. And
Speaker 1: here's Bill Cooper's part of Bill Cooper's response to the
Speaker 1: LA Riots. The entire nations in the world had been
Speaker 1: viewing an amateur videotape that had been taken on the scene,
Speaker 1: which showed over fifty blows. I believe the correct number
Speaker 1: was fifty six blows in eighty seconds to a man
Speaker 1: who was lying on the ground, who had no weapon,
Speaker 1: who posed no threat, who did not attack anyone during
Speaker 1: this term. But nevertheless, fifties six blows from clubs what
Speaker 1: the office is called the turns. That's a polite name
Speaker 1: for a club a stick. Can I believe no one
Speaker 1: believed if those officers would be firm innocent? Okay, that
Speaker 1: is that is not what I would have expected from him, right, No,
Speaker 1: that's that's a pretty reasonable thing to say about the
Speaker 1: Rodney King beatings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's basically the only way,
Speaker 1: like an honest person could could, which Bill was not.
Speaker 1: But he you can't really fault what he's saying there. Um,
Speaker 1: And he went on like he went on to complain
Speaker 1: about the looting and rioting by people in Los Angeles
Speaker 1: and say that, like, you know, it was they were
Speaker 1: making a really dumb call by like destroying their own neighborhoods.
Speaker 1: But he's catering to boomers, of course. Yeah. He reserved
Speaker 1: the bulk of his anger for white Americans, as embodied
Speaker 1: by his listeners telling them a quote, when you sit
Speaker 1: in front of your television on Friday and Saturday night
Speaker 1: and watch cops, Top Cops, Lady cops, Cops, swat cops,
Speaker 1: detective cops, Grandma cops. You watch them break down doors
Speaker 1: without identifying themselves, without a search warrant, without a court order,
Speaker 1: rip people's mattresses apart, throw up away their clothes. If
Speaker 1: they don't find anything, all they have to do is
Speaker 1: drop a little bag of white powder. You sit there
Speaker 1: cheering them on. Get those scummies so and so's, And
Speaker 1: the reason you do it is because you're watching. It
Speaker 1: happened to blacks, to minorities, poor white trash, Puerto Ricans,
Speaker 1: everyone who was a threat to you. So like Bill
Speaker 1: wasn't the always He wasn't always the guy you expected
Speaker 1: him to be, right. That was one of the things
Speaker 1: that makes him interesting is like he would there would
Speaker 1: be these moments where you'd like, be okay, Bill is
Speaker 1: going to have like a real fucked up take, and
Speaker 1: be like, no, he was kind of He was more
Speaker 1: or less right about that. This one, Bill pretty firdly
Speaker 1: comes down on the right side of history. Now. He
Speaker 1: also went on to complain that the judge who acquitted
Speaker 1: those LAPD cops was a Mason and like like the thread, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you started strong. Yeah, but you can see you
Speaker 1: can see a lot of the same kind of discourse
Speaker 1: and the same the same style that like the same
Speaker 1: kind of ideological statements that are being made by like
Speaker 1: the boogaloo folks today, right like, um, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: Bill sounds a lot like a lot of the fucking
Speaker 1: guys that was watching on Facebook and the immediate wake
Speaker 1: of the George Floyd protests, he would have been well
Speaker 1: at home in that organization or in that not organization,
Speaker 1: but in that that community. Um. Now, in his role
Speaker 1: as the voice of America's new militia movement, Bill saw
Speaker 1: his main duty as warning good conservative Americans that the
Speaker 1: government and the form of socialist politicians was coming to
Speaker 1: disarm them as a prelude to tyranny and mass to population.
Speaker 1: Bill Show popularized the conspiracy theory that the US government
Speaker 1: stages mass shootings in order to drum up support for
Speaker 1: gun control. And this was before the Columbine shooting. Bill
Speaker 1: starts this conspiracy theory off in the United States, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna the next thing I went have you play
Speaker 1: is Bill reading a passage of his book on the air.
Speaker 1: In n So again, this is what seven years before
Speaker 1: Columbying and like twenty something years before the Sandy Hook shootings.
Speaker 1: In that conspiracy starts here, here's Bill laying the groundwork
Speaker 1: for all of that ship. The government encouraged the manufacture
Speaker 1: and importation of military firearms for the criminals to use.
Speaker 1: This is intended to foster a feeling of insecurity which
Speaker 1: would lead the American people to voluntarily disarmed themselves by
Speaker 1: passing laws against firearms, using drugs and hypnosis on mental
Speaker 1: patients in a process called O'Ryan, the CIA and cultated
Speaker 1: the desire in these people to open fire on schoolyards
Speaker 1: and thus inflame the anti gun lobby. This plan is
Speaker 1: well under way and so far is working perfectly. The
Speaker 1: middle class is begging the government to do away with
Speaker 1: the Second Amendment. So Bill starts that mass shootings are
Speaker 1: a government conspiracy, conspiracy theory and fucking ninety one. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you make of that? That's amazing? That is
Speaker 1: I know, I'm just like I'm trying to build really
Speaker 1: ahead of it's his time. Um, and he knew what
Speaker 1: would take off because obviously this conspiracy theory takes off,
Speaker 1: and if you look at the YouTube video. It was
Speaker 1: like a YouTube video of people being like see Bill
Speaker 1: Cooper revealed the government's planned to stage mass shootings. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it couldn't have been a lucky guess because file cabinet. Yeah. Interesting, Okay,
Speaker 1: So Bill had a real gift for weaving far fetched
Speaker 1: fantasies about the Illuminati and mind control weapons and with
Speaker 1: down to work, earth like folksy rants about modernity. Like
Speaker 1: that was his gift. As he would take this crazy
Speaker 1: shit and he would weave it into real shit. And
Speaker 1: it would it would it would that that draws people in.
Speaker 1: Like he didn't. He didn't, He didn't sound the same
Speaker 1: way it again, that guy with like a box full
Speaker 1: of like photographed z or mimiographed zeems at a gun
Speaker 1: show seems like right like it there there's like a
Speaker 1: grounded nous to it that you don't usually get. I
Speaker 1: do kind of wonder, I mean, because you were saying
Speaker 1: like he just like spoke NonStop for years, like I
Speaker 1: mean for everything like this. That feels kind of like
Speaker 1: a wow. Maybe he you know, this was a pretty
Speaker 1: like you know, valid comment. How many hundreds of bullshit
Speaker 1: that makes no sense? Um to counter that? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean Bill was was every day of his life was bullshit.
Speaker 1: That was that happened. And then I mean, if if
Speaker 1: you talk that much bullshit, you're bound to hit on
Speaker 1: something useful every once in a while. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's and it's not like, well, I mean it's not
Speaker 1: something that's true because obviously mass shootings are a product
Speaker 1: of a wide variety of unhealthy things in our culture.
Speaker 1: And I don't think any reasonable person thinks the government
Speaker 1: is even competent enough to fake that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: But just hitting on the idea that it would be
Speaker 1: an appealing idea, Well that that's what he understands, is
Speaker 1: like what what people want to believe? And he what
Speaker 1: people need is like, here's this real problem mass shootings.
Speaker 1: We need to explain you know, the soaring violent crime
Speaker 1: rate in the early nineties. I need to explain it
Speaker 1: with something that blames it on but like makes it
Speaker 1: a part of this conspiracy. Like that was Bill's talent
Speaker 1: is weaving that ship together, um, and he would do
Speaker 1: it by like yeah, Um. One of I think the
Speaker 1: most revealing rants that he put together that sort of
Speaker 1: shows you his appeal was was him sort of complaining
Speaker 1: about automobiles. He stated, I've gone from driving automobiles that
Speaker 1: I could take apart and put together blindfolded by myself
Speaker 1: as a teenager, to cars that I can lift the
Speaker 1: hood on and not even recognize most of what I'm
Speaker 1: looking at, except that I know it's an engine in there,
Speaker 1: some kind of system that ignites the fuel. And this
Speaker 1: was like Bill was basically taking with this sort of thing,
Speaker 1: these kind of feelings of inadequacy that we're very common
Speaker 1: and increasingly common. And this chunk of American men who's
Speaker 1: like jobs, good factory jobs, one that had been eliminated,
Speaker 1: these guys where a lot of them lived in like
Speaker 1: rural communities that were very rapidly dying as the country
Speaker 1: increasingly urbanized. Um, so he would take these feelings of
Speaker 1: like being bowled over by the complexity of modern technology
Speaker 1: and feeling left behind, so would weave them into this
Speaker 1: conspiracy about the new world order. As his biographer notes,
Speaker 1: Bill basically argued that stuff like, you know, the increasing
Speaker 1: complexity of automobile engines wasn't just a factor of developing technology.
Speaker 1: It was quote one more way the controllers separated you
Speaker 1: from the utility of your person. This was how silent
Speaker 1: weapons work. How they stuck the dunce cap of helplessness
Speaker 1: on your head. And a big part of Bill's appeal
Speaker 1: was that he provided his listeners with a way to
Speaker 1: feel as if they were part of the solution, actually
Speaker 1: fighting back against this new world order, rather than just
Speaker 1: sitting helplessly and watching it eat everything. Uh. He created
Speaker 1: the Citizens Agency for Joint Intelligence or CADGY, which Bill
Speaker 1: marketed as a sort of volunteer civilian answer to the
Speaker 1: CIA or the FBI. Yeah, citizen Joint intelligence. Citizen Agency
Speaker 1: for Joint Intelligence. Yeah, I mean I both made the same.
Speaker 1: Any of his listeners could join CADGY and start collecting
Speaker 1: and submitting intelligence would which Bill would read on air
Speaker 1: if he liked it. And so this had a couple
Speaker 1: of benefits. Never one let his listeners feel like they
Speaker 1: were part of this like insurgent movement fighting back against
Speaker 1: the new world order, and it filled up airtime because
Speaker 1: Bill could just read bullshit that his audience sent in
Speaker 1: as if it was intelligence that his agency had brought
Speaker 1: another like twenty four hour news cycle, A little head
Speaker 1: of the curve there. It's very smart, very smart, And
Speaker 1: CAGY wasn't just like an institute off on its own.
Speaker 1: It was the intelligence wing of the Second Continental Army,
Speaker 1: which Bill claimed was a secret nationwide militia dedicated to
Speaker 1: the preservation of the values that the US had been
Speaker 1: founded under. Bill refused to give up the name of
Speaker 1: the commanding general of this August Force because it was him,
Speaker 1: but many of the promotion papers that he handed out
Speaker 1: were signed by George Washington. Yeah, it was always like,
Speaker 1: really k g about who was in charge. It was
Speaker 1: obvious was built. Yeah, because it was him. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: it was him, he was the whole army. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: then he's like, but who knows. It's hard to say. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: over his years on the air, Cooper engaged in a
Speaker 1: number of objectively ridiculous stunts, like all right wing ideal logus.
Speaker 1: Bill Nurson abiding hate for the mainstream media, but he
Speaker 1: tried to do something about it, organizing his listeners in
Speaker 1: a scheme to buy up millions of shares of Ghanet Media,
Speaker 1: owner of USA Today. And the plan was that all
Speaker 1: of his listeners would buy enough of Ghanette Media to
Speaker 1: have a controlling voting interest um and then they would
Speaker 1: basically put Bill in charge, and he would fire everyone
Speaker 1: who didn't want to put out right wing propaganda. It
Speaker 1: didn't it didn't work. No, but christ yeah, you know what,
Speaker 1: will buy up all of the shares of Ghanett Media
Speaker 1: to put out right wing propaganda the products and services
Speaker 1: that support this podcast. Oh I hope, so yeah, and
Speaker 1: we're back um okay so uh. In nineteen four, Bill
Speaker 1: threw his support behind the newly formed Constitution Party, which
Speaker 1: had been made by some Hollywood libertarian dude. I think
Speaker 1: it was part of a grift, but anyway, U. Bill
Speaker 1: announced his like new membership and support of this movement,
Speaker 1: essentially acting as it's like the voice of the Constitution
Speaker 1: Party by announcing America is no longer a two party country,
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. Um. Problems obviously cropped up almost immediately.
Speaker 1: The chief issue was that Bill and the party he
Speaker 1: joined were pretty much straight up libertarians. Meanwhile, many of
Speaker 1: his listeners were hard right religious nutfox uh. They hated
Speaker 1: two major planks of the Constitution Party, which were and again, Jamie,
Speaker 1: this is another place where you'll be surprised legal legal
Speaker 1: abortion and the right to be homosexual. Um. And in
Speaker 1: another surprising turn, Bill took to the airwaves to defend
Speaker 1: both planks on the matter of abortion. He said, we
Speaker 1: are firm ladies and gentlemen. God put us here to
Speaker 1: make choices, and the moral choices the woman's. And if
Speaker 1: she fries in what some of you would call hell
Speaker 1: for eternity, that is her choice. For it is she
Speaker 1: who will fry. But it's not. But it is not
Speaker 1: the business of the state to say yes, no, maybe,
Speaker 1: or anything. But it's a woman's choice. Like he's he's
Speaker 1: he's whatever, Okay, I mean him being like, you know what,
Speaker 1: let the lady burn in hell if she wants to.
Speaker 1: I don't guess saying that. I think he's saying that,
Speaker 1: like if you think she's going to hell, it doesn't matter,
Speaker 1: Like it's still not the states, but it's not the
Speaker 1: state's business to say if she does it or not. Right.
Speaker 1: I actually don't think Bill cared at all about abortion, clearly,
Speaker 1: I mean clearly not there I can't. I mean, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, personally, you know, we don't we don't claim
Speaker 1: this man, but I guess it's nice to not have
Speaker 1: him actively against reproductive rights. That's yeah, it's with this guy.
Speaker 1: It says a lot that that, like he has to
Speaker 1: yell at his listeners over ship like this because like
Speaker 1: they're all such bigots, um, and Bill is just not
Speaker 1: quite as bad Um, and actually like his defensive bigotry
Speaker 1: a little more focused in yeah, yeah, I mean he
Speaker 1: just hates the government. That's really Bill's whole thing is
Speaker 1: he hates the government and wants wants to destroy it
Speaker 1: because he thinks it's an evil quasi Satanist conspiracy. Um,
Speaker 1: it's weird. He's a weird guy. Like his defensive homosexual
Speaker 1: homosexuality was actually like pretty good, um telling. He told
Speaker 1: his very religious listeners quote, the most you can never
Speaker 1: hope to do is force them back into the closets
Speaker 1: so that you cannot see them, and then you will
Speaker 1: be living a lie, just as we have been living
Speaker 1: lies throughout our history. And lies must stop. Which is
Speaker 1: interesting because he's also he's he's still putting the like
Speaker 1: it's your you who will be living a lie by
Speaker 1: denying these people exist, and like that's why you shouldn't
Speaker 1: do it. It's a weird defense of not criminalizing gay people.
Speaker 1: Um builds a weird guy. There's a lot of like
Speaker 1: moments like that with him, where it's like what the
Speaker 1: funk are you? Yeah, and I don't want to be
Speaker 1: washing him here because these are like, these areas where
Speaker 1: he's surprisingly decent um kind of just have been used
Speaker 1: sometimes by folks to obscure the fact that he was
Speaker 1: fundamentally a man who believed that anything that vaguely smacked
Speaker 1: of socialism was tyranny and had to be violently opposed
Speaker 1: by men with guns. Um. And so while he would
Speaker 1: be doing stuff like saying, hey, it's fine if you're gay,
Speaker 1: he would also be saying, you should have as many
Speaker 1: guns as possible so that you can kill people who
Speaker 1: try to, I don't know, give healthcare to folks. Like
Speaker 1: what Yeah, okay, I I mean I still hate the man,
Speaker 1: but you should. But but there are some there are
Speaker 1: some twists here there. Yeah, it is, I mean, do
Speaker 1: you think it is just like it has to do
Speaker 1: with like he wants to keep the focus on what
Speaker 1: he really cares about, and it's like, you know kind
Speaker 1: of like okay, like I get that this is something
Speaker 1: that bothers you, but like, don't worry about that, ye
Speaker 1: worry about like look over here, this is my show,
Speaker 1: and we're worrying about the things that I hate. God,
Speaker 1: you have a radio show. You can hate your own ship.
Speaker 1: There's a there's a shitty radio show for that other
Speaker 1: hateful thing, you think on the same network. Like you
Speaker 1: don't have to wait long. Oh yeah, you don't like it,
Speaker 1: wait forty five minutes. Yeah. Bill's show hosted an eighteen
Speaker 1: hour long series called Treason, making the case that US
Speaker 1: government officials were committing a daily barrage of unconstitutional acts
Speaker 1: that demanded some sort of response. Um. He also told
Speaker 1: his listeners to watch two thousand one of Space Odyssey
Speaker 1: because it included secret messages hidden by the illuminati. Um yeah, um.
Speaker 1: And this is like this is the thing you're here
Speaker 1: in Q and on stuff. Now, there's this like widespread
Speaker 1: belief that like the Cabal, this like elite group of
Speaker 1: Satanic demon worshippers hide like the secrets of their Like
Speaker 1: there's all these weird Hollywood movies that are real, Like
Speaker 1: the Bourne Identity is like there's act like there's real,
Speaker 1: Like it is like fundamentally real. It's just yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because the the elite have to hide the truth about
Speaker 1: what they're doing in plain sight. It's this thing that
Speaker 1: they need to do. Um. And Bill thought that it
Speaker 1: was because of like this weird kind of occult tradition
Speaker 1: that where you basically have to in order to like
Speaker 1: provide power to your occult rituals, you have to like
Speaker 1: tell people about the evil things you're doing in the open,
Speaker 1: and so like they would hide all this stuff in Hollywood.
Speaker 1: Like that was an innovation of Bills. That is like
Speaker 1: one of the things that the core of Q went
Speaker 1: on today. And he's the first guy to be like
Speaker 1: and it was Billy with Billy Bailey. He would watch
Speaker 1: a movie he liked and then would be like, and
Speaker 1: here's why, Like this is reveal some truth about the Illuminati.
Speaker 1: Conspiracy is the thing Alex Jones does too. Um yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: it was the Waco siege that really made Bill Cooper,
Speaker 1: the multi week assault by the A t F and
Speaker 1: the FBI on a peaceful religious compound in the middle
Speaker 1: of nowhere. It was exactly the kind of violent overreach
Speaker 1: that he'd spent his career warning people about. It was
Speaker 1: like the perfect thing for Bill Cooper to focus on, right,
Speaker 1: Like he's been saying for years, the government's going to
Speaker 1: come to like kill all Christians and stuff and you know,
Speaker 1: institute this new world order. And here they go after
Speaker 1: this compound of weirdos in the middle of nowhere, Texas.
Speaker 1: Um So, for weeks, Bill would you know, basically tell
Speaker 1: his listeners that Waco was a test case to see
Speaker 1: if Americans would put up with the n w o's
Speaker 1: plans to eliminate millions of people. Um, like they're seeing
Speaker 1: if you're going to rise up. You know, if a
Speaker 1: bunch of militiamen would just show up at Waco and
Speaker 1: like stand around it, they would back off and like
Speaker 1: then you know, we could we could turn the tide.
Speaker 1: But of course nobody was willing to actually do that.
Speaker 1: Um So, for weeks, Bill would cover the federal government's
Speaker 1: treachery and when the real victim like in you know,
Speaker 1: the government, by the way, was committing a ton of
Speaker 1: horrible crimes Waco, Like the whole thing was one horrible
Speaker 1: crime pretty much. Yeah, this is like, you know, attached
Speaker 1: to something where it's like, well, yeah, there is something
Speaker 1: clearly very bad going on here. Um yeah. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: he would also because he was a liar, it wasn't
Speaker 1: enough the actual funded up ship that was going on,
Speaker 1: so he would he would like he invented this claim
Speaker 1: that the FBI had sent in tainted milk that had
Speaker 1: killed two children um, which he would repeat for weeks,
Speaker 1: which is like there had no basis in fact, Um,
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessary because the FBI killed seventies something children
Speaker 1: at Waco, Like you don't have to lie about tainted milk.
Speaker 1: They burnt kids to death, Like it's not it's not
Speaker 1: necessary Bill. Um. He was also adamant that David Koresh
Speaker 1: was monogamous and does not play around on his wife,
Speaker 1: which is what's the point. I think that's like mon
Speaker 1: he had. Koresh had to be a good guy, and
Speaker 1: the people at Waco had to be like fundamentally heroic
Speaker 1: rather than like a bunch of flawed and fucked up
Speaker 1: people themselves who still didn't deserved to be burnt alive. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So obviously Bill was as horrified as the rest of
Speaker 1: the world when the David Koresh that David Koresh was
Speaker 1: not just defending David Koresh but picking to Hill, David
Speaker 1: Koresh was faithful to his wife, Like that's what we
Speaker 1: all know about David. He didn't a ton of random women.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, I mean, especially since we all
Speaker 1: know David Koresh had incredible abs. I mean, just stop
Speaker 1: David Koresh's abs were as cut as Bernard Sanders was
Speaker 1: good at shooting people in a moving vehicle. Cut my
Speaker 1: own beanie baby's arm off. This is so stressful. So
Speaker 1: Bill was as horrified as the rest of the nation
Speaker 1: when the FBI's final raid on the Branch Davidian compound
Speaker 1: ended in you know, dozens of children burning to death.
Speaker 1: Um in just horrible, horrible, literal war crime. Um. Yeah.
Speaker 1: On his first broadcast back after the siege, Bill opened
Speaker 1: the show by declaring, America the Beautiful is no more.
Speaker 1: He told his listeners that the second battle of the
Speaker 1: Second American Revolution had ended, and folks, we lost. The
Speaker 1: first battle was Ruby Ridge, So I mean, you know
Speaker 1: it it that was you know, Waco was. One of
Speaker 1: the things that's interesting about Waco is that for a
Speaker 1: lot of people who had been kind of reflexively pro
Speaker 1: America and pro the government just because it was America
Speaker 1: and they were kind of like patriotic bumble fox, um,
Speaker 1: Waco was the thing broke a lot of them. Um.
Speaker 1: And there's it's like like it's kind of the foundational
Speaker 1: movement of the patriot movement in the militia movement that
Speaker 1: exists with US today. For there's a reason the Boogaloo
Speaker 1: boys put the names of like the Weavers who died
Speaker 1: at Ruby Ridge um and share Waco meetings so much.
Speaker 1: It's because, like this is where that starts. This is
Speaker 1: where like the insurge right in this country really starts
Speaker 1: to grow. And Bill Cooper is the one nursing it.
Speaker 1: Like the violent right had not been a big thing
Speaker 1: since the end of World War two that had really
Speaker 1: put an into it. Pretty much like you've had the
Speaker 1: KKK in some parts of the South during the Civil
Speaker 1: Rights movement, but like not an insurgent force aimed at
Speaker 1: overthrowing the government. That that starts now, and Bill Cooper
Speaker 1: is its first profit right um, Like he's directly saying,
Speaker 1: like you the listeners are like part of a war
Speaker 1: against your government now because of Waco. Oh yeah, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I mean and and it's unfortunately, like you can see
Speaker 1: what he's like creating these pins for people that you
Speaker 1: can understand why people are taking the opportunity. I mean,
Speaker 1: whether if you believe Bill Cooper, the only thing to
Speaker 1: do is kill people in the government, is murder members
Speaker 1: of the government. And by the way, his most famous
Speaker 1: listener decides to do just that. Becau is. Bill's biggest
Speaker 1: fan in this period of time was a young military
Speaker 1: veteran named Tim McVeigh. Yeah, yeah, Timmy McVeigh. Baby, yeah uh,
Speaker 1: Tim McVeigh. Always a pleasure when we get to you, Timmy.
Speaker 1: So Tim loved Tim loved the hour of the time,
Speaker 1: and then the months prior to the Oklahoma City bombing,
Speaker 1: there's even evidence that he visited Bill Cooper's, the place
Speaker 1: where Bill Cooper recorded, and like met with Bill Cooper
Speaker 1: um and like this almost certainly happened. It's it's pretty
Speaker 1: widely believed, and the most credible version of the story
Speaker 1: suggests that basically Bill was kind of sketched out. It
Speaker 1: was like Tim and some other guy and they were
Speaker 1: like clearly weird and unhinged. And Tim asked him, like,
Speaker 1: if I get stopped by a cop, should I shoot
Speaker 1: him rather than accept a speeding ticket? And Bill was like, no,
Speaker 1: you shouldn't shoot a man over a speeding ticket. But like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's this really sketchy story where like there are a
Speaker 1: couple of people who were around Bill at the time.
Speaker 1: While we're like, yeah, this guy who after the Oklahoma
Speaker 1: City bombing, we all recognized as Tim McVeigh came by
Speaker 1: and was like, I'm your biggest fan, Bill and asked
Speaker 1: him weird questions about shooting cops. Um. And it's worth
Speaker 1: noting that the reason Tim got caught is that he
Speaker 1: got pulled over driving away from Oklahoma City and he
Speaker 1: had a gun on him and chose not to shoot
Speaker 1: the officer who was pulling him over, which is why
Speaker 1: he got caught. So wow, So listening to Bill is
Speaker 1: what got him caught. It's saved one guy's life and
Speaker 1: got like a hundred and sixty eight other people killed. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we talked a lot about Tim McVay
Speaker 1: in the War on Everyone. There was a shipload going
Speaker 1: on in Tim mcveah's ideological development, including a lot of
Speaker 1: Nazis ship. I think people do tend to put too
Speaker 1: much of the blame on Bill, but in the immediate
Speaker 1: wake of the bombing, Bill actually does get a lot
Speaker 1: of the blame just because he It kind of immediately
Speaker 1: comes out that Tim mcveigh's favorite radio host is this
Speaker 1: like right wing nut job Bill Cooper. Like I think
Speaker 1: the President mentions Bill Cooper and stuff, so like Bill
Speaker 1: becomes Bill gets a lot of the immediate blame for
Speaker 1: radicalizing Tim McVey when really things like the Turner Diaries
Speaker 1: that like, there's a lot of other things, I mean,
Speaker 1: for people who are inclined to agree with Tim McVey.
Speaker 1: A lot of free press. Yeah, yeah, it is. It
Speaker 1: is a lot of free press. And it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: an interesting tale. Um. So when McVeigh, you know, did
Speaker 1: that thing that McVeigh did, Bill Cooper immediately knew what
Speaker 1: was really going on. This was not you know, a
Speaker 1: right wing militia dude carrying Bill's ideas to their logical
Speaker 1: extent and declaring war on the government, which is what
Speaker 1: actually happened. Uh, this was a false flag attack aimed
Speaker 1: at taking down the militia movement and justifying a government crackdown. Um,
Speaker 1: which is actually kind of the obvious opposite of what
Speaker 1: happened really, but yeah, um so Bill had one of
Speaker 1: his cadgy agents start collecting stories for a book on
Speaker 1: the first twenty four hours after the blast to document
Speaker 1: how the media spun events to fit their narrative, and
Speaker 1: they actually like published up like put together like this
Speaker 1: whole gigantic book about the first day after Oklahoma City
Speaker 1: that they thought was going to be like the new
Speaker 1: the next you know, the the rightful follow up to
Speaker 1: Behold a Pale Horse, But nobody bought it because it
Speaker 1: was like boring and dumb. Um. Yeah. Now, Bill grew
Speaker 1: increasingly unhinged in the days and weeks after the Oklahoma
Speaker 1: City bombing. He warned his listeners that the end was nigh. Uh.
Speaker 1: He told them that mock American cities were being built
Speaker 1: in the desert for the military to train in to
Speaker 1: prepare to like purge the United States of dissidents. Uh.
Speaker 1: He'd started talking about black helicopters circling areas with too
Speaker 1: high up population of real Americans, and of course he
Speaker 1: started talking about FEMA camps being set up to incarceerate
Speaker 1: a newly disarmed American populace um. Yeah. And of course
Speaker 1: a big part of it for for Bill is that
Speaker 1: like the government's going to use the whole militia thing
Speaker 1: as an excuse to take our guns. And they did
Speaker 1: pass an assault weapons ban not too long after this,
Speaker 1: So like there's a lot of things keep happening that
Speaker 1: make Bill seem really credible to the fringe. Right, is
Speaker 1: like Bill said, they're going to take our guns, and
Speaker 1: then they passed this law to take our guns, not
Speaker 1: considering that it was part of Bill's work that created
Speaker 1: the problems. Yes, that really helped create the system where
Speaker 1: they were like, oh man, it seems like a lot
Speaker 1: of people have military grade weaponry who are violently unhinged.
Speaker 1: Maybe let's try to do which I'm not a fan
Speaker 1: of the assault weapons ban either, but like you can
Speaker 1: maybe it's not like let's create create a media yeah
Speaker 1: show where Bill were encouraging it. It's a great way
Speaker 1: to get a lot. Yeah. Yeah, he has a big
Speaker 1: impact on why that happens. He's a big impact on
Speaker 1: the growth of the militia feedback loop developing here with
Speaker 1: exactly it's the same thing with like these boogaloo guys
Speaker 1: who are obsessed with like being Second Amendment absolutists and
Speaker 1: or who are going to guarantee massive restriction gun restrictive
Speaker 1: gun control legislation comes in if a Democrat ever gets
Speaker 1: into office again, because you guys have been such like
Speaker 1: like violent lunatics in public, waving guns around and scaring
Speaker 1: people and like yeah, thanks, yeah, yeah, you did a
Speaker 1: great job and create the problem that if there is
Speaker 1: a crackdown, it's like, well that is you know, in
Speaker 1: no small part your fault there. Yeah. So in August
Speaker 1: of mcveigh's old friend Michael Fortier, did an interview with
Speaker 1: a far right newsletter where when asked what led to
Speaker 1: the bombing, he replied, I can't say a whole lot,
Speaker 1: but we heard lots of tapes and saw videos and
Speaker 1: read things. There's this guy with the radio station in Arizona,
Speaker 1: Bill Cooper. He keeps calling people sheeple and was mad
Speaker 1: that they ain't doing anything to change things. Well, we
Speaker 1: got to thinking that's right, things need to change. Tim
Speaker 1: really responded to that um. In nineteen James Nichols testified
Speaker 1: in federal court that he, his brother Terry, and Tim
Speaker 1: McVeigh listened to Cooper as often as they could. They
Speaker 1: called him the voice of the militia movement. So, yeah, Bill,
Speaker 1: Bill helps to cause all of the things that cause
Speaker 1: all of the things that he's scared about. That's right.
Speaker 1: So it's I mean with that kind of like, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: looking at it now, you're like, well, of course he
Speaker 1: may have seemed right about a lot of these things.
Speaker 1: He was anticipating potential consequences to problems that he was
Speaker 1: to create. Yeah, it's like government isn't guilty of the
Speaker 1: stuff like that themselves. I just uh yeah, yeah, It's
Speaker 1: it's like when when I when the the f d
Speaker 1: A eventually raids my compound and burns dozens of children
Speaker 1: to death in our basement, all seem like a profit
Speaker 1: for having predicted it, But really, by constantly engaging in
Speaker 1: this battle with the FDA for years, you know, I'm I'm,
Speaker 1: I'm in a way creating the situation myself, which is
Speaker 1: why should associated with this clip When it inevitably um
Speaker 1: surfaces after after your prediction turns out to have been true,
Speaker 1: you know what you should do, Jamie is by one
Speaker 1: of our new f d A approved to cure all
Speaker 1: diseases masks, which are in fact FDA approved to cure
Speaker 1: all diseases. That's official FDA approval. Um, So by the mask.
Speaker 1: He just did that entire thing to plug his new
Speaker 1: merch Just so you know, this whole episode Bitcoin I am,
Speaker 1: I am digging up metaphorically the corpses of the dead
Speaker 1: at Waco in Oklahoma City and Ruby Ridge in order
Speaker 1: to face masks and spark a fight with the f
Speaker 1: d A. That's that's because I'm a monster too. I'm
Speaker 1: just as bad as Bill Cooper. I'm putting that on
Speaker 1: your Wikipedia page. Thank you, thank you. So um coming
Speaker 1: up in the biggest trial in American history as the
Speaker 1: inspiration behind a mad bomber was not a great move
Speaker 1: for Bill's long term career, especially since he'd stopped paying
Speaker 1: taxes in nineteen nine two and also light on a
Speaker 1: loan application. UM. So he starts getting warrants issued for
Speaker 1: his arrest for again committing crimes. Um. And he lives
Speaker 1: up on top of a mountain in Arizona at this
Speaker 1: point in time, and the sheriff of Apache County where
Speaker 1: he lived, was actually a pretty smart guy and was like,
Speaker 1: if I try to arrest Bill Cooper, He's going to
Speaker 1: go down in a hail of gunfire and it's going
Speaker 1: to be just a terrible It's gonna be another Ruby
Speaker 1: Ridge and I'm not gonna fucking do that. Like, he
Speaker 1: can live on the top of his mountain for another
Speaker 1: fifty years for all I care. And he tells the
Speaker 1: f eyas the Sheriff's like, I'm not like arrested this
Speaker 1: guy is, and the FBI are like, yeah, it seems
Speaker 1: like a really bad idea to arrest this guy. Anything
Speaker 1: that happens to Bill Cooper, to him is like a
Speaker 1: confirmation that what he was saying was right. He's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'll probably be you know, taken out or arrested. It's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you're evading your taxes. But yeah, yeah, the problem
Speaker 1: you've created. Well, and that's exactly what Bill does with it.
Speaker 1: So like the actual law enforcement in his area just
Speaker 1: kind of leaves him alone. Like he regularly will go
Speaker 1: to a local Mexican restaurant and get enchiladas and ship
Speaker 1: and like nobody tries anything because again, nobody wants the
Speaker 1: bullshit that would come with trying to bring Bill Cooper
Speaker 1: in being so annoying. Yeah, but Bill becomes a massive
Speaker 1: drama queen about the whole thing, breathlessly talking about the
Speaker 1: siege of his compound and like bragging about it, like
Speaker 1: how he and his wife and his his little daughter
Speaker 1: like aren't leaving and you know, won't leave. They don't
Speaker 1: leave for years and are like living under and he'll
Speaker 1: talk about how like they've got anti helicopter countermeasures and
Speaker 1: like secret militiamen guarding his compound with him, and you know,
Speaker 1: he'll vaguely discussed all his security men shars and ship
Speaker 1: which was all bullshit. He had one friend who was
Speaker 1: like a vet who would like hang out with a
Speaker 1: gun with him sometimes when he got scared, and he
Speaker 1: had like some cans strung up like he had no
Speaker 1: there was no like security network set up like he
Speaker 1: was canned. His security was I maybe I may be
Speaker 1: making that one up, but it was he didn't have
Speaker 1: any sort of meaningful security network because he was broke
Speaker 1: and living in a crumbling house on top of a
Speaker 1: mountain because he he had no money. Um. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's we don't know a lot. We don't
Speaker 1: know a huge amount about his situation with his wife,
Speaker 1: but at least one of his friends catches him having
Speaker 1: like this really vicious, screaming fight with her where he's
Speaker 1: like at least mentally abusive, and you get the feeling
Speaker 1: he was probably physically abusive to her, and we're taking
Speaker 1: his past history accounts almost certainly. At the same time,
Speaker 1: it becomes really clear to anyone listening that like, really
Speaker 1: the only thing keeping Bill kind of tethered to reality
Speaker 1: is his daughter. Um, and he'll have she's a little
Speaker 1: kid at this point, he'll have her on the show.
Speaker 1: A bunch. She hosts it with him sometimes and he's
Speaker 1: like really, um, yeah, like it's it's it's kind of heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: I don't want to go into too much just because
Speaker 1: it's a real bummer to listen to them together because
Speaker 1: eventually Bill's abusiveness forces his wife to leave him, and
Speaker 1: she like flees with their daughter and he never sees
Speaker 1: her again. Um, because of what happens next. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and that, like yeah, that's that. Like again, she did
Speaker 1: absolutely the right thing because Bill at this point is
Speaker 1: a hardcore alcoholic. He's continued to be mentally and probably
Speaker 1: physically abusive. He's locked them away in a mountaintop compound
Speaker 1: hiding from the fucking Feds, directly tied to the Oklahoma
Speaker 1: City BOS, directly tied to the Oklahoma City bombing. Like
Speaker 1: Annie makes the right call in getting their kid the
Speaker 1: funk out of there eventually, And again Annie deserves some
Speaker 1: pome because she stays for a long time and she's
Speaker 1: a pretty at least for a chunk of his career,
Speaker 1: a very willing participant in the Bill Cooper thing. Um
Speaker 1: also a victim to but also like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's a fucked up story. Everything about this guy's relationships
Speaker 1: are fucked up. Um, thankfully she doesn't get the I
Speaker 1: and I don't know anything about his daughter today. Um,
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to look it up because she
Speaker 1: deserves to have some chance to get away from Yeah.
Speaker 1: Bill's last remaining years were spent putting out a series
Speaker 1: of increasingly morose broadcasts and occasionally watching the conspiratorial seeds
Speaker 1: he'd sown bare fruit, like when he watched the nine
Speaker 1: X Files movie and recognized huge chunks of Behold a
Speaker 1: Pale Horse served up his entertainment um, which he found
Speaker 1: very exciting. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. As Bill's life
Speaker 1: shrank to the confines of his increasingly decrepit home, he
Speaker 1: himself sunk into alcoholism. But many of the ideas he
Speaker 1: popularized we're working their way into popular culture. They just
Speaker 1: grown beyond him at this point. On June two thousand one,
Speaker 1: Bill Cooper made what would be his greatest prediction yet.
Speaker 1: He told his listeners that a major attack on the
Speaker 1: United States was coming, and then it would be blamed
Speaker 1: on Osama Bin Laden. Really yep, yep. June one, names
Speaker 1: been Laden in the broadcast. Now, again, not much of
Speaker 1: a prediction, because Bin Laden had bombed the World Trade
Speaker 1: Center a couple of years earlier and was one of
Speaker 1: the most famous terrorists in the world at the time. Wait,
Speaker 1: hold on, wait what year is this? This is two?
Speaker 1: This is but like before right before nine eleven, but
Speaker 1: after the first World Trade Center bombing, like Ben Latton
Speaker 1: bombed it before, right, Yeah, So it's so that isn't okay, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: you're right here. So he gives this prediction and then
Speaker 1: in the immediate wake of the attack, like he's obviously
Speaker 1: really horrified, but he also kind of he's the very
Speaker 1: first truther, Like he's one of the very first guys
Speaker 1: who starts talking about like how the thing, the building
Speaker 1: shouldn't have fallen the way it did, and like Steele
Speaker 1: doesn't work that way. All the all this stuff that
Speaker 1: like with like like a jet fueld doesn't melt. In fact,
Speaker 1: a lot of folks will argue that loose change that documentary,
Speaker 1: a huge amount of it was plagiarized from stuff Bill
Speaker 1: Cooper had started saying in the immediate wake of nine
Speaker 1: eleven because because he dies like two seconds after he
Speaker 1: dies two seconds after nine eleven, but he but that's
Speaker 1: the way Bill's mind works, he's immediately spinning conspiracies. He
Speaker 1: can't not do it, So he leaves the world with
Speaker 1: nine eleven Trutherism. Um, and he leaves the world with
Speaker 1: Alex Jones, who Jones in his early career talked about
Speaker 1: Bill Cooper a lot, clearly admired him, deeply had Bill
Speaker 1: on as a guest once. Um, and Bill fucking hated
Speaker 1: Alex Jones and ranted about him a couple of times
Speaker 1: on his own show and basically saw him as a
Speaker 1: charlatan and everything that was wrong with America. I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: which is ironic because like a lot of like Alex
Speaker 1: Jones made a bunch of money in his earlier selling
Speaker 1: like Golden Ship two People over the Radio, and Bill
Speaker 1: Cooper was the first guy to do that, or not
Speaker 1: the first gay, but like the first conspiracy not to
Speaker 1: do that. Um, so yeah, that's cool. Uh, that's that's
Speaker 1: that's neat. Yeah. So Bill, you know it starts nine
Speaker 1: eleven Trutherism as kind of a last hurrah. And in
Speaker 1: July of two thousand one, so less than a month
Speaker 1: after you know, his big prediction, Uh, Bill makes the
Speaker 1: stake mistake of threatening a local doctor named hamblin Um
Speaker 1: and so yeah, like basically Bill lived on top of
Speaker 1: this mountain, and the mountain most of it was like
Speaker 1: public property, Like anyone could come onto Bill's mountain if
Speaker 1: they wanted. But Bill thought it was his mountain, and
Speaker 1: people who drove up onto it perfectly within their rights
Speaker 1: to do so. Um, we're like damaging his security measures. Um.
Speaker 1: So he would regularly come out with a handgun and
Speaker 1: threaten to murder people for driving onto public land. Um.
Speaker 1: And yeah, this got him in trouble. Uh. And in
Speaker 1: in two thousand one, you know, the county had a
Speaker 1: new sheriff. The guy who had been like it's not
Speaker 1: worth it to go after him, um is gone. And
Speaker 1: this new sheriff is like an idiot. He's like a
Speaker 1: rec this dumbass. And it's like we can it's time
Speaker 1: to finally do something about Bill Cooper. It'll be big
Speaker 1: news if we do it, like it'll be good for
Speaker 1: my career. Um. So not all that long after nine eleven, Uh,
Speaker 1: this sheriff launches a raid on Bill Cooper. And like
Speaker 1: the idea is to basically pretend to be you know,
Speaker 1: a motorist who's like wandered up to his mountain. Bill
Speaker 1: comes out and you kind of can surround him and
Speaker 1: arrest him. Um, And it kind of relies on Bill
Speaker 1: not being the most paranoid man alive, which Bill work
Speaker 1: very well. No, Bill immediately realizes that like the cops
Speaker 1: are trying to trap him, um, and he tries to
Speaker 1: like run him down in his car and Yeah, the
Speaker 1: whole thing degenerates into a gunfight and Bill shoots an
Speaker 1: officer dead before going down himself in a hail of gunfire. Um. Well, ye,
Speaker 1: I feel like if he had to go, I mean
Speaker 1: he I'm not he went down, but I feel like
Speaker 1: he was probably satisfied with Yeah. I think on an
Speaker 1: emotional level, Bill Cooper need too needed to go down
Speaker 1: being murdered by cops and like a dawn like in
Speaker 1: like a raid, like that was the way he expected
Speaker 1: to go for years, And it also validates his own
Speaker 1: like perception of himself. Yeah, and he's he was clearly
Speaker 1: he was sick. He probably wouldn't have lived that much longer. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a shame he killed a random guy on his
Speaker 1: way out, but also it was a cop who was
Speaker 1: fucking with him, So whatever, it's whatever. Kind of a wash,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a wash. It's if you're looking at
Speaker 1: like how most of these guys leave the world, Like
Speaker 1: Alex Jones is going to have a much more depressing
Speaker 1: ending than Bill Cooper. Bill Cooper kind of got what
Speaker 1: he wanted in the end, which is he gonna like
Speaker 1: die of like gout or something. Yeah, I know he's
Speaker 1: going to live to be a hundred and fucking twenty
Speaker 1: and become a Secretary of State. I don't know, Um,
Speaker 1: just like you're just going to live to be the
Speaker 1: grand dumb of conspiracy theories, just rotting in a house. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of bummer. Like the book Pale Horse Writer. Um,
Speaker 1: it's an interesting biography. I think it's pretty good. The
Speaker 1: biographer is very sympathetic to Bill, probably more than his
Speaker 1: ferret points. It's kind of hard not to be, I
Speaker 1: think when you get that into somebody's life. Um, but
Speaker 1: he definitely gives Bill more credit than I think Bill
Speaker 1: deserves in a number of things. Um. But like his
Speaker 1: his last days were sad as ship Like at one
Speaker 1: point one of his daughters tries to reconnect with him
Speaker 1: and like comes to his house and she lasts like
Speaker 1: a week before the like, because he's an abusive prick um,
Speaker 1: and he like scares her away um, like he's he's
Speaker 1: down to, like he's he's barely had alienated all of
Speaker 1: his remaining friends at that point. He was just like
Speaker 1: this lonely, crazy old man with a bunch of guns
Speaker 1: at the top of a hill, threatening passers by with
Speaker 1: a pistol whenever they drove too close to his house.
Speaker 1: Like those That was the last days of William Cooper.
Speaker 1: Well again, I mean I will while I do think that,
Speaker 1: you know, the the inks to like his life as
Speaker 1: a military brand, and then the very clear PTSD that
Speaker 1: like dogged him throughout his life are are sympathetic entry points. Um.
Speaker 1: He seemed to have really lived out life full of
Speaker 1: problems he created by himself. Yeah. Bill is a guy
Speaker 1: who's dealt a rough hand of cards and throws the
Speaker 1: cards away and starts pooping in a box and then
Speaker 1: demanding people treat the poop as if it is a
Speaker 1: deck of cards. Um. And when everyone else is like, no, Bill,
Speaker 1: that's that's clearly poop um, he gets angry at the
Speaker 1: entire world and starts a radio show that a good
Speaker 1: and when has that ever gone well for anyone? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So you know don't become a conspiracy icon at the
Speaker 1: cost of your own happiness and loved ones. Uh, and
Speaker 1: instead become a fashion icon and also render yourself commune
Speaker 1: to all diseases with our new f d A approved
Speaker 1: f d A approved to prevent all diseases. Masks. This
Speaker 1: is a really good ad. This was this whole episode
Speaker 1: was an ad, right, yeah, absolutely, yeah, okay, just checking.
Speaker 1: Like Bill Cooper, I have decided to cash in on
Speaker 1: the fact that I'm a fundamentally broken, anti social person
Speaker 1: with a head full of ptsd um and I'm choosing
Speaker 1: to do it with masks. Oh good, Well, I'm glad
Speaker 1: that you could find someone to connect with on this show. Yeah. Boy,
Speaker 1: I also threatened random people with a gun for driving
Speaker 1: onto public land. But that's that's a separate that's a
Speaker 1: kind of more of it, more of a kink than anything,
Speaker 1: to be honest, Right, that's that's your that's your little
Speaker 1: Jackie moment. Yeah yeah, yeah. So So Jamie, how are
Speaker 1: you feeling? What's up? He said, how you're feeling? And
Speaker 1: You're like, I question, you know, not thanks for checking in?
Speaker 1: Uh not good. I don't feel good about it. I
Speaker 1: feel this is this is a this is a more complicated,
Speaker 1: not good than I'm used to um on the on
Speaker 1: the show. But yeah, he's he's a complex man, a complex,
Speaker 1: fundamentally abusive person who's toxicity, uh left him alone on
Speaker 1: a mountaintop. Um yeah yeah, oh boy, Yeah, this was
Speaker 1: a This was a dark one to tell you what.
Speaker 1: It's that great. How do you feel? I feel? I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not at all looking into my own future? Um,
Speaker 1: I have with each passing day, you know, we get worried,
Speaker 1: we worry about you, and we get more worried about you.
Speaker 1: That's actually my full time job. I get closer to
Speaker 1: having that mountaintop compound. Um, you really are edging your
Speaker 1: way up the mountain as time goes. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so that I can get into my last great fight
Speaker 1: with the f d A. Um, cowards go down at
Speaker 1: the hands of the f d A. You know it'll
Speaker 1: be so funny. Oh my god. Yes, what a great
Speaker 1: punchline to As a as a human being, I think
Speaker 1: you owe a responsibility to try to like leave something
Speaker 1: entertaining for the children, and like another person dying in
Speaker 1: an old folks home, no kid's gonna like. But something
Speaker 1: you hear about this this podcast host who started a
Speaker 1: war with the FDA that got seventy kids burnt to
Speaker 1: death in a basement. Like, that's a story, people, you
Speaker 1: really need the kids cut out of this equation. I everybody,
Speaker 1: this is why everyone still loves David Koresh. Look, he
Speaker 1: he got seventy kids killed and now he's the sexy
Speaker 1: guy with abs on a fucking Netflix special. So he
Speaker 1: did have too many abs on the net. It's clearly
Speaker 1: fine to get a lot of kids. Still, I don't
Speaker 1: even think it was Netflix. I think it's just on Netflix.
Speaker 1: Well that's where I watched it. Somebody he didn't have
Speaker 1: too many apps on the show. At the point where did,
Speaker 1: I was also like, whoever says for him to have
Speaker 1: this many apps on the show? Whoever made it? It
Speaker 1: was like was very hot and that guy was very not.
Speaker 1: It was a bold choice to look at it a
Speaker 1: man who fucked fourteen year olds uh and had illegal
Speaker 1: child brides and say, we got to rehab this dude.
Speaker 1: We got rehab this dude to be like, let's make
Speaker 1: him sexy. We gotta we gotta have him playing a
Speaker 1: rock show right before the FBI kills it. And it
Speaker 1: was on Paramount Network. Somebody told me we were wrong
Speaker 1: time when we gave credit to Netflix for that whatever. Terrible,
Speaker 1: what a ridiculous series. It was a mess. I mean,
Speaker 1: the fucking the Uni Bomber series was problematic too, But
Speaker 1: at least they like got a guy who looked like
Speaker 1: a dangerous shut in to play the Uni Bomber, Like
Speaker 1: I didn't have David Koresh like drop a rap album
Speaker 1: right as the FBI comes into his fucking house. He's
Speaker 1: just like playing guitar like just I think the only
Speaker 1: series that I think is worse than Waco in terms
Speaker 1: of like this genre of TV is the The Assassination
Speaker 1: of Gianni Versa. I haven't even watched that. It was ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I thought the O J one was pretty good, was great,
Speaker 1: it was really good. That Giannio one is a fucking mess.
Speaker 1: Darren Cross plays Andrew Knanan. It's a disaster. Yeah. Ross
Speaker 1: from Friends really changed my opinion of that cart Ashy
Speaker 1: and guy. Whenever he says juice, do you believe it?
Speaker 1: Do you believe it? You believe that? Ross from Friends
Speaker 1: not only calls his friend that, but because he's such
Speaker 1: a fan of his friend, he's so excited to get
Speaker 1: to call Juice like you hear that in him, like
Speaker 1: this this this, it was, it's really heartbreaking. It's a
Speaker 1: great I like the the I like that the trial
Speaker 1: O J. Simpson solid, that's a great products before we
Speaker 1: plug getting more document series that we don't have claiming
Speaker 1: I'd like to plug the the O J series. I
Speaker 1: like it. I watched it, you know, maybe about once
Speaker 1: a year when I get sick, when it's time for
Speaker 1: you know, Ross from Friends and his love of O. J. Simpson.
Speaker 1: It's good TV for when you get sick. Uh. Then
Speaker 1: I also have a Twitter account that you can find
Speaker 1: if you want, and you can listen to my year
Speaker 1: and Mensa and the Bechel Cast if you want, And
Speaker 1: you can find me on a mountaintop in Idaho with
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of of of young followers the violent
Speaker 1: hands of the f d A. I don't, I don't.
Speaker 1: I'm just not allowing this. Are you trying to protect
Speaker 1: me for myself? You're so sam, sir, what I do?
Speaker 1: He does not only do the episode on you when
Speaker 1: you're killed by the f d A. Clearly, I can't
Speaker 1: stop waycoing. I can't stop waycoing. There's some merch. Now,
Speaker 1: there's some merch. Um. I think we should end the
Speaker 1: episode before you do anything else that upside. Is there
Speaker 1: any other way you'd like to perjure yourself before pretty
Speaker 1: episode work? Yeah, let me give you my feelings on UH.
Speaker 1: And that's the episode.