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Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,

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Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.

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Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,

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Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting

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Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven

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Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eight Central on Oxygen, the new

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Speaker 1: network for crime Climb stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius

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Speaker 1: XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. This young, aspiring pastor

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Speaker 1: charged with murdering his Sunday school teacher wife. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean by what happened? Year old Matthew Phelps arrested

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Speaker 1: after a detailed and disturbing called to She stood on

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Speaker 1: the floor between labored breadth an alarming admission, and there's

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Speaker 1: your boy knife on the bed. I think I care,

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Speaker 1: a disoriented sounding caller telling the dispatcher he took cough

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Speaker 1: medicine to sleep the night before. He qualifies that yes,

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Speaker 1: it looks like I did kill her. The knife is here.

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Speaker 1: I have blood all over me. However, this medicine made

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Speaker 1: me do it. A beautiful young Sunday school teacher stabbed

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Speaker 1: to death in her own bed, the alleged perpetrator covered

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Speaker 1: in blood. We want answers, this as the autopsy report

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Speaker 1: just released. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. Take a listen to the

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Speaker 1: urgent nine one one call not one one with Badger

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Speaker 1: Day rights, probably North Carolina. Okay, and what is your

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Speaker 1: first and last thing? Fun of you coming from saw

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Speaker 1: a number? Yes, sir, let me exactly what happened? I

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Speaker 1: think I chilled my What what do you mean by that?

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Speaker 1: What happened? I had a dream and then that's turn

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Speaker 1: on the lights and she said on the floor. How

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Speaker 1: how I'm blood? I'm highs blood all over me and

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Speaker 1: there's a bloody knife on the bed and I think

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Speaker 1: I did it. Okay, do you mean all right? Stay

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Speaker 1: on the phone with me. I'm getting there and get left. Okay.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe this. I can't believe this. When did

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Speaker 1: you When did you wake up to find this? I

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Speaker 1: don't even know what time it is? All right, stay

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Speaker 1: on the phone with me, so I'm just gonna ask

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Speaker 1: if you questions. Okay, I'm getting some help to you.

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Speaker 1: Are you with Are you with the patient? Now? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can see your Okay, all right, how does the

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Speaker 1: how does the patient? How's your She's pretty dyed? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Is she is? She awakened? All right? Now? What makes

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Speaker 1: you think she's there? Does she? Wait? She thought? Three? Did? Okay? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Good god? Okay? Do you think she is bond beyond

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Speaker 1: any help? I told though, I told I'm too scared

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Speaker 1: to get too close to her. Okay to stay on

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Speaker 1: the phone with me, sir, I'm here with you. I'm

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Speaker 1: here with you and scared. I'm sorry. I've already sent

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Speaker 1: the paramedic s talthy. Okay, I'm saying someone to assist you.

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Speaker 1: Just please leave everything as you founded? Is there anything

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Speaker 1: else we can do for you? Said? Where's where is

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Speaker 1: the knife? Right now? If I saw the bed, I'm

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Speaker 1: not next to it, so I'm not. I don't have

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Speaker 1: the lesson on there and it to like that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: when did you when did you wake up? I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I took I took more medicine than

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Speaker 1: I should have. What medicine did you take? I took.

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Speaker 1: I took core seating, causing coldest course seating HUPKEI causing

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Speaker 1: bold because I know it to make you feel good.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of times I can't sleep at night. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So all right, what is it? What are you sure

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Speaker 1: it's not breathing, She's not losing? Oh my god, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna stay here. I feel okay.

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Speaker 1: Just just let's let's least see if she's breathing. Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, Mr Black Just can you see her from

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Speaker 1: where you're at? Yeah, it's so bad, okay, all right,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna stay here on the phone with you and

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Speaker 1: to help get there. Okay, Um, just don't don't touch anything.

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Speaker 1: Just look at if she is she's breathing at all?

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Speaker 1: Is her chest moving? Is anything going on with her? No? Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna leaves dried on me. It's dried.

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Speaker 1: The bloods is not wet on me. The blood is dry. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what. God, all right, Well, at least

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Speaker 1: we're gonna at least try to help her. Okay, all right,

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Speaker 1: just give me this alright. I've already sent the paramedics

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Speaker 1: to help you. To stand a lot on them too.

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Speaker 1: Exactly what to do next? Okay, are are you right

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Speaker 1: by her? Blood? I can see her us? Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: stay with me, sir. I know, I know, just as upset,

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Speaker 1: but we were gonna try to do what as much

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Speaker 1: for as you can. If you're not sure that she's gone,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna try to help her. Okay, So just listen carefully,

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Speaker 1: Just listen, okay, sir, first, just just look at her

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Speaker 1: right now? Is it became? Tell me what you see

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Speaker 1: is she gets the chest moving and she's breathing anything

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Speaker 1: at all? This is all he's so deserved. I understand, sir,

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Speaker 1: I understand, but right now we just want to make

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Speaker 1: sure we're doing as much as possible. Is there anyone

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Speaker 1: else at all in the home with you? But it

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Speaker 1: is it just you and her? Where are you in

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Speaker 1: the house? Where are you in the house there? Because

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Speaker 1: says the why I don't okay, Well, all right, is

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Speaker 1: the door unlocked? Can you can you go do that

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Speaker 1: for me? So I waited paramedics get in? Can are

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Speaker 1: you able to do that? Okay? Go ahead and go

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Speaker 1: ahead and stay on the stay on the phone with

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Speaker 1: and go ahead and unlocked the door. Okay, who would

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Speaker 1: you say, sir? Can you say, baby, go ahead and

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Speaker 1: unlock the let me know when she's done. Now, okay,

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Speaker 1: let me know. Want the doors unlocked. Mha, okay, I'll

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Speaker 1: these the officers are there. I'm gonnas okay, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: let you go. I'm gonna let you go. Yes, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the so called cough syrup killer. The aspiring

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Speaker 1: Bible student graduated becoming a pastor anytime now, instead claims

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Speaker 1: he was high on cough syrup when he gets some

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Speaker 1: from his job as a lawn care worker, high on

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Speaker 1: cough syrup, and in some kind of a daze, murders

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Speaker 1: his young wife. Now, this is what is so critical.

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Speaker 1: In the last hours, the autopsy report has been revealed.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now, Steve Helling from People Magazine, Cheryl McCullum,

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Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute, and Karen Stark, psychologist,

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Speaker 1: Joining us out of New York. Steve Helling, you're on

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Speaker 1: the case, explained to me the very latest on the

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Speaker 1: cough syrup murder. The autopsy report came out, and it

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Speaker 1: is brutal. She had a hundred and twenty three either

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Speaker 1: stab wounds or slash wounds, you know, knife wounds, including

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Speaker 1: and this is this is crazy to me. Twenty four

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Speaker 1: staff wounds and twenty cuts to her neck head, So

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Speaker 1: that's forty four slashes or or stabs with a knife

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Speaker 1: on her neck or head. Then she had him on

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Speaker 1: their corso, and then there were all sorts of them

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Speaker 1: on our arms to us. Stave Stave, Stave, Stave Stave.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate your exuberance. That's always nice in a man

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Speaker 1: to be, you know, enthusiastic. Uh, can you slow it down?

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm drinking out of a fire hydrant.

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Speaker 1: Break it down for me too much at once. I've

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Speaker 1: got to analyze, literally, I mean, Cheryl McCollum, you were

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Speaker 1: right there in the courthouse and I was trying cases.

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Speaker 1: When I had an autopsy report, I literally would have

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Speaker 1: to study each line because it's it's a foreign language.

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Speaker 1: It's like you're in medical school trying to understand what

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Speaker 1: they're saying. Cheryl. To pick up on an autopsy report

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Speaker 1: is no easy thing for a late person. Oh, it's

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Speaker 1: not at all, Nancy, And I agree with you. Line

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Speaker 1: by line, word for word is going to pay in

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Speaker 1: a picture here. So as much as I appreciate the enthusiasm,

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Speaker 1: Steve Helling from people magazine. Slow down the train, Now

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Speaker 1: start at the beginning. The first thing I heard was

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Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty three stab wounds. I really don't

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Speaker 1: need no if I need to hear anything else, because

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Speaker 1: I don't know how any Let me just say it,

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Speaker 1: jackass could sleep through a hundred and twenty three stabs

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Speaker 1: and then wake up and his wife is dead. But

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'm reserving judgment till I hear the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. Tell me, Steve, start at the beginning autopsy report,

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Speaker 1: Like we said, a hundred and twenty three wounds, which

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Speaker 1: you know, some of them were very deep and some weren't.

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Speaker 1: But you know, there was a struggle, and it was

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Speaker 1: quite a struggle. And it's obvious that this wasn't just

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Speaker 1: you know, the first stab wound was not the one

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Speaker 1: that killed her. To Cheryl McCollum, crimes seemed expert and

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Speaker 1: the director of the Cold Case Institute, Cheryl, let's just say,

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Speaker 1: without dating ourselves, this is not our first rodeo. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about what exactly you know another thing, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: What I like to do when I look at a

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Speaker 1: crime scene. First of all, I want everybody to be

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Speaker 1: quiet and let me just look at it. Let me

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Speaker 1: look at every single thing. I'll never forget a Jane

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Speaker 1: Doe murder. And I was at the scene where the

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Speaker 1: body was found and I saw her ear ring about

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Speaker 1: two ft away from the body and people had already

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Speaker 1: started stepping on it. I went, whoa, whoa, Well, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, that was so significant that one thing, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: because if you looked at her naked ear you could

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Speaker 1: see that the ear ring had been ripped from the ear.

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Speaker 1: The other ear ring was lost. Okay. That said to

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Speaker 1: me that I was not at just the disposal site,

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Speaker 1: that this was where the crime occurred, because ripping out

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Speaker 1: an ear ring tells me there was a struggle right there.

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Speaker 1: It turned out that that was correct, and it was

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Speaker 1: way out in an open field, way down in South Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone would ever have looked there,

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Speaker 1: but see that told me something. That told me that

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Speaker 1: one ear ring told me this Jane Doe had been

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Speaker 1: transported there from where we finally, through circumstantial evidence, figured

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Speaker 1: out she had gotten off a mar Ta train station

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Speaker 1: and that that was the killer's m O. Turned out

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Speaker 1: this was not his first murder. He would get people

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Speaker 1: coming off a mart to train and from that one clue,

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Speaker 1: as it turned out, Sheryl McCullum, we could crack really

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Speaker 1: the whole timeline in scenario and find the killer. So

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Speaker 1: one clue, one fiber, one bit of d n A,

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Speaker 1: anything can help prove a case. Do you agree or disagree?

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Speaker 1: Sheryl McCullum, I completely agree, And Nancy, in this case, specifically,

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Speaker 1: with all of those injuries and wounds, I'm gonna want

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Speaker 1: to know how many are defensive, if any, how many

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Speaker 1: year postmortem if any, and how then did she wind

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Speaker 1: up on the floor if they were asleep at the time,

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Speaker 1: So the timeline is gonna be what time does he

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Speaker 1: say they went to bed? Was she awake when this

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Speaker 1: happened or was she asleep? And he claims on the

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Speaker 1: number one one call, if you remember, he said he

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Speaker 1: just woke up and there's blood all over him. Well,

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Speaker 1: if that's the case, that means he's slept somewhere, so

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Speaker 1: there should be blood on the floor where he slept

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Speaker 1: or in the bed where he allegedly slept. So that's

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Speaker 1: gonna tell whether his story has any credibility at all.

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Speaker 1: The preacher who blames his wife's murder on a costs

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Speaker 1: syrup overdose now, according to the autopsy report, actually stabbed

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Speaker 1: her one hundred and twenty three times. The twenty nine

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Speaker 1: year old North Carolina woman, who's newly wed husband tells

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Speaker 1: one one he oeded on cole madisine, was slashed and stabbed.

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Speaker 1: She was found in a fetal position. To Steve Helling

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Speaker 1: from People Magazine, I'm sure she had defensive wounds on

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Speaker 1: her arms and knees, correct. I mean, if she was

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Speaker 1: in a fetal position, that means she was curled up

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Speaker 1: trying to protect herself, right exactly. And you know, we

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Speaker 1: know for sure that there were um, thirty five cuts

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Speaker 1: and stab wounds to her left arm, and then also

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Speaker 1: sixteen cuts on her right arm. And you know, um,

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Speaker 1: considering that she had all these other wounds, those seemed

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Speaker 1: to be things that she was trying to either protect

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Speaker 1: herself in some way, just because there's so many of them.

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Speaker 1: I remember, Cheryl, when I first had a defensive wound

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Speaker 1: on a woman's knees. She had been beaten with probably

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Speaker 1: a bat, and then her home set on fire. She

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Speaker 1: she died for smoke inhalation ultimately, but she had a

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Speaker 1: blow to the head. I'm sure you remember the case

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about. But Cheryl, when the medical examiner said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a defensive wound, I said, on her knee, and

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Speaker 1: he went yes, because you're curling up and you're getting

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Speaker 1: blows to the you know, from your elbow down, when

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Speaker 1: you're holding your arms up on your your hands and

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Speaker 1: you're curling your knees and legs up, so you're getting

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Speaker 1: defensive wounds on your kneecaps and from the knees down. Really,

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Speaker 1: that's where you see the most leg defensive wounds. Would

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Speaker 1: you agree with that, Cheryl, Yes, of course, Nancy. And

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Speaker 1: that's my point about her winding up on the floor.

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Speaker 1: She was trying to get away from the bed to

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Speaker 1: the floor. She did that trying to get away from

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Speaker 1: those blows. And I mean a hundred and twenty three Nancy.

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Speaker 1: And keep in mind, whatever the scenario is, she has

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Speaker 1: to go somewhere to get the knife, she has to

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Speaker 1: come back and have this horrific assault on her, and

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Speaker 1: then the knife winds up on the bed when she's

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Speaker 1: on the floor. And then again he's claiming he went

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Speaker 1: and slept somewhere while the blood dried on him. You're

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Speaker 1: talking about a great deal of time and a lot

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Speaker 1: of moving around. Nancy. Yeah, for for the blood to

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Speaker 1: dry with me is renowned psychologists out of Manhattan, Karen Stark, Karen.

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Speaker 1: A grand jury met on this case and they determined

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Speaker 1: the charge was not involuntary which is under the influence

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Speaker 1: of a drug or alcohol, or voluntary which we also

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Speaker 1: see in d y vehicular homicides, but premeditated murder, which

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Speaker 1: means that they believe he had time to planet intent

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Speaker 1: to kill. Now, of course, intent Karen, is you and

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Speaker 1: I've discussed can be formed in the twinkling of an eye,

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Speaker 1: from the time it takes you to point a gun

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Speaker 1: and pull the trigger. That's long enough for intent to form.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be a long, well planned scheme.

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Speaker 1: This jury, obviously, on what they heard, did not buy

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Speaker 1: I was high on coughts or and I don't remember

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Speaker 1: what happened. They're calling it premeditated murder. What do you think, Karen.

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Speaker 1: I know they were under a lot of financial stress. Us.

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Speaker 1: He never got a job as a pastor. He was

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Speaker 1: you know, cutting grass. She was working, she had a degree.

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Speaker 1: She was working I think as a forensic accountant or

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Speaker 1: an auditor. I think it was and then even had

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Speaker 1: a second job trying to sell home goods from home.

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Speaker 1: You know it. She was working like crazy. Do you

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Speaker 1: think the marriage was falling apart? Karen? I think that

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Speaker 1: there was something really wrong with him, Nancy. Even if

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Speaker 1: he were affected by the cough medicine, whatever it was

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Speaker 1: that he was claiming, it would disinhibit him and there

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Speaker 1: would be that part of him would come out. And

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Speaker 1: obviously we can take cough medicine and we don't wind

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Speaker 1: up killing somebody. There's another side to this guy that

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Speaker 1: is not this wonderful husband, this Instagram perfect person who

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Speaker 1: loves his wife. He posted in the past that there

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Speaker 1: was a dark side to him and talked about his

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Speaker 1: dreams and that since he was young, they're very that

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Speaker 1: he has night terrors and hallucinations. There's more to him

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Speaker 1: than we really understand. Wait wait, wait, wait, what what

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Speaker 1: are you saying? Who said he's got a dark side

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Speaker 1: to him? I bet nobody knew that at Bada school.

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Speaker 1: He did tell me about that. In a previous um

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Speaker 1: texts and things that he had written on his Instagram page,

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Speaker 1: he called himself Marty Radical and there were photos of

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Speaker 1: him dressed in black. UM. He quotes from a band, um,

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Speaker 1: there is evil in my head. Do we have the

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Speaker 1: same guy? Are you talking about twenty nine year old

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Speaker 1: Matthew James Felts. Yes, I am okay, whoa whoa, Cheryl McCallum.

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Speaker 1: Did you know this, Nancy? I had seen a couple

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Speaker 1: of writings about that. And here's the deal. I think

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Speaker 1: he's either alibi building ain't seed to say, hey, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to use this later to say I was just

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Speaker 1: bringing and I don't know anything, or it is very

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Speaker 1: possible that that is basically a confession. I'll take you

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Speaker 1: the one. I want to go back through it very

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Speaker 1: slowly if you don't mind here, and so I can

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Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. Tell me exactly what you know

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Speaker 1: about his frame of mind, Karen Start. What it was

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Speaker 1: was on Instagram. He had posted I'm not sure when

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Speaker 1: in the past and said that he was He called

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Speaker 1: himself Marty Radical. There were photos of him dressed in black.

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Speaker 1: He quoted lyrics by a heavy metal band saying there

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Speaker 1: is evil in my head just let me be. And

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Speaker 1: he said that ever since he was little, and here's

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Speaker 1: the direct quote that I read, I've had some strong

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Speaker 1: activity with my dreams nightmares, night terrors, sleepwalking, hallucinations and

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Speaker 1: controlled dreams have all filled my life so far. Dave

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Speaker 1: Helling with People Magazine because all of this that Karen

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Speaker 1: and Cheryl are alluding to his postings his dark dreams.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what kind of dark dreams

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Speaker 1: he was having at Bible School. Nobody seemed to know

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Speaker 1: about it there. But now suddenly he's having dark dreams,

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Speaker 1: dresses in black and calls himself Marty radical. Sounds like

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Speaker 1: he's paving the way for a mental defense. Why didn't

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Speaker 1: they just break up Steve Helling for Pete's sake? Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a good question. You know, I went to Bible College, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: and I do know that there's this there's pushed do

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Speaker 1: you get married, married his marriages for life? This is

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Speaker 1: what it is. And if you're unhappy, that's sometimes just

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Speaker 1: the way it goes. And so I don't know if

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Speaker 1: she just felt pressure not to split up. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if she had this dark side. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if this dark side is calculated. But what I do

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Speaker 1: know is that you had a part, a side of

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Speaker 1: himself that nobody in his life seemed to really know

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Speaker 1: about it, and now it's coming out. Well, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: he had it on Instagram. How can you say nobody?

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Speaker 1: I mean, if Karen Sarcastral McCullum know about it, I

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Speaker 1: would pretty much say his wife and family and friends knew.

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Speaker 1: You know what you say that, But I know so

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Speaker 1: many people who do things online and just their spouse

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Speaker 1: never sees it, or they don't talk about it with

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Speaker 1: their spouse. You know, I can't imagine that she thought

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Speaker 1: for a minute that her life was in any sort

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Speaker 1: of danger. Otherwise she would have left him. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think this came out of nowhere for her. I

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Speaker 1: don't know about that, because Karen Start, I agree with

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Speaker 1: almost everything you said. Stayed helling with People Magazine at

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Speaker 1: Karen Start A lot of times, for instance, and abusive relationships,

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Speaker 1: you stay in it, never dreaming that one day it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be your last day, that that blow is gonna,

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Speaker 1: you know, knock you down the stairs and you break

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Speaker 1: your net or whatever, you're gonna get pushed in front

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Speaker 1: of a car. I don't know the scenario. But women

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Speaker 1: stay in relationships without realizing or or without allowing themselves

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Speaker 1: to realize they are in mortal danger. That's not that uncommon.

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Speaker 1: I mean domestic homicide, for Pete's sake, that's the number

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Speaker 1: one cause of death. Unlikes pregnant women. It's all aside.

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Speaker 1: It's not blood pressure, it's not childbirth, it's all aside.

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Speaker 1: That's right now. See. It's it's so much about um

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Speaker 1: feeling terrible about yourself and hoping and believing that the

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Speaker 1: person that you're with will change, and she did. They

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Speaker 1: were married. She keeps posting all these beautiful pictures of

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Speaker 1: the two of them, So there's a lot of denial

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Speaker 1: that was going on here. They're struggling financially, and she's

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Speaker 1: making them look like the prince and princess of happy

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Speaker 1: couple of them. I don't think that she really understood

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Speaker 1: that this was possible. And as for why he would

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Speaker 1: do that instead of just leaving her, I mean, when

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Speaker 1: you have that kind of a rage inside of you,

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Speaker 1: you have a desire to carry it out. You know,

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Speaker 1: you touched on so many important factors right there that

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Speaker 1: are going to come in front of this jury because

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Speaker 1: that's where it's headed. He's not gonna plead flat out

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Speaker 1: to life without parole or the death penalty. That's not

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Speaker 1: gonna happen. He's gonna have a showdown in court. Why

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Speaker 1: not roll the dice and see if a jury comes

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Speaker 1: back with a not guilty hung jury or a lesser

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Speaker 1: like voluntary manslaughter. Maybe some nut on the jury would

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Speaker 1: buy the cost syrup defense. But I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about what Karen just said, Steve Helling. Is it true

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Speaker 1: that when police left at home they took four computers, receipts,

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Speaker 1: a mortgage statement, a knife, set, credit cards, and Laurence

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Speaker 1: iPhone all that taken from the home, because typically if

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Speaker 1: there's an accident in the home, they don't start rifling

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Speaker 1: through your mortgage statements. All right, there's a reason they

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Speaker 1: took that, Steve Helling. They were in financial trouble, and

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Speaker 1: we he would not get off of his bomb and

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Speaker 1: go get a job with a church or some type

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Speaker 1: of religious organization or foundation to bring in some money

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Speaker 1: to the home. He was just fine with cutting whatever

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Speaker 1: I can get. Interesting, the things that are on this um,

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Speaker 1: you know they got from the sort on their search warrant.

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Speaker 1: We're not just you know, obviously the knives make sense,

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Speaker 1: the bedsheets, that makes sense, but they also got a

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Speaker 1: lot of things so that they could reconstruct this couple's life.

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Speaker 1: The best way to you have is to take their phones,

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Speaker 1: their computers, their receipts. You'll know, you know, the police

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Speaker 1: will know everything about their finances and whatever debt they

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Speaker 1: were in and everything just on the things that they took.

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Speaker 1: So they must be trying to come up with some

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Speaker 1: sort of motive for why this happened, because these aren't

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Speaker 1: physical items that would have been used and murder. These

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Speaker 1: are actually, you know, things about scenes from their life. Well,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you one thing, Steve Howling. I know

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Speaker 1: you're the crack investigative reporter for People magazine, but when

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Speaker 1: it comes to men killing women, it's either money or set. Okay, ladies,

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Speaker 1: am I wrong? Help me out here, McCollum. Money or

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Speaker 1: sex it always is. I mean, a woman will get

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Speaker 1: mad because you didn't leave a rose on her pillar

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Speaker 1: for the anniversary and she'll blow your head off. But

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Speaker 1: a man, it's always money or sex. Always. Sorry man,

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Speaker 1: sorry to break that to you, Alan Duke and Steve Helling,

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Speaker 1: But there's your two motives. You don't think there's a

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Speaker 1: girlfriend boyfriends, there's some reason he won't out and had

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Speaker 1: to do it this way. But Nancy, I want to

401
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Speaker 1: point out something else, really quickly. Look at the details

402
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Speaker 1: he gave. I'm covered in blood. The blood is broad.

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Speaker 1: He gave the exact location of the night, but then

404
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Speaker 1: he just says I had a dream. He gives no

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Speaker 1: details of the dream. Was he being attacked in the dream?

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Speaker 1: Was he the attacker in the dream? Was he fighting

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Speaker 1: some mythical creature I called thes on his story? You

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Speaker 1: know what? He was so dark and smart, Cheryl mccaull um.

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Speaker 1: Was his dream? I had a dream? Okay, what dream?

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Speaker 1: You're so right? I guarantee you this much. He'll know

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Speaker 1: what the dream is. By the time he goes to trial, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: he'll have that dream down. Pat You'll know exactly what happened.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he'll be crying on the stand in tears,

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Speaker 1: telling the jury about this bad dream. So, Karen Stark,

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Speaker 1: you know, I know you spend your days thinking deep

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Speaker 1: thoughts about psychology and dealing with all your clients and patients.

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Speaker 1: But you know it's money or sex. It's one of

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Speaker 1: the two, right Karen. I mean, I know that's pretty simplified, elementary,

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Speaker 1: rudimentary for you, but can you weigh in on that

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Speaker 1: he may also be a sociopath. He may be somebody

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Speaker 1: who has just been looking for an opportunity to kill.

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Speaker 1: To me, when you read those posts that he allegedly

423
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: wrote on Instagram, that's as though he's coming up with

424
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: a defense ahead of time. You know that he has

425
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: these vivid dreams and he annacts things. So I don't

426
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: really know when it comes to this guy. Money or sex, yes,

427
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: in most instances, but he stabbed her so many times

428
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: that it makes you wonder, you know, like what was

429
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: really going on with him psychologically? And he just may

430
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: be someone who enjoys killing has been waiting to do

431
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,040
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432
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433
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434
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435
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439
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440
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441
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442
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444
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445
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446
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449
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450
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462
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Speaker 1: a k C dot com code Nancy. Thanks link a

463
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: k C. You know I I remember, um, Cheryl McCollum

464
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: reading a book. This is before I had the twins

465
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: and acquired my knee motto. If I have time to

466
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: read a book, I have time to write a book.

467
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: This is when I still got to read books. Um,

468
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: And I was reading a passage. I think it was

469
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: some book that was trying to convince you to be

470
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: a vegetarian, believe it or not. Yes, And Cheryl it

471
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: was talking about now just go with me for a minute.

472
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: Steve Helling quick groaning, Um that when you are okay,

473
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: you're going it through a walk, just say, in Central

474
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: Park and a little at monk crosses your path is

475
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: your first inclination to chase down the chipmunk and eat

476
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: it because mine is not okay. But if you see

477
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: an apple growing on a tree, you kind of have

478
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: a natural instant you want to go pick the apple

479
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: or the fig or whatever it is. It's just a

480
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: natural instinct. It fits in your hand, it's not running

481
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: away from you. I mean, it's kind of a natural instinct, okay.

482
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: And that's always stuck with me, and I never explained

483
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: it that way. I actually explained it to juries with

484
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: a story about a frog and a scorpion as to

485
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: what is someone's nature, But that's another story. But what

486
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: I'm saying is Karen Steve Helling is talking about his nature.

487
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: Had he always is that his nature? Does he want

488
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: to chase down the chipmunk and skin it and eat it?

489
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: I mean, is his nature to kill and this is

490
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: his opportunity to do it? Or did he kill for sex,

491
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: for love, for some other a girlfriend, because of money problems,

492
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: because he wanted out of the relationship, because he realized

493
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: he didn't want to be married. Is it true Steve

494
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: Helling that he actually sliced her jugular vein? Yes, it is.

495
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: That was one of the many wounds on her, you know,

496
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: on her neck area. So yeah, I mean, listen, I

497
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: understand the idea of money or sex, and you know,

498
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to be married anymore. But you know,

499
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: that's when you cut the brake lines in the car

500
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: or something like that. That's not when you stabbed somebody

501
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty three times. That's more than just

502
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: I have a girlfriend on the side, or we're having

503
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: money problems. There's a rage there. It's totally different. You

504
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 1: know what You're right, I know you're an investigative reporter

505
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: for the Incredible People magazine. But I think you may

506
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: have a side a side career in therapy because a

507
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty three stab wounds, including the jugular, Karen Start,

508
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: that's a rage killing without a doubt, Nancy. And that's

509
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: why I really don't think the test to do with um, Oh,

510
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: he was just fantastic guy and then overnight he took

511
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: this cough medicine and became a rage killer. This has

512
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: been overnight, Marty Radical had been in existence for a

513
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: really long time. About this, Jackie has a very insightful question,

514
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: which it would have probably taken me three weeks in

515
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: front of a jury before it popped in my head.

516
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: But Cheryl McCollum, stabbing or slicing someone in their juggular vein,

517
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: let's think about that that one thing just a moment,

518
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: because if he was in a frenzy killing, I mean, yes,

519
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: I guess technically he could have sliced her in the neck,

520
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: but I mean, when people are trying to protect themselves,

521
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: I think that had to be an intentional thing to

522
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: specifically go for her juggular, no doubt. But here's the thing.

523
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: This guy was in a rage, There's no question, and

524
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: this could have been that he was going after her

525
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: because it's something that she was going to do, if

526
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,239
Speaker 1: she was going to leave him, if she was going

527
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: to tell people the reason why, and he was not

528
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: going to let that happen. So to me, it has

529
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: more of that feel to it. He was going to

530
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: stop her from either outing him for being gay, outing

531
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: him for being brogue, outing him for being abusive, whatever

532
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: it was he was stopping her, Steve Helling, did she

533
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: have on her pajamas? Was she dressed for bad when

534
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: she was killed? Was she naked? Did she still have

535
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: on her clothes from earlier that evening, because that would

536
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: really tell me a lot. That's a good question. I'm

537
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: looking here at the report to see if it's if

538
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: there's anything about that. I don't know the answer to that.

539
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that I know the number of

540
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: staff wounds and that type of thing. It would be

541
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: really interesting to know what she was wearing because that

542
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: would tell us, you know, what she was thinking at

543
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: the time. Was she on her way out the door

544
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: or was she asleep like exactly exactly, That's what I'm saying,

545
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: Cheryl McComb about one clue. Can't completely crack open your

546
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: theory because if she had on her pj's. You know

547
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: how when you're getting in bed and you're going to sleep,

548
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: very often you'll start going I'm unhappy, or I want

549
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: to tell you what happened about so and so, because

550
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: it may be the first time you actually you're not

551
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: in motion, in movement, you lay down to go to sleep,

552
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: and you're you've got that twenty minutes or so before

553
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: you fall off to sleep. That could have been when

554
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: they got into a discussion if she had on her

555
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: pj's or did she have on Remember that night before

556
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: she was murdered, she did a video for since S

557
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 1: C E N T S. Why I think it's selling candles,

558
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: you know, like Yankee candles or whatever they are now,

559
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: um um, she was selling them, you know, like a

560
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: little home business. Did she have that outfit on? Because

561
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: to me, that will totally torpedo his claim he was asleep.

562
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: That would have meant he stabbed her dad before they

563
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: ever even got in bed. At His whole story is

564
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: a lie. So it really matters, right, Cheryl, Absolutely, it

565
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: matters completely Nazy, That's what I'm saying. His version of

566
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: what time, did you. I'll go to bed. And that

567
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: was my point earlier where he claims he just woke up.

568
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: I can guarantee you there's no blood on his side

569
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: of the bed where he went back to bed. There's

570
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: not a spot of blood near her where he laid

571
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 1: down and you know, to the rest of his sleep

572
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: there and then suddenly woke up with blood all over it.

573
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: There's not gonna be that secondary stain anywhere. Guys, what

574
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: we're talking and what you're hearing right now is exactly

575
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: how I would build a murder case. You go through

576
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: like we've just gotten the autopsy report on this beautiful

577
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: young girl, and we are gleaning every shred of probative

578
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: evidence from the autopsy report we can, and we are

579
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: asking the questions that would prove or disprove one theory

580
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: or the next. This is how cases are built. You

581
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: find your deficiencies, you try to shore them up, or

582
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: you prepare to fight them. And what you're hearing right now,

583
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't you a grace, Sheryl, as how we prepare cases

584
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: to take to a jury exactly like this. Oh, no doubt,

585
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: and Nathy, I remember something else you did one time,

586
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: a long time ago. It came down to mascara. There

587
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: was a woman that had been murdered by her husband,

588
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: and he claimed that she had already left for work.

589
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: That was the story, so he didn't know what had happened.

590
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: To remember, she did not have a makeup. Remember that.

591
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: I just remembered it now that you said it. Yeah,

592
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: and this young woman depends she had just put up

593
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: a video. She's in makeup. If she's killed with makeup

594
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: owns and she hasn't finished her nightly routine to remove

595
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: that make Chryl McCollum, and they're gonna be able to

596
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: prove it with something just that simple. You know what?

597
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: I forgot all about that case. I mean, I remember

598
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: the murderer, and now I remember she had a pretty

599
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: high powered job, like not a T n T but

600
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: something corporate. And she would always remember the days we

601
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: always had to wear a suit or a dress. Pantyhose

602
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: I know they were created by men. They're like little

603
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: torture chambers for your pilvis. And okay, so she had

604
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: I would always wear pantyhose hills a suit, and I

605
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: mean she had short, um brown hair. Of course, she

606
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: was the only one working in the home. Supporting her

607
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: husband and children. Nothing wrong with that. And um, she

608
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: never would go into the office without her lunch. She

609
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: always made her lunch to save money, and she would

610
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: always be perfectly made up. And she was found She

611
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: had on her work clothes, but she did not have

612
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: on your right, she did not have on her Misscara

613
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: or her makeup, which proved to me she was not

614
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: really on her way to work. She was not about

615
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: to get out of the car and go into the office.

616
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: She was killed at home and then put in that car,

617
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: and the car was left in a parking garage because

618
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 1: of Mescara. You're right, Cheryl McCullum, exactly. And that is

619
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 1: how you prove a case. And now we had to Pensacola, Florida,

620
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: the Gulf Shore. A little girl is dead. Why. According

621
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: to police, a three hundred and twenty five pound adult

622
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: woman sat on the nine year old little girl as punishment.

623
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: As punishment, she sat on her for twelve minutes, depriving

624
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: her of oxygen. The little girl is dead. You know,

625
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: right when i think I've seen it all, I find

626
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 1: out I haven't joining me right now. Crime Stories contributing

627
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Drew and Nelson Drew. Let's start at the

628
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: beginning what happened that this was supposedly a punishment for

629
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: the subtle girl. She's nine years old. Her name is

630
00:38:55,120 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: Dereka Lindsay, nine year old little girl, and her her

631
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: cousin who's much older cousin, she's in her sixties. This woman,

632
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: the police are saying, she sat on the girl because

633
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: she was acting out of control, sat on her to

634
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 1: where she couldn't breathe. So what I know is Dereka

635
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: Lindsay of Pensacola. This little nine year old girl goes

636
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: into cardiac arrest after she complains she couldn't breathe when

637
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: her much older cousin, who she called Aunt, Veronica Green Posey,

638
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: sat on her to punish her for acting quote out

639
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: of control. I mean a nine year old little girl.

640
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: That could be them yelling or singing, or slamming the door,

641
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: it could be anything. She sat on her as punishment.

642
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: Paramedics race to the scene and the nine year old

643
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: little girl was rushed to Baptist Hospital, where she was

644
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: immediately pronounced dead. Now this woman, the aunt, the cousin,

645
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: tal's police she sat on the girl in an armchair

646
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: to discipline her for quote, being out of control. When

647
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: she stood up, she says she realized the girl was

648
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: unresponsive and tried CPR. Now Posey says she weighs three

649
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five pounds. I'm I'm shocked, Karen starts,

650
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: psychologists joining us what. I've never heard of anything like it.

651
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: Neither have I, Nancy. It's such an extreme punishment for

652
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: a nine year old. I mean, I've heard of time out,

653
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: but this is actually abusive. You don't have to hit

654
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: somebody to be abusive. This is a case where someone

655
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: is using all their weight and actually killing a little

656
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: girl as punishment. Well another thing we know, um, you know,

657
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: and spanking or not spanking is a whole another can

658
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: of worms. A swat on the booty. I tried to

659
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: swap the wins on the booty, especially Lucy John Davis

660
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: just Mr Happy Lucy Well. I tried when they were

661
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: about too and they had on such thick pull ups.

662
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 1: They just looked at me like, what what did she

663
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: just do? What was that? I just, you know, I

664
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: gave up right then and then I went with time out,

665
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: which was really like a punishment to me because there's

666
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: no lock on the door, and I have to stand

667
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: there to keep Lucy in time out. Now my life

668
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 1: is a lot easier. And just say I'm taking away

669
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: your iPad and suddenly everybody shapes up, even my husband

670
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: taking away your iPad. Everybody just falls in line, lockstep.

671
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: It's awesome. No more time out, know me having to

672
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: be the bathroom door police woman. So here, I don't

673
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: quite understand the significance of sitting on a little bitty,

674
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: very small framed nine year old girl trapped in an armchair.

675
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: There's nowhere she could go. She sat there and went

676
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: into cardiac arrest. Drew Nelson, Do we have any other

677
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 1: information about what she did to deserve that, Drew Nelson?

678
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: I cannot tell you what she deserved, um other than

679
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: what the police said that her her aunt, her cousin

680
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: who they called her aunt, said she was out of control.

681
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 1: But I tell you what is so unbelievable about this.

682
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: This is the last, the last moments of this little

683
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: girl's life. The last thing she did was complete. She

684
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: said I can't breathe. She was she was conscious throughout

685
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 1: this whole thing. She she and the last thing she

686
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: did was say she can't breathe and then she couldn't

687
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: breathe anymore. She stopped breathing. That's the point that um,

688
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: the cousin had to start doing CPR. She said I

689
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,479
Speaker 1: can't breathe and was crying, crying to be set free.

690
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: We also know this fact to Alan do joined me

691
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: from l A. We know her parents were also charged

692
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: in the incident. H James Smith gray Smith charges of

693
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: child neglect it for failing to report the abuse. Also,

694
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 1: gray Smith charged with cruelty toward a child. And of course,

695
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: guess what, Posey's already out on bond. Why why is

696
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: she out on bond. Let's look at her parents. First

697
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: of all, her mother, the person listed as her mother

698
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: on the arrest report, Grace Jones Smith, is sixty nine

699
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: years old. So I'm assuming that this child was adopted,

700
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: perhaps from another family member. But the mom was sixty nine.

701
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: The dad, James Edmund Smith, also charged sixty two. So

702
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: these perhaps were actually her grandparents, That's one assumption I

703
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: would make. But they called Posey over to their house,

704
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: they were neighbors, and not only that, being her aunt,

705
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: they're listed as the parents. What does that mean? I

706
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: don't know. The arrest report says that the mom Grace Smith,

707
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: called her niece Posey over to her house asking for

708
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: help because she said Dereka is just out of control.

709
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: So Posey came over. This three pound woman came over

710
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: and hit the child with a ruler and a metal pipe.

711
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: That's when Dereka ran into the armchair sat in it,

712
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: and that's when Posey allegedly sat on her for ten minutes,

713
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: causing the death. A nine year old little Florida girl

714
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: is dead after a three hundred and twenty five pound

715
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: woman sits on her as punishment. The little girl is crying,

716
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: say she can't breathe. She's trapped in an armchair because

717
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: with an arm on either side and a three hundred

718
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: and pound weight on you, there's nowhere for you to go.

719
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: The little girl begging for help. Karen start. Did you

720
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: hear about the pipe and the ruler being beaten with

721
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: a pipe and a ruler? Yes, this isn't your regular punishment,

722
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: as you were talking about, Nancy, with the kind of

723
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: family that we're used to. And I want to tell

724
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: you something. When we were taught, if we were working

725
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: with kids that were out of control and severely emotionally

726
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: disturbed kids, we were never taught to sit on them.

727
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: We were taught to hold their arms wrapped around them

728
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,479
Speaker 1: so they couldn't hurt themselves. Never ever have I heard

729
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: of punishment by crushing somebody. That's just unnatural, cruel, so

730
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: extreme that it's it's hard to talk about it. A

731
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: nine year old crushed hitting a child with a pipe,

732
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: I mean right there, that should have landed them behind

733
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 1: bars for child in dangerment or child cruelty. But imagine

734
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: this feeling the little girl had Karen where her parents

735
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: and the three pound cousins slash aunt. We're all ganged

736
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: up on her. I mean, when your child is in distressed.

737
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: They looked to mommy, Mommy, help me, Mommy, come come now,

738
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: help me. But mommy and daddy were in on it.

739
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: They were colluding with her. Harn this little girl and

740
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: what happened to You need to be you need to

741
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: control yourself. Go to your room, calm down. We want

742
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: to hear what you have to say. No, they were

743
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: all colluding to do extreme punishment, possibly entering her, and

744
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 1: no one seemed to be able to pull themselves together

745
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: and say they could be terrible outcomes as a result

746
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: of this. This is awful. Well also we know, of course,

747
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: Drew Nelson. We learned that the a guy named Mike Carroll,

748
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: he's the secretary of the Florida Department and Family and

749
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: Children's Services, issues a statement calling her death appalling and

750
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: claiming they will now work with the Sheriff's office. But

751
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: he also says the family has had prior interaction with

752
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: the child welfare system. You know what that means, Drew,

753
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 1: There's been trouble before, and they left the girl in

754
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: the home and now she's dead. I sound like a

755
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: broken record, Ry Nelson. There's a history here there that

756
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: was something that we've got to dig into deeper with this.

757
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: The mother and the father, Grace and James Smith. Uh.

758
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: Now I see that they are still in jail. That's

759
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: what the record show that there's they haven't bonded out yet.

760
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: Now I don't even know if they were granted bond,

761
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: So we don't know if there is a deeper, longer

762
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: case that could be going on here. Uh. The person

763
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: who is accused of sitting Veronica Posey, who is accused

764
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: of sitting on the nine year old girl, the three

765
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: pound woman, she did bond. She she got out on

766
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: bond dollars bond, I was saying earlier, she's already out,

767
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: she's out on bond and the parents are about to

768
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: get out there just getting the money together to get out.

769
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to imagine what this little girl

770
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: Dereka went through. Could it be Karen Stark, this is

771
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 1: Jackie's there that's sitting on her, or just an quote

772
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: easy way to control her? It's I think it's horrible.

773
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: What a horrible, horrible way to die as a child.

774
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: You're out numbered by three adults, including your mother and father,

775
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: going along with it as you beg for air and cry,

776
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: and they let you die. I think it's a death

777
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: penalty case. I think that it certainly was something that

778
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: wasn't thought out. Is it an easy way to control her? Yes,

779
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: if we assume that killing somebody is always an easy

780
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: way to control them. It's as though they couldn't think

781
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: of any alternatives, that they couldn't be more creative. All

782
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: they could think about is, you know, we'll have somebody

783
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: crush her without any consequences. We have no idea what

784
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: this little Dereka lived through before this insane act of

785
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: a three pound she monster sitting on a very slight

786
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: nine year old little girl until she's dead. You know

787
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: they got a one way ticket to hell, as far

788
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: as I'm concerned with, little pit stop in the penitentiary.

789
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend. Do you

790
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799
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