1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,980 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,900 --> 00:00:15,570 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,650 --> 00:00:18,110 Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb, and today I have a special interview 4 00:00:18,190 --> 00:00:20,669 Speaker 2: for you. I got to chat with Gio Rutherford, known 5 00:00:20,730 --> 00:00:24,169 Speaker 2: for Spooky Lake Month and her Haunted Hydrology book series, 6 00:00:24,470 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: which includes the latest installment, Spooky Rivers, 25 Strange and 7 00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: Mysterious Rivers That Snake Across Our Planet, which she wrote 8 00:00:32,780 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: and illustrated. This is just a really super fun book, 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,610 Speaker 2: full of science, full of history and culture, and and 10 00:00:40,770 --> 00:00:45,409 Speaker 2: amusing and amazing illustrations. We are big fans in my household, 11 00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:47,729 Speaker 2: so I was delighted to get a chance to chat 12 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:50,750 Speaker 2: with her. Now, Gio was in the middle of some 13 00:00:50,850 --> 00:00:54,310 Speaker 2: book promotion travel, so if you're watching the video version 14 00:00:54,350 --> 00:00:56,900 Speaker 2: of this episode on Netflix, you're going to notice that 15 00:00:56,980 --> 00:01:00,460 Speaker 2: she is recording from a stationary car. We felt this 16 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: was better than having her record on the move or 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 2: on a ferry, though I suppose that would have been 18 00:01:06,140 --> 00:01:09,940 Speaker 2: apt for the subject matter, right? Anyway, without further ado, 19 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:16,100 Speaker 2: let's jump right in to the interview. Hi, Gio. Welcome 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:16,500 Speaker 2: to the show. 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,500 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. 22 00:01:19,300 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you here on Stuff 23 00:01:22,110 --> 00:01:24,789 Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind during the month of October. That's 24 00:01:25,330 --> 00:01:27,729 Speaker 2: when the interview is publishing. And this is a big 25 00:01:27,770 --> 00:01:28,509 Speaker 2: month for you, right? 26 00:01:28,770 --> 00:01:31,730 Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually feel like I should have started with, yes, hello, 27 00:01:31,770 --> 00:01:33,970 Speaker 1: because that's how I usually start my videos in October. 28 00:01:33,990 --> 00:01:37,670 Speaker 1: It is Spooky Lake Month. We are in the midst 29 00:01:37,730 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: of it. 30 00:01:38,700 --> 00:01:41,110 Speaker 2: And are there any teasers you want to throw out 31 00:01:41,150 --> 00:01:45,430 Speaker 2: about the sort of content that listeners and viewers can expect? 32 00:01:45,850 --> 00:01:47,430 Speaker 1: Well, Spooky Lake Month is a little bit of a 33 00:01:47,470 --> 00:01:51,210 Speaker 1: misnomer because it's always been about anything wet and weird. 34 00:01:51,490 --> 00:01:54,470 Speaker 1: So any type of, we say it's 31 days of 35 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:58,140 Speaker 1: haunted hydrology. And I've been saving up a few rivers 36 00:01:58,180 --> 00:02:00,620 Speaker 1: for this year. So I'm looking forward to talking about 37 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,820 Speaker 1: the Congo River and the Ganges River and some rivers 38 00:02:03,860 --> 00:02:05,340 Speaker 1: that are extremely spooky. 39 00:02:06,030 --> 00:02:09,710 Speaker 2: Now, when you say haunted hydrology, can you, for anyone 40 00:02:09,750 --> 00:02:11,210 Speaker 2: out there, I think most of our listeners are going 41 00:02:11,230 --> 00:02:13,410 Speaker 2: to be familiar with what you're all about. But can 42 00:02:13,430 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: you explain what this means to you, like what it 43 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 2: is and also what it isn't? 44 00:02:18,540 --> 00:02:20,900 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very important thing because I do think 45 00:02:21,060 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: it's a little, it can be a little bit on 46 00:02:22,419 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: the outside, a little confusing. But Spooky Lake Month is awesome. 47 00:02:26,150 --> 00:02:30,030 Speaker 1: all nonfiction. It's about the world being spooky by herself. 48 00:02:30,310 --> 00:02:35,090 Speaker 1: It's about environmental disasters. It's about history. It's about natural 49 00:02:35,130 --> 00:02:39,220 Speaker 1: phenomena and science. And it's not about true crime or 50 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: ghosts and ghouls or conspiracy theories. It's more trying to 51 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:47,500 Speaker 1: focus on the historical events in the natural world. Awesome. 52 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,340 Speaker 2: Yeah. My kiddo is the one who introduced me to 53 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,530 Speaker 2: you and your work. And I And that's one of 54 00:02:54,550 --> 00:02:56,450 Speaker 2: the things they stressed at the top. They're like, no, no, no, dad, 55 00:02:56,490 --> 00:03:00,790 Speaker 2: it's not ghosts. This is science. This is geology. This 56 00:03:00,850 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: is great content. And indeed, it is. So we're here 57 00:03:04,620 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: mostly to talk about the book. I have it right here. 58 00:03:07,020 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to hold it up for folks viewing on Netflix. 59 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: Spooky Rivers, 25 Strange and Mysterious Rivers that Snake Across 60 00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: Our Planet. This is out now. This is the second 61 00:03:18,250 --> 00:03:21,669 Speaker 2: in your Haunted Hydrology series that began with Spooky Lakes 62 00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:25,250 Speaker 2: and You wrote this, you illustrated it. It's a great 63 00:03:25,310 --> 00:03:30,570 Speaker 2: mix of science, geology, history, hydrology. Were there particular books 64 00:03:30,650 --> 00:03:33,070 Speaker 2: that you loved as a young person that kind of 65 00:03:33,110 --> 00:03:36,820 Speaker 2: like inspired or informed the ultimate shape of these two volumes? 66 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: Definitely. I was a child of a science teacher. My 67 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,780 Speaker 1: mom was an earth science teacher. She has a PhD 68 00:03:43,820 --> 00:03:48,430 Speaker 1: in geology, hence my nickname has always been Geo, owed 69 00:03:48,470 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: to Sandra's sense of humor. And when I was a kid, 70 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: I really loved those, you know, different types of books 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: that just were packed full of information. I was such 72 00:03:59,780 --> 00:04:02,180 Speaker 1: a science-y kid. I thought I would become a science teacher, 73 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: but I ended up going the route of doing art instead. 74 00:04:04,820 --> 00:04:09,470 Speaker 1: But I just loved science information. And the one I 75 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:12,150 Speaker 1: wrote to my publisher about when I first started working 76 00:04:12,190 --> 00:04:14,210 Speaker 1: was I'm not going to remember the guy's name who 77 00:04:14,250 --> 00:04:17,849 Speaker 1: made it, but it was the books of castles where 78 00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:20,610 Speaker 1: it was like a cross section of castles. And then 79 00:04:20,630 --> 00:04:23,099 Speaker 1: you could see what everybody was doing inside the castle. 80 00:04:23,150 --> 00:04:26,260 Speaker 1: It's like a history of like medieval times. Um, I 81 00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: was obsessed with that book as a kid. And so 82 00:04:28,860 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: that's kind of the one that stands out in my 83 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,100 Speaker 1: mind when I was thinking about illustrating this book. 84 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,820 Speaker 2: Um, I'm going to jump ahead to a question I 85 00:04:35,820 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: had for later because I think it's connected here, but, um, 86 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 2: I have a lot of fond memories of finding hidden 87 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 2: things in the books of my childhood, particularly like there's 88 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: an artist by the name of John O'Brien who did 89 00:04:49,100 --> 00:04:52,140 Speaker 2: Favorite Tales of Monsters and Trolls, and they're always little details. 90 00:04:52,220 --> 00:04:55,539 Speaker 2: And I know you have some little things hidden, some 91 00:04:55,580 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: itty-bitty ghosts hidden in these books. Can you tell us 92 00:04:58,779 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: a little bit about where that came from and how 93 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:04,779 Speaker 2: readers can look for them? 94 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,450 Speaker 1: Yeah. I definitely also feel like a childhood from Where's 95 00:05:09,490 --> 00:05:13,950 Speaker 1: Waldo and I Spy is inspiration here. When I was 96 00:05:13,970 --> 00:05:16,490 Speaker 1: an undergrad, some of my first etchings, I have a 97 00:05:16,529 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: printmaking background, I included little ghosts. So I'd actually been 98 00:05:21,460 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: doing this for a long time leading up to this 99 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:27,219 Speaker 1: book coming out. And then for my videos, if you 100 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,700 Speaker 1: ever watch my TikTok videos or whatever, my social media, 101 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:36,260 Speaker 1: I include a hidden good soup. So my audience knows 102 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,130 Speaker 1: to look for a tiny hidden good soup in the videos. 103 00:05:41,110 --> 00:05:45,849 Speaker 1: And the ghosts were kind of an ode to that concept. 104 00:05:46,290 --> 00:05:49,230 Speaker 1: People really love it, but I don't think people outside 105 00:05:49,270 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: of the Spooky Lake Month community would really understand the 106 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: good soup reference. It's kind of like a deep internet 107 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,469 Speaker 1: meme that escaped... into my videos and so the ghosts 108 00:05:59,529 --> 00:06:01,190 Speaker 1: are kind of an ode to that and an ode 109 00:06:01,230 --> 00:06:03,870 Speaker 1: to the fact that I do love spooky stuff and 110 00:06:03,890 --> 00:06:06,930 Speaker 1: I love ghosts and I love the whole kind of 111 00:06:06,990 --> 00:06:09,409 Speaker 1: vibe but at the same time this is nonfiction so 112 00:06:09,470 --> 00:06:12,250 Speaker 1: it's kind of a it's like a little tiny thing 113 00:06:12,290 --> 00:06:14,430 Speaker 1: about the horrors of history. 114 00:06:14,450 --> 00:06:16,950 Speaker 2: Now you've already told us a little bit about your 115 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 2: your background as a visual artist. For folks not familiar 116 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:26,260 Speaker 2: with the social media presence. How did the Spooky Lakes 117 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,550 Speaker 2: business start up on TikTok and then like on Instagram? 118 00:06:30,450 --> 00:06:33,390 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I was a high school teacher. I taught 119 00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:35,890 Speaker 1: high school ceramics and I decided to go to grad 120 00:06:35,930 --> 00:06:39,530 Speaker 1: school about five years into teaching. And I was just 121 00:06:39,550 --> 00:06:41,690 Speaker 1: going to continue being a teacher. I loved being a teacher. 122 00:06:42,170 --> 00:06:43,950 Speaker 1: But I did three years in grad school and I 123 00:06:44,029 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: wrote my thesis about the Great Lakes. So I was 124 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: doing a lot of research about Lake Michigan and pollution 125 00:06:51,060 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: and invasive species and everything that's going on with our 126 00:06:53,620 --> 00:06:56,860 Speaker 1: Great Lakes. And it made me really appreciate how special 127 00:06:56,900 --> 00:07:00,540 Speaker 1: they are and how unique they are in the world 128 00:07:00,580 --> 00:07:05,940 Speaker 1: of lakes. And as a result, in 2020, during the pandemic, 129 00:07:06,230 --> 00:07:10,510 Speaker 1: I posted a off the cuff video about Great Lakes education, 130 00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:14,330 Speaker 1: truly just like telling people about how they formed And 131 00:07:14,390 --> 00:07:18,210 Speaker 1: it popped off, did really well. And I've literally been 132 00:07:18,270 --> 00:07:21,420 Speaker 1: riding that wave ever since, just like making educational content 133 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: about lakes of the world. And Spooky Lakes was kind 134 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,420 Speaker 1: of an accident. I just happened to recognize that there's 135 00:07:27,460 --> 00:07:31,140 Speaker 1: a lot of weird looking lakes on Earth. And that 136 00:07:31,220 --> 00:07:33,900 Speaker 1: first year in 2020, the videos were limited to a minute. 137 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,180 Speaker 1: And I just did lakes that kind of looked weird. 138 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,510 Speaker 1: Ever since then, we've kind of branched out to a 139 00:07:41,530 --> 00:07:44,250 Speaker 1: little bit more than just lakes that are kind of 140 00:07:44,270 --> 00:07:47,470 Speaker 1: visually weird. And now it's more interested in science and 141 00:07:47,510 --> 00:07:49,230 Speaker 1: history and so on and so forth. But yeah, that's 142 00:07:49,250 --> 00:07:51,850 Speaker 1: where it started. And it was surprising that so many 143 00:07:51,870 --> 00:07:55,060 Speaker 1: people loved it. Yeah. 144 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,940 Speaker 2: Now, I haven't seen the earliest videos that you did. 145 00:07:58,020 --> 00:08:00,180 Speaker 2: My kiddo showed me a bunch of the ones that 146 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: they were really digging at the time. Did you begin 147 00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: with using like little bits of art and sort of 148 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: the signature, I guess, framing of your videos? 149 00:08:10,460 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, my forehead at the bottom. Yeah. That was something 150 00:08:14,340 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: from the very beginning, actually. And it's not— I wish it 151 00:08:16,700 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: was like I was cool and thinking about it, but 152 00:08:18,940 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: actually it was just because I couldn't figure out how 153 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,179 Speaker 1: to shrink my head. Like, I would try to pinch 154 00:08:23,580 --> 00:08:25,750 Speaker 1: my head to shrink it so it would be smaller, 155 00:08:25,810 --> 00:08:28,590 Speaker 1: and I couldn't do it. And so I just kind 156 00:08:28,630 --> 00:08:29,810 Speaker 1: of put my head at the bottom to get out 157 00:08:29,850 --> 00:08:34,050 Speaker 1: of the way, and I— Those early videos were more 158 00:08:34,130 --> 00:08:39,709 Speaker 1: rough and kind of made more haphazardly. Now they're more curated. 159 00:08:39,730 --> 00:08:42,150 Speaker 1: I definitely work harder to make sure that the videos 160 00:08:42,770 --> 00:08:44,910 Speaker 1: are about two and a half minutes at the most. 161 00:08:45,309 --> 00:08:48,830 Speaker 1: And yeah, I use kind of an accumulation of content 162 00:08:48,870 --> 00:08:51,130 Speaker 1: from all over the place and my own work, my 163 00:08:51,150 --> 00:08:53,350 Speaker 1: own paintings, if it's relevant to the video as well. 164 00:08:53,790 --> 00:08:55,990 Speaker 2: And when did you realize this was going to take 165 00:08:56,010 --> 00:08:57,730 Speaker 2: the form of a series of books? 166 00:08:58,590 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. In 2021, I had a really good year. 167 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,550 Speaker 1: Spooky Lake Month did super well in 2021, and I 168 00:09:06,590 --> 00:09:09,929 Speaker 1: had a literary agent reach out to me, and kind 169 00:09:09,970 --> 00:09:11,850 Speaker 1: of the rest is history. We started working on the 170 00:09:11,890 --> 00:09:14,010 Speaker 1: concept of the book, and then I started to paint 171 00:09:14,030 --> 00:09:15,980 Speaker 1: the book in 2023, 2024, and then it came out 172 00:09:16,010 --> 00:09:24,099 Speaker 1: in 2024. So I had no idea that this could 173 00:09:24,140 --> 00:09:25,900 Speaker 1: result in a book, but it does feel like a 174 00:09:25,980 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: marriage of all of my favorite things as an artist, 175 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:32,740 Speaker 1: as a pursuer of spooky things, and as a fan 176 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: of lakes and water. It's kind of a perfect blend 177 00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: of all of those interests that I have. 178 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,580 Speaker 2: So do you write first and then illustrate? Is that 179 00:09:41,900 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 2: the process roughly? 180 00:09:43,530 --> 00:09:45,189 Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of wish that it was a little 181 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:46,829 Speaker 1: more mixed up. But yeah, you kind of have to 182 00:09:46,870 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: do things in giant chunks. So I actually do the 183 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:52,660 Speaker 1: first thing is just writing the whole thing from start 184 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,540 Speaker 1: to finish. And you even go in and you start 185 00:09:54,580 --> 00:09:57,530 Speaker 1: making some pretty heavy edits at that point. And then 186 00:09:57,590 --> 00:09:59,310 Speaker 1: you go in and I have to do a sketch 187 00:09:59,390 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: for everything. So I have to draw everything and even 188 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,220 Speaker 1: do the layouts because that helps me kind of understand 189 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,950 Speaker 1: what fits in the spaces for the compositions. And then 190 00:10:09,070 --> 00:10:11,750 Speaker 1: from there, you do all the painting all in one go. 191 00:10:11,809 --> 00:10:15,150 Speaker 1: So it's very much like blocked into those three categories 192 00:10:15,890 --> 00:10:16,410 Speaker 1: of working. 193 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:20,849 Speaker 2: Now, does your sort of illustrator brain ever sort of 194 00:10:20,890 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 2: get ahead of your writing brain? And do you sort 195 00:10:22,980 --> 00:10:25,860 Speaker 2: of ever pick something out because you really want to 196 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: illustrate that later on during the illustration phase? 197 00:10:29,380 --> 00:10:32,100 Speaker 1: Definitely. There's even a few little tidbits in the book 198 00:10:32,140 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: where I was like, man, we have to include this 199 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:35,819 Speaker 1: because I just really want to paint it. I just 200 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,780 Speaker 1: think it's the most fun thing ever to paint. I 201 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: definitely start thinking about the compositions way ahead of time 202 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: before I ever get to them. And some of them 203 00:10:44,340 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: come so easily, and it feels like the first composition 204 00:10:47,660 --> 00:10:49,910 Speaker 1: that I kind of pictured in my mind ends up 205 00:10:49,950 --> 00:10:53,689 Speaker 1: kind of coming to fruition. And then other times, something 206 00:10:53,710 --> 00:10:56,270 Speaker 1: really unexpected happens, and I don't know what I'm going 207 00:10:56,290 --> 00:10:58,350 Speaker 1: to do from the get-go, but it kind of ends 208 00:10:58,429 --> 00:11:02,890 Speaker 1: up turning into something unexpected that I didn't know was 209 00:11:02,910 --> 00:11:04,989 Speaker 1: going to happen at the beginning. So that's kind of 210 00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:06,650 Speaker 1: a fun part of the artistic process. 211 00:11:07,390 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: So, again, the first book was Lakes. The new book 212 00:11:11,170 --> 00:11:14,980 Speaker 2: is Rivers. I think everyone listening or watching this interview 213 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:17,740 Speaker 2: knows the difference between the two. But I thought you 214 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: might speak to maybe the difference in spirit of the 215 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,190 Speaker 2: two things, you know, in terms of your writing and illustrating. 216 00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:27,929 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. You know, it's interesting. When it comes down 217 00:11:27,950 --> 00:11:31,150 Speaker 1: to it, I feel like I didn't expect there to 218 00:11:31,210 --> 00:11:34,250 Speaker 1: be such a dramatic difference just in the way that 219 00:11:34,309 --> 00:11:38,979 Speaker 1: these things behave. lakes are, they kind of contain and 220 00:11:39,020 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: they hold, it feels like their stillness kind of holds 221 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: secrets beneath the surface. And rivers are kind of always 222 00:11:45,340 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: on the move and they're so destructive. Like there was 223 00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:51,510 Speaker 1: so many destructive topics that I could have talked about 224 00:11:51,530 --> 00:11:57,469 Speaker 1: with this book just because they're very violent as a 225 00:11:57,550 --> 00:12:01,510 Speaker 1: feature on this earth. So it was interesting because writing 226 00:12:01,550 --> 00:12:04,030 Speaker 1: about lakes felt a little bit more like I was 227 00:12:04,090 --> 00:12:07,729 Speaker 1: writing about what was hidden beneath the surface more. And 228 00:12:08,490 --> 00:12:11,930 Speaker 1: writing about rivers was more about writing about violence and 229 00:12:11,970 --> 00:12:17,630 Speaker 1: writing about something that was, is so intuitively like destructive 230 00:12:17,950 --> 00:12:22,370 Speaker 1: and sometimes very unexpected. Like a river is more likely 231 00:12:22,510 --> 00:12:26,150 Speaker 1: to kill you than a lake in most cases. There's 232 00:12:26,170 --> 00:12:28,370 Speaker 1: some deadly, there's some pretty deadly lakes that you got 233 00:12:28,390 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: to be careful about, but definitely rivers are just, you know, crazy. 234 00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:37,829 Speaker 2: So it's kind of like if lakes and rivers were 235 00:12:38,050 --> 00:12:41,890 Speaker 2: like Dungeons and Dragons monsters, the lakes are more like 236 00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 2: waiting for you to fall into them. Yeah. And the 237 00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: river is going to actively come after you. 238 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And lakes have the opportunity because they're kind 239 00:12:52,260 --> 00:12:56,939 Speaker 1: of holding this water. There's strange things that happen to 240 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,219 Speaker 1: the composition of that water if you leave it there 241 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,420 Speaker 1: for long enough. So lakes that are salty or lakes 242 00:13:02,490 --> 00:13:08,090 Speaker 1: that are... acidic or lakes that are base or things 243 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,650 Speaker 1: like that. Different things happen when the water is kind 244 00:13:10,690 --> 00:13:12,670 Speaker 1: of sitting there for a long time. We still have 245 00:13:12,890 --> 00:13:15,830 Speaker 1: weird rivers in that, like the Rio Tinto in Spain, 246 00:13:15,850 --> 00:13:21,250 Speaker 1: it has had mining runoff flowing into it for thousands 247 00:13:21,290 --> 00:13:25,020 Speaker 1: of years, and it's turned like neon red, neon orange 248 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: as a result. Even though it's kind of constantly flowing, 249 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: it's so strong, this runoff, that it's kind of affected... 250 00:13:32,670 --> 00:13:35,870 Speaker 1: the river itself, but that's a little more rare versus 251 00:13:35,929 --> 00:13:39,189 Speaker 1: a lake can be very much polluted and stay polluted 252 00:13:39,250 --> 00:13:41,510 Speaker 1: for a long time because that water is not on 253 00:13:41,550 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: the move. It's sitting there and kind of holding. So 254 00:13:45,740 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: I find that to be kind of an interesting difference 255 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: between the two things. Oh, wow. 256 00:13:50,840 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I want to ask some specific questions about 257 00:14:03,940 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: some things in the book. And again, I recommend everyone 258 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,110 Speaker 2: pick up a copy of this. Can you tell us, 259 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:10,820 Speaker 2: I can tell you had a lot of fun illustrating 260 00:14:10,860 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: this one and it's fabulous to behold. Can you tell 261 00:14:14,020 --> 00:14:16,359 Speaker 2: us a little bit about the zombie salmon of the 262 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: Fraser River? 263 00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you nailed like one of my favorite paintings 264 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,180 Speaker 1: in the book too. I really loved painting a giant 265 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,950 Speaker 1: rotting dead salmon. It was so much fun. Like for sure, 266 00:14:26,990 --> 00:14:29,310 Speaker 1: one of my favorite paintings. And I really liked painting 267 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,060 Speaker 1: I painted the salmon head on a plate, and that 268 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,460 Speaker 1: was just like, when else am I going to get 269 00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: that opportunity to paint something like that? The zombie salmon, 270 00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: you know, I just presented to a bunch of kids 271 00:14:41,260 --> 00:14:43,620 Speaker 1: on this book tour, and it's amazing how even kids 272 00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: here out in Washington, they don't really know a lot 273 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: about the fact that these salmon travel from the Pacific Ocean. 274 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:52,980 Speaker 1: They spend years in the Pacific Ocean, then they come 275 00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: up the rivers, and that's something a lot of people 276 00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: know about. But what people don't know is that through 277 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: that process, they transform. The sockeye salmon really transform. That's 278 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,670 Speaker 1: what I do in my book. I showcase in my 279 00:15:04,690 --> 00:15:08,370 Speaker 1: book because they turn like neon red and green and 280 00:15:08,410 --> 00:15:10,570 Speaker 1: they get this hump on their back and they get 281 00:15:10,610 --> 00:15:15,229 Speaker 1: this giant hooked nose with these elongated teeth. They're very 282 00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:17,950 Speaker 1: scary looking. And as they're working their way up the 283 00:15:17,970 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: river and they're battling for this right to spawn, they 284 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,700 Speaker 1: are tearing each other apart and they're using all of 285 00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: their body's resources. So what happens is they are in 286 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: this process of fulfilling the lives of their next generation. 287 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:40,650 Speaker 1: They are actively dying and their death is very slow 288 00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: where they actually are literally molding and rotting while they're 289 00:15:46,300 --> 00:15:49,359 Speaker 1: still swimming in the river. And so you end up 290 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:54,250 Speaker 1: with these like really grotesque looking fish that are still, 291 00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:57,610 Speaker 1: they're on the move. They're trying to fulfill their destiny 292 00:15:57,690 --> 00:16:02,870 Speaker 1: of spawning in these tributaries. And at the same time, 293 00:16:02,910 --> 00:16:05,700 Speaker 1: they're kind of the walking dead fish. So it is 294 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,500 Speaker 1: such an interesting topic and it's so gross. I found 295 00:16:08,540 --> 00:16:10,940 Speaker 1: that rivers, I talked a lot more about animals and 296 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: rivers because there's just so many strange and unusual animals 297 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:16,830 Speaker 1: in the rivers of the world. Yeah. 298 00:16:16,910 --> 00:16:18,830 Speaker 2: Another one that I can tell you also had a 299 00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:22,530 Speaker 2: lot of fun illustrating is the Goliath tigerfish. How does 300 00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:25,060 Speaker 2: this one shape up to the zombie salmon in terms of, 301 00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: I guess, creepies? Oh, yeah. 302 00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:29,820 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that my painting, the one thing with 303 00:16:29,860 --> 00:16:31,940 Speaker 1: my painting is as much as I had fun painting it, 304 00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:34,580 Speaker 1: I don't really know if it shows the scale very well. 305 00:16:35,380 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: The Goliath tigerfish are enormous. They are enormous, giant fish 306 00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:44,660 Speaker 1: with humongous teeth. They are found all over in different 307 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,750 Speaker 1: areas of Africa, but they're especially found in the Congo River. 308 00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:50,870 Speaker 1: And the Congo River is kind of scary. That painting 309 00:16:50,910 --> 00:16:53,990 Speaker 1: is another interesting side to that painting is that there's 310 00:16:54,090 --> 00:16:57,050 Speaker 1: no way for us to ever photograph the bottom of 311 00:16:57,530 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: of the Congo River. It's 700 feet deep, which is 312 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: the deepest river in the world, and it's full of sediment, 313 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:09,030 Speaker 1: so there's always moving mud and sediment in the water. 314 00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:12,030 Speaker 1: As a result, you can't see more than one foot 315 00:17:12,109 --> 00:17:14,649 Speaker 1: in front of you, maybe not even a few inches 316 00:17:14,730 --> 00:17:17,670 Speaker 1: in front of you. So I had to really imagine 317 00:17:17,770 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: what this world would look like in this sediment-filled void 318 00:17:22,020 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: in this river, in the darkest points of this river. 319 00:17:24,580 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: So you have to kind of like take the artistic 320 00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:29,060 Speaker 1: interpretation a little bit where you wouldn't really be able 321 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,700 Speaker 1: to see these branches and these sticks and these leaves 322 00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:36,290 Speaker 1: that are all kind of flowing around in some of 323 00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:42,370 Speaker 1: the greatest rapids on Earth. And I imagine that nothing like, 324 00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:46,770 Speaker 1: you know, plants and like, you know, algae and stuff 325 00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:49,290 Speaker 1: struggle to survive in that type of environment because there 326 00:17:49,310 --> 00:17:52,389 Speaker 1: isn't enough sunlight there. So I was kind of doing 327 00:17:52,430 --> 00:17:56,510 Speaker 1: this kind of barren landscape with these huge Goliath tigerfish. 328 00:17:56,570 --> 00:17:59,490 Speaker 1: And it was a really interesting thing to paint. And 329 00:17:59,510 --> 00:18:02,649 Speaker 1: that painting was very, I was like figuring it out 330 00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:04,820 Speaker 1: as I go, which I don't do very often. So 331 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: looking back, it was a really fun experience to paint that. 332 00:18:08,580 --> 00:18:13,530 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. That was a very eye-catching illustration for sure. Now, 333 00:18:13,730 --> 00:18:16,190 Speaker 2: I was also really excited to read in the book, 334 00:18:16,450 --> 00:18:22,810 Speaker 2: you have the section about underground rivers, focusing on Shibuya 335 00:18:23,210 --> 00:18:25,670 Speaker 2: River in Japan. Can you tell us a little bit 336 00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:29,729 Speaker 2: about underground rivers in general, how you selected this particular one, 337 00:18:30,050 --> 00:18:32,820 Speaker 2: and how excited we should be for the underground temple? 338 00:18:34,730 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you actually can go and travel to the underground 339 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: temple in Tokyo. If you wanted to do a really 340 00:18:40,460 --> 00:18:45,310 Speaker 1: weird tourist trip, is that you can actually go to their... 341 00:18:45,470 --> 00:18:49,070 Speaker 1: Tokyo has buried a lot of their rivers, like, many 342 00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: cities in the world. The other one that I really 343 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: thought about doing was the River Neckinger in London, which 344 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: was this river that they ended up covering over, but 345 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,780 Speaker 1: it was, like, where many people got, like, hung alongside of, 346 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: and so it has this really morbid history. But in Tokyo... 347 00:19:08,660 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: That was like a river valley. Like, there were so 348 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,690 Speaker 1: many rivers there, and most of them are now kind 349 00:19:13,730 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: of covered by concrete. Shibuya is just one of many. Actually, 350 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,710 Speaker 1: in my painting for... the second page where there's kind 351 00:19:21,730 --> 00:19:25,979 Speaker 1: of these neon signs over this concrete trench holding the 352 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: only part of this river that you ever really get 353 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: to see, which is like in this concrete kind of belly. 354 00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: And all of the signs in neon are actually the 355 00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: names of all of the other rivers that are buried 356 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,619 Speaker 1: underneath the city in Tokyo as well. So kind of 357 00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: giving an ode to the fact that there's just hundreds 358 00:19:46,619 --> 00:19:49,889 Speaker 1: of these rivers that have vanished beneath the concrete. Um, 359 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:52,629 Speaker 1: And the other reason I picked that one instead of 360 00:19:52,650 --> 00:19:57,950 Speaker 1: other cities was because people in Japan actually like to 361 00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:01,830 Speaker 1: trace these rivers and kind of rediscover these rivers and 362 00:20:01,930 --> 00:20:04,959 Speaker 1: find where their source is and try to figure out 363 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,020 Speaker 1: where they are under the concrete by tracing the sounds 364 00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:12,300 Speaker 1: of water and where there are little bridges that used 365 00:20:12,340 --> 00:20:15,540 Speaker 1: to go over the water. So I found that to 366 00:20:15,580 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: be really interesting. kind of romantic, this idea that we're 367 00:20:19,010 --> 00:20:22,470 Speaker 1: kind of trying to rediscover these waterways that we've buried. 368 00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:26,770 Speaker 1: And so Tokyo partly did that because they have a 369 00:20:26,830 --> 00:20:29,230 Speaker 1: flooding issue. And unlike a lot of cities in the world, 370 00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:33,209 Speaker 1: they're really trying to prevent this from happening, where cities 371 00:20:33,290 --> 00:20:36,590 Speaker 1: kind of become these holding grounds for water when you 372 00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: have these massive rain events or flooding events. So they 373 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:47,370 Speaker 1: built an underground... essentially this temple, this huge holding tank 374 00:20:47,770 --> 00:20:53,350 Speaker 1: for a massive, massive amount of water. And they take 375 00:20:53,369 --> 00:20:55,090 Speaker 1: you on tours down there, so you can kind of 376 00:20:55,150 --> 00:20:58,950 Speaker 1: go and walk around. It feels like cavernous, like something 377 00:20:58,970 --> 00:21:01,290 Speaker 1: out of Lord of the Rings and these giant caves 378 00:21:01,369 --> 00:21:04,669 Speaker 1: and tunnels, but it's been funneled out by humans to 379 00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:06,929 Speaker 1: be able to make sure that during flooding events, the 380 00:21:06,990 --> 00:21:09,230 Speaker 1: water doesn't end up in the subways and it doesn't 381 00:21:09,310 --> 00:21:13,350 Speaker 1: end up in basements. Instead, it gets all specifically tunneled 382 00:21:13,410 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: into this intricate system that Tokyo has built. So yeah, 383 00:21:17,060 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: I love talking about those underground rivers. 384 00:21:21,580 --> 00:21:23,619 Speaker 2: Yeah, I had to look up some photos of it 385 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,370 Speaker 2: after seeing your illustration. And yeah, it looks like looks 386 00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:28,169 Speaker 2: like a cathedral, also looks kind of like maybe the 387 00:21:28,190 --> 00:21:31,050 Speaker 2: inside of a spaceship. I wish I'd known it was 388 00:21:31,090 --> 00:21:34,210 Speaker 2: there when I visited Tokyo. If I go back, I'm 389 00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:35,690 Speaker 2: going to have to try and hunt this down. 390 00:21:36,430 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: Definitely feels like a good modern day tourist thing to do. 391 00:21:41,380 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: Like you don't really, that's kind of on the outer 392 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: bounds of tourism in Tokyo. 393 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. And in general, just this, yeah, this idea of 394 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: underground rivers, like I know in the first book, you 395 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:58,650 Speaker 2: have examples of of underground lakes of different sorts. And yeah, 396 00:21:59,650 --> 00:22:01,570 Speaker 2: the spirit of the two is rather different, right? Because 397 00:22:01,609 --> 00:22:04,649 Speaker 2: with the underground rivers, like these are things on the 398 00:22:04,690 --> 00:22:08,210 Speaker 2: whole that humans have put underground. We've kind of imprisoned 399 00:22:08,250 --> 00:22:10,970 Speaker 2: them underneath our cities and other structures, right? 400 00:22:10,990 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. There are some places that have underground rivers that 401 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,310 Speaker 1: are natural in these karst landscapes, such as the Yucatan Peninsula. 402 00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: I did include the Sac-Aquitune, which is a river in 403 00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:29,220 Speaker 1: the Yucatan Peninsula that is fully underground. The Yucatan Peninsula 404 00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:32,230 Speaker 1: has no natural rivers on the surface because it's so, 405 00:22:32,550 --> 00:22:34,530 Speaker 1: I'd say the ground is kind of like Swiss cheese. 406 00:22:34,550 --> 00:22:37,530 Speaker 1: Like it just has so many holes and crevices and 407 00:22:37,630 --> 00:22:40,750 Speaker 1: caves where this water flows. That's also where you get 408 00:22:40,790 --> 00:22:44,619 Speaker 1: these really spooky cenotes that I talk about in the 409 00:22:44,660 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: Lakes book and I also reference in the Rivers book. 410 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,060 Speaker 1: I love those because they were like the main water 411 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:53,540 Speaker 1: source for the Maya and for Aztec communities as well, 412 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: just like using these sinkholes that popped up In the ground. So, yeah, 413 00:22:58,619 --> 00:23:02,230 Speaker 1: I love things that vanish underground are very spooky inherently. 414 00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:07,169 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've ever covered this one on 415 00:23:07,369 --> 00:23:09,570 Speaker 2: your show, and I'm not sure there's enough here. It 416 00:23:09,609 --> 00:23:12,540 Speaker 2: may not be that interesting. But here in Atlanta at 417 00:23:12,859 --> 00:23:16,419 Speaker 2: our major airport, Hartsfield Jackson, we do have part of 418 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,380 Speaker 2: the Flint River that goes underneath the airport. And every 419 00:23:20,420 --> 00:23:22,460 Speaker 2: now and then I'll look that up on like Google 420 00:23:22,510 --> 00:23:24,450 Speaker 2: Maps and kind of like say, oh, yeah, there it goes. 421 00:23:24,510 --> 00:23:26,250 Speaker 2: And then, oh, you can peek at it again here. 422 00:23:26,350 --> 00:23:28,690 Speaker 2: And then it's back under the airport. Yeah. 423 00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:31,390 Speaker 1: No, that is. I mean, it definitely fits into that 424 00:23:31,450 --> 00:23:35,990 Speaker 1: category of like rivers that we've tried to harness, rivers 425 00:23:36,030 --> 00:23:38,510 Speaker 1: that we've tried to kind of lock down. I think 426 00:23:38,810 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: the river I regret not including in the book a 427 00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:44,540 Speaker 1: little bit was the Los Angeles River, which is another 428 00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:48,290 Speaker 1: river that's you know, cradled in concrete. It's essentially this 429 00:23:48,369 --> 00:23:51,270 Speaker 1: concrete passage that we've kind of put through the center 430 00:23:51,390 --> 00:23:54,490 Speaker 1: of one of the most populated places on earth. And 431 00:23:54,540 --> 00:23:58,659 Speaker 1: during storms, it's essentially like a glorified water slide. It 432 00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: essentially just, water goes flying down these concrete channels at 433 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: 45 miles an hour, like moving so fast. And people 434 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,220 Speaker 1: who get caught up in that really can't get out again. 435 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: So that was kind of, I think that any river 436 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,980 Speaker 1: that we have messed with is really kind of fascinating 437 00:24:17,030 --> 00:24:21,490 Speaker 1: because it never goes well. Yeah, absolutely. 438 00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:34,750 Speaker 2: I've heard you in other interviews, I'm thinking particularly of 439 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:38,369 Speaker 2: the one you did with Allie Ward, We've talked about traveling, 440 00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:42,090 Speaker 2: getting to travel and visit some of these sites, be 441 00:24:42,109 --> 00:24:45,410 Speaker 2: they domestic or international. So I was wondering, was there 442 00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:48,100 Speaker 2: a particular river covered in the book that you have 443 00:24:48,130 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 2: traveled to that you found really fascinating? And is there 444 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,700 Speaker 2: one that you haven't been to that you hope to 445 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 2: see one day? 446 00:24:55,060 --> 00:24:57,890 Speaker 1: Definitely. My favorite river that I traveled to, which was 447 00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:02,060 Speaker 1: a very... intense trip in my life, which was I 448 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:06,010 Speaker 1: went to the Boiling River with Andres Rousseau. He's the 449 00:25:06,050 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: scientist who kind of is credited with bringing the world's 450 00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:17,179 Speaker 1: attention to this river that boils in the I happened 451 00:25:17,220 --> 00:25:19,230 Speaker 1: to notice that he followed me on Instagram and I 452 00:25:19,290 --> 00:25:21,389 Speaker 1: followed him back. And then he invited me to come 453 00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:25,590 Speaker 1: last year. So I traveled down to Peru, starting through Lima. 454 00:25:25,650 --> 00:25:28,370 Speaker 1: Then we went, flew to Pucallpa. And then you took 455 00:25:28,430 --> 00:25:32,129 Speaker 1: this four by four, the craziest drive of my entire 456 00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:34,550 Speaker 1: life in a four by four vehicle to a town 457 00:25:34,609 --> 00:25:37,970 Speaker 1: called Honoria, where you get on a boat on a 458 00:25:38,010 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: Peque Peque. And then you walk through the literal jungle 459 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,660 Speaker 1: where you're, you can see monkeys and insects and tarantulas 460 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:50,810 Speaker 1: and scorpions and you're walking through like sometimes extremely thick 461 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,790 Speaker 1: mud which is kind of unnerving and you're sweating for 462 00:25:55,950 --> 00:25:58,869 Speaker 1: two weeks straight without stopping which was not something I 463 00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:01,730 Speaker 1: was used to and then you get to this river 464 00:26:01,790 --> 00:26:07,070 Speaker 1: that is literally frothing and boiling and bubbling and there's 465 00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: steam that's like you know pulsing into the surrounding jungle 466 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: and And it's incredible. It's the only boiling river in 467 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:21,910 Speaker 1: the world that isn't connected to a volcano. And it's 468 00:26:22,450 --> 00:26:25,870 Speaker 1: the hottest river in the world. Andres has measured spots 469 00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:28,590 Speaker 1: of it up to 210 degrees Fahrenheit. Wow. Yeah, it's very... 470 00:26:32,670 --> 00:26:35,790 Speaker 1: It's scary because people have fallen in and died there. 471 00:26:35,850 --> 00:26:38,129 Speaker 1: There's at least seven deaths that we know of that 472 00:26:38,170 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: have happened at the Boiling River. And I know that 473 00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:44,239 Speaker 1: people who have accidentally, like, their foot has slipped in 474 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,380 Speaker 1: have also suffered some pretty serious burns as a result. 475 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: But it's also different than a lot of these volcanic 476 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,230 Speaker 1: rivers because it doesn't have any heavy metals in it 477 00:26:53,330 --> 00:26:56,290 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have, like, arsenic or any kind of 478 00:26:56,970 --> 00:27:01,340 Speaker 1: toxic elements. aspects to it. Um, and so you can 479 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: actually drink it. It's like the one place in the 480 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: world where you can go and just take a cup 481 00:27:05,660 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: of tea and dip it in the river and then 482 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:11,340 Speaker 1: drink it. Um, there's no, there's nothing in the water 483 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,419 Speaker 1: that it's like as clean as bottled water. So it 484 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,230 Speaker 1: was a really amazing trip and I'll never go again. 485 00:27:17,250 --> 00:27:22,770 Speaker 2: Did you actually, did anyone on this trip actually do 486 00:27:23,109 --> 00:27:25,030 Speaker 2: like put a teabag into some tea? 487 00:27:25,330 --> 00:27:27,780 Speaker 1: Oh no, we did it every morning. We would go 488 00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:30,340 Speaker 1: down every single morning and we would all meet together 489 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: at the, because it's a very steep location. It's called Mayantiaku. 490 00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:37,300 Speaker 1: That's the hottest part of the river. And you'd have 491 00:27:37,340 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: to walk, like, it felt like a workout every morning. 492 00:27:40,060 --> 00:27:43,219 Speaker 1: You'd have to walk up to the food to get breakfast. 493 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,859 Speaker 1: So we'd all meet first at the river with our 494 00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:49,739 Speaker 1: cups and our tea. And we also boiled eggs and 495 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,070 Speaker 1: some people made ramen. And it was kind of, it's 496 00:27:52,109 --> 00:27:54,850 Speaker 1: an interesting, it's like a little community place right next 497 00:27:54,869 --> 00:27:59,290 Speaker 1: to the river. And it was really beautiful. So, yeah. 498 00:27:59,530 --> 00:28:02,250 Speaker 2: Like a naturally occurring hot pot sort of situation. 499 00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:06,180 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. The water is filtered through like a porous 500 00:28:06,260 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: rock under the ground. So that's the reason why it's 501 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:12,010 Speaker 1: like missing some of the stuff that other rivers would have. 502 00:28:12,050 --> 00:28:14,290 Speaker 1: But then on top of that, it's also so hot 503 00:28:14,350 --> 00:28:17,510 Speaker 1: that it kind of burns off any little critters that 504 00:28:17,530 --> 00:28:18,450 Speaker 1: would be living in the water. 505 00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:21,989 Speaker 2: Oh, wow. And so what's one that you cover in 506 00:28:22,030 --> 00:28:24,570 Speaker 2: the book that you haven't been to, but that would 507 00:28:24,609 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 2: be right at the top of your list if you 508 00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:28,699 Speaker 2: could do it? Like, no, you know, cost doesn't matter. 509 00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:32,100 Speaker 2: International politics doesn't matter. You just, you get to go 510 00:28:32,140 --> 00:28:33,129 Speaker 2: there and see it. What would it be? 511 00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:36,270 Speaker 1: The first thing that came to mind was the Strid 512 00:28:36,869 --> 00:28:40,100 Speaker 1: in England. It's kind of an iconic river because a 513 00:28:40,220 --> 00:28:42,220 Speaker 1: lot of times people, when they talk about like the 514 00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:45,390 Speaker 1: most deadly river in the world, You know, it would 515 00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:48,350 Speaker 1: probably logically be the Yellow River in China, which has 516 00:28:48,410 --> 00:28:51,850 Speaker 1: killed millions of people just by its insane floods. But 517 00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:55,170 Speaker 1: this river has kind of an iconic status as having 518 00:28:55,210 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: a 100% mortality rate. And oftentimes, if you fall into 519 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,100 Speaker 1: this river, your body will never be seen again because 520 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: it vanishes kind of beneath the surface. The River Wharf 521 00:29:07,420 --> 00:29:10,660 Speaker 1: starts at 30 feet across near the Bolton Abbey in Yorkshire. 522 00:29:11,470 --> 00:29:15,010 Speaker 1: And it funnels down the rock changes. So the actual 523 00:29:15,130 --> 00:29:18,410 Speaker 1: geology is really important here because the rock goes from 524 00:29:18,450 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: a hard rock that can't be eroded to a very 525 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,860 Speaker 1: soft rock that is very easily eroded. So the river 526 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: funnels down to like six feet across at its tightest point, 527 00:29:29,340 --> 00:29:31,350 Speaker 1: but with the same amount of water as what was 528 00:29:31,420 --> 00:29:36,810 Speaker 1: flowing in that 30 foot across area. And they kind 529 00:29:36,850 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: of compare it to the... have you ever heard of 530 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,590 Speaker 1: the slot canyons in the American Southwest? There are these 531 00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:48,750 Speaker 1: really deep canyons that have been formed by flooding water, 532 00:29:49,150 --> 00:29:51,170 Speaker 1: but they're usually dry when you go and you can 533 00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: go and hike in them. And that's kind of how 534 00:29:53,420 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: you imagine the strid looking beneath the water is that 535 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,190 Speaker 1: it's kind of this tight channel that's carved potentially a 536 00:30:01,350 --> 00:30:05,430 Speaker 1: couple hundred feet down in the ground, and it's flowing 537 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: extremely quickly. It's not maybe visually the most exciting thing 538 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,740 Speaker 1: in the world, but I feel like I just really 539 00:30:11,780 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: want to go out there and see it myself. I 540 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,380 Speaker 1: feel like it would be a really interesting trip. And 541 00:30:16,420 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: also there's all sorts of other stuff in England worth seeing. 542 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: I also included the River Ribble in my book as well, 543 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: and I'd love to just get out there to see that. 544 00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:31,930 Speaker 2: So the strid, the entry for this one is super good. 545 00:30:31,950 --> 00:30:33,090 Speaker 2: Like when I read it, I was like, I could 546 00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:36,370 Speaker 2: just ask about this river for the whole interview. This 547 00:30:36,430 --> 00:30:38,070 Speaker 2: is the one, right, with the story of the little 548 00:30:38,110 --> 00:30:38,910 Speaker 2: boy and the dog? 549 00:30:39,470 --> 00:30:39,710 Speaker 1: Yes. 550 00:30:40,220 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Am I remembering correctly? 551 00:30:41,860 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: William Romilly. Yeah. He's like kind of one of the 552 00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: legends of the strid. There's a few where you're like, 553 00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: is it... did this really happen or is this just 554 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: a legend? It's kind of hard to tell what's real 555 00:30:54,620 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: or not. But William Romilly was a little boy who 556 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,500 Speaker 1: was standing by the river with his dog, this greyhound. 557 00:31:01,380 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: And he had apparently jumped across this river many times 558 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,020 Speaker 1: in his childhood. And it was like something that he 559 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: went to play there many times. But this time the 560 00:31:11,260 --> 00:31:14,380 Speaker 1: dog refused to jump with him and checked him in 561 00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:17,610 Speaker 1: his leap. And as a result, he fell in and 562 00:31:17,650 --> 00:31:22,010 Speaker 1: the dog was just left on the rocks on the side. 563 00:31:22,390 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: And I think it was such an iconic, well, I 564 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: don't know if iconic is the right word, but it 565 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,100 Speaker 1: was such a striking image of this boy being lost 566 00:31:31,130 --> 00:31:33,380 Speaker 1: in the river that it was written by, it was 567 00:31:33,980 --> 00:31:37,420 Speaker 1: kind of immortalized in a poem about it, which kind 568 00:31:37,460 --> 00:31:43,900 Speaker 1: of gave it this legendary status and gave it the 569 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,050 Speaker 1: nickname The Strid as this idea of to stride across 570 00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:50,850 Speaker 1: or to try to get, to walk across the So, yeah, 571 00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:53,810 Speaker 1: and I think a painter was lost there, and people 572 00:31:53,850 --> 00:31:57,990 Speaker 1: have gotten caught in, like, unexpected flash floods and then 573 00:31:58,030 --> 00:32:00,230 Speaker 1: kind of gotten swept away into the strid as well. 574 00:32:00,790 --> 00:32:05,250 Speaker 1: So it has earned its legendary status as being, like, 575 00:32:05,950 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: extremely or 100% deadly. 576 00:32:08,380 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 2: Wow. Now, you mentioned other British waterways, and, of course, 577 00:32:13,140 --> 00:32:16,140 Speaker 2: you talk about the Thames a bit in this as well. 578 00:32:16,220 --> 00:32:18,930 Speaker 2: I was really... Struck by, you know, the part where 579 00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:21,500 Speaker 2: you talk about how it was previously declared, or at 580 00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 2: least parts of it were declared biologically dead. Yeah. That's 581 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 2: crazy to think about in terms of like things that 582 00:32:28,140 --> 00:32:31,250 Speaker 2: we have done to our rivers, especially close to large 583 00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:32,490 Speaker 2: metropolitan areas. 584 00:32:32,780 --> 00:32:36,220 Speaker 1: I think the Thames is interesting because it has such 585 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: a long history and it is just such a huge 586 00:32:42,140 --> 00:32:46,590 Speaker 1: part of the London identity that the fact that it 587 00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:50,650 Speaker 1: was biologically or ecologically dead was like shocking to people. 588 00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:53,330 Speaker 1: Like they really had never expected that. And because it's 589 00:32:53,390 --> 00:32:56,030 Speaker 1: a tidal river, you know, this was a river that 590 00:32:56,110 --> 00:32:59,780 Speaker 1: dolphins or like large sea animals would have kind of 591 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: made their way up the river over time because it's brackish. 592 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: And so to see it being like just with filled 593 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,060 Speaker 1: with dead fish, I think would have been a very 594 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: shocking idea, but it's not actually that rare. Unfortunately, you 595 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,540 Speaker 1: have a lot of rivers in the world that are 596 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: so choked by, um, pollution that they can't actually sustain life. 597 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about sections of like the Ganges River. And 598 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: even I think in here in the United States, I 599 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,550 Speaker 1: think the Potomac River and the Hudson have had their 600 00:33:34,620 --> 00:33:37,210 Speaker 1: own struggles as well as to making sure that we're 601 00:33:37,250 --> 00:33:41,350 Speaker 1: not dumping too much into those rivers because it really 602 00:33:41,410 --> 00:33:44,450 Speaker 1: chokes them out. But it took them a really long 603 00:33:44,490 --> 00:33:48,010 Speaker 1: time to recover the Thames. And even today, it still 604 00:33:48,050 --> 00:33:49,030 Speaker 1: struggles a little bit. 605 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: But it is inspiring, really, to know that, yeah, we 606 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 2: can actually begin to turn back the clock on some 607 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 2: of these waterways that we've brought so much damage to. 608 00:33:59,020 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. 609 00:34:00,940 --> 00:34:03,300 Speaker 2: All right. We're reaching the end of the interview here. 610 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: I want to make sure you have a chance here 611 00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 2: to just tell folks where they can follow you, where 612 00:34:08,780 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: online they can go on social media, your website and 613 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 2: so forth, so they can get into everything that you're 614 00:34:14,260 --> 00:34:15,900 Speaker 2: doing there in addition to picking up the book. 615 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: For sure. You can follow me on TikTok and Instagram 616 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,660 Speaker 1: and YouTube and Facebook at Geodesaurus, which is kind of a, 617 00:34:24,910 --> 00:34:28,130 Speaker 1: you know, something left over from the pandemic when I 618 00:34:28,170 --> 00:34:30,230 Speaker 1: didn't know this would be my career. But you can 619 00:34:30,250 --> 00:34:33,910 Speaker 1: also literally just look up Spooky Lakes on any of 620 00:34:33,969 --> 00:34:36,650 Speaker 1: those platforms and you're going to end up on my page, 621 00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:40,370 Speaker 1: especially during Spooky Lake Month. It's kind of something that 622 00:34:40,469 --> 00:34:42,969 Speaker 1: people often look for during this month. So those are 623 00:34:42,989 --> 00:34:43,670 Speaker 1: all my socials. 624 00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:47,859 Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, Gio, it's been a blast to chat with 625 00:34:47,890 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 2: you here. The new book, again, I'm going to hold 626 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 2: it up for folks who are watching on video. The 627 00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:56,219 Speaker 2: book is Spooky Rivers, 25 Strange and Mysterious Rivers That 628 00:34:56,260 --> 00:34:59,580 Speaker 2: Snake Across Our Planet. Out now, along with the first 629 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,050 Speaker 2: book in the Haunted Hydrology series, Spooky Lakes. And again, 630 00:35:04,050 --> 00:35:06,589 Speaker 2: check out all of these amazing videos that you're putting 631 00:35:06,670 --> 00:35:08,030 Speaker 2: out the entire month of October. 632 00:35:08,610 --> 00:35:09,770 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. 633 00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:16,100 Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on. Thanks once more to Gio Rutherford. 634 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,380 Speaker 2: The book, again, is Spooky Rivers, 25 Strange and Mysterious 635 00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:22,299 Speaker 2: Rivers that Snake Across Our Planet, and Spooky Lakes is 636 00:35:22,420 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 2: also out. I highly recommend them both. Thanks, as always, 637 00:35:26,820 --> 00:35:30,950 Speaker 2: to the excellent J.J. Possway for producing this episode, and 638 00:35:31,030 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 2: let's see if you want to reach out to us, 639 00:35:32,810 --> 00:35:35,529 Speaker 2: if you have suggestions for future episodes, and if there 640 00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:38,630 Speaker 2: are any particular authors or experts you think that I 641 00:35:38,730 --> 00:35:41,930 Speaker 2: should interview, well, just shoot us an email at contact 642 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 2: at stufftobuilyourmind.com. 643 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,109 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio. 644 00:35:54,489 --> 00:35:57,270 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. 645 00:35:57,650 --> 00:36:00,220 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.