WEBVTT - Explaining NIL with Matt Brown 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:07.280 Welcome to the solid verbal hull. For me, I'm a man, 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:08.119 I'm forty. 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:10.119 I've heard so many players say, well, I want to 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:12.080 be happy, you want to be happy for a day. 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:14.440 Edith Steak is that woo woof? 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:16.920 And them and Ty. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.160 Welcome back to the solid verbal boys, Girls, Monnyme's Ty 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.360 hilde Brandt that fine gentleman over there as always the 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:31.720 incomparable Dan Rubinstein is always the show here, driven by Geico, Sir, 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:33.000 how are you this fine day? 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:35.680 Couldn't be better? Couldn't be better? Took a shower for 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:37.480 the first time in a couple of days. The sun 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:41.279 is out. I'm leaving for the West Coast tomorrow as 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:41.880 we record. 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:43.360 There, There, it is, There, it is. 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:45.720 I found some pairs of shorts I haven't worn in 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.600 a long time. I hope that I can find shorts 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.159 for my older son, who I'm taking with me. I 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.480 just I'm in a good place, Tie, and I'm in 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.040 a good place because of today's episode two, because we 0:00:58.080 --> 0:00:59.520 are having a friend of the show and a friend 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.320 in general, and we haven't had him in a few months, 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.440 and I'm just excited to get in the weeds with 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:06.039 him as well. 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.880 Matt Brown he writes the Extra Points with Matt Brown newsletter. 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:15.200 He covers pretty much all things college football business related, 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.480 and Matt has seen this universe grow up in a 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:24.199 really big, really quick way, frankly because of NIL, because 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.480 of the implications with transfer portal, because of the implications 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.960 with coaching movement, because of everything that you always hear 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.800 about conference realignment. We're going to try and dissect the 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.080 small sliver of that on today's show. We want to 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.440 try and get in depth talk a little bit more 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.400 about NIL because, frankly, it's the kind of thing Dan 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.800 that we do this every day, even we don't fully 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.800 understand what the ramifications are where it's taking the sport. 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.160 One of the things we hear a lot is is 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.880 college football dying because of NIL. You hear some real 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.520 doom and gloom stuff with respect to NIL. We want 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:01.800 to try and talk to Matt Brown and get a 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.360 little bit more detail on what exactly is going on 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:06.160 in the weeds out there. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.280 It's very rare that you can find somebody who covers 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.280 the sport, who's into the sport, who knows all of 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.119 the rules, who knows all of the repercussions, who knows 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.239 all of the history. Who knows all of the possibilities. 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.560 Matt doesn't. I don't, you don't. Thatt just happens to 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.400 know more than us about this specific topic because this 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.480 is his beat. The business of college sports is his beat, 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:32.760 and our beat is what could we call Alan Lazard? 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.080 Yea in a funny way? What is a name that 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.480 we could come up with? Good or bad? What could 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:39.560 we call him? Because we love watching him catch balls 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.880 at names? I exactly, So I appreciate that we can 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.040 bring on somebody like Matt to answer that kind of question, 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:50.280 because nil, as you reference alluded to whatever. It's one 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.600 of those things where I think, because I am one 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.359 of the average college football fans, where you can say 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:58.840 what is nil? And you can say, oh, players can 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.320 make money off of their name and image and likeness, 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.920 and you know they have more freedom financially than ever before, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:05.480 and like, how does it work? 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:05.720 Like? 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.920 I don't know. I don't know who's in charge, I 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.040 don't know who's where's the money coming from? I don't 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:14.840 know are they taxed? I don't know. 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.320 We joked about it on the show we did on Tuesday. 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.560 If we want to sponsor an Instagram post? Yeah, I 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.280 think technically we could. I don't know how we would. 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:25.440 Maybe we can ask Matt. 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.040 It's definitely a new layer. If you've ever been to 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.200 like an old diner that has like the fourteen layer cake, Like, 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:32.440 I don't know if I can get through all that. 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:36.320 It's definitely a new layer in an already difficult sport 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.480 to follow day to day. Ty you know what I'm 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:39.960 talking about? Those German chocolate cakes. 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:40.600 I do. Yeah. 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:42.160 I don't know if those sing to you or if 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:43.480 those revolt you. I don't know. 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:45.120 Fourteen layers is a lot of layers. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.880 It's a lot of layers. I've seen Lasagnas that are 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.240 like deeply and densely layered. But it's something that we 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:52.880 talked about, and I want to ask Matt about too, 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.280 about what this does for kind of mainstream fandom, if 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.800 mainstream fandom even matters with college football, And I've made 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:02.760 the reference to you know, European soccer leagues and how 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.560 difficult they can be to be very into all the time. 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.680 I almost think it's similar to like, are you into 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.280 DC comics? Will you watch a Batman movie and be 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.480 like h There were some inconsistencies based on detective comics. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.760 Number forty four or like Bain actually doesn't have that 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:22.880 accent anymore. Like it's like it's a very much all 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.560 in situation that is very difficult to be all in 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.800 on all the time, and some people love, whether it's 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.400 comic books and movies and books and like these like 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.039 micro universes. College football is very much in college sports, 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:41.039 very much a micro universe that you need to be 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.840 both into, at peace with, and willing to do it 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.760 all the time. Because if you are an Oklahoma State fan, 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:52.960 if you're a Minnesota fan, if you're a North Carolina fan, 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.000 and you are a diehard, that means you know the 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.400 recruits they're targeting. It means you might know who their 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.520 analysts are. What's an analyst? I kind of know, but 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:03.640 I don't know if I can fully explain the day 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.320 to day of an analyst as opposed to an assistant coach. 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.440 So I'm just I'm glad we have This is a 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:11.680 long winded way of saying, I'm glad we have Matt 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.719 who can say here is my thing. And this is 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.120 as best as I can tell in this constantly evolving world. 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:19.120 How it works. 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:24.159 Extra points mb dot com is the url if you 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.920 want to go and check out what Matt has to offer. 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:28.560 I think we just jump in. 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:29.520 Let's do it. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.240 Don't forget. If you want to subscribe to the show, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.800 go on out to our website soliverbal dot com. You 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.240 can find all the links there. We would encourage you 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.919 to rate and review the show if you haven't already. 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.680 For Ballers dot com if you want, you can not 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.800 only get early access to this episode, will drop it 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.880 a day early, but you can also watch the video 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.640 that we'll record with Dan and myself and with Matt Brown. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.680 And last, but certainly not least, please do follow along 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:00.560 on social media with an important emphasis on some describing 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.479 to the YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash the 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:09.200 solid verbal. All right, Dan joining us now from extra 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.279 points with Matt Brown. It's the Matt Brown portion of 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.800 that title. Matt Brown, welcome back. 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.360 Thanks fella. That's always always great to be here. 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.520 How you been so things have taken off for you 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.239 with the newsletter, man. 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:25.680 I feel like I've been joking with my wife that 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:27.960 if we can just get through this next week, that 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.040 things will slow down and things go back to normal. 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:31.800 And it's been like that for like eighteen months. But 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.920 if you write about off the field stuff. It's been 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.720 one haymaker after another, and I've been really lucky that 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.360 like being able to write about just the nerdiest stuff 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:43.800 in college sports has grown enough of an audience to 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.680 really let me do this. It's been wonderful. You know what. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.200 By the way, you know what I like about Matt 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.839 Brown other than the fact that I just like Matt 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.839 Brown that he's a nice, smart person who works very 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:58.400 hard to inform people, is he has selected an element 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.520 of college sports and college football, and it's just like, 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.839 this is my corner, this is my thing, and a 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.080 lot of people, I mean, it's not just podcast, so 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.720 it's everybody. We're just like, I'm talking sports with my guys, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.000 and Matt's like, this is what interests me, this is 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:14.680 what I'm going to lock in on, and this is 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:17.160 what I'm going to become as as much of an 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.480 expert as possible in. And so I like that with restaurants, 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:22.640 I like that with humans, and so I like that 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.360 with of course people who cover sports. So that's that 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.000 to me, ty is what I love about having them. Yeah, 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.480 and not just that, I mean we're out here yelling 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:35.160 about is nil the end of college football? Matt's like, 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.560 I'm going to file a Foyer request. I'll get back 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:38.760 to you in a couple of weeks. 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:41.880 No, I had no idea when I got into this 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:43.400 world that I feel like I was going to end 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.920 up with eighteen credit hours and accounting and learned a 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.280 little a lot more about sports law and all this 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.240 stuff here. And you're right, I think part of that 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:54.400 just came out of the fact that, you know, my 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.440 blogging early days was Ohio State fan. There's like forty 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.360 five people on that beat. There's nothing interesting that I 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.680 can say, especially outside of Ohio, about Ohio States linebackers. 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.640 But I can talk to you about how states finances 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:10.960 or their contracts are other things. And then it turns 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.440 out that was interesting to me. And now I've learned 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.120 a lot about that kind of esoteric stuff. So like, listen, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:17.960 if you want to talk Patriot League, you want to 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.840 talk Nil, you want to talk some just like nitty stuff, 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:22.720 like I'm your hunckle Berry. I'm glad, like that's the 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.520 that's the thing I've learned how to do Huckleberry. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.960 All right, Well, look, why don't we start with Nil. 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:29.880 I think the last time that we had you on 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.280 it was before the season had kicked up. It was 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.560 before I quit the mysterious day job. So we've all 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.200 kind of been on this journey over the last year together. 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:45.080 Let me harken back to that kind of exaggerated question 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.760 that I reference at the beginning, is nil the end 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:49.640 of college football? 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.200 No? I don't. I don't think so at all. And 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.680 I'll tell you this. I feel like there's really two 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.480 different nil markets that are happening right now. There's the 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.720 NIL marketplace for primarily top three hundred college football players, 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.480 a top one hundred college basketball players, where that gets 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:10.080 written a lot through the eyes of college football assistant 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.600 coaches and as one marketplace, right and then you have 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.640 the nil marketplace for literally everybody else, because that marketplace 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:21.120 does exist for D one softball players and Division two 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:25.520 football players and D three everybody else's And what we're 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.240 seeing because we actually do have some heart and fast 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.800 data about this. We can look up compliance forms that 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.200 are sent to schools for athletes that do deals. We 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:36.280 have a general idea about how many athletes at a 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.720 given school have done any kind of deal, and we 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.160 know that at a place like Ohio State or Alabama 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.440 or Tennessee you know, around one out of four college 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.320 athletes across all other sports have done anything with NIL. 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.400 With football players, the percentages a little bit higher, and 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:52.960 we have to remember that some athletes, like international students, 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.840 can't do nil deals because that way to complicate their visa. 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:58.720 So maybe it's like maybe it's like a third. If 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.400 we look at eligible athletes at G five or one 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.160 Triple A schools, it might be twelve ten eight percent, 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:07.880 and it goes down farther from there. So if the 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.560 participations that low, I don't look at that as you know, 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.679 being a catastrophic anything on college football. And most of 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.319 the time, if someone's getting a thousand bucks or two 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.520 thousand bucks to go, you know, shill for candles on Instagram, 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.559 I think that's great, right. I think when we talk 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.800 to assistant coaches, and this is not to be disrespectful, 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.560 but it is in their interest to freak out about 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:35.440 every tiny little difference perceived or in actuality between their 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:37.400 program and any other program because they get paid set 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.520 under fifty grand to recruit and if somebody else has 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.479 something a little bit different from them, well that compromises 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:45.880 their ability, right, So it's in their interest to tell 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:47.440 reporters that have go outen in public and like this 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.480 is the wild West. This is changing everything. And you know, 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.120 for the kind of athlete that was going to get 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.920 a bagman deal anyway, you know, we're seeing that now. 0:10:55.920 --> 0:11:01.400 It's just a different text classification. But based on just 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:05.080 what we've seen so far, the impact that this has 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.120 had on roster management and roster construction in college football 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.880 in general, I think it's a little bit overstated. A 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:12.920 lot of the stuff that everyone's freaking out about now 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.160 that was still happening. I mean, I mean, Jimbo said 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.520 that that same thing, right We was always doing nil deals, 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.400 we just weren't always talking about them. That's been the 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.200 big difference right now is that now there's paperwork to 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.079 some of the stuff that's been going on for decades. 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.880 Yeah, and on top of that, there's the whole transfer rule. 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.440 And I'm curious to hear how you've combatd the question 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.320 of the end of the sport as we know it, 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.560 because there are two things that have been kind of 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.439 rolled into one conflated. You've obviously got nil legislation. More 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.560 guys are eligible to get money off their name, image 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.600 and likeness. That's what that stands for if anyone out 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.400 there is wondering what is nil? But you combine that 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:55.080 with transfer portal activity, and it feels like, suddenly we've 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.800 got this free agent marketing. College football guys are getting paid. 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:59.000 It's not what it used to be. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:01.520 YadA, YadA, YadA, the end of the sport as we 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:01.839 know it. 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.280 Yeah. So I do hear that sometimes, and I hear 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.760 that from fans, and sometimes they can hear that from administrators. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.040 So my first question to be, like, let's interrogate that 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.480 a little bit. What is it about an athlete getting 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.560 paid above the border are boldboard that makes you feel 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.520 like this isn't fun to watch? Like for me, I 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.640 like watching the football game on Saturday. I like making 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.199 jokes on Twitter with my friends. I like eating irresponsible 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:31.600 things in parking lots and being offered clear liquid in glasses. Right, 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.600 and none of that changes based on the tax situation 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.680 of anybody on the field. I can understand some frustration 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.800 with Hey, rosters are more transient now, and maybe I 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.680 don't know if that freshman that we signed is going 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:45.720 to be somebody that we see in two or three years. 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.840 That's been true for college sports other than college football. 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.040 For a while. One of the fun things about this 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:55.440 job has been learning about how recruiting and roster management, 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.400 all these things work in other sports. And to hear 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.960 volleyball coaches saying like, oh my gosh, people have been 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.600 tampering like hell for years, Like the AA volleyball coaches 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.640 are like the bagmen of that community, and people still 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.960 care about volleyball. So I look at that and think, like, 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.360 I get how that might make some people's lives more difficult, 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.040 but I don't think it fundamentally changes the experience of 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.240 what we like, and things evolve and change. I don't 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.120 think the way that roster management and nil and transfers 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.640 are looking now will be what they look like in 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.080 a couple of years. That market is going to reach 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.040 some kind of equilibrium a little bit. But if coach 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.560 is changing this quickly, hasn't ruined the sport for you. 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.680 Are school's changing conferences this quickly, right? I don't think 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.160 it should if a middle linebacker makes that same decision, 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.520 especially because you are probably going to benefit from that 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:42.280 as well. 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.120 Fair Enough, what don't we know at this point, because 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.160 as far as I can remember, the NCAA last summer said, Okay, 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.120 you are good to do this. Also, we're not doing 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.640 anything with it. We're not legislating things yet, we are 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.360 not overseeing it. And so there is this element and 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.480 you know, the term wild wild West is used a lot, 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.199 but like there was an articles today I think it 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.160 was David Ubben at the Athletic talking about like the 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:09.520 Tennessee Fan Collective putting together fifteen twenty twenty five million 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.920 dollars per recruiting class and putting it towards, you know, 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.280 getting star players paid because of their contributions to winning 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:21.520 and production, productivity, whatever on the field. So what is 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.280 their oversight? What is the oversight? What do contracts look like? 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.040 Who is looking at contracts? Is that person who is 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.480 looking at Hendon Hooker's contract from a car dealership somebody 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.720 who has the best interest of the car dealership, has 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.920 the best interest of this like third party like open 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.120 endorse so we're gonna help you like find endorsements and 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.520 everything like that. Is it an agent who's like, hey, 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.160 Hendon Hooker, I'm looking out for you. This looks out 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.400 for me. This is our deal. Like what is yet 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.440 to be written in terms of all of these new 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:57.240 business relationships with not amateurs in terms of amateur student athlete, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.400 but amateurs of the business world. 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.680 This is the biggest question, and it's something I have 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:05.720 a big trelot board here and like on my computer, 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.680 and there's like eight different stories kind of in process 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:10.800 of reporting looking through this because this is the big 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.760 question that I have, and I feel very confident that 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.600 we're going to see some stories first and these first 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:20.600 couple of months this year about athletes are getting some 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.720 unpleasant surprises from the IRS, particularly for the athletes that 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.640 took big expensive cars and not cash and not realizing 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.640 that those are taxable assets, and suddenly they owe, you know, 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.280 the IRS, nine thousand dollars because of that truck that 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.080 they then gave back because they transferred or did something else. 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:39.880 That's an issue because I can tell you those first 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:44.080 couple of months when nil deals were first happened July, August, September, 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.520 nobody really knew what they were doing. And by nobody, 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.080 I mean not just the athletes, the compliance officers and 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.040 a lot of the brands. A lot of the companies 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.800 that have been really heavily involved in this world have 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.040 never done influencer marketing before, so they don't really know 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.800 how to evaluate the success of an Instagram campaign. They 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:02.440 don't know how to price it, they don't know what 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:04.320 kind of contracts they have to offer. They just know 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.480 I want to help ol state you and which is fine. 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:09.320 And on one hand, I look at that and think 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.840 there's there's reason to be excited or optimistic because as 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.240 those local businesses learn more, that will mean more opportunities 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.840 for all football and all women's volleyball and soccer players 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.800 and people that that can benefit. But there's going to 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.920 be pickups. I have a lot of questions about these collectives. 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.360 I have a lot I have questions about how the 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.840 collectives themselves make money because some of them are pitching 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.080 themselves as completely nonprofit entities, which we'll see if the 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.600 IRS agrees. You know, that's stay tuned on extra points. 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.560 So as I saw, Heath Shuler is a Heath Shooler 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.440 is a consultant for the Tenet like also they have 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:44.120 a pain for. 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.920 Former Congressman He's right, yeah, for the tendency on Yeah, 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.400 agents were agents. What they typically do, right, they take five, ten, 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.360 fifteen percent of these kind of deals. And what I've 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.920 talked to from a lot of other agents working independently, 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.000 is I don't really want to be involved in the 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.560 college athlete and IL space because ten percent of a 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.480 two hundred and fifty dollars deal is nothing, and I 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.040 have to do an enormous amount of scale to do it. 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.080 And I can't require the athlete that's signing with me 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.240 at nineteen to still sign with me once they turned pro. 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.199 And that's been kind of the issue with the Sneaker universe, 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.880 right with basketball players. So if a lot of those 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.880 other agents aren't getting involved, I didn't realize this until 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.080 this year. Basically, for college, you can just declare yourself 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.359 an agent. Like I've talked to a lot of people 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:30.640 that were representing an athlete I was thinking of doing 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.719 a deal with I only to learn they were an 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.600 undergrad and that they're representing their dormmat and like they're twenty, 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:38.960 they haven't even finished Vermont yet, So like, okay, that 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:41.280 that changes the way that you and I work together. 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:44.840 So I would have some concerns, and I would have 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.399 some concerns. And this isn't This is not a criticism 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.800 of Dave's story or any these other stories. But if 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.480 we're writing about the NIL space and we the only 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.480 people were talking to are people who run collectives that 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.639 are like, Nope, my collective is giving out one hundred 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.560 bajillion dollars. And then we talked to somebody who's industry 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.919 benefits from people using these collectives, like yep, I'm the 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.840 CEO of Big Nil, and I looked at the numbers 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.520 and nils getting real big, and then we publish that 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.760 without maybe digging into can we confirm any of those numbers? 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.920 Are that deal that's being offered to the athlete actually happening? 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.400 How these people are making money? Like I got lots 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:21.520 of follow up questions, and it reminds me a little 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.400 bit of like crypto or maybe some other basic financial 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.480 instruments where maybe the cart's gotten out ahead of the 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.160 horse a little bit, and we we're not exactly sure 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:33.679 what's going to happen in a year or two in 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.639 terms of regulations or actually executing on the things that 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:37.320 we say that we're going. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:39.199 To do, you know what I mean totally? And so 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.760 what is where is the messiness coming from? 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:43.160 Now? 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.920 From the school's perspective, right, so you have the schools 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:51.240 who have students who are making money from outside entities, 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.639 and they themselves have nothing to do with things. But 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:59.640 also you're talking about schools who are with these athletes 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:05.479 all day, schools who could be seeing bad things happen 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.000 if a deal goes wrong, if it affects eligibility all, 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.359 Like what are the school's roles at this point? Like 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.360 they can say they're educating, but like there is this 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:20.040 like weird lack of accountability from the schools perspective. Do 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:24.120 you see that changing or adjusting? Like it's just very 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.600 strange that. And I am somebody who likes that players 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:29.600 are making money from their name, image and likeness, but 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.640 it's very strange that, like college football is a major 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:34.719 sport and yet the schools have nothing to do with 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.119 the income of their best players. 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:38.480 Yeah, as the. 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.359 NHL like all these like we have governing bodies that 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.320 oversee everything, and schools are like, you know, whatever happens happens. 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.840 It's kind of the worst case scenario, I think in 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.000 a couple of different ways, right, And I've talked to 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.399 some bigger schools that say, you know, even if we 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.800 change state law that allows us to like actually proactively 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:58.560 go after and try to book some of these deals, 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:00.840 we're not gonna want to do it because we don't 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.960 want that liability, especially because maybe not every company that 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.960 wants to aggressively get involved in this space is on 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.879 the level. Right. So if you're Ohio State and you 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.600 book a deal with Jerry's you know, truck company dealership, 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.560 and that dealership goes belly up or get sued or 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.280 something bad happens as some oh issue is liable, then 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:24.439 don't want that. But you're kind of still doing that 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:26.720 right now without you're right at that level of oversight. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.320 I can tell you here's here's another major thing that 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.080 I hear a lot, because so much of the people 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.600 that I talk to are mid majors or maybe D 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.040 one schools that don't have football programs. Like let's say 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:39.399 if we're you know, a Patriot legue team. Let's say 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:41.879 let's say we're Lafayette, and they might sit down there 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:43.719 and talk to their athletes, and you're gonna have athletes 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.560 at Lafayette who could make nil money, probably not one 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.200 hundred thousand dollars unless there's somebody who's really good at twitch, 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.560 but people who generates the value. But Lafayette, and this 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:54.640 is just an example. You know, don't if you don't, 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.280 don't yell at me or if those specifics are wrong. 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.000 But Lafia, it's probably got like one and a half 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.840 compliance people, a couple of grad assistants helping them in 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.360 that department. They're gonna have two or three sports information 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.480 people and some grad assistants, so they're gonna I mean 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:09.040 like people at those kind of schools will tell me 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.000 I literally don't have the capacity to do more about 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:16.120 nil than say, we did this deal with influencer open doors, 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.639 so we have the compliance stuff. Here's a couple of 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.679 videos you can watch about Instagram. Please don't do a 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:23.840 deal with the porn company. Please don't deal a deal 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.320 that's going to embarrass me. And you're on your own, 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.359 and there's gonna be a couple of very entrepreneurial minded 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.119 people that will jump into that, and other people are like, 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.000 I have no idea even where to start, and so 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.239 they don't. And I look at that and think, well, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.879 that's too bad, not just because you're missing out on money, 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.560 but you're missing out on building a professional network and 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.200 learning about industries. That's really hard to do when you're 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.879 a college athlete, which I think people forget sometimes because 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.000 it's not like you can if you're playing d one 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:51.960 basketball that you can just say, all right, hey, i'm 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:53.680 studying abroad, I'm going to go to Italy, I'll see 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.480 you in four months, or I'm doing this internship now 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.480 with Goldman because you got to lift weights and do 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:01.040 stuff for twin tenty five hours a week, so you 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.479 don't get that same college experience. Going in doing nil 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.760 deals gives you an opportunity to be exposed to some 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.160 of that and the lack of resources for smaller schools 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.159 is one of the big pain points for the bigger schools. 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:17.080 That's the pain point Dan, for exactly what I think 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:20.400 you're explaining, and then they hear their regents and their 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.199 boosters and their fans say, listen, I looked on the 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:25.960 message boards here and sliced bread says that somebody in 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.680 other school has given that ten million dollars. What are 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:32.560 we doing and we can't and there's incentives to maybe 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.960 do stuff outside the lines. It's a difficult position to 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:38.760 be and if you have that kind of booster community. 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.720 How universal is state law at this point, because we 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:45.240 recently saw a story about Florida State feeling like they're 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.600 falling behind because of what they're unable to do within 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.960 the state of Florida. So how universal is state law 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.720 in terms of paying influencers, you know, using name, image 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:59.560 and likeness among students, whatever. And how universal is the 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.439 willingness or I don't know what my like my English 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.040 is here, but how universal is the willingness of schools 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:09.600 to part with trademarks? So an Alabama logo a us 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:11.639 C logo. I had seen that that was sort of 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:13.280 a hang up with Caleb Williams as he was trying 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:15.000 to figure out where he wanted to go. That USC 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:19.000 isn't especially fond of parting with its own trademarks for 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:22.840 other people to use unless they are Nike or what, 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:25.080 you know what, unless it's a deal like that. So 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.679 how universal is the willingness on the state level and 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:32.920 the universe and the willingness on the university level from 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:34.320 a trademark perspective. 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.879 This is a great question and it's a really important one, 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:41.320 and the answer is not even close to at all? Right, 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:45.399 I figured, yeah, so not I don't want to be 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:47.880 like explicitly partisan here or anything, but I can tell 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.840 you that most of the state lawmakers last year that 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:56.080 were most involved in crafting NIL bills had no idea 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.520 what they were doing do not follow college athletics are 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:01.840 not aware of any of the issues in that world. 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:04.600 They were doing it because they're boosters and their voters 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:06.560 were saying, you know, state US going to fall behind, 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:08.239 so we have to do this really quickly. And then 0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:10.639 they realized in six months that maybe they made some mistakes, 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.160 and that's so you're seeing one. Not every state did 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:17.720 one of these at all. Indiana, Utah, I want to say, 0:24:17.720 --> 0:24:22.080 Wisconsin had none, and some commentators have argued that actually 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:24.320 put them at an advantage. It's not an accident that 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:27.360 BYU was one of the first schools to do wide, 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:30.560 you know, broad based deals for not just all of 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:31.960 their walk ons, but I think all of their women 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:34.240 athletes have something so like and their law let them 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:36.480 do that. So you have some places where you have 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:39.760 more restrictive laws, and there's a push to change that, 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:43.320 particularly in the South, with Florida, with Mississippi, with Georgia. 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:47.960 You have some places where the law is hilariously you know, 0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:50.400 poorly written, and that has nothing to do with enforcement 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:53.199 and it's just kind of there. You have some places 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:55.720 where states the state legislator only meets like once every 0:24:55.760 --> 0:24:58.520 other year or it meets for six weeks and they 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:00.640 have other things going on, as you man I'd expect, 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:03.399 and so nothing's really happening there. So there's there is 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:06.399 not even close to certainty. And this is why the 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.200 nc double A and why are one of the reasons 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:11.080 why the NCUBA are many ads are saying we need 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:13.920 a federal law, and that's that's you know, that's that's 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:16.080 kind of a different conversation. And then with the trademark thing, 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:18.680 you're right too, there are smaller schools that don't care, 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:20.760 and even a couple of big schools that don't care. 0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:24.440 Mi Alma Mater Ohio State probably employs more trademark lawyers 0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:27.120 who are like aggressively going after this. Then a lot 0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:30.640 of other schools have like athletic trainers, right like if I, 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:35.080 if I uh pronounce the incorrectly on this podcast, I 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:37.320 might get a letter to Mike my po box. So 0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:41.399 that's that's a big issue for many schools. Licensing and 0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:44.080 sponsorship is a big revenue source and if they don't 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:46.960 aggressively protect that IP if Texas A and M doesn't 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:49.639 suit anybody that thinks about the number twelve, then they 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:52.680 lose that. And we'll see if that becomes an issue 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:56.280 in recruiting. My guess is probably not that much, but 0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:58.440 it is an issue, and what kind of nil deals 0:25:58.440 --> 0:26:00.520 you can do. The last thing I think I would 0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:04.240 say is, despite hesitancy about copyrights, we haven't seen anybody 0:26:04.320 --> 0:26:07.159 yet any school actually try to take punitive action on 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:10.760 an athlete because the deal that they did. I could tell, 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:12.520 you know, beginning in the beginning of this process, a 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:15.680 lot of compliance teams and honestly still now expressed a 0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:19.600 lot of apprehension about their athletes becoming barstool athletes or 0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:23.760 doing gilts at barstool because it's because of their connection 0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:26.639 with gambling, and many state laws said don't do that. 0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:30.440 But nobody really, you know, made an athlete, to the 0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:34.280 best of my knowledge, terminate that deal or actually remove 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:36.480 their eligibility. They may have educated them, they may have 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:39.359 said please don't do this, they may have talked about it, 0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:41.000 but I don't think anyone's been willing to actually put 0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:43.840 the hammer down. And that's going to be true. I 0:26:43.880 --> 0:26:46.880 think as other athletes kind of push the envelope as 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:49.520 to what is permitted. I mean, if you were somebody 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:51.359 that did a deal with the sportsbook, right now and 0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:54.360 your school said no, if you're good enough, I don't 0:26:54.359 --> 0:26:56.679 know anyone's going to tell you not to write like 0:26:56.760 --> 0:26:59.960 you have to do something absolutely outlandish to really get 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:01.960 I think in trouble right now, you know what I mean. 0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:05.760 One of the things that Dan and I have been 0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:10.520 thinking about a lot is perhaps this other I almost 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:12.800 want to call it a don't look up moment where 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:16.400 we know that EA Sports wants to make the video game. 0:27:16.960 --> 0:27:20.040 We know that pretty much every college wants to be 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:22.560 part of that video game. We also know that now 0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:25.600 because of new rules, players can benefit in some regard 0:27:25.680 --> 0:27:29.240 from that. The don't look up moment, though, is how. 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:30.040 Do they benefit from that? 0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:34.800 And who coordinates the benefits that they receive from that 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:37.840 purported video game. Where I'm going with this is where 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:40.960 are we at with regard to a player's association, some 0:27:41.080 --> 0:27:44.760 sort of player union? Is it the kind of thing 0:27:44.800 --> 0:27:48.359 Matt where players can buy in when they start playing 0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:51.080 at the collegiate level and then they're just part of 0:27:51.119 --> 0:27:54.199 this thing? Do you foresee any sort of group with 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:59.399 oversight applying to specific benefits, specific circumstances and not the 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.000 whole sha? Where are we at with that movement? 0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:05.880 So? This is a really good question. Let me answer 0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:08.640 the video game part first, and then we can talk 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:11.400 about because you actually hit on something that's a gigantic deal. 0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:14.800 I was actually just talking to somebody at a sports 0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:18.080 like literally before we recorded today. I can tell you 0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:22.040 that there is a lot of optimism on their side 0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:24.240 that when the game is released next year, it will 0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:28.040 include player likenesses. And the reason for that is over 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:31.600 the last several months, many schools, mostly P five schools, 0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:33.960 but some G five schools too, have begun to set 0:28:34.040 --> 0:28:36.000 up group licensing programs. I think a lot of them 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:38.200 are working with a company called the Brander Group brand 0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:40.760 our group, which does group licensing, I want to say 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:44.560 for like the WNBAPA and some other professional associations. And 0:28:44.560 --> 0:28:47.080 the way that's set up now is an athlete voluntarily 0:28:47.120 --> 0:28:49.080 opts in. It's not required. You can do it as 0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:52.080 soon as you enroll, and that gives the school permission 0:28:52.120 --> 0:28:55.760 to make jerseys with your name on them or do 0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:58.000 other digital products with your name on them, and then 0:28:58.120 --> 0:29:01.920 you get a percentage of of that revenue. It's not 0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:04.840 like a union where maybe you could collectively bargain and 0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:07.840 argue over that particular percentage. So it's not the same thing, 0:29:07.880 --> 0:29:09.600 but now you have an end where you can do that. 0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:11.800 And now we are getting to the point where so 0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:14.560 many schools are opting into those deals with this one 0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:18.120 company that theoretically Brandar could then go to EA and say, 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:21.920 I have the NILS for football players at eighty schools. 0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:24.560 Let's do a deal where that EA Sports would then 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.760 pay every one of those athletes. I would I would 0:29:27.800 --> 0:29:30.400 say probably the in the mid to high four figures 0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:33.000 to appear in this game, and then potentially a percentage 0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:36.960 for future DLCs if you're involved, and I think every 0:29:37.560 --> 0:29:39.640 college football player be thrilled to do that. And then 0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:41.400 once that happens, then you would be a system where 0:29:41.440 --> 0:29:43.880 athletes could opt in at their individual school and I 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:47.080 would honestly expect some kind of announcement on that front 0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:51.840 by this summer. Wow, that's that's where the wheels are 0:29:52.080 --> 0:29:55.480 turning on there. So there's a lot of optimism on 0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:57.480 the video game, but that's going to happen. And also 0:29:57.880 --> 0:29:59.680 if that doesn't happen, notre name is not going to 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:01.720 be in the game, like Northwestern is not going to 0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:04.520 be in the game. I think probably ten schools won't 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:06.880 be in the game, but it's going to happen. The 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:10.520 other question, though, is a much much bigger, really existential 0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:12.920 question about are we're going to have a union. And 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:15.920 right now there can't be an athlete union because legally 0:30:16.080 --> 0:30:18.840 college athletes are not employees. You have to you have 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:21.320 to be an employee before you can unionize, and that 0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:25.280 may change. That may change because the NLRB, the organization 0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:28.000 that ruled in favor of Northwestern, has based like the 0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:29.840 head of that is basically put out an all points 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:32.200 bulletin saying that would be a great time for an 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:36.840 athlete to say to file a complaint, and athletes right 0:30:36.840 --> 0:30:41.000 now haven't. But two athletes rights organizations, one in California 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:43.760 and what one I believe in Minnesota have filed those complaints. 0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:46.640 So that takes eighteen months basically for that to happen, 0:30:46.720 --> 0:30:50.560 but it could. The federal court system is looking at 0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:53.720 a case right now, it's called the Johnson case dealing 0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:56.880 with Villanova of all places that are saying that we 0:30:57.040 --> 0:31:02.080 deserve to be classified as AES and so the federal courts, 0:31:02.080 --> 0:31:04.320 whether that's the Supreme Court or district court might rule that. 0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:08.240 So once that happens, then we could see another union drive, 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.080 and then down the road we could have a player's 0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:13.640 union who that could collectively bargain not just about the 0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:17.160 video game or about jerseys, but also about health insurance 0:31:17.680 --> 0:31:20.840 or base salaries or COVID or any of those other things. 0:31:21.640 --> 0:31:24.680 I think there's some level of wish casting among certain 0:31:24.720 --> 0:31:29.040 elements in both college sports media and college sports academia 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:31.160 that are like, this is going to happen tomorrow, and 0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:33.320 regardless whether you think it's a good idea or not, 0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:35.760 like I can tell you it's not happening tomorrow, and 0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:38.600 I would put my money on the next union drive 0:31:38.680 --> 0:31:42.120 in college football failing before it is successful. But there's 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:44.880 a good chance eventually this will happen and we'll have 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:46.400 that set up like we do in the pros. 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.880 My other question with regard to that, Matt, where does 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:52.280 this go next? So we know about the video game, 0:31:52.320 --> 0:31:56.640 you mentioned, jersey sales, things of that nature, but my hunches, 0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:00.200 and maybe this is wish casting as well, that the 0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:03.640 longer we go on in a world with NIL, the 0:32:03.640 --> 0:32:06.600 more that sphere of influence will grow or will test 0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:09.400 the boundaries to see what it can get its hands on. 0:32:09.680 --> 0:32:12.920 Where do you see NIL going next? With respect to 0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:19.160 players getting benefits financial otherwise from things like jersey sales 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:22.720 or other products that maybe weren't even in the equation 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:25.400 when we started talking about this thing a year plus ago. 0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:29.040 Yeah, I think there's two places where it can still 0:32:29.080 --> 0:32:32.760 grow a ton. Right now, we talk about nil, we're 0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:35.760 usually talking about social media endorsements. You know, if somebody 0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:38.360 throwing something on Instagram or TikTok, or maybe going to 0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:41.640 the local fireworks store and like signing autographs, which is cool, 0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:46.560 but you do need to have a certain size social 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:49.320 media account to really be able to do that profitably. 0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.480 It's a probably five figures. Not everybody has that, but 0:32:52.600 --> 0:32:56.040 every single college athlete, whether you start or you're on 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:57.320 the bench, or you at a big school or a 0:32:57.320 --> 0:33:00.480 small school, you're an expert in that sport in one place. 0:33:00.520 --> 0:33:02.720 That's just been kind of like in its baby steps, 0:33:02.760 --> 0:33:04.200 But I really do think we'll grow in the next 0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:07.000 year or two. Are athletes making money running summer camps 0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:09.680 and giving lessons and being involved with high schools and 0:33:09.720 --> 0:33:12.719 club sports and AAU and going back to their hometowns. 0:33:12.960 --> 0:33:15.560 It's already a huge deal in a lot of Olympic sports, 0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:19.400 particularly swimming. College swim coaches generally get paid like crap, 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:23.080 and a lot of them, especially assistants, basically make enough 0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:25.040 money off the summer camp circuit to allow them to 0:33:25.080 --> 0:33:27.479 continue to stay in college. I think players are going 0:33:27.520 --> 0:33:29.880 to get involved in that space right now too. There's 0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:31.800 a lot of market places to make finding an Instagram 0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:34.520 deal pretty quick and easy, and that doesn't exist right 0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:38.160 now for doing camp clinics. But that is a place 0:33:38.200 --> 0:33:41.880 I think could really grow a lot. Maybe a running 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:43.840 back brings this whole running back room to the local 0:33:43.960 --> 0:33:47.400 high school and participates in two a days with them 0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:49.640 and makes a thousand bucks for it. Like that's I 0:33:49.640 --> 0:33:52.440 think that will continue to grow. The other place here 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:56.160 is in the group licensing world. You're right, Ti, I 0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:59.080 think companies are trying to figure out what else makes 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:03.680 sense eide jerseys or besides a peril for athletes to 0:34:03.680 --> 0:34:07.120 be involved in. And if you look at my PR box, 0:34:07.640 --> 0:34:09.400 well it's n ft s right, it's going to be 0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:13.120 digital goods. And I think I'm much more skeptical of that. 0:34:13.480 --> 0:34:17.120 But I could definitely see before, maybe before we get 0:34:17.120 --> 0:34:20.719 EA sports college basketball or college baseball, I could see 0:34:20.760 --> 0:34:25.040 a college football like mobile simulator game that has player 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:27.600 likenesses or something that's not a Triple A sports title 0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:30.759 that goes directly to iPhone or Android, or maybe just 0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:34.359 to Steam that uses player likenesses. And I think that 0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:37.680 that once it becomes less expensive to kind of experiment 0:34:37.719 --> 0:34:39.600 with those kind of products, that is a world where 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:41.200 you might see as well, not so much NFT, but 0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:46.920 maybe gamings or more traditional collectibles that athletes can be 0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:47.400 involved in. 0:34:48.239 --> 0:34:51.600 Where does this go with regard to governing bodies, because, 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:54.600 as you mentioned, with the group licensing, you're negotiating with 0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:58.120 EA Sports, you're negotiating with a different company, and that's 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:01.840 an acceptable company. We've seen obvious schools and conferences partner 0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:04.279 with the A Sports. Everybody seems to be happy with 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:08.640 that type of association. But if you look at Olympic sports, 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:11.960 there are specific governing bodies for specific sports. You know, 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:14.480 there's United States Track and Field, there's United States Swimming. 0:35:14.480 --> 0:35:17.600 There's then of course the United States Olympic Committee. Whatever 0:35:17.640 --> 0:35:21.719 they're associations, it's by sport, it's by governing body. It's 0:35:21.760 --> 0:35:24.279 specific to the sport and the needs and the types 0:35:24.320 --> 0:35:27.359 of athletes that play that sport. We don't have that. 0:35:27.400 --> 0:35:30.560 We have conferences that oversee scheduling in TV rights. That's 0:35:30.560 --> 0:35:33.239 an oversimplification, but it's a major part of what they do. 0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:37.520 We have the NCAA, which enforces eligibility and sets the 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:40.640 rules of eligibility, which seems to be growing more and 0:35:40.680 --> 0:35:43.319 more like a dinosaur by the day. What is the 0:35:43.360 --> 0:35:48.719 future of sports specific governing bodies, the way conferences operate 0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:52.000 and the way the sport as a whole. If we 0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:55.799 are negotiating national TV deals, is there going to be 0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:58.799 more and more of a national governing body specific to 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.960 Because this is a foot ball show football, what is 0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:06.800 the status of the organization of the sport and sports? 0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:10.360 Yeah, I mean this is probably the single biggest story 0:36:10.400 --> 0:36:13.560 outside of maybe nil that I'm writing about on extra points, 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:17.400 I think this summer. Your listeners may be aware that 0:36:17.480 --> 0:36:20.239 a few weeks ago at the NCAA convention in Indianapolis, 0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:23.799 member schools approved the new constitution right where a lot 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:26.400 of stuff was written about that. But the new constitution 0:36:26.440 --> 0:36:29.840 itself doesn't change a whole lot other than delegate a 0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:33.279 lot of authority to specific divisions. So all of the 0:36:33.360 --> 0:36:36.040 NCAA bylaws that you might be familiar with from this 0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:38.000 is what it takes to be a conference to this 0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:39.799 is the amount of cream cheese you can put on 0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:42.279 your bagel and all of those different things. That's all 0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:45.000 being nuked. And they're saying, D one, make your own. 0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:48.279 And many of the Power five schools are saying, we 0:36:48.320 --> 0:36:51.600 want more autonomy, which means money, and we want more 0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:55.319 championship access which means money in the current system too. 0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:58.400 And I am someone that still really thinks a formal 0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:02.120 P five split is unlikely based on the conversations I've had, 0:37:02.160 --> 0:37:04.279 and if it did, it wouldn't be a straight P 0:37:04.360 --> 0:37:05.960 five G five thing. There's going to be P fives 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:07.600 that wouldn't want to do it, in G fives that would. 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:11.680 But that does at the table. It does give the 0:37:11.680 --> 0:37:15.399 Division one a ton more flexibility to blow up how 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:17.600 they've organized their sports in a bunch of different ways. 0:37:17.640 --> 0:37:20.239 So we could very much see a world where a 0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:23.600 college track and field is more regulated by US Track 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:26.480 than it is the NCAA or Division one. We could 0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:30.600 have different conferences have different scholarship rules for different Olympic sports. 0:37:31.080 --> 0:37:33.439 The SEC in particular would love this because they want 0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:36.960 to give every single softball player the scholarship. They have 0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:38.480 the money, they don't want that to be a partial 0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:40.680 thing anymore. There are PAC twelve schools that want that 0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:42.800 same thing. There's a lot of division. One that says 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:45.880 that literally defeats the point of us having a softball program. 0:37:45.880 --> 0:37:48.279 We're only doing this for tuition. There's no chance we 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:49.440 would want to be able to do that even if 0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:53.279 we had the money. This is what's happening with the 0:37:53.280 --> 0:37:56.680 team specific stuff. Is fascinating because you get it now 0:37:56.680 --> 0:37:58.520 that I've been writing about this a lot. I think 0:37:58.520 --> 0:38:00.000 you get an idea for which one of those those 0:38:00.000 --> 0:38:03.520 team specific organizations are invested in college athletics, like I 0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:06.520 think US wrestling is an example where they really are 0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:09.040 because they recognize that that's my Olympic pipeline and these 0:38:09.040 --> 0:38:10.960 are the sports that are threatened, so we want to 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.880 be heavily involved. And then there's US soccer, which historically 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:17.000 is not very involved to the best of my knowledge, 0:38:17.200 --> 0:38:19.840 in the college world. So those things are going to evolve, 0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:22.560 and I think how football is governed is going to change. 0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:25.960 It's going to change a lot from more rules being 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:29.040 given to conferences. We could see a system I think 0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:34.319 where the college football Playoff has a lot more like 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:38.239 regulatory influence over schools are rather mean that just gets 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:38.839 moved out of the NS. 0:38:38.920 --> 0:38:41.279 How many employees does the college Football Playoff have? 0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:43.840 That's a great question, that's a great ques. Do you 0:38:43.840 --> 0:38:44.480 know six? 0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:47.120 I don't know. My assumption is it's not more than 0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:48.120 probably twelve. 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:50.880 No, I don't think it's very much many. EGI this 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:54.319 is a source of frustration with so many schools, Like, look, 0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:57.640 college football Playoff gets all the money, but when we 0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:01.520 got to investigate somebody's eligibility, and that's Indianapolis, Like, that's 0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:04.440 all that stuff is paid for by a different pool. 0:39:04.560 --> 0:39:07.560 So that is all going to change. And the best 0:39:07.600 --> 0:39:09.880 I can tell you right now is nobody knows the 0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:13.320 answer yet, including ads and people that you would expect 0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:14.840 you know the answer. And if we went up and 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:18.040 grabbed grabbed Greg Sank and grabbed you know, Julie from 0:39:18.040 --> 0:39:21.560 Ohio University, the two chairs of the Transformation Committee, I 0:39:21.600 --> 0:39:24.360 don't think they know yet either, which is both exciting 0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:29.359 and probably scary because because there's some gigantic questions, really 0:39:29.400 --> 0:39:33.600 acrimonious questions. Sure that nobody knows yet, they can have 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:36.120 some educated guesses, and I have a couple of educated guesses. 0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:38.640 I think what it'll look like, but nobody really knows for. 0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:42.040 Certain yet how standardized And I assume your answer is 0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:46.359 going to be not very but how standardized is the 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:50.280 P five level the G five level? Financially in pro sports, 0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:53.480 we have there's an understanding and then there are explicitly 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:56.920 written rules. Hi, your salary floor is sixty million dollars. 0:39:57.160 --> 0:39:59.600 You need to pay your players at least sixty million 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:03.560 dollars per season. You need to have a practice facility, 0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:05.239 Like there are certain things where if you are the 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:08.800 Los Angeles Clippers, if you are the Calgary Flames, whatever, 0:40:09.040 --> 0:40:12.600 there are standardized elements to how you run your organization. 0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:15.080 As we look across college football, and this is a 0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:17.720 conversation Tyan I have, it's like, this is a program 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.720 that's unserious about winning. They're unserious about becoming that about 0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:23.840 winning in the Big ten, they're unserious about winning in 0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:26.480 the acc that they're to collect a check. They're there 0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:29.680 because they're big enough, but like they're not spending on coaches, 0:40:29.719 --> 0:40:32.360 they're not spending on facilities, they're not spending on recruiting, 0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:35.400 and it just seems like there are certain programs that 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:38.399 are just financial doormats, like they're there to make money 0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:40.359 and they're not there to compete where it seems that 0:40:40.440 --> 0:40:42.080 for the most part, and I know tanking is now 0:40:42.080 --> 0:40:44.719 a thing in professional sports and whatever. Are we going 0:40:44.760 --> 0:40:47.400 to get to a standardized financial level where we're going 0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:50.480 to say, you know what school A school B, you're 0:40:50.520 --> 0:40:52.880 not investing in your program, you are not trying to 0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:55.279 compete on a level in which and it's hard for 0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:58.080 a lot of these places. Is there are we going 0:40:58.120 --> 0:41:01.960 down a standardization path as the sport reorganizes. 0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:05.840 This is something I think many schools would like to 0:41:05.880 --> 0:41:08.720 answer your first question. For Division one, there are supposed 0:41:08.760 --> 0:41:11.359 to be some very basic benchmarks that a school has 0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:13.320 to be in compliance to be a D one school. 0:41:13.400 --> 0:41:15.400 And like for football, it's like you're supposed to have 0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:19.680 a stadium that's xcis you need to have attendance of 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:21.760 a certain number over a couple of years, and nobody 0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:23.400 follows that rule. Like if we win to by the 0:41:23.800 --> 0:41:26.640 letter of the rule, the MAC as a conference would 0:41:26.640 --> 0:41:29.680 not be like FBS anymore. That everyone gets waivers and 0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:32.000 they make up their attendance stuff right, And there's some 0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:37.200 frustration about that, but there's also we can't necessarily pick 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:39.359 and choose what schools will be in the highest level 0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:42.279 without risking being sued. So one thing you could see 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:44.600 as a standardization tool A couple of ads that have 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.040 floated this would be, if you want to be FBS 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:49.400 or you want to be like the highest level of 0:41:49.440 --> 0:41:52.560 college football, you have to sponsor twenty three sports or 0:41:52.600 --> 0:41:54.719 twenty two sports and use that as a proxy for 0:41:55.080 --> 0:41:57.239 your athletic department must be doing X, Y or C, 0:41:57.400 --> 0:41:59.680 and you would have to have X number of paid 0:41:59.719 --> 0:42:03.479 staff and you can voluntarily jump in and not You're 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:06.279 You're right there. The biggest gap, honestly, I think it 0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:09.640 might really be between the very bottom of Division one 0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:12.480 and like a high level mid major, like a what 0:42:12.560 --> 0:42:17.240 a Missouri Valley basketball team is doing versus a bottom 0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:21.400 level WHACK or Big South or HBCU right now financially 0:42:21.960 --> 0:42:25.160 is enormous. There are some college facilities that are probably 0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:26.960 worse than where either of you went to high school, 0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:30.000 and and and like that. Then you have the gap 0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:32.839 between a Houston and an ECU, and like Ohio State 0:42:32.880 --> 0:42:36.320 and Alabama, and even within the P five, like I 0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:37.840 think we can all agree, you're right, there are some 0:42:37.960 --> 0:42:41.680 schools that are willing to make different financial commitments. And 0:42:41.719 --> 0:42:45.480 then there are schools that you're right, are riding on inertia, 0:42:45.560 --> 0:42:47.920 like what Rutgers is able to do financially despite being 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.200 in the Big Ten. It's not the same sport. And 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:52.640 you're right like that, that is a question at all 0:42:52.760 --> 0:42:55.640 levels of college football is being asked. Why does it 0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:57.839 make sense if we're clearly not on the same page 0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:01.480 here of resource wise or a wise, for us to 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:04.759 be in the same boat, And like that's figuring out 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:06.839 the best way to draw that line will be one 0:43:06.880 --> 0:43:08.360 of those contentious issues for sure. 0:43:08.840 --> 0:43:12.520 So what is your your twenty thirty college sports utopia 0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:13.400 look like? 0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:13.879 Right? 0:43:14.000 --> 0:43:16.839 Is it an organizational thing? Is it a financial thing? 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:21.160 Like in your mind if if we're sitting and having 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:25.400 this conversation in eight years and ties in his early fifties, 0:43:25.520 --> 0:43:27.359 I don't know how, I don't know, I don't know 0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:28.920 how old we're all going to be. But if we're 0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:34.000 having this conversation eight ten, twelve, yes, yeah, and you're 0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:36.600 on this show. The hologram of Matt Brown is on 0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:39.600 this show saying, Man, they nailed A, B, C, D 0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:41.560 and E. What are those things? 0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:44.480 Man? That's that's a great question, and part of that 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:46.360 I have to recognize I'm coming at this from a 0:43:46.360 --> 0:43:48.879 different perspective, right, So one of the things that would 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:52.840 be important to me would be that athletic spending becomes 0:43:52.880 --> 0:43:56.360 more aligned with an institutional goal. So by that, I mean, like, 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:58.040 we don't see this a ton at the P five, 0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:02.320 but we have schools in one that are commuter schools 0:44:02.680 --> 0:44:06.399 that are serving mostly non traditional students. So a fry 0:44:06.400 --> 0:44:09.200 school like Portland State, right, you know, that's go Vikings, 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:12.920 Go Vikings. Cool history of a program one, they're facing 0:44:12.960 --> 0:44:14.640 some struggles right now. But I want to say the 0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:16.759 average age of Portland State students like twenty six or 0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:19.600 twenty seven. And so if you're supposed to be serving 0:44:19.920 --> 0:44:23.680 minority students, non traditional students tradition to students that that 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:28.280 don't have fifty thousand dollars to get takeout loans, should 0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:32.120 you saddle them with student fetes or expenses for a 0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:35.040 football program they're not going to enjoy or for an 0:44:35.040 --> 0:44:37.520 experience that's not the same thing as a residential campus. 0:44:37.800 --> 0:44:41.480 I would argue no, Like, I am not going to 0:44:41.520 --> 0:44:45.239 get all mad online about Stanford or Duke or even 0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:48.880 American wasting money and they're an athoughtic department for some reason, 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:51.279 because you know those are if we can indulge share 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:55.480 in hostereotype, those are mostly students of means I would 0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:57.400 get I do get upset when I see schools that 0:44:57.440 --> 0:45:01.719 are targeting less affluent students then being saddled but with 0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:04.680 some of those things. So I think for me, aligning 0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:08.240 those two incentives would be an important thing for schools 0:45:08.239 --> 0:45:10.960 to do, and then every school to be able to say, 0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:13.360 I am spending this money on my athletic department to 0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:15.480 achieve X, y and Z, and here's how I can 0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:17.399 measure it, and here's how that aligns with what I'm 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:20.600 trying to do. I also think it's a bad product 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:25.520 for fans and honestly for athletes to pretend that schools 0:45:25.520 --> 0:45:28.200 that are not playing the same sport are playing the 0:45:28.239 --> 0:45:30.319 same sport. I don't think it's great for Kent State. 0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:32.319 But they got to play three body bag games and 0:45:32.360 --> 0:45:35.279 they might win one out of forty of them, but 0:45:35.360 --> 0:45:36.920 most of the time they're going to lose by forty. 0:45:36.920 --> 0:45:38.880 And it's cool that you got to play in Ohio Stadium. 0:45:39.040 --> 0:45:42.640 It's probably not as cool that you lost forty nine 0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:46.960 to three. Right a world where that happens less, and 0:45:47.160 --> 0:45:49.439 those schools have an opportunity to compete at a level 0:45:49.440 --> 0:45:52.719 that makes sense for them, I think would be a positive. 0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:54.960 The last thing that I think is so important here 0:45:55.040 --> 0:45:59.400 is that the voice of athletes are meaningfully taken into 0:45:59.440 --> 0:46:02.440 account we make decisions. And this is something I've been 0:46:02.480 --> 0:46:04.319 thinking about here too in my own work. Because it's 0:46:04.600 --> 0:46:06.799 it's easy for me to call up an ad and 0:46:06.840 --> 0:46:08.359 it's easy for a lot of other reporters to call 0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:10.080 up a coach. It's harder for me to build those 0:46:10.120 --> 0:46:12.239 relationships with athletes either because I have to go through 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:14.800 an SID, I have to hope they check their Twitter, DMS, 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:16.920 I have to use a social network I'm not familiar with, 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:21.239 which makes me feel extremely old. Yeah, but ultimately like 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:23.520 it's their lives, like it don't ask me to TikTok man, 0:46:23.560 --> 0:46:28.400 like I'm too old to learning this thing. But whenever, 0:46:28.680 --> 0:46:31.320 whether it's expanding the playoff or changing the amount of 0:46:31.320 --> 0:46:33.600 time that athletes have to do or to spend on 0:46:33.600 --> 0:46:36.360 their sport, I would want a new system to meaningfully 0:46:36.400 --> 0:46:40.040 take their preferences into account, whether that's giving them money, 0:46:40.080 --> 0:46:42.320 giving them healthcare, giving them the opportunity to major in 0:46:42.400 --> 0:46:46.319 whatever they want and then being centered. I don't want 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:48.120 to spend as much time thinking about what will make 0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:51.520 Jimbo Fisher's life more complicated, because, as Don Draper said, like, 0:46:51.560 --> 0:46:53.759 that's what the money's for, Like, I'm not going to 0:46:53.800 --> 0:46:56.920 cry for you, I but the other it's the people 0:46:57.000 --> 0:47:00.120 under you an NFL job, and then yeah, exactly that. 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:02.319 As I think what we would like and how that 0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:04.840 ends up looking, that could be one of ten different things, 0:47:04.920 --> 0:47:06.719 and I don't have a super strong opinion aout any 0:47:06.760 --> 0:47:09.800 of them right now. But if we're not gouging regular 0:47:09.840 --> 0:47:13.040 students with money with expenses for stuff they won't watch, 0:47:13.320 --> 0:47:15.759 and we're not taking advantage of athletes as much, I'm 0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:17.680 probably gonna be cool with whatever al I'm going to 0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:19.719 watch whatever it is that comes out from there. You know. 0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:22.240 One of the things that Dan and I talked about 0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:25.440 and we brought it up specifically around Jim Harbaugh with 0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:29.320 his song and dance, Well he won't he with the NFL, 0:47:29.960 --> 0:47:33.440 but the game is changing, and there's probably a percentage 0:47:33.480 --> 0:47:35.759 of coaches out there. Maybe Gary Patterson kind of falls 0:47:35.760 --> 0:47:38.200 into this category. He definitely does see Yeah, yeah, guys 0:47:38.239 --> 0:47:40.759 who are just sort of like I'm getting too old 0:47:40.800 --> 0:47:43.239 for this crap. It's changed so much. 0:47:43.280 --> 0:47:45.000 How many of the people that you talk. 0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:49.000 To on the administrative level will be out there publicly saying, 0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:52.279 we're all for this, we want to support it, we 0:47:52.320 --> 0:47:55.520 support the voice of the student athlete. But behind the scenes, 0:47:55.600 --> 0:47:59.279 conversations they have with you or among their peers are like, man, 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:01.279 I don't I don't want to deal with this. 0:48:01.719 --> 0:48:04.120 Well, it's funny. Those people typically don't talk to me 0:48:04.160 --> 0:48:08.319 as much anymore because of course, right, of course they know, 0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:11.040 like Matt's gonna say that if I tell them right. 0:48:11.400 --> 0:48:14.280 What we saw was some coaches. Gary Patterson's a great example. Honestly, 0:48:14.280 --> 0:48:16.600 I think Urban Meyer is a good example. There's a 0:48:16.600 --> 0:48:19.080 certain kind of coach that was only really able to 0:48:19.160 --> 0:48:21.840 lead by having a certain kind of power, which you 0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:23.600 definitely can't have that on the left. And we saw this, 0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:27.760 I think in the seventies two, when many black athletes said, actually, 0:48:27.800 --> 0:48:29.560 you have to treat me like a human being. You 0:48:29.600 --> 0:48:31.560 can't tell me I have to have this kind of haircut. 0:48:31.840 --> 0:48:33.880 You can't. And then you know, we saw the at 0:48:33.880 --> 0:48:36.920 Wyoming in Iowa and Oregon State. Some of those coaches 0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:39.359 like the de Lloyd eatons of the world. They had 0:48:39.400 --> 0:48:43.160 to get out. We also saw that on the administrative level, 0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:46.520 there's a certain kind of AD that's been doing this 0:48:46.560 --> 0:48:49.360 for thirty five years and can't imagine a different way. 0:48:49.640 --> 0:48:52.960 And I don't know if maybe Barry Alvarez specifically falls 0:48:53.040 --> 0:48:55.239 under this camp, but I think people like him like 0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:58.520 this is a good time for me to leave. We 0:48:58.600 --> 0:49:01.960 also saw I think a chunk of administrators, many of 0:49:02.040 --> 0:49:04.520 them I think were really pretty bright, that are much younger, 0:49:04.760 --> 0:49:07.000 that looked at this and thought things can't change as 0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:10.160 quickly as we'd like them to. And I don't want 0:49:10.239 --> 0:49:11.759 to kind of go through the thirties of that song 0:49:11.800 --> 0:49:13.640 and dance. I want to get out now. So we 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:17.320 saw the Commissioner of the America Yeast, who was somebody 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:20.680 that I think could have, you know, led the ACC 0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:24.239 in ten years. We saw ads at Portland State and 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:26.600 you see Davis and a couple of other places. People 0:49:26.600 --> 0:49:29.759 that were I think under fifty left and so you 0:49:29.800 --> 0:49:31.239 are seeing a change now. When I talk to a 0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:35.120 lot of ads now, I think there's a generational shift 0:49:35.120 --> 0:49:38.920 between are you like over sixty and are not? And 0:49:39.040 --> 0:49:42.600 how you think about athlete empowerment or nil and you 0:49:42.640 --> 0:49:44.279 have to be comfortable with some of these changes if 0:49:44.280 --> 0:49:45.680 you want to you want to stay in this business 0:49:45.719 --> 0:49:48.959 because it's it's a different world for good or frail. 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:51.080 I feel like Brian Kelly is sort of the poster 0:49:51.120 --> 0:49:53.880 boy for this movement. On one hand, the ten million 0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:58.319 dollar bag of cash. On the other, player empowerment, the 0:49:58.360 --> 0:50:00.920 game changing, having to stay and on the weird three 0:50:01.040 --> 0:50:05.120 sixty platform do that the gritty yeah, yeah, the gritty yeah, 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:08.200 like it is changing. I'm curious to see how it 0:50:08.239 --> 0:50:10.200 goes for him. I suspect it will go well. He's 0:50:10.239 --> 0:50:11.560 got bottomless resources. 0:50:11.600 --> 0:50:14.480 But I can't wait. I can't wait. 0:50:14.640 --> 0:50:17.440 The coaching world has been forced to respond to this 0:50:17.480 --> 0:50:20.239 in a way that you know, I don't know. I 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:23.239 really foresaw no, No, I. 0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:26.160 Think I think you're right. It's one that I know 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:30.279 a lot of coaches are really uncomfortable with on the 0:50:30.320 --> 0:50:33.560 football side, and they're hesitant to say that in public, 0:50:34.560 --> 0:50:37.640 but it's true. And it's not just about what you 0:50:37.680 --> 0:50:39.440 have to do. It's recruiting. They one. The idea of 0:50:39.480 --> 0:50:43.239 constantly having to recruit your own roster is different because 0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:45.160 I think a common thing to do right is to 0:50:45.200 --> 0:50:47.440 gas somebody up when they're eighteen, and they kind of 0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:50.120 deprogram them a little bit right when they get on campus. 0:50:50.400 --> 0:50:53.280 And now you realize that if you lead by fear 0:50:53.719 --> 0:50:56.560 or if you don't build those kind of relationships across 0:50:56.560 --> 0:50:59.759 your whole roster, everyone's gonna leave. You're gonna have a 0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:03.239 whole why situation, and like that doesn't work anymore. That's 0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:05.360 also true with how you might have talked about politics 0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:08.319 or or race. Uh. And you know, this was an 0:51:08.320 --> 0:51:10.719 issue for Orizaron right and one of the things that 0:51:10.800 --> 0:51:13.520 kind of led to things falling apart at LSU. And 0:51:14.440 --> 0:51:18.040 building those kind of competencies is hard for a lot 0:51:18.239 --> 0:51:20.960 of big time college football coaches. And this is this 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:23.200 is not a value judgment here. It's just that that 0:51:23.320 --> 0:51:26.160 is a system that's tended to reward folks who have 0:51:26.200 --> 0:51:32.839 an almost sociopathic narrow mindedness into one like into one world, right, 0:51:33.160 --> 0:51:34.799 and they're they're not There's not a whole lot of 0:51:34.800 --> 0:51:37.120 people that are reading uh. You know what, we don't 0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:39.200 have my Gundy's watching and reading right, But there's not 0:51:39.239 --> 0:51:41.080 a lot of other people that are like are as 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:45.560 we are as connected to to politics or to to 0:51:45.560 --> 0:51:47.960 to race, or to finance these other things that maybe 0:51:48.000 --> 0:51:50.520 they're going to have to to connect with their athletes. 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:52.000 And so it's going to be fun to see who's 0:51:52.200 --> 0:51:55.000 comfortable making some of those changes, who will attempt and 0:51:55.040 --> 0:51:57.319 do it clumsily and we'll get those jokes off, but 0:51:57.480 --> 0:52:00.080 I think athletes will forgive them and who is completle, 0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:04.000 incapable of changing for anything. The Mike Leeches of the world, 0:52:04.080 --> 0:52:06.480 you know, like, come Heller high Water. This is exactly 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:08.040 what I am and you know what I'm getting and 0:52:08.080 --> 0:52:11.000 I'm not changing. I don't know how it's going to 0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:12.640 work out, but it'll be fun for us all to watch, 0:52:12.719 --> 0:52:13.719 right Absolutely. 0:52:14.200 --> 0:52:17.360 I ask you this as somebody who has probably like 0:52:17.480 --> 0:52:20.279 seven different hands and seven different cookie jars in that 0:52:20.800 --> 0:52:23.799 you're invested in Ohio State football, you're invested in the 0:52:23.840 --> 0:52:26.280 sport of football. You're invested in the business of football. 0:52:26.320 --> 0:52:28.960 You're invested in the business of college sports, but specific 0:52:29.000 --> 0:52:31.759 to football. And everybody has a different answer for this. 0:52:32.640 --> 0:52:35.880 How do you quantify the health of the sports? Some 0:52:35.880 --> 0:52:38.560 people will say TV ratings, Some people will say, you know, 0:52:38.680 --> 0:52:42.120 conference money payouts. Some people will say, you know, the 0:52:42.719 --> 0:52:45.720 ability of America to fall in love with a quarterback 0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:48.640 who's going to be taking number one overall, so right now, 0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:51.880 and my own answer is do I enjoy watching it 0:52:51.920 --> 0:52:54.680 as a TV show in that like, yes, hell yeah, 0:52:54.680 --> 0:52:57.640 I want to watch West Virginia, Texas Tech because those 0:52:57.680 --> 0:53:01.600 programs are entertaining, and this is a a sport driven 0:53:01.600 --> 0:53:04.239 by TV money. So it's just a matter of, well, 0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:06.040 I go out of my way to watch this game 0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:08.840 or as many games as I can. So to you, 0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:13.959 how do you quantify a very strange sport, a very 0:53:14.000 --> 0:53:17.560 disparate sport in terms of overall health. 0:53:18.680 --> 0:53:21.239 That is a really man, I'm sorry if. 0:53:21.160 --> 0:53:24.240 That's just a very involved unanswer, this is a good one. 0:53:24.880 --> 0:53:27.960 I think my initial answer would be I would I 0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:31.359 think I think it it's not extremely healthy, that there 0:53:31.360 --> 0:53:33.480 are some things about it that are still going strong, 0:53:33.560 --> 0:53:36.000 Like I think this as a pockets of this country 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:39.719 are going to unconditionally low football totally forever. Right. You know, 0:53:40.000 --> 0:53:41.600 I grew up in one of one of those places. 0:53:41.600 --> 0:53:42.840 I know both of you have spent time in some 0:53:42.880 --> 0:53:45.799 of those places there too. But there's some warning signs, right. 0:53:45.960 --> 0:53:49.360 One of those is with just pure participation in football, 0:53:49.400 --> 0:53:52.920 which has been in decline almost everywhere in the country. 0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:56.000 It has been most pronounced in the PAC twelve footprint 0:53:56.080 --> 0:53:58.800 and in the Northeast in some places. Here here in Chicago, 0:53:58.960 --> 0:54:00.799 I wrote a big story about you know, this used 0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:03.040 to be one of you know, the Cook County was 0:54:03.080 --> 0:54:06.560 like Miami Dade for finding football recruits right a couple 0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:09.920 of decades ago. And whether that's population shift, whether that's 0:54:09.960 --> 0:54:12.520 a lack of adults to help run some of those 0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:16.840 youth leagues, whether that's concern about the health and safety 0:54:16.880 --> 0:54:21.480 of playing youth football, and and just pure cost. A 0:54:21.520 --> 0:54:25.560 lot of families aren't participating anymore. And I think for 0:54:25.760 --> 0:54:27.319 particularly for a lot of young men, you fall in 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:30.040 love with football in part because you played it in 0:54:30.080 --> 0:54:33.279 seventh or eighth grade and you learned the kind of 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:35.120 nuts and bolts of it. So that would be a 0:54:35.200 --> 0:54:38.239 concern not just for finding enough talent, but but for 0:54:38.320 --> 0:54:41.239 finding fans. I think the fact that students by and 0:54:41.360 --> 0:54:44.440 large are going to these games far less than they 0:54:44.480 --> 0:54:46.840 did a decade ago, and in most places in general, 0:54:46.880 --> 0:54:50.920 are facing declining attendance. I think I think that is 0:54:50.960 --> 0:54:53.520 an issue, and I think the governance of this sport 0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:56.719 is an issue. And by that I mean not just 0:54:56.760 --> 0:55:01.200 with the NCAA, and not just with Congress, but we've 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:03.440 had a bunch of commissioner and ad changes over the 0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:06.920 last ten years, and the trust level within the people 0:55:06.920 --> 0:55:09.160 that have to govern this sport is maybe at an 0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:14.320 all time low, even with people in Delaney was somebody 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:18.120 that I think a lot of administrators would happily dogcuss 0:55:18.160 --> 0:55:21.160 behind closed doors. But they also knew that you know 0:55:21.360 --> 0:55:24.080 how to work with him and knew and were able 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:26.400 to work through some of those things, and that really 0:55:26.440 --> 0:55:28.680 isn't happening right now. I think a lot to what 0:55:28.719 --> 0:55:32.160 we saw with the conversations about expanding the playoff, which 0:55:32.200 --> 0:55:35.200 is something that every Conference commissioner wants to do, and 0:55:35.239 --> 0:55:37.239 they weren't able to figure out a way around a 0:55:37.280 --> 0:55:42.279 couple of these important but not massive sticking points. And 0:55:42.320 --> 0:55:43.560 I think part of that is because right now they 0:55:43.560 --> 0:55:45.279 don't like each other. A lot of them straight up 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:47.080 don't like each other. So if they're unable to come 0:55:47.080 --> 0:55:49.000 to a good agreement on something they all want to do, 0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:50.600 what's going to happen when they got to come to 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:52.640 agreements and stuff they don't all want to do, which 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:54.719 is what the next six months are. So I look 0:55:54.760 --> 0:55:57.480 at all of those things and think there's some big 0:55:57.480 --> 0:55:59.799 problems to say nothing of Congress, or to say nothing 0:55:59.800 --> 0:56:03.000 of the courts, or we know about CTE. There's there's 0:56:03.080 --> 0:56:05.640 there's things to be excited about. Like I, honest to God, 0:56:05.719 --> 0:56:07.799 look at NIL and think this might make me like 0:56:07.840 --> 0:56:11.000 college football more. Think of all the the great memes 0:56:11.040 --> 0:56:13.440 we're gonna get right, think think of Think of of 0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:16.680 of how this is going to improve the lives of athletes, 0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:17.920 Think about how this is going to help me get 0:56:17.920 --> 0:56:20.880 to know people in a deeper way than before. But 0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:25.240 I have some concerns and and I'm not necessarily sure 0:56:25.360 --> 0:56:28.640 that the people who are responsible for finding solutions to 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:31.640 those problems are best equipped to do that right now. 0:56:32.200 --> 0:56:34.200 One of the interesting things about the sport, and Ty 0:56:34.200 --> 0:56:37.280 and I talked about this in Bowl season with opt 0:56:37.320 --> 0:56:39.399 out specifically, but I think it goes deeper than opt 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:42.160 outs is college football is a really hard sport to 0:56:42.200 --> 0:56:42.680 get into. 0:56:43.120 --> 0:56:43.319 Right. 0:56:43.440 --> 0:56:46.320 The barrier to entry for college football and it's not unique. 0:56:46.560 --> 0:56:49.440 I compared it to like the EPL and transfer windows, 0:56:49.440 --> 0:56:51.359 and you can buy players, but you have to return them, 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:54.239 and there's there's a separate league you play in if 0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:58.160 you're also good Like it's it's just complicated. Some sports 0:56:58.200 --> 0:57:01.240 are just complicated and difficult to get into. College football 0:57:01.320 --> 0:57:03.920 has positioned itself as a national sport. It wants to 0:57:03.960 --> 0:57:07.640 compete with the NFL, the NBA, Major League Baseball, the NHL, 0:57:08.160 --> 0:57:11.160 the MLS, whatever, which are easier sports to follow, because 0:57:11.200 --> 0:57:13.560 inherently they have athletes who can play for fifteen years. 0:57:13.600 --> 0:57:16.440 The best athletes can become famous in household names. And 0:57:16.480 --> 0:57:18.919 you're like, I don't care what team Lebron James plays for. 0:57:19.200 --> 0:57:22.160 I love rooting against Lebron. I'm gonna watch Lebron games 0:57:22.160 --> 0:57:24.560 to hate on him or whatever. You can't do that 0:57:24.600 --> 0:57:27.400 in college football. And now we have a sport in 0:57:27.440 --> 0:57:31.440 which I'm speaking on behalf of the sport. We want 0:57:31.520 --> 0:57:37.080 mainstream eyeballs, but we're making it extremely difficult via recruiting, 0:57:37.200 --> 0:57:40.640 via transfers, via coaches leaving, via nil rules, via opt 0:57:40.640 --> 0:57:44.480 outs ahead of huge games like Pitt had a Heisman 0:57:44.560 --> 0:57:47.080 caliber quarterback who decided not to play in the biggest 0:57:47.080 --> 0:57:49.960 game of pit season. Like, that's just a reality, and 0:57:50.040 --> 0:57:51.880 whether you like it or not, that's a reality of 0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:56.520 the sport. Is the difficulty of being a national or 0:57:56.680 --> 0:58:01.480 regional or local college football fan sure or a bug 0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:02.600 at this point. 0:58:04.240 --> 0:58:06.800 I mean, I'm like as into the weeds as almost 0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:08.960 anybody as you're going to find. But like this, it's 0:58:08.960 --> 0:58:11.080 funny because this is a thought experiment I do all 0:58:11.080 --> 0:58:13.200 the time because like, my wife is not a college 0:58:13.200 --> 0:58:16.520 football fan, her family are not college football fans, and 0:58:16.560 --> 0:58:18.800 most of the people like in my world and here 0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:21.320 in Chicago are not that way. So what like I 0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:23.280 try to think here one This is why I think 0:58:23.320 --> 0:58:24.840 about this all the time when I'm writing, because even 0:58:24.920 --> 0:58:26.800 I'm really getting in the weeds about stuff like is 0:58:26.840 --> 0:58:29.880 this something I can explain to my father in law 0:58:30.440 --> 0:58:33.040 and have his eyes not glaze over in the first 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:35.520 forty five seconds? And if I can't, then great, Like 0:58:35.680 --> 0:58:37.280 then I've got an actual story. 0:58:37.320 --> 0:58:39.080 That's how we used to That's how we used to 0:58:39.080 --> 0:58:41.600 approach podcasting, trying and explain to people what is it? 0:58:41.960 --> 0:58:45.360 Absolutely yeah, so and that is an issue, and that 0:58:45.440 --> 0:58:48.080 is something I would think about if my job was 0:58:48.160 --> 0:58:51.240 to sell college football. I think there are some schools 0:58:51.240 --> 0:58:53.280 that are getting better at this and trying to find, well, 0:58:53.280 --> 0:58:54.720 what are ways we can do to make all of 0:58:54.720 --> 0:58:58.560 this ecosystem more accessible? You know, Like it's funny like this, 0:58:58.560 --> 0:59:01.360 this might be like a superficial thing. I think. I 0:59:01.400 --> 0:59:03.720 think Lafayette was a school. When I first started doing 0:59:03.720 --> 0:59:06.280 extra points, I did this, Well, this is the Louisiana Lafayette. 0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:09.120 And they're telling me, like one of our goals is, 0:59:09.160 --> 0:59:11.600 and this is a culture that understands football is we 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:14.440 want to be the cheapest restaurant in Lafayette on game days. 0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:17.320 So we're going to offer dollar tall boys and we're 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:19.760 gonna we're going to price our concessions cheaper than local 0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:22.920 high schools, and we're going to fly at every community 0:59:22.920 --> 0:59:25.120 center and every school and get people to come here 0:59:25.320 --> 0:59:26.880 and like, you know, you know the post I was 0:59:26.880 --> 0:59:30.320 talking like, listen, South Louisiana. We are professional drinkers, so 0:59:30.360 --> 0:59:32.480 we can give dollar tall boys and it's not going 0:59:32.480 --> 0:59:34.520 to be an issue. But our thing here is let's 0:59:34.560 --> 0:59:38.600 get everybody we possibly can to see this, to see 0:59:38.600 --> 0:59:42.480 the marching band, to see students, to to to see 0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:47.040 the wonderful South Louisiana tailgate experience, and we can get 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:49.880 them to fall in love with it later and at 0:59:49.880 --> 0:59:52.040 what once once they see that. I've talked to people 0:59:52.040 --> 0:59:54.400 at Nevada or you know, Reno is a city that's 0:59:54.480 --> 0:59:55.960 changing an awful lot right now, and they're like, what 0:59:56.040 --> 0:59:59.000 we're doing is we are We're calling up every realtor 0:59:59.080 --> 1:00:01.320 we know and we're get giving them two free tickets 1:00:01.320 --> 1:00:04.520 to every new home that's sold in Reno to get 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:06.400 the new people to come in and hope you fall 1:00:06.440 --> 1:00:08.880 in love with that. And I think that might be 1:00:08.920 --> 1:00:10.640 part of what you have to do because for as 1:00:10.720 --> 1:00:13.160 much as the in person experience, we can talk about 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:16.920 how TV makes that more challenging and maybe it's not 1:00:16.960 --> 1:00:19.400 the same as it used to be, but the most 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:23.040 compelling way to get people to see beyond recruiting rankings 1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:28.160 and transfer windows and rivalry trophies that we invented in 1:00:28.240 --> 1:00:32.160 nineteen fourteen and their bronze monopoly pieces or whatever, I 1:00:32.160 --> 1:00:33.560 think you just got to get people in the building. 1:00:33.600 --> 1:00:35.000 Because if you get people in the building and you 1:00:35.080 --> 1:00:37.080 see the brick and on the campus and you hear 1:00:37.120 --> 1:00:40.800 the marching band, it's cool and that helps you work 1:00:40.840 --> 1:00:43.400 through some of those things. So that is an issue 1:00:43.480 --> 1:00:47.560 you have to solve. The fact that this is so 1:00:47.720 --> 1:00:51.880 unique is a selling point that it's so provincial and 1:00:51.880 --> 1:00:54.920 that's local. Yeah, I think that's the very best part 1:00:54.920 --> 1:00:58.720 about college football, and it's finding ways to overcome that 1:00:58.760 --> 1:01:02.120 barrier to make it accessible is is a challenge. But 1:01:02.480 --> 1:01:04.280 it's that way with other things too. Like I feel 1:01:04.280 --> 1:01:06.800 like I've been saying I could really get into hockey 1:01:07.160 --> 1:01:09.840 like every year the last like five years. I think 1:01:09.920 --> 1:01:12.760 that's a place that has a high barriered jury right totally, 1:01:13.040 --> 1:01:15.439 and I've been scared off a little bit. Maybe maybe 1:01:15.480 --> 1:01:19.560 eventually it'll make it, it'll make it happen, But like that, 1:01:19.560 --> 1:01:21.480 that's something that people have to do with for sure. 1:01:21.600 --> 1:01:23.440 Well, it's it's minor league baseball. 1:01:23.640 --> 1:01:25.800 Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's minor league baseball. But 1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:28.720 also with like one hundred and ten years of lore, yes, yeah, 1:01:28.760 --> 1:01:31.400 they'll never have the same emotional connection to a minor 1:01:31.480 --> 1:01:32.960 league team as they will to a place they've got 1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:35.000 hanging up in their in their room, you know. 1:01:35.600 --> 1:01:40.440 Final question, perhaps the most important question. On our last episode, 1:01:40.520 --> 1:01:44.200 Dan and I were theorizing how we could sponsor an 1:01:44.200 --> 1:01:49.800 Instagram post for Zach Calzada Zach Calzada transfer quarterback. He's 1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:54.520 got thirty five thousand Instagram followers. What exactly is the 1:01:54.560 --> 1:01:57.840 process by which a small business, which is what we are, 1:01:57.880 --> 1:02:02.000 a very small business, would go about trying to find 1:02:02.040 --> 1:02:07.840 an endorsement social media or otherwise in the current climate. 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:11.880 Yeah, so this was why I did these deals for 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:15.440 extra points, and I hope to do much bigger deals 1:02:15.480 --> 1:02:18.760 for extra points. I think later this spring or summer. Right, 1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:20.320 I did a bunch of deals for like two hundred bucks, 1:02:20.360 --> 1:02:22.720 one hundred and fifty bucks plus commissions for athletes, and 1:02:22.760 --> 1:02:24.440 now I'm like, maybe it makes more sense to find 1:02:24.440 --> 1:02:26.160 the right athlete and do like two or three grand. 1:02:26.480 --> 1:02:28.240 But what you would do if you're a business, The 1:02:28.280 --> 1:02:31.960 easiest way, besides trying to brokerage straight on Twitter, would 1:02:31.960 --> 1:02:34.120 be to set up an account on a marketplace. And 1:02:34.160 --> 1:02:38.040 there's a bunch of them open doors, market price, mogul, 1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:41.800 no cap, I can even you know, I can DM you. 1:02:41.840 --> 1:02:43.720 I have a list of all of these right and 1:02:43.800 --> 1:02:46.080 for most of the Bronxton time for brands, it's free 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:49.600 to sign up and it works kind of like Facebook Marketplace. 1:02:49.640 --> 1:02:51.720 You would you would give some information about your company. 1:02:51.920 --> 1:02:53.720 You would explain this is what I'm looking for for 1:02:53.840 --> 1:02:57.400 my campaign. Maybe two Instagram posts and maybe a podcast 1:02:57.400 --> 1:03:00.320 appearance or two Instagram posts, and could you take a 1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:02.320 picture of you wearing a solid verbal T shirt or 1:03:02.320 --> 1:03:04.560 something right, and you would list all of your information 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:07.680 and your budget, and you can make that budget a 1:03:07.720 --> 1:03:10.800 flat rate. You can tie it to conversions, you could 1:03:10.800 --> 1:03:12.360 tie it to a couple other things, and I'd usually 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:14.840 give a range, and then you could make it public. 1:03:15.080 --> 1:03:17.880 And you could either make it public and invite people 1:03:17.920 --> 1:03:19.880 to come pitch you, or other athletes will come and 1:03:19.920 --> 1:03:21.240 pitch you, which is what I did on a few 1:03:21.240 --> 1:03:24.040 of these marketplaces, or then you could you could say, hey, 1:03:24.760 --> 1:03:28.040 show me all of the athletes in this database who 1:03:28.080 --> 1:03:31.640 play this sport, who have followings in this range, who 1:03:31.680 --> 1:03:33.640 have like a budget specified by this I think. I 1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:35.840 think the best marketplaces will also let you sort by 1:03:36.640 --> 1:03:41.000 maybe major or hometown or more granular with what their 1:03:41.040 --> 1:03:43.000 what their audience looks like, and then they'll match you 1:03:43.040 --> 1:03:44.680 with people and you can directly reach out to them 1:03:44.680 --> 1:03:47.320 as well, just like you would if you are trying 1:03:47.320 --> 1:03:51.400 to hire somebody on a resume database or selling something 1:03:51.520 --> 1:03:53.760 on Craigslist. And then the way it typically works is 1:03:53.800 --> 1:03:57.400 you would begin the conversation on that platform, you might 1:03:57.440 --> 1:03:59.800 exchange phone numbers and then talk otherwise like you might 1:04:00.040 --> 1:04:05.760 tender I think, or I mean I can't confirm, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:09.280 I got married before all that became big. And then 1:04:09.840 --> 1:04:11.600 the way it typically works is then like the marketplace 1:04:11.640 --> 1:04:13.880 takes a commission off the value of the deal. So 1:04:14.080 --> 1:04:15.640 if you're going to pay an athlete one hundred and 1:04:15.640 --> 1:04:17.840 fifty bucks, you might put one hundred and seventy five 1:04:17.840 --> 1:04:21.520 bucks in escrow. The marketplace takes the twenty five dollars fee. 1:04:21.800 --> 1:04:23.400 The one hundred and fifty then goes to the athlete 1:04:23.440 --> 1:04:26.320 once you approve it. It really is pretty simple. And I 1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:28.800 would say for a company that's trying to drive awareness 1:04:29.160 --> 1:04:31.240 that is a college football show or a college show 1:04:31.280 --> 1:04:33.720 that talks about college athletes, I think it's a good idea. 1:04:33.960 --> 1:04:35.800 It becomes a little bit more complicated if you are 1:04:35.800 --> 1:04:37.960 like a beat writer, and I wouldn't recommend you pay 1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:40.800 for an interview that way, but for a podcast, I 1:04:40.840 --> 1:04:43.600 mean like that it would make sense. Many many others 1:04:43.640 --> 1:04:46.280 are doing that, and that is how you the best 1:04:46.280 --> 1:04:47.560 way I think you'd go about trying to find the 1:04:47.640 --> 1:04:48.160 right athlete. 1:04:49.320 --> 1:04:52.160 Good stuff, Good stuff, Matt, You've been doing your homework. 1:04:52.200 --> 1:04:54.600 I got to say, we always feel a little bit 1:04:54.600 --> 1:04:56.040 smarter when we have a chance to talk with you. 1:04:56.160 --> 1:04:59.520 So we've come a long way here in the last 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:02.880 years since we last had this conversation. We will definitely 1:05:02.920 --> 1:05:04.840 have to do it more frequently as we get into 1:05:04.880 --> 1:05:06.680 the summer, get closer to the new season. 1:05:06.720 --> 1:05:08.000 But how can. 1:05:07.880 --> 1:05:10.680 Folks find your content? How can folks help support what 1:05:10.720 --> 1:05:11.760 you're doing at extra Points? 1:05:12.040 --> 1:05:16.120 Yeah, I mean, thanks so much. Like I love this stuff. 1:05:16.320 --> 1:05:19.000 I know that not everybody else does. But if like 1:05:19.040 --> 1:05:20.800 this is the kind of thing that you're interested in 1:05:21.120 --> 1:05:24.960 reading or hearing more about. I publish a daily newsletter 1:05:25.480 --> 1:05:27.720 called extra Points. You can find it at extra points 1:05:27.880 --> 1:05:32.680 mb dot com. Two of those newsletters are free, three 1:05:32.720 --> 1:05:35.440 of them are behind a paywall. Cost typically cost eight 1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:37.760 bucks a month. But I'll set up a special solid 1:05:37.800 --> 1:05:42.480 verbal specific discount, right, Yeah, well I'll do this orry 1:05:42.720 --> 1:05:44.960 we're done recording here, right if you use say promo 1:05:45.000 --> 1:05:48.080 code solid verbal not twenty five percent off, so you 1:05:48.080 --> 1:05:48.400 can get it. 1:05:48.360 --> 1:05:49.120 From the boom. 1:05:49.160 --> 1:05:52.040 Thanks man, that's cool. But sure, yeah, so we'll get 1:05:52.040 --> 1:05:54.000 that for six bucks. You can put that in the notes. 1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:57.840 I also do a podcast with Brian Fisher called Going 1:05:57.880 --> 1:06:01.000 for Two, which is the same kind of stories that 1:06:01.080 --> 1:06:03.320 you might find it in a newsletter that's twice a week. 1:06:03.360 --> 1:06:06.000 You can find that wherever people get podcasts and I'm 1:06:06.040 --> 1:06:08.320 on Twitter at Matt Brown. Awesome. 1:06:08.600 --> 1:06:11.920 He came prepared, prepared as always, Matt Brown, a pleasure. 1:06:12.080 --> 1:06:14.480 We will have you on again sometime soon in the meantime, 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:17.080 As we say here on the show, Stay solid. 1:06:17.200 --> 1:06:18.920 Thanks Pella, stay solid. Always a pleasure. 1:06:19.520 --> 1:06:25.400 Okay, yes, sir, there we go. Matt Brown generously setting 1:06:25.480 --> 1:06:28.360 up a discount for any of the ballers who are 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:32.440 interested at extra points mb dot com Solid Verbal if 1:06:32.480 --> 1:06:36.640 you want to get your discounted rate on Matt's content. 1:06:37.320 --> 1:06:39.960 I don't even know where to start, man Like, he 1:06:40.160 --> 1:06:43.720 pretty much covered so much ground in an hour and 1:06:43.800 --> 1:06:46.360 answered so many of the questions that I had with 1:06:46.440 --> 1:06:49.439 how this whole thing works. As you know, any new 1:06:49.480 --> 1:06:52.320 thing in life, if you don't understand it, people tend 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:54.400 to be afraid of it. I don't know if I'm 1:06:54.440 --> 1:06:56.280 any less afraid of nil. 1:06:56.440 --> 1:06:59.120 Now I've spent the majority of the last two minutes 1:06:59.160 --> 1:07:03.560 of my life google options for Zach Calzado. Should he 1:07:03.680 --> 1:07:08.360 win the starting job at Auburn and sort of look 1:07:08.480 --> 1:07:11.800 like he did against Alabama and is a star quarterback? 1:07:11.920 --> 1:07:14.480 Is turning And we just had justin Ferguson on and receivers. 1:07:14.720 --> 1:07:16.760 The receiver group is an issue right now at Auburn. 1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:20.760 But if he's turning soso receivers or underrated receivers into 1:07:20.800 --> 1:07:23.400 stars and is making plays and winning big games, and 1:07:23.440 --> 1:07:27.240 it's just like a bona fide next great thing at Auburn. 1:07:27.520 --> 1:07:30.080 Don't know if it'll happen. I kind of think it 1:07:30.120 --> 1:07:33.640 might not, but you can never be too prepared. All Right, 1:07:33.960 --> 1:07:36.520 I have three options, and I'm not going to promote. 1:07:36.520 --> 1:07:39.440 I'm not going to promote for free a business in Auburn, Alabama. 1:07:40.040 --> 1:07:43.320 But you can get all of these things there. Okay, 1:07:43.440 --> 1:07:46.640 I'm saying, what if he does a Zach pack. Okay, 1:07:46.680 --> 1:07:49.160 a Zach pack at some sort of local fast food 1:07:49.200 --> 1:07:52.160 place because you've seen like KFC or the other day, 1:07:52.240 --> 1:07:54.760 Like these lunch deals are like popcorn, chicken, tater tots 1:07:54.760 --> 1:07:56.360 and a drink and a biscuit. So we have a 1:07:56.440 --> 1:07:58.880 Zach pack of his choosing. That makes sense. That's a 1:07:58.880 --> 1:07:59.919 fun thing to say, Zach. 1:08:00.480 --> 1:08:00.800 Sure. 1:08:01.520 --> 1:08:04.200 And then the other two are just more uh punny 1:08:04.240 --> 1:08:06.080 and stupid, but they are options that you can get 1:08:06.120 --> 1:08:11.040 in Auburn, Alabama. I'm talking about Calzada's enchiladas. That is 1:08:11.080 --> 1:08:14.040 a special combination. Maybe it's a red and green sauce, 1:08:14.160 --> 1:08:17.000 like a combination thing. Maybe it's an extra it's like 1:08:17.000 --> 1:08:19.920 a spicy shrimp that isn't normally offered at a place. Right, 1:08:19.960 --> 1:08:23.280 it's Calzadas Enchiladas, and you know he promotes it on 1:08:23.360 --> 1:08:26.679 a local commercial Instagram or whatever. And my final offering 1:08:26.720 --> 1:08:29.960 for Zach Calzada should he really pop in Auburn, Alabama, 1:08:30.320 --> 1:08:36.080 is Calzada's Calzona's and those are I apologize why at 1:08:36.120 --> 1:08:37.160 the local boat. 1:08:36.920 --> 1:08:39.400 Store for Calzada's Armada. 1:08:39.600 --> 1:08:41.519 Well, that's many boats, and I don't know how many 1:08:41.520 --> 1:08:43.400 people are. 1:08:43.080 --> 1:08:46.799 Joinda Armada buy a boat from Bob's Boats. 1:08:47.760 --> 1:08:51.800 That's true, but Armada is not as immediately recognizable a 1:08:51.840 --> 1:08:55.200 word as enchilada to me or Calzona, which is how 1:08:55.240 --> 1:08:57.439 I would shift it. And so he obviously gets to 1:08:57.439 --> 1:09:01.400 pick the filling of this specialty item. And maybe it's 1:09:01.520 --> 1:09:05.080 you know, it's seven dollars and however many points Auburn 1:09:05.160 --> 1:09:08.000 scores that week, you know, something like that. But I 1:09:08.120 --> 1:09:09.599 just I think you got to get creative. I think 1:09:09.600 --> 1:09:11.680 you got to get into it. And Auburn is a 1:09:11.760 --> 1:09:15.080 community and fan base that is all in on football. 1:09:15.360 --> 1:09:18.040 So Cal's ota is Calzona's. I'm ready to make it 1:09:18.080 --> 1:09:22.680 a thing and be a creative director for the commercial 1:09:22.960 --> 1:09:24.000 if it comes to pass. 1:09:24.280 --> 1:09:26.880 I think we're positioning ourselves maybe not so much as 1:09:26.920 --> 1:09:30.880 the sponsor, right, but as the agent, as Matt described 1:09:30.960 --> 1:09:33.839 as the as the creative body. 1:09:34.000 --> 1:09:36.240 He's got a great name. He's at a huge place. 1:09:37.400 --> 1:09:40.960 Cals OTAs Enchilada's cal's OTA's Calzona's. 1:09:41.120 --> 1:09:44.040 All right, get justin on the horn again. We got 1:09:44.080 --> 1:09:46.840 to find out the state of Mexican food in Auburn, Alabama. 1:09:47.160 --> 1:09:48.240 That's true, that's where we're. 1:09:48.200 --> 1:09:50.280 I'm sure there are options. There have to be options 1:09:50.320 --> 1:09:51.519 everybody else Mexican food. 1:09:51.640 --> 1:09:54.800 Yeah, all right, Well again, please do go on out 1:09:54.840 --> 1:09:58.439 to Extra Points mb slash Solid Verbal if you're interested 1:09:58.600 --> 1:10:03.280 in more of Matt's well researched and thoughtful content, which 1:10:03.320 --> 1:10:06.280 he puts out on a regular continuing basis. We so 1:10:06.479 --> 1:10:08.640 very much appreciate the time that he gave us here 1:10:08.680 --> 1:10:11.080 today to help make us a little bit smarter with 1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:14.719 respect to all things nil and just college business at large. 1:10:15.120 --> 1:10:18.599 Don't forget if you are ever so inclined going out 1:10:18.640 --> 1:10:22.160 to Verballers dot com. That is our patreon. You can 1:10:22.200 --> 1:10:25.280 go on out there and access the bonus content that 1:10:25.280 --> 1:10:28.599 we put out every Friday, The Bruin A. We answer 1:10:28.600 --> 1:10:31.640 your questions. We answer your questions. Not only do we 1:10:31.680 --> 1:10:34.240 do that, but you get access to the video of 1:10:34.320 --> 1:10:37.360 us chatting with Matt. You get access to the show early. 1:10:37.800 --> 1:10:41.000 You also get access to our discord server, which is 1:10:41.120 --> 1:10:43.599 still popping off Dan, even though it's the off season. 1:10:43.960 --> 1:10:44.160 Yep. 1:10:44.360 --> 1:10:46.599 Still a great community of forballers. If you like the show, 1:10:46.600 --> 1:10:48.320 if you like college football, it's a cool place to 1:10:48.360 --> 1:10:51.559 hang out. And last but not least, follow us on 1:10:51.760 --> 1:10:55.240 social media if you have not already, so I have 1:10:56.439 --> 1:10:58.760 enjoy your time in sunny southern California. 1:10:58.800 --> 1:11:00.800 And wait, by the way, we have a UH off 1:11:00.840 --> 1:11:04.600 topic show too, right, that's part of the UH the 1:11:04.720 --> 1:11:08.400 Verbalers dot Com exclusive. We're working monthly off topic. Yeah, yeah, 1:11:08.400 --> 1:11:09.160 we're working on it. 1:11:10.520 --> 1:11:11.160 We get weird. 1:11:11.240 --> 1:11:15.840 That's great for that guy over there, Dan Rubinsteine, for myself, 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:16.719 Tie Hilda Brandt. 1:11:17.000 --> 1:11:18.800 We will talk to you all very very soon. Beat 1:11:18.960 --> 1:11:22.840 bays on peace. Yeah,