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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday and Molly Fry.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

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Speaker 1: We talked about Lucy Stone at Last, who we both

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Speaker 1: thought we had done an episode on already, and we yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean her name's come up a number of times

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Speaker 1: in prior episodes, but not her own one. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I really, as I read about her and did more research,

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Speaker 1: I really was just struck by what a good person

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Speaker 1: she was. Some of it is very sad, though, Like

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Speaker 1: there's an incident early on in her life that I

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Speaker 1: was like, on the one hand, like this clearly shows

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Speaker 1: the impulse of her heart to be very kind, and

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Speaker 1: also no kids should ever do that, which is that

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Speaker 1: when she was still pretty young, she was quite sick

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Speaker 1: on and off for like a year, but she didn't

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Speaker 1: tell her parents and she hid it because she didn't

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Speaker 1: want her mom to have to do her chores for her,

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Speaker 1: which is the sweetest and saddest thing on the planet.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Oh, her dad is a mixed bag. I mean, she

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Speaker 1: definitely seemed like she grieved him, but and I think

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Speaker 1: she loved him, but he wasn't particularly nurturing in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways, Like at one point he said really

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Speaker 1: unkind things to her about her looks, and like, it's

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Speaker 1: weird because there are a lot of writings about how

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Speaker 1: oh Lucy was not very pretty, but then I've seen

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Speaker 1: pictures and some of them she's very, very pretty, and

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Speaker 1: Henry thought she was beautiful, So like, this is not cool.

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Speaker 2: Don't do that to your kids. There was a quote

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Speaker 2: from her.

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Speaker 1: That really both broke my heart and that I really loved,

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Speaker 1: because she was talking about like the difficulty of being

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Speaker 1: the outlier, who is like a woman who refuses to

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Speaker 1: fit into what people expect. She said, my mother always

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Speaker 1: tried to submit. I never could, and how it just

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Speaker 1: made her like angry to even think about it. That

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Speaker 1: pay inequality that we talked about early on. Yeah, her

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Speaker 1: first real taste of it personally was that one of

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Speaker 1: her brothers was a school teacher and when he got six,

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Speaker 1: she substituted for him, and that is how she found

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Speaker 1: out that women were making like half of what men were.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I taught the exact same courses, right, what's

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Speaker 1: up with that? There was one thing about her relationship

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Speaker 1: with Henry that I didn't include because I never really

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Speaker 1: found a real source for it, and it's like a rumory,

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Speaker 1: gossipy thing. But the place I saw at first was

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Speaker 1: on the Library of Congress website where they printed an image.

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Speaker 1: They included an image of her protest pamphlet that she

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Speaker 1: wrote with Henry, and they mentioned like, hey, this wasn't

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Speaker 1: all a sunny marriage, Like there were rumors of infidelity

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Speaker 1: on his part, And I'm like, what where, Like, I don't, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know where that is. It's only ever very

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Speaker 1: like obliquely mentioned, and it's never there's never any detail,

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Speaker 1: which to me is like, so I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: include it in the episode, but if you go looking

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Speaker 1: and you see that, that's what's up. There are two

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Speaker 1: other things about Henry that I wanted to mention. One

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Speaker 1: is that not all of his family was actually okay

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Speaker 1: with this marriage. Oh yeah, even though they all seemed

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Speaker 1: to welcome her and be very friendly with her and

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Speaker 1: admired her when he was like, we're getting married, apparently

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Blackwell in particular and one of their other sisters

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Speaker 1: was like, We're like, yuck, why are you marrying a

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Speaker 1: poor farmer?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh no, I want to love you, Please

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Speaker 1: don't be classistant Gris.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought about.

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Speaker 1: Re airing her episode since she comes up in this one,

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Speaker 1: but we've already run her as a Saturday Classic, and

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Speaker 1: at least so far, we have not done a second

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Speaker 1: round of Saturday Classics for the same episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if at some point we'll revisit that,

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Speaker 1: because now we've been doing Saturday Classics for so long

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Speaker 1: that some of there's some that you know, they were

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Speaker 1: a Saturday Classic years ago.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, but at this point we haven't been. So.

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Speaker 1: There's also this story about Henry and this is aside

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Speaker 1: from his weird racist open letter, which is yeah, freaky digee,

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Speaker 1: but this is to me funnier unless dark, although it

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Speaker 1: is also not very complimentary of him, which is that

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Speaker 1: at the Women's convention in Cleveland, which I think was

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Speaker 1: the eighteen fifty three one, he decided he would like.

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Speaker 2: To speak no, no, oh, no, how'd that go?

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Speaker 1: He apparently rambled for like an hour about what it

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Speaker 1: meant to be like a man and a husband that

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Speaker 1: truly supports their wife. And I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 1: I've actually heard the speech from people. But one of

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Speaker 1: the papers made this comment that is so cutting but

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Speaker 1: also made me chuckle, which was he forgot it was

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Speaker 1: a women's convention.

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Speaker 2: Whoop.

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Speaker 1: I like, whoops. That made me laugh real hard. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how she would have taken that, you know. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: It's always hard to hear criticism of your beloved, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they both heard plenty of it because they

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Speaker 1: were very controversial in many ways, but it was kind

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Speaker 1: of funny. I also didn't talk about the fact that

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Speaker 1: she got thrown out of her church for being too

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Speaker 1: radical at one point, oh wow, because it was very

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Speaker 1: similar to the way that things went down with her schools,

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Speaker 1: where it was like, you have to stop trying to

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Speaker 1: make everybody an abolitionist at your level. You're too radical

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Speaker 1: about it. You need to ease people into these ideas.

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Speaker 1: And she was like nope. So I marvel at her.

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Speaker 1: There's also another beautiful story, and I debated over whether

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Speaker 1: I could tell this because it's very moving to me

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Speaker 1: for some reason that I read in one of her

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Speaker 1: biographies where they were talking about her at the end

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Speaker 1: of her life and we talked about how pragmatic she was,

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Speaker 1: but that as her body was failing towards the end,

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Speaker 1: It was like, as a part of her body would fail,

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Speaker 1: she would thank it for having taken care of her

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Speaker 1: throughout her life.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 1: Instead of being like, oh now my leg won't move anymore,

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Speaker 1: she'd be like, thank you, leg, you carried me a

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Speaker 1: long way.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's not a quote.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's how she worded it, but like,

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Speaker 1: what a beautiful way to approach the end of your life,

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Speaker 1: like being grateful for everything, especially for someone that had

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Speaker 1: not had an easy life. Right. She seemed to always

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Speaker 1: kind of lead with gratitude, which is a really admirable

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Speaker 1: and beautiful thing. Anyway, I have a lot of admiration

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Speaker 1: for Lucy Stone. I'm sure there was some way in

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Speaker 1: which she was a pill, but gosh, she mostly seems

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Speaker 1: pretty great. I don't understand the thing with her husband's

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Speaker 1: weird racist rant, and I don't know how she handled it,

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Speaker 1: but no, that will.

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Speaker 2: Have to stay in mystery.

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Speaker 1: This week on the show, we talked about Ruth Fulton Benedict,

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Speaker 1: and I am pretty sure the first time I ever

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Speaker 1: heard her name was an episode of the TV show

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Speaker 1: Designing Women.

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Speaker 2: That seems right.

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Speaker 1: There's an episode where they go on a trip to

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Speaker 1: this like health spa, and Susanne decides that she's gonna

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Speaker 1: get revenge on Julia and Mary Joe by memorizing all

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Speaker 1: the answers to the copy of Trivial Pursuit. And so

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Speaker 1: she bought two copies of game, one of them to

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Speaker 1: freshly unwrap while they were there so it would look

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Speaker 1: like it was a brand new game, but she bought

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Speaker 1: a second copy. She I'm not really spoiling anything of

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Speaker 1: this thirty some year old TV show, maybe longer than

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Speaker 1: that at this point, just like this is the setup

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Speaker 1: of the whole thing. But they have several of the

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Speaker 1: you know, of the questions that they ask, and one

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Speaker 1: of them is something like, you know, this anthropologist wrote

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Speaker 1: the work patterns of Culture, and Julia and Mary Joe

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Speaker 1: in Unison go Margaret Meade and Charlene goes raw. And

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Speaker 1: that has really stuck in my head. So sometimes I'll

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Speaker 1: just be minding my own business and my brain is like,

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Speaker 1: Margaret mead Raw, that's great, And then Susanne goes, please

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Speaker 1: Ruth Benedict, like it's the most obvious thing in the world.

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of love for that show.

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Speaker 1: There are many aspects of it that have not aged well,

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Speaker 1: and that episode has a lot of them.

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Speaker 2: So just be forewarned if you go to look that up.

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Speaker 1: Delightful show that was written in its tongue, it was.

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Speaker 2: Very written in it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so yeah, there's a lot of body shaming in

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Speaker 1: that episode in particular. So I really struggled as I

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Speaker 1: was writing this on how much to focus on the

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Speaker 1: many things you can criticize about Ruth Benedict's work, because

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Speaker 1: we are talking about anthropological texts from like a hundred

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Speaker 1: years ago at a time when the field was early

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Speaker 1: in its process of trying to break away from a

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Speaker 1: lot of eurocentrism and racism, right, So it's just it's

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Speaker 1: got an underpinning that's fraught. Yeah, But like I still

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about her life and her work

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Speaker 1: and her influence and also acknowledge that, like, if you

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Speaker 1: go read this, there's a lot of stuff in there

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Speaker 1: that is imperfect at best. I watched a lecture that

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Speaker 1: was about the Chrysanthemum and the Sword, which described picking

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Speaker 1: it apart point by point as almost a rite of

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Speaker 1: passage for like anthropologists who were gonna focus on Japan,

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Speaker 1: Like this is sort of like a thing that everybody

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Speaker 1: goes through and their education is like totally picking apart

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Speaker 1: her work because it's so often something that was like

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Speaker 1: attempting to come from a better, more thoughtful place, and

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Speaker 1: then parts of it you're like this, this is not correct.

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Speaker 1: Though she wrote a lot about indigenous cultures in North America,

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Speaker 1: she wrote a lot about the uh like sex and

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Speaker 1: gender in indigenous cultures, including people that we might describe

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Speaker 1: as like broadly in the umbrella of like transgender history today, right,

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Speaker 1: And like, I was not even comfortable using some of

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Speaker 1: the same terms that she used in that because while

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Speaker 1: I think like that was the term that was used

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Speaker 1: with her informants, it's a term that one hundred years

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Speaker 1: later has very different connotations, and it was just all

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Speaker 1: very complicated.

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Speaker 2: So I hope we.

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Speaker 1: Were able to adequately acknowledge the fact that it's like,

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Speaker 1: as a body of work, it's gonna be fraught. But

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Speaker 1: also she was really groundbreaking and influential in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: That's always like the trick when there's a person who

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Speaker 1: is like the most progressive person of a time, and

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Speaker 1: she was pretty progressive in a lot of ways. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they're always the most progressive. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: because of the evolution of thought and culture, which I

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Speaker 1: wonder if she would be fascinated today. Yeah, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: everything has changed in so many ways so quickly.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you read like old biographies of her, there's

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Speaker 1: no mention of Ruth Valentine, there's no mention of Natalie Raymond.

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Speaker 2: There's maybe like rumor.

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Speaker 1: About her having a relationship with Margaret Meade. And as

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Speaker 1: is incredibly often the case, this is not because the

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Speaker 1: people who were writing about her seventy years ago, let's say,

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Speaker 1: were like trying.

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Speaker 2: To hide something.

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Speaker 1: Most of the detail that we have about all those

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Speaker 1: relationships is contained in letters between Ruth Benderdict and Margaret Meade.

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Speaker 1: And Margaret Meade concealed all of those letters until, like

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Speaker 1: it was in the terms of her will that they

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Speaker 1: could not be available for researchers to access until like

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Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties. And it wasn't just because of these relationships.

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Speaker 1: It a lot of it was just, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: gossip in between them about people who were still alive

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Speaker 1: right at the time, right, And you don't necessarily want

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Speaker 1: your person to a correspondence with all of your gossip

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Speaker 1: being open to scholars while you're still alive. So I

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Speaker 1: love the idea of her calculating how long will all

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Speaker 1: the people we talk trash about live?

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Speaker 2: And when is this?

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Speaker 1: When is the public letters? It's it's really only been

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Speaker 1: biographies that have been written since approximately nineteen ninety nine

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Speaker 1: that have talked more about these relationships, especially in a

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Speaker 1: either mentioning them at all or in a concrete way,

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Speaker 1: like the biography that Margaret Mead wrote of Ruth Benedict

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Speaker 1: doesn't mention Natalie Raymond at all.

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Speaker 2: It does mention Ruth Balentine.

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Speaker 1: That quote that we read about her remaining quietly alive

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Speaker 1: until Ruth Falentine got back from California. That's for Margaret

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Speaker 1: Mead's biography. But Margaret me does not elaborate on that

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Speaker 1: relationship in any way, which is unsurprising given that this

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Speaker 1: was like a biography that she wrote in nineteen fifty nine.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, if you read much earlier stuff, you get

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Speaker 1: a very different view of her personal life and her

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Speaker 1: love life because that was the information that historians had

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Speaker 1: to work from. Like that, there are some some biographies

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Speaker 1: that are like in from the nineteen eighties or nineties

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Speaker 1: where there were interviews with people who were like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they were definitely a couple. But even then, like it

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Speaker 1: was many many years after Ruth Benedict had died before

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Speaker 1: any like people were willing to talk about that because

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Speaker 1: there was so much stigma and so much.

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Speaker 2: Illegality and all of that.

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Speaker 1: Right. I also always wonder in those situations where even

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Speaker 1: if some researcher has come across hints of the reality

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Speaker 1: of the relationship, like if it doesn't even occur to them, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Where it's like if someone

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Speaker 1: who is very much heterosexual is doing that research, if

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Speaker 1: it doesn't even cross their mind that this could be

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Speaker 1: a romantic relationship, they're like, oh, they were just good buddies, right.

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Speaker 1: That has I think, you know, left a lot of stories,

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Speaker 1: I'm told because it's just like not not a lens

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Speaker 1: everyone would have well, And I think that's probably less

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Speaker 1: the case for somebody now where I live in a

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Speaker 1: world where in a lot I'm not gonna stay everywhere,

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Speaker 1: But like, there are a lot more like out same

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Speaker 1: sex couples now than when I was a teen, Like

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Speaker 1: I did not know an outgay adult at all.

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Speaker 2: Until I was in college.

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Speaker 1: So like there's just a different worldview in play now

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Speaker 1: versus in the like fifties and sixties.

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Speaker 2: Right, And.

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Speaker 1: As you know, there was a gay but the gay

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Speaker 1: rights movement was becoming more visible to people who were

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Speaker 1: not already part of it. Like that's still just like

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Speaker 1: not a part of people's worldview necessarily. I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: there are people on the Internet who talk about it

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Speaker 1: in like an incredibly dismissive way, Like it's not because

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Speaker 1: historians are dummy dumbheads. It's that everybody is working within

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Speaker 1: the cultural framework that they are living in. And also

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Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, we are talking about people

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Speaker 1: who like intentionally went through all of their own personal

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Speaker 1: writings and destroyed all of the pages that referenced their partner, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: uh So, anyway, anyway, if you go read stuff about

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Speaker 1: her that was written just forever ago, it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: very different. I also just want to once again I

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Speaker 1: recommended this on the show before, but there was a

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Speaker 1: podcast called Sapiens. The fourth season of it is called

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Speaker 1: Our Paths of the Future, and it's all about how

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Speaker 1: black and Indigenous scholars are transforming the field of archaeology.

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Speaker 1: There is some discussion of anthropology as related to it,

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Speaker 1: and the last episode in particular, talks about w. Montague

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Speaker 1: Cobb we've covered on the show before and the collection

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Speaker 1: of human remains that he that he collected for study,

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Speaker 1: and some conversation about like whether it is time to

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Speaker 1: lay all of those people to rest. So I highly

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Speaker 1: recommend the whole season of that podcast. Based on my

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Speaker 1: listening of that season, I feel like probably the whole

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Speaker 1: rest of the podcast is great, but that is the

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Speaker 1: only season of it that I have actually listened to.

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Speaker 1: So so anyway, if you're interested in how the field

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Speaker 1: has changed and continues change through the influence of black

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Speaker 1: and Indigenous scholars, that is a thing to listen to.

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Speaker 1: Happy Friday, whatever is happening on your weekend. I hope

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Speaker 1: it is great. I hope you don't make any embarrassing

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Speaker 1: mistakes in public that can stick around for the rest

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Speaker 1: of your life. We'll be back with a Saturday Classic

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Speaker 1: tomorrow and on Monday with a brand new episode. Stuff

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Speaker 1: You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.