WEBVTT - Golf Architecture with Blake Conant 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.960 And when I find my ball in a fried egg 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.880 Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, Frida Egg, fridagg Bride egg, Lie, 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:13.160 I'm about ready to run. 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:40.479 Off of the hump. Welcome back to the Friday Golf Podcast. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.120 I am your host and Andy Johnson. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:42.519 Uh. 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.519 This week, I'm excited to be joined by one of 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:50.160 golf's young, bright, up and coming golf architects, Blake Cone. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.840 Blake has been on this podcast a few times, but 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.280 with me a long time ago, and since his career 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.920 has really progressed. UH, He's done some solo work on 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.360 his own. He's continued to work a lot with Tom Doak, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.399 and he was a co designer of Old Barnwell, kind 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.800 of one of the big courses in the last five 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.040 years that opened. So I was really excited to chat 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.200 with Blake and kind of just chop it up about 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:22.360 golf architecture. We discussed a ton of stuff, some on topic, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.720 some off topic, but it was a really fun conversation. 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.040 Our flew by. We'll have to have him back on 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:34.280 another time, but before we get to the Blake interview, 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.160 we are also going to add I think most episodes 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:39.840 will do this. We're going to add a Q and 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.479 a segment at the back. We're fielding questions for this 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.319 through fridagg Golf Club, who is also, you know, the 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:52.680 sponsor of this episode. Friday Golf Club our community, our membership. 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.640 We have a forum there where we have a kind 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.760 of a standing post asking for questions, so we'll get 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.680 it through there. Friday Golf Club's a awesome, you know, 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:09.000 community for people that want more from us. We obviously 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.919 you get early access to our events, but we do 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.680 heaps of content, mainly golf course architecture content in there 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.400 as well. There are weekly course profile write ups and 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.640 then we have a pretty vibrant community in the forums 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:27.560 that discuss all things golf. So if you're interested in 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:29.640 getting a little bit more from us, supporting us, it's 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:31.560 one hundred and twenty dollars a year and you can 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.720 join at the Frida egg dot com. All right, let's 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:45.600 get to Blake Conant. All right, welcoming on for the 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:47.320 first time in a really long time with me. At 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.760 least you talked with Garrett, I think before more recently 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.480 than me on this feed. Blake Conant one of my 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.800 favorite people in the golf architecture community, and I'm just 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.720 happy that you could carve out time around, you know, 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.720 appointment viewing for you now in January, which you know, 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.960 I didn't expect to utter these words appointment corn Husker 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.440 Nebraska Cornhusker basketball. 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:15.640 Top five matchup. No, I I appreciate your flexibility. You know, 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.320 the bandwagon was nearly full when I jumped on, but 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:20.480 there was still just a little bit of room left. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.200 So so yeah, I'm able to I'm able to follow 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:24.799 along here. 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.400 I mean, you got Hoiberg. It's that's fun. I mean, 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:31.079 he was so he was so good when he was 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.920 at Iowa State. You know, he figured it might have 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.760 translate to success in Nebraska. But I find it humorous 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.480 that now Indiana's a football school and now Nebraska's at 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.320 basketball school in the Towy Twys. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.440 Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's uh, the parallels are almost 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.880 a little scary, and it's it's particularly demoralizing knowing that 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:56.840 for basketball to be good, the universe says that football 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:01.000 must be bad. So so here we are, you know, 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:06.040 thirty years since the national championship. Still still plugging away. 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.680 I'm sure Kai Golbi will appreciate starting starting this chat 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.440 with a Husker football and Husker basketball mentioned. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.920 Well, yeah, it's always nice to warm up on something. 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.120 Some people get frustrated with that, but it's like, you 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.080 know what, if you go for a run, you warm 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:21.919 up before you go for a run. We're warming up 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.000 before we get into get into the meat and bones 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.360 of meat and potatoes of this chat. 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:31.520 Ied the podcast warm up for for for for the record. 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:36.200 Really, yep, why I want? 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:39.120 I want to just dive right in or whoever I'm 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.600 listening to, I want them to dive in. I don't 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:43.320 I don't want. I don't need to hear what you 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.280 had for breakfast. I don't need to hear like how 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.279 much butter you use? Like no, I'm listening to this 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.919 podcast to find out about politics or tech or Husker 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:54.200 football or whatever. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.719 I'm listening to. Like, just just jump right into that. 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.600 All right. Well, you know I'm gonna start seeking your 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.480 your golf courses. If you ever have a hole that 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.760 that starts, that's a gentle handshake. I'm gonna say, Hey, 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:12.719 wtf uh? I wanted to dive into the craziest stuff 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.400 your your first hole better be the craziest stuff every time. 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.520 Oh that's a good Uh yeah, all right, I'll put 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.880 my money where my mouth is. See who what was 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:27.800 the was it Walt Whitman? It said, you know, do 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:29.080 I contradict myself? 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:29.400 Yes? 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:34.560 Uh something? What's the quote? Something like that? But yes, 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.839 it's like, yeah, no, I contradict me. I contradict myself 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.800 a ton, So so I'm sure I'll start every first 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:42.000 hole with a gentle handshake. 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:45.960 Well, you know, old bar Well one of one of 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.040 the courses in your design profile. Uh, you know you 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.800 and and Bridesteiner Co. Designed it. The first hole is 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.440 relatively gentle. I would say it's a short Part five. 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.960 One of the things I'm curious about with it is 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.680 the mounding, the fronting mound. So for those that haven't 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.600 been there, which is probably the vast majority of this podcast, 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.600 there are like these mounds I've never I've never really 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.560 seen it on an American golf course before, where you 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.599 have these two mounds that cut in front and it 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:20.880 kind of obscures your view off the first tee. But 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:23.720 then there's a little hole, a little like slot in 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.080 them that you walk through. What was the idea of 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:31.120 those mounts? It just curious off the top question since 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:32.680 we're talking about first holes. 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.880 Yeah, they were, you know, they were a product of 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:42.200 like the the scale being so big, of like where 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.520 do you start? Fair ways? Where do you where do 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:49.800 you end? And stop grassing lines sometimes and when it's 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.760 so wide open sometimes that's hard to do gracefully. And 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.440 I don't know, we were sort of okay with not 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.720 being graceful. I think it was it was it was 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.400 an honest thing to be intentional about what we were 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.280 doing out there. So part of it was just like, yeah, 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.080 we want burms to be a bit of a theme. 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.120 Why not do that right on the first t Let 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:14.960 this burm be the start of the fairway in a 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:19.800 way to start the fairway and then also you know hard, 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.560 you know, initiate sort of a theme that we're going 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.840 to have throughout the golf course. And that one's more 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:32.160 like aesthetic and provides a glimpse into what you're going 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:33.920 to see later on. But a lot of the berms 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.720 out there are functional as far as like steering storm water. 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.560 So I'd say fifty percent of them serve a purpose 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.160 for you know, functionality of storm water or for strategy 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:45.640 of golf. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.280 Yeah, I I kind of liked it. It felt like 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.239 I was like entering the gates of the golf course 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:59.040 in a way symbolically, like you walk through and you're 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.280 walking through this little hole in the you know, the 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.880 berm is about as tall as you know, a human being, 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:07.000 maybe a little shorter than human. 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.760 Shorter waist high, yeah, waster belly button. 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:09.920 Hi. 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.240 Maybe I think it's a little taller that it could 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:17.880 be my it could be my memory. The but you 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.560 know what about you know, I guess like one of 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.000 the things that stands out about you got your guys' 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.000 work there is that we've been in this era of 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:32.680 of like naturalism, the idea of making everything kind of 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.400 blend in. What was the thinking, uh, you know, obviously 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.040 you just alluded to the the function of the burms 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:44.359 with moving storm water, but the use of these berms 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.440 and the you know, they they look, they appear and 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.040 are band made and they kind of cut against that. 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.160 Was that an intentional decision? 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:54.080 Yeah? 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:58.000 Just stylistically, like the variety of styles of stuff we 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.240 have out there and sort of the not trying to 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:05.520 hide what you're doing type of thing that was certainly intentional. 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.000 You know, it's like we had a good site, we 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.840 didn't have a great site. I think if you were 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.680 you know, if our site was through sand dunes or 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.160 something like you know, Childer's Hall or Sandhills or wherever, 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.520 you might not have made as many of those choices. 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.319 But for us, you know, that was something where we 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:31.120 were like, it was a way to be honest of hey, we're. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:31.439 Going to. 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:35.680 We need to make the golf work. We want to 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.080 try to make the golf strategy cool. There's no excuse 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.960 not to have a great hole if you've got a 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:49.040 blank canvas. So oftentimes we're you know, we're doing a 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.240 lot of heavy shaping. I wouldn't call it earthwork, and 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.839 you're and you're moving dirt around you. You're you're cutting 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.360 two feet here, you're plopping it over there, and a 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.080 lot of times the goal is to like blend that 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.120 in and make it look natural. For us, it was, well, 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.000 let's PLoP it here. It's going to serve a purpose 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.960 for the golf strategy, but we don't necessarily need to 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:10.440 like blend it into nature. So that that was something 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.400 that we're you know, it was just like we've seen 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.800 that tons of great golf courses we've been to of 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.000 you know, the theme is there is no theme, there's 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:20.960 no bunker style. And a lot of these great golf 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.760 courses like places Brian and I love so much, like 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.640 National Golf Links or Garden City or you know, even 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.520 old photos of pine valleys, so that kind of gives 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.559 you permission to It's like, well, if they can do it, 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:33.480 why can't we do it? 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:38.200 You know. Yeah, Somewhere somewhere it got lost that like 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:42.080 bunkers are are hazards, and you know, I think it 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.600 probably came with the you know, technical precision that that 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:50.440 modern machinery gave people that you could have that like 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:56.959 that succinct style of bunker throughout a golf course, or 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.439 you know, sometimes what the sites gave them. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.800 Yeah, and that's you know, That's what's kind of interesting, 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:08.240 is like there's this intention to have like a sight 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.679 wide prescription of we want all flash bunkers or grass 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.920 face bunkers, and what you find out is like within 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.200 each site there's little micro sites where hey, a flashbunker 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.520 doesn't work here, Like this is way better off being 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:26.240 something that's grass spaced, because we're really fighting surface drainage, 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:27.760 and we'd have to do a ton of work to 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:29.480 steer the water away from it for it to be 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:33.600 flash faced, or hey, a bunker doesn't even belong here. 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.800 We can achieve the same thing with mounds. It's way 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:42.360 less expensive. It actually tends to challenge the better player 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.400 more if you've got something in place of sand. You know, 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:50.760 it's like you guys who are really good, don't like 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:54.120 hitting out of awkward stances, out of rough You want 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.800 to be able to control your ball, control the flight 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.400 of it. And that's the thing where it's like hitting 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.000 a shot out of off for a fifteen handicap sometimes 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.360 is welcome, you. 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:08.960 Know, yeah, absolutely, I you know, it's like one of 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:10.840 the things you grow up. When you grow up caddying, 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.760 you realize is like sometimes having like a little bit 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.400 of grass in the ball sitting up is a good 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.960 thing for a lot of golfers. And the since we talked, 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.960 you know, it's a number of years have passed, but 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.280 you've gone from where I think you're you know, you're 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.240 still in this process of becoming like a full blown 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:36.320 solo architect, but you've gone from a shaper to where 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:40.959 you have a substantial amount of your own work. What's 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:43.320 what's the transition been? 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:49.319 Like pretty easy because it's just. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.480 You know, there isn't a lot of like cold calling 0:12:54.960 --> 0:13:00.439 or me like trying to level jump. A lot of 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.960 a lot of stuff that's come my way is just 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.760 come my way organically, and it's not forced, you know. 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:12.280 And I think that's a product of just like finding, 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.000 you know, finding the part of this profession that makes 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:18.200 you happy and wanting to do that and like steering 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.840 yourself towards that a little bit. So for me, that's 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.400 that's the creative side of it. It's like it's the 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.040 planning of a golf course, of a new golf course, 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.920 or master planning for what you're going to do for 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.800 renovation or restoration, and then like executing the work, like 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:39.560 getting in the dirt and building the features. So for me, 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:45.160 it's in an industry that is very dependent on what, 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:49.240 like the economy is doing, it's good to kind of 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.360 have that that that baseline of like Okay, no matter 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.120 if the economy is you know, up here or down here, 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.040 if I enjoy doing these things, I should always be 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.599 able to find a way to do them when the 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.080 economy is going goods. Maybe that means I'm like getting 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:12.760 solo design work on my own, and if things are slow, 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:17.160 maybe that means renovation work or I'm helping Tom with something, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:21.360 you know, dope with something either shaping for him or 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.880 running a job. And so that's sort of like I'm 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:29.480 in that transition now of I'd be happy to live 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.520 in that you know, quote unquote purgatory forever because I'm 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.680 just I'm happy doing what I'm doing because I have 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:39.640 the opportunity to build cool golf and the credit is 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:44.200 like a secondary thing. But you know, I've always said like, 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.680 as long as Tom keeps working and keeps wanting to 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.200 have me around, like I'm willing to keep learning from 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.320 him and keep working with him. It's a the people 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:57.760 he surrounds himself with are really cool and he's, you know, 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.480 one of two guys getting the best projects the world. 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.040 So it's just an opportunity to to build golf and 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.680 learn from him at a really high level. So right now, 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.960 it's just like purgatory is a very negative way to 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:17.240 put it, but yeah, it's this like transitional phase where 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:19.400 I'm getting to do stuff with Brian, I'm getting to 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:21.280 do stuff on my own, I'm getting to do stuff 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.800 with Tom, and it's all really fun because I'm just 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:24.840 working with cool people. 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:30.400 Uh. PJ would say that, you know, you know Ball, 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.600 knowing Ball and working closely with Tom. What what's something 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.720 about him and his work that kind of blows you 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:45.200 away that maybe isn't recognizable to the regular golfer. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:54.240 It's you know, I think one of the cool things 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.680 about uh, you know, Tom's known for his routings and 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:03.040 his greens, and I don't think a lot of people 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:08.840 can comprehend like how those come together, you know, but 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.160 he's he's given glimpses through his books or through some 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.840 of the podcasts that you guys do about his process 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:16.280 for both. 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:17.480 One of the cool things of like. 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.120 Building a green with Tom is is the way he 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:25.480 views it and edits it, which he'll go, you know 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:26.880 a lot of us when we get on a green, 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.080 we're looking at like the internal contours and what the 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:33.360 green is doing. Tom will walk the perimeter and like 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.960 look at all the recovery shots and he's trying to 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.520 diagnose like is it impossible from over here? Am I 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.040 okay with that? Like if I miss here, what shots 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.360 do I have to these pins? And so so his 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:53.239 editing sort of like takes place through through that process, 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.320 especially when building greens. And you know, the first time 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.160 I saw it, saw him do it, and then working 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.160 with him and doing it, it was just like, you know, 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.800 it's a really eye opening way to build because then 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:08.640 you you just sort of like you broaden the scope 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.879 of what you're looking at and you start to you know, 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.200 Clyde Johnson, my good friend who's over in the UK, 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:16.560 talks a lot about like the thirty yards in front 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.000 of the green, like that should be the most captivating 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.480 part of the golf course or as captivating as the green, 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.240 And when you're building, agree with Tom, you start to realize, 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.040 like the surrounds and the recovery shots are what makes 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:32.080 it so interesting. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:35.840 Yeah, it's kind of like I think a term in 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:40.800 golf architecture that people, you know, maybe a novice wouldn't 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.080 really understand is like when you talk about the green complex, 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.840 it should extend probably twenty yards around it, right, would 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.080 you agree with that, Like would you consider things that 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.399 you're building in front of the green as part of 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.160 the overarching green complex? 0:17:59.080 --> 0:17:59.800 Yeah? Totally. 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.320 I mean we're thinking about when we say we're shaping 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.800 a green, like you're you're doing all of that and 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.120 typically you're you're shaping the tie ins to the next 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.800 tee or you're even shaping the next tee too, because 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.800 all that sort of blends together is one green complex. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:17.520 And yeah, whether. 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.240 It's twenty yards out or you know, I typically think 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.800 of like wherever your grassing line is going to be. 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:26.640 Sometimes that's nine paces out, or you know, a head 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.000 that's on the green that throws out can throw seventy 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.200 five feet, so that'd be twenty five yards out from 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.600 the green sometimes that you've got to shape. So yeah, 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.040 all that, all that goes into it. It's a it's 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.359 a big job to build to you know, to have 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.920 a completed green complex. 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.320 When you're when you're working on these projects and you 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.360 know to this, you you just completed a renovation project 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.320 on your own, so you can you can speak to 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:57.720 this now sure Haven versus you know, working with Tom 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.760 uh You know, when you're working with Tom, you are 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.320 are together with a number of associates that are building greens. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.160 Or at Old Barnwell you and Brian Schneider are both 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.640 building greens. What's the different dynamic when you're working by 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:18.720 yourself versus when you're working collectively with a group, and 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.960 what you know are the things that you like or 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:23.320 maybe don't like about either. 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:29.640 Yeah, you know, working with Tom, one of the things 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.520 that I picked on picked up on quickly is he's 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:36.919 willing to hear ideas from everybody and filter them accordingly. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:40.439 So when I was an intern at Dismal River, we 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.080 you know, one of his something he wanted to do 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:48.000 is drive around with every intern and spend a day 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.399 with them, and so he was constantly he was like 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.560 picking my brain for things that I would do, and 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.800 most of them were flushed down the toilet. But that 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:57.680 was always that was a good reminder of like, yeah, man, 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.280 like a good idea can come from anywhere, So the 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.840 process of building a green or the process of doing 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:07.359 the work doesn't really change. And then that's something that like, Okay, 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:10.680 the roles are reversed. But I had shaping help up 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:14.240 there from two younger guys who have worked with Doglott 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:19.199 and Brian Scheider, Andre Buchco and Great Carlton, and you know, 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:24.320 asking what they would do, or you know, trying to 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.840 get input from them of what we should do, or 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:28.800 you know, a lot of it's me saying like, Hey, 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:33.119 I'm trying to do this over here, and sometimes I 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:34.919 have a really clear picture in my head and sometimes 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.639 I don't. And you know, that's that's the fun of 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:42.080 building golf, whether you're the one whose stuff is being 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:48.000 edited or you're the editor. You know, having that process 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.119 in place of like a good idea can come from 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:56.760 anywhere is important. So as far as me building greens, 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:58.720 it's like sometimes when you're a Tom, you're willing to 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.480 like take a chance. It's because he's a safety net, 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:03.880 so you can build something wacky and he can come 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:06.040 around and just be like, yeah, that's stupid. You know, 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.639 when you're doing yourself, you kind of got to be 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:12.880 your own safety net, or you've got to like you've 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:14.800 got to be editing in the back of your head too, 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.040 or just realizing like yeah, you know, sometimes it's like 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:19.960 what would Tom say about this, Well, I'd probably say 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.439 lower at six inches, and it's you know, the golf's 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:24.800 going to be the same, it's just going to be 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.480 that much more accommodating for the higher handicapper. So yeah, 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.440 sometimes his voice is in the back of my head, 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:32.600 or Schneider's voice in the back of my head, or Iverson, 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.240 But yeah, it's nice. You know, it's nice being able 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:40.520 to like, yeah, be the person. Then who's you know, 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:44.440 providing mentorship or tutelage to other young guys. 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:50.040 In your career? You know, you you're still young by 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.520 you know, golf architecture standards. You're you're very young. You know, 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.679 are there architectural ideas that you've grown less interested in 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.320 as you've gained experience, like you know, kind of take 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.920 us on your journey as as an architect who thinks 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.840 about this all the time. Are there things that you've 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.280 drawn less interested in and likewise more interested in? 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:17.879 Yeah, so this will probably ruffle your feathers. But I 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.119 I used to love Langford and think he was like 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.040 the best architect in the world, and I he's the 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:27.040 more Langford stuff I see in the older I get, 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:31.159 it's like the less I appreciate it. I shouldn't say 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:33.320 less I appreciate it, but more I'm like coming back 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.280 down to earth, you know, like that Sonya is not 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:39.679 a nine, you know what I mean? Where I originally 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:40.440 thought it was. 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:45.800 So that and I think what about it has you know, 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.760 kind of like as you've seen more what about the 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:53.040 Langford work? In particular, you have have you just cooled 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.760 on Not that I don't. It's not that you hate Langford, 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:57.280 you just aren't as high on him. 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:00.520 No, And a lot of it is just the raised 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:04.040 green pads. I think the shapes are really cool. I 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:08.920 think some of the strategy that he was evoking was 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.680 really it was like really provocative, and it was harkening 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.120 back to some of the stuff that see bing McDonald 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:16.640 was doing, but he was doing it with his own 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:20.760 little flavor, and so I think like the bunker strategy 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:22.639 and the style that he did it was really cool. 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:28.359 But but a product of how he of his process 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:30.439 and of his technique is just like a ton of 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:36.320 raised greens that are only received through an aerial shot 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:40.879 swich is kind of cool because in a way I 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:45.840 can like I can put that into my brain and say, Okay, 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:50.280 what like what if Langford built a punch bowl or 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.399 if length you know, it's like, how would Langford have 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:55.359 built a punch bowl? And then you could just like 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:57.440 I'm going to try to build a Langford punch bowl, 0:23:57.960 --> 0:23:59.040 you know, where I'm gonna try. 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.000 To raise up frau that a big ball. 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:06.679 Yeah yeah, or just yeah, So there's there's things like 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:11.880 that that you you know, as you refine your taste 0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:17.040 and see more golf, you just start to it's you know, 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.200 it's like it's like placing stuff in order. 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:20.399 You know. 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:23.480 It's like, if what I had seen twenty golf courses, 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:25.880 Lasonia might have been number two, But now that I've 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:30.159 seen you know, four or five hundred golf courses like Lasonium, 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:35.160 it's not number two anymore. So though, you know, it's 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:38.920 that kind of stuff that's like it's, uh, it's it's 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:40.840 fun to pick on him a little bit because I 0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:44.000 know you guys are such Langford lovers, but I mean. 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:46.360 As similar a boat as you. 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:46.520 Like. 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.600 You know, law Sonia was a course I played as 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:52.040 a kid, and I was like, this is the most 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:54.000 one of the most amazing courses I've ever played in 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:58.440 my life. And you know, I think for given public 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:03.240 golf in America like los Sonia, for the price they 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:06.520 charge and the quality of product, has got to be 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:11.480 a top ten facility if you combine price and product. Yeah, 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.600 it just you know, part of golf is you know, 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:18.800 it just you know, there's a lot of other places 0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:22.040 that are really cool. What I find fascinating about it 0:25:22.080 --> 0:25:25.240 is like, you know, there was the Perry Maxwell. I 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:28.199 think there was a Perry Maxwell Langford beef. You know 0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:33.359 Maxwell who you know he had basically the complete polar 0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:37.840 opposite style of Langford. For those that don't know who 0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:42.080 we're talking about, is like, you know, William Blankford and 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:47.920 Theodore Moreau built really like manufactured, big feature stuff, as 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:52.240 Blake hinted at, like everything kind of goes up versus 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:56.600 Perry Maxwell was like extremely economical and I would say 0:25:56.720 --> 0:26:01.639 pretty pretty naturalist type of off architecture where you know, 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:04.200 he's he's trying to move as little earth as he 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:06.399 can and if he's doing that, he's trying to blend 0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:10.040 it into nature. But they you know, there was a 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:13.960 lot of There was some Perry Maxwell writing about like 0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:17.840 how you know those that use steam shovels are just 0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:21.280 you know, don't don't have skill effectively, is what he 0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:24.240 was saying. And if you think about it, they were 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:26.600 working in the same area at the same time and 0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:29.120 oftentimes renovating each other's courses. 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:34.120 Yeah, yep, I will a hot take on Perry Maxwell 0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:38.760 is I don't I can't think of a course he 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:42.400 worked on that he's well known for where Dean Woods 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:47.919 was not his shaper. Dean Woods helped build Dornic Hills 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:51.640 and he was the point man at Crystal Downs. And yeah, 0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:54.800 if you start to like pull that thread a little bit, 0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:58.120 you'll realize, like Dean Woods was everywhere that Perry Maxwell 0:26:58.240 --> 0:27:01.480 is most well known for. So it's one of those 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:05.760 things to lining. It's like, you know, everybody wants to 0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:09.040 like glorify the shaper and you know, make a big 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:10.800 name out of that person who's like, oh, it's like, 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:13.080 well who Tom who shape your greens? You know, it's 0:27:13.119 --> 0:27:15.680 like but you start to, yeah, you start to look 0:27:15.720 --> 0:27:17.240 into Perry Maxwell a little bit, and it's like, yeah, 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:19.439 maybe Dean Woods deserves a little bit of credit. You know, 0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:22.000 maybe he's like seems like he was like the Eric 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:23.879 iverson to Perry Maxwell. 0:27:24.040 --> 0:27:24.280 You know. 0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:28.639 I think that's an interesting part with like Langford and Moreau, 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:31.919 Like if you go play William Blakeford course that Moreau 0:27:32.119 --> 0:27:37.119 wasn't involved with, you're kind of like, uh whatever, And 0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:41.640 and I think it probably is underrepresented. And I mean 0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:44.560 I know that there's a lot of that with with 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:48.199 Donald Ross too. It was depending on the shaper, you know, 0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:52.400 the or the construction Foreman effectively. I think a lot 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:55.320 of times it was referred to, you know, the golf 0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:59.520 courses like you know greatly, you know, even stylistically can 0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:01.840 change from from course of course. 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:05.239 Yeah, I mean, I mean we could. We could go 0:28:05.280 --> 0:28:08.399 down a rabbit hole too. Of Like you know, Mackenzie's 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:11.639 six weeks in Australia, it's like, god, he just like 0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:15.320 you walk into Markham right, like if he if he's 0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:18.240 a dud, then what what becomes of all this stuff? 0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:18.600 You know? 0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:25.240 That's I mean, same thing with Hunter and Maxwell to 0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:27.560 a certain extent. I was just reading a thing that 0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:32.360 Josh Pennitt posted this week about like how Mackenzie came 0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:34.119 back to look at the Metal Club and he was 0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:38.040 really thrilled with Hunter's work. And it's like he left 0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:40.520 and he would just he would just come back and 0:28:40.560 --> 0:28:43.000 the course would be done and he would like you know, 0:28:43.080 --> 0:28:47.080 you think about like that's the way certain sub architects 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:50.120 work today. You know, there's an infamous story of Nick 0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:53.520 Faldo gant gloss on opening day at one of his 0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:56.400 golf courses, driving to the golf course because you know 0:28:56.440 --> 0:29:00.400 he had been there. But that is the way some 0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:04.280 people people still work where it's like, hey, here are 0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:08.200 your plans, go build it. But the era we've gotten in, 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:13.040 you know, is much more of a craftsmanship, you know, 0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:17.960 era of golf design, where you know, the the InVogue 0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:22.320 popular golf architects are the ones that are either doing 0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:25.120 the work or or pretty attuned to the work and 0:29:25.160 --> 0:29:26.800 the people that are doing the work. 0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:32.360 Yeah, I think so. And it's something that's like it's 0:29:32.400 --> 0:29:35.600 been said for well before this era, but it's it's 0:29:35.640 --> 0:29:39.920 just really hard to draw plans for every golfer and 0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:42.280 every detail of every golful and just like nail it 0:29:42.320 --> 0:29:45.320 on the first try, you know. And and the guys 0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:49.160 who are design bid you know, just they draw plans. 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:50.920 They know that they spend a lot of time like 0:29:51.080 --> 0:29:56.960 visiting site and editing stuff. But you know a lot 0:29:57.000 --> 0:30:01.000 of times when that's the process, it's like, oh, make 0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:03.479 these edits and I'll be back in five days. And 0:30:03.520 --> 0:30:07.880 then it's like you're either there's either like a latency 0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:11.440 with that or you're kind of twiddling your thumbs just 0:30:11.480 --> 0:30:14.240 like waiting around, or you're you're going and working on 0:30:14.320 --> 0:30:16.520 other stuff. And so it's like it's nice to be 0:30:16.560 --> 0:30:19.880 able to a like be building the stuff, be there 0:30:19.880 --> 0:30:24.440 every day, but also like not have that lost in 0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:29.520 translation moment or the like playing the telephone game trying 0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:33.800 to relay an idea through four different people. So it's 0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:37.320 I think there's there's an efficiency that you see when 0:30:37.360 --> 0:30:40.480 it's like a design build product project that the clients 0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:43.840 maybe really like if they're just like if they're touring 0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:47.320 through and you know, Gil hands on a dozer building 0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:50.000 a green and there's like three excavators around him, It's like, man, 0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:52.719 it's fuck, Like work's happening, Like this is awesome, Like 0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:56.040 I'm getting my money's worth here, you know. So I 0:30:56.560 --> 0:31:00.080 think it's got that appeal more than anything I've. 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:04.560 I think that there's just a power of interests aligning 0:31:04.840 --> 0:31:12.200 as well in the design build, where like you're you're 0:31:12.200 --> 0:31:16.240 more I think you can run into issues, and I 0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:20.600 think there are like great contractors and they're mediocre contractors 0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:25.320 and bad contractors, like any any industry. But one of 0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:28.479 the things that you know, architects and that you know 0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:32.560 you've obviously worked mostly in the design build, you know, 0:31:32.760 --> 0:31:35.560 set up, but one of the things is like the 0:31:35.680 --> 0:31:40.400 architects if they're contracting the shapers, you know, and working 0:31:40.400 --> 0:31:43.280 with the shapers regularly they are going to be aligned 0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:47.680 on the product, and the architect aligns with the club 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:51.800 or course that they're building. Where it gets tricky is like, 0:31:52.040 --> 0:31:53.800 you know, and this is just you have to use 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:56.800 contractors for stuff, regardless of you know, like you're building 0:31:56.800 --> 0:31:59.240 golf course, you're going to use some contractors. But the 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:02.959 contractors are just trying to get the thing done for 0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:06.080 the most part, and they aren't as invested in the 0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:10.360 architecture or the finished product as they are their budget timeline. 0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:14.720 And I know I'm generalizing. I don't want any contractors 0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:17.360 to get after me. I'm like I said, there are 0:32:17.400 --> 0:32:20.520 good ones, at bad ones and mediocre ones, but like, 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:24.920 just in general, inherently a contractor enters a different set 0:32:25.040 --> 0:32:30.640 of kind of goals and variables to a project. 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:39.000 Yeah, yes, and no, I generally agree with you. So 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:40.240 I'm not going to you know, I'm not going to 0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:44.240 like rebut what you're saying. But also I do think 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:48.560 there's this bottom line of like everybody answers to the client, 0:32:48.960 --> 0:32:51.680 and then whoever is representing the client on site every 0:32:51.760 --> 0:32:55.280 day kind of like has the final say. So a 0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:57.800 lot of it, a lot of the decision making is 0:32:57.920 --> 0:33:01.360 driven from the top down. Like if the client has 0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:07.840 you know, empowered Brian and me with agency and autonomy 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:10.560 to do what we please and just make the best 0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:14.880 golf course we can, then whether the contractor is good, bad, 0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:18.520 or indifferent, it's they're they're going to fall online because 0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:22.320 it's like, well, either like that that's the mandate coming 0:33:22.320 --> 0:33:24.480 from the top and if I charge more like the 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:26.520 client is okay with that because it's all on an 0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:31.160 effort to make the golf course good. So I think 0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:35.440 they're you know, I've been lucky to to not be 0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:37.760 on a lot of like horrible projects where it's just 0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:42.840 gone haywire. So maybe my perspective is like a little 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:45.920 bit of rainbows at sunshine and I need to Yeah, 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:48.480 I need to get in the real world a little. 0:33:48.200 --> 0:33:50.680 Bit, or you you guys, get outside your bubble. 0:33:51.760 --> 0:33:52.360 You should have been. 0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:54.960 Able to back in ninety six when there, you know, 0:33:55.040 --> 0:33:57.120 it's like, yeah, I didn't. I don't have that perspective. 0:33:58.400 --> 0:34:02.800 But you know, for the most part, it's like even 0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:08.120 going back to like twenty thirteen when I that was 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:12.200 like the first renovation restoration Jabozon with Brian at Medina 0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:18.239 and just you know, contractors of that era and then 0:34:18.360 --> 0:34:21.400 even like ten years later, like they've gotten a lot better. 0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:24.759 And I think there was some pushback because back then 0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:28.359 it was still like shaping was still a thing that 0:34:28.560 --> 0:34:34.600 they did and budgeted for, and so when you took 0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:37.359 that out of their nut, that was like that was 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:40.840 maybe that's where a lot of their margins were coming from, 0:34:41.000 --> 0:34:43.160 and they didn't know what It's like, well, shit, now 0:34:43.160 --> 0:34:47.560 we have to build our margins in you know, drain pipeer, gravel, 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:49.560 you know, whatever it is. And it's like so I 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:52.879 think there was always some animosity and friction when when 0:34:52.920 --> 0:34:55.319 that was the case. And I think contractors are just 0:34:55.360 --> 0:34:58.319 like a lot of them now like working in the 0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:03.520 design build way because you know, they're it's not a hobby. 0:35:03.680 --> 0:35:06.200 They still need to make money, right, It's like they're 0:35:06.200 --> 0:35:09.280 not they're not doing it for the love of putting 0:35:09.360 --> 0:35:12.359 in drain pipes. So everybody understands it, like they need 0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:16.840 to make money. But they've figured out their business model 0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:19.920 just just through time and through trial and error, Like, Okay, 0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:22.040 what's the best way to work with design build guys. 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:24.600 It's like, well, a lot of us are just prima 0:35:24.640 --> 0:35:26.640 donnas who want what we want and like we don't 0:35:26.680 --> 0:35:28.799 want to grease the machine or fuel it up. And 0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:31.600 it's like they're just cool doing that because it's a 0:35:31.600 --> 0:35:33.759 little line item that they can build for and like 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.680 everything's great and copesthetic on site and it's like, yeah, 0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:39.360 whatever you need. So so I think a lot of 0:35:39.400 --> 0:35:41.919 them have gotten like there's a ton of really good 0:35:41.960 --> 0:35:46.239 contractors out there. And I will say just to you know, 0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:51.439 like I know Trip Davis has He's got his own 0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:54.240 shaper who travels around with him and builds all this stuff. 0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:57.840 I think Andy Stables had uses his own shapers. 0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:01.120 So even like like er Green and works with McDonald's 0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:01.920 sons everywhere. 0:36:02.200 --> 0:36:04.839 Yeah, so I think even these guys who maybe work 0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:08.120 a little bit different than Doak or the way we 0:36:08.160 --> 0:36:10.120 work where we want to shape everything, it's like they 0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:14.640 still exercise their control over like, hey that I want 0:36:14.680 --> 0:36:17.080 my guy building the greens because we have a language 0:36:17.120 --> 0:36:20.880 that we speak that makes communication easier. May you know, 0:36:20.920 --> 0:36:23.680 it's going to be more efficient. He knows what I like. 0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:26.240 So I think I think a lot of those guys 0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:28.400 do have people like that they travel around with and 0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:29.000 they work with. 0:36:30.360 --> 0:36:33.160 Uh. In that answer, you know, you hit on a 0:36:33.239 --> 0:36:35.800 subject I wasn't planning to get to I didn't realize 0:36:35.840 --> 0:36:38.320 that you were a part of the Madida one project. 0:36:39.560 --> 0:36:44.360 That that is. I think it's the most underrated course 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:45.080 in Chicago. 0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:49.880 It's the most underrated factory and camel in Chicago. And 0:36:50.320 --> 0:36:51.800 yours truly built the bunker. 0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:54.320 So yeah, you build the camel bunker. 0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:58.880 Yeah, I rough shaped it in and my man Raffulio 0:36:59.640 --> 0:37:02.680 finished up Brian. Brian might give her a Fulio a 0:37:02.680 --> 0:37:07.560 little more credit than than than me, but yeah, and then. 0:37:07.520 --> 0:37:09.200 Uh, we had a dinner. 0:37:09.719 --> 0:37:11.640 They put on a dinner when Tom was in town, 0:37:11.680 --> 0:37:13.960 and they you know, I was lucky enough to get 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:15.799 an invite. It was like it must have been like 0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:18.160 the Greens Committee or something. But I sat next to 0:37:18.200 --> 0:37:20.360 a gentleman who explained to me the difference between a 0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:23.360 Dromedary and a Bactrian camel and why they chose to 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:27.560 have a bactory and camel for uh, for the for 0:37:27.640 --> 0:37:30.879 the camel at Madonna number one and Dramedary is one 0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:33.440 hump bactory and is two hump. You can remember that 0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:37.640 because Bactriyan is a sideways b Laying down. 0:37:37.920 --> 0:37:40.640 This sounds like information that's gonna be really valuable when 0:37:40.640 --> 0:37:43.319 your kid asked you about camels. Yeah, and maybe not 0:37:43.400 --> 0:37:44.160 this podcast. 0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:47.960 Oh yeah, no, no, this is very useful information anyway. 0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:52.280 I will say obligatory take a picture of the camel 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:53.839 bucker every time up there. 0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:58.520 Yes, no, so that that project. I finished grad school. 0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:03.200 I had jury the after graduating, and then so my 0:38:03.280 --> 0:38:05.560 last thing I did in Athens, Georgia was jury duty, 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:09.080 and then I drove up to Medina and helped finish 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:11.480 up there. Mike mccarton had done a lot of like 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:15.920 the work under Brian who was running the job, so 0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:18.200 there were only a few bunkers left to build, and 0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:21.000 then it was just like finishing greens and doing finished 0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:21.680 work and stuff. 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.200 All right, I've got a couple, you know, just kind 0:38:27.200 --> 0:38:35.560 of general golf golf architecture questions for you. What's the 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:38.640 golf locale that you think in all of your travels 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:41.600 you alluded to seeing four or five hundred courses. What's 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:46.600 the golf locale that every golfer should go to in 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:49.600 their lives if you had to pick one, I. 0:38:49.480 --> 0:38:55.000 Had to pick one. I mean, I guess it goes 0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:57.520 without saying like the UK, like you just go to 0:38:58.840 --> 0:38:59.399 see St. 0:38:59.400 --> 0:39:02.080 Andrews. It's like everybody should go do that. 0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:05.160 So maybe take that off the board because that's kind 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:09.400 of like that's that's sort of like everybody's pick. 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:15.680 I feel like that is the answer. And what people 0:39:15.760 --> 0:39:18.680 need to realize is you can just go and you 0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:21.680 could go and sit there, enter the ballot every day 0:39:21.680 --> 0:39:23.960 and if you don't win, you play on an old 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:28.520 Tom course, the new course or the course, the Harry 0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:30.480 Colt course, Like just do that. 0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:31.480 Yeah. 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:35.719 I mean, I don't know if there's like this hesitancy 0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:37.960 to like to rent a car or to just be 0:39:40.080 --> 0:39:42.080 just be free over there. But it's like you can 0:39:42.480 --> 0:39:44.560 got like you just go rent a car and you 0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:46.920 could like you can just have your own wheels and 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:50.799 drive around. And we're so used to driving far in 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:55.040 the United States, like you're like the road warrior when 0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:57.319 you drive your own car over in the UK. Like 0:39:57.840 --> 0:40:02.719 I remember, I played Press in the morning and then 0:40:02.760 --> 0:40:05.640 I drove to cruden Bay and I played cruden Bay 0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:08.920 in the afternoon, and then I drove back down to 0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:11.440 Saint Andrews and I was I was talking to somebody 0:40:11.440 --> 0:40:13.160 at the pub and they were like what the like, 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:16.560 are you fucking kidding me? Like you did all that? 0:40:16.640 --> 0:40:19.440 And I was like it's like four hours in the car, 0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:24.319 Like this is nothing, so you can you can get 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:28.319 to a ton of places when you're over there, you know. 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:30.520 The the other I haven't. 0:40:30.880 --> 0:40:34.000 I haven't had a chance to like see golf around Paris, 0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:38.600 but I really want to. The trip around London or 0:40:39.040 --> 0:40:42.239 the Australian sand Belt would be my other two. Like 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:44.719 there's just so much golf in a dense area that 0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:45.840 it's worth seeing. 0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:50.480 Yeah, Melbourne's like and it's gonna you know, so many 0:40:50.520 --> 0:40:53.200 people have invited me down for various things and it's 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:56.520 not it's not the invite that's it's just me getting 0:40:56.680 --> 0:41:00.000 and leaving for you know, ten days is kind of 0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:02.799 holding me back. But like, to me, the Melbourne one 0:41:03.080 --> 0:41:05.279 sticks out as probably the one that I most want 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:07.799 to do along with like New Zealand's the other one. 0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:13.000 For me. Melbourne there's something about like being in a 0:41:13.280 --> 0:41:18.520 world renowned city and it being so close to all 0:41:18.600 --> 0:41:22.479 this world class golf, Like the combination of like, yeah, 0:41:22.680 --> 0:41:26.480 and you can go do nice stuff at night. You know, 0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:30.480 you're not just that that's something that you know, on 0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:32.279 its face appeals to me. 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:36.480 Yeah, I'm I am out of I am not doing 0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:40.200 like ten day golf trips where you're fitting in thirty 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:42.879 six holes a day, Like I'm I'm over it, I'm 0:41:42.880 --> 0:41:47.040 done with it. It's it's done. I would be much 0:41:47.200 --> 0:41:50.280 happier doing a ten day trip where I see seven 0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:55.319 golf courses that are great and then have some time 0:41:55.360 --> 0:41:57.160 to like, yeah, go experience the culture. 0:41:57.400 --> 0:41:57.640 You know. 0:41:57.719 --> 0:42:00.319 It's like take takes some time to just have a 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:02.880 really nice, drawn out dinner, just like walk around the 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:04.560 city a little bit, like yeah, I don't need to. 0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:07.040 I don't need to bust. 0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:09.359 My hump for you know, a week straight and then 0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:13.080 just like be sore for two weeks afterwards. 0:42:13.680 --> 0:42:17.320 This is You've just explained why I keep balking on 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:21.799 Australia or New Zealand. As I continued, like every time 0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:23.759 I think about it, I add another week to the 0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:26.239 trip because it's mostly non golf stuff that I want 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:30.960 to do in the area. But yeah, I think those 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:34.520 are great answers, and it's I'm kind of with you 0:42:34.560 --> 0:42:37.520 with the packing the golf in I did a trip 0:42:37.560 --> 0:42:40.319 to Saint Andrews last year and we just had one 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:43.120 round of golf every day, but I had the mornings 0:42:43.120 --> 0:42:45.000 free because we did it so people could win the 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:49.120 ballot and play the old course. But like having my 0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:51.600 boardings free, it was like a delight. It was like, oh, 0:42:51.640 --> 0:42:54.439 I went out and played golf in the afternoon, came 0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:56.840 back for dinner, and my boarding was wide open. And 0:42:56.880 --> 0:43:00.120 it allowed me so much optionality into terms of what 0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:02.120 I wanted to do. I could go play golf if 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:05.920 I wanted to. All right, we're gonna try this, uh, 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:09.480 this rapid fire segment. This is a new thing that 0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:13.200 we're gonna try on architecture pods. Here. I got to 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:18.359 give you a place or a person or a you know, 0:43:19.280 --> 0:43:22.239 and you tell me the first thing that comes to 0:43:22.320 --> 0:43:27.680 your mind when I say this, let's start with Riviera. 0:43:27.880 --> 0:43:31.080 Oh that's it. That's the that's the way you're doing this. Yeah, 0:43:31.160 --> 0:43:40.960 let's start with Riviera. It makes me think of KURBYR. Enthusiasm. 0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:44.560 Yeah, the Black Swan episode, Yes. 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:49.840 Yes, Disgruntled, Yeah, all all the times that Riviera. You know, 0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:54.040 it's like, well, it's not Riviera, but it's Riviera. People 0:43:54.040 --> 0:43:56.920 who know know that it's Riviera's Larry David's club. It's like, 0:43:57.040 --> 0:44:00.120 so every time golf is introduced in KIRBYR. Enthusiasm, and 0:44:00.239 --> 0:44:04.360 I think of Riviera, And then I think of Michael Yamachi, 0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:07.200 who that character is based on. And I played golf 0:44:07.200 --> 0:44:10.160 with Michael Yamachi at Dos Renaissance Cups, and he's like 0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:12.600 the nicest guy in the world, and he loves talking 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:18.319 golf architecture, and so it's just this funny little like yeah, 0:44:18.360 --> 0:44:19.720 six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. 0:44:20.880 --> 0:44:24.000 Yeah, all right, let's go Alistair Mackenzie. 0:44:25.600 --> 0:44:39.840 Oh yeah, probably somehow underrated. Yeah go on, yeah, I 0:44:39.960 --> 0:44:44.200 just yeah, I I you start to like look at 0:44:44.239 --> 0:44:46.160 the list of stuff that he's done and then he's 0:44:46.200 --> 0:44:49.239 worked on, and you're just like, man, that's that guy 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:52.520 had a good run there in like a short period 0:44:52.520 --> 0:44:54.919 of time, Like you think of you think of these 0:44:55.000 --> 0:44:58.600 like these great runs throughout history that people have been on, 0:44:58.920 --> 0:45:03.040 you know what it crosses, you know, sports or architecture 0:45:03.360 --> 0:45:08.040 or any field whatsoever. It's just like that's pretty good. 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:13.799 I you know, it's I don't think like, I don't 0:45:13.840 --> 0:45:16.000 think most people would say like La Hinch is the 0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:19.680 best course in the UK or the UK or in Ireland, 0:45:19.920 --> 0:45:23.880 you know, but it's like definitely of like a top tier, 0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:27.960 you know, it's it's very high on people's bucket. Lists, 0:45:27.960 --> 0:45:31.000 and I'm not saying it's the best, but like you know, 0:45:31.080 --> 0:45:35.200 if somebody told you in all of Ireland in the UK, 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:37.840 La Hinch is my favorite place, you wouldn't be like 0:45:38.800 --> 0:45:42.799 that's crazy, get out of here, you know. And you 0:45:42.920 --> 0:45:47.680 to think like he conceivably did that over four continent 0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:50.600 with you could make a case for a couple of 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:56.880 courses in America, South America and then Australia. It's mind blowing. 0:45:58.080 --> 0:45:58.279 Yeah. 0:45:58.280 --> 0:46:00.840 It's like when you talk about Tiger Woods, you know, 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:02.880 and people are like, okay, if you only take what 0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:05.160 he did at the US Open, like that's the eighth 0:46:05.320 --> 0:46:08.640 best career of anybody, you know, whatever it is. It's like, 0:46:09.280 --> 0:46:10.919 oh yeah, he had all that work in the UK 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:13.719 in Australia. You know. It's like mackenzie's work in the 0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:18.360 US is like unbelievable in itself. It's you know, I've 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:21.640 seen hardly anything of his in the UK, and I'm 0:46:21.640 --> 0:46:25.160 so eager to because you know, my friend Clyde who 0:46:25.360 --> 0:46:28.120 consulted a lot of these clubs in the UK that 0:46:28.160 --> 0:46:33.360 are McKenzie courses and consults a Titterangi down in New Zealand. 0:46:33.360 --> 0:46:36.440 It's like all these places look incredible, and it's just 0:46:37.360 --> 0:46:40.920 it's like, man, it's just like banger after Bank, you know, 0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:45.520 like they're they're U. Yeah, there's so much great stuff 0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:47.760 that he did, but even the stuff that he isn't 0:46:47.960 --> 0:46:50.040 well known for should be better known. 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:55.920 So I should put published at some point my list 0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:58.400 of like the places that I haven't gotten to that 0:46:58.440 --> 0:47:01.000 are like kind of obscure that I really want to 0:47:01.040 --> 0:47:04.600 get to. Near the top of it is that Cavendish place. 0:47:04.800 --> 0:47:08.440 I think I pronounced it correct. It's like the fifty 0:47:08.480 --> 0:47:13.440 four hundred yard Alisair McKenzie course in England, and it 0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:17.040 looks delightful, like I dream about playing there. I don't 0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:18.760 know what I'm ever going to get there. 0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:21.880 But right, you know, yeah, I mean that would be 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:23.960 a fun trip to do, just like all right, I 0:47:23.960 --> 0:47:26.919 want to see the mackenzie UK stuff and I'm sure 0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:28.120 it would blow me away. 0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:32.600 I wanted to do that. I talked to a friend 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:35.200 of mine, you know, kind of runs our concierge. I 0:47:35.239 --> 0:47:38.000 was like, hey, can we do like an Alistair McKenzie 0:47:38.239 --> 0:47:43.080 UK trip? And he's like, Andy, that is so illogical 0:47:43.600 --> 0:47:46.600 and you end up driving by so many great courses 0:47:46.680 --> 0:47:50.120 to do this that it's a terrible idea, and I'm like, no, 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:52.719 but I think it would be cool, right, Like, oh, 0:47:52.760 --> 0:47:56.000 I just I went I'd only played Alistair McKenzie courses 0:47:56.080 --> 0:47:57.200 for a week. 0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:02.160 There. Certainly there's enough sickos in your community that you 0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:06.040 could get like eight people or twelve people, you know, 0:48:06.080 --> 0:48:09.000 whatever you need to make it work. Like they'd be 0:48:09.040 --> 0:48:11.440 willing to pass by all these great places in an 0:48:11.440 --> 0:48:13.080 effort to do this thing. 0:48:13.080 --> 0:48:16.640 Right, I think like I kind of side with of 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:19.640 those like if you're there, I always like because it's 0:48:19.719 --> 0:48:23.360 like the idea of like, you know, how many people 0:48:23.440 --> 0:48:27.080 went to NCR in the seventies and eighties when it 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:29.400 was ranked as like one of the greatest courses in 0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:32.840 you know, in the country, and right next door was 0:48:32.920 --> 0:48:35.000 Moraine and nobody went to Moraine, you know. 0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:36.480 Yep. 0:48:37.360 --> 0:48:40.160 Yeah, And that was kind of flipped, which is which 0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:43.800 is fascinating, all right. Next up Pine Hills. 0:48:44.560 --> 0:48:50.239 Pine Hills loved it. Second best golf course in Wisconsin. 0:48:52.080 --> 0:48:56.719 What's the best course in Wisconsin? Yeah, yeah, I think that's. 0:48:56.600 --> 0:48:59.279 It's really good. I know people hate on it. No, 0:48:59.360 --> 0:49:03.680 it's the Pine Hills question. Yeah, Harry Smead, I was 0:49:03.719 --> 0:49:06.360 really impressed and a lot of the work that they've undertaken, 0:49:06.480 --> 0:49:09.640 especially like you can tell that the tree work is 0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:13.560 really good and there's still more to do, but it's like, 0:49:14.920 --> 0:49:17.280 you know, you have to chip away at trees. Trees 0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:22.080 aren't a thing that just like happen overnight. But you know, 0:49:22.600 --> 0:49:25.279 for any golf course, if you get the trees in 0:49:25.320 --> 0:49:27.600 the grassing lines right, like you're eighty percent of the 0:49:27.640 --> 0:49:32.480 way there, you know, it's it's it's the detailed stuff 0:49:32.480 --> 0:49:34.759 that everybody wants to spend a ton of money on. 0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:37.680 That's the last like fifteen to twenty percent. It's like, no, 0:49:37.800 --> 0:49:39.840 it's spend a little bit of money and get the 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:41.799 eighty percent right. I think Pine Hill has done a 0:49:41.800 --> 0:49:42.560 really good job of that. 0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:46.840 I I think that's like one of the worst things 0:49:46.880 --> 0:49:51.239 going on in the industry right now is like two 0:49:51.239 --> 0:49:57.280 may places aren't content enough with being eighty percent, which 0:49:57.800 --> 0:50:00.239 like the amount of money you have to spend to 0:50:00.280 --> 0:50:05.760 get to ninety five is insane, and the vast majority 0:50:05.760 --> 0:50:10.080 of golfers don't even know. And the cost, the cost 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:11.560 gets passed on to everybody. 0:50:11.920 --> 0:50:16.360 You know, yeah, how and how you know? Have you 0:50:16.400 --> 0:50:19.160 seen that there's a video of the professor who's filling 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:22.560 up the big jug. And he starts with the biggest 0:50:22.600 --> 0:50:24.839 thing first, you know, it starts with like pingpong balls, 0:50:24.880 --> 0:50:27.480 and it's like is the jug full? In the classroom 0:50:27.520 --> 0:50:30.319 says yes, and then he puts in like marbles, you know, 0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:33.000 and they fill up the void between the ping pong balls. 0:50:33.400 --> 0:50:35.879 It's like, well, is it full now? And everybody says yes, 0:50:35.920 --> 0:50:38.160 and he keeps feeling it with smaller and smaller things, 0:50:38.200 --> 0:50:41.440 and it's like, you know, it's like the point is 0:50:42.080 --> 0:50:45.279 start with the base of the most important things, and 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:50.600 then as you solidify that, work on the stuff that 0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:55.680 is more and more detail or less important. And so 0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:59.800 often it's like people have the they've got the pyramid 0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:01.040 turned upside down. 0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:01.520 You know. 0:51:01.800 --> 0:51:04.360 It's like, oh, we need we need new bunkers, the 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:07.239 new bunkers sand and you know, we need new grass here. 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:10.200 And it's like you need new grass because you've got 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.480 like ten trees over there that are casting shade on 0:51:12.520 --> 0:51:14.400 the green. It's like, so you're just gonna regrass it 0:51:14.440 --> 0:51:16.440 every year until you cut those trees down. It's like, 0:51:16.880 --> 0:51:20.280 just cut the fucking trees down, and you could spend 0:51:20.400 --> 0:51:22.719 a tenth of what you know, you could spend ten 0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:26.680 cents on the dollar to what you're spending. But you know, 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:30.440 the average club member doesn't want that. They want like 0:51:30.560 --> 0:51:34.200 flat tea boxes, and they want fresh sand and good sand, 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:37.200 and they want fast greens. And so that's where a 0:51:37.239 --> 0:51:38.640 club is going to spend their money. 0:51:38.800 --> 0:51:44.320 Consistent bunkers, consistent bunkers, consistent Yeah, fast greens, and yeah, 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:46.560 god forbid, a tea box is like a two percent, 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:49.160 you know, instead of like the point seventy five percent 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:50.120 the laser level. 0:51:50.239 --> 0:51:53.600 You know, it's you know, I think about it as 0:51:53.640 --> 0:51:56.400 a kid, like I grew up like like such slanted 0:51:56.480 --> 0:52:00.480 tea boxes, you know, because it's actually like that era design. 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:02.640 They get built up and then the drought kind of 0:52:02.680 --> 0:52:05.440 settles and they settle like this, and you know that 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:08.440 was a great, you know, skill development moment for you. 0:52:08.520 --> 0:52:10.920 It's like, you know, you're on the fifteen. It's like, well, 0:52:11.920 --> 0:52:13.799 this is a hook, lie, so I got to choke 0:52:13.920 --> 0:52:15.640 up on the club and aim a little right to 0:52:15.800 --> 0:52:19.560 hit the fairway here all right, next to the rapid fire. 0:52:20.320 --> 0:52:22.880 Charles alson boring. 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:29.640 No, he's you know, he's just like, yeah, there's a 0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:33.719 lot of stuff that there's a lot of stuff of his. 0:52:33.880 --> 0:52:37.000 It's like it's well routed, it's really good work, but 0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:41.720 it's just like, oh, it's a lot of it's the same, 0:52:41.760 --> 0:52:45.040 and a lot of it's just big broad slopes. You know, 0:52:48.200 --> 0:52:55.319 we're uh, yeah, yeah, it's uh. I think he's I 0:52:55.360 --> 0:52:58.080 think he is a good golf architect, was a good 0:52:58.120 --> 0:53:02.520 golf architect. He knew what he was doing. This is 0:53:02.560 --> 0:53:05.440 me like backtracking now, and like I'm going to backslide 0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:07.520 on my comment. I just don't think he was great 0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:10.879 at building greens there. I think that's where I want 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:12.840 to land the plane. Not a great greens builder. 0:53:13.960 --> 0:53:18.080 I think that almost every Alison course in America should 0:53:18.120 --> 0:53:19.400 just do a greens renovation. 0:53:20.840 --> 0:53:24.000 I don't know, you're gonna screw more stuff up if 0:53:24.040 --> 0:53:27.200 you do that than just like accept the fact, like 0:53:27.200 --> 0:53:29.880 like you're saying, why aren't people good enough with eighty percent, 0:53:29.960 --> 0:53:32.759 it's like accept the fact that you're just like a 0:53:32.800 --> 0:53:34.960 six or seven, and you're a really solid six or 0:53:35.120 --> 0:53:40.759 seven like they're so you know, it's really hard to 0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:43.719 go from a seven to an eight, and or go 0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:46.160 from an eight to a nine. And I don't I 0:53:46.200 --> 0:53:48.680 don't know if there are any Allison courses in the country. 0:53:48.360 --> 0:53:50.279 That are you know, a nine or an eight. 0:53:51.840 --> 0:53:56.880 But like Davenport, you know, like I love Davenport, it's great, 0:53:57.200 --> 0:53:59.759 But there's a lot of those greens that are just 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:03.360 like they don't do much for me. And that's okay. 0:54:03.520 --> 0:54:05.359 I think if you tried to rebuild them, maybe you'd 0:54:05.400 --> 0:54:07.560 make it worse. You know, more often than not, you 0:54:07.560 --> 0:54:09.320 would make it worse than you would make it better 0:54:09.400 --> 0:54:10.960 if you had ten tries to do it. 0:54:12.080 --> 0:54:14.960 I think about I grew up Caddy, I got at 0:54:14.960 --> 0:54:19.600 Alison in course, and like I could go back there 0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:23.920 tomorrow and I would know every read on every green 0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:27.879 like the back of my hand. Like to me, there, 0:54:28.400 --> 0:54:30.520 I agree with you, is like they you know, and 0:54:30.840 --> 0:54:34.960 for people that he built just tilted greens, right, they 0:54:35.040 --> 0:54:37.760 just tilt one way and there's a lot of slope 0:54:37.760 --> 0:54:40.959 in them, and you can get challenging spots by having 0:54:40.960 --> 0:54:43.839 to put cross slope and they break a ton or 0:54:44.000 --> 0:54:46.799 you know, downhill putts are really fast, but for the 0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:50.040 most part, you know what's going to happen every single 0:54:50.120 --> 0:54:52.800 time you're on the green, like okay, this one breaks 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.640 this way. I always remember as a Caddy, I wouldn't 0:54:55.680 --> 0:54:59.000 even have to get behind I had okay there for 0:54:59.000 --> 0:55:00.759 so long, I wouldn't even have to be behind the 0:55:01.640 --> 0:55:06.000 person putting's ball to give the read, you know. And 0:55:06.080 --> 0:55:08.880 I think that's maybe, you know where where he misses 0:55:08.920 --> 0:55:12.400 a little is like the zest of of of the green. 0:55:12.520 --> 0:55:14.239 And maybe it was just he was a bad putter 0:55:14.719 --> 0:55:18.479 and he wanted he wanted to reward his ball striking more. 0:55:18.520 --> 0:55:19.000 It could be. 0:55:19.040 --> 0:55:21.759 And I'm curious to you know, I've never done the 0:55:21.920 --> 0:55:24.400 trip to trip to Japan, and I would love to. 0:55:24.560 --> 0:55:27.720 It's like maybe the highest on my list of golf 0:55:27.760 --> 0:55:30.239 slash culture trips. I think that's like my number one 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:33.600 place I want to go. And I've heard his stuff 0:55:33.600 --> 0:55:35.880 in Japan is different, and I would like to see it, 0:55:35.920 --> 0:55:37.239 and I would like to give him a chance and 0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:41.719 be an open book, or you'd be a yeah, be 0:55:41.840 --> 0:55:44.319 open to receiving what he did over there. 0:55:44.560 --> 0:55:47.319 And I think he's just happier over there and that's 0:55:47.480 --> 0:55:48.959 what led to better work. 0:55:49.239 --> 0:55:49.520 What's that? 0:55:50.600 --> 0:55:52.520 Do you think maybe he was just happier there and 0:55:52.560 --> 0:55:54.080 he built more exciting greens. 0:55:54.480 --> 0:55:56.799 Maybe yeah, I could. I don't know it. 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.280 And maybe it harkens back to like who was running 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:02.439 the jobs for him was building stuff over there. Maybe 0:56:02.440 --> 0:56:03.160 they were just better. 0:56:05.560 --> 0:56:08.520 What do you do you see any of your personal 0:56:08.840 --> 0:56:12.880 golf uh, you know, leading to bias in your work. 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:21.480 No, No, because I'm yeah, I don't play enough golf 0:56:21.520 --> 0:56:25.320 and I don't have enough I don't have enough knowledge 0:56:25.360 --> 0:56:29.520 about my own game to create any type of bias 0:56:29.640 --> 0:56:33.200 of like what what I should build? Yeah, there's there's 0:56:33.320 --> 0:56:38.880 there's nothing going on up there. It's uh yeah, you know, 0:56:39.040 --> 0:56:43.960 if anything, it's being Actually, no, I have to be. 0:56:44.560 --> 0:56:47.360 There's one thing I'm biased about, and it's it's my height. 0:56:48.200 --> 0:56:50.960 Oftentimes when we're looking like from a tea box or 0:56:50.960 --> 0:56:52.759 you're trying, you know, you're really trying to get that 0:56:52.880 --> 0:56:56.640 last like foot of elevation change down of like can 0:56:56.680 --> 0:56:59.360 you see over this bunker? Can you see the green surface? 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:02.080 I'm always the one in the group that's like, yeah, 0:57:02.080 --> 0:57:04.960 we're good, Like we're good, let's move on. And then 0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:07.319 you know, I'll look over at somebody who's put shorter 0:57:07.360 --> 0:57:09.880 than me. It's like just like kneel down to my 0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:13.880 level and see what you see. It's like, okay, that's fair. 0:57:14.040 --> 0:57:16.520 And then it's like kneel down another six inches and 0:57:16.560 --> 0:57:20.479 see what, Like Grandma sees, you know, and so I'm 0:57:20.520 --> 0:57:24.640 constantly reminding myself of like having to do that. So 0:57:25.160 --> 0:57:27.400 it's not something that's my game, but it's something that's 0:57:27.440 --> 0:57:30.800 like I'm six foot four, and yeah, visually I need 0:57:30.840 --> 0:57:32.919 to like understand what it's like to be five foot 0:57:32.920 --> 0:57:35.360 four for visibility purposes. 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:41.640 When you're does your mood impact how you shape stuff? 0:57:41.840 --> 0:57:45.600 Like if you're in a bad mood, does that day's 0:57:45.680 --> 0:57:48.120 product come out differently than if you're in a good mood. 0:57:50.600 --> 0:57:57.320 Maybe if it's really bad, I might decide to do 0:57:57.360 --> 0:58:02.200 something different. You know. It's not like there's only one 0:58:02.240 --> 0:58:04.680 thing to do any day that I wake up. So 0:58:04.720 --> 0:58:07.160 if I'm like, I don't think I've ever been so 0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:09.760 pissed off that I'm like I can't build this green 0:58:09.840 --> 0:58:14.080 or I can't build this bunker. But maybe it's like 0:58:14.680 --> 0:58:16.439 there's some dirt that I know we need to shove 0:58:16.520 --> 0:58:20.600 over here by Thursday, So may I'll just go shove 0:58:20.680 --> 0:58:24.840 the dirt, you know. Or sometimes it's like if I 0:58:24.880 --> 0:58:27.040 know I've got to take a phone call at a 0:58:27.080 --> 0:58:29.320 certain time, it's like I'll want to be doing something 0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:33.400 that's like mindless rather than hey, I'm trying to like 0:58:33.960 --> 0:58:36.240 get the grades right and put the finishing touches on 0:58:36.280 --> 0:58:42.000 a green. The only thing, you know, it's like otherwise, 0:58:42.440 --> 0:58:45.560 I most of the time, I like, just like my 0:58:45.680 --> 0:58:48.200 first pass, I go as quick as possible, and it's 0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:50.600 super messy, and I want to just get the idea 0:58:50.640 --> 0:58:54.240 in as quickly as I can and then just go 0:58:54.320 --> 0:58:56.600 back to the tea or to the approach and see 0:58:56.640 --> 0:59:00.880 how it looks and then start refining from there. And 0:59:00.960 --> 0:59:03.280 so a lot of time that lends itself to like 0:59:04.160 --> 0:59:07.520 being rushed or being you know, being in some type 0:59:07.520 --> 0:59:10.080 of mood of like, all right, I'm just gonna get 0:59:10.080 --> 0:59:12.200 this done, like hog this dirt out of here real quick, 0:59:12.360 --> 0:59:13.280 like as fast as I can. 0:59:14.720 --> 0:59:16.040 But for the most part, man, I don't know. 0:59:16.120 --> 0:59:20.560 My disposition is usually I'm usually pretty, I'm usually not 0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:21.440 too fired up. 0:59:22.440 --> 0:59:25.160 I just was curious if you notice anything, you know, 0:59:26.360 --> 0:59:28.440 all right, last last thing. We'll get you out of 0:59:28.440 --> 0:59:31.520 here so you can go lock in for the Husker game. Here. 0:59:33.040 --> 0:59:36.560 Last last question. I you know you're you guys are 0:59:36.600 --> 0:59:40.600 currently building gil Roy at uh at Old Barnwell. 0:59:40.920 --> 0:59:41.040 Uh. 0:59:41.520 --> 0:59:44.400 Obviously Old barn Well has gotten you know, tons of praise. 0:59:44.600 --> 0:59:44.840 Uh. 0:59:45.160 --> 0:59:47.280 You know, been a kind of a smash hit. You're 0:59:47.280 --> 0:59:50.320 building second course there, tell tell us a little bit 0:59:50.360 --> 0:59:52.760 about like what's going to make this one unique from 0:59:53.000 --> 0:59:55.560 from the original course, and and how you guys are 0:59:55.600 --> 0:59:59.080 going about building a second course at a facility like 0:59:59.120 --> 1:00:01.200 you know, on a Ruis piece of land. 1:00:02.680 --> 1:00:07.480 Yeah, I think you know. Part of it is the 1:00:07.600 --> 1:00:10.160 land is different, and the way we're using the land 1:00:10.200 --> 1:00:13.440 is a little bit different. We're there's a big valley 1:00:13.440 --> 1:00:16.280 that cuts through the first course, and we're down the 1:00:16.320 --> 1:00:19.200 second course is downstream of that. The valley like in 1:00:19.240 --> 1:00:21.760 a broad sense, sort of opens up a little bit more, 1:00:22.040 --> 1:00:26.000 and those slopes, the side slopes lay back just enough 1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:29.919 that we can play off of them and on them 1:00:29.960 --> 1:00:32.440 and down them and up them a little bit more 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:35.400 easily than we could have on the first course. The 1:00:35.440 --> 1:00:39.800 first course was more like you know, it's not quite 1:00:39.880 --> 1:00:42.240 straight up sixty feet, but it was something that we 1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:43.760 didn't want to tackle. It would have been a ton 1:00:43.800 --> 1:00:47.760 of earthwork. And and the valley down here where the 1:00:47.760 --> 1:00:49.680 gilroy is going to be is not that so we're 1:00:49.720 --> 1:00:51.600 able to use it a little bit differently, which will 1:00:51.640 --> 1:00:55.240 just lend itself to feeling different than the first course. 1:00:56.680 --> 1:00:59.920 We've found some different kinds of green sites, some on purpose, 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:03.760 like intentionally, so like hey, we want like we want 1:01:03.800 --> 1:01:06.880 to have this green more smushed into the ground over here, 1:01:06.960 --> 1:01:09.360 even though we know there's like a cool ridge line 1:01:09.360 --> 1:01:12.960 that could be like an infinity type green or something. 1:01:14.480 --> 1:01:17.880 So making conscious choices like that during the routing process 1:01:18.080 --> 1:01:22.440 and then you know, aesthetically, how we treat that stylistically, 1:01:22.480 --> 1:01:25.320 how we treat that, which is you know, right now 1:01:25.360 --> 1:01:28.280 we're in the early stages of building golf and that's 1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:30.680 like it's a really fun time for Brian and me 1:01:30.720 --> 1:01:33.280 to be on site together because we just like we 1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:34.960 sort of have an idea what we want to do. 1:01:35.040 --> 1:01:37.520 But until you start tinkering around in the dirt and 1:01:37.600 --> 1:01:40.800 like you know, getting in the excavator, it's like, okay, 1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:42.720 this is like we could do this, or we could 1:01:42.760 --> 1:01:47.560 do this. You start to get a feel for what 1:01:47.600 --> 1:01:51.240 the site wants and like how you're going to treat 1:01:51.280 --> 1:01:55.280 the other eighteen holes, you know, the different things we 1:01:55.320 --> 1:01:58.040 could do. So that's kind of where we're at right now. 1:01:58.120 --> 1:02:00.680 So it's it's fun. It's like there isn't there isn't 1:02:00.680 --> 1:02:03.200 an answer to that question stylistically of like what it's 1:02:03.200 --> 1:02:04.960 going to be we know, we know it's going to 1:02:04.960 --> 1:02:06.600 be different because we want it to be a little 1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:11.160 bit different. Just as far as how I'm not really 1:02:11.200 --> 1:02:11.720 sure yet. 1:02:13.880 --> 1:02:17.560 All right, looking forward to seeing that I lied. One 1:02:17.640 --> 1:02:22.600 last question, uh dream dream locale to build your own 1:02:22.640 --> 1:02:28.600 golf course. End of your career. You look back and 1:02:29.000 --> 1:02:31.720 if there's one place you'd like to build a golf course, 1:02:32.080 --> 1:02:34.200 you know, it doesn't matter who you know, it could 1:02:34.320 --> 1:02:35.240 you could be anywhere. 1:02:36.240 --> 1:02:41.600 Uh Omaha, Nebraska, so I could sleep in my own bed. 1:02:43.960 --> 1:02:45.360 Figured that would be the answer. 1:02:45.560 --> 1:02:48.120 Yeah, yeah, anywhere in a city. 1:02:48.320 --> 1:02:48.680 Please. 1:02:50.240 --> 1:02:52.480 Just you know, Tom talks about putting stuff out into 1:02:52.480 --> 1:02:54.840 the universe. It's like, I'm going to put stuff out 1:02:54.880 --> 1:02:57.320 of the universe. If there's like a defunct golf course 1:02:57.560 --> 1:03:00.400 that is on a decent piece of land and it's 1:03:00.400 --> 1:03:03.960 surrounded by city, like, let's save it. Let's like the 1:03:04.000 --> 1:03:07.120 people have money, Like, let's let's not invest in the 1:03:07.120 --> 1:03:10.280 next like private destination, Like invest in that piece of 1:03:10.360 --> 1:03:12.760 land and then let's like build a really cool golf 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:15.440 course on it. So then it's in a city and 1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:18.280 everybody can access it, and it's really like, you know, 1:03:18.480 --> 1:03:20.520 you can drive there instead of having to fly there. 1:03:20.760 --> 1:03:21.360 Be really great. 1:03:22.800 --> 1:03:29.680 Uh not turn into a Ryder Cup venue. All right, 1:03:29.760 --> 1:03:33.480 we'll leave on that, Blake, big thanks for coming coming on. 1:03:33.720 --> 1:03:37.000 People can UH check in on UH on what's going 1:03:37.080 --> 1:03:40.160 on you on your website dundee goolf dot com. Uh. 1:03:40.240 --> 1:03:42.880 They also can follow you on h on X or 1:03:43.200 --> 1:03:47.000 on UH on Instagram. So look forward to seeing your 1:03:47.040 --> 1:03:49.840 new work and UH it's always fun to chat golf 1:03:49.880 --> 1:04:00.000 with you. Thanks Andy, all right, big thanks for Blay 1:04:00.920 --> 1:04:05.600 joining in giving us his time sprecious time probably helped 1:04:05.600 --> 1:04:08.320 the time pass before the Huskers played Michigan. We'll know 1:04:08.480 --> 1:04:11.480 the result when you're listening to this. I'm hoping they 1:04:11.560 --> 1:04:15.040 keep the undefeated run going, one of the great stories 1:04:15.120 --> 1:04:18.240 in college basketball. As I mentioned at the top, we're 1:04:18.240 --> 1:04:20.600 gonna do a little Q and A segment. I think 1:04:20.600 --> 1:04:24.200 we might just do one queue here this week, just 1:04:24.200 --> 1:04:28.360 because it's already an hour. Nick Nelson had a question. 1:04:28.720 --> 1:04:33.520 States like Wisconsin, Nebraska, and the Carolinas have enjoyed a 1:04:33.680 --> 1:04:37.320 huge explosion of exceptional golf course development in the past 1:04:37.400 --> 1:04:41.360 few decades. Are there any states ripe for the same 1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:46.120 level of new development in the next ten years. I 1:04:46.160 --> 1:04:49.600 would say that one state missing from this is Texas 1:04:50.640 --> 1:04:54.720 and the explosion has kind of just started to happen. 1:04:55.520 --> 1:05:00.280 You obviously have new courses Luling Children's Hall, you have 1:05:00.360 --> 1:05:04.120 the Kaiser's Wild Spring Dunes, you have David McClay kidd 1:05:04.240 --> 1:05:07.280 did a course there in Austin called uh I think 1:05:07.280 --> 1:05:10.960 it's uh Laura Loma h. So you're starting to see 1:05:11.400 --> 1:05:15.160 a ton of development in Texas. There's obviously the Big Covey, 1:05:15.200 --> 1:05:18.680 which one golf digests best new course. That's a ton 1:05:18.840 --> 1:05:23.280 of big development area. I think just in general, when 1:05:23.320 --> 1:05:29.520 you look at golf development, you need states that have 1:05:29.680 --> 1:05:37.919 ample land and uh, pretty lax regulatory situations. So when 1:05:37.920 --> 1:05:40.360 you think about that, like the western part of the 1:05:40.480 --> 1:05:42.880 United States, one of the issues that they are going 1:05:42.920 --> 1:05:47.000 to confront all the time is water. But they have 1:05:47.040 --> 1:05:48.760 a ton of land, So it's kind of like a 1:05:48.800 --> 1:05:51.800 trade off, like, are you going to see some great 1:05:51.960 --> 1:05:55.360 projects come out of the West. That's like kind of 1:05:55.400 --> 1:05:58.800 like a maybe because of the issues with natural resources, 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:01.880 although they have a abundant land. Am I going to 1:06:01.920 --> 1:06:03.840 see a bunch of new projects up in the in 1:06:03.880 --> 1:06:06.600 the northeast of the United States? No, there's no land, 1:06:06.760 --> 1:06:11.400 you know, trying to find two hundred plus part acre parcels. 1:06:12.040 --> 1:06:15.680 That's it's expensive and it's going to be really challenging 1:06:15.720 --> 1:06:19.800 and you're gonna end up being pretty remote with short seasons. 1:06:20.160 --> 1:06:22.960 So I think like where you see a lot of 1:06:22.960 --> 1:06:27.640 this happening, you know, the unlock of the Carolinas is 1:06:27.720 --> 1:06:30.960 like it's a twelve month season. It's a realistic like 1:06:31.040 --> 1:06:33.760 people play golf twelve months a year there. I think 1:06:33.800 --> 1:06:36.680 that's where you see that. Nebraska I think is like 1:06:37.240 --> 1:06:42.000 kind of quasi you know, it's just not you know, 1:06:42.440 --> 1:06:44.680 the season's really short and it's going to be the 1:06:44.720 --> 1:06:47.120 sand hills, and like one of the challenges of building 1:06:47.200 --> 1:06:50.440 like you go find great land to the sand hills tomorrow. 1:06:50.600 --> 1:06:53.040 Like you know, there's if you go look on land sites, 1:06:53.480 --> 1:06:55.800 you can find great land for golf. Now, one of 1:06:55.800 --> 1:06:58.400 the tricky things with Nebraska that nobody thinks about is 1:06:58.720 --> 1:07:02.760 it's hard to staff NOSCA. A state that might be 1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:10.840 ripe for development could be looking in Oklahoma. Oklahoma. I 1:07:10.920 --> 1:07:14.520 think there's some areas of sand in Oklahoma which people 1:07:14.560 --> 1:07:17.080 like to build golf golf courses on. But I think 1:07:17.120 --> 1:07:20.520 the other kind of sneaky thing about Oklahoma, it's got 1:07:20.560 --> 1:07:24.680 a really nice playing season I you know, I went 1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:27.800 down and played Dornic Hills right after it opened back 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:30.840 up after their renovation, which is about an hour and 1:07:30.880 --> 1:07:33.800 a half north of Dallas or more, Oklahoma. But I 1:07:33.800 --> 1:07:36.360 went and played there in mid November. It was seventy 1:07:36.400 --> 1:07:40.400 degrees and sunny, so you get those like much longer 1:07:41.200 --> 1:07:44.880 seasons there. And I think that that could be an 1:07:44.920 --> 1:07:48.479 area where you might look in in the future and say, hey, 1:07:48.480 --> 1:07:51.960 there could be development there. I think if you look in, 1:07:52.440 --> 1:07:55.120 you know, Georgia could be a state that you might 1:07:55.160 --> 1:08:00.080 see more development. And but I think, like overall, you 1:08:00.120 --> 1:08:02.600 got to look for places that have a lot of 1:08:02.640 --> 1:08:07.479 available land and you know, population nearby. That's the other 1:08:07.720 --> 1:08:11.080 big thing. I don't think the Kaisers when they built 1:08:11.320 --> 1:08:14.480 Sand Valley had really thought about like the population within 1:08:15.000 --> 1:08:17.880 four hours of it when they when they started. But 1:08:18.120 --> 1:08:21.360 what became abundantly clear about like a public golf resort 1:08:21.560 --> 1:08:26.599 is that population within a driving distance is hugely important 1:08:26.600 --> 1:08:29.160 to the success. And you know, with Sand Valley, you 1:08:29.240 --> 1:08:35.479 have Minneapolis, Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, you know, Iowa all within 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:39.280 like an easy shot of of the of the golf 1:08:39.479 --> 1:08:41.640 and and I think that's like a huge part of 1:08:41.680 --> 1:08:45.840 their success beyond delivering a great product. So I think 1:08:45.920 --> 1:08:48.679 like the the most important things to look at are 1:08:49.000 --> 1:08:53.560 you know, resources in terms of land and water. Uh. 1:08:53.880 --> 1:08:56.880 And then you know the the laws like are they 1:08:56.920 --> 1:08:59.360 going to play ball and want to you know, build golf. 1:08:59.560 --> 1:09:01.479 And then then the back half of it is like 1:09:01.600 --> 1:09:03.639 depending on what type of facility you want to build, 1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:06.960 population nearby uh, And that's how you kind of I 1:09:07.000 --> 1:09:09.960 would triangulate finding places that you want to build golf. 1:09:10.400 --> 1:09:14.080 So UH. Anyways, we'll do more questions. We have a 1:09:14.120 --> 1:09:18.360 lot of like different golf course golf questions from PGA 1:09:18.479 --> 1:09:24.240 tour to golf course architecture and we will loop in 1:09:24.320 --> 1:09:27.280 PJ for them. He didn't want to join this one. 1:09:27.320 --> 1:09:29.599 He didn't feel like he was going to add to that, 1:09:29.920 --> 1:09:32.160 but he probably would have. We could have asked him 1:09:32.160 --> 1:09:35.240 where he would have liked liked golf to go. But 1:09:35.840 --> 1:09:39.080 thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. You know, 1:09:39.080 --> 1:09:41.760 I don't want to jake to myself. I'll say it 1:09:41.800 --> 1:09:45.560 here and if if he doesn't come through, UH, that 1:09:45.800 --> 1:09:48.559 is you know, he blood's on his hand. But what 1:09:48.720 --> 1:09:52.639 schedule is our first chat with Trevor Trevor Immelman next week? Uh, 1:09:52.720 --> 1:09:55.080 look for looking forward to talking a little bit of 1:09:55.120 --> 1:09:57.960 golf with him. It's been a while since we last talked. 1:09:58.000 --> 1:10:00.840 I think we haven't talked since since the Open. So 1:10:01.320 --> 1:10:04.040 look forward to chatting with Trevor and we'll catch you 1:10:04.040 --> 1:10:05.519 next week. Thanks for listening.