Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a fried egg
Speaker 2: Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, Frida Egg, fridagg Bride egg, Lie,
Speaker 2: I'm about ready to run.
Speaker 1: Off of the hump. Welcome back to the Friday Golf Podcast.
Speaker 1: I am your host and Andy Johnson.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: This week, I'm excited to be joined by one of
Speaker 1: golf's young, bright, up and coming golf architects, Blake Cone.
Speaker 1: Blake has been on this podcast a few times, but
Speaker 1: with me a long time ago, and since his career
Speaker 1: has really progressed. UH, He's done some solo work on
Speaker 1: his own. He's continued to work a lot with Tom Doak,
Speaker 1: and he was a co designer of Old Barnwell, kind
Speaker 1: of one of the big courses in the last five
Speaker 1: years that opened. So I was really excited to chat
Speaker 1: with Blake and kind of just chop it up about
Speaker 1: golf architecture. We discussed a ton of stuff, some on topic,
Speaker 1: some off topic, but it was a really fun conversation.
Speaker 1: Our flew by. We'll have to have him back on
Speaker 1: another time, but before we get to the Blake interview,
Speaker 1: we are also going to add I think most episodes
Speaker 1: will do this. We're going to add a Q and
Speaker 1: a segment at the back. We're fielding questions for this
Speaker 1: through fridagg Golf Club, who is also, you know, the
Speaker 1: sponsor of this episode. Friday Golf Club our community, our membership.
Speaker 1: We have a forum there where we have a kind
Speaker 1: of a standing post asking for questions, so we'll get
Speaker 1: it through there. Friday Golf Club's a awesome, you know,
Speaker 1: community for people that want more from us. We obviously
Speaker 1: you get early access to our events, but we do
Speaker 1: heaps of content, mainly golf course architecture content in there
Speaker 1: as well. There are weekly course profile write ups and
Speaker 1: then we have a pretty vibrant community in the forums
Speaker 1: that discuss all things golf. So if you're interested in
Speaker 1: getting a little bit more from us, supporting us, it's
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty dollars a year and you can
Speaker 1: join at the Frida egg dot com. All right, let's
Speaker 1: get to Blake Conant. All right, welcoming on for the
Speaker 1: first time in a really long time with me. At
Speaker 1: least you talked with Garrett, I think before more recently
Speaker 1: than me on this feed. Blake Conant one of my
Speaker 1: favorite people in the golf architecture community, and I'm just
Speaker 1: happy that you could carve out time around, you know,
Speaker 1: appointment viewing for you now in January, which you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't expect to utter these words appointment corn Husker
Speaker 1: Nebraska Cornhusker basketball.
Speaker 2: Top five matchup. No, I I appreciate your flexibility. You know,
Speaker 2: the bandwagon was nearly full when I jumped on, but
Speaker 2: there was still just a little bit of room left.
Speaker 2: So so yeah, I'm able to I'm able to follow
Speaker 2: along here.
Speaker 1: I mean, you got Hoiberg. It's that's fun. I mean,
Speaker 1: he was so he was so good when he was
Speaker 1: at Iowa State. You know, he figured it might have
Speaker 1: translate to success in Nebraska. But I find it humorous
Speaker 1: that now Indiana's a football school and now Nebraska's at
Speaker 1: basketball school in the Towy Twys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's uh, the parallels are almost
Speaker 2: a little scary, and it's it's particularly demoralizing knowing that
Speaker 2: for basketball to be good, the universe says that football
Speaker 2: must be bad. So so here we are, you know,
Speaker 2: thirty years since the national championship. Still still plugging away.
Speaker 2: I'm sure Kai Golbi will appreciate starting starting this chat
Speaker 2: with a Husker football and Husker basketball mentioned.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's always nice to warm up on something.
Speaker 1: Some people get frustrated with that, but it's like, you
Speaker 1: know what, if you go for a run, you warm
Speaker 1: up before you go for a run. We're warming up
Speaker 1: before we get into get into the meat and bones
Speaker 1: of meat and potatoes of this chat.
Speaker 2: Ied the podcast warm up for for for for the record.
Speaker 1: Really, yep, why I want?
Speaker 2: I want to just dive right in or whoever I'm
Speaker 2: listening to, I want them to dive in. I don't
Speaker 2: I don't want. I don't need to hear what you
Speaker 2: had for breakfast. I don't need to hear like how
Speaker 2: much butter you use? Like no, I'm listening to this
Speaker 2: podcast to find out about politics or tech or Husker
Speaker 2: football or whatever.
Speaker 3: I'm listening to. Like, just just jump right into that.
Speaker 1: All right. Well, you know I'm gonna start seeking your
Speaker 1: your golf courses. If you ever have a hole that
Speaker 1: that starts, that's a gentle handshake. I'm gonna say, Hey,
Speaker 1: wtf uh? I wanted to dive into the craziest stuff
Speaker 1: your your first hole better be the craziest stuff every time.
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good Uh yeah, all right, I'll put
Speaker 2: my money where my mouth is. See who what was
Speaker 2: the was it Walt Whitman? It said, you know, do
Speaker 2: I contradict myself?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Uh something? What's the quote? Something like that? But yes,
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, no, I contradict me. I contradict myself
Speaker 2: a ton, So so I'm sure I'll start every first
Speaker 2: hole with a gentle handshake.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, old bar Well one of one of
Speaker 1: the courses in your design profile. Uh, you know you
Speaker 1: and and Bridesteiner Co. Designed it. The first hole is
Speaker 1: relatively gentle. I would say it's a short Part five.
Speaker 1: One of the things I'm curious about with it is
Speaker 1: the mounding, the fronting mound. So for those that haven't
Speaker 1: been there, which is probably the vast majority of this podcast,
Speaker 1: there are like these mounds I've never I've never really
Speaker 1: seen it on an American golf course before, where you
Speaker 1: have these two mounds that cut in front and it
Speaker 1: kind of obscures your view off the first tee. But
Speaker 1: then there's a little hole, a little like slot in
Speaker 1: them that you walk through. What was the idea of
Speaker 1: those mounts? It just curious off the top question since
Speaker 1: we're talking about first holes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were, you know, they were a product of
Speaker 2: like the the scale being so big, of like where
Speaker 2: do you start? Fair ways? Where do you where do
Speaker 2: you end? And stop grassing lines sometimes and when it's
Speaker 2: so wide open sometimes that's hard to do gracefully. And
Speaker 2: I don't know, we were sort of okay with not
Speaker 2: being graceful. I think it was it was it was
Speaker 2: an honest thing to be intentional about what we were
Speaker 2: doing out there. So part of it was just like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we want burms to be a bit of a theme.
Speaker 2: Why not do that right on the first t Let
Speaker 2: this burm be the start of the fairway in a
Speaker 2: way to start the fairway and then also you know hard,
Speaker 2: you know, initiate sort of a theme that we're going
Speaker 2: to have throughout the golf course. And that one's more
Speaker 2: like aesthetic and provides a glimpse into what you're going
Speaker 2: to see later on. But a lot of the berms
Speaker 2: out there are functional as far as like steering storm water.
Speaker 2: So I'd say fifty percent of them serve a purpose
Speaker 2: for you know, functionality of storm water or for strategy
Speaker 2: of golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I kind of liked it. It felt like
Speaker 1: I was like entering the gates of the golf course
Speaker 1: in a way symbolically, like you walk through and you're
Speaker 1: walking through this little hole in the you know, the
Speaker 1: berm is about as tall as you know, a human being,
Speaker 1: maybe a little shorter than human.
Speaker 2: Shorter waist high, yeah, waster belly button.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 1: Maybe I think it's a little taller that it could
Speaker 1: be my it could be my memory. The but you
Speaker 1: know what about you know, I guess like one of
Speaker 1: the things that stands out about you got your guys'
Speaker 1: work there is that we've been in this era of
Speaker 1: of like naturalism, the idea of making everything kind of
Speaker 1: blend in. What was the thinking, uh, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: you just alluded to the the function of the burms
Speaker 1: with moving storm water, but the use of these berms
Speaker 1: and the you know, they they look, they appear and
Speaker 1: are band made and they kind of cut against that.
Speaker 1: Was that an intentional decision?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Just stylistically, like the variety of styles of stuff we
Speaker 2: have out there and sort of the not trying to
Speaker 2: hide what you're doing type of thing that was certainly intentional.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like we had a good site, we
Speaker 2: didn't have a great site. I think if you were
Speaker 2: you know, if our site was through sand dunes or
Speaker 2: something like you know, Childer's Hall or Sandhills or wherever,
Speaker 2: you might not have made as many of those choices.
Speaker 2: But for us, you know, that was something where we
Speaker 2: were like, it was a way to be honest of hey, we're.
Speaker 3: Going to.
Speaker 2: We need to make the golf work. We want to
Speaker 2: try to make the golf strategy cool. There's no excuse
Speaker 2: not to have a great hole if you've got a
Speaker 2: blank canvas. So oftentimes we're you know, we're doing a
Speaker 2: lot of heavy shaping. I wouldn't call it earthwork, and
Speaker 2: you're and you're moving dirt around you. You're you're cutting
Speaker 2: two feet here, you're plopping it over there, and a
Speaker 2: lot of times the goal is to like blend that
Speaker 2: in and make it look natural. For us, it was, well,
Speaker 2: let's PLoP it here. It's going to serve a purpose
Speaker 2: for the golf strategy, but we don't necessarily need to
Speaker 2: like blend it into nature. So that that was something
Speaker 2: that we're you know, it was just like we've seen
Speaker 2: that tons of great golf courses we've been to of
Speaker 2: you know, the theme is there is no theme, there's
Speaker 2: no bunker style. And a lot of these great golf
Speaker 2: courses like places Brian and I love so much, like
Speaker 2: National Golf Links or Garden City or you know, even
Speaker 2: old photos of pine valleys, so that kind of gives
Speaker 2: you permission to It's like, well, if they can do it,
Speaker 2: why can't we do it?
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, Somewhere somewhere it got lost that like
Speaker 1: bunkers are are hazards, and you know, I think it
Speaker 1: probably came with the you know, technical precision that that
Speaker 1: modern machinery gave people that you could have that like
Speaker 1: that succinct style of bunker throughout a golf course, or
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes what the sites gave them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's you know, That's what's kind of interesting,
Speaker 2: is like there's this intention to have like a sight
Speaker 2: wide prescription of we want all flash bunkers or grass
Speaker 2: face bunkers, and what you find out is like within
Speaker 2: each site there's little micro sites where hey, a flashbunker
Speaker 2: doesn't work here, Like this is way better off being
Speaker 2: something that's grass spaced, because we're really fighting surface drainage,
Speaker 2: and we'd have to do a ton of work to
Speaker 2: steer the water away from it for it to be
Speaker 2: flash faced, or hey, a bunker doesn't even belong here.
Speaker 2: We can achieve the same thing with mounds. It's way
Speaker 2: less expensive. It actually tends to challenge the better player
Speaker 2: more if you've got something in place of sand. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like you guys who are really good, don't like
Speaker 2: hitting out of awkward stances, out of rough You want
Speaker 2: to be able to control your ball, control the flight
Speaker 2: of it. And that's the thing where it's like hitting
Speaker 2: a shot out of off for a fifteen handicap sometimes
Speaker 2: is welcome, you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, absolutely, I you know, it's like one of
Speaker 1: the things you grow up. When you grow up caddying,
Speaker 1: you realize is like sometimes having like a little bit
Speaker 1: of grass in the ball sitting up is a good
Speaker 1: thing for a lot of golfers. And the since we talked,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a number of years have passed, but
Speaker 1: you've gone from where I think you're you know, you're
Speaker 1: still in this process of becoming like a full blown
Speaker 1: solo architect, but you've gone from a shaper to where
Speaker 1: you have a substantial amount of your own work. What's
Speaker 1: what's the transition been?
Speaker 3: Like pretty easy because it's just.
Speaker 2: You know, there isn't a lot of like cold calling
Speaker 2: or me like trying to level jump. A lot of
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that's come my way is just
Speaker 2: come my way organically, and it's not forced, you know.
Speaker 2: And I think that's a product of just like finding,
Speaker 2: you know, finding the part of this profession that makes
Speaker 2: you happy and wanting to do that and like steering
Speaker 2: yourself towards that a little bit. So for me, that's
Speaker 2: that's the creative side of it. It's like it's the
Speaker 2: planning of a golf course, of a new golf course,
Speaker 2: or master planning for what you're going to do for
Speaker 2: renovation or restoration, and then like executing the work, like
Speaker 2: getting in the dirt and building the features. So for me,
Speaker 2: it's in an industry that is very dependent on what,
Speaker 2: like the economy is doing, it's good to kind of
Speaker 2: have that that that baseline of like Okay, no matter
Speaker 2: if the economy is you know, up here or down here,
Speaker 2: if I enjoy doing these things, I should always be
Speaker 2: able to find a way to do them when the
Speaker 2: economy is going goods. Maybe that means I'm like getting
Speaker 2: solo design work on my own, and if things are slow,
Speaker 2: maybe that means renovation work or I'm helping Tom with something,
Speaker 2: you know, dope with something either shaping for him or
Speaker 2: running a job. And so that's sort of like I'm
Speaker 2: in that transition now of I'd be happy to live
Speaker 2: in that you know, quote unquote purgatory forever because I'm
Speaker 2: just I'm happy doing what I'm doing because I have
Speaker 2: the opportunity to build cool golf and the credit is
Speaker 2: like a secondary thing. But you know, I've always said like,
Speaker 2: as long as Tom keeps working and keeps wanting to
Speaker 2: have me around, like I'm willing to keep learning from
Speaker 2: him and keep working with him. It's a the people
Speaker 2: he surrounds himself with are really cool and he's, you know,
Speaker 2: one of two guys getting the best projects the world.
Speaker 2: So it's just an opportunity to to build golf and
Speaker 2: learn from him at a really high level. So right now,
Speaker 2: it's just like purgatory is a very negative way to
Speaker 2: put it, but yeah, it's this like transitional phase where
Speaker 2: I'm getting to do stuff with Brian, I'm getting to
Speaker 2: do stuff on my own, I'm getting to do stuff
Speaker 2: with Tom, and it's all really fun because I'm just
Speaker 2: working with cool people.
Speaker 1: Uh. PJ would say that, you know, you know Ball,
Speaker 1: knowing Ball and working closely with Tom. What what's something
Speaker 1: about him and his work that kind of blows you
Speaker 1: away that maybe isn't recognizable to the regular golfer.
Speaker 2: It's you know, I think one of the cool things
Speaker 2: about uh, you know, Tom's known for his routings and
Speaker 2: his greens, and I don't think a lot of people
Speaker 2: can comprehend like how those come together, you know, but
Speaker 2: he's he's given glimpses through his books or through some
Speaker 2: of the podcasts that you guys do about his process
Speaker 2: for both.
Speaker 3: One of the cool things of like.
Speaker 2: Building a green with Tom is is the way he
Speaker 2: views it and edits it, which he'll go, you know
Speaker 2: a lot of us when we get on a green,
Speaker 2: we're looking at like the internal contours and what the
Speaker 2: green is doing. Tom will walk the perimeter and like
Speaker 2: look at all the recovery shots and he's trying to
Speaker 2: diagnose like is it impossible from over here? Am I
Speaker 2: okay with that? Like if I miss here, what shots
Speaker 2: do I have to these pins? And so so his
Speaker 2: editing sort of like takes place through through that process,
Speaker 2: especially when building greens. And you know, the first time
Speaker 2: I saw it, saw him do it, and then working
Speaker 2: with him and doing it, it was just like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's a really eye opening way to build because then
Speaker 2: you you just sort of like you broaden the scope
Speaker 2: of what you're looking at and you start to you know,
Speaker 2: Clyde Johnson, my good friend who's over in the UK,
Speaker 2: talks a lot about like the thirty yards in front
Speaker 2: of the green, like that should be the most captivating
Speaker 2: part of the golf course or as captivating as the green,
Speaker 2: And when you're building, agree with Tom, you start to realize,
Speaker 2: like the surrounds and the recovery shots are what makes
Speaker 2: it so interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like I think a term in
Speaker 1: golf architecture that people, you know, maybe a novice wouldn't
Speaker 1: really understand is like when you talk about the green complex,
Speaker 1: it should extend probably twenty yards around it, right, would
Speaker 1: you agree with that, Like would you consider things that
Speaker 1: you're building in front of the green as part of
Speaker 1: the overarching green complex?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Totally.
Speaker 2: I mean we're thinking about when we say we're shaping
Speaker 2: a green, like you're you're doing all of that and
Speaker 2: typically you're you're shaping the tie ins to the next
Speaker 2: tee or you're even shaping the next tee too, because
Speaker 2: all that sort of blends together is one green complex.
Speaker 3: And yeah, whether.
Speaker 2: It's twenty yards out or you know, I typically think
Speaker 2: of like wherever your grassing line is going to be.
Speaker 2: Sometimes that's nine paces out, or you know, a head
Speaker 2: that's on the green that throws out can throw seventy
Speaker 2: five feet, so that'd be twenty five yards out from
Speaker 2: the green sometimes that you've got to shape. So yeah,
Speaker 2: all that, all that goes into it. It's a it's
Speaker 2: a big job to build to you know, to have
Speaker 2: a completed green complex.
Speaker 1: When you're when you're working on these projects and you
Speaker 1: know to this, you you just completed a renovation project
Speaker 1: on your own, so you can you can speak to
Speaker 1: this now sure Haven versus you know, working with Tom
Speaker 1: uh You know, when you're working with Tom, you are
Speaker 1: are together with a number of associates that are building greens.
Speaker 1: Or at Old Barnwell you and Brian Schneider are both
Speaker 1: building greens. What's the different dynamic when you're working by
Speaker 1: yourself versus when you're working collectively with a group, and
Speaker 1: what you know are the things that you like or
Speaker 1: maybe don't like about either.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, working with Tom, one of the things
Speaker 2: that I picked on picked up on quickly is he's
Speaker 2: willing to hear ideas from everybody and filter them accordingly.
Speaker 2: So when I was an intern at Dismal River, we
Speaker 2: you know, one of his something he wanted to do
Speaker 2: is drive around with every intern and spend a day
Speaker 2: with them, and so he was constantly he was like
Speaker 2: picking my brain for things that I would do, and
Speaker 2: most of them were flushed down the toilet. But that
Speaker 2: was always that was a good reminder of like, yeah, man,
Speaker 2: like a good idea can come from anywhere, So the
Speaker 2: process of building a green or the process of doing
Speaker 2: the work doesn't really change. And then that's something that like, Okay,
Speaker 2: the roles are reversed. But I had shaping help up
Speaker 2: there from two younger guys who have worked with Doglott
Speaker 2: and Brian Scheider, Andre Buchco and Great Carlton, and you know,
Speaker 2: asking what they would do, or you know, trying to
Speaker 2: get input from them of what we should do, or
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of it's me saying like, Hey,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do this over here, and sometimes I
Speaker 2: have a really clear picture in my head and sometimes
Speaker 2: I don't. And you know, that's that's the fun of
Speaker 2: building golf, whether you're the one whose stuff is being
Speaker 2: edited or you're the editor. You know, having that process
Speaker 2: in place of like a good idea can come from
Speaker 2: anywhere is important. So as far as me building greens,
Speaker 2: it's like sometimes when you're a Tom, you're willing to
Speaker 2: like take a chance. It's because he's a safety net,
Speaker 2: so you can build something wacky and he can come
Speaker 2: around and just be like, yeah, that's stupid. You know,
Speaker 2: when you're doing yourself, you kind of got to be
Speaker 2: your own safety net, or you've got to like you've
Speaker 2: got to be editing in the back of your head too,
Speaker 2: or just realizing like yeah, you know, sometimes it's like
Speaker 2: what would Tom say about this, Well, I'd probably say
Speaker 2: lower at six inches, and it's you know, the golf's
Speaker 2: going to be the same, it's just going to be
Speaker 2: that much more accommodating for the higher handicapper. So yeah,
Speaker 2: sometimes his voice is in the back of my head,
Speaker 2: or Schneider's voice in the back of my head, or Iverson,
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's nice. You know, it's nice being able
Speaker 2: to like, yeah, be the person. Then who's you know,
Speaker 2: providing mentorship or tutelage to other young guys.
Speaker 1: In your career? You know, you you're still young by
Speaker 1: you know, golf architecture standards. You're you're very young. You know,
Speaker 1: are there architectural ideas that you've grown less interested in
Speaker 1: as you've gained experience, like you know, kind of take
Speaker 1: us on your journey as as an architect who thinks
Speaker 1: about this all the time. Are there things that you've
Speaker 1: drawn less interested in and likewise more interested in?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this will probably ruffle your feathers. But I
Speaker 2: I used to love Langford and think he was like
Speaker 2: the best architect in the world, and I he's the
Speaker 2: more Langford stuff I see in the older I get,
Speaker 2: it's like the less I appreciate it. I shouldn't say
Speaker 2: less I appreciate it, but more I'm like coming back
Speaker 2: down to earth, you know, like that Sonya is not
Speaker 2: a nine, you know what I mean? Where I originally
Speaker 2: thought it was.
Speaker 1: So that and I think what about it has you know,
Speaker 1: kind of like as you've seen more what about the
Speaker 1: Langford work? In particular, you have have you just cooled
Speaker 1: on Not that I don't. It's not that you hate Langford,
Speaker 1: you just aren't as high on him.
Speaker 2: No, And a lot of it is just the raised
Speaker 2: green pads. I think the shapes are really cool. I
Speaker 2: think some of the strategy that he was evoking was
Speaker 2: really it was like really provocative, and it was harkening
Speaker 2: back to some of the stuff that see bing McDonald
Speaker 2: was doing, but he was doing it with his own
Speaker 2: little flavor, and so I think like the bunker strategy
Speaker 2: and the style that he did it was really cool.
Speaker 2: But but a product of how he of his process
Speaker 2: and of his technique is just like a ton of
Speaker 2: raised greens that are only received through an aerial shot
Speaker 2: swich is kind of cool because in a way I
Speaker 2: can like I can put that into my brain and say, Okay,
Speaker 2: what like what if Langford built a punch bowl or
Speaker 2: if length you know, it's like, how would Langford have
Speaker 2: built a punch bowl? And then you could just like
Speaker 2: I'm going to try to build a Langford punch bowl,
Speaker 2: you know, where I'm gonna try.
Speaker 1: To raise up frau that a big ball.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, or just yeah, So there's there's things like
Speaker 2: that that you you know, as you refine your taste
Speaker 2: and see more golf, you just start to it's you know,
Speaker 2: it's like it's like placing stuff in order.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like, if what I had seen twenty golf courses,
Speaker 2: Lasonia might have been number two, But now that I've
Speaker 2: seen you know, four or five hundred golf courses like Lasonium,
Speaker 2: it's not number two anymore. So though, you know, it's
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff that's like it's, uh, it's it's
Speaker 2: fun to pick on him a little bit because I
Speaker 2: know you guys are such Langford lovers, but I mean.
Speaker 1: As similar a boat as you.
Speaker 4: Like.
Speaker 1: You know, law Sonia was a course I played as
Speaker 1: a kid, and I was like, this is the most
Speaker 1: one of the most amazing courses I've ever played in
Speaker 1: my life. And you know, I think for given public
Speaker 1: golf in America like los Sonia, for the price they
Speaker 1: charge and the quality of product, has got to be
Speaker 1: a top ten facility if you combine price and product. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it just you know, part of golf is you know,
Speaker 1: it just you know, there's a lot of other places
Speaker 1: that are really cool. What I find fascinating about it
Speaker 1: is like, you know, there was the Perry Maxwell. I
Speaker 1: think there was a Perry Maxwell Langford beef. You know
Speaker 1: Maxwell who you know he had basically the complete polar
Speaker 1: opposite style of Langford. For those that don't know who
Speaker 1: we're talking about, is like, you know, William Blankford and
Speaker 1: Theodore Moreau built really like manufactured, big feature stuff, as
Speaker 1: Blake hinted at, like everything kind of goes up versus
Speaker 1: Perry Maxwell was like extremely economical and I would say
Speaker 1: pretty pretty naturalist type of off architecture where you know,
Speaker 1: he's he's trying to move as little earth as he
Speaker 1: can and if he's doing that, he's trying to blend
Speaker 1: it into nature. But they you know, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of There was some Perry Maxwell writing about like
Speaker 1: how you know those that use steam shovels are just
Speaker 1: you know, don't don't have skill effectively, is what he
Speaker 1: was saying. And if you think about it, they were
Speaker 1: working in the same area at the same time and
Speaker 1: oftentimes renovating each other's courses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, I will a hot take on Perry Maxwell
Speaker 2: is I don't I can't think of a course he
Speaker 2: worked on that he's well known for where Dean Woods
Speaker 2: was not his shaper. Dean Woods helped build Dornic Hills
Speaker 2: and he was the point man at Crystal Downs. And yeah,
Speaker 2: if you start to like pull that thread a little bit,
Speaker 2: you'll realize, like Dean Woods was everywhere that Perry Maxwell
Speaker 2: is most well known for. So it's one of those
Speaker 2: things to lining. It's like, you know, everybody wants to
Speaker 2: like glorify the shaper and you know, make a big
Speaker 2: name out of that person who's like, oh, it's like,
Speaker 2: well who Tom who shape your greens? You know, it's
Speaker 2: like but you start to, yeah, you start to look
Speaker 2: into Perry Maxwell a little bit, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe Dean Woods deserves a little bit of credit. You know,
Speaker 2: maybe he's like seems like he was like the Eric
Speaker 2: iverson to Perry Maxwell.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting part with like Langford and Moreau,
Speaker 1: Like if you go play William Blakeford course that Moreau
Speaker 1: wasn't involved with, you're kind of like, uh whatever, And
Speaker 1: and I think it probably is underrepresented. And I mean
Speaker 1: I know that there's a lot of that with with
Speaker 1: Donald Ross too. It was depending on the shaper, you know,
Speaker 1: the or the construction Foreman effectively. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of times it was referred to, you know, the golf
Speaker 1: courses like you know greatly, you know, even stylistically can
Speaker 1: change from from course of course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean we could. We could go
Speaker 2: down a rabbit hole too. Of Like you know, Mackenzie's
Speaker 2: six weeks in Australia, it's like, god, he just like
Speaker 2: you walk into Markham right, like if he if he's
Speaker 2: a dud, then what what becomes of all this stuff?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: That's I mean, same thing with Hunter and Maxwell to
Speaker 1: a certain extent. I was just reading a thing that
Speaker 1: Josh Pennitt posted this week about like how Mackenzie came
Speaker 1: back to look at the Metal Club and he was
Speaker 1: really thrilled with Hunter's work. And it's like he left
Speaker 1: and he would just he would just come back and
Speaker 1: the course would be done and he would like you know,
Speaker 1: you think about like that's the way certain sub architects
Speaker 1: work today. You know, there's an infamous story of Nick
Speaker 1: Faldo gant gloss on opening day at one of his
Speaker 1: golf courses, driving to the golf course because you know
Speaker 1: he had been there. But that is the way some
Speaker 1: people people still work where it's like, hey, here are
Speaker 1: your plans, go build it. But the era we've gotten in,
Speaker 1: you know, is much more of a craftsmanship, you know,
Speaker 1: era of golf design, where you know, the the InVogue
Speaker 1: popular golf architects are the ones that are either doing
Speaker 1: the work or or pretty attuned to the work and
Speaker 1: the people that are doing the work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. And it's something that's like it's
Speaker 2: been said for well before this era, but it's it's
Speaker 2: just really hard to draw plans for every golfer and
Speaker 2: every detail of every golful and just like nail it
Speaker 2: on the first try, you know. And and the guys
Speaker 2: who are design bid you know, just they draw plans.
Speaker 2: They know that they spend a lot of time like
Speaker 2: visiting site and editing stuff. But you know a lot
Speaker 2: of times when that's the process, it's like, oh, make
Speaker 2: these edits and I'll be back in five days. And
Speaker 2: then it's like you're either there's either like a latency
Speaker 2: with that or you're kind of twiddling your thumbs just
Speaker 2: like waiting around, or you're you're going and working on
Speaker 2: other stuff. And so it's like it's nice to be
Speaker 2: able to a like be building the stuff, be there
Speaker 2: every day, but also like not have that lost in
Speaker 2: translation moment or the like playing the telephone game trying
Speaker 2: to relay an idea through four different people. So it's
Speaker 2: I think there's there's an efficiency that you see when
Speaker 2: it's like a design build product project that the clients
Speaker 2: maybe really like if they're just like if they're touring
Speaker 2: through and you know, Gil hands on a dozer building
Speaker 2: a green and there's like three excavators around him, It's like, man,
Speaker 2: it's fuck, Like work's happening, Like this is awesome, Like
Speaker 2: I'm getting my money's worth here, you know. So I
Speaker 2: think it's got that appeal more than anything I've.
Speaker 1: I think that there's just a power of interests aligning
Speaker 1: as well in the design build, where like you're you're
Speaker 1: more I think you can run into issues, and I
Speaker 1: think there are like great contractors and they're mediocre contractors
Speaker 1: and bad contractors, like any any industry. But one of
Speaker 1: the things that you know, architects and that you know
Speaker 1: you've obviously worked mostly in the design build, you know,
Speaker 1: set up, but one of the things is like the
Speaker 1: architects if they're contracting the shapers, you know, and working
Speaker 1: with the shapers regularly they are going to be aligned
Speaker 1: on the product, and the architect aligns with the club
Speaker 1: or course that they're building. Where it gets tricky is like,
Speaker 1: you know, and this is just you have to use
Speaker 1: contractors for stuff, regardless of you know, like you're building
Speaker 1: golf course, you're going to use some contractors. But the
Speaker 1: contractors are just trying to get the thing done for
Speaker 1: the most part, and they aren't as invested in the
Speaker 1: architecture or the finished product as they are their budget timeline.
Speaker 1: And I know I'm generalizing. I don't want any contractors
Speaker 1: to get after me. I'm like I said, there are
Speaker 1: good ones, at bad ones and mediocre ones, but like,
Speaker 1: just in general, inherently a contractor enters a different set
Speaker 1: of kind of goals and variables to a project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, and no, I generally agree with you. So
Speaker 2: I'm not going to you know, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: like rebut what you're saying. But also I do think
Speaker 2: there's this bottom line of like everybody answers to the client,
Speaker 2: and then whoever is representing the client on site every
Speaker 2: day kind of like has the final say. So a
Speaker 2: lot of it, a lot of the decision making is
Speaker 2: driven from the top down. Like if the client has
Speaker 2: you know, empowered Brian and me with agency and autonomy
Speaker 2: to do what we please and just make the best
Speaker 2: golf course we can, then whether the contractor is good, bad,
Speaker 2: or indifferent, it's they're they're going to fall online because
Speaker 2: it's like, well, either like that that's the mandate coming
Speaker 2: from the top and if I charge more like the
Speaker 2: client is okay with that because it's all on an
Speaker 2: effort to make the golf course good. So I think
Speaker 2: they're you know, I've been lucky to to not be
Speaker 2: on a lot of like horrible projects where it's just
Speaker 2: gone haywire. So maybe my perspective is like a little
Speaker 2: bit of rainbows at sunshine and I need to Yeah,
Speaker 2: I need to get in the real world a little.
Speaker 1: Bit, or you you guys, get outside your bubble.
Speaker 3: You should have been.
Speaker 2: Able to back in ninety six when there, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, I didn't. I don't have that perspective.
Speaker 2: But you know, for the most part, it's like even
Speaker 2: going back to like twenty thirteen when I that was
Speaker 2: like the first renovation restoration Jabozon with Brian at Medina
Speaker 2: and just you know, contractors of that era and then
Speaker 2: even like ten years later, like they've gotten a lot better.
Speaker 2: And I think there was some pushback because back then
Speaker 2: it was still like shaping was still a thing that
Speaker 2: they did and budgeted for, and so when you took
Speaker 2: that out of their nut, that was like that was
Speaker 2: maybe that's where a lot of their margins were coming from,
Speaker 2: and they didn't know what It's like, well, shit, now
Speaker 2: we have to build our margins in you know, drain pipeer, gravel,
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is. And it's like so I
Speaker 2: think there was always some animosity and friction when when
Speaker 2: that was the case. And I think contractors are just
Speaker 2: like a lot of them now like working in the
Speaker 2: design build way because you know, they're it's not a hobby.
Speaker 2: They still need to make money, right, It's like they're
Speaker 2: not they're not doing it for the love of putting
Speaker 2: in drain pipes. So everybody understands it, like they need
Speaker 2: to make money. But they've figured out their business model
Speaker 2: just just through time and through trial and error, Like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what's the best way to work with design build guys.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, a lot of us are just prima
Speaker 2: donnas who want what we want and like we don't
Speaker 2: want to grease the machine or fuel it up. And
Speaker 2: it's like they're just cool doing that because it's a
Speaker 2: little line item that they can build for and like
Speaker 2: everything's great and copesthetic on site and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: whatever you need. So so I think a lot of
Speaker 2: them have gotten like there's a ton of really good
Speaker 2: contractors out there. And I will say just to you know,
Speaker 2: like I know Trip Davis has He's got his own
Speaker 2: shaper who travels around with him and builds all this stuff.
Speaker 2: I think Andy Stables had uses his own shapers.
Speaker 1: So even like like er Green and works with McDonald's
Speaker 1: sons everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think even these guys who maybe work
Speaker 2: a little bit different than Doak or the way we
Speaker 2: work where we want to shape everything, it's like they
Speaker 2: still exercise their control over like, hey that I want
Speaker 2: my guy building the greens because we have a language
Speaker 2: that we speak that makes communication easier. May you know,
Speaker 2: it's going to be more efficient. He knows what I like.
Speaker 2: So I think I think a lot of those guys
Speaker 2: do have people like that they travel around with and
Speaker 2: they work with.
Speaker 1: Uh. In that answer, you know, you hit on a
Speaker 1: subject I wasn't planning to get to I didn't realize
Speaker 1: that you were a part of the Madida one project.
Speaker 1: That that is. I think it's the most underrated course
Speaker 1: in Chicago.
Speaker 2: It's the most underrated factory and camel in Chicago. And
Speaker 2: yours truly built the bunker.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you build the camel bunker.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I rough shaped it in and my man Raffulio
Speaker 2: finished up Brian. Brian might give her a Fulio a
Speaker 2: little more credit than than than me, but yeah, and then.
Speaker 3: Uh, we had a dinner.
Speaker 2: They put on a dinner when Tom was in town,
Speaker 2: and they you know, I was lucky enough to get
Speaker 2: an invite. It was like it must have been like
Speaker 2: the Greens Committee or something. But I sat next to
Speaker 2: a gentleman who explained to me the difference between a
Speaker 2: Dromedary and a Bactrian camel and why they chose to
Speaker 2: have a bactory and camel for uh, for the for
Speaker 2: the camel at Madonna number one and Dramedary is one
Speaker 2: hump bactory and is two hump. You can remember that
Speaker 2: because Bactriyan is a sideways b Laying down.
Speaker 1: This sounds like information that's gonna be really valuable when
Speaker 1: your kid asked you about camels. Yeah, and maybe not
Speaker 1: this podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, no, this is very useful information anyway.
Speaker 1: I will say obligatory take a picture of the camel
Speaker 1: bucker every time up there.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, so that that project. I finished grad school.
Speaker 2: I had jury the after graduating, and then so my
Speaker 2: last thing I did in Athens, Georgia was jury duty,
Speaker 2: and then I drove up to Medina and helped finish
Speaker 2: up there. Mike mccarton had done a lot of like
Speaker 2: the work under Brian who was running the job, so
Speaker 2: there were only a few bunkers left to build, and
Speaker 2: then it was just like finishing greens and doing finished
Speaker 2: work and stuff.
Speaker 1: All right, I've got a couple, you know, just kind
Speaker 1: of general golf golf architecture questions for you. What's the
Speaker 1: golf locale that you think in all of your travels
Speaker 1: you alluded to seeing four or five hundred courses. What's
Speaker 1: the golf locale that every golfer should go to in
Speaker 1: their lives if you had to pick one, I.
Speaker 2: Had to pick one. I mean, I guess it goes
Speaker 2: without saying like the UK, like you just go to
Speaker 2: see St.
Speaker 3: Andrews. It's like everybody should go do that.
Speaker 2: So maybe take that off the board because that's kind
Speaker 2: of like that's that's sort of like everybody's pick.
Speaker 1: I feel like that is the answer. And what people
Speaker 1: need to realize is you can just go and you
Speaker 1: could go and sit there, enter the ballot every day
Speaker 1: and if you don't win, you play on an old
Speaker 1: Tom course, the new course or the course, the Harry
Speaker 1: Colt course, Like just do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if there's like this hesitancy
Speaker 2: to like to rent a car or to just be
Speaker 2: just be free over there. But it's like you can
Speaker 2: got like you just go rent a car and you
Speaker 2: could like you can just have your own wheels and
Speaker 2: drive around. And we're so used to driving far in
Speaker 2: the United States, like you're like the road warrior when
Speaker 2: you drive your own car over in the UK. Like
Speaker 2: I remember, I played Press in the morning and then
Speaker 2: I drove to cruden Bay and I played cruden Bay
Speaker 2: in the afternoon, and then I drove back down to
Speaker 2: Saint Andrews and I was I was talking to somebody
Speaker 2: at the pub and they were like what the like,
Speaker 2: are you fucking kidding me? Like you did all that?
Speaker 2: And I was like it's like four hours in the car,
Speaker 2: Like this is nothing, so you can you can get
Speaker 2: to a ton of places when you're over there, you know.
Speaker 3: The the other I haven't.
Speaker 2: I haven't had a chance to like see golf around Paris,
Speaker 2: but I really want to. The trip around London or
Speaker 2: the Australian sand Belt would be my other two. Like
Speaker 2: there's just so much golf in a dense area that
Speaker 2: it's worth seeing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Melbourne's like and it's gonna you know, so many
Speaker 1: people have invited me down for various things and it's
Speaker 1: not it's not the invite that's it's just me getting
Speaker 1: and leaving for you know, ten days is kind of
Speaker 1: holding me back. But like, to me, the Melbourne one
Speaker 1: sticks out as probably the one that I most want
Speaker 1: to do along with like New Zealand's the other one.
Speaker 1: For me. Melbourne there's something about like being in a
Speaker 1: world renowned city and it being so close to all
Speaker 1: this world class golf, Like the combination of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you can go do nice stuff at night. You know,
Speaker 1: you're not just that that's something that you know, on
Speaker 1: its face appeals to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I am out of I am not doing
Speaker 2: like ten day golf trips where you're fitting in thirty
Speaker 2: six holes a day, Like I'm I'm over it, I'm
Speaker 2: done with it. It's it's done. I would be much
Speaker 2: happier doing a ten day trip where I see seven
Speaker 2: golf courses that are great and then have some time
Speaker 2: to like, yeah, go experience the culture.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like take takes some time to just have a
Speaker 2: really nice, drawn out dinner, just like walk around the
Speaker 2: city a little bit, like yeah, I don't need to.
Speaker 3: I don't need to bust.
Speaker 2: My hump for you know, a week straight and then
Speaker 2: just like be sore for two weeks afterwards.
Speaker 1: This is You've just explained why I keep balking on
Speaker 1: Australia or New Zealand. As I continued, like every time
Speaker 1: I think about it, I add another week to the
Speaker 1: trip because it's mostly non golf stuff that I want
Speaker 1: to do in the area. But yeah, I think those
Speaker 1: are great answers, and it's I'm kind of with you
Speaker 1: with the packing the golf in I did a trip
Speaker 1: to Saint Andrews last year and we just had one
Speaker 1: round of golf every day, but I had the mornings
Speaker 1: free because we did it so people could win the
Speaker 1: ballot and play the old course. But like having my
Speaker 1: boardings free, it was like a delight. It was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I went out and played golf in the afternoon, came
Speaker 1: back for dinner, and my boarding was wide open. And
Speaker 1: it allowed me so much optionality into terms of what
Speaker 1: I wanted to do. I could go play golf if
Speaker 1: I wanted to. All right, we're gonna try this, uh,
Speaker 1: this rapid fire segment. This is a new thing that
Speaker 1: we're gonna try on architecture pods. Here. I got to
Speaker 1: give you a place or a person or a you know,
Speaker 1: and you tell me the first thing that comes to
Speaker 1: your mind when I say this, let's start with Riviera.
Speaker 2: Oh that's it. That's the that's the way you're doing this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: let's start with Riviera. It makes me think of KURBYR. Enthusiasm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Black Swan episode, Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, Disgruntled, Yeah, all all the times that Riviera. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like, well, it's not Riviera, but it's Riviera. People
Speaker 2: who know know that it's Riviera's Larry David's club. It's like,
Speaker 2: so every time golf is introduced in KIRBYR. Enthusiasm, and
Speaker 2: I think of Riviera, And then I think of Michael Yamachi,
Speaker 2: who that character is based on. And I played golf
Speaker 2: with Michael Yamachi at Dos Renaissance Cups, and he's like
Speaker 2: the nicest guy in the world, and he loves talking
Speaker 2: golf architecture, and so it's just this funny little like yeah,
Speaker 2: six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's go Alistair Mackenzie.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, probably somehow underrated. Yeah go on, yeah, I
Speaker 2: just yeah, I I you start to like look at
Speaker 2: the list of stuff that he's done and then he's
Speaker 2: worked on, and you're just like, man, that's that guy
Speaker 2: had a good run there in like a short period
Speaker 2: of time, Like you think of you think of these
Speaker 2: like these great runs throughout history that people have been on,
Speaker 2: you know what it crosses, you know, sports or architecture
Speaker 2: or any field whatsoever. It's just like that's pretty good.
Speaker 1: I you know, it's I don't think like, I don't
Speaker 1: think most people would say like La Hinch is the
Speaker 1: best course in the UK or the UK or in Ireland,
Speaker 1: you know, but it's like definitely of like a top tier,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's very high on people's bucket. Lists,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying it's the best, but like you know,
Speaker 1: if somebody told you in all of Ireland in the UK,
Speaker 1: La Hinch is my favorite place, you wouldn't be like
Speaker 1: that's crazy, get out of here, you know. And you
Speaker 1: to think like he conceivably did that over four continent
Speaker 1: with you could make a case for a couple of
Speaker 1: courses in America, South America and then Australia. It's mind blowing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's like when you talk about Tiger Woods, you know,
Speaker 2: and people are like, okay, if you only take what
Speaker 2: he did at the US Open, like that's the eighth
Speaker 2: best career of anybody, you know, whatever it is. It's like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, he had all that work in the UK
Speaker 2: in Australia. You know. It's like mackenzie's work in the
Speaker 2: US is like unbelievable in itself. It's you know, I've
Speaker 2: seen hardly anything of his in the UK, and I'm
Speaker 2: so eager to because you know, my friend Clyde who
Speaker 2: consulted a lot of these clubs in the UK that
Speaker 2: are McKenzie courses and consults a Titterangi down in New Zealand.
Speaker 2: It's like all these places look incredible, and it's just
Speaker 2: it's like, man, it's just like banger after Bank, you know,
Speaker 2: like they're they're U. Yeah, there's so much great stuff
Speaker 2: that he did, but even the stuff that he isn't
Speaker 2: well known for should be better known.
Speaker 1: So I should put published at some point my list
Speaker 1: of like the places that I haven't gotten to that
Speaker 1: are like kind of obscure that I really want to
Speaker 1: get to. Near the top of it is that Cavendish place.
Speaker 1: I think I pronounced it correct. It's like the fifty
Speaker 1: four hundred yard Alisair McKenzie course in England, and it
Speaker 1: looks delightful, like I dream about playing there. I don't
Speaker 1: know what I'm ever going to get there.
Speaker 2: But right, you know, yeah, I mean that would be
Speaker 2: a fun trip to do, just like all right, I
Speaker 2: want to see the mackenzie UK stuff and I'm sure
Speaker 2: it would blow me away.
Speaker 1: I wanted to do that. I talked to a friend
Speaker 1: of mine, you know, kind of runs our concierge. I
Speaker 1: was like, hey, can we do like an Alistair McKenzie
Speaker 1: UK trip? And he's like, Andy, that is so illogical
Speaker 1: and you end up driving by so many great courses
Speaker 1: to do this that it's a terrible idea, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: but I think it would be cool, right, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: I just I went I'd only played Alistair McKenzie courses
Speaker 1: for a week.
Speaker 2: There. Certainly there's enough sickos in your community that you
Speaker 2: could get like eight people or twelve people, you know,
Speaker 2: whatever you need to make it work. Like they'd be
Speaker 2: willing to pass by all these great places in an
Speaker 2: effort to do this thing.
Speaker 1: Right, I think like I kind of side with of
Speaker 1: those like if you're there, I always like because it's
Speaker 1: like the idea of like, you know, how many people
Speaker 1: went to NCR in the seventies and eighties when it
Speaker 1: was ranked as like one of the greatest courses in
Speaker 1: you know, in the country, and right next door was
Speaker 1: Moraine and nobody went to Moraine, you know.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was kind of flipped, which is which
Speaker 1: is fascinating, all right. Next up Pine Hills.
Speaker 2: Pine Hills loved it. Second best golf course in Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: What's the best course in Wisconsin? Yeah, yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 2: It's really good. I know people hate on it. No,
Speaker 2: it's the Pine Hills question. Yeah, Harry Smead, I was
Speaker 2: really impressed and a lot of the work that they've undertaken,
Speaker 2: especially like you can tell that the tree work is
Speaker 2: really good and there's still more to do, but it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, you have to chip away at trees. Trees
Speaker 2: aren't a thing that just like happen overnight. But you know,
Speaker 2: for any golf course, if you get the trees in
Speaker 2: the grassing lines right, like you're eighty percent of the
Speaker 2: way there, you know, it's it's it's the detailed stuff
Speaker 2: that everybody wants to spend a ton of money on.
Speaker 2: That's the last like fifteen to twenty percent. It's like, no,
Speaker 2: it's spend a little bit of money and get the
Speaker 2: eighty percent right. I think Pine Hill has done a
Speaker 2: really good job of that.
Speaker 1: I I think that's like one of the worst things
Speaker 1: going on in the industry right now is like two
Speaker 1: may places aren't content enough with being eighty percent, which
Speaker 1: like the amount of money you have to spend to
Speaker 1: get to ninety five is insane, and the vast majority
Speaker 1: of golfers don't even know. And the cost, the cost
Speaker 1: gets passed on to everybody.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, how and how you know? Have you
Speaker 2: seen that there's a video of the professor who's filling
Speaker 2: up the big jug. And he starts with the biggest
Speaker 2: thing first, you know, it starts with like pingpong balls,
Speaker 2: and it's like is the jug full? In the classroom
Speaker 2: says yes, and then he puts in like marbles, you know,
Speaker 2: and they fill up the void between the ping pong balls.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, is it full now? And everybody says yes,
Speaker 2: and he keeps feeling it with smaller and smaller things,
Speaker 2: and it's like, you know, it's like the point is
Speaker 2: start with the base of the most important things, and
Speaker 2: then as you solidify that, work on the stuff that
Speaker 2: is more and more detail or less important. And so
Speaker 2: often it's like people have the they've got the pyramid
Speaker 2: turned upside down.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, we need we need new bunkers, the
Speaker 2: new bunkers sand and you know, we need new grass here.
Speaker 2: And it's like you need new grass because you've got
Speaker 2: like ten trees over there that are casting shade on
Speaker 2: the green. It's like, so you're just gonna regrass it
Speaker 2: every year until you cut those trees down. It's like,
Speaker 2: just cut the fucking trees down, and you could spend
Speaker 2: a tenth of what you know, you could spend ten
Speaker 2: cents on the dollar to what you're spending. But you know,
Speaker 2: the average club member doesn't want that. They want like
Speaker 2: flat tea boxes, and they want fresh sand and good sand,
Speaker 2: and they want fast greens. And so that's where a
Speaker 2: club is going to spend their money.
Speaker 4: Consistent bunkers, consistent bunkers, consistent Yeah, fast greens, and yeah,
Speaker 4: god forbid, a tea box is like a two percent,
Speaker 4: you know, instead of like the point seventy five percent
Speaker 4: the laser level.
Speaker 1: You know, it's you know, I think about it as
Speaker 1: a kid, like I grew up like like such slanted
Speaker 1: tea boxes, you know, because it's actually like that era design.
Speaker 1: They get built up and then the drought kind of
Speaker 1: settles and they settle like this, and you know that
Speaker 1: was a great, you know, skill development moment for you.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you're on the fifteen. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: this is a hook, lie, so I got to choke
Speaker 1: up on the club and aim a little right to
Speaker 1: hit the fairway here all right, next to the rapid fire.
Speaker 1: Charles alson boring.
Speaker 2: No, he's you know, he's just like, yeah, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff that there's a lot of stuff of his.
Speaker 2: It's like it's well routed, it's really good work, but
Speaker 2: it's just like, oh, it's a lot of it's the same,
Speaker 2: and a lot of it's just big broad slopes. You know,
Speaker 2: we're uh, yeah, yeah, it's uh. I think he's I
Speaker 2: think he is a good golf architect, was a good
Speaker 2: golf architect. He knew what he was doing. This is
Speaker 2: me like backtracking now, and like I'm going to backslide
Speaker 2: on my comment. I just don't think he was great
Speaker 2: at building greens there. I think that's where I want
Speaker 2: to land the plane. Not a great greens builder.
Speaker 1: I think that almost every Alison course in America should
Speaker 1: just do a greens renovation.
Speaker 2: I don't know, you're gonna screw more stuff up if
Speaker 2: you do that than just like accept the fact, like
Speaker 2: like you're saying, why aren't people good enough with eighty percent,
Speaker 2: it's like accept the fact that you're just like a
Speaker 2: six or seven, and you're a really solid six or
Speaker 2: seven like they're so you know, it's really hard to
Speaker 2: go from a seven to an eight, and or go
Speaker 2: from an eight to a nine. And I don't I
Speaker 2: don't know if there are any Allison courses in the country.
Speaker 3: That are you know, a nine or an eight.
Speaker 2: But like Davenport, you know, like I love Davenport, it's great,
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of those greens that are just
Speaker 2: like they don't do much for me. And that's okay.
Speaker 2: I think if you tried to rebuild them, maybe you'd
Speaker 2: make it worse. You know, more often than not, you
Speaker 2: would make it worse than you would make it better
Speaker 2: if you had ten tries to do it.
Speaker 1: I think about I grew up Caddy, I got at
Speaker 1: Alison in course, and like I could go back there
Speaker 1: tomorrow and I would know every read on every green
Speaker 1: like the back of my hand. Like to me, there,
Speaker 1: I agree with you, is like they you know, and
Speaker 1: for people that he built just tilted greens, right, they
Speaker 1: just tilt one way and there's a lot of slope
Speaker 1: in them, and you can get challenging spots by having
Speaker 1: to put cross slope and they break a ton or
Speaker 1: you know, downhill putts are really fast, but for the
Speaker 1: most part, you know what's going to happen every single
Speaker 1: time you're on the green, like okay, this one breaks
Speaker 1: this way. I always remember as a Caddy, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: even have to get behind I had okay there for
Speaker 1: so long, I wouldn't even have to be behind the
Speaker 1: person putting's ball to give the read, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think that's maybe, you know where where he misses
Speaker 1: a little is like the zest of of of the green.
Speaker 1: And maybe it was just he was a bad putter
Speaker 1: and he wanted he wanted to reward his ball striking more.
Speaker 3: It could be.
Speaker 2: And I'm curious to you know, I've never done the
Speaker 2: trip to trip to Japan, and I would love to.
Speaker 2: It's like maybe the highest on my list of golf
Speaker 2: slash culture trips. I think that's like my number one
Speaker 2: place I want to go. And I've heard his stuff
Speaker 2: in Japan is different, and I would like to see it,
Speaker 2: and I would like to give him a chance and
Speaker 2: be an open book, or you'd be a yeah, be
Speaker 2: open to receiving what he did over there.
Speaker 1: And I think he's just happier over there and that's
Speaker 1: what led to better work.
Speaker 3: What's that?
Speaker 1: Do you think maybe he was just happier there and
Speaker 1: he built more exciting greens.
Speaker 3: Maybe yeah, I could. I don't know it.
Speaker 2: And maybe it harkens back to like who was running
Speaker 2: the jobs for him was building stuff over there. Maybe
Speaker 2: they were just better.
Speaker 1: What do you do you see any of your personal
Speaker 1: golf uh, you know, leading to bias in your work.
Speaker 2: No, No, because I'm yeah, I don't play enough golf
Speaker 2: and I don't have enough I don't have enough knowledge
Speaker 2: about my own game to create any type of bias
Speaker 2: of like what what I should build? Yeah, there's there's
Speaker 2: there's nothing going on up there. It's uh yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: if anything, it's being Actually, no, I have to be.
Speaker 2: There's one thing I'm biased about, and it's it's my height.
Speaker 2: Oftentimes when we're looking like from a tea box or
Speaker 2: you're trying, you know, you're really trying to get that
Speaker 2: last like foot of elevation change down of like can
Speaker 2: you see over this bunker? Can you see the green surface?
Speaker 2: I'm always the one in the group that's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're good, Like we're good, let's move on. And then
Speaker 2: you know, I'll look over at somebody who's put shorter
Speaker 2: than me. It's like just like kneel down to my
Speaker 2: level and see what you see. It's like, okay, that's fair.
Speaker 2: And then it's like kneel down another six inches and
Speaker 2: see what, Like Grandma sees, you know, and so I'm
Speaker 2: constantly reminding myself of like having to do that. So
Speaker 2: it's not something that's my game, but it's something that's
Speaker 2: like I'm six foot four, and yeah, visually I need
Speaker 2: to like understand what it's like to be five foot
Speaker 2: four for visibility purposes.
Speaker 1: When you're does your mood impact how you shape stuff?
Speaker 1: Like if you're in a bad mood, does that day's
Speaker 1: product come out differently than if you're in a good mood.
Speaker 2: Maybe if it's really bad, I might decide to do
Speaker 2: something different. You know. It's not like there's only one
Speaker 2: thing to do any day that I wake up. So
Speaker 2: if I'm like, I don't think I've ever been so
Speaker 2: pissed off that I'm like I can't build this green
Speaker 2: or I can't build this bunker. But maybe it's like
Speaker 2: there's some dirt that I know we need to shove
Speaker 2: over here by Thursday, So may I'll just go shove
Speaker 2: the dirt, you know. Or sometimes it's like if I
Speaker 2: know I've got to take a phone call at a
Speaker 2: certain time, it's like I'll want to be doing something
Speaker 2: that's like mindless rather than hey, I'm trying to like
Speaker 2: get the grades right and put the finishing touches on
Speaker 2: a green. The only thing, you know, it's like otherwise,
Speaker 2: I most of the time, I like, just like my
Speaker 2: first pass, I go as quick as possible, and it's
Speaker 2: super messy, and I want to just get the idea
Speaker 2: in as quickly as I can and then just go
Speaker 2: back to the tea or to the approach and see
Speaker 2: how it looks and then start refining from there. And
Speaker 2: so a lot of time that lends itself to like
Speaker 2: being rushed or being you know, being in some type
Speaker 2: of mood of like, all right, I'm just gonna get
Speaker 2: this done, like hog this dirt out of here real quick,
Speaker 2: like as fast as I can.
Speaker 3: But for the most part, man, I don't know.
Speaker 2: My disposition is usually I'm usually pretty, I'm usually not
Speaker 2: too fired up.
Speaker 1: I just was curious if you notice anything, you know,
Speaker 1: all right, last last thing. We'll get you out of
Speaker 1: here so you can go lock in for the Husker game. Here.
Speaker 1: Last last question. I you know you're you guys are
Speaker 1: currently building gil Roy at uh at Old Barnwell.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Obviously Old barn Well has gotten you know, tons of praise.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, been a kind of a smash hit. You're
Speaker 1: building second course there, tell tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about like what's going to make this one unique from
Speaker 1: from the original course, and and how you guys are
Speaker 1: going about building a second course at a facility like
Speaker 1: you know, on a Ruis piece of land.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know. Part of it is the
Speaker 2: land is different, and the way we're using the land
Speaker 2: is a little bit different. We're there's a big valley
Speaker 2: that cuts through the first course, and we're down the
Speaker 2: second course is downstream of that. The valley like in
Speaker 2: a broad sense, sort of opens up a little bit more,
Speaker 2: and those slopes, the side slopes lay back just enough
Speaker 2: that we can play off of them and on them
Speaker 2: and down them and up them a little bit more
Speaker 2: easily than we could have on the first course. The
Speaker 2: first course was more like you know, it's not quite
Speaker 2: straight up sixty feet, but it was something that we
Speaker 2: didn't want to tackle. It would have been a ton
Speaker 2: of earthwork. And and the valley down here where the
Speaker 2: gilroy is going to be is not that so we're
Speaker 2: able to use it a little bit differently, which will
Speaker 2: just lend itself to feeling different than the first course.
Speaker 2: We've found some different kinds of green sites, some on purpose,
Speaker 2: like intentionally, so like hey, we want like we want
Speaker 2: to have this green more smushed into the ground over here,
Speaker 2: even though we know there's like a cool ridge line
Speaker 2: that could be like an infinity type green or something.
Speaker 2: So making conscious choices like that during the routing process
Speaker 2: and then you know, aesthetically, how we treat that stylistically,
Speaker 2: how we treat that, which is you know, right now
Speaker 2: we're in the early stages of building golf and that's
Speaker 2: like it's a really fun time for Brian and me
Speaker 2: to be on site together because we just like we
Speaker 2: sort of have an idea what we want to do.
Speaker 2: But until you start tinkering around in the dirt and
Speaker 2: like you know, getting in the excavator, it's like, okay,
Speaker 2: this is like we could do this, or we could
Speaker 2: do this. You start to get a feel for what
Speaker 2: the site wants and like how you're going to treat
Speaker 2: the other eighteen holes, you know, the different things we
Speaker 2: could do. So that's kind of where we're at right now.
Speaker 2: So it's it's fun. It's like there isn't there isn't
Speaker 2: an answer to that question stylistically of like what it's
Speaker 2: going to be we know, we know it's going to
Speaker 2: be different because we want it to be a little
Speaker 2: bit different. Just as far as how I'm not really
Speaker 2: sure yet.
Speaker 1: All right, looking forward to seeing that I lied. One
Speaker 1: last question, uh dream dream locale to build your own
Speaker 1: golf course. End of your career. You look back and
Speaker 1: if there's one place you'd like to build a golf course,
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter who you know, it could
Speaker 1: you could be anywhere.
Speaker 2: Uh Omaha, Nebraska, so I could sleep in my own bed.
Speaker 1: Figured that would be the answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, anywhere in a city.
Speaker 3: Please.
Speaker 2: Just you know, Tom talks about putting stuff out into
Speaker 2: the universe. It's like, I'm going to put stuff out
Speaker 2: of the universe. If there's like a defunct golf course
Speaker 2: that is on a decent piece of land and it's
Speaker 2: surrounded by city, like, let's save it. Let's like the
Speaker 2: people have money, Like, let's let's not invest in the
Speaker 2: next like private destination, Like invest in that piece of
Speaker 2: land and then let's like build a really cool golf
Speaker 2: course on it. So then it's in a city and
Speaker 2: everybody can access it, and it's really like, you know,
Speaker 2: you can drive there instead of having to fly there.
Speaker 3: Be really great.
Speaker 1: Uh not turn into a Ryder Cup venue. All right,
Speaker 1: we'll leave on that, Blake, big thanks for coming coming on.
Speaker 1: People can UH check in on UH on what's going
Speaker 1: on you on your website dundee goolf dot com. Uh.
Speaker 1: They also can follow you on h on X or
Speaker 1: on UH on Instagram. So look forward to seeing your
Speaker 1: new work and UH it's always fun to chat golf
Speaker 1: with you. Thanks Andy, all right, big thanks for Blay
Speaker 1: joining in giving us his time sprecious time probably helped
Speaker 1: the time pass before the Huskers played Michigan. We'll know
Speaker 1: the result when you're listening to this. I'm hoping they
Speaker 1: keep the undefeated run going, one of the great stories
Speaker 1: in college basketball. As I mentioned at the top, we're
Speaker 1: gonna do a little Q and A segment. I think
Speaker 1: we might just do one queue here this week, just
Speaker 1: because it's already an hour. Nick Nelson had a question.
Speaker 1: States like Wisconsin, Nebraska, and the Carolinas have enjoyed a
Speaker 1: huge explosion of exceptional golf course development in the past
Speaker 1: few decades. Are there any states ripe for the same
Speaker 1: level of new development in the next ten years. I
Speaker 1: would say that one state missing from this is Texas
Speaker 1: and the explosion has kind of just started to happen.
Speaker 1: You obviously have new courses Luling Children's Hall, you have
Speaker 1: the Kaiser's Wild Spring Dunes, you have David McClay kidd
Speaker 1: did a course there in Austin called uh I think
Speaker 1: it's uh Laura Loma h. So you're starting to see
Speaker 1: a ton of development in Texas. There's obviously the Big Covey,
Speaker 1: which one golf digests best new course. That's a ton
Speaker 1: of big development area. I think just in general, when
Speaker 1: you look at golf development, you need states that have
Speaker 1: ample land and uh, pretty lax regulatory situations. So when
Speaker 1: you think about that, like the western part of the
Speaker 1: United States, one of the issues that they are going
Speaker 1: to confront all the time is water. But they have
Speaker 1: a ton of land, So it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: trade off, like, are you going to see some great
Speaker 1: projects come out of the West. That's like kind of
Speaker 1: like a maybe because of the issues with natural resources,
Speaker 1: although they have a abundant land. Am I going to
Speaker 1: see a bunch of new projects up in the in
Speaker 1: the northeast of the United States? No, there's no land,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to find two hundred plus part acre parcels.
Speaker 1: That's it's expensive and it's going to be really challenging
Speaker 1: and you're gonna end up being pretty remote with short seasons.
Speaker 1: So I think like where you see a lot of
Speaker 1: this happening, you know, the unlock of the Carolinas is
Speaker 1: like it's a twelve month season. It's a realistic like
Speaker 1: people play golf twelve months a year there. I think
Speaker 1: that's where you see that. Nebraska I think is like
Speaker 1: kind of quasi you know, it's just not you know,
Speaker 1: the season's really short and it's going to be the
Speaker 1: sand hills, and like one of the challenges of building
Speaker 1: like you go find great land to the sand hills tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Like you know, there's if you go look on land sites,
Speaker 1: you can find great land for golf. Now, one of
Speaker 1: the tricky things with Nebraska that nobody thinks about is
Speaker 1: it's hard to staff NOSCA. A state that might be
Speaker 1: ripe for development could be looking in Oklahoma. Oklahoma. I
Speaker 1: think there's some areas of sand in Oklahoma which people
Speaker 1: like to build golf golf courses on. But I think
Speaker 1: the other kind of sneaky thing about Oklahoma, it's got
Speaker 1: a really nice playing season I you know, I went
Speaker 1: down and played Dornic Hills right after it opened back
Speaker 1: up after their renovation, which is about an hour and
Speaker 1: a half north of Dallas or more, Oklahoma. But I
Speaker 1: went and played there in mid November. It was seventy
Speaker 1: degrees and sunny, so you get those like much longer
Speaker 1: seasons there. And I think that that could be an
Speaker 1: area where you might look in in the future and say, hey,
Speaker 1: there could be development there. I think if you look in,
Speaker 1: you know, Georgia could be a state that you might
Speaker 1: see more development. And but I think, like overall, you
Speaker 1: got to look for places that have a lot of
Speaker 1: available land and you know, population nearby. That's the other
Speaker 1: big thing. I don't think the Kaisers when they built
Speaker 1: Sand Valley had really thought about like the population within
Speaker 1: four hours of it when they when they started. But
Speaker 1: what became abundantly clear about like a public golf resort
Speaker 1: is that population within a driving distance is hugely important
Speaker 1: to the success. And you know, with Sand Valley, you
Speaker 1: have Minneapolis, Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, you know, Iowa all within
Speaker 1: like an easy shot of of the of the golf
Speaker 1: and and I think that's like a huge part of
Speaker 1: their success beyond delivering a great product. So I think
Speaker 1: like the the most important things to look at are
Speaker 1: you know, resources in terms of land and water. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then you know the the laws like are they
Speaker 1: going to play ball and want to you know, build golf.
Speaker 1: And then then the back half of it is like
Speaker 1: depending on what type of facility you want to build,
Speaker 1: population nearby uh, And that's how you kind of I
Speaker 1: would triangulate finding places that you want to build golf.
Speaker 1: So UH. Anyways, we'll do more questions. We have a
Speaker 1: lot of like different golf course golf questions from PGA
Speaker 1: tour to golf course architecture and we will loop in
Speaker 1: PJ for them. He didn't want to join this one.
Speaker 1: He didn't feel like he was going to add to that,
Speaker 1: but he probably would have. We could have asked him
Speaker 1: where he would have liked liked golf to go. But
Speaker 1: thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to jake to myself. I'll say it
Speaker 1: here and if if he doesn't come through, UH, that
Speaker 1: is you know, he blood's on his hand. But what
Speaker 1: schedule is our first chat with Trevor Trevor Immelman next week? Uh,
Speaker 1: look for looking forward to talking a little bit of
Speaker 1: golf with him. It's been a while since we last talked.
Speaker 1: I think we haven't talked since since the Open. So
Speaker 1: look forward to chatting with Trevor and we'll catch you
Speaker 1: next week. Thanks for listening.