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Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a fried egg

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Speaker 2: Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, Frida Egg, fridagg Bride egg, Lie,

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Speaker 2: I'm about ready to run.

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Speaker 1: Off of the hump. Welcome back to the Friday Golf Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I am your host and Andy Johnson.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: This week, I'm excited to be joined by one of

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Speaker 1: golf's young, bright, up and coming golf architects, Blake Cone.

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Speaker 1: Blake has been on this podcast a few times, but

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Speaker 1: with me a long time ago, and since his career

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Speaker 1: has really progressed. UH, He's done some solo work on

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Speaker 1: his own. He's continued to work a lot with Tom Doak,

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Speaker 1: and he was a co designer of Old Barnwell, kind

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Speaker 1: of one of the big courses in the last five

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Speaker 1: years that opened. So I was really excited to chat

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Speaker 1: with Blake and kind of just chop it up about

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Speaker 1: golf architecture. We discussed a ton of stuff, some on topic,

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Speaker 1: some off topic, but it was a really fun conversation.

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Speaker 1: Our flew by. We'll have to have him back on

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Speaker 1: another time, but before we get to the Blake interview,

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Speaker 1: we are also going to add I think most episodes

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Speaker 1: will do this. We're going to add a Q and

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Speaker 1: a segment at the back. We're fielding questions for this

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Speaker 1: through fridagg Golf Club, who is also, you know, the

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Speaker 1: sponsor of this episode. Friday Golf Club our community, our membership.

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Speaker 1: We have a forum there where we have a kind

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Speaker 1: of a standing post asking for questions, so we'll get

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Speaker 1: it through there. Friday Golf Club's a awesome, you know,

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Speaker 1: community for people that want more from us. We obviously

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Speaker 1: you get early access to our events, but we do

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Speaker 1: heaps of content, mainly golf course architecture content in there

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Speaker 1: as well. There are weekly course profile write ups and

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Speaker 1: then we have a pretty vibrant community in the forums

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Speaker 1: that discuss all things golf. So if you're interested in

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Speaker 1: getting a little bit more from us, supporting us, it's

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Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty dollars a year and you can

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Speaker 1: join at the Frida egg dot com. All right, let's

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Speaker 1: get to Blake Conant. All right, welcoming on for the

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Speaker 1: first time in a really long time with me. At

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Speaker 1: least you talked with Garrett, I think before more recently

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Speaker 1: than me on this feed. Blake Conant one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite people in the golf architecture community, and I'm just

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Speaker 1: happy that you could carve out time around, you know,

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Speaker 1: appointment viewing for you now in January, which you know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't expect to utter these words appointment corn Husker

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Speaker 1: Nebraska Cornhusker basketball.

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Speaker 2: Top five matchup. No, I I appreciate your flexibility. You know,

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Speaker 2: the bandwagon was nearly full when I jumped on, but

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Speaker 2: there was still just a little bit of room left.

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Speaker 2: So so yeah, I'm able to I'm able to follow

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Speaker 2: along here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you got Hoiberg. It's that's fun. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was so he was so good when he was

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Speaker 1: at Iowa State. You know, he figured it might have

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Speaker 1: translate to success in Nebraska. But I find it humorous

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Speaker 1: that now Indiana's a football school and now Nebraska's at

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Speaker 1: basketball school in the Towy Twys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's uh, the parallels are almost

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Speaker 2: a little scary, and it's it's particularly demoralizing knowing that

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Speaker 2: for basketball to be good, the universe says that football

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Speaker 2: must be bad. So so here we are, you know,

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Speaker 2: thirty years since the national championship. Still still plugging away.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure Kai Golbi will appreciate starting starting this chat

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Speaker 2: with a Husker football and Husker basketball mentioned.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's always nice to warm up on something.

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Speaker 1: Some people get frustrated with that, but it's like, you

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Speaker 1: know what, if you go for a run, you warm

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Speaker 1: up before you go for a run. We're warming up

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Speaker 1: before we get into get into the meat and bones

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Speaker 1: of meat and potatoes of this chat.

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Speaker 2: Ied the podcast warm up for for for for the record.

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Speaker 1: Really, yep, why I want?

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Speaker 2: I want to just dive right in or whoever I'm

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Speaker 2: listening to, I want them to dive in. I don't

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Speaker 2: I don't want. I don't need to hear what you

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Speaker 2: had for breakfast. I don't need to hear like how

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Speaker 2: much butter you use? Like no, I'm listening to this

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Speaker 2: podcast to find out about politics or tech or Husker

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Speaker 2: football or whatever.

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Speaker 3: I'm listening to. Like, just just jump right into that.

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Speaker 1: All right. Well, you know I'm gonna start seeking your

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Speaker 1: your golf courses. If you ever have a hole that

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Speaker 1: that starts, that's a gentle handshake. I'm gonna say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: wtf uh? I wanted to dive into the craziest stuff

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Speaker 1: your your first hole better be the craziest stuff every time.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's a good Uh yeah, all right, I'll put

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Speaker 2: my money where my mouth is. See who what was

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Speaker 2: the was it Walt Whitman? It said, you know, do

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Speaker 2: I contradict myself?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Uh something? What's the quote? Something like that? But yes,

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Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, no, I contradict me. I contradict myself

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Speaker 2: a ton, So so I'm sure I'll start every first

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Speaker 2: hole with a gentle handshake.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, old bar Well one of one of

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Speaker 1: the courses in your design profile. Uh, you know you

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Speaker 1: and and Bridesteiner Co. Designed it. The first hole is

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Speaker 1: relatively gentle. I would say it's a short Part five.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I'm curious about with it is

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Speaker 1: the mounding, the fronting mound. So for those that haven't

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Speaker 1: been there, which is probably the vast majority of this podcast,

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Speaker 1: there are like these mounds I've never I've never really

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Speaker 1: seen it on an American golf course before, where you

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Speaker 1: have these two mounds that cut in front and it

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Speaker 1: kind of obscures your view off the first tee. But

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Speaker 1: then there's a little hole, a little like slot in

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Speaker 1: them that you walk through. What was the idea of

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Speaker 1: those mounts? It just curious off the top question since

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Speaker 1: we're talking about first holes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they were, you know, they were a product of

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Speaker 2: like the the scale being so big, of like where

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Speaker 2: do you start? Fair ways? Where do you where do

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Speaker 2: you end? And stop grassing lines sometimes and when it's

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Speaker 2: so wide open sometimes that's hard to do gracefully. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know, we were sort of okay with not

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Speaker 2: being graceful. I think it was it was it was

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Speaker 2: an honest thing to be intentional about what we were

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Speaker 2: doing out there. So part of it was just like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we want burms to be a bit of a theme.

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Speaker 2: Why not do that right on the first t Let

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Speaker 2: this burm be the start of the fairway in a

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Speaker 2: way to start the fairway and then also you know hard,

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Speaker 2: you know, initiate sort of a theme that we're going

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Speaker 2: to have throughout the golf course. And that one's more

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Speaker 2: like aesthetic and provides a glimpse into what you're going

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Speaker 2: to see later on. But a lot of the berms

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Speaker 2: out there are functional as far as like steering storm water.

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Speaker 2: So I'd say fifty percent of them serve a purpose

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Speaker 2: for you know, functionality of storm water or for strategy

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Speaker 2: of golf.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I I kind of liked it. It felt like

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Speaker 1: I was like entering the gates of the golf course

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Speaker 1: in a way symbolically, like you walk through and you're

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Speaker 1: walking through this little hole in the you know, the

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Speaker 1: berm is about as tall as you know, a human being,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little shorter than human.

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Speaker 2: Shorter waist high, yeah, waster belly button.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I think it's a little taller that it could

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Speaker 1: be my it could be my memory. The but you

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Speaker 1: know what about you know, I guess like one of

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Speaker 1: the things that stands out about you got your guys'

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Speaker 1: work there is that we've been in this era of

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Speaker 1: of like naturalism, the idea of making everything kind of

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Speaker 1: blend in. What was the thinking, uh, you know, obviously

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Speaker 1: you just alluded to the the function of the burms

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Speaker 1: with moving storm water, but the use of these berms

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Speaker 1: and the you know, they they look, they appear and

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Speaker 1: are band made and they kind of cut against that.

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Speaker 1: Was that an intentional decision?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Just stylistically, like the variety of styles of stuff we

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Speaker 2: have out there and sort of the not trying to

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Speaker 2: hide what you're doing type of thing that was certainly intentional.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like we had a good site, we

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Speaker 2: didn't have a great site. I think if you were

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Speaker 2: you know, if our site was through sand dunes or

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Speaker 2: something like you know, Childer's Hall or Sandhills or wherever,

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Speaker 2: you might not have made as many of those choices.

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Speaker 2: But for us, you know, that was something where we

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Speaker 2: were like, it was a way to be honest of hey, we're.

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Speaker 3: Going to.

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Speaker 2: We need to make the golf work. We want to

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Speaker 2: try to make the golf strategy cool. There's no excuse

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Speaker 2: not to have a great hole if you've got a

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Speaker 2: blank canvas. So oftentimes we're you know, we're doing a

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Speaker 2: lot of heavy shaping. I wouldn't call it earthwork, and

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Speaker 2: you're and you're moving dirt around you. You're you're cutting

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Speaker 2: two feet here, you're plopping it over there, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of times the goal is to like blend that

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Speaker 2: in and make it look natural. For us, it was, well,

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Speaker 2: let's PLoP it here. It's going to serve a purpose

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Speaker 2: for the golf strategy, but we don't necessarily need to

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Speaker 2: like blend it into nature. So that that was something

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Speaker 2: that we're you know, it was just like we've seen

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Speaker 2: that tons of great golf courses we've been to of

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Speaker 2: you know, the theme is there is no theme, there's

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Speaker 2: no bunker style. And a lot of these great golf

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Speaker 2: courses like places Brian and I love so much, like

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Speaker 2: National Golf Links or Garden City or you know, even

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Speaker 2: old photos of pine valleys, so that kind of gives

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Speaker 2: you permission to It's like, well, if they can do it,

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Speaker 2: why can't we do it?

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Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, Somewhere somewhere it got lost that like

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Speaker 1: bunkers are are hazards, and you know, I think it

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Speaker 1: probably came with the you know, technical precision that that

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Speaker 1: modern machinery gave people that you could have that like

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Speaker 1: that succinct style of bunker throughout a golf course, or

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Speaker 1: you know, sometimes what the sites gave them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's you know, That's what's kind of interesting,

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Speaker 2: is like there's this intention to have like a sight

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Speaker 2: wide prescription of we want all flash bunkers or grass

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Speaker 2: face bunkers, and what you find out is like within

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Speaker 2: each site there's little micro sites where hey, a flashbunker

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Speaker 2: doesn't work here, Like this is way better off being

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Speaker 2: something that's grass spaced, because we're really fighting surface drainage,

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Speaker 2: and we'd have to do a ton of work to

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Speaker 2: steer the water away from it for it to be

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Speaker 2: flash faced, or hey, a bunker doesn't even belong here.

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Speaker 2: We can achieve the same thing with mounds. It's way

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Speaker 2: less expensive. It actually tends to challenge the better player

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Speaker 2: more if you've got something in place of sand. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's like you guys who are really good, don't like

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Speaker 2: hitting out of awkward stances, out of rough You want

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Speaker 2: to be able to control your ball, control the flight

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Speaker 2: of it. And that's the thing where it's like hitting

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Speaker 2: a shot out of off for a fifteen handicap sometimes

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Speaker 2: is welcome, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, yeah, absolutely, I you know, it's like one of

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Speaker 1: the things you grow up. When you grow up caddying,

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Speaker 1: you realize is like sometimes having like a little bit

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Speaker 1: of grass in the ball sitting up is a good

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Speaker 1: thing for a lot of golfers. And the since we talked,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a number of years have passed, but

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Speaker 1: you've gone from where I think you're you know, you're

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Speaker 1: still in this process of becoming like a full blown

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Speaker 1: solo architect, but you've gone from a shaper to where

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Speaker 1: you have a substantial amount of your own work. What's

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Speaker 1: what's the transition been?

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Speaker 3: Like pretty easy because it's just.

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Speaker 2: You know, there isn't a lot of like cold calling

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Speaker 2: or me like trying to level jump. A lot of

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that's come my way is just

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Speaker 2: come my way organically, and it's not forced, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a product of just like finding,

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Speaker 2: you know, finding the part of this profession that makes

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Speaker 2: you happy and wanting to do that and like steering

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Speaker 2: yourself towards that a little bit. So for me, that's

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Speaker 2: that's the creative side of it. It's like it's the

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Speaker 2: planning of a golf course, of a new golf course,

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Speaker 2: or master planning for what you're going to do for

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Speaker 2: renovation or restoration, and then like executing the work, like

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Speaker 2: getting in the dirt and building the features. So for me,

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Speaker 2: it's in an industry that is very dependent on what,

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Speaker 2: like the economy is doing, it's good to kind of

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Speaker 2: have that that that baseline of like Okay, no matter

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Speaker 2: if the economy is you know, up here or down here,

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Speaker 2: if I enjoy doing these things, I should always be

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Speaker 2: able to find a way to do them when the

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Speaker 2: economy is going goods. Maybe that means I'm like getting

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Speaker 2: solo design work on my own, and if things are slow,

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Speaker 2: maybe that means renovation work or I'm helping Tom with something,

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Speaker 2: you know, dope with something either shaping for him or

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Speaker 2: running a job. And so that's sort of like I'm

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Speaker 2: in that transition now of I'd be happy to live

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Speaker 2: in that you know, quote unquote purgatory forever because I'm

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Speaker 2: just I'm happy doing what I'm doing because I have

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to build cool golf and the credit is

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Speaker 2: like a secondary thing. But you know, I've always said like,

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Speaker 2: as long as Tom keeps working and keeps wanting to

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Speaker 2: have me around, like I'm willing to keep learning from

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Speaker 2: him and keep working with him. It's a the people

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Speaker 2: he surrounds himself with are really cool and he's, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of two guys getting the best projects the world.

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Speaker 2: So it's just an opportunity to to build golf and

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Speaker 2: learn from him at a really high level. So right now,

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Speaker 2: it's just like purgatory is a very negative way to

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Speaker 2: put it, but yeah, it's this like transitional phase where

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Speaker 2: I'm getting to do stuff with Brian, I'm getting to

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Speaker 2: do stuff on my own, I'm getting to do stuff

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Speaker 2: with Tom, and it's all really fun because I'm just

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Speaker 2: working with cool people.

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Speaker 1: Uh. PJ would say that, you know, you know Ball,

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Speaker 1: knowing Ball and working closely with Tom. What what's something

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Speaker 1: about him and his work that kind of blows you

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Speaker 1: away that maybe isn't recognizable to the regular golfer.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, I think one of the cool things

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Speaker 2: about uh, you know, Tom's known for his routings and

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Speaker 2: his greens, and I don't think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: can comprehend like how those come together, you know, but

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Speaker 2: he's he's given glimpses through his books or through some

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Speaker 2: of the podcasts that you guys do about his process

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Speaker 2: for both.

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Speaker 3: One of the cool things of like.

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Speaker 2: Building a green with Tom is is the way he

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Speaker 2: views it and edits it, which he'll go, you know

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Speaker 2: a lot of us when we get on a green,

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Speaker 2: we're looking at like the internal contours and what the

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Speaker 2: green is doing. Tom will walk the perimeter and like

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Speaker 2: look at all the recovery shots and he's trying to

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Speaker 2: diagnose like is it impossible from over here? Am I

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Speaker 2: okay with that? Like if I miss here, what shots

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Speaker 2: do I have to these pins? And so so his

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Speaker 2: editing sort of like takes place through through that process,

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Speaker 2: especially when building greens. And you know, the first time

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Speaker 2: I saw it, saw him do it, and then working

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Speaker 2: with him and doing it, it was just like, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a really eye opening way to build because then

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Speaker 2: you you just sort of like you broaden the scope

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Speaker 2: of what you're looking at and you start to you know,

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Speaker 2: Clyde Johnson, my good friend who's over in the UK,

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Speaker 2: talks a lot about like the thirty yards in front

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Speaker 2: of the green, like that should be the most captivating

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Speaker 2: part of the golf course or as captivating as the green,

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Speaker 2: And when you're building, agree with Tom, you start to realize,

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Speaker 2: like the surrounds and the recovery shots are what makes

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Speaker 2: it so interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like I think a term in

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Speaker 1: golf architecture that people, you know, maybe a novice wouldn't

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Speaker 1: really understand is like when you talk about the green complex,

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Speaker 1: it should extend probably twenty yards around it, right, would

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Speaker 1: you agree with that, Like would you consider things that

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Speaker 1: you're building in front of the green as part of

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Speaker 1: the overarching green complex?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Totally.

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Speaker 2: I mean we're thinking about when we say we're shaping

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Speaker 2: a green, like you're you're doing all of that and

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Speaker 2: typically you're you're shaping the tie ins to the next

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Speaker 2: tee or you're even shaping the next tee too, because

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Speaker 2: all that sort of blends together is one green complex.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, whether.

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Speaker 2: It's twenty yards out or you know, I typically think

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Speaker 2: of like wherever your grassing line is going to be.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes that's nine paces out, or you know, a head

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Speaker 2: that's on the green that throws out can throw seventy

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Speaker 2: five feet, so that'd be twenty five yards out from

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Speaker 2: the green sometimes that you've got to shape. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: all that, all that goes into it. It's a it's

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Speaker 2: a big job to build to you know, to have

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Speaker 2: a completed green complex.

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Speaker 1: When you're when you're working on these projects and you

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Speaker 1: know to this, you you just completed a renovation project

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Speaker 1: on your own, so you can you can speak to

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Speaker 1: this now sure Haven versus you know, working with Tom

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Speaker 1: uh You know, when you're working with Tom, you are

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Speaker 1: are together with a number of associates that are building greens.

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Speaker 1: Or at Old Barnwell you and Brian Schneider are both

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Speaker 1: building greens. What's the different dynamic when you're working by

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Speaker 1: yourself versus when you're working collectively with a group, and

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Speaker 1: what you know are the things that you like or

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Speaker 1: maybe don't like about either.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, working with Tom, one of the things

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Speaker 2: that I picked on picked up on quickly is he's

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Speaker 2: willing to hear ideas from everybody and filter them accordingly.

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Speaker 2: So when I was an intern at Dismal River, we

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Speaker 2: you know, one of his something he wanted to do

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Speaker 2: is drive around with every intern and spend a day

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Speaker 2: with them, and so he was constantly he was like

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Speaker 2: picking my brain for things that I would do, and

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Speaker 2: most of them were flushed down the toilet. But that

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Speaker 2: was always that was a good reminder of like, yeah, man,

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Speaker 2: like a good idea can come from anywhere, So the

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Speaker 2: process of building a green or the process of doing

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Speaker 2: the work doesn't really change. And then that's something that like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: the roles are reversed. But I had shaping help up

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Speaker 2: there from two younger guys who have worked with Doglott

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Speaker 2: and Brian Scheider, Andre Buchco and Great Carlton, and you know,

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Speaker 2: asking what they would do, or you know, trying to

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Speaker 2: get input from them of what we should do, or

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of it's me saying like, Hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to do this over here, and sometimes I

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Speaker 2: have a really clear picture in my head and sometimes

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Speaker 2: I don't. And you know, that's that's the fun of

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Speaker 2: building golf, whether you're the one whose stuff is being

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Speaker 2: edited or you're the editor. You know, having that process

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Speaker 2: in place of like a good idea can come from

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Speaker 2: anywhere is important. So as far as me building greens,

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Speaker 2: it's like sometimes when you're a Tom, you're willing to

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Speaker 2: like take a chance. It's because he's a safety net,

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Speaker 2: so you can build something wacky and he can come

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Speaker 2: around and just be like, yeah, that's stupid. You know,

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Speaker 2: when you're doing yourself, you kind of got to be

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Speaker 2: your own safety net, or you've got to like you've

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Speaker 2: got to be editing in the back of your head too,

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Speaker 2: or just realizing like yeah, you know, sometimes it's like

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Speaker 2: what would Tom say about this, Well, I'd probably say

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Speaker 2: lower at six inches, and it's you know, the golf's

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Speaker 2: going to be the same, it's just going to be

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Speaker 2: that much more accommodating for the higher handicapper. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: sometimes his voice is in the back of my head,

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Speaker 2: or Schneider's voice in the back of my head, or Iverson,

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's nice. You know, it's nice being able

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Speaker 2: to like, yeah, be the person. Then who's you know,

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Speaker 2: providing mentorship or tutelage to other young guys.

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Speaker 1: In your career? You know, you you're still young by

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Speaker 1: you know, golf architecture standards. You're you're very young. You know,

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Speaker 1: are there architectural ideas that you've grown less interested in

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Speaker 1: as you've gained experience, like you know, kind of take

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Speaker 1: us on your journey as as an architect who thinks

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Speaker 1: about this all the time. Are there things that you've

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Speaker 1: drawn less interested in and likewise more interested in?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this will probably ruffle your feathers. But I

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Speaker 2: I used to love Langford and think he was like

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Speaker 2: the best architect in the world, and I he's the

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Speaker 2: more Langford stuff I see in the older I get,

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Speaker 2: it's like the less I appreciate it. I shouldn't say

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Speaker 2: less I appreciate it, but more I'm like coming back

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Speaker 2: down to earth, you know, like that Sonya is not

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Speaker 2: a nine, you know what I mean? Where I originally

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Speaker 2: thought it was.

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Speaker 1: So that and I think what about it has you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of like as you've seen more what about the

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Speaker 1: Langford work? In particular, you have have you just cooled

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Speaker 1: on Not that I don't. It's not that you hate Langford,

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Speaker 1: you just aren't as high on him.

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Speaker 2: No, And a lot of it is just the raised

399
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Speaker 2: green pads. I think the shapes are really cool. I

400
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Speaker 2: think some of the strategy that he was evoking was

401
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Speaker 2: really it was like really provocative, and it was harkening

402
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Speaker 2: back to some of the stuff that see bing McDonald

403
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Speaker 2: was doing, but he was doing it with his own

404
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Speaker 2: little flavor, and so I think like the bunker strategy

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Speaker 2: and the style that he did it was really cool.

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Speaker 2: But but a product of how he of his process

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Speaker 2: and of his technique is just like a ton of

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Speaker 2: raised greens that are only received through an aerial shot

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Speaker 2: swich is kind of cool because in a way I

410
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Speaker 2: can like I can put that into my brain and say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: what like what if Langford built a punch bowl or

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Speaker 2: if length you know, it's like, how would Langford have

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Speaker 2: built a punch bowl? And then you could just like

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Speaker 2: I'm going to try to build a Langford punch bowl,

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Speaker 2: you know, where I'm gonna try.

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Speaker 1: To raise up frau that a big ball.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, or just yeah, So there's there's things like

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Speaker 2: that that you you know, as you refine your taste

419
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Speaker 2: and see more golf, you just start to it's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like it's like placing stuff in order.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's like, if what I had seen twenty golf courses,

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Speaker 2: Lasonia might have been number two, But now that I've

424
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Speaker 2: seen you know, four or five hundred golf courses like Lasonium,

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Speaker 2: it's not number two anymore. So though, you know, it's

426
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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff that's like it's, uh, it's it's

427
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Speaker 2: fun to pick on him a little bit because I

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Speaker 2: know you guys are such Langford lovers, but I mean.

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Speaker 1: As similar a boat as you.

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Speaker 4: Like.

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Speaker 1: You know, law Sonia was a course I played as

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Speaker 1: a kid, and I was like, this is the most

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Speaker 1: one of the most amazing courses I've ever played in

434
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: my life. And you know, I think for given public

435
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: golf in America like los Sonia, for the price they

436
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: charge and the quality of product, has got to be

437
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: a top ten facility if you combine price and product. Yeah,

438
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: it just you know, part of golf is you know,

439
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: it just you know, there's a lot of other places

440
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: that are really cool. What I find fascinating about it

441
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: is like, you know, there was the Perry Maxwell. I

442
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 1: think there was a Perry Maxwell Langford beef. You know

443
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: Maxwell who you know he had basically the complete polar

444
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: opposite style of Langford. For those that don't know who

445
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: we're talking about, is like, you know, William Blankford and

446
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: Theodore Moreau built really like manufactured, big feature stuff, as

447
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: Blake hinted at, like everything kind of goes up versus

448
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: Perry Maxwell was like extremely economical and I would say

449
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: pretty pretty naturalist type of off architecture where you know,

450
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: he's he's trying to move as little earth as he

451
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: can and if he's doing that, he's trying to blend

452
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: it into nature. But they you know, there was a

453
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: lot of There was some Perry Maxwell writing about like

454
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: how you know those that use steam shovels are just

455
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: you know, don't don't have skill effectively, is what he

456
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: was saying. And if you think about it, they were

457
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: working in the same area at the same time and

458
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: oftentimes renovating each other's courses.

459
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, I will a hot take on Perry Maxwell

460
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 2: is I don't I can't think of a course he

461
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 2: worked on that he's well known for where Dean Woods

462
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: was not his shaper. Dean Woods helped build Dornic Hills

463
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 2: and he was the point man at Crystal Downs. And yeah,

464
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: if you start to like pull that thread a little bit,

465
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 2: you'll realize, like Dean Woods was everywhere that Perry Maxwell

466
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: is most well known for. So it's one of those

467
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: things to lining. It's like, you know, everybody wants to

468
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: like glorify the shaper and you know, make a big

469
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: name out of that person who's like, oh, it's like,

470
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: well who Tom who shape your greens? You know, it's

471
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: like but you start to, yeah, you start to look

472
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: into Perry Maxwell a little bit, and it's like, yeah,

473
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 2: maybe Dean Woods deserves a little bit of credit. You know,

474
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: maybe he's like seems like he was like the Eric

475
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 2: iverson to Perry Maxwell.

476
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: You know.

477
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting part with like Langford and Moreau,

478
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: Like if you go play William Blakeford course that Moreau

479
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: wasn't involved with, you're kind of like, uh whatever, And

480
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: and I think it probably is underrepresented. And I mean

481
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: I know that there's a lot of that with with

482
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 1: Donald Ross too. It was depending on the shaper, you know,

483
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: the or the construction Foreman effectively. I think a lot

484
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: of times it was referred to, you know, the golf

485
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: courses like you know greatly, you know, even stylistically can

486
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: change from from course of course.

487
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean we could. We could go

488
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 2: down a rabbit hole too. Of Like you know, Mackenzie's

489
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: six weeks in Australia, it's like, god, he just like

490
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: you walk into Markham right, like if he if he's

491
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 2: a dud, then what what becomes of all this stuff?

492
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: You know?

493
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: That's I mean, same thing with Hunter and Maxwell to

494
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: a certain extent. I was just reading a thing that

495
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: Josh Pennitt posted this week about like how Mackenzie came

496
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: back to look at the Metal Club and he was

497
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: really thrilled with Hunter's work. And it's like he left

498
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: and he would just he would just come back and

499
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: the course would be done and he would like you know,

500
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: you think about like that's the way certain sub architects

501
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: work today. You know, there's an infamous story of Nick

502
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: Faldo gant gloss on opening day at one of his

503
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: golf courses, driving to the golf course because you know

504
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: he had been there. But that is the way some

505
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: people people still work where it's like, hey, here are

506
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: your plans, go build it. But the era we've gotten in,

507
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: you know, is much more of a craftsmanship, you know,

508
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: era of golf design, where you know, the the InVogue

509
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: popular golf architects are the ones that are either doing

510
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: the work or or pretty attuned to the work and

511
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: the people that are doing the work.

512
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. And it's something that's like it's

513
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: been said for well before this era, but it's it's

514
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 2: just really hard to draw plans for every golfer and

515
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: every detail of every golful and just like nail it

516
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: on the first try, you know. And and the guys

517
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: who are design bid you know, just they draw plans.

518
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: They know that they spend a lot of time like

519
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: visiting site and editing stuff. But you know a lot

520
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: of times when that's the process, it's like, oh, make

521
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 2: these edits and I'll be back in five days. And

522
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: then it's like you're either there's either like a latency

523
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: with that or you're kind of twiddling your thumbs just

524
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: like waiting around, or you're you're going and working on

525
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: other stuff. And so it's like it's nice to be

526
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: able to a like be building the stuff, be there

527
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: every day, but also like not have that lost in

528
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: translation moment or the like playing the telephone game trying

529
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: to relay an idea through four different people. So it's

530
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: I think there's there's an efficiency that you see when

531
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: it's like a design build product project that the clients

532
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: maybe really like if they're just like if they're touring

533
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: through and you know, Gil hands on a dozer building

534
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: a green and there's like three excavators around him, It's like, man,

535
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,719
Speaker 2: it's fuck, Like work's happening, Like this is awesome, Like

536
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: I'm getting my money's worth here, you know. So I

537
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: think it's got that appeal more than anything I've.

538
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: I think that there's just a power of interests aligning

539
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: as well in the design build, where like you're you're

540
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: more I think you can run into issues, and I

541
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: think there are like great contractors and they're mediocre contractors

542
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: and bad contractors, like any any industry. But one of

543
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 1: the things that you know, architects and that you know

544
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: you've obviously worked mostly in the design build, you know,

545
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: set up, but one of the things is like the

546
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: architects if they're contracting the shapers, you know, and working

547
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: with the shapers regularly they are going to be aligned

548
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: on the product, and the architect aligns with the club

549
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: or course that they're building. Where it gets tricky is like,

550
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: you know, and this is just you have to use

551
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: contractors for stuff, regardless of you know, like you're building

552
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: golf course, you're going to use some contractors. But the

553
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 1: contractors are just trying to get the thing done for

554
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: the most part, and they aren't as invested in the

555
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: architecture or the finished product as they are their budget timeline.

556
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: And I know I'm generalizing. I don't want any contractors

557
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: to get after me. I'm like I said, there are

558
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: good ones, at bad ones and mediocre ones, but like,

559
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: just in general, inherently a contractor enters a different set

560
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: of kind of goals and variables to a project.

561
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, and no, I generally agree with you. So

562
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: I'm not going to you know, I'm not going to

563
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: like rebut what you're saying. But also I do think

564
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: there's this bottom line of like everybody answers to the client,

565
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: and then whoever is representing the client on site every

566
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: day kind of like has the final say. So a

567
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: lot of it, a lot of the decision making is

568
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: driven from the top down. Like if the client has

569
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: you know, empowered Brian and me with agency and autonomy

570
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: to do what we please and just make the best

571
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: golf course we can, then whether the contractor is good, bad,

572
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: or indifferent, it's they're they're going to fall online because

573
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: it's like, well, either like that that's the mandate coming

574
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 2: from the top and if I charge more like the

575
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: client is okay with that because it's all on an

576
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: effort to make the golf course good. So I think

577
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: they're you know, I've been lucky to to not be

578
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: on a lot of like horrible projects where it's just

579
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: gone haywire. So maybe my perspective is like a little

580
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: bit of rainbows at sunshine and I need to Yeah,

581
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: I need to get in the real world a little.

582
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: Bit, or you you guys, get outside your bubble.

583
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: You should have been.

584
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: Able to back in ninety six when there, you know,

585
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, I didn't. I don't have that perspective.

586
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: But you know, for the most part, it's like even

587
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: going back to like twenty thirteen when I that was

588
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: like the first renovation restoration Jabozon with Brian at Medina

589
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: and just you know, contractors of that era and then

590
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: even like ten years later, like they've gotten a lot better.

591
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 2: And I think there was some pushback because back then

592
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 2: it was still like shaping was still a thing that

593
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: they did and budgeted for, and so when you took

594
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 2: that out of their nut, that was like that was

595
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: maybe that's where a lot of their margins were coming from,

596
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: and they didn't know what It's like, well, shit, now

597
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: we have to build our margins in you know, drain pipeer, gravel,

598
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is. And it's like so I

599
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 2: think there was always some animosity and friction when when

600
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: that was the case. And I think contractors are just

601
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 2: like a lot of them now like working in the

602
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: design build way because you know, they're it's not a hobby.

603
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: They still need to make money, right, It's like they're

604
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 2: not they're not doing it for the love of putting

605
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 2: in drain pipes. So everybody understands it, like they need

606
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 2: to make money. But they've figured out their business model

607
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: just just through time and through trial and error, Like, Okay,

608
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: what's the best way to work with design build guys.

609
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: It's like, well, a lot of us are just prima

610
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: donnas who want what we want and like we don't

611
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 2: want to grease the machine or fuel it up. And

612
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: it's like they're just cool doing that because it's a

613
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: little line item that they can build for and like

614
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: everything's great and copesthetic on site and it's like, yeah,

615
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: whatever you need. So so I think a lot of

616
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 2: them have gotten like there's a ton of really good

617
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: contractors out there. And I will say just to you know,

618
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,439
Speaker 2: like I know Trip Davis has He's got his own

619
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 2: shaper who travels around with him and builds all this stuff.

620
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: I think Andy Stables had uses his own shapers.

621
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: So even like like er Green and works with McDonald's

622
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: sons everywhere.

623
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think even these guys who maybe work

624
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: a little bit different than Doak or the way we

625
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: work where we want to shape everything, it's like they

626
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: still exercise their control over like, hey that I want

627
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 2: my guy building the greens because we have a language

628
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 2: that we speak that makes communication easier. May you know,

629
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: it's going to be more efficient. He knows what I like.

630
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 2: So I think I think a lot of those guys

631
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: do have people like that they travel around with and

632
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: they work with.

633
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: Uh. In that answer, you know, you hit on a

634
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: subject I wasn't planning to get to I didn't realize

635
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: that you were a part of the Madida one project.

636
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: That that is. I think it's the most underrated course

637
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: in Chicago.

638
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: It's the most underrated factory and camel in Chicago. And

639
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 2: yours truly built the bunker.

640
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, you build the camel bunker.

641
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I rough shaped it in and my man Raffulio

642
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 2: finished up Brian. Brian might give her a Fulio a

643
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: little more credit than than than me, but yeah, and then.

644
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 3: Uh, we had a dinner.

645
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: They put on a dinner when Tom was in town,

646
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: and they you know, I was lucky enough to get

647
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: an invite. It was like it must have been like

648
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: the Greens Committee or something. But I sat next to

649
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: a gentleman who explained to me the difference between a

650
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 2: Dromedary and a Bactrian camel and why they chose to

651
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: have a bactory and camel for uh, for the for

652
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 2: the camel at Madonna number one and Dramedary is one

653
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: hump bactory and is two hump. You can remember that

654
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: because Bactriyan is a sideways b Laying down.

655
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: This sounds like information that's gonna be really valuable when

656
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: your kid asked you about camels. Yeah, and maybe not

657
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: this podcast.

658
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, no, this is very useful information anyway.

659
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 1: I will say obligatory take a picture of the camel

660
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: bucker every time up there.

661
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: Yes, no, so that that project. I finished grad school.

662
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: I had jury the after graduating, and then so my

663
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: last thing I did in Athens, Georgia was jury duty,

664
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: and then I drove up to Medina and helped finish

665
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: up there. Mike mccarton had done a lot of like

666
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: the work under Brian who was running the job, so

667
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: there were only a few bunkers left to build, and

668
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 2: then it was just like finishing greens and doing finished

669
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: work and stuff.

670
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: All right, I've got a couple, you know, just kind

671
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: of general golf golf architecture questions for you. What's the

672
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: golf locale that you think in all of your travels

673
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: you alluded to seeing four or five hundred courses. What's

674
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: the golf locale that every golfer should go to in

675
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: their lives if you had to pick one, I.

676
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: Had to pick one. I mean, I guess it goes

677
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: without saying like the UK, like you just go to

678
00:38:58,840 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 2: see St.

679
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 3: Andrews. It's like everybody should go do that.

680
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: So maybe take that off the board because that's kind

681
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: of like that's that's sort of like everybody's pick.

682
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: I feel like that is the answer. And what people

683
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: need to realize is you can just go and you

684
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: could go and sit there, enter the ballot every day

685
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: and if you don't win, you play on an old

686
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: Tom course, the new course or the course, the Harry

687
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: Colt course, Like just do that.

688
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

689
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if there's like this hesitancy

690
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: to like to rent a car or to just be

691
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: just be free over there. But it's like you can

692
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: got like you just go rent a car and you

693
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: could like you can just have your own wheels and

694
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: drive around. And we're so used to driving far in

695
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: the United States, like you're like the road warrior when

696
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: you drive your own car over in the UK. Like

697
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 2: I remember, I played Press in the morning and then

698
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: I drove to cruden Bay and I played cruden Bay

699
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: in the afternoon, and then I drove back down to

700
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 2: Saint Andrews and I was I was talking to somebody

701
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 2: at the pub and they were like what the like,

702
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: are you fucking kidding me? Like you did all that?

703
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: And I was like it's like four hours in the car,

704
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: Like this is nothing, so you can you can get

705
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: to a ton of places when you're over there, you know.

706
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 3: The the other I haven't.

707
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: I haven't had a chance to like see golf around Paris,

708
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: but I really want to. The trip around London or

709
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: the Australian sand Belt would be my other two. Like

710
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: there's just so much golf in a dense area that

711
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 2: it's worth seeing.

712
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Melbourne's like and it's gonna you know, so many

713
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: people have invited me down for various things and it's

714
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: not it's not the invite that's it's just me getting

715
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: and leaving for you know, ten days is kind of

716
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: holding me back. But like, to me, the Melbourne one

717
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: sticks out as probably the one that I most want

718
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: to do along with like New Zealand's the other one.

719
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: For me. Melbourne there's something about like being in a

720
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: world renowned city and it being so close to all

721
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,479
Speaker 1: this world class golf, Like the combination of like, yeah,

722
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: and you can go do nice stuff at night. You know,

723
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: you're not just that that's something that you know, on

724
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: its face appeals to me.

725
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I am out of I am not doing

726
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: like ten day golf trips where you're fitting in thirty

727
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 2: six holes a day, Like I'm I'm over it, I'm

728
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: done with it. It's it's done. I would be much

729
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 2: happier doing a ten day trip where I see seven

730
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 2: golf courses that are great and then have some time

731
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 2: to like, yeah, go experience the culture.

732
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 3: You know.

733
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: It's like take takes some time to just have a

734
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 2: really nice, drawn out dinner, just like walk around the

735
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: city a little bit, like yeah, I don't need to.

736
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 3: I don't need to bust.

737
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: My hump for you know, a week straight and then

738
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 2: just like be sore for two weeks afterwards.

739
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: This is You've just explained why I keep balking on

740
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: Australia or New Zealand. As I continued, like every time

741
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: I think about it, I add another week to the

742
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: trip because it's mostly non golf stuff that I want

743
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: to do in the area. But yeah, I think those

744
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: are great answers, and it's I'm kind of with you

745
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: with the packing the golf in I did a trip

746
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: to Saint Andrews last year and we just had one

747
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: round of golf every day, but I had the mornings

748
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: free because we did it so people could win the

749
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: ballot and play the old course. But like having my

750
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: boardings free, it was like a delight. It was like, oh,

751
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,439
Speaker 1: I went out and played golf in the afternoon, came

752
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: back for dinner, and my boarding was wide open. And

753
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: it allowed me so much optionality into terms of what

754
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to do. I could go play golf if

755
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to. All right, we're gonna try this, uh,

756
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: this rapid fire segment. This is a new thing that

757
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: we're gonna try on architecture pods. Here. I got to

758
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: give you a place or a person or a you know,

759
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: and you tell me the first thing that comes to

760
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: your mind when I say this, let's start with Riviera.

761
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: Oh that's it. That's the that's the way you're doing this. Yeah,

762
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: let's start with Riviera. It makes me think of KURBYR. Enthusiasm.

763
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Black Swan episode, Yes.

764
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: Yes, Disgruntled, Yeah, all all the times that Riviera. You know,

765
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: it's like, well, it's not Riviera, but it's Riviera. People

766
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 2: who know know that it's Riviera's Larry David's club. It's like,

767
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: so every time golf is introduced in KIRBYR. Enthusiasm, and

768
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 2: I think of Riviera, And then I think of Michael Yamachi,

769
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: who that character is based on. And I played golf

770
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: with Michael Yamachi at Dos Renaissance Cups, and he's like

771
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: the nicest guy in the world, and he loves talking

772
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 2: golf architecture, and so it's just this funny little like yeah,

773
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:19,720
Speaker 2: six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

774
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's go Alistair Mackenzie.

775
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, probably somehow underrated. Yeah go on, yeah, I

776
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: just yeah, I I you start to like look at

777
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: the list of stuff that he's done and then he's

778
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: worked on, and you're just like, man, that's that guy

779
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: had a good run there in like a short period

780
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 2: of time, Like you think of you think of these

781
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: like these great runs throughout history that people have been on,

782
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: you know what it crosses, you know, sports or architecture

783
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 2: or any field whatsoever. It's just like that's pretty good.

784
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: I you know, it's I don't think like, I don't

785
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: think most people would say like La Hinch is the

786
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: best course in the UK or the UK or in Ireland,

787
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: you know, but it's like definitely of like a top tier,

788
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's very high on people's bucket. Lists,

789
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying it's the best, but like you know,

790
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: if somebody told you in all of Ireland in the UK,

791
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: La Hinch is my favorite place, you wouldn't be like

792
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: that's crazy, get out of here, you know. And you

793
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: to think like he conceivably did that over four continent

794
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: with you could make a case for a couple of

795
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: courses in America, South America and then Australia. It's mind blowing.

796
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 3: Yeah.

797
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: It's like when you talk about Tiger Woods, you know,

798
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 2: and people are like, okay, if you only take what

799
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 2: he did at the US Open, like that's the eighth

800
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: best career of anybody, you know, whatever it is. It's like,

801
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 2: oh yeah, he had all that work in the UK

802
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: in Australia. You know. It's like mackenzie's work in the

803
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: US is like unbelievable in itself. It's you know, I've

804
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: seen hardly anything of his in the UK, and I'm

805
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: so eager to because you know, my friend Clyde who

806
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: consulted a lot of these clubs in the UK that

807
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 2: are McKenzie courses and consults a Titterangi down in New Zealand.

808
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: It's like all these places look incredible, and it's just

809
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 2: it's like, man, it's just like banger after Bank, you know,

810
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: like they're they're U. Yeah, there's so much great stuff

811
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 2: that he did, but even the stuff that he isn't

812
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: well known for should be better known.

813
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: So I should put published at some point my list

814
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: of like the places that I haven't gotten to that

815
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: are like kind of obscure that I really want to

816
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: get to. Near the top of it is that Cavendish place.

817
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: I think I pronounced it correct. It's like the fifty

818
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: four hundred yard Alisair McKenzie course in England, and it

819
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: looks delightful, like I dream about playing there. I don't

820
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: know what I'm ever going to get there.

821
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: But right, you know, yeah, I mean that would be

822
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: a fun trip to do, just like all right, I

823
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,919
Speaker 2: want to see the mackenzie UK stuff and I'm sure

824
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: it would blow me away.

825
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: I wanted to do that. I talked to a friend

826
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: of mine, you know, kind of runs our concierge. I

827
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: was like, hey, can we do like an Alistair McKenzie

828
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: UK trip? And he's like, Andy, that is so illogical

829
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: and you end up driving by so many great courses

830
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: to do this that it's a terrible idea, and I'm like, no,

831
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: but I think it would be cool, right, Like, oh,

832
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: I just I went I'd only played Alistair McKenzie courses

833
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: for a week.

834
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: There. Certainly there's enough sickos in your community that you

835
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: could get like eight people or twelve people, you know,

836
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: whatever you need to make it work. Like they'd be

837
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 2: willing to pass by all these great places in an

838
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 2: effort to do this thing.

839
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: Right, I think like I kind of side with of

840
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: those like if you're there, I always like because it's

841
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: like the idea of like, you know, how many people

842
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: went to NCR in the seventies and eighties when it

843
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: was ranked as like one of the greatest courses in

844
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: you know, in the country, and right next door was

845
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: Moraine and nobody went to Moraine, you know.

846
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 3: Yep.

847
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was kind of flipped, which is which

848
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 1: is fascinating, all right. Next up Pine Hills.

849
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: Pine Hills loved it. Second best golf course in Wisconsin.

850
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: What's the best course in Wisconsin? Yeah, yeah, I think that's.

851
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: It's really good. I know people hate on it. No,

852
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 2: it's the Pine Hills question. Yeah, Harry Smead, I was

853
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 2: really impressed and a lot of the work that they've undertaken,

854
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: especially like you can tell that the tree work is

855
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: really good and there's still more to do, but it's like,

856
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 2: you know, you have to chip away at trees. Trees

857
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: aren't a thing that just like happen overnight. But you know,

858
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 2: for any golf course, if you get the trees in

859
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: the grassing lines right, like you're eighty percent of the

860
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 2: way there, you know, it's it's it's the detailed stuff

861
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: that everybody wants to spend a ton of money on.

862
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: That's the last like fifteen to twenty percent. It's like, no,

863
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 2: it's spend a little bit of money and get the

864
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 2: eighty percent right. I think Pine Hill has done a

865
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 2: really good job of that.

866
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: I I think that's like one of the worst things

867
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: going on in the industry right now is like two

868
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 1: may places aren't content enough with being eighty percent, which

869
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: like the amount of money you have to spend to

870
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 1: get to ninety five is insane, and the vast majority

871
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: of golfers don't even know. And the cost, the cost

872
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: gets passed on to everybody.

873
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, how and how you know? Have you

874
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: seen that there's a video of the professor who's filling

875
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: up the big jug. And he starts with the biggest

876
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 2: thing first, you know, it starts with like pingpong balls,

877
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: and it's like is the jug full? In the classroom

878
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 2: says yes, and then he puts in like marbles, you know,

879
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: and they fill up the void between the ping pong balls.

880
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 2: It's like, well, is it full now? And everybody says yes,

881
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 2: and he keeps feeling it with smaller and smaller things,

882
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 2: and it's like, you know, it's like the point is

883
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 2: start with the base of the most important things, and

884
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 2: then as you solidify that, work on the stuff that

885
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: is more and more detail or less important. And so

886
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 2: often it's like people have the they've got the pyramid

887
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: turned upside down.

888
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 3: You know.

889
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, we need we need new bunkers, the

890
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 2: new bunkers sand and you know, we need new grass here.

891
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: And it's like you need new grass because you've got

892
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 2: like ten trees over there that are casting shade on

893
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 2: the green. It's like, so you're just gonna regrass it

894
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 2: every year until you cut those trees down. It's like,

895
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 2: just cut the fucking trees down, and you could spend

896
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 2: a tenth of what you know, you could spend ten

897
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: cents on the dollar to what you're spending. But you know,

898
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 2: the average club member doesn't want that. They want like

899
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 2: flat tea boxes, and they want fresh sand and good sand,

900
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 2: and they want fast greens. And so that's where a

901
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: club is going to spend their money.

902
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 4: Consistent bunkers, consistent bunkers, consistent Yeah, fast greens, and yeah,

903
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 4: god forbid, a tea box is like a two percent,

904
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 4: you know, instead of like the point seventy five percent

905
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 4: the laser level.

906
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's you know, I think about it as

907
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: a kid, like I grew up like like such slanted

908
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: tea boxes, you know, because it's actually like that era design.

909
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: They get built up and then the drought kind of

910
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: settles and they settle like this, and you know that

911
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: was a great, you know, skill development moment for you.

912
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you're on the fifteen. It's like, well,

913
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 1: this is a hook, lie, so I got to choke

914
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: up on the club and aim a little right to

915
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: hit the fairway here all right, next to the rapid fire.

916
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: Charles alson boring.

917
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: No, he's you know, he's just like, yeah, there's a

918
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 2: lot of stuff that there's a lot of stuff of his.

919
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: It's like it's well routed, it's really good work, but

920
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:41,720
Speaker 2: it's just like, oh, it's a lot of it's the same,

921
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: and a lot of it's just big broad slopes. You know,

922
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 2: we're uh, yeah, yeah, it's uh. I think he's I

923
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 2: think he is a good golf architect, was a good

924
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: golf architect. He knew what he was doing. This is

925
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 2: me like backtracking now, and like I'm going to backslide

926
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 2: on my comment. I just don't think he was great

927
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,879
Speaker 2: at building greens there. I think that's where I want

928
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 2: to land the plane. Not a great greens builder.

929
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: I think that almost every Alison course in America should

930
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: just do a greens renovation.

931
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: I don't know, you're gonna screw more stuff up if

932
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: you do that than just like accept the fact, like

933
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 2: like you're saying, why aren't people good enough with eighty percent,

934
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 2: it's like accept the fact that you're just like a

935
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: six or seven, and you're a really solid six or

936
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 2: seven like they're so you know, it's really hard to

937
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 2: go from a seven to an eight, and or go

938
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 2: from an eight to a nine. And I don't I

939
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 2: don't know if there are any Allison courses in the country.

940
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 3: That are you know, a nine or an eight.

941
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 2: But like Davenport, you know, like I love Davenport, it's great,

942
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of those greens that are just

943
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 2: like they don't do much for me. And that's okay.

944
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 2: I think if you tried to rebuild them, maybe you'd

945
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 2: make it worse. You know, more often than not, you

946
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 2: would make it worse than you would make it better

947
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 2: if you had ten tries to do it.

948
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: I think about I grew up Caddy, I got at

949
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: Alison in course, and like I could go back there

950
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 1: tomorrow and I would know every read on every green

951
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 1: like the back of my hand. Like to me, there,

952
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: I agree with you, is like they you know, and

953
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: for people that he built just tilted greens, right, they

954
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 1: just tilt one way and there's a lot of slope

955
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,959
Speaker 1: in them, and you can get challenging spots by having

956
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 1: to put cross slope and they break a ton or

957
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: you know, downhill putts are really fast, but for the

958
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: most part, you know what's going to happen every single

959
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: time you're on the green, like okay, this one breaks

960
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: this way. I always remember as a Caddy, I wouldn't

961
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: even have to get behind I had okay there for

962
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: so long, I wouldn't even have to be behind the

963
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: person putting's ball to give the read, you know. And

964
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 1: I think that's maybe, you know where where he misses

965
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 1: a little is like the zest of of of the green.

966
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 1: And maybe it was just he was a bad putter

967
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,479
Speaker 1: and he wanted he wanted to reward his ball striking more.

968
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 3: It could be.

969
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 2: And I'm curious to you know, I've never done the

970
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 2: trip to trip to Japan, and I would love to.

971
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,720
Speaker 2: It's like maybe the highest on my list of golf

972
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 2: slash culture trips. I think that's like my number one

973
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 2: place I want to go. And I've heard his stuff

974
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 2: in Japan is different, and I would like to see it,

975
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 2: and I would like to give him a chance and

976
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 2: be an open book, or you'd be a yeah, be

977
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 2: open to receiving what he did over there.

978
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: And I think he's just happier over there and that's

979
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:48,959
Speaker 1: what led to better work.

980
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 3: What's that?

981
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: Do you think maybe he was just happier there and

982
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: he built more exciting greens.

983
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 3: Maybe yeah, I could. I don't know it.

984
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,280
Speaker 2: And maybe it harkens back to like who was running

985
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 2: the jobs for him was building stuff over there. Maybe

986
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: they were just better.

987
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: What do you do you see any of your personal

988
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: golf uh, you know, leading to bias in your work.

989
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 2: No, No, because I'm yeah, I don't play enough golf

990
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 2: and I don't have enough I don't have enough knowledge

991
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: about my own game to create any type of bias

992
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 2: of like what what I should build? Yeah, there's there's

993
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: there's nothing going on up there. It's uh yeah, you know,

994
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 2: if anything, it's being Actually, no, I have to be.

995
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 2: There's one thing I'm biased about, and it's it's my height.

996
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: Oftentimes when we're looking like from a tea box or

997
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 2: you're trying, you know, you're really trying to get that

998
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 2: last like foot of elevation change down of like can

999
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 2: you see over this bunker? Can you see the green surface?

1000
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: I'm always the one in the group that's like, yeah,

1001
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 2: we're good, Like we're good, let's move on. And then

1002
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 2: you know, I'll look over at somebody who's put shorter

1003
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 2: than me. It's like just like kneel down to my

1004
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 2: level and see what you see. It's like, okay, that's fair.

1005
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 2: And then it's like kneel down another six inches and

1006
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,479
Speaker 2: see what, Like Grandma sees, you know, and so I'm

1007
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 2: constantly reminding myself of like having to do that. So

1008
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 2: it's not something that's my game, but it's something that's

1009
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 2: like I'm six foot four, and yeah, visually I need

1010
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:32,919
Speaker 2: to like understand what it's like to be five foot

1011
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 2: four for visibility purposes.

1012
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: When you're does your mood impact how you shape stuff?

1013
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: Like if you're in a bad mood, does that day's

1014
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: product come out differently than if you're in a good mood.

1015
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 2: Maybe if it's really bad, I might decide to do

1016
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 2: something different. You know. It's not like there's only one

1017
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 2: thing to do any day that I wake up. So

1018
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 2: if I'm like, I don't think I've ever been so

1019
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 2: pissed off that I'm like I can't build this green

1020
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 2: or I can't build this bunker. But maybe it's like

1021
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,439
Speaker 2: there's some dirt that I know we need to shove

1022
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 2: over here by Thursday, So may I'll just go shove

1023
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 2: the dirt, you know. Or sometimes it's like if I

1024
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 2: know I've got to take a phone call at a

1025
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 2: certain time, it's like I'll want to be doing something

1026
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 2: that's like mindless rather than hey, I'm trying to like

1027
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 2: get the grades right and put the finishing touches on

1028
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 2: a green. The only thing, you know, it's like otherwise,

1029
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: I most of the time, I like, just like my

1030
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 2: first pass, I go as quick as possible, and it's

1031
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 2: super messy, and I want to just get the idea

1032
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 2: in as quickly as I can and then just go

1033
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: back to the tea or to the approach and see

1034
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 2: how it looks and then start refining from there. And

1035
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 2: so a lot of time that lends itself to like

1036
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: being rushed or being you know, being in some type

1037
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 2: of mood of like, all right, I'm just gonna get

1038
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 2: this done, like hog this dirt out of here real quick,

1039
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 2: like as fast as I can.

1040
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 3: But for the most part, man, I don't know.

1041
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: My disposition is usually I'm usually pretty, I'm usually not

1042
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 2: too fired up.

1043
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: I just was curious if you notice anything, you know,

1044
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 1: all right, last last thing. We'll get you out of

1045
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: here so you can go lock in for the Husker game. Here.

1046
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 1: Last last question. I you know you're you guys are

1047
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 1: currently building gil Roy at uh at Old Barnwell.

1048
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 3: Uh.

1049
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: Obviously Old barn Well has gotten you know, tons of praise.

1050
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 3: Uh.

1051
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: You know, been a kind of a smash hit. You're

1052
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: building second course there, tell tell us a little bit

1053
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 1: about like what's going to make this one unique from

1054
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: from the original course, and and how you guys are

1055
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: going about building a second course at a facility like

1056
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, on a Ruis piece of land.

1057
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know. Part of it is the

1058
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: land is different, and the way we're using the land

1059
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 2: is a little bit different. We're there's a big valley

1060
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: that cuts through the first course, and we're down the

1061
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: second course is downstream of that. The valley like in

1062
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 2: a broad sense, sort of opens up a little bit more,

1063
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 2: and those slopes, the side slopes lay back just enough

1064
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 2: that we can play off of them and on them

1065
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 2: and down them and up them a little bit more

1066
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 2: easily than we could have on the first course. The

1067
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 2: first course was more like you know, it's not quite

1068
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 2: straight up sixty feet, but it was something that we

1069
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 2: didn't want to tackle. It would have been a ton

1070
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 2: of earthwork. And and the valley down here where the

1071
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 2: gilroy is going to be is not that so we're

1072
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 2: able to use it a little bit differently, which will

1073
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 2: just lend itself to feeling different than the first course.

1074
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 2: We've found some different kinds of green sites, some on purpose,

1075
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 2: like intentionally, so like hey, we want like we want

1076
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 2: to have this green more smushed into the ground over here,

1077
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 2: even though we know there's like a cool ridge line

1078
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 2: that could be like an infinity type green or something.

1079
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 2: So making conscious choices like that during the routing process

1080
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 2: and then you know, aesthetically, how we treat that stylistically,

1081
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 2: how we treat that, which is you know, right now

1082
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: we're in the early stages of building golf and that's

1083
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 2: like it's a really fun time for Brian and me

1084
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 2: to be on site together because we just like we

1085
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 2: sort of have an idea what we want to do.

1086
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 2: But until you start tinkering around in the dirt and

1087
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: like you know, getting in the excavator, it's like, okay,

1088
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: this is like we could do this, or we could

1089
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 2: do this. You start to get a feel for what

1090
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 2: the site wants and like how you're going to treat

1091
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 2: the other eighteen holes, you know, the different things we

1092
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 2: could do. So that's kind of where we're at right now.

1093
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 2: So it's it's fun. It's like there isn't there isn't

1094
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 2: an answer to that question stylistically of like what it's

1095
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 2: going to be we know, we know it's going to

1096
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 2: be different because we want it to be a little

1097
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 2: bit different. Just as far as how I'm not really

1098
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 2: sure yet.

1099
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 1: All right, looking forward to seeing that I lied. One

1100
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 1: last question, uh dream dream locale to build your own

1101
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: golf course. End of your career. You look back and

1102
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: if there's one place you'd like to build a golf course,

1103
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter who you know, it could

1104
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: you could be anywhere.

1105
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 2: Uh Omaha, Nebraska, so I could sleep in my own bed.

1106
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: Figured that would be the answer.

1107
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, anywhere in a city.

1108
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 3: Please.

1109
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 2: Just you know, Tom talks about putting stuff out into

1110
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 2: the universe. It's like, I'm going to put stuff out

1111
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 2: of the universe. If there's like a defunct golf course

1112
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 2: that is on a decent piece of land and it's

1113
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 2: surrounded by city, like, let's save it. Let's like the

1114
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 2: people have money, Like, let's let's not invest in the

1115
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 2: next like private destination, Like invest in that piece of

1116
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 2: land and then let's like build a really cool golf

1117
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 2: course on it. So then it's in a city and

1118
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: everybody can access it, and it's really like, you know,

1119
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 2: you can drive there instead of having to fly there.

1120
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 3: Be really great.

1121
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: Uh not turn into a Ryder Cup venue. All right,

1122
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: we'll leave on that, Blake, big thanks for coming coming on.

1123
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: People can UH check in on UH on what's going

1124
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 1: on you on your website dundee goolf dot com. Uh.

1125
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: They also can follow you on h on X or

1126
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 1: on UH on Instagram. So look forward to seeing your

1127
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: new work and UH it's always fun to chat golf

1128
01:03:49,880 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: with you. Thanks Andy, all right, big thanks for Blay

1129
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: joining in giving us his time sprecious time probably helped

1130
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: the time pass before the Huskers played Michigan. We'll know

1131
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: the result when you're listening to this. I'm hoping they

1132
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 1: keep the undefeated run going, one of the great stories

1133
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 1: in college basketball. As I mentioned at the top, we're

1134
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: gonna do a little Q and A segment. I think

1135
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 1: we might just do one queue here this week, just

1136
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: because it's already an hour. Nick Nelson had a question.

1137
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: States like Wisconsin, Nebraska, and the Carolinas have enjoyed a

1138
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: huge explosion of exceptional golf course development in the past

1139
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 1: few decades. Are there any states ripe for the same

1140
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: level of new development in the next ten years. I

1141
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 1: would say that one state missing from this is Texas

1142
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: and the explosion has kind of just started to happen.

1143
01:04:55,520 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: You obviously have new courses Luling Children's Hall, you have

1144
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: the Kaiser's Wild Spring Dunes, you have David McClay kidd

1145
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: did a course there in Austin called uh I think

1146
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 1: it's uh Laura Loma h. So you're starting to see

1147
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: a ton of development in Texas. There's obviously the Big Covey,

1148
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 1: which one golf digests best new course. That's a ton

1149
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: of big development area. I think just in general, when

1150
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: you look at golf development, you need states that have

1151
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:37,919
Speaker 1: ample land and uh, pretty lax regulatory situations. So when

1152
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: you think about that, like the western part of the

1153
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: United States, one of the issues that they are going

1154
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 1: to confront all the time is water. But they have

1155
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: a ton of land, So it's kind of like a

1156
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: trade off, like, are you going to see some great

1157
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: projects come out of the West. That's like kind of

1158
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: like a maybe because of the issues with natural resources,

1159
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: although they have a abundant land. Am I going to

1160
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 1: see a bunch of new projects up in the in

1161
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 1: the northeast of the United States? No, there's no land,

1162
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: you know, trying to find two hundred plus part acre parcels.

1163
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 1: That's it's expensive and it's going to be really challenging

1164
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: and you're gonna end up being pretty remote with short seasons.

1165
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 1: So I think like where you see a lot of

1166
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: this happening, you know, the unlock of the Carolinas is

1167
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 1: like it's a twelve month season. It's a realistic like

1168
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: people play golf twelve months a year there. I think

1169
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 1: that's where you see that. Nebraska I think is like

1170
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 1: kind of quasi you know, it's just not you know,

1171
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: the season's really short and it's going to be the

1172
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: sand hills, and like one of the challenges of building

1173
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 1: like you go find great land to the sand hills tomorrow.

1174
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 1: Like you know, there's if you go look on land sites,

1175
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: you can find great land for golf. Now, one of

1176
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 1: the tricky things with Nebraska that nobody thinks about is

1177
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: it's hard to staff NOSCA. A state that might be

1178
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: ripe for development could be looking in Oklahoma. Oklahoma. I

1179
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: think there's some areas of sand in Oklahoma which people

1180
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: like to build golf golf courses on. But I think

1181
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: the other kind of sneaky thing about Oklahoma, it's got

1182
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 1: a really nice playing season I you know, I went

1183
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: down and played Dornic Hills right after it opened back

1184
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 1: up after their renovation, which is about an hour and

1185
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 1: a half north of Dallas or more, Oklahoma. But I

1186
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 1: went and played there in mid November. It was seventy

1187
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: degrees and sunny, so you get those like much longer

1188
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: seasons there. And I think that that could be an

1189
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,479
Speaker 1: area where you might look in in the future and say, hey,

1190
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 1: there could be development there. I think if you look in,

1191
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, Georgia could be a state that you might

1192
01:07:55,160 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 1: see more development. And but I think, like overall, you

1193
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 1: got to look for places that have a lot of

1194
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:07,479
Speaker 1: available land and you know, population nearby. That's the other

1195
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 1: big thing. I don't think the Kaisers when they built

1196
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 1: Sand Valley had really thought about like the population within

1197
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: four hours of it when they when they started. But

1198
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 1: what became abundantly clear about like a public golf resort

1199
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:26,599
Speaker 1: is that population within a driving distance is hugely important

1200
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 1: to the success. And you know, with Sand Valley, you

1201
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 1: have Minneapolis, Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, you know, Iowa all within

1202
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 1: like an easy shot of of the of the golf

1203
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,640
Speaker 1: and and I think that's like a huge part of

1204
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 1: their success beyond delivering a great product. So I think

1205
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:48,679
Speaker 1: like the the most important things to look at are

1206
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:53,560
Speaker 1: you know, resources in terms of land and water. Uh.

1207
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 1: And then you know the the laws like are they

1208
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: going to play ball and want to you know, build golf.

1209
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,479
Speaker 1: And then then the back half of it is like

1210
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 1: depending on what type of facility you want to build,

1211
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 1: population nearby uh, And that's how you kind of I

1212
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: would triangulate finding places that you want to build golf.

1213
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 1: So UH. Anyways, we'll do more questions. We have a

1214
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 1: lot of like different golf course golf questions from PGA

1215
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 1: tour to golf course architecture and we will loop in

1216
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 1: PJ for them. He didn't want to join this one.

1217
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: He didn't feel like he was going to add to that,

1218
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 1: but he probably would have. We could have asked him

1219
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 1: where he would have liked liked golf to go. But

1220
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 1: thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. You know,

1221
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to jake to myself. I'll say it

1222
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:45,560
Speaker 1: here and if if he doesn't come through, UH, that

1223
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: is you know, he blood's on his hand. But what

1224
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 1: schedule is our first chat with Trevor Trevor Immelman next week? Uh,

1225
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 1: look for looking forward to talking a little bit of

1226
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: golf with him. It's been a while since we last talked.

1227
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 1: I think we haven't talked since since the Open. So

1228
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: look forward to chatting with Trevor and we'll catch you

1229
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 1: next week. Thanks for listening.