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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: Very excited to welcome to the show astrophysicist and author

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Speaker 1: of the new book To Infinity and Beyond, the one

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Speaker 1: and only Neil de grasse Tyson. Welcome star. So great

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Speaker 1: to have you. It's an honor.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. I'm delighted by the Lincoln memorial

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Speaker 4: behind you. It's probably just a photo.

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Speaker 2: That's fine, it's a it's a video screen to be clear.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and I appreciate your background as well. It's quite

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Speaker 1: quite lovely and appropriate.

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Speaker 3: There you go.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with the most basic question. What do

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Speaker 1: you want people to get from the new book?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a basic a question there is. I want

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Speaker 4: to remind people that the discoveries we've made in our

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Speaker 4: attempt to ascend from Earth involved a lot of fits

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Speaker 4: and starts. Often, if you read a book on how

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Speaker 4: we've come to where we are, how we've come to

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Speaker 4: know what we know about the universe, the storytelling and

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Speaker 4: the accounts that you get the hits and not the misses,

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Speaker 4: and you lose track of the fact that there's a

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Speaker 4: human spirit that persists, and it's been active ever since

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Speaker 4: we stood flat footed and looked up at.

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Speaker 5: The moon and asked, how would you ever get there?

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Speaker 4: Now, think about it, if it was the year seventeen

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Speaker 4: hundred and you had that thought, what answer would you

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Speaker 4: give yourself? Is there a sailing ship that can float

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Speaker 4: through the air, and does the air go all the

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Speaker 4: way to the moon?

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Speaker 5: And then would you land? Like what would that be?

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Speaker 4: And because rockets don't exist yet, rocket fuel doesn't exist yet,

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Speaker 4: so how would you even.

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Speaker 5: Have that thought?

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Speaker 4: So this is a it's a chronicle of all the

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Speaker 4: ways we've looked up and wondered how we would ascend

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Speaker 4: from Earth. Now, not only ascend with our physical body,

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Speaker 4: which we've gotten to the moon as the farthest we've

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Speaker 4: taken ourselves, but we've looked beyond the moon, of course,

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Speaker 4: and so now we've sent our robotic emissaries, space probes,

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Speaker 4: this sort of thing, and then how about like to

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Speaker 4: the galaxies and the universe. Well, the only thing that

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Speaker 4: can get us there is our minds and our laws

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Speaker 4: of physics. So maybe one day there'll be some technology

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Speaker 4: warp drives or something fantastical to get there, but not

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Speaker 4: at this moment. And I don't know that this moment

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Speaker 4: thinking about the universe is any different from the seventeen

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Speaker 4: hundreds thinking about just ascending to the top of the atmosphere.

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Speaker 4: And along the way there's always some movie that is

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Speaker 4: that tried to do what it is we're talking about

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Speaker 4: right or did do And I comment on did they

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Speaker 4: get it right?

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Speaker 5: Did they get it wrong?

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Speaker 4: And that's the sort of the pop culture thread of

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Speaker 4: this book, because it's not just the science and the history,

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Speaker 4: it's how does it relevant to stuff you've thought about

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Speaker 4: and care about. So the takeaway would be the human

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Speaker 4: spirit knows no bounds.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the things we wanted to get your

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Speaker 2: take on, sir, is a recent development about the understanding

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Speaker 2: of cosmology. We knew that if we were going to

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Speaker 2: ask somebody and they're going to explain it to us,

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Speaker 2: it could be you let's put this up there on

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Speaker 2: the screen from the New York Times about how the

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Speaker 2: story of our universe may be starting to unravel as

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Speaker 2: a result of developments and understandings from the new telescope.

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Speaker 2: So could you put it in perhaps to plain English

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Speaker 2: for us and for the viewers, for what is unraveling

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Speaker 2: and what are the questions that are raised that we've

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Speaker 2: previously had a model to understand that may not have

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Speaker 2: been correct.

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Speaker 5: So you're assuming I agree with that title?

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Speaker 3: Oh well, perfect, Well will you disagree.

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Speaker 4: With Yeah, the titles such as that are irresistible to

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Speaker 4: the press. Of course, you can't get enough titles that

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Speaker 4: say everything we thought before might be wrong and we

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Speaker 4: have to redo it. You can't, So let me just

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Speaker 4: start with that. By the way, it's not just the press.

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Speaker 4: Every YouTube video where there's an infomercial that begins the

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Speaker 4: establishment things this or you've always eaten this way or

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Speaker 4: exercised that way, but this is the right way for

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Speaker 4: some reason, those are irresistible. So let's collectively recognize that fact.

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Speaker 4: So the James Webspace Telescope was conceived, designed, and invented

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Speaker 4: with the intent to probe the early universe. At the

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Speaker 4: time galaxies were being born. Okay, let's just put that

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Speaker 4: out there, and it does it very cleverly.

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Speaker 5: All right.

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Speaker 4: It's sensitive to infrared light, and galaxies being born actually

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Speaker 4: give off a lot of for violet light. But since

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Speaker 4: the time, the time that has elapsed and the stretching

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Speaker 4: the expansion of the universe that has unfolded, since then,

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Speaker 4: the ultraviolet has become infrared light. So we have tuned

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Speaker 4: the telescope to view galaxies being born in how they

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Speaker 4: would look to us today. This is the kind of

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Speaker 4: thinking that goes on in this all right. So there's

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Speaker 4: a period of the early universe when all the matter

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Speaker 4: and energy is slowly cooling and it hasn't yet formed stars.

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Speaker 4: It's still trying to coalesce gravitationally to make stars and

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Speaker 4: galaxies and all the things we're familiar with. So there's

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Speaker 4: a period we called the Dark Ages. It's a great

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Speaker 4: term and fully explainable and understandable concept. The James Webspace

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Speaker 4: Telescope found five five galaxies, full red bloody galaxies alive

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Speaker 4: and kicking in the Dark Ages. We have no explanation

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Speaker 4: for that, Okay, So what we can say is, well,

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Speaker 4: maybe we don't understand galaxies or the distances we're giving

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Speaker 4: to them. Maybe there's a flaw, or you can say,

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Speaker 4: let's throw everything out. That has answered a thousand other

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Speaker 4: questions we've had about the early Universe's throw all of

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Speaker 4: that out because of this one observation. Now that's maybe,

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Speaker 4: but unlikely because of how successful the account of the

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Speaker 4: early universe has been with so many other observations that

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Speaker 4: have been conducted. Now, in all fairness, the James Webspace

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Speaker 4: telescope is more powerful than all previous telescopes. So it's

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Speaker 4: bringing to us access. It's giving us access to the

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Speaker 4: early universe that no other telescope has. So we're going

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Speaker 4: to take this seriously. But I want to give an

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Speaker 4: example from history. Copernicus decides that maybe the Sun is

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Speaker 4: in the middle of the known universe, in the middle

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Speaker 4: of the world, rather than the Earth, and people before

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Speaker 4: this said Earth. It's obvious Earth is in the middle.

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Speaker 4: It's clear when everything rises and sets around us and

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Speaker 4: fed our ego, and it was consistent.

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Speaker 5: With what we saw.

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Speaker 4: Copernicus says, No, maybe we are a planet among others

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Speaker 4: and we go around the Sun. No watch, he presumed

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Speaker 4: orbits were perfect circles. They're not, but he presumed why

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Speaker 4: assume some other shape he didn't know. Plus, if God

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Speaker 4: made the universe and God is perfect and a circle

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Speaker 4: is perfect, of course planets would orbit in perfect circles.

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Speaker 4: So he does this and it does not match the

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Speaker 4: position of planets on the sky.

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Speaker 5: So do you.

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Speaker 4: Say, Copernicus, you're wrong, it's not working. Let's go back

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Speaker 4: to epicycles and the geocentric universe. Or do you say

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Speaker 4: it explains a lot of other stuff. Maybe there's an

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Speaker 4: adjustment that's necessary. And sure enough, though it would take

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Speaker 4: you know, fifty sixty years Kepler were cum aloys say no,

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Speaker 4: that orbits are not perfect circles, ellipses being everything fits

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Speaker 4: into place, and it retains the Sun in the center

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Speaker 4: of the known universe. So science, like science, has many

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Speaker 4: fits and starts, And the book chronicles how we think

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Speaker 4: one thing is true, more data come in and it

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Speaker 4: supports it, and another one.

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Speaker 5: More data come in and you have to discard it.

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Speaker 4: So there's chance we have to rethink the early universe,

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Speaker 4: as that clickbait title indicates. But I wouldn't be so quick,

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Speaker 4: given how much else the Big Bang model of the

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Speaker 4: universe accounts for very helpful.

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Speaker 1: The book is really a celebration of human exploration and curiosity,

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Speaker 1: and are.

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Speaker 4: Twin engines the twin chariots of cosmic discovery love?

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, indeed. And I was wondering if it was

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Speaker 1: partly inspired in this moment when we have such a

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Speaker 1: focus on machine learning and AI and large language models

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Speaker 1: and all of this extreme technological development, if there was

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Speaker 1: an intentionality around in this moment, recentering around the spark

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Speaker 1: of all of you know, this exploration and scientific discovery, which,

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Speaker 1: as you put it, is, you know, human inquiry and creativity.

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Speaker 4: You know it's not spoken enough, is the fact that

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Speaker 4: your language models and all the AI that AI can

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Speaker 4: be creative in some ways. Yes, it's found new ways

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Speaker 4: to checkmate you on a chessboard, new ways to beat

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Speaker 4: you at go. Of course AIS beat us at Jeopardy.

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Speaker 4: You know why people didn't run for the hills at

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Speaker 4: that point, I don't know. Apparently, you know, when AI

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Speaker 4: started composing your term paper, then people lost it.

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Speaker 5: It was like, oh my guys, AI.

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Speaker 4: It was like, dude, We've been using AI for decades

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Speaker 4: in my field. In AI's all around us. AI is

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Speaker 4: driving Siri in your iPhone giving you the shortest distance

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Speaker 4: to Grandma's house without.

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Speaker 5: Checking with a human being in the loop.

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Speaker 4: So don't all of a sudden complain or be concerned

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Speaker 4: about AI. Yes, there are certain tracks of AI that, yeah,

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Speaker 4: you want to regulate that or keep an eye on it,

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Speaker 4: But AI as an encompassing basin of a catch basin

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Speaker 4: is so we're embedded in it, So just deal get

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Speaker 4: used to that. First of all, Now I can tell

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Speaker 4: you this. I was once interviewed by AI in a podcast, okay,

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Speaker 4: by a chat one of these chat programs, and it

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Speaker 4: was very clear right off the bat that it could

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Speaker 4: not know what it didn't have access to on the Internet.

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Speaker 4: So it's body of knowledge and source of creativity was

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Speaker 4: completely fed by the Internet.

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Speaker 5: And even when you wanted.

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Speaker 4: To be creative, you can say write me a sonnet

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Speaker 4: in the style of Shakespeare, it'll do that. But if

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Speaker 4: I say write me a sonnet in the style of

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Speaker 4: Arnold Schmednick, who's exit on the internet. Yet, it's not

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Speaker 4: going to know or write me a style that has

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Speaker 4: yet to be discovered. It's got no place to hang

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Speaker 4: its hooks on. And so so the spirit of cosmic

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Speaker 4: discovery and human ambitions. I'm going to go to the

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Speaker 4: shoreline and discover a new fish. AI is not going

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Speaker 4: to do that, a new bacterium, a new life form,

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Speaker 4: because I'm out there in the field. AI is not

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Speaker 4: walking around doing this. It's stuck as it's a chunk

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Speaker 4: of silicon in the middle of your computer. So, yes,

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Speaker 4: it's a celebration of being human and not being AI.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's such an incredible answer.

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Speaker 2: I did want to ask you, though, sir, about this

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Speaker 2: human celebration creativity. I've all I've been so fascinated also

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Speaker 2: about human exploration, about going to space, the moon. I

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Speaker 2: remember you once said, I think it was on the

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Speaker 2: Joe Rogan podcast, about whether we would be interesting to

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Speaker 2: an alien species. So I'm curious, like, why would an

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Speaker 2: alien species not be curious?

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Speaker 3: Not only just curious about us, but why.

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Speaker 2: Would they not be you know, if they are to

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Speaker 2: be like Seafare or a space faring civilization and reach

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Speaker 2: this level, why would why is it inconceivable that they

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Speaker 2: would be interested in visiting us?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so let me so sure.

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Speaker 4: Sure, it's just it's funner to say they're not interested

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Speaker 4: in us because we're too far below them.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 4: But no, all if they're deeply curious about life forms,

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Speaker 4: they might be curious.

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Speaker 5: That they're there.

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Speaker 4: They're more species of insects than there are human beings

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Speaker 4: in the world, so I think Darwin someone once said,

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Speaker 4: like beetles. There's like some uncountable number of kind of beetles.

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Speaker 4: So if you come to Earth, you would say, Earth

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Speaker 4: must really love beetles. Okay, forget the humans. The beetles

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Speaker 4: are the thing that's all about, or the biomass in

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Speaker 4: ants or in fungus or in trees. So it's our

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Speaker 4: ego talking to presume that we would be the most

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Speaker 4: interesting thing to an alien who's interested in life forms.

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Speaker 4: But I joke that we think we're who's we're intelligent?

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Speaker 4: But who declared that we did? Okay, the third party

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Speaker 4: declare it no humans, declare that humans are intelligent, and

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Speaker 4: we may be so far below the intelligence of aliens.

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Speaker 4: And then they see us kill one another based on

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Speaker 4: who you worship, who you sleep with, what side of

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Speaker 4: a line in the sands you're born, on how reflective

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Speaker 4: your skin color is to sunlight, and they might run

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Speaker 4: home and say, there's no sign of intelligent life on Earth.

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Speaker 4: So there are a lot of ways I think we can

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Speaker 4: slice this. One of them would be maybe they're interested

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Speaker 4: in humans or perhaps beetles, or maybe they're not interested

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Speaker 4: in us at all, or maybe there's so much smarter

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Speaker 4: than us that we don't even know that Earth is

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Speaker 4: a literal aquarium terrarium that they created for their own amusement.

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Speaker 3: Well, now you've really set people off on that one.

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Speaker 2: But I wanted to ask if you had any reaction

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Speaker 2: to the UFO whistleblower. He actually came out just a

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Speaker 2: couple of days ago and he said, of you actually said,

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Speaker 2: you have a PhD in physics, where is your curiosity?

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Speaker 2: I have credentials. I would be happy to go toe

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Speaker 2: to toe with you. If he wants to debate me,

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Speaker 2: I would be fine with that. So first, just any

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Speaker 2: reaction or if you have any interest in debating.

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Speaker 3: The UFO, we'd be happy to which we would host.

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Speaker 5: Of course. Yeah, so I don't. I don't.

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Speaker 4: You've never seen me in a debate on anything. Debating

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Speaker 4: is not the path to objective truth. The path to

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Speaker 4: objective truth is data, all right, So when two scientists

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Speaker 4: get into a quote debate, there's an implicit contract between

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Speaker 4: the two.

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Speaker 5: Either I'm right.

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Speaker 4: And you're wrong. Either you're right and I'm wrong, or

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Speaker 4: we're both wrong. In a rare case, we can both

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Speaker 4: be right, but it's very rare. And it's another like

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Speaker 4: we can be blind and touching an elephant and I

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Speaker 4: can well, elephants are these hard you know, I read

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Speaker 4: things and you say, no, elephants are these stringy thing

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Speaker 4: you're touching the tail on. We're both right, right, because

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Speaker 4: we're talking about the same object. But in most cases

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Speaker 4: that's not the case. Right, So what happens to the

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Speaker 4: when the two scientists, they'll have the conversation and at

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Speaker 4: some point they'll say, okay, we can't agree. We need

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Speaker 4: more data to resolve this. Now let's go have a beer.

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Speaker 4: So it is not it makes no point to debate

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Speaker 4: someone who's talking about classified information that nobody else can see.

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Speaker 5: I can't have.

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Speaker 4: N't that's not so what needs to happen It needs

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Speaker 4: to release the information. We did that in the Apollo era.

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Speaker 4: We got moon rocks, brought it back, shared the rocks

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Speaker 4: with the world so everybody can investigate it and evaluate it.

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Speaker 4: So if you have a result. The way science arrives

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Speaker 4: at objective truth is not by debate, which politicians like doing.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, I've never seen a debate ever

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Speaker 4: where one person says, you know, you convinced me.

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Speaker 5: I agree.

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Speaker 3: That was on this show sometimes sometimes.

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Speaker 4: Quick point is that all he has to do is

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Speaker 4: release release it for independent analysis. And in science and

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Speaker 4: objective truth is established by multiple verifications of acclaim and

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Speaker 4: I witness testimony. Sworn testimony is irrelevant to science. We

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Speaker 4: don't care what you saw or what you say you saw.

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Speaker 5: We care a little bit. We'll make a note of it.

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Speaker 4: But in the end, if I want to, if I

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Speaker 4: want to declare that what you said you saw, what

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Speaker 4: you did see is objectively true, other people have to

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Speaker 4: verify it, yes, and you and bring it forward. And

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Speaker 4: by so so the aliens in Mexico where they roll

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Speaker 4: them out.

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Speaker 5: Right, that's a start. I love it. I love it. Okay.

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Speaker 4: So now to verify whether this is true or a hoax,

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Speaker 4: allow others to study your your three foot tall alien bodies.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, especially skeptical.

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Speaker 4: Lab study it and find out, hey, there's something here

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Speaker 4: about it. Bing we got two aliens that were hanging

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Speaker 4: out two thousand years ago. By the way, I wonder,

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Speaker 4: by the way, your nose is just an empty cavity

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Speaker 4: into your skull, and so old mummies and things don't

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Speaker 4: have noses. These aliens were bones the whole rest of

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Speaker 4: the body, but they had a nose. Car what how

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Speaker 4: do you keep a nose opens in aliens? So maybe

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Speaker 4: there's a bone in its nose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe they got a different thing going on.

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Speaker 4: All right, hips, ribs, femur skull. So anyhow, fingers, okay,

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Speaker 4: three fingers. There was alien. Okay, so I'm looking for

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Speaker 4: I love it.

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Speaker 5: I love it. Now release it to the world.

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Speaker 2: I agree. So let's let that heed to Congress. Congress

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Speaker 2: had really send.

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Speaker 1: It from Okay, I got one last for you before

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Speaker 1: we let you go. We were talking about the James

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Speaker 1: Web Research telescope and how incredible that has been and

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Speaker 1: you know for people like you and the new discoveries

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Speaker 1: that it could unleash. You also have a lot of

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Speaker 1: private sector in investment thing about you know, SpaceX and

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Speaker 1: these other companies in terms of exploration. Do you worry

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Speaker 1: at all about the profit motive sort of supplanting the

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Speaker 1: motive of just scientific curiosity. As private space exploration becomes

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Speaker 1: a larger and larger chunk of this type of inquiry, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Just to be clear, I wrote a whole other book

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Speaker 4: on this called Space Chronicles, Facing the Ultimate Frontiers a

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Speaker 4: few years back. But in it the point I make is,

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Speaker 4: first of all, there's been private enterprise in space exploration

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Speaker 4: from the beginning. Yes, the Saturfy rockets, said NASA on

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Speaker 4: the side, but it was built by the Space Industrial Complex.

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Speaker 4: In fact, the lamb that which landed on the Moon

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Speaker 4: was built. I live in New York City, built right

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Speaker 4: out here on bethpage Long Island at the headquarters of

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Speaker 4: Grummin Aerospace.

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Speaker 5: People still walk tall because.

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Speaker 4: They had an aunt, an uncle, a cousin who worked

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Speaker 4: on that project. So it's not like private enterprise is

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Speaker 4: a new participant in it.

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Speaker 5: First.

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Speaker 4: Second, the difference is private enterprise is leaving the goals. Okay,

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Speaker 4: because back then private enterprise responded to the needs of

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Speaker 4: the government. Okay, they're they're leading the goals and building

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Speaker 4: the capacity for people to access space, including governments. It

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Speaker 4: is you are witnessing the birth of a new industry

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Speaker 4: that can't be bad, not in a capitalistic sense, that

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Speaker 4: can't be bad. Sure, all right, When planes were invented first,

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Speaker 4: only rich people flew in planes just to make that clear.

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Speaker 4: Then it became commoditized, and then it got cheaper and cheaper.

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Speaker 4: Now basically everyone has flown an airplane. Okay, who's Who's

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Speaker 4: who has a job and has to travel? So so

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Speaker 4: uh I tourist industry, which would be the driver of this.

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Speaker 4: I presume I think it's let it, let it go

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Speaker 4: that the science frontier will not be done by private enterprise,

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Speaker 4: because the frontier is you got to go where no

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Speaker 4: one has gone before. The risks are uncertain, the return

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Speaker 4: on the investments is not yet established. So now space

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Speaker 4: as much as Elon says I'm sending a rocket to Mars, no,

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Speaker 4: if it's his rocket that goes to Mars. First, it's

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Speaker 4: because the government will say we're going to Mars.

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Speaker 5: Who's got a rocket?

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Speaker 4: And then Elon rolls out his rocket and we ride

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Speaker 4: one of Elon's rockets to Mars. Then we ended up

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Speaker 4: paying for that. But he has no business case to

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Speaker 4: send people to Mars other than the dream state that

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Speaker 4: that represents, which can trigger other investments for other things

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Speaker 4: in the pipeline below it, which is nothing wrong with

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Speaker 4: that either.

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Speaker 2: Well, sir, it's been a real pleasure talking to you.

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Speaker 2: Really got us thinking and we appreciate you joining us.

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Speaker 2: We got the book right here in front of us.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna have a linked down in the description encourage

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Speaker 2: everybody to go and buy it.

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Speaker 4: And I just want to just conclude here by saying,

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Speaker 4: are UFO guy? Yes, who's got I'm flattered and honored

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Speaker 4: that he would call, you know, name check me in

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Speaker 4: the press, politely name check me. And I just want

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Speaker 4: to say, it's not to debate and just bring it out.

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Speaker 2: Bring him Okay, Well, it's not just him, it's Congress too, though,

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Speaker 2: to be fair, it's what you say. It's not just him,

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Speaker 2: it's well he wants to put the information out. It's

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Speaker 2: Congress who has had some issues there as well as

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Speaker 2: the intelligence community.

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Speaker 3: But I agree with you. You should come out, yeah,

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Speaker 3: figure it out and then then call me.

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Speaker 2: Okay, did you hear that, David Rush?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: What it is is that the aliens come. It's like

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Speaker 4: they say, take me to your leader. I'm not bringing

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Speaker 4: it to the president.

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Speaker 3: No, okay, I.

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Speaker 5: Don't care who the president is. Is going to NASA.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, thank you very much, sir. I'm sure that

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Speaker 3: will go out all right.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for your interest.

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Speaker 3: Appreciated.

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Speaker 1: Great chatting with you,