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Speaker 3: We're going to get to the situation in Israel in
Speaker 3: a special conversation with former Ambassador Daniel Freed. Coming up.
Speaker 3: But first history is made in the House of Representatives
Speaker 3: as the gentleman from New York is expelled.
Speaker 1: Let's listen, and.
Speaker 4: In the Affirmative the resolution is adopted. An emotion to
Speaker 4: reconsider is laid upon the table. The Clerk will notify
Speaker 4: the Governor of the State of New York of the
Speaker 4: action of the House under Clause five D of Rule twenty.
Speaker 4: The Chair announces to the House that, in light of
Speaker 4: the expulsion of the gentleman from New York, mister Santos,
Speaker 4: the whole number of the House is now four hundred
Speaker 4: and thirty four.
Speaker 3: You have at the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson,
Speaker 3: presiding three to eleven to one fourteen to remove George Santos,
Speaker 3: fascinating one hundred and five Republicans voting yes. A majority
Speaker 3: of Republicans that means this was again three eleven to
Speaker 3: one fourteen, a majority of Republicans voting to keep George
Speaker 3: Santos in Congress. Fascinating. As we write on the terminal,
Speaker 3: the only real surprise was that it took so long.
Speaker 3: And that's where we start our conversation with Jonathan Tamari
Speaker 3: of Bloomberg Government. He was on the hill, he was
Speaker 3: in the House when this happened, and Jonathan, it's great
Speaker 3: to have you here. What's next now for this seat
Speaker 3: and what's next for George Santos, Well.
Speaker 5: For George Santos, I think it's anybody's guests, honestly, I mean,
Speaker 5: just based on the wild ride that he has taken
Speaker 5: us all on on these past months, I don't think
Speaker 5: we could rule anything out. As far as what he's
Speaker 5: going to do next. He did not make that clear
Speaker 5: when he was leaving. As far as the seat, I mean,
Speaker 5: this is going to be a petitive seat. It was
Speaker 5: one when he won it. It's something it's a seat
Speaker 5: that Democrats are going to go after in any kind
Speaker 5: of special election that happens, and so it's going to
Speaker 5: be you know, and now Republicans don't have the power
Speaker 5: of incumbency to try to hang on to it. So
Speaker 5: it's going to be one of those key House seats
Speaker 5: to watch in the coming year. And for the time being,
Speaker 5: at leads Republicans short one vote with an already really
Speaker 5: narrow majority.
Speaker 3: To your point, it sets off what will be an
Speaker 3: important and competitive race here. The governor will announce a
Speaker 3: special election. Is that right, Kathy Hochl has ten days
Speaker 3: to get the ball rolling on that.
Speaker 5: That's my understanding, and now I have to met I'm
Speaker 5: not clear on exactly how quickly that special election will happen.
Speaker 5: It usually takes some time to just get the mechanics
Speaker 5: and the machinery of an election in place, for each
Speaker 5: party to nominate somebody, to get ballots printed, and you know,
Speaker 5: notices sent out to anybody who needs to vote. But
Speaker 5: that is my understanding of what the general next step is.
Speaker 3: Yes, it must occur then between eighty days after the proclamation,
Speaker 3: to give you a sense of the timeline here, Jonathan. Lastly,
Speaker 3: it's important to note the breakdown here. As I mentioned
Speaker 3: three eleven, one fourteen, a majority of Republicans voting to
Speaker 3: keep George Santos in the seat. Two Democrats did as well,
Speaker 3: what did that have to do with? Was this about
Speaker 3: the fact that he was not convicted? What are you
Speaker 3: hearing from folks like the speaker himself and the Majority
Speaker 3: leader but voted not to expel George Santos.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I and in the entire House Republican leadership, you know,
Speaker 5: uniformly voted to keep him in Congress. The argument that
Speaker 5: you hear in public is that they're afraid of setting
Speaker 5: a precedent, that this was not a criminal conviction, that
Speaker 5: they don't want to be kicking people out of Congress
Speaker 5: for something that's less than who has not had his
Speaker 5: day in court, so to speak. Other people would point
Speaker 5: out the Ethics Committee did a full and throw investigation
Speaker 5: and reached it their own conclusions. I think there is
Speaker 5: certainly some manner of politics involved here Republican and knowing
Speaker 5: how hard it's been for them to pass their legislation
Speaker 5: with the majority as it is much less down one person,
Speaker 5: and I think there's just frankly a bit of tribalism
Speaker 5: that comes with any of these votes that people just
Speaker 5: go to kind of shirts and skins in Congress sometimes,
Speaker 5: and you know, one hundred and twelve Republicans voted to
Speaker 5: keep him in office, and I think that is one
Speaker 5: of the driving factors in almost every vote that happens,
Speaker 5: including this one.
Speaker 3: So we're down back down to four thirty four, and
Speaker 3: that is the Congress and the House of Representatives that
Speaker 3: Jonathan tomorrow will be covering from Bloomberg government. Jonathan, it's
Speaker 3: great to have you back with us here. We'll get
Speaker 3: into that more with the panel with Rick and Jennie
Speaker 3: a little bit later on. As we turn our attention
Speaker 3: on a day where we have multiple stories developing before
Speaker 3: our eyes. The situation in Israel now resuming its war
Speaker 3: against Tamas after this week long truce, the one that
Speaker 3: was extended a couple of times, it got to seven days,
Speaker 3: and within two hours of the truce coming to an
Speaker 3: end last night, air strikes resumed in Gaza. Thirty five
Speaker 3: five people were killed, according to Palestinian health officials. We
Speaker 3: want to hear from the Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln,
Speaker 3: speaking earlier about how we got to this point and
Speaker 3: where we go from here. Israel has agreed to a
Speaker 3: clear plan to help avoid civilian casualties going forward, speaking
Speaker 3: as well to humanitarian aid. Here's the Secretary of State.
Speaker 6: We saw Israel take steps immediately today to start to
Speaker 6: get information of people about where safe areas are, how
Speaker 6: they how they can get out of harm's way. And
Speaker 6: we're just talking about right now today, and I haven't
Speaker 6: had a chance to see exactly what what happened today.
Speaker 6: I have seen that information start to get out. I've
Speaker 6: saw the plans that Israel has in a multiplicity of
Speaker 6: ways to do everything possible to affect civilians, including making
Speaker 6: sure that they have the information they need and there
Speaker 6: are ways to accommodate them.
Speaker 3: And so this becomes a story of state craft more
Speaker 3: than ever. As the Secretary of State speaks there from
Speaker 3: the tarmac, and that's where we begin our conversation with
Speaker 3: Daniel Freed. Why is her family distinguished Fellow at the
Speaker 3: Atlantic Council? Is former Ambassador to Poland, former National Security
Speaker 3: Council Senior Director, and spend time as well as a
Speaker 3: citizen Secretary of State for Europe. Mister ambassador, it's great
Speaker 3: to have you back here. What is the Secretary of
Speaker 3: State's role in this could be any scenario that we're
Speaker 3: talking about in dealing with an ally foreign government in
Speaker 3: trying to control their actions in a time like this
Speaker 3: when it comes to hammering out a deal that he
Speaker 3: was describing a clear plan to limit casualties to what
Speaker 3: extent can the Secretary of State drive that conversation.
Speaker 7: Secretary Blincoln has both immediate and longer ranged tasks before him,
Speaker 7: and if he looks tired, which he does, it's because
Speaker 7: he is. This is not easy work. He needs to
Speaker 7: keep things from flying completely apart in the Middle East,
Speaker 7: to counsel the Israelis to have do and frankly better
Speaker 7: regard for the civilian casualties of their military operations against
Speaker 7: Hamas he will if he can try to negotiate I
Speaker 7: suspect a new ceasefire, to resume the exchange of Israeli
Speaker 7: prisoners and Hamas hostages. And he hass to do all
Speaker 7: of this with his eye on the ball of an
Speaker 7: actual settlement. It will take massive amounts of time and energy,
Speaker 7: and that is the fate of US secretaries of State.
Speaker 7: I remember that Henry Kissinger made NonStop diploy his means
Speaker 7: of trying to bring an end to the Young Kipper
Speaker 7: War in nineteen seventy three to stabilize things between Israel
Speaker 7: and its neighbors and to set the stage, as it
Speaker 7: turned out, or more progress ahead, ending ultimately in the
Speaker 7: Israel Egyptian piece that was signed at Camp David during
Speaker 7: the administration of Jimmy Carter. So that kind of state
Speaker 7: craft Kissingerry in short term state craft that hopefully improves
Speaker 7: things in the immediate term and set the stage for
Speaker 7: sets the stage for progress in the medium and longer term,
Speaker 7: is what the US administration is faced with. And they're
Speaker 7: doing it. I mean they're trying. You can see that
Speaker 7: with CIA Director Bill Burns in the Middle East and
Speaker 7: Tony Blinken working with the Israelis. The administration is doing
Speaker 7: what American administrations do in the world in general, and
Speaker 7: in the Middle East in particular. We, not the Chinese,
Speaker 7: not the Russians, have the ability to move things forward,
Speaker 7: and that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 3: Does Kissingerry, and also imply continued shuttle diplomacy, Secretary of
Speaker 3: State b Lincoln will be living on a plane. Whether
Speaker 3: it's Egypt, whether it's Cutter, whether it's Israel. He's going
Speaker 3: to have to stay in the region.
Speaker 7: Well, I don't want to predict things in too much detail,
Speaker 7: but yeah, I would not expect Secretary Blincoln to be
Speaker 7: spending a lot of time with his children at home.
Speaker 3: Got it that said, what do you make of the
Speaker 3: CIA director being in the middle of this ambassador he's
Speaker 3: not a diplomat, but our chief intelligence official has been
Speaker 3: in the middle of this entire deal making process in
Speaker 3: cutter Ah.
Speaker 7: But Bill Burns was indeed a diplomat. He is not
Speaker 7: a career intelligence official. He's a foreign service officer like
Speaker 7: I was.
Speaker 3: For sure forty years understood that's not his job now though.
Speaker 7: No, But he was an expert on Russia and the
Speaker 7: Middle East and the Middle East. He brings a credibility
Speaker 7: and a depth of knowledge, and frankly, it's not a
Speaker 7: bad idea to use all the assets you've got. Yes,
Speaker 7: I detected in your question a bit of surprise that
Speaker 7: a CIA director would be engaged in what is, frankly diplomacy.
Speaker 7: But when you've got when you're dealing with a situation
Speaker 7: like the US is dealing with in the Middle East,
Speaker 7: you want all the assets you have to be working
Speaker 7: full out to try to make things better. And Bill
Speaker 7: Burhams has a lot of credibility in the region. He
Speaker 7: knows it well, and I'm glad he's all in.
Speaker 3: Ambassador free. The Wall Street Journal is reporting today pretty
Speaker 3: remarkable when you consider the worries that many have had
Speaker 3: about a second or third front opening, that Israel's intelligence
Speaker 3: services are preparing to go throughout the region, if not
Speaker 3: around the world, to kill, to assassinate Hamas leaders, setting
Speaker 3: the stage as the Journal rights for a year's long
Speaker 3: campaign to find those responsible for the October attack. That
Speaker 3: means hunting down people in Lebanon, in Turkey and Cutter,
Speaker 3: maybe even Russia, knowing Israel's history with assassinations, particularly against
Speaker 3: Hamas leaders that have even include a remote control rifle
Speaker 3: at one point to kill a nuclear scientist in Iran.
Speaker 3: How worried does that make you about a second or
Speaker 3: third front opening.
Speaker 7: Israel was attacked by Hamas. Hamas is not a government.
Speaker 7: Hamas is a terrorist group, and its brutality was on display.
Speaker 7: If you asked me what of my preference, I would
Speaker 7: rather have Israel engaged in targeted, discrete actions rather than
Speaker 7: wholesale bombing, which kills lots of civilians. Israel's options aren't good.
Speaker 7: The United States has rightly been pushing the Israelis to
Speaker 7: up its game with respect to the Gaza military operations
Speaker 7: and not create so much death and destruction, So we
Speaker 7: cannot tell the Israelis at the same time to act
Speaker 7: in a precise manner and then not act in a
Speaker 7: precise manner against Amas. Amas is an enemy of all.
Speaker 7: I'd rather have the Israelis focused on a legitimate target
Speaker 7: than going after targets in Gaza which end up with
Speaker 7: a lot of innocent Palestinians dead, displaced, or injured.
Speaker 1: How about that.
Speaker 3: I only have a minute left, Ambassador. I don't want
Speaker 3: to rush you out here, but the New York Times
Speaker 3: meantime is reporting that Israel actually possessed Hamas's detailed attack
Speaker 3: plan yes October seven for more than a year, decided
Speaker 3: it wouldn't likely become reality. To what extent is this
Speaker 3: an intelligence failure?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 7: It is a big intelligence failure. I am sadly familiar
Speaker 7: with instances in which intelligence analysts have correctly discerned an
Speaker 7: adversary's intentions, only to be ignored by the system. I've
Speaker 7: seen this. I have some personal experience with this from
Speaker 7: my own career. It happens it was a failure because
Speaker 7: the intelligence assessments, according to the New York Times, and
Speaker 7: the article felt right to me. According to that article,
Speaker 7: the intelligence assessments coming up alided with a preset series
Speaker 7: of judgments and prejudices from the Israeli establishment that Hamas
Speaker 7: was incapable of conducting such a such an operation, and
Speaker 7: that Hamas was intimidated by Israel. Yes, this was an
Speaker 7: error of judgment. I've seen these errors before, including in
Speaker 7: my own government.
Speaker 3: Always a fascinating conversation with the Ambassador Daniel Freed. We
Speaker 3: thank you as always. Have a great weekend.
Speaker 5: Sir.
Speaker 3: This is sound On. I'm Joe Matthew, only on Bloomberg.
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Speaker 3: George Santos expelled from Congress Earlier today. We brought you
Speaker 3: the details a bit earlier. We're going to dive into
Speaker 3: this a bit more because there are a lot of
Speaker 3: questions about what happens next to this seat, and you
Speaker 3: better believe that Bloomberg is all over that story. Santos
Speaker 3: expelled from Congress after tumultuous year of lies. I read
Speaker 3: on the terminal and Simone Foxman is taking this a
Speaker 3: step further to understand what's going to happen next. As
Speaker 3: Kathy help Will prepares for a special election, she's with
Speaker 3: me here in New York's Moment's great to see you,
Speaker 3: Thank you for coming back, Thanks to tactors today. The
Speaker 3: story yesterday was Andrew Cuomo. Today it's another guy who's
Speaker 3: considered a troublemaker by many. George Santos, You've got a
Speaker 3: special election that you're going to be covering here. It
Speaker 3: looks like soon the governor has ten days to deliver
Speaker 3: the proclamation, yes.
Speaker 8: And then we have seventy to eighty days from that day.
Speaker 8: So overall we're looking probably going to see a special
Speaker 8: election sometime mid to late February. Okay, but you know
Speaker 8: it's going to be an election where there's going to
Speaker 8: be a lot of national dollars rolling in. We see
Speaker 8: this is a tightly contested election, and I think it's
Speaker 8: also a first test for the Republicans, who were able
Speaker 8: to pick up quite a few seats in New York
Speaker 8: back in twenty twenty two. That was really a surprise
Speaker 8: and that was a key bit of what propelled them
Speaker 8: to the majority in the House. So this is going
Speaker 8: to be an important election.
Speaker 3: Well, Democrats seem awfully optimistic about this. They think this
Speaker 3: is already over, We're going to flip that seat. Did
Speaker 3: it become more difficult for them to do that having
Speaker 3: George Santos removed a year before the election, giving Republicans
Speaker 3: that much lead time to kind of reframe what happened.
Speaker 8: You know, it's interesting because initially they have probably the
Speaker 8: candidate with the most name recognition in tom Swazi. He
Speaker 8: did represent that district before twenty twenty two. He's there,
Speaker 8: he exists, he's lowed people know who he is. He
Speaker 8: by the way, did not run for that seat in
Speaker 8: twenty twenty two in order to take on the governor
Speaker 8: and that was a failed campaign. So now he's back
Speaker 8: on the Republican side. There just aren't as many visible
Speaker 8: challengers that are really super well known, and so I
Speaker 8: think it gives the Democrats an edge in the near
Speaker 8: chure that said, you know, do you come back in
Speaker 8: November and have a replay of this race is probably
Speaker 8: the case. So so the calculus stair is a little
Speaker 8: bit less clear.
Speaker 3: You surprised to see the numbers on this. A majority
Speaker 3: of Republicans, including the leadership, voted to keep him in.
Speaker 8: Well, there was there was a momentum gaining pace right
Speaker 8: ahead of this vote. We really weren't sure which way
Speaker 8: it was going to go, and it seemed very obvious
Speaker 8: earlier in the week that you know, he was going
Speaker 8: to be expelled. Then kind of the momentum shifted, but
Speaker 8: finally at the end, you know, the thing is these seats,
Speaker 8: each seat is crucial to kind of keeping the Republicans
Speaker 8: dominant in the House. And so you have a guy
Speaker 8: who lies very loudly. He was already going to be
Speaker 8: on his way out at the end of twenty two.
Speaker 8: Maybe people were holding their nose and saying.
Speaker 3: Okay, well we you know, were doing some speculating earlier,
Speaker 3: and you probably have done a bit yourself, maybe if
Speaker 3: only thinking quietly about what might be now for him.
Speaker 3: First of all, it's going to court, right, do we
Speaker 3: know what it looks like for George Santos with the
Speaker 3: year ahead might include in terms of seeing him in
Speaker 3: the throes of legal struggles, or will he be free
Speaker 3: to write a book, to go do reality TV or
Speaker 3: what might be next.
Speaker 8: I mean, I can speculate here. He says he's going
Speaker 8: to be pretty loud. He's going to name names. I
Speaker 8: think we should.
Speaker 3: Expect someone to start a Twitter show or something, you know.
Speaker 8: But he's become the sort of counter culture figure, right.
Speaker 3: That's why someone's got to give him money to do something.
Speaker 8: I imagine I still.
Speaker 3: Say Dancing with the Stars, but I mean it could
Speaker 3: be a book, it could be an expose of some
Speaker 3: sort whatever. He's not going to be sitting home alone.
Speaker 8: I'm guessing, no, I don't. I don't think so. But
Speaker 8: he is going to have to face what looks like
Speaker 8: a pretty serious allegations and I'm sure we will hear
Speaker 8: the play by play that will be the news that
Speaker 8: Santis is involved, you know, and you never know. I
Speaker 8: think the establishment has very much written him off. They
Speaker 8: don't think he has that much to say, but sure
Speaker 8: we'll see. I guess people will.
Speaker 3: Pay for crazy things. Plus, America loves a comeback story.
Speaker 7: I don't do.
Speaker 8: I mean, well, we have, you know, the comeback story
Speaker 8: in potentially Nasau County and parts of Queen's Tom Swase.
Speaker 8: So admittedly he's never really truly.
Speaker 3: Gone away, so you included the Swazi tweet in your story.
Speaker 3: He writes, this is a much needed step in our
Speaker 3: journey to repair a broken system. We must prove beyond
Speaker 3: our petty partisan performative finger pointing and address the real
Speaker 3: problems NASA on Queen's residents face. Let's fix this to
Speaker 3: your point. He's here, he's allowed. And so there are a.
Speaker 8: Few others, you know, there are a few others. Anna
Speaker 8: Kaplan was one a lot of people were speaking about
Speaker 8: in the party, potentially considering Austin Chang. He's a businessman,
Speaker 8: healthcare owns or CEO of a healthcare business. Robert Zimmerman
Speaker 8: who lost to Santos. And then, you know, as I
Speaker 8: was saying, the Republican side is just a a lot
Speaker 8: less clearer because the key guy who's been thought of,
Speaker 8: as you know, possibly having enough name recognition is Jack
Speaker 8: Martin's and he's made some statements that he doesn't necessarily
Speaker 8: want to go to Congress.
Speaker 3: All right, so we're drafting you right now. Okay, I
Speaker 3: don't know this, but you've just been drafted to come
Speaker 3: back on a regular basis and talk to us about
Speaker 3: what's going on in this race and what's happening up
Speaker 3: you're here on sound On. When we call, you'll know
Speaker 3: who we are, of course, Simon Foxman. Great to see
Speaker 3: you again, Thanks and great reporting this week. I'm Joe
Speaker 3: Matthew in New York, where I'm rubbing elbows with people
Speaker 3: like Simon Foxman. We want to bring in the voice
Speaker 3: of Denver Riggleman, the former US Congressman from Virginia, former
Speaker 3: Republican congressman in his view, which always fascinates me, on
Speaker 3: what's happening here inside the House of Representatives. He's co
Speaker 3: author of the breach, the untold story of the investigation
Speaker 3: into January sixth, of course, an investigation and a committee
Speaker 3: that he was deeply involved in. Denver, It's great to
Speaker 3: see you. Welcome back to Bloomberg sound On. Should George
Speaker 3: Santos have been fired today?
Speaker 9: Sure? I mean listen, yeah, of course. I mean it's
Speaker 9: good that some Republicans came on. I know that leadership
Speaker 9: did sort of support him not being you know, summarily
Speaker 9: drummed out of Congress. But if I was there, I
Speaker 9: would have voted to get him out of there as
Speaker 9: quickly as possible. I mean, this is a liar, a grifter,
Speaker 9: somebody who's you know, mismanaged money, but really somebody who
Speaker 9: has no place actually representing the American people. So I
Speaker 9: think today was a great vote.
Speaker 3: So what do you make of the leadership on this?
Speaker 3: It was across the board Speaker Johnson, Steve's goalie, majority leader,
Speaker 3: even Elista Phonic voted to keep him in his seat.
Speaker 3: Was that a statement on due process the fact that
Speaker 3: he was not convicted of a crime, or was that
Speaker 3: a Republican leadership trying to keep as many seats in
Speaker 3: play as possible.
Speaker 9: That's just trying to keep seats in play. This is
Speaker 9: a it's a one in zero's calculation. And also you
Speaker 9: have individuals who are supporting somebody like the party leader
Speaker 9: and the presumptive nominee, Donald Trump, who really has a
Speaker 9: problem with the truth. Also, who's under what ninety one
Speaker 9: counts now, you know, for specific types of charges based
Speaker 9: on a multitude you know, offenses. So I think you
Speaker 9: just have a Republican party and you know, me being
Speaker 9: a part of it. It's sad to say, but it
Speaker 9: seems like more than a majority. Even if you look
Speaker 9: at the January sixth vote to object to the electors
Speaker 9: more than the majority, or more worried about their own job,
Speaker 9: or supporting the party leader, or actually voting in a
Speaker 9: way that might protect their own self interest going forward,
Speaker 9: rather than what's best for the American people. And I
Speaker 9: think it's an indictment on where they're at with their integrity,
Speaker 9: their morality, and actually they think most of us are stupid.
Speaker 9: And I think many many people are looking at George
Speaker 9: Santos and saying, this guy is such a sleeves ball,
Speaker 9: such an underperformer in the American dream, and such an
Speaker 9: individual that nobody wants a round, that he needs to
Speaker 9: be out of there. But these guys, they would rather
Speaker 9: vote for somebody so they can keep that some majority
Speaker 9: going forward.
Speaker 3: Boy, well, that's quite an answer. I'm really that's why
Speaker 3: we called you. I'm just taken by you know how
Speaker 3: hard it is to be elected to Congress. You know
Speaker 3: how hard it is to join the Republican conference in
Speaker 3: the House. How does something like this happen to begin with?
Speaker 9: I think it's a slow to scent into madness. I mean,
Speaker 9: if you look at my guess is when they're looking
Speaker 9: at polling and fundraising, right, they're looking at polling in
Speaker 9: their districts. You're looking at fundraising in their districts. They're
Speaker 9: looking at all the cross tabs, all the things that
Speaker 9: the people are worried about in their base and their districts.
Speaker 9: They are much more worried about being elected than what's
Speaker 9: and then doing what's right. And I think I had
Speaker 9: to grapple with that, Joe, like I had to grapple
Speaker 9: with that, like taking a vote for the conference, which
Speaker 9: you know might be at the best not a great vote,
Speaker 9: or saying, hey, do I have to listen to my
Speaker 9: base on this when I think that they've gone nuts,
Speaker 9: when they actually think the election is stolen or they
Speaker 9: believe that there's a cupal of you know, globalists that
Speaker 9: are actually harvesting children in basements. I mean, do I
Speaker 9: really want to go along with this? And they said yes.
Speaker 9: So I think the GOP is going down where they're
Speaker 9: a fantasy based party. And once that happens, it's very
Speaker 9: difficult to have any real policy discussions. And I think
Speaker 9: that's why you're saying Congress being so ineffective, is that
Speaker 9: you know, you have a lot of people in Congress
Speaker 9: now that think the Word of the Rings is a documentary. Uh,
Speaker 9: And I think that's that's going to be a problem
Speaker 9: going forward.
Speaker 3: Well, look to that end, George Santos says he's going
Speaker 3: to take as many folks with him as he can.
Speaker 3: That he's surrounded by other members of Congress who have
Speaker 3: done things that he knows about that could get them fired.
Speaker 3: Just talk about, you know, setting precedents here. Is this
Speaker 3: going to be the new weapon? Everybody's going to get
Speaker 3: an expulsion vote when they make somebody angry?
Speaker 9: No, I, I you know that's a good question, actually,
Speaker 9: But as far as George Santos is concerned, I don't
Speaker 9: think that all. I don't think Georg George Santo has
Speaker 9: anybody else that he can actually bring down. He's not
Speaker 9: going to have receipts. The guy's an inveterate liar, he's pathological.
Speaker 9: He doesn't even know who he is. He's a con man.
Speaker 9: So who cares what he says? Right, it's like a
Speaker 9: you know, my grandfather said it best. You know, it's
Speaker 9: like a it's like a fart blown in the wind. Right,
Speaker 9: That's what George Santos is. So anybody who's taken this
Speaker 9: guy seriously really has an issue. Don't take him seriously.
Speaker 9: He's an idiot, and I think people need to start
Speaker 9: realizing that it's okay to call an and Edie.
Speaker 3: We're going to find out how Denver Riggleman really feels
Speaker 3: at some point here, I mean, coming off the poop
Speaker 3: map last night in the debate. Then I don't know
Speaker 3: how to keep up with you on this, but I
Speaker 3: understand where you going here. What is Speaker Johnson with
Speaker 3: everything that you just said, have to look forward to
Speaker 3: in the new year because we're talking about another cr
Speaker 3: potentially now, if not a government shut down, is that
Speaker 3: the one that gets him fired? Will he joined Kevin
Speaker 3: McCarthy in the cafeteria.
Speaker 9: My head here, in my head, there could be a
Speaker 9: far right revolt. I mean, listen, crazy is very hard
Speaker 9: to negotiate with. And I've always said, you know, crazy
Speaker 9: has more energy than sanity, and you know Mike doesn't
Speaker 9: actually based on what he's done in the past and
Speaker 9: what's coming out about Mike Johnson, I know him. I
Speaker 9: met Mike. He's a nice guy to talk to in person,
Speaker 9: but he's also like to flirt with the insanity of
Speaker 9: the far right. And if he doesn't go down that
Speaker 9: line after the promises that he's made or what he's
Speaker 9: identified himself to be crazy again. It's hard to negotiate
Speaker 9: with and there's a lot of energy there. It's white hot.
Speaker 9: Insanity does not have as much energy as crazy. So
Speaker 9: he better buck up because what I think is going
Speaker 9: to happen, you know, is that the far right individuals
Speaker 9: that are trying to satisfy their base, they're going to
Speaker 9: have to scream and yell at him for a while,
Speaker 9: and he's going to have to manage that.
Speaker 3: We heard yesterday though that the Freedom Caucus, Andy Biggs
Speaker 3: and Scott Perry are pulling back on demands for steep
Speaker 3: discretionary spending cuts. It looks like we're going to have
Speaker 3: the same top line number if they ever do get
Speaker 3: a budget that was hammered out in the debt ceiling
Speaker 3: deal that led to Kevin McCarthy's firing. What must be
Speaker 3: going through his.
Speaker 1: Head right now?
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, you know, McCarthy, listen, you negotiate with
Speaker 9: terrorists that aren't that bright, that's what you get. And
Speaker 9: I think that when I talk about political terrorists, my
Speaker 9: friend and I think the Yeah. So I think the
Speaker 9: other side of that is that hypocrisy, you know, is
Speaker 9: the number one thing in politics, and integrity and being
Speaker 9: elected are sometimes morally are mutually exclusive. And really those
Speaker 9: are phone call from Donald Trump. That's just Biggs and
Speaker 9: Scott Perry trying to keep Trump happy, making sure they're
Speaker 9: in lockstep going through twenty four. I mean, they're not
Speaker 9: doing that in the vacuum. So that's really what I
Speaker 9: think that is, is that's a political calculation because really,
Speaker 9: you know, they're crazy, but they're not crazy enough not
Speaker 9: to get paid and not to get elected and not
Speaker 9: to be in Trump's quiver.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know how we get a border security
Speaker 3: agreement here. I know they're working on one. Considering the
Speaker 3: environment that we're in and the Congress that you're describing,
Speaker 3: should I just stop asking people about funding for Israel
Speaker 3: and Ukraine because the clock's tick and we're getting nowhere
Speaker 3: on this.
Speaker 1: It seems like.
Speaker 9: We are getting nowhere on this, And I think again
Speaker 9: to go to the fundamental I think, goodness, that's pretty
Speaker 9: a strong word, but I've used some strong words, but
Speaker 9: I think I think it goes down to really the
Speaker 9: fundamental problem in Congress that it's ineffective because nobody's actually
Speaker 9: making decisions for the American people or what's best in
Speaker 9: foreign policy, and you have individuals who you know, barely
Speaker 9: graduate high school or can't tell the difference, you know,
Speaker 9: between a conspiracy theory right in a cafeteria. I mean,
Speaker 9: that's the truth of it, that you have those kind
Speaker 9: of people making decisions. I think that's what scares me
Speaker 9: and scares a lot of the American people, is that
Speaker 9: the baseline is crazy. If that's the baseline, it's going
Speaker 9: to be difficult to do things like fund Israel or Ukraine,
Speaker 9: or to even have a reasonable debate about it.
Speaker 3: Wow, well, okay, in that world, then you project a
Speaker 3: year out, Democrats take the House, I do.
Speaker 9: I think the Democrats take twenty to thirty seats. I think,
Speaker 9: I really do. And by the way, I think it's
Speaker 9: gonna be one of the craziest years we've ever seen
Speaker 9: twenty twenty four. I think there's going to be violence.
Speaker 9: But I also believe that the Democrats could take the
Speaker 9: House and Trump could win the presidency at the same time.
Speaker 9: So that's that's where I think that is a real possibility.
Speaker 3: Political violence.
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, I think by spring of twenty twenty four
Speaker 9: and no, and people forget about Pelosi. I think Paul Pelosi.
Speaker 9: They forget about individuals stinking in the homes. I believe it,
Speaker 9: think so right. I think those types of you know,
Speaker 9: isolated incidences, we think that are isolated. I think they
Speaker 9: could become more common place. And that scares me because
Speaker 9: people think this is a battle against good and evil.
Speaker 9: If you have people who believe this is an apocalyptic battle,
Speaker 9: I think that's going to be a problem.
Speaker 3: Glad you could join us today. Former Congressman Denver Riggleman,
Speaker 3: the Republican from Virginia, free to speak, and boy he
Speaker 3: uses the opportunity. It's good to speak with you. Story
Speaker 3: as we head into a weekend with more madness in
Speaker 3: the house, George Santos is fired and we don't know
Speaker 3: where we're going next. Only here on sound on This
Speaker 3: is Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: live weekdays at one eastern.
Speaker 2: On Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Business app, or listen on demand wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 4: On this vote, the ya's are three hundred eleven, the
Speaker 4: nays are one hundred and fourteen, with two recorded as present.
Speaker 4: Two thirds voting in the affirmative. The resolution is adopted,
Speaker 4: an emotion to reconsider is laid upon the table. The
Speaker 4: Clerk will notify the Governor of the State of New
Speaker 4: York of the action of the House under Clause five
Speaker 4: D of Rule twenty. The Chair announces to the House that,
Speaker 4: in light of the expulsion of the gentleman from New York,
Speaker 4: mister Santos, the whole number of the House is now
Speaker 4: four hundred and thirty four.
Speaker 3: Four hundred thirty four, right back where we were two
Speaker 3: weeks ago. George Santos packing his bags now. And look,
Speaker 3: the Republican leadership did not vote to expel George Santos,
Speaker 3: and a number of Republican members took that same position,
Speaker 3: including the Congressman from Michigan, who we're going to talk
Speaker 3: with right now. Bill Heizenga, released the following statement after
Speaker 3: voting against the expulsion resolution. The top line says it
Speaker 3: all quote. The accusations against mister Santos are very serious
Speaker 3: and credible. While I find his behavior appalling, the Congressman
Speaker 3: rights every American deserves their day in court. Congressman Bill Hayzenga, welcome.
Speaker 3: Glad you could join us today, Sir, what precedent was
Speaker 3: just set.
Speaker 10: Yeah, Joe, thanks for having me, and I think a
Speaker 10: bad precedent. Frankly, as I had indicated in my release,
Speaker 10: you know, we have not in the modern era ever
Speaker 10: expelled anybody who has not been convicted of a crime,
Speaker 10: not accused, not even having a really strong trail. And
Speaker 10: let's be clear, I don't think George Santos is, let
Speaker 10: me be charitable, a high quality individual. All right, Let's
Speaker 10: let's leave it at that. But at the end of
Speaker 10: the day, I'm afraid that this is a slippery slope
Speaker 10: to the further and deepening politicization and and and weaponization
Speaker 10: of the processes that we've seen here in Washington, d C.
Speaker 10: And so look, we know if you look at individuals
Speaker 10: like Charlie Wrangell and others who have had serious serious
Speaker 10: issues including being I mean tax fraud and Charlie wrangles circumstances,
Speaker 10: they were not removed from office. I believe it is
Speaker 10: only when the courts had ruled that is when the
Speaker 10: House should take actions. Otherwise it's up to the voters
Speaker 10: in each of those districts.
Speaker 3: Well, of course, these allegations were wild. When the Ethics
Speaker 3: Committee report came out it felt like more than allegations,
Speaker 3: which I know made a number of members feel like
Speaker 3: they had no choice. The last line of your statement
Speaker 3: is when we should read as well as congressmen, you write,
Speaker 3: in America, even dirt bags deserve due process. The House
Speaker 3: could have trouble with dirt bags in office. Congressman, do
Speaker 3: you also empathize with the members who wanted them gone?
Speaker 10: Yeah, I certainly do, and I understand it. I promised
Speaker 10: one of my Ethics Committee friends that I would read
Speaker 10: through the entire report, which I did last night, made notes,
Speaker 10: made notations in the report. I think it's very credible
Speaker 10: with what they have accused him of and the evidence
Speaker 10: that they have and that they're presenting. But also they're
Speaker 10: very clear that there's FBI involvement, there's a Department of Justice,
Speaker 10: and all of this has to be turned over to
Speaker 10: the Attorney General as well. And as distasteful as he is,
Speaker 10: and the actions, as distasteful as they are and very
Speaker 10: possibly potentially illegal, that that that needs to rise to
Speaker 10: such a level. I mean, this is the most serious
Speaker 10: thing we can do in the House of Representatives, because
Speaker 10: we have just taken three quarters of a million people's
Speaker 10: voice off the voting board. You know, they no longer
Speaker 10: have their voice being heard in Congress, and that is
Speaker 10: a very very serious thing. And I understand. I've had
Speaker 10: extensive conversations with my with my very good friends from
Speaker 10: from New York and Long Island and in that area
Speaker 10: that are having to live with him in that space
Speaker 10: and in the media and all those things. But I
Speaker 10: also know that there has been a deepening of the
Speaker 10: weaponization of the processes and the policies of government over
Speaker 10: the last few years. And frankly, I think expulsion and
Speaker 10: impeachment have become sort of the new censure. It used
Speaker 10: to be in the day in fact that was here
Speaker 10: and when Charlie Rangel was centered, it was serious. I mean,
Speaker 10: it was somber, it was it was really heartfelt, And
Speaker 10: now it just seems like this has become far more commonplace.
Speaker 10: And frankly, I for once, I'd like to have a
Speaker 10: boring week in Washington where we actually legislated. That would
Speaker 10: be helpful. We haven't been doing a whole lot of
Speaker 10: that lately, and it's all been more personal and vendettas
Speaker 10: and pinched fingers and massive egos, it seems. And we
Speaker 10: got to get back to serving the American people.
Speaker 3: I have been asking Congressman, if this leads to a
Speaker 3: new era of expulsion votes, that's going to be to
Speaker 3: your point, that's going to be the new weapon. Every
Speaker 3: time somebody says something that someone doesn't like, we go
Speaker 3: through the expulsion vote, watering things down. You could argue
Speaker 3: the way impeachment has been watered down. But it's important
Speaker 3: to note you're down to four hundred and thirty four members. Again,
Speaker 3: you've got a very slim margin as a Republican majority,
Speaker 3: and you testified before the Budget Committee recently in support
Speaker 3: of your Fiscal Commission Act save Social Security from a
Speaker 3: massive cut in the next decade. How do you get
Speaker 3: anything like that done on a serious level when it
Speaker 3: comes to policy and spending with such a thin majority.
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, here's the real truth of the matter is
Speaker 10: something like that is not going to happen on a
Speaker 10: partisan vote line. That has to be bipartisan. It has
Speaker 10: to be by Cameron, meaning both the House and the
Speaker 10: Senate have to agree on a direction. And that's why
Speaker 10: I'm actually very very encouraged by what happened earlier this
Speaker 10: week with our hearing in the Budget Committee, my bill,
Speaker 10: and I'm paired up with Scott Peters, a Democrat from California.
Speaker 10: We chair something called the BFF, the Bipartisan Fiscal Forum,
Speaker 10: and we're very focused in on our debt and our
Speaker 10: spending and the deficits that have been created. There was
Speaker 10: another bill that had been introduced by Ed Case, a
Speaker 10: Democrat out of Hawaii, and Steve Womack, who is a
Speaker 10: Congressman out of Arkansas. That bill was discussed as well,
Speaker 10: but it was really more broad themed than that. And
Speaker 10: then after us, the next panel that came in was
Speaker 10: Mitt Romney and Joe Manchin, and they have introduced language
Speaker 10: in the Senate that's modeled on the bill that Scott
Speaker 10: and I introduced, and we've been working very closely with them.
Speaker 10: And here's what I do know, in a hyperpartisan moment
Speaker 10: era right now, this is going to be maybe even
Speaker 10: harder than what it had been back in the eighties
Speaker 10: when Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill and others were working
Speaker 10: on these issues. I also know that with our debt
Speaker 10: thirty three point eight trillion dollars with a T, and
Speaker 10: the interest on that debt now outstripping what we are
Speaker 10: spending on every program that deals with women and children,
Speaker 10: almost eclipsing every dollar that we spend on the Defense department.
Speaker 10: It is crowding out that interest payment is crowding out
Speaker 10: our other priorities. And that's what I'm hoping is going
Speaker 10: to allow Republicans and Democrats to get together and say,
Speaker 10: you know what, enough is enough. We've got to figure
Speaker 10: out how we save this system. Because this isn't a
Speaker 10: Republican saying this or a Democrat saying this. This is
Speaker 10: the trustees of those of the Trust Fund for Social
Speaker 10: Security that says in nine years, if we do not
Speaker 10: have a solution to this, there will be an automatic
Speaker 10: twenty three percent cut to every single payment. And guess what,
Speaker 10: I might be okay, you might be okay when in
Speaker 10: our later years. I turned fifty five next month, I
Speaker 10: got a little bit of runway here. But guess what,
Speaker 10: I went to high school with people that.
Speaker 3: There're still a young man, congressman, and you're grabbing the
Speaker 3: third rail. I appreciate your coming on to talk to
Speaker 3: us about it, including your vote today. Bill Heisenga. I'm
Speaker 3: Joe Matthew, This is Bloomberg. Thanks for listening to the
Speaker 3: Sound on podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't
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Speaker 3: DC at one pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com