1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,199 Speaker 1: This is the best of Newtsworld. Coming up, my interview 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:12,239 Speaker 1: with doctor Henry Kissinger on this episode of Newtsworld. I 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: am honored and delighted to have an old friend, a mentor, 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: somebody I've learned from for almost I guess, half a century, 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: doctor Henry Kissinger. He is one of the most remarkable 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: people in modern America. At ninety nine, he has written 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: a new book which I recommend to everyone, called Leadership 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: six Studies in World Strategy, and it's a sign of 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: his extraordinary life that each of the leaders is somebody 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: he's known personally. Henry, thank you very much for joining 11 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: me on Newtsworld. 12 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: You and I have known each other for many decades, 13 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: and I have expected you're thinking and considered you. It's 14 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: strate teaching thinking, and then it's what the country importantly means. 15 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: So I'm happy to be here with you. 16 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: I want to start at a personal level before we 17 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: get to the book, which as you know, I've written 18 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: a review of as a newsletter and urged everyone to 19 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: look at because it's so remarkable. But first I want 20 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: to establish a couple of things. When you and your 21 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: family fled Germany to escape the Nazi regime, you were 22 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: very young, Did you have any notion that you'd have 23 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: an extraordinary life like this? 24 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: But when we lived Germany, I had just turned fifteen. 25 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: We were living in that to Germany, in which be 26 00:01:54,640 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 2: Jewish we had no legal rights, and Hitler youth could 27 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: beat me up in the streets if that was their idea, 28 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: which occasionally happened. So when I came to America, I 29 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: had no idea that someday I might be Secretary of 30 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 2: State and advisor to President and senior leaders of the Congress. 31 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: But within the first months I experienced that I was 32 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 2: living in a country of democracy. And in high school 33 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: I wrote an essay that sometimes I meet people with 34 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: whom I grew up. But when I reflect that in 35 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: America I can walk on the street with my headache, 36 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: then it was needed experience of my life to get 37 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: to it. 38 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: You know, you became a naturalized citizen in nineteen forty three, 39 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: which by the way, is the year I was born, 40 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: And then you joined the army and received a bronze 41 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: star serving in Europe. When you came back, you ended 42 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: up almally becoming a faculty member at Harvard and created 43 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: quite a name for yourself as a young man with 44 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: several very seminal books. 45 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: We that was a selphamater di. But I had to 46 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: go through college again because before the war I had 47 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: been working in the shaving brosh factory and gun to 48 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: school at night, and so I didn't make it to 49 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: college until after the war. 50 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: Were you able to use the GI bill after the war? 51 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: I used the gip that I couldn't make a florid in. 52 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: Otherwise, that's great. What college were you at? I was 53 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: at Harvard, So you've had a narrow educational experience getting 54 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: educated and then teaching at Harvard. 55 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: I didn't know there were any repugnicants. 56 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: It's always interested me as I think you may know. 57 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: I was a Rockefeller state chairman in nineteen sixty eight. 58 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: In many ways, your rise came through Nelson Rockefeller before 59 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon. How did that occur? 60 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 2: Nelson Ackafella was especially assistant due President disnow for what 61 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:39,679 Speaker 2: it's called psychological strategy at that time, but it's today. 62 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: The National Security Council was divided into two pods, the 63 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: National Security Council that dealt with its long range planning 64 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: and the Psychological Strategy Board that was supposed to think 65 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: of the future and the Exacological Strategy Board was more 66 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 2: focused and he was focused on immediate topic. That division 67 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: was dropped after Eisnall. So Racafeller was doing a report 68 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: on the future of the international work system after the 69 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 2: Summit meetings of nineteen fifty or whenever they took place, 70 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: and he invited me to participate and to help draft 71 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: the report. That it's what started our relationship in friendship. 72 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: So even though you were close to Rockefeller, when Nixon 73 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: became president, he turned to you and brought you in 74 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: his senior thinker. I think in the area he most 75 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: cared about, which was national security and foreign policy. That 76 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: was sort of a tribute to you to be able 77 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: to bridge both those personalities. 78 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 2: It was total surprise to be invited. I had never 79 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: met Nix, and it was very courageous of him to 80 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 2: take somebody that had been with the opposition to him 81 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: and then I as Racife. But I should do this, 82 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: he said, Remember he's taking a much greater is with 83 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: you than you with him. 84 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: But it worked out well and you developed I think 85 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: one of the most unique, almost symbiotic relationships in American 86 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: White house history. Somehow you and Nixon could think through 87 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: things together and then could jointly force it on the 88 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: bureaucracy in a way that is really remarkable. 89 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: Well, that's very correct description he and I made every 90 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: morning when we were in town, went most mornings, and 91 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: Nixon liked to think, I mean insisted on thinking on 92 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: an answering the question where are we going and where 93 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: are we trying to come out? And he puts it 94 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: there and take copious notes and we then implement them 95 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: in the bureaucracy, which. 96 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: I think other presidents would tell you as an extraordinary achievement, 97 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: because the bureaucracy is often deeply resistant to whatever merely 98 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: elected officials want, even if it's the president. I have 99 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: to ask you, you had two parallel extraordinary things going on. 100 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: One was the negotiations in Paris, which people have often 101 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: forgotten how intricately Nixon approached trying to find a way 102 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: to get to peace with honor, which was then undone 103 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,679 Speaker 1: by the Congress in nineteen seventy five. But you really 104 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: managed this constant negotiation with the Vietnamese and got a 105 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize for in nineteen seventy three. At the 106 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: same time, you are the lead figure in opening up China. 107 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: How would you rate those two and compare those the 108 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: remarkable achievements, and you were doing both at the same time. 109 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: Ending divor in Vietnam was a necessity in order to 110 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: help yield the divisions in the country, and it was 111 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: a necessity or so that our allies did not see 112 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: America defeated in such a major effort. It was something 113 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: that they had to be cleaned away. Opening to China 114 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: created new strategic options because up to them, China and 115 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union, as Russia wasn't called, presented a united club, 116 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: which are we the West and the Democracy. By opening 117 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 2: to China, they became gradually split, and it gave us 118 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: an opportunity to balance them against each other. And our 119 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: instructions to the bureaucracy were positioned yourself in such a 120 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: way that we are closer to both Russia and China 121 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: than they are to each other. And that for about 122 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: two three years created a considerable stability in the relations 123 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: with both China and Russia that it is now to integrated. 124 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: Now when I say stability, the basic position of the 125 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: mixing period was that if Russia transgressed, it's a point 126 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: we would resist and we would know them. We're resisted, 127 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: and on two occasions we went on alert, and we'd 128 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: stopped awards in the Middle East that had been started 129 00:10:50,920 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: with irrational aggression. So while conducting a complicated diplomacy, the 130 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 2: next administration also conducted a complicated strategic effort that maintained 131 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 2: and strengthened the balance of power in the world while 132 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: moving to its speeds in Vietnam and in the end, 133 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: even beginning to eat relations with Russia. 134 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: Did the opening with China strengthen your hand in Moscow 135 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: and make it easier to work with the Russians. 136 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: It strengthened our hand enormously. And one demonstration of this 137 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: is before I went to China, we had attempted to 138 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: it's got a Soviet interests in a summit with mixed 139 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 2: and the answer was that we needed to help some 140 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: Soviet purposes and burnin and other issues before they consider 141 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: a summit. Well we know that answer. But within two 142 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: months of our opening to China, they came back and 143 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 2: offered as an unconditional summit in Moscow, in which the 144 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: whole which was the beginning of some strategic agreements, arms 145 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: control agreements, from the limitation of the major weapons of. 146 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: Destruction, hi This is newt and my new book, March 147 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: the Majority, the Real Story of the Republican Revolution. I 148 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: offer strategies and insights for everyday citizens and for season politicians. 149 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: It's both a guide for political success and for winning 150 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: back the Majority in twenty twenty four. March to the 151 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: Majority outlines the sixteen year campaign to write the Contract 152 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: with America. Explains how we elected the first Republican House 153 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: majority in forty years, in how we worked with President 154 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton to pass major reforms, including four consecutive balance budgets. 155 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: March to the Majority tells the behind the scenes story 156 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: of how we got it done. Go to ginglishtree sixty 157 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: dot com slash book and order your copy now. Order 158 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: it today at gingishtree sixty dot com slash book. Part 159 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: of the reason that I wanted to start with your 160 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: own personal experiences that one of the things you do 161 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: that amazes me is you're a great historian. Your original 162 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: work was in his Way Street and you've lived history. 163 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: So you were able in this new book, which I 164 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: really do recommend everybody on leadership, you're able both to 165 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: talk about people you had met and worked with personally, 166 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: but to bring to it sort of the dual perspective 167 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: of the academic and the actual practitioner. And I'm curious 168 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: you pick Conrad Adenauer, Charles de Gaulle, Richard Nixon, Nwar 169 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: sadat leek one, you and Margaret Thatcher. You know there 170 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: are many other people that you knew and worked with. 171 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: What led you to pick these six? 172 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: These six working in how of cooperation? And that would 173 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: say all except the governing and democratic states. And that 174 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: person was in leader who made peace with Israel, so 175 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: he lived in that wild And I'm desct trying to 176 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: describe the elements that are needed in strengthening the international order. 177 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: And that was the major purpose of this book. I'm 178 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 2: thinking of writing now another book about dealing with adversaries. 179 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: It's a less elevating job than building an international order, 180 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: although it's a necessary job. 181 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: As a child, I lived in Germany, I lived in France. 182 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: I was there when the paratroopers killed the Fourth Republic 183 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: and brought back to gaul And I read these with fascination. 184 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: And I wasn't as close to Thatcher as you were, 185 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: but she had a huge impact on the work we did, 186 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: starting with her election in nineteen seventy nine, and what 187 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: I'm struck with it is makes this book, I think, 188 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: so brilliant. You're able to take each of these leaders 189 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: and show how they had a unique strategy which fit 190 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: their particular needs and which they were able to stick 191 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: with it. I mean, in some circumstances that were really 192 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: extraordinarily difficult, and of course, in the case of anwar, 193 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: Sadati lost his life following a visionary strategy. Did it 194 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: strike you at the time you were dealing with them 195 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: how consistently strategic these six people were, or did that 196 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: occur later as you look back and thought about it. 197 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: To some extent, it occurred to me while I was 198 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: dealing with him that they would exceieve me unusual people. 199 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: But the extent of their strategic thinking became clear only 200 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: with the evolution of their policies, which, as you said earlier, 201 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: they had to insist on vit V the chiaccresses in 202 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: their apposition in which they managed to impose on their societies. 203 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: You were once very generous and invited me to come 204 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: out to your farm and spent a weekend with leak one, 205 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: you and yourself, And I was really struck with how 206 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: he had learned things as a graduate student in Britain 207 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: that he then carried the whole rest of his life, 208 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: that he had found some key principles that he stuck 209 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: with and that created modern Singapore. Kind of remarkable, almost 210 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: a charisma of the intellect, if you will. 211 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: Was his belief in free markets, which no other country 212 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 2: in this region as a lit Japan, which was it 213 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: studying on it recovery, but certainly among the developing countries 214 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:14,959 Speaker 2: in Asia, its insistence on free market principles made it 215 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: possible to build up its country to this standardship. 216 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: Now as I was struck. This may be because my 217 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: childhood was so shaped by de Gaulle's return in nineteen 218 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: fifty eight. But of the six of them, it seems 219 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: to me de Gaulle is the one who has, in 220 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: a way the strongest ego and the greatest capacity for 221 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: inventing himself. From the time he has to flee France 222 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: as a trader to Vishi, France convinced Churchill and Fdr 223 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: to deal with him even though he really has no assets, 224 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 1: and has this sense of if somebody once said, if 225 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: your name is de Gaulle, you'r Charles of France, somehow 226 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: it may shape how you think about everything. But don't 227 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: you look back on that almost with a sense of 228 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: amazement that he pulled it off. 229 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 2: Well in retrospect when you consider that when he arrived 230 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: in England, he arrived really without a set of suits, 231 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: without the language. Its country had been defeated, and he 232 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: was the lowest rank in general in the French army, 233 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: and he had only been made general three weeks before, 234 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: so he could emerge from this it's the leader of 235 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: the free French. It's incredible. Churchill said to him, I'm 236 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: alone and you're alone, so we might as well work together. 237 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 2: But it leads Churchill had still a country with him, 238 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: the gall when it started in England at all, to 239 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 2: people that had been evacuated from Dunkirk and they were 240 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: free to return to friend So there was I doubt 241 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: that he had a thousand people with him at the beginning. 242 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: Well, and when he does get back, and he does 243 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: become president of the new France in the Fourth Republic 244 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: after winning the war, he then has the internal requirement 245 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: to resign because, as he says, de Gaul can't work 246 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: with the pigmies of the French political class, and at 247 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: the time he thought they'd call him back in about 248 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: eighteen months, but in fact it took about a decade. 249 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: And I had this sense with Nixon that there are 250 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: certain people who have to follow who they are, and 251 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: therefore there's actually no downside risk because they have no alternative. 252 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if that makes any sense. 253 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 2: I think that point I had elaborated it in that way, 254 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: but it is true. The difference between the Call and Nixon. 255 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: It's way was that Nixon was a great strategic figure, 256 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 2: but he did not have the Call's capacity to move 257 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: his old people. But in terms of strategic thinking, they 258 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: had great similarities, and they also got along very well 259 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 2: with each other. And at the point when Nixon was 260 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: out of office and had just been defeated in running 261 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: for governor of California too, he was sort of be 262 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 2: politically finished, the Gaul invited him to visit him in Paris, 263 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: and then their relationship was resumed when Nixon became president, 264 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 2: but that was less than a year before they called 265 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 2: it signed again, findly because he thought he hid solved 266 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 2: all the big problems and he didn't want to concentrate 267 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: on all what he considered the petty problems of day 268 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 2: to day. 269 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: Elvintor we're chatting the week that sadly Queen Elizabeth Second 270 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: passed away, and of course she has been with on occasions, 271 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: and we earlier I had done a podcast which talked 272 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 1: about her relationship with Lady Thatcher, and I've brought up 273 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: your book and the point you make about Lady Thatcher 274 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: that despite being tough and public, she was actually a 275 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: very kind and generous person in private, and I think 276 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: you write that in a very loving way in your 277 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: chapter on her. 278 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: Well. I had great affection for her, and she did 279 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: represent its combination of extreme strengths in defending her conventions 280 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: of great humanity in her relationship with people individually. And 281 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 2: actually I make the coin at the end of the 282 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:46,719 Speaker 2: book and the less paragraphs that one can explain her 283 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 2: properly without including the love she had for her country 284 00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: and for the importance of her country. When I met 285 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: her the first time, she had just been elected leader 286 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: of the Conservative Party, but she still had to wait 287 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: three years before she won the electorate. And we were 288 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 2: talking about campaigns in various democratic countries and that they 289 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 2: all fought for the middle ground that everybody try to 290 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 2: achieved and compromise to it. She said that would not 291 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: be what she would do. She sought her responsibility as 292 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: a leader was to put forward her convictions and to 293 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 2: move the middle growd towards her position, and not have 294 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 2: to move to the middle ground. And she maintained that 295 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: all the life and revolute nights the Conservative Body, and 296 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: some of the basic principles are still the essence of 297 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 2: the Conservative Body. 298 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: I was struck that she actually had an ability to 299 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: have a strategic goal and to stick to it no 300 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: matter what her allies, her friends, the news media, you 301 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: name it. I mean she knew where she was going. 302 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 2: I have a good illustration of historic defaulton in crisis 303 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: when the Argentines had taken over a British island, the 304 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: Faultlands of the coast of South America, and I had 305 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: been invited to deliver its speech at the British Foreignovis, 306 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 2: and she invited me to tea. But before that I 307 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: had had lund with the Foreign Secretary and with most 308 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: of its advisors, and they all were eager for a 309 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 2: negotiation with Argentina, and they had given me some options 310 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: for a negotiation at lunch. So when I saw her 311 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 2: that late afternoon, I asked her which options she favored, 312 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 2: but she was so outraged at the word option, and 313 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: so knowing that anyone could even suggest that that I 314 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 2: didn't dare to tell her that I had cut them 315 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: from her own advisers. But anyway, she managed to create 316 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 2: a fleet that went all the way from Britain to 317 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 2: the Fauldlands. Her basic principle was, cannot commit sovereignty to 318 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: be overthrown by military actions. It's a probably very similar 319 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 2: we have in in Ukraine today. And secondly, she thought 320 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 2: it was important for the Atlantic Alliance, for the free 321 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 2: peoples who were working together, that England did not look 322 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: as if it could be pushed over by military forts. 323 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 2: And she's stuck to it, and she achieved both of 324 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 2: her objects. 325 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: And I think that gave her a unique status, almost 326 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: more than any Prime minister since Churchill. Of somebody who 327 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: would risk everything to protect and defend Britain. 328 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 2: She certainly in her period and after I had the 329 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: honor of being invited to the funeral service at Saint 330 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: Paul's and the Queen attended. The Queen and had not 331 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 2: attended any funeral service for a prime minister except for Churchill. 332 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 2: So it was a wonderful example of the role of 333 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 2: the British monarchy, because in her bearing and conduct at 334 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: that funeral, she simpolized how important Thatcher had been for 335 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 2: the country. Even though the queen cannot take a political position, 336 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: she did. She raised that above being a prive minutes 337 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: too as a I didn't think you with Pridigi history. 338 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: Of the six people you write about, the one who 339 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: I think is both the most romantic and the most 340 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: tragic is anwar Sadad. And I thought that chapter of 341 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: your book was particularly inspiring and in essense stimulating, because 342 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: you put Saddad in a context of trying to literally 343 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: change a cultural moment, not just a political moment, and 344 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: taking just enormous risks to do it. 345 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: I think said that would probably not have been assassinated 346 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: if he had negotiated with his under basis of immediate 347 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: tactical issues. But he explained to his people and to 348 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 2: the month the Islamic that the pattern of thinking had 349 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: to be changing if one wanted a peaceful worth. And 350 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 2: where Adams had refused to negotiate with Israel for many decades, 351 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 2: he not only negotiated with Israel, he went to Jerusalem 352 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: and made a speech in which he said, we both 353 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: have to overcome basic rejudices, and we have to build 354 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: such a world. And he managed to get him to 355 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: negotiate a peace agreement, but too many people in its 356 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: own country wouldn't forgive him for his successes. But it 357 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:06,719 Speaker 2: was inspiring because he had had the courage to start 358 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: the seventy three war with its little because he wanted 359 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: to show that he was acting from real conviction and strength. 360 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: And then I had the negotiation with him, and I 361 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: was wondering how difficult that might be, because up to 362 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: then he had been more of the apparently more on 363 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 2: the riding inside. And so we got into the negotiating 364 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 2: room and he sat down and he said, I want 365 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: a new salution. I wanted Kits and sitslution that was 366 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 2: a tribute to the Secretary of State position I had, 367 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 2: which meant he wanted deed American approach that we want. 368 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: We cannot settle this all at once, but we can 369 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: make peace on a country by country basis. And then 370 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: he did that, and without contribution, but without that basic 371 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: conviction to which he had come that you have an 372 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 2: international order, you need some conceptual agreements, it probably couldn't 373 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 2: have been done. He was a movie personality. 374 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: Well, why I got the impression of all of the 375 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: personality you wrote about, he's in a sense the most transcendent, 376 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: that he had reached beyond his own experience and beyond 377 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: his own culture, and had a vision and was prepared 378 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: to sacrifice his life for. 379 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: That vision, and beyond the im media tactically ute, he 380 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 2: was in that sense, he was unique. 381 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: When I wrote my newsletter about leadership and urged everybody 382 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: to go buy it, I got a note from one 383 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: of our readers, Mark Harvat, who wanted me to ask 384 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: you so on behalf of Mark. He says, please ask 385 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: doctor Kissinger what he thinks of the Abraham Accords. And 386 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: he went on to say that he used to work 387 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: in the Middle East in the nineteen eighties and never 388 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: thought it'd be possible to have that kind of agreement. 389 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: I know you've talked about a little bit in some 390 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: other places, but what is your sense of the role 391 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: of the Abraham Accords and the evolution of the region. 392 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: Abraham Accords could be a breakthrough in the tradition of 393 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 2: what we've been talking about, of what said that was 394 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: attempted to achieve because the countries, it may did, were 395 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 2: relatively small than size, very rich of the oil, but 396 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: they took a broad view beyond definitely military confrontations. They 397 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: depend importantly in their day to day life on Saudi 398 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 2: Arabia and Egypt. That's much larger countries, but they took 399 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 2: that basic step for themselves. But they have achieved substantial 400 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 2: support from Egypt and more support than it's apparent from 401 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia really on these issues. They're moving in the 402 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: same direct and with the issue of Iran coming up 403 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 2: in the next years, and it's really important agreement that 404 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: links it to key Arab countries in the way that 405 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 2: that being achieved previously, or to agree agreement. 406 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: Said that I had the sense that you wrote this 407 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: book on leadership in part because you instinctively are worried 408 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: that the system is less likely today to produce leaders 409 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: with this kind of capability, and that we really need 410 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: to think deeply about how we're going to educate and 411 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:41,399 Speaker 1: recruit and get people to this level of historic capability. 412 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: Would that be a pretty accurate sense that you are 413 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 1: worried about how the system has in a sense. 414 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 2: Decayed well its system in order to do try to 415 00:35:53,640 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: create a system of stapility in progress within a country 416 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 2: and of international orders between nations. You need visions that 417 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 2: go beyond the day to day tactical problems that arise 418 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 2: in the normal courtural events that inspire you to deal 419 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: with these practical problems. But remember that a vision is 420 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 2: needed to link the practical to divisionary. And in the 421 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 2: contemporary world, and regrettably in most democratic countries, this visionary 422 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 2: element is declining. And these countries define their domestic practical 423 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 2: issues that's the only valid ones, and therefore the unity 424 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 2: in the country it's diminishing. And at the same time, 425 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 2: technology is producing such a change in human life for 426 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: which there are no categories. If you cannot develop some 427 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 2: common mission and conceptual approaches, that I would say is 428 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: maybe the biggest challenge of our contemporary. 429 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: But I want to close with a personal note. You 430 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: may remember a while back I called you, and I 431 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: think I was seventy seven or something time, and you're 432 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: exactly twenty years older than me, and I said, what's 433 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: your advice about getting older? And you said you're too 434 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: young to have this conversation, I would say, dealing with 435 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: you at ninety nine. First of all, this is a 436 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: book any leader at any age would be proud of. 437 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: It's a remarkable book, and to have you now explaining 438 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: your next work, which I am confident will be equally brilliant. 439 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: You are truly a model of what citizenship can be like, 440 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: and somebody who's a truly historic figure. 441 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 2: I remember that many conversations we have had over the years, 442 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 2: and when you were speaking, nows what I presidered in 443 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 2: conceptual and inspirational objectives you had. They think sometime do 444 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 2: improvement over a period of decades, but you have played 445 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 2: an important rule from what I've been able to do up. 446 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: To Well, I think it's important, and you are an 447 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: example that I wish we had more people doing, because 448 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 1: each generation has to learn from prior generations or they're 449 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: doomed to repeat the mistakes and to run the risk. 450 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: And I think your body of work since leaving public 451 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,320 Speaker 1: office is frankly as important a contribution to the future 452 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,879 Speaker 1: of the human race as the work you did while 453 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: you were in office. 454 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 2: Well, I'm very touched by what you've said throughout this program, 455 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 2: and it's really remarkable. They know, but such a long 456 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 2: period of time you have maintained a leadership put is. 457 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: Well between us. We may get something done together, and 458 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: then another twenty years from now I want to call 459 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: you and ask your advice and getting older, Henry, I 460 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: want to thank you for joining me. This has been 461 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: great fun. I hope you felt some usefulness and some 462 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: positive about doing it. In your book Leadership six Studies 463 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,959 Speaker 1: in World Strategy, I encourage everyone to buy a copy, 464 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: and I hope this podcast will convince them that you're 465 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: worth learning from. Thank you, good, Thank you to my guest, 466 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger. You can get a link to buy his 467 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: new book, Leadership six Studies and World Strategy on our 468 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: show page at nutsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by 469 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey 470 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for 471 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to 472 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: the team at gingridgh three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 473 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 474 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 475 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,720 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 476 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly 477 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:56,240 Speaker 1: columns at gingisthree sixty dot com. Slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 478 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld.