WEBVTT - Robert Margouleff and Mark Mothersbaugh 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.956 Pushkin. Robert Marglev is one of the most quietly consequential 0:00:22.956 --> 0:00:26.116 figures in modern music, a sonic architect who helped build 0:00:26.156 --> 0:00:28.236 some of the most innovative and enduring sounds of the 0:00:28.276 --> 0:00:32.036 last half century. Together with his partner Malcolm Cecil, Robert 0:00:32.076 --> 0:00:36.076 created Tanto, the world's largest analog synthesizer, and used it 0:00:36.116 --> 0:00:39.316 to co produce a string of air defining Stevie Wonder classics, 0:00:39.356 --> 0:00:43.316 including Music of My Mind, Talking Book, Innervisions, and Fulfilling 0:00:43.396 --> 0:00:46.356 This his first finale. He went on to work with 0:00:46.436 --> 0:00:48.716 Jeff Beck the Isisley Brothers in a scrappy art punk 0:00:48.756 --> 0:00:52.396 band from Akron, Ohio called Devo, helping shape the early 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:54.516 sound and is something that felt like it arrived from 0:00:54.556 --> 0:00:58.236 another dimension entirely. You might remember Robert from his Broken 0:00:58.276 --> 0:01:00.796 Record and Review a few years back. Now he's releasing 0:01:00.876 --> 0:01:04.076 an audio book called Shaping Sounds Stevie Wonder, Divo the 0:01:04.116 --> 0:01:07.396 Synth Revolution in My Life Behind the Music. It's a 0:01:07.396 --> 0:01:11.156 memoir about creativity, collaboration, an artistic courage, told by someone 0:01:11.156 --> 0:01:14.436 who was in the room. On today's episode, I sit 0:01:14.476 --> 0:01:17.396 down with Margolev and Mark Mother's ba, the frontman of 0:01:17.436 --> 0:01:20.156 Devo composer, visual artist and one of the most original 0:01:20.156 --> 0:01:23.716 creative minds of his generation. They recall working together to 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:25.996 make Devot's Freedom of Choice in the glory days of 0:01:25.996 --> 0:01:28.836 recording at the record plant in Los Angeles in the eighties. 0:01:29.836 --> 0:01:31.916 You can use the code sounds twenty five at pushing 0:01:31.996 --> 0:01:35.156 DOFM slash shaping sounds to save twenty five percent on 0:01:35.316 --> 0:01:44.276 the audiobook. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. 0:01:47.596 --> 0:01:50.796 Here's my conversation with Robert Margolev and Mark Mother's ba. 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:55.516 We were one step ahead of the digital sampling where 0:01:55.556 --> 0:01:57.956 you could like do something like that and then have 0:01:58.076 --> 0:02:00.076 it on a key and play it later. So that 0:02:00.116 --> 0:02:01.156 came a few years later. 0:02:01.196 --> 0:02:02.956 So you guys actually had to crack a Yeah, we 0:02:02.996 --> 0:02:04.116 had a track the whip. 0:02:04.676 --> 0:02:07.476 We had to take turns whipping each other. It was awful. 0:02:07.636 --> 0:02:07.836 You know. 0:02:08.236 --> 0:02:11.316 The thing is said, really are worthwhile stick out and 0:02:11.596 --> 0:02:14.236 when you think about freedom of choice in general, that 0:02:14.316 --> 0:02:16.076 record really has lasted. 0:02:16.436 --> 0:02:19.516 This is Mark Studio. We're in Mark Mothersbaugh Studio and 0:02:19.556 --> 0:02:22.076 you guys obviously have a history which we're here to 0:02:22.116 --> 0:02:22.556 talk about. 0:02:22.676 --> 0:02:24.316 We have a very long history. 0:02:24.436 --> 0:02:25.916 But I didn't know you had a history with this 0:02:26.276 --> 0:02:28.756 building that oh yes, Mark works out. 0:02:28.596 --> 0:02:31.756 It, although I've never actually recorded in this building except 0:02:31.756 --> 0:02:34.716 with Tonto. Tonto used to live exactly where Mark is 0:02:34.756 --> 0:02:38.116 sitting right now. The instrument was here for about two 0:02:38.236 --> 0:02:41.716 or three years. We didn't get a lot done, but 0:02:42.276 --> 0:02:46.036 we cameven fiddled around with it more than actually got 0:02:46.076 --> 0:02:51.716 serious with it here. But I was off on other 0:02:51.836 --> 0:02:55.276 adventures at that time, and I don't know, Malcolm and 0:02:55.316 --> 0:02:58.716 I never really sort of put our minds to it 0:02:58.756 --> 0:03:00.796 as much as we should have and could have. It 0:03:00.876 --> 0:03:05.036 was a remarkable opportunity that I think, I sort of 0:03:05.036 --> 0:03:07.796 think we missed out on. That we could have done 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:12.236 more here than he did. But I was off making records. 0:03:12.556 --> 0:03:15.516 Yeah, we were off doing things. Yeah I was. I 0:03:15.556 --> 0:03:18.956 had found out about film and TV scoring and that 0:03:19.036 --> 0:03:22.116 became my love and so I was deep in that. 0:03:22.476 --> 0:03:25.436 But it was but Tonto brought a really great energy 0:03:25.476 --> 0:03:29.076 because also at that time I had the building was 0:03:30.276 --> 0:03:33.116 fairly new, so like a lot of stuff, like these 0:03:33.556 --> 0:03:37.236 racks of tapes, they weren't in this room back then. 0:03:37.356 --> 0:03:40.556 Sokna was kind of had the whole room all to itself, 0:03:40.716 --> 0:03:47.476 and it was It was pretty amazing because a lot 0:03:47.516 --> 0:03:49.956 of people came over and saw Tano and they were 0:03:50.036 --> 0:03:53.156 just like knocked over just to even see it. It 0:03:53.276 --> 0:03:59.996 was such an amazing piece of art, and and it 0:04:00.076 --> 0:04:02.676 had great energy. It was it was kind of like, 0:04:03.356 --> 0:04:06.196 you know, Bob. That was probably Bob when his mind 0:04:06.276 --> 0:04:08.156 was working. The fact. I don't know if that's true 0:04:08.236 --> 0:04:10.596 or not, but you were definitely busy in that time 0:04:10.636 --> 0:04:11.796 period to have created that. 0:04:12.276 --> 0:04:15.396 Uh, that instrument I think was around Stevie time too. 0:04:15.556 --> 0:04:19.716 So our work together we really well, we did. We 0:04:19.756 --> 0:04:23.276 did a freedom of choice before that time, way before that, 0:04:23.556 --> 0:04:26.716 before before the synthesogy, before y. 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:29.596 Yeah, before yeah Tanto was here. 0:04:29.676 --> 0:04:33.516 Yeah, boy, that was something else. I love making that record. 0:04:33.636 --> 0:04:35.876 Oh yeah, I have a lot of really good memories 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:36.356 about it. 0:04:36.796 --> 0:04:40.556 Yeah. That's probably, in a lot of ways, probably the 0:04:40.556 --> 0:04:47.276 best Divo record. Uh and definitely sonically it was. Uh, 0:04:47.356 --> 0:04:48.996 Divo learned a lot from you. 0:04:48.996 --> 0:04:49.236 You know. 0:04:49.316 --> 0:04:51.836 We when we started off, we just had like a 0:04:51.876 --> 0:04:55.636 little tax four track and and I was like recording, Okay, 0:04:55.676 --> 0:04:59.276 I'll put all the drums on one track based on 0:04:59.276 --> 0:05:01.836 one guitar. One. Then I got to mix it all 0:05:01.876 --> 0:05:04.916 down and then add a vocal and a solo and 0:05:04.956 --> 0:05:07.796 that and that that would like limit esthetically what you 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:10.916 could do back in those days. So so we were 0:05:11.036 --> 0:05:13.516 used to that world. And then I mean, there's there's 0:05:13.516 --> 0:05:15.556 a lot of good things. We worked with Brian Eno 0:05:15.676 --> 0:05:18.836 and Bowie on our first one, but Ino was new 0:05:18.916 --> 0:05:24.116 to producing and he he in retrospect said, yeah, you know, 0:05:24.196 --> 0:05:26.276 there's I wish I would have known more about how 0:05:26.316 --> 0:05:29.556 to produce a band, you know, when he worked with us. 0:05:29.756 --> 0:05:32.636 And then the next one was Ken Scott, and he 0:05:33.476 --> 0:05:37.396 kind of took our songs apart in a way, in 0:05:37.436 --> 0:05:40.756 a in an unfortunate way because because they were written 0:05:40.756 --> 0:05:43.116 to be played live, we wrote them while we were 0:05:43.156 --> 0:05:47.196 playing in clubs, and then he had us all play 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:50.396 one at a time to a click and that it 0:05:50.556 --> 0:05:52.116 just didn't destroy the record. 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:55.116 Yeah, which is interesting because I mean he got his 0:05:55.196 --> 0:05:58.796 start with like those early Beatles records, right, and so 0:05:58.836 --> 0:06:01.916 you would you would think his his inclination would be 0:06:01.996 --> 0:06:04.396 to do something live, you know, in the studio. 0:06:04.716 --> 0:06:07.996 Yeah, you know, maybe he regretted it afterwards. I don't know. 0:06:09.556 --> 0:06:13.316 We never talked again after that, but uh, you know, 0:06:13.436 --> 0:06:16.116 it was like Bob came along and he brought so 0:06:16.276 --> 0:06:18.796 much to what we were doing, and he had the 0:06:18.876 --> 0:06:20.876 right kind of We had the right kind of chemistry. 0:06:20.916 --> 0:06:24.756 Bob was a producer who had been you know, not 0:06:24.836 --> 0:06:28.236 only very successful, but he was always an artist and 0:06:28.316 --> 0:06:33.156 always you know, a technician, and he was the kind 0:06:33.156 --> 0:06:35.676 of guy that it was like magical to work with 0:06:35.756 --> 0:06:38.476 in a way because he had a great person you know, 0:06:38.516 --> 0:06:41.276 he could work with people. He was empathetic in a 0:06:41.316 --> 0:06:44.116 way that was really helpful for us because we were 0:06:44.156 --> 0:06:48.916 like paranoid and negative or were. 0:06:48.836 --> 0:06:51.436 Come off You'd come off of two albums that really 0:06:52.396 --> 0:06:56.836 should have been a lot better and to you artistically, yeah, 0:06:57.196 --> 0:07:00.636 and you knew it, Yeah, and I knew it. My 0:07:00.796 --> 0:07:05.076 secret was to let you be yourselves and to put 0:07:05.076 --> 0:07:07.236 you at a place. And I'm looking back, I'm doing 0:07:07.276 --> 0:07:11.396 some research on perceptive listens now, and I found out 0:07:11.436 --> 0:07:15.356 that by bringing what I was doing naturally, not only 0:07:15.396 --> 0:07:17.756 with Mark but with Stevie and most of my artists 0:07:18.476 --> 0:07:21.036 was to bring them into the control room. And the 0:07:21.116 --> 0:07:24.116 control room was like a musical instrument that you would habit, 0:07:25.076 --> 0:07:28.796 and by bringing them into the control room, we didn't 0:07:28.796 --> 0:07:31.796 have to deal with headphones. With the exception of Alan Myers, 0:07:31.836 --> 0:07:35.836 the drummer, but he had enough leakage out around his 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:39.436 headphones so that he could hear his drums in space 0:07:39.516 --> 0:07:41.556 as well as what was going on in his head. 0:07:42.316 --> 0:07:46.396 The entire band was in the control room, and by 0:07:46.476 --> 0:07:51.796 listening without headphones, they weren't isolated. I headphones tend to 0:07:51.836 --> 0:07:54.756 isolate people one from the other and separate you from 0:07:54.796 --> 0:07:58.996 the reality. When we brought the band into Howard Siegel 0:07:59.036 --> 0:08:01.476 and I brought the band into the control room and 0:08:01.596 --> 0:08:05.076 ditched the headphones. It's one of the main reasons that 0:08:05.116 --> 0:08:06.876 they were really able to play together. 0:08:07.556 --> 0:08:08.516 I'd say that's true. 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:11.716 Yeah, And I know from speaking to you on the 0:08:11.756 --> 0:08:15.756 show previously, you were thinking of freedom of choice. Freedom 0:08:15.756 --> 0:08:18.276 of Choice as DeVos Funk album. 0:08:18.836 --> 0:08:21.316 Well, that that was our concept when we went into it. 0:08:21.356 --> 0:08:23.876 I mean, you know, you have to understand we were 0:08:24.116 --> 0:08:27.156 pretty far out there if you look at the way 0:08:27.196 --> 0:08:29.396 we dressed, in the way the kind of songs we 0:08:29.396 --> 0:08:32.396 were writing, and we were a conceptual band. You know, 0:08:32.756 --> 0:08:35.276 we were about ideas first. And you know, we weren't 0:08:35.276 --> 0:08:38.516 writing like about sex and drugs and rock and roll 0:08:38.596 --> 0:08:40.396 so much. You know, it wasn't we didn't have any 0:08:40.516 --> 0:08:44.036 lyrics at where I'm snorting whiskey and drinking cocaine think 0:08:44.076 --> 0:08:47.116 I'm going to go insane, and you know, it's like 0:08:47.716 --> 0:08:51.316 we were kind of anti all that. I don't know, 0:08:51.356 --> 0:08:55.036 it just Bob sunk up with with that really well. 0:08:55.356 --> 0:08:57.076 But we were, yeah, we were thinking, how can we 0:08:57.116 --> 0:09:01.836 make our stuff sound more funky? And we were you know, 0:09:01.916 --> 0:09:04.596 like looking around at who did what and where things 0:09:04.636 --> 0:09:08.156 came from. And when we found out about Bob and 0:09:08.236 --> 0:09:12.076 saw well he'd worked with Stevie, which was like, couldn't 0:09:12.116 --> 0:09:14.116 be any better than that, But he was also this 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:18.676 genius who created this this instrument that was one of 0:09:18.716 --> 0:09:24.796 a kind and had an imprint on pop music at 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:28.076 the time. You know, it influenced people even more than 0:09:28.116 --> 0:09:30.236 it actually got to be on the records. It's everybody 0:09:30.316 --> 0:09:32.836 knew about it and everybody and you saw the picture 0:09:32.836 --> 0:09:35.436 of it. It was like an incredible piece of sculpture. 0:09:37.076 --> 0:09:41.476 You know. We sought him out and he was interested, 0:09:41.556 --> 0:09:42.356 lucky for us. 0:09:43.076 --> 0:09:45.716 The dichotomy of that, even still in hindsight all these 0:09:45.756 --> 0:09:48.556 years later, still fascinating to me that you have a 0:09:48.596 --> 0:09:52.196 machine as seemingly, at least to me, experimental as Tonto 0:09:52.956 --> 0:10:00.116 and avant garde as Tonto, and an artist as pop 0:10:00.316 --> 0:10:04.116 as Stevie. You know, or as you know, coming from Motown, 0:10:04.436 --> 0:10:06.796 which is very slick and polished. I mean, I love 0:10:06.796 --> 0:10:09.756 all the Motown stuff, but there's definitely many years there 0:10:09.836 --> 0:10:12.836 was a singular Motown sound, you know. Barry Gordy did 0:10:12.876 --> 0:10:15.676 refer to it as a factory, you know, and so 0:10:16.636 --> 0:10:19.876 a formula It was formulaic, but not in a very 0:10:19.876 --> 0:10:22.076 cool way. But then for Stevie to come out of 0:10:22.076 --> 0:10:25.356 that and then to get paired with this sort of 0:10:25.476 --> 0:10:29.356 avant guard machine that you created, you and Malcolm Cecil, 0:10:29.436 --> 0:10:32.036 is its fascinating still. 0:10:32.316 --> 0:10:34.596 You know. I never I never thought it would end. 0:10:35.396 --> 0:10:38.396 We were really in its own space, that's for sure. 0:10:39.196 --> 0:10:42.716 In working with Mark, I really did want to pay 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:45.716 attention to the R and B bottom end, which is 0:10:46.076 --> 0:10:49.396 I paid strict attention to that in that recording that 0:10:49.476 --> 0:10:52.796 we did. Freedom of choice to us to pay strict 0:10:52.796 --> 0:10:55.436 attention to the bottom end of the record. Being able 0:10:55.476 --> 0:10:58.476 to work in the control room inside and habit the 0:10:58.636 --> 0:11:01.836 musical instrument itself, because a lot of the sounds we 0:11:01.876 --> 0:11:04.356 made weren't sounds until they fell out of the loud 0:11:04.356 --> 0:11:08.436 speaker one way or another. That the control room itself 0:11:08.476 --> 0:11:13.276 we were in howbiting a musical instrument and I viewed 0:11:13.316 --> 0:11:16.276 it like that. But the other thing that was really 0:11:16.316 --> 0:11:19.876 important to me, where I've really had my success in 0:11:19.996 --> 0:11:24.116 music was because of the political overtones that Diva was 0:11:24.156 --> 0:11:27.436 writing about was something that I really got. I mean, 0:11:27.676 --> 0:11:31.756 I was ahead of the curve nineteen fifty eight. You know, 0:11:31.836 --> 0:11:35.836 I remember Medgar Evers, I remember Martin Luther King, I 0:11:35.876 --> 0:11:40.156 remember John Lewis, I remember the Norman Pettis Bridge. I 0:11:40.196 --> 0:11:43.476 remember little black girls being escorted to school by white 0:11:43.476 --> 0:11:47.476 marshalls with guns. So when I came out of high school, 0:11:47.516 --> 0:11:50.956 I was already the school I went to was really 0:11:51.076 --> 0:11:55.036 sort of based around the awareness of civil rights. So 0:11:55.316 --> 0:11:58.956 the things that really attracted me at music were things 0:11:59.036 --> 0:12:02.556 that had something to do with civil rights and with 0:12:02.636 --> 0:12:08.076 the productive, with the sociological effects of civilization on itself, 0:12:08.076 --> 0:12:13.236 how it ways our civilization is eating itself. We're consuming 0:12:13.356 --> 0:12:18.156 our own our own rubbish in some way right now. 0:12:19.036 --> 0:12:23.196 But what attracted me to the to Devo also was 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:26.996 the content of the lyrics it had. Like Stevie, we 0:12:26.996 --> 0:12:29.996 were doing things like Living for the City and He's 0:12:30.076 --> 0:12:33.956 Mister Noodle, which was about Richard Nixon. For example, Mark 0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:38.116 and Jerry were writing music about the human condition and 0:12:38.156 --> 0:12:41.156 the prediction of the future, and right now here we 0:12:41.196 --> 0:12:47.116 are in twenty twenty six, and what we were singing 0:12:47.156 --> 0:12:50.636 about the boys were doing in the studio in nineteen 0:12:50.676 --> 0:12:55.396 eighty three or four, whatever it was, they nailed it 0:12:55.556 --> 0:12:58.276 right on the right, on the head of the thing. 0:12:58.596 --> 0:13:00.836 I mean there was it was predictive. And we see 0:13:00.876 --> 0:13:07.196 it today that the predictions, the Devotian predictions are coming true. 0:13:07.756 --> 0:13:09.556 How do we how do we stop it? How do 0:13:09.596 --> 0:13:13.676 we change the world again? Can we change it through music? 0:13:13.756 --> 0:13:20.676 I wonder, you know what, when I was twenty nineteen seventy, 0:13:21.276 --> 0:13:23.556 I remember thinking, Ah, I wish I was born in 0:13:23.596 --> 0:13:26.436 the nineteen twentiest, you know, I wish I could have 0:13:26.476 --> 0:13:30.476 been in Europe during that incredible period of art where 0:13:30.476 --> 0:13:36.396 they were Bajas and Surrealism and Dadaism and Futurism and 0:13:36.476 --> 0:13:38.836 all those art movements were happening. I said, I wish 0:13:38.836 --> 0:13:40.596 I would have been around for that. I missed out 0:13:40.596 --> 0:13:43.516 on that. But that was a really dark period that 0:13:43.596 --> 0:13:45.676 was between World War One and World War two, and 0:13:45.756 --> 0:13:49.476 fascism was on the rise. And I feel like when 0:13:49.516 --> 0:13:53.756 DeVos started in the seventies, it was kind of like 0:13:54.236 --> 0:13:58.596 it had come back again, and it created things like 0:13:59.156 --> 0:14:03.876 punk and new wave and electronica music and a lot 0:14:03.956 --> 0:14:09.116 of things. It inspired artists, just like fascism inspired artists 0:14:09.156 --> 0:14:13.676 in the twenties thirties. I think what happened in the 0:14:13.756 --> 0:14:16.836 seventies was because Jerry and I were at a school 0:14:16.836 --> 0:14:20.956 where we were protesting the war in Vietnam and they 0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:24.436 just said, okay, just shoot them, and they shot like 0:14:24.556 --> 0:14:27.436 thirty some kids and killed four of them. And they 0:14:27.436 --> 0:14:30.396 did that at other places around the country and it 0:14:30.516 --> 0:14:34.156 shut everybody down. It's like after that, music turned into 0:14:34.316 --> 0:14:37.716 like this like corporate white rock, where it was like 0:14:37.996 --> 0:14:43.356 it was basically, I'm white, I'm a misogynist, I'm proud 0:14:43.356 --> 0:14:47.036 of it, I'm a conspicuous consumer, you know. And that 0:14:47.196 --> 0:14:49.956 was like the politics of music that or it was disco, 0:14:49.996 --> 0:14:53.956 which was like had beautiful sounds, but like the lyrics 0:14:53.996 --> 0:14:56.476 were all stupid. And Jerry used to go, oh, it's 0:14:56.516 --> 0:14:59.956 like a woman with no brain is how we felt 0:14:59.996 --> 0:15:04.756 about disco because it didn't have a political message to it. 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:07.756 It was like everything was during the period that punk 0:15:07.796 --> 0:15:09.996 and new way was starting. It was like that and 0:15:10.676 --> 0:15:12.756 I don't know, I'm an old guy now, so so 0:15:12.876 --> 0:15:14.156 like I've been around to see it. 0:15:14.356 --> 0:15:14.876 Notice that. 0:15:15.076 --> 0:15:18.516 Yeah, so it's been so it's like, well, then keep 0:15:18.516 --> 0:15:22.156 your prescription that whatever you're wearing just yet. But but 0:15:22.476 --> 0:15:24.796 you know, I feel like it's on another It's like 0:15:24.836 --> 0:15:26.876 I used to just we used to just talk about 0:15:26.876 --> 0:15:29.916 de evolution and things going down. But the reality is is, 0:15:29.996 --> 0:15:34.156 I think de evolution and evolution both exist and they're 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:39.156 in constant crisis with each other and conflict. And I 0:15:39.156 --> 0:15:42.756 think this time period is going to expec going to 0:15:42.956 --> 0:15:45.516 create young artists that are that are going to take 0:15:45.916 --> 0:15:48.556 take things from what's going on right now in the world. 0:15:48.956 --> 0:15:51.156 They're going to be inspired by that, and they're going 0:15:51.236 --> 0:15:54.436 to take the new technology. You know, it's like everybody's 0:15:54.556 --> 0:16:00.476 oh Ai AI's evil, but it's also like technology was 0:16:00.556 --> 0:16:03.156 back in the seventies. It was like you could use 0:16:03.156 --> 0:16:05.036 it for good or bad. And I think what's going 0:16:05.116 --> 0:16:09.596 to happen is I think technology and what's happening now 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:12.316 in the world is going to inspire young artists to 0:16:12.356 --> 0:16:15.516 do artwork that you and I are going to go, dang, 0:16:15.596 --> 0:16:17.916 why didn't I think of that? That's amazing. We're going 0:16:17.956 --> 0:16:20.796 to hear stuff from kids. I think it now is 0:16:20.836 --> 0:16:24.316 like a really amazing time to be a young artist. 0:16:24.436 --> 0:16:27.876 Yeah, I think, you know, just talking quickly about AI, 0:16:29.556 --> 0:16:33.556 you know the WGA for example, the writer's skills that 0:16:34.156 --> 0:16:37.996 God forbid you should have at AAI and your dialogue 0:16:38.076 --> 0:16:40.996 and your script and you're writing your manuscript, and there's 0:16:41.036 --> 0:16:44.036 a tremendous amount of fear of people sticking their heads 0:16:44.396 --> 0:16:48.396 in the sand and trying to deny its existence. We 0:16:48.516 --> 0:16:51.876 have to really understand that AI is here, it's not 0:16:52.076 --> 0:16:55.516 going away, and if we're going to use it creatively, 0:16:55.796 --> 0:16:58.196 that's a good thing. But we have to learn how 0:16:58.196 --> 0:17:01.556 to use it and understand it. You know, a lot 0:17:01.596 --> 0:17:04.356 of stuff. What I'm hearing now musically is like AI 0:17:04.556 --> 0:17:06.716 slop is what I call it. 0:17:07.836 --> 0:17:08.676 Even if it's not. 0:17:11.676 --> 0:17:12.556 It's mindless. 0:17:13.516 --> 0:17:15.916 But yeah, but there are people who are. 0:17:15.916 --> 0:17:19.236 Using it creatively in ways that it would not have 0:17:19.476 --> 0:17:23.836 even dawned on me. And I celebrate that. I I 0:17:23.916 --> 0:17:26.636 think that that's a good thing. I think we got 0:17:26.636 --> 0:17:28.836 to take our head out of the sand, understand that 0:17:28.876 --> 0:17:31.796 it's here. I mean, AI does good things in medicine. 0:17:31.876 --> 0:17:35.836 AI does good things in research. It helps me write 0:17:35.876 --> 0:17:38.516 when I'm doing research and I need to know something, 0:17:38.596 --> 0:17:41.956 I have a I have my copilot there. It gives 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:47.356 gives me information, it educates me. But I think we're 0:17:47.436 --> 0:17:52.116 also you know, the problem with AI and music is, 0:17:52.476 --> 0:17:54.836 you know somebody who wrote one song a month maybe 0:17:54.996 --> 0:17:57.956 or one song every six weeks and sweat it over 0:17:57.996 --> 0:18:01.436 the lyrics and really, you know, did something that was 0:18:01.516 --> 0:18:05.596 heartfelt and poetic. That same guy sitting in his kitchen 0:18:05.676 --> 0:18:09.436 table at the laptop with the headphones on and writing 0:18:09.476 --> 0:18:12.916 five hundred songs in a month and then putting him 0:18:12.956 --> 0:18:16.236 up online and then you know, polluting the atmosphere with 0:18:16.276 --> 0:18:19.996 what I call AI slop, you know, and there's tons 0:18:19.996 --> 0:18:22.716 of it. How do you sort the good, the wheat 0:18:22.756 --> 0:18:26.396 from the chaff after all of that. The other problem 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:29.676 is that it totally lacks roboto and feel. I mean, 0:18:29.756 --> 0:18:31.516 when you think about it, If you think about it, 0:18:31.516 --> 0:18:34.356 a great conductor coming out on the stage and a 0:18:34.396 --> 0:18:36.796 guy comes out dressed like a penguin with a stick 0:18:37.356 --> 0:18:40.556 and starts waving it around, and suddenly an entire orchestra 0:18:40.676 --> 0:18:44.516 is performing as one instrument. He's deciding where the music 0:18:44.556 --> 0:18:47.636 speeds up, where the music slows down, which is called roboto, 0:18:48.516 --> 0:18:51.636 or where it gets louder and where it gets softer. 0:18:51.916 --> 0:18:55.396 And you begin to realize that that whole orchestra's focused 0:18:55.436 --> 0:18:57.676 on the end of the stick that he's waving around, 0:18:58.516 --> 0:19:03.196 and that his whole emotion is being transmitted to the orchestra, 0:19:03.236 --> 0:19:07.316 and they're playing with tremendous empathy. And that's what we 0:19:07.356 --> 0:19:10.716 connect with. Whether it's that or it's Taylor Swift in 0:19:10.756 --> 0:19:14.116 front of a huge audience or a devo in front 0:19:14.116 --> 0:19:17.476 of two thousand or five thousand people, it's that exchange. 0:19:17.516 --> 0:19:20.436 It's that vibe that we need to have. That is 0:19:20.956 --> 0:19:24.916 the current of sound that we inhabit. I think that 0:19:24.916 --> 0:19:28.556 that really what's going circling way back. But I think that, 0:19:28.636 --> 0:19:31.876 in a way, was what really made that record successful 0:19:31.996 --> 0:19:35.156 was the effect that was played as one instrument. It 0:19:35.196 --> 0:19:39.596 was five people playing together as one instrument, everyone playing 0:19:39.636 --> 0:19:42.276 their place on the keyboard, so to speak. 0:19:42.636 --> 0:19:46.516 You know, Bob, I totally agree with you, especially about 0:19:46.556 --> 0:19:52.756 the orchestra, because I score movies and I score a 0:19:52.796 --> 0:19:56.156 lot of animation, and animation no matter how great it looks, 0:19:57.036 --> 0:19:59.516 it's like if they show a picture of a field, 0:20:00.076 --> 0:20:03.476 there's millions of things happening out in that field, like 0:20:03.556 --> 0:20:06.396 little insects you can't see, but you and the wind 0:20:06.436 --> 0:20:09.756 blowing and leaves growing. If I just write, you know, 0:20:09.796 --> 0:20:11.676 when I write the music, and it's just on my 0:20:11.836 --> 0:20:16.356 sense and using my libraries of like orchestral sounds, and 0:20:16.396 --> 0:20:19.316 it's a real orchestra going rare. If you hear the 0:20:19.356 --> 0:20:23.196 same chord over and over again, everybody, even people that aren't, 0:20:23.316 --> 0:20:26.716 you know, very sophisticated musically, they all can say, oh, yeah, 0:20:26.756 --> 0:20:31.396 that's that's electronics. That's that's not real people. Whereas when 0:20:31.516 --> 0:20:34.596 people come into a room, like whether I'm at Abbey 0:20:34.636 --> 0:20:38.236 Road or if I'm in Sony Studios or Fox or wherever, 0:20:38.916 --> 0:20:42.276 these people are coming off the streets and if it 0:20:42.316 --> 0:20:45.156 was raining outside, they're taking off raincoats and setting them 0:20:45.156 --> 0:20:48.236 beside them, and they're setting down their newspapers and their bags, 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:53.476 and they play and it's like you never know exactly 0:20:53.556 --> 0:20:56.756 what it's going to sound like, because they've all got 0:20:56.876 --> 0:21:00.796 blood going through their veins, they're breathing, they're they're either 0:21:00.836 --> 0:21:04.316 bowing up or down, or they're blowing at different rates 0:21:04.356 --> 0:21:08.236 and things, so it's never the exact same and it's different, 0:21:08.276 --> 0:21:11.236 and it makes the anime looks so much better now 0:21:11.276 --> 0:21:14.956 to me. That's why I don't worry about AI because 0:21:14.996 --> 0:21:20.876 I remember when technology invented electronic drums and synth sounds, 0:21:20.916 --> 0:21:23.836 and we loved all that stuff. But there were people 0:21:23.916 --> 0:21:26.236 that were going to the mall and they would buy 0:21:26.476 --> 0:21:28.436 a portable home Morgan, and they'd hit a button and 0:21:28.436 --> 0:21:30.556 we'd go boom di de boom di di boom, and 0:21:30.556 --> 0:21:32.076 they'd be go, oh, look, and then they'd hit a 0:21:32.116 --> 0:21:35.876 baseline a boom boom, boom boom, and then they'd play 0:21:35.916 --> 0:21:38.436 something over top of it, and they go, look at this, 0:21:38.796 --> 0:21:40.436 I just made up a song, you know, And then 0:21:40.436 --> 0:21:42.556 they go, let's make another one up tomorrow, you know. 0:21:42.996 --> 0:21:46.836 And so I feel like you and I already went 0:21:46.916 --> 0:21:49.836 through that, and we saw that, and we were taking 0:21:49.876 --> 0:21:53.396 that same equipment and we were looking for artistic ways 0:21:53.436 --> 0:21:53.996 to use it. 0:21:54.636 --> 0:21:56.716 I wonder what hop music is going to sound like 0:21:56.796 --> 0:22:00.196 in twenty years. I mean, we're as far away from 0:22:00.236 --> 0:22:03.596 Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman as you can get. Okay, 0:22:03.836 --> 0:22:08.476 Somehow music has evolved over the fifty sixty seventy years 0:22:09.316 --> 0:22:15.596 since Glen Miller, you know, Tommy Dorsey or Bing Crosby. 0:22:16.076 --> 0:22:18.356 I think even you know, you think, you know, go 0:22:18.436 --> 0:22:20.916 back to It's like Louis Armstrong's Hot fives and seven. 0:22:21.876 --> 0:22:23.836 You think about what just happened, that could. 0:22:24.476 --> 0:22:28.156 Think, Yeah, the interesting thing that happened though, it's the 0:22:28.196 --> 0:22:33.396 microphone changed everything. When Bing Crosby could walk out on 0:22:33.436 --> 0:22:36.756 the stage at Radio City Music Hall with a twenty 0:22:36.756 --> 0:22:40.116 five piece dance band orchestra of the big horn section 0:22:40.196 --> 0:22:43.396 and everything else, and they would record it and Bing 0:22:43.516 --> 0:22:45.356 could get to the mic like this and he would 0:22:45.356 --> 0:22:48.956 sing ba ba boo, ba ba boo like that, and 0:22:49.116 --> 0:22:52.956 suddenly that was as loud as the entire orchestra because 0:22:52.996 --> 0:22:55.356 we rearranged the reality right. 0:22:55.196 --> 0:22:57.276 You didn't have to, and we've been and we've been 0:22:57.316 --> 0:22:58.476 re arranging. 0:22:58.156 --> 0:23:03.036 That reality ever since, you know. Uh, But that one microphone. 0:23:03.276 --> 0:23:06.596