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Speaker 1: Yea. Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane.

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Speaker 1: Daily we bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

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Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg Wolis.

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Speaker 1: Julia Cornado, we want to pause here before we get

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Speaker 1: the g d P and the guestimates of it, with

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Speaker 1: the photo of the week last week for me and frankly,

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Speaker 1: is the photo of International Women's Day. If you just

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Speaker 1: assume that all of accomplishment of men and women is

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Speaker 1: about ability and smarts. What a wonderful photo of chair Yelling,

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Speaker 1: Catherine Man, Julia Cornado and others assembled. I believe Ellen

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Speaker 1: Zentner up I saw there from Morgan Stanley as well.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about the energy in the room, and tell

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Speaker 1: us what this meeting of the smartest minds of women economics,

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Speaker 1: what it meant for the young kids that were invited there. Yeah, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was it was a celebration of Janet

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Speaker 1: Yellen and her accomplishments. We wanted to say thank you

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Speaker 1: to her, and I think for everybody in that room.

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Speaker 1: She has been such a powerful figure for us, a

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Speaker 1: powerful inspiration. Uh and it was a really warm, warm environment.

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Speaker 1: Lots of lots of love in that room. Tell us

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Speaker 1: where we're going to be in five years or ten years.

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Speaker 1: The loneliness of Cherry Yellen, the loneliness of Kathy Man

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Speaker 1: at m I t a million years ago, Ellen Zetner

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Speaker 1: all by herself at Namura on our way to the

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Speaker 1: excellence at Morgan Stanley. And you've accomplished with particularly with

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Speaker 1: your analysis of g d P. It was lonely. It's

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Speaker 1: less lonely now where lonely? I mean, I I hope

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Speaker 1: we're I hope it's even less lonely. I hope it's

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Speaker 1: not a It doesn't make you unique to be a

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Speaker 1: woman chief economist in ten years, I certainly hope that

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Speaker 1: to be true. Um And I think that there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, both men and women, who are focused

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Speaker 1: on changing uh so so so I'm optimistic for that

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Speaker 1: path breaking here we forget it. And it's someone that

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Speaker 1: everyone in economics knows was the absolute courage of Joan

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Speaker 1: Robinson in London and in England, hugely contentious economics debates

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Speaker 1: coming out of World War Two. I think there's also

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Speaker 1: just a real awareness from a business perspective that actually

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Speaker 1: it brings huge amounts of benefits to have diversity. I

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Speaker 1: can share you an anecdote. I can't name the names,

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Speaker 1: but I know an individual that was an executive at

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Speaker 1: a large apparel brand here in the United States, and

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Speaker 1: the board were worried about female upper ourselves. And guess

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Speaker 1: what the board was made up of, all males. They

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Speaker 1: couldn't relate to women. And it's a problem the retailers

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Speaker 1: have had that the board is so dominated by say,

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Speaker 1: white males, they can't relate to most of the people

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Speaker 1: that are actually selling product too, and therefore the company

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Speaker 1: very quickly becomes stale. And Julia, that's the point I

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Speaker 1: think is more important. Absolutely absolutely awareness that the benefits

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Speaker 1: not about the stake of having numbers numbers fairness. It's

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Speaker 1: about getting things right. And that is true in the

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Speaker 1: retail industry, and that's also true in the finance industry.

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Speaker 1: Are you going to get the world right? In economics?

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Speaker 1: Are you going to forecast the world right if you

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Speaker 1: don't have half of the population represented, and and and

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Speaker 1: so representation matters not just a fairness but to getting things.

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Speaker 1: Let's get it right right now? Does President Trump have

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Speaker 1: it right that we can sustain make America great again GDP.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that we can sustain three percent GDP.

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Speaker 1: I think that we are going to have a very

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Speaker 1: good year. I think that we are going to grow

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Speaker 1: above trend. But I think that, you know, at least

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Speaker 1: the way we economists would look at things, when you

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Speaker 1: do fiscal stimulus at full employment, what happens do we

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Speaker 1: even have the workers to push GDP um Where we

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Speaker 1: saw in the basebook yesterday, the labor market's very tight.

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Speaker 1: It's very hard to find the workers to generate additional growth,

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Speaker 1: even to sustain the strong growth that we have. So

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Speaker 1: what happens is, and we've seen this in Q one

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Speaker 1: GDP numbers the trade. We start sourcing that growth abroad.

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Speaker 1: Imports are rising. The trade deficit is actually, quite ironically

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Speaker 1: right into the tariff debate today, which is if there's

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Speaker 1: a dearth of exports. The other side of that, as

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Speaker 1: you correctly state, as we're sourcing imports, right, we're sourcing imports.

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Speaker 1: We're sourcing and you know when you do capex, actually

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Speaker 1: a lot of the capex inputs are coming from abroad.

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Speaker 1: Uh So we're gonna trade is going to subtract maybe

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Speaker 1: even up to a percentage point off Q one GDP

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Speaker 1: because we are seeing strong demand and we have to

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Speaker 1: source it abroad. Uh And and what will the tariffs

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Speaker 1: due to all of this, um well, that has the

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Speaker 1: potential to crowd things out a bit, create a bit

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Speaker 1: of inflation, crowd out some of the investment. Are we

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Speaker 1: going to sustain a one percent decline in GDP looking

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Speaker 1: at exports and imports, that's a that's a loaded question. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, trade is very volatile, and and Q

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Speaker 1: one is that's one of the areas that typically features

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Speaker 1: in the week Q one pattern that we've had, so

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Speaker 1: you don't want to extrapolate from that. But I think

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Speaker 1: whether Q want Julia, no, no, no, it's not whether

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Speaker 1: it's not whether it's statistical, it's season residual, seasonality. But

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Speaker 1: I think in general, for the year as a whole,

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Speaker 1: we should look for trade to be a bigger drag

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Speaker 1: because of stronger imports and sourcing some of the demand

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Speaker 1: that we need from abroad. Julia Cornado, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us today. Julia Cornado and AMP Joseph Cohine.

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Speaker 1: We really wanted to put them together. We're bringing Peter

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Speaker 1: Chat well, so we Missooi international head of European rate Strategy,

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Speaker 1: and Jeffrey u UBS Private Banking head at UK Investment

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Speaker 1: Office UBS Private Banking. He joined us right now. Jeff.

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Speaker 1: Let's begin with you, sir, as you look at the

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Speaker 1: forward gardeners from the e c B. It's a delicate

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Speaker 1: shift that they've talked about for a year, but they've

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Speaker 1: dropped that pledge. Your thoughts absolutely, and but also I

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Speaker 1: think there'll be many in the market who are saying, look, guys,

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Speaker 1: and what took you so long? Right? So it's clearly

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Speaker 1: on that some people are not a position for this. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think the ECB will still, you know, taken easy.

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Speaker 1: Let's see what drug has to say. They're going to

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Speaker 1: be keen on trying to avoid any type of a

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Speaker 1: tantrum up ahead. But so far it looks like markets

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Speaker 1: are taking this well. Pitter chat well, as Jeff points out,

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Speaker 1: what did take so long? They've been talking about it

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Speaker 1: for about two halve months. I guess it is relative

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Speaker 1: to expectations. People just did not expect it to happen today,

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Speaker 1: did you we We were not expecting this to go

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Speaker 1: at this point. The only reason that we would expect

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Speaker 1: that it could go here is if the e c

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Speaker 1: B is also ready to make a change to some

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Speaker 1: of their forward guidance on the timing and the pace

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Speaker 1: of interest rate hikes. So that's the way that this.

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Speaker 1: As long as they're clear about this and they prevent

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Speaker 1: the market from from pricing imminent rate heights, then this

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Speaker 1: won't turn into something more significant that leads to wider spread.

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Speaker 1: But just having a lower buon price a higher bund yield,

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Speaker 1: it's not the end of the world. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: frame here after Bloomberg terminal, the sequence of headlines that

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Speaker 1: I have out, I'll put that out on social for

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Speaker 1: all of Bloomberg Radio and Jeff you what it is

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Speaker 1: is just the tone of nine ten eleven headlines. It

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Speaker 1: reminds me of Mark Kearney ten twelve months ago saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, we have to wait until inflation goes up.

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Speaker 1: Did Mr Drag blinked this morning? Um? I wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: he's unblinking, But it's just more you realizing that some

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Speaker 1: things you need to change, and at this point, and

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Speaker 1: also knowing that the market probably is in a better

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Speaker 1: position to actually accept change at this point. So it

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Speaker 1: is really that dynamicism place. Um and again you know

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Speaker 1: the markets take it well, even with further normalization prospect

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Speaker 1: up ahead, then he'll be happy with the results. This

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Speaker 1: is a real baby step though, Jeff. There'll be some

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Speaker 1: listeners that are thinking, what are we getting excited about?

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Speaker 1: What is this all about? As you said, Jeff, about time.

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Speaker 1: But does this set us up for the removal of

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Speaker 1: QA before the end of this year? Um? So, I

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Speaker 1: think he is gradually laying the framework to actually push

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Speaker 1: everyone in that direction, right, But so yes, you know,

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Speaker 1: setting it up that is a clear intent that he's

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Speaker 1: going to be looking at the reaction at the same time,

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Speaker 1: and also bearing in mind financial conditions. Euro's higher on

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't want to enforce it all the way

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Speaker 1: up to one thirty either in the short right, Peter

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Speaker 1: chat well also ter for you are so audience, but

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Speaker 1: let's go There is the ten year German yield near

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Speaker 1: a technical resistance where higher yields really denotes a breakout.

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Speaker 1: I think it's important. I mean, yes, if you look

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Speaker 1: at at a chart you might get concerned that they

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Speaker 1: could go a lot higher from here, but you've got

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Speaker 1: to think about the implication that that would have on

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Speaker 1: financial conditions for the euro Area. And when you're giving,

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Speaker 1: when you're taking away on the one hand, saying that

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Speaker 1: que is not going to be increased, then I think

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Speaker 1: the ECB is likely to also give something back, which

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Speaker 1: is to try and reinforce and push out some of

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Speaker 1: the rate high expectations. So this is why I think

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Speaker 1: I was going up to seventy seventy five basis points.

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Speaker 1: Then it would probably still be viewed as a buying

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Speaker 1: opportunity by investors. So Jeff, get me set up for

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Speaker 1: the news conference that comes in about thirty forty minutes

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Speaker 1: time with ECP President maryo Draki. Is it a hawker

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Speaker 1: shift at seven five Eastern time? And then a dovish

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Speaker 1: news conference forty five minutes later. Um. I think the

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Speaker 1: best news conferences you know will the ones where euro

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Speaker 1: dollar is actually training exactly the same level as when

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Speaker 1: the continents compared to then started markets and now pricing

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Speaker 1: in them to be relatively confish. As long as he

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Speaker 1: actually doesn't push things about that, I think you'll be

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Speaker 1: fine with it. Jeff. What's so important here to me

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Speaker 1: is the tone of the set of headlines. I just

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Speaker 1: put out my screen. They're all different. Jam Ferrells looks

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Speaker 1: different than mine. Of ECB headlines and the colors in

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Speaker 1: in Jeff, I just headlined to headline to headline, they're

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Speaker 1: saying we're going to wait. Explain why they're waiting for

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Speaker 1: more information. Is there just no inflation out there or

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Speaker 1: is it something else? There are inflation expectations as always,

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Speaker 1: and that they need to be anchored, right, So drag

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Speaker 1: has always expressed this uson now let's see how the

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Speaker 1: break evens and move as well. Um that he needs

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Speaker 1: evidence that inflation expectations on that anchored, that they can

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Speaker 1: be sustained for a period of time and then there

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Speaker 1: will be fully ready for a game baby steps in

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Speaker 1: that direction, but he needs more evidence that those expectations

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Speaker 1: are here to stay an extended period waiting running until

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Speaker 1: inflation path has sustainably adjusted. That the language that that

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Speaker 1: that kind of tone is still dovish as far as

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Speaker 1: I agree and Peter chatwell, this is still a dovish

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Speaker 1: European Central Bank under President Trachy. They are not in

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Speaker 1: a rush to remove accommodation. Regardless of this pickup we've

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Speaker 1: seen over the last year for the general economy, I

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Speaker 1: think they're not in a rush to remove accommodation, but

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Speaker 1: the market needs reassurance. And see a lot of these

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Speaker 1: these headlines that you're talking about, they're still pretty wishy washy.

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Speaker 1: So the market doesn't really know what and how long

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Speaker 1: an extended period is. The market doesn't know how quickly

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Speaker 1: rates will go up. And so these are the points

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Speaker 1: that the ECB needs to make much more transparent in

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Speaker 1: their forward guidance or in the press conference going award

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Speaker 1: to prevent there from being what they what they call

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Speaker 1: an unwarranted tiening of monetary conditions. But hold on a minute, Jeff,

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Speaker 1: I remember the Federal Reserve using exactly the same language

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Speaker 1: that the rates wouldn't rise until an extended period of time.

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Speaker 1: Are they just taken a leaf out of the Federal

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Speaker 1: Reserves forward guidance playbook from several years ago? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think if you look at how they said handled rate

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Speaker 1: hikes last year, you know when there was sort of

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Speaker 1: a shift, especially around the March meeting, from not much

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Speaker 1: being priced for suddenly a lot being priced for the

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Speaker 1: market absorbed it. Well, that's a very good playbook to follow.

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Speaker 1: But again, going back to that sustain period, we've seen

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Speaker 1: invasion data surprised to the upsides and surround like June

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Speaker 1: last year. So again that's barely a yeah, barely nine

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Speaker 1: months at this point. They need a bit more time.

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Speaker 1: And the problem Tom that the ECB is going to

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Speaker 1: have an extended period of time for Mario drag is

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Speaker 1: going to be a very different extendard period of time

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Speaker 1: for Yen's Wideman, and I imagine the governing Council is

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Speaker 1: going to be a lot more fragile and broken up

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Speaker 1: divided as we approach your end. This has been wonderful Jeffrey,

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Speaker 1: You Pierre chat well away from their clients to today.

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Speaker 1: We greatly appreciate you being with us with these ECB announcements.

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Speaker 1: Joining us now are really wonderful. Guest, Isaac Boltanski is

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Speaker 1: with a compass point and he is knee deep in

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Speaker 1: the minutia of policy at Washington and particularly financial policy,

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Speaker 1: and joins us now with comments that maybe most of

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Speaker 1: us can understand. Um, Isaac, I'm gonna frame this for

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Speaker 1: the politically accessible, is the senator from Massachusetts against the

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Speaker 1: known world? Uh. For cable TV, it's great to have

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Speaker 1: Senator Warren on. She always creates a motion whether you

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Speaker 1: agree or disagree with her. I get that. But is

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Speaker 1: that as simple as financial regulation is, Dodd Frank, Senator

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Speaker 1: Warren Or is there a greater complexity to what's going

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Speaker 1: on right now? You know, I think you've really hit

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Speaker 1: on something there. The the issue at hand is this

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Speaker 1: regulatory relief bill for banks, and the proponents for this

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Speaker 1: bill argue that it's going to usher in a new

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Speaker 1: wave of lending and and economic growth. The opponents, such

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Speaker 1: as Senator Warren, suggests that it's going to do unleash

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Speaker 1: this sort of mad Max hellscape on the lending environment,

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Speaker 1: and and and hearken back to the predatory lending days

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Speaker 1: of of a decade plus ago. As with almost everything

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Speaker 1: in d C and surely everything in the financial regulatory regime,

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Speaker 1: the truth is far more nuanced and the the bill

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Speaker 1: that's in question here is honestly a very targeted, narrow

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Speaker 1: measured bill that would almost exclusively benefit the country's smallest banks,

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Speaker 1: and generally there I'm speaking about banks below ten bill.

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Speaker 1: In yes, of course, there are examples of larger banks

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Speaker 1: having benefits in this bill as well. Um it raises

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Speaker 1: the UH the city or c car threshold from fifty

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Speaker 1: billion to two d and fifty billion over time, which

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Speaker 1: will provide some modicum of relief for those banks. And

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Speaker 1: it has a custodian bank carve out which should help

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Speaker 1: Sade Street and Bank of New York Mellon Northern Trust.

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Speaker 1: But on balance, this bill is skewed towards benefiting smaller banks,

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Speaker 1: but you wouldn't know that from the rhetoric and the

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Speaker 1: rhetoric here I think is is red hot in part

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Speaker 1: because we're coming up on ten years from the crisis,

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Speaker 1: but also because there are seventeen Democrats right now in

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Speaker 1: the Senate who are supporting this bill, and so it's

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Speaker 1: the first time that we've actually been a bipartisan push

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Speaker 1: to alter the roles. That's what I can't say fair enough.

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Speaker 1: How unusual that is. Yeah, extraordinarily unusual, ISAI? What do

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Speaker 1: you make of the retric then why do we still

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Speaker 1: have this? And it can't just be because of the

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Speaker 1: financial crisis that's gone by. The people think seriously that

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Speaker 1: the regulatory regime that we have right now is good.

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Speaker 1: I think that I think that the inherent complexy of

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Speaker 1: financial policy makes it easier for hyperbole on both sides.

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Speaker 1: And that's why what I think that we're seeing firsthand

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Speaker 1: here UM the explaining the supplementary leverage ratio and its

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Speaker 1: impact the capital management is not exactly a political sound bite,

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Speaker 1: but hitting the bank bill for rolling back Dodd Frank

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Speaker 1: regulations is something that some senators are actually fundraising on

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Speaker 1: right now. You know, I look, Isaac, and I just

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Speaker 1: did this, folks, and you know I knew where I

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Speaker 1: was going, but not really. JP Morgan operating income thirty

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Speaker 1: six billion, on its way to forty five billion. A

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Speaker 1: big bank, PNC Financial of Pittsburgh operating incomes seven billion.

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Speaker 1: So it's Isaac, forty five is compared to seven And

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Speaker 1: the answer is that's a big That's a comparison of

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Speaker 1: a super bank to a big, big, big regional bank.

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Speaker 1: Are we treating all our banks too much the same?

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Speaker 1: Within our legislation, our regulation, within the Washington ballet, it's

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Speaker 1: something where yes, the the simple and unquestionable answer is yes.

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Speaker 1: And I think that UM regulation tends to benefit scale players.

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Speaker 1: They have the capital and the personnel necessary to build

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Speaker 1: the system. Where's the president on that? Does he want

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Speaker 1: to help the small banks and the mere mortal regional banks. Yes?

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Speaker 1: I think there is a bias, and thus far, all

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Speaker 1: we've really seen as the president so far he met

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Speaker 1: with the smallest bankers a few months ago and met

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Speaker 1: with the credit unions a few weeks go, so we

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Speaker 1: haven't seen him decided to meet with the larger players yet.

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Speaker 1: But yes, I think that there is an undeniable bias

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Speaker 1: in DC on both sides of the aisle to help

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Speaker 1: smaller banks. The question here is just how do you

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Speaker 1: define that and what is the legislative vehicle that carries that.

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Speaker 1: I said, this has been the policy push that's happened

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Speaker 1: in the background throughout the last week, front and center

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Speaker 1: has being issues around trade. Your thoughts somewhere this is

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Speaker 1: going and whether we have actually got an administration that

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Speaker 1: ultimately is together on the same page and this is

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Speaker 1: a negotiation tactic that they started the extreme and then

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Speaker 1: they come in. Is that what this is? It appears

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Speaker 1: that once again that framework is playing with the with

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Speaker 1: the signals that there's a softening on the country exemptions

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Speaker 1: for Canada in Mexico as it relates to the terraces.

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Speaker 1: I am still unsure if that is strategy or or

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Speaker 1: bending to the broader pressure. It was striking to see

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Speaker 1: how unified. Both parties were in their opposition in particular

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Speaker 1: because Republicans want to run on the economic benefits of

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Speaker 1: the tax cuts, and there is a real concern that

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Speaker 1: these tariffs would eat into those benefits, and so you

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Speaker 1: can always count on actors in d C looking for

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Speaker 1: their own self interest. Isaac Bill Tansky, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: At the compass Point today, an update there on bipartisan

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Speaker 1: banking legislation. I can't remember when the last time I

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Speaker 1: said this A thrilled death. Cynthia Coon's with us with

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg News, who has been more than patient over the time,

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Speaker 1: over the years and following the drug slash pharmaceutical business.

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Speaker 1: Today's theme, I believe is the distribution of the pharmaceuticals.

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Speaker 1: Cynthia Coon's. What is express Scripts actually do well? This

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Speaker 1: is this takes a long time to explain, so I'll

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Speaker 1: try to keep it quick. But basically, what express Scripts

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Speaker 1: does essentially is manage the drug benefit plans as there

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Speaker 1: used for insurers and payers to determine what drugs to

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Speaker 1: patients actually pay and how much we pay. So express

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Speaker 1: Scripts is a line in the middle. They're considered a middleman,

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Speaker 1: and what they do is they negotiate the drug prices

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Speaker 1: with the actual manufacturers, and they make determinations about what

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Speaker 1: is a preferred draw first year, seconds year. So your

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Speaker 1: co pay is dependent on decisions a lot of times

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Speaker 1: made by Expressed Scripts. And the reason needs to get

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Speaker 1: a little bit tricky is primarily because of exclusivity contracts,

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Speaker 1: and so drug makers, really powerful drug makers can negotiate

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Speaker 1: exclusivity contracts and get preferred status on these formularias, and

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Speaker 1: other drugs that even might clinically be considered better alternative

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Speaker 1: is aren't necessarily getting coveraged. And all of this is

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Speaker 1: happening through a system known as rebating, and drug makers

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Speaker 1: are basically able to give rebates to Express Scripts. I

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Speaker 1: read into a physician the other day that said, we've

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Speaker 1: basically had a tipping point of American fraud in pricing

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Speaker 1: of drugs. Do you know how profitable Express Scripts is

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Speaker 1: by looking at their accounting statements or is it? Is

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Speaker 1: it almost to the point where there's cash flows or

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Speaker 1: agreements or exclusive at ease that we don't observe. It's

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Speaker 1: really hard to know. So it's easy to see, Okay,

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Speaker 1: these are their profits and what theyre etcetera. But really

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Speaker 1: what everyone wants is a little bit of a line

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Speaker 1: of sight into the agreements that how much and you

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Speaker 1: don't know that makers are paying for access and we

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Speaker 1: can't see that. And there are commercial concerns that these

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Speaker 1: guys have longsighted as to why they don't make that clear.

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Speaker 1: So their their negotiations with a big employer like like

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Speaker 1: JP Morgan are obviously going to be different than our

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Speaker 1: small employer, and that's sort of glee and so on.

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Speaker 1: But where it gets really tricky is you have drugs

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Speaker 1: that might be clinically superior and they're fighting or they're

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Speaker 1: even equivalent, um, and they're fighting to get onto formularies

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Speaker 1: and and companies are saying they can't get access and

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Speaker 1: they think that's anti competitive. So we've seen suits along

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Speaker 1: those lines. And that's where did they do this deal

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Speaker 1: because of Jeff Bezos? Is this just about Amazon and

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Speaker 1: everybody's trying to get out in front of Jeff Bezos

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Speaker 1: running a you know, a bulldozer through the industry. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's a very astute observation and it very well may

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Speaker 1: have played into the thinking of what can we do

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Speaker 1: now from sickness perspective, how do we necessarily become something

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Speaker 1: that's more valuable than a standalone ensure, and so that's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily that's a very you know, that's a very

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Speaker 1: smart thought. It's just very hard to know what what

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Speaker 1: Amazon is going to do and how they're going to

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Speaker 1: do it. And I think Amazon's impact, yes, it could

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Speaker 1: uh disintermediate the PBMs in the system. That they also

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Speaker 1: will have a very big impact on drugs and drug pricing,

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Speaker 1: and so there's a whole other dimension to that. So

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Speaker 1: getting ahead of Amazon, yes, that's one way of thinking

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Speaker 1: about it, but we're still in very early innings of

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Speaker 1: knowing what Amazon is going to do and how they're

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Speaker 1: going to disrupt this part of the supply chain. There

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Speaker 1: is a huge dance going on at the moment, Cynthia

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Speaker 1: that we should point out. Signal and Anthem were meant

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Speaker 1: to get together. It didn't happen. Anthem drop express Scripts

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Speaker 1: at the same time Anthem go alone. So essentially you're

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Speaker 1: left with these two that wanted a dance partner and

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Speaker 1: haven't got one, and they need to get bigger. Is

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Speaker 1: that what needs to happen in this space at the moment,

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Speaker 1: Just get bigger and find a dance partner. Well, it's certainly,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like, because that's happening, it's going to

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Speaker 1: continue to happen. I find that these sorts of things

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Speaker 1: become once the bigger. Once players start making moves like

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Speaker 1: this and integrating, other companies start looking at it as

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Speaker 1: um inevitable that that's what they need to do to

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Speaker 1: be competitive. What's very interesting about this integration is it's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily following classic logic. The deals that you cited

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Speaker 1: made more sense than the perspective of okay, we're two insures,

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Speaker 1: we make our businesses bigger. Of course that didn't pass

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Speaker 1: muster with antitrust regulators, judges, et cetera. And so that's

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Speaker 1: why those didn't work out. And so what's happening now

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Speaker 1: is we're seeing a lot of this vertical integration, and

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Speaker 1: we don't know how these are going to work for

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Speaker 1: shareholders necessarily. This Signal Express deal is more of a

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Speaker 1: classical We've seen United Health has um a PBM. Do

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Speaker 1: we know what that joint business model looks like? But

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Speaker 1: when you think of the CBS deal, for example, retail

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Speaker 1: and insurance, what does that look like? How does it

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Speaker 1: benefit the end consumer? We don't know yet. So while

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Speaker 1: this is happening, and because there aren't that many dance

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Speaker 1: partners last, like you say, then it's going to raise

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Speaker 1: questions about how how well these deals are gonna showed

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Speaker 1: us longer term term. Cynthia, thank you so much. I

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Speaker 1: know it'll be a busy day. Cynthia Coon's with Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: News and her work on pharmaceuticals and the major drug

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Speaker 1: companies as well. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or

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Speaker 1: whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom

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Speaker 1: Keene before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg Radio