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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you From House to

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Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello, I'm welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Christen. Today is the first of four

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Speaker 1: special addition episodes tied to Chryl Sandberg's lean In Foundation.

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Speaker 1: That's right in case you haven't heard of Caryl Sandberg.

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Speaker 1: She is the CEOO of Facebook, considered one of the

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Speaker 1: most powerful women in the world, which is a title

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Speaker 1: that you know. I'm sure if there had been ruined

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Speaker 1: the list, we would have also been on their Caroline, um,

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Speaker 1: But we are teaming up to focus in on the

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Speaker 1: book that Sandberg wrote called len In, Women, Work and

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Speaker 1: the Will to Lead. And we're gonna kick off the

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Speaker 1: special four part Friday series with negotiation because if you

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Speaker 1: are in the middle of your career or just starting out,

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Speaker 1: learning how to negotiate as a woman, it's such a

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Speaker 1: crucial skill. In Caroline, I'm embarrassed to say that I

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Speaker 1: really have not done a good job negotiating. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you could say that I haven't done a good job

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Speaker 1: because I've never done it. Yeah. When I was offered

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Speaker 1: my first job, I just took it. I just took it.

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Speaker 1: What about you? Agreed? Also I second that, Um, but

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Speaker 1: I think mine, you know, not that this is an excuse,

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Speaker 1: but honestly, I've been so excited to leave past jobs,

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Speaker 1: you know, And I mean that that has driven like

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Speaker 1: a gratitude aspect of like, yes, thank you, that's more

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Speaker 1: than I made, and I'm so glad to get out

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Speaker 1: of here. I'll take it. Whereas I have a feeling

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Speaker 1: that if we were to ask a lot of men

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Speaker 1: about this, they would say, yeah, of course, I negotiated

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Speaker 1: for my for my first job. I even raised this

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Speaker 1: issue with my boyfriend and asked him if he negotiated

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Speaker 1: for his job, and he kind of laughed and said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I definitely did, you know, because I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: make more money and it was so cut and dry.

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, I mind blowing, Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: so it was so simple. Um, So let's dig into

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Speaker 1: how women can negotiate, because the answer for women of

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Speaker 1: how do you negotiate is not just do it like

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Speaker 1: a man, right, because that's really probably not going to

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Speaker 1: get you the results that you want. And in case

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Speaker 1: do you have lean In or are listening to the

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Speaker 1: audiobook version of it, which you can download over from

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Speaker 1: audible dot com, the book reference for this is chapter three,

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Speaker 1: Success and Likability, and Sheryl Sandberg shares her own story

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Speaker 1: about her fear of negotiation when she was getting the

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Speaker 1: job at Facebook. Yeah, and it it, you know, speaking

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Speaker 1: of mind blowing, the fact that uh, an impressive woman

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Speaker 1: like Cheryl Sandberg wasn't out there negotiating, you know, is

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Speaker 1: quite surprising. But it also makes me feel a lot

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Speaker 1: better that. Okay, this is something that we as women

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Speaker 1: kind of have to force ourselves to do against kind

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Speaker 1: of an instinct, right, And the fact of the matter

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Speaker 1: is is that when women negotiate, we are putting ourselves

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Speaker 1: at a higher social risk of making a negative impression

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Speaker 1: on whomever we're negotiating with. What and that's whether our

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Speaker 1: boss is male or female. Um, But there are plenty

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Speaker 1: of ways to adjust how we approach negotiation that can

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Speaker 1: really factor in those risks and help us get what

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Speaker 1: we want. Because the fact of the matter is, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: if we don't negotiate, we're just cheating ourselves out of cash.

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Speaker 1: And I hate reading these statistics because I know that

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Speaker 1: I've already done this to myself. Yeah, I mean, the

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Speaker 1: cost of not negotiating is years of additional work that

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Speaker 1: you will have to do to make up that salary

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Speaker 1: gap when compared to a coworker who has negotiated. So

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Speaker 1: the example that Margaret A. Neil gives he's the professor

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Speaker 1: of Management at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and

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Speaker 1: the co director of the Executive Program for Women Leaders.

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Speaker 1: One example that she gives is that if two people

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Speaker 1: are offered a job and one negotiates a seven thousand

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Speaker 1: dollar increase over thirty years, that person will be making

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Speaker 1: one hundred thousand more per year. Okay, well, my blood

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Speaker 1: pressure hasn't gone off a little bit at all. Um.

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Speaker 1: And this issue of women negotiating or actually not negotiating,

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Speaker 1: really came up a lot with the publication of Carnegie

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Speaker 1: Melan economists Lenda Babcox book Women Don't Ask, Negotiation and

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Speaker 1: the Gender Divide, which highlighted some striking differences between men

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Speaker 1: and women's workplace negotiation. UM. For instance, she looked at

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Speaker 1: this giant group of MBA's and she found a seven

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Speaker 1: point six difference in the salaries that women were making

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Speaker 1: versus men. And so she started doing some digging and

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Speaker 1: found that fifty seven percent of men had negotiated for

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Speaker 1: that higher salary. Whereas only seven percent of women negotiated,

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Speaker 1: and of those who negotiated, the average salary bump was

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Speaker 1: seven percent over seven percent actually was seven point six percent.

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Speaker 1: And in looking at that discrepancy between salaries, you know,

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Speaker 1: the blame had been placed to a certain extent on

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Speaker 1: institutional sexism. And that's not to say that that doesn't exist,

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Speaker 1: but just the fact that scent of men compared to

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Speaker 1: seven percent of women negotiate, I mean, that is a

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Speaker 1: major gap. Yeah. And if she even looked at beyond

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Speaker 1: the NBA group and she found that even when you

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Speaker 1: control for different professions and educational levels, women working full

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Speaker 1: time who have not taken time off to have kids

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Speaker 1: still earn about eleven percent less than men with equivalent

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Speaker 1: education and experience. So why is that? Yes, we've talked

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Speaker 1: a lot about the gender wage gap, but it negotiation

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Speaker 1: probably has a lot to do with it. So what

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Speaker 1: is going on? Um? This is another thing that Margaret A.

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Speaker 1: Neil is an expert on and she looked into and

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Speaker 1: she gave a really great talk on this that you

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Speaker 1: can find over at Lenan dot org. And she talks

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Speaker 1: about sort of a stereotype threat that's an action and

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Speaker 1: we hear a lot about the stereotype threat when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the gender gap in women in science, and

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Speaker 1: this idea that you know, girls don't might not perform

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Speaker 1: as well on science and math because we internalize this

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Speaker 1: idea that girls read boys do math, we're just not

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Speaker 1: as good at that. And so in a similar way,

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Speaker 1: this assumption that whole women are just not as good

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Speaker 1: as negotiation. Negotiation is kind of a guy thing. We

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Speaker 1: internalize that as well, and so when we walk into

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Speaker 1: our boss's office needing to ask for more cash, we

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Speaker 1: have expectations that are driving behavior, leading us to either

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Speaker 1: not negotiate at all or not negotiate your you well right.

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Speaker 1: She basically says that when you have lower expectations, you

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Speaker 1: get lower outcomes. And we have a lot of fears

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Speaker 1: that that this is rooted in, including coming across as

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Speaker 1: to demanding or greedy or even socially awkward, and so

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Speaker 1: she says that women especially should remain cognizant of three

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Speaker 1: big things before they start negotiating, thinking about, for instance,

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Speaker 1: why am I asking, rather than just focusing on the money.

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Speaker 1: She says that women would benefit from taking a more

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Speaker 1: communal orientation looking at negotiation is a form of problem solving,

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Speaker 1: opening up a conversation to find a solution, rather than

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Speaker 1: just walking in and you know, fist pounding and demanding something. Right,

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Speaker 1: and also rather than just focusing on what you're good

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Speaker 1: at and how the more money would help, you, really

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Speaker 1: demonstrating your concern for your counterpart, whether that's you know,

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Speaker 1: your boss, or your team or your company. And that

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Speaker 1: would tie into the second aspect of how how am

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Speaker 1: I asking for this? So she talked about studies that

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Speaker 1: have found that male evaluators penalized women more than men

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Speaker 1: for single issue negotiation asking for more money because they

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Speaker 1: were perceived as being too demanding and not nice. So

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Speaker 1: instead of just going in and just pointing straight for

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Speaker 1: the money, she suggests communal packaging as well, broadening the

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Speaker 1: scope of your negotiation. Right, but you know what, men

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Speaker 1: weren't the only ones penalizing women. Women also penalized women. Great, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so even you know, it's not even like there's some

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Speaker 1: kind of sister le bond or you know, like I

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Speaker 1: get you girl. No, there's none of that. If you

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Speaker 1: are going in purely saying hey, I need more money

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Speaker 1: than men and women, bosses are going to consider you.

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Speaker 1: You know negative well, in the third point of for

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Speaker 1: whom am I asking? Was something that had never really

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Speaker 1: dawned on me. But Neil talked about how you're really

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Speaker 1: that are off negotiating just for yourself if you're a man.

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Speaker 1: So maybe as a woman, think of yourself more as

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Speaker 1: a representative not only of your own needs, but of

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Speaker 1: other people's needs as well. Yeah, and she Neil points

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Speaker 1: out that women outperformant and representational negotiation between fourteen percent.

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Speaker 1: And so maybe Caroline, you and I should just tag

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Speaker 1: team and when I need to raise you can come

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Speaker 1: in on my bath and represent me. Yeah, because it's

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Speaker 1: it's an entirely different conversation that has to happen if

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Speaker 1: you're a woman. I feel like and you know, as

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Speaker 1: is evidenced by all of this stuff that Margaret Neil

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Speaker 1: is talking about, I mean, you really have to go

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Speaker 1: in and kind of lay it out, as you know,

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Speaker 1: not only I have done this and I've benefited the

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Speaker 1: company this way, but maybe like, how can we help

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Speaker 1: each other? What are the problems that need solving? I

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Speaker 1: can do that, but I need you to help me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And once you adjust that mentality of why I am

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Speaker 1: I asking? How am I doing it, you know, thinking

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Speaker 1: more of a communal approach. You also offers four concrete

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Speaker 1: steps to being more effective at negotiation, the kind of

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Speaker 1: prep work that you need to do, which starts out

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Speaker 1: with just assessing the situation of thinking, Okay, can I

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Speaker 1: have influence on this outcome? Do the benefits outweigh the

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Speaker 1: potential cost of negotiating and going in and making this

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Speaker 1: social risk and asking for more. Yeah, And then she

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Speaker 1: stresses preparation number one, understanding your interests, what you are

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Speaker 1: trying to achieve by doing this negotiation, and to understand

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Speaker 1: the interests and preferences of your counterparts. So don't go

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Speaker 1: in their guns blazing looking out just for yourself. Have

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Speaker 1: in mind how you can help your counterpart. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's probably not too hard to put yourself in your

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Speaker 1: boss's shoes for a minute and think about what their

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Speaker 1: bottom line is, what kind of needs they might have,

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Speaker 1: and consider that rather than as I sometimes have done,

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Speaker 1: you know, mentally trying to prep myself for making an

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Speaker 1: ask something of just coming coming up with you know,

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Speaker 1: defenses of of why they'd be you know, shooting me

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Speaker 1: down to be able to shoot at them back right exactly,

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Speaker 1: And the next step is the ask itself. You want

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Speaker 1: to engage with your counterpart with the knowledge that you

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Speaker 1: have unique information and that they if they didn't need

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Speaker 1: your unique information, they wouldn't need you. They wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: trying to hire you or you know, trying to give

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Speaker 1: you money at all. So you are armed with something unique.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like that's sort of another way of saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, know your value, respect your own value, not

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Speaker 1: just walking in, you know, groveling, but say, hey, you

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Speaker 1: know what I have skills? Yeah, I mean seriously, when

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Speaker 1: you sit down and think about and I'm saying the

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Speaker 1: general you anybody listening, when you sit down and think

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Speaker 1: about all of the things you do during the day.

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Speaker 1: I mean it might be just basic stuff, but when

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Speaker 1: you really look at the bigger picture of all that

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Speaker 1: you do and all that you can do, I bet

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Speaker 1: you are really undervaluing yourself. Yeah. Um. And in terms

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Speaker 1: of like you're talking about Caroline, sort of considering all

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Speaker 1: of those things that you do and all the different responsibilities,

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Speaker 1: big or small, that you might have. Neil then recommends

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Speaker 1: packaging things. Don't negotiate issue by issue, like a line

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Speaker 1: item of like money, vacation, et cetera, because that's going

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Speaker 1: to turn it into a win lose conversation. But instead,

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Speaker 1: if you package the issues, then you can kind of

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Speaker 1: make trades with your boss. You can turn it into

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Speaker 1: rather than a win lose more of an if then,

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Speaker 1: so say you want ten thousand dollars, Well if the

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Speaker 1: boss is like, well, I can give you five, and say,

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Speaker 1: well what if you give me five and two weeks

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Speaker 1: more vacation, kind of moving things around that way, right exactly, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to make it adversarial, right, this is

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Speaker 1: a discussion. You're trying to help each other, and I think,

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Speaker 1: especially if you are a woman, you don't want to

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Speaker 1: make it adversarial because of those, you know, the studies

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Speaker 1: talking about how women do tend to be penalized more

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Speaker 1: for coming off, as you know, very brash and aggressive.

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Speaker 1: So we did find an entire lengthy discussion on Reddit

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Speaker 1: about negotiating and the comments under the piece somebody had

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Speaker 1: basically posted like, women, look, you need to go in

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Speaker 1: there and you need to negotiate. You know, because I

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Speaker 1: present women with a number and a lot of times

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Speaker 1: they just accept it or they awkwardly negotiate. Maybe they

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Speaker 1: don't even have a higher number in mind, and I

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Speaker 1: have all this this sack of money that I could

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Speaker 1: be giving to them, and they're not claiming it. And

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Speaker 1: the comments under it were right in that same vein

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Speaker 1: of like, I did this. I took what was mine,

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Speaker 1: what I deserved, but I did it in a way

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Speaker 1: that wasn't confrontational because in this conversation people were basically

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Speaker 1: trading information about how you know men do that in

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Speaker 1: in a discussion about salary, men are not being like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't think you're valuing my worth. It's more like, well,

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Speaker 1: what about this number? And then they work their way

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Speaker 1: down to something that they're both comfortable with. Were as

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Speaker 1: opposed to a lot of women who, like we have Kristen,

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Speaker 1: I have just been like, okay, thank you. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that we are incompetent in anyway. Sincerely,

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Speaker 1: when I got that first job out offer right out

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Speaker 1: of college, it did not even dawn on me, which

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Speaker 1: makes me wonder whether a if we just need to

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Speaker 1: put a copy of Leanin into the hands of every

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Speaker 1: you know, senior female senior in college. Um, but it

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Speaker 1: was something that was never taught to me in college.

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Speaker 1: It was never anything that uh, my parents, you know,

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Speaker 1: through no fault of their own, but nothing my parents

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Speaker 1: ever talked to me about. I didn't know to do

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Speaker 1: it right. I just had, you know, as a print

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Speaker 1: journalism major in college, I had very low expectations, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I didn't expect to be making any money. And

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Speaker 1: so when I got my newspaper job, the amount that

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Speaker 1: he offered me, although it was not high by any standards,

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Speaker 1: was so much higher than what I expected to get

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Speaker 1: that I pretty much did a back flip. Was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: where do I find sure? Well, especially making that leap,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure from you know. I don't know about you,

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Speaker 1: but when I was in college, I was making lots

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Speaker 1: of hourly wages, and then once you jump into salary

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Speaker 1: and those numbers are just so much bigger. You're like, well,

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Speaker 1: this must be the hundreds of dollars an hour. Where

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Speaker 1: you're like, wait, no, I should like I should go

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Speaker 1: back to that hourly job. But I do feel like

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Speaker 1: negotiation is such an important jumping off point for this

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Speaker 1: four part series that we're doing on lean In, because

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Speaker 1: I know that you and I are not alone in

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Speaker 1: not negotiating and not knowing how to to do it.

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Speaker 1: I know other girlfriends I've talked to who have been

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Speaker 1: in similar boats, like, yeah, I really didn't do that,

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Speaker 1: um and or didn't do it soon enough. Now I negotiate,

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Speaker 1: but I hate that I didn't do it ten years ago. Sure,

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Speaker 1: And what I really want to stress, the thing that

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Speaker 1: opened my eyes most of all in this topic is

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Speaker 1: that you're not having a fight. You're not going in

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Speaker 1: there and being like, hey, give me more money. I

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Speaker 1: deserve it. You're not going in there as some brady,

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Speaker 1: little whiney kid. You are going in there as a competent,

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Speaker 1: you know, highly skilled employee who probably deserves a higher

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Speaker 1: salary because you probably are contributing more than you even

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Speaker 1: think you are. So what you're doing is you're having

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Speaker 1: a discussion with your supervisor or your boss or whoever

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Speaker 1: it is who's responsible for this. You are not going

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Speaker 1: in there having a confrontation. And that is what I

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Speaker 1: really am glad I took away from this because it

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Speaker 1: does reduce that fear factor. Yeah, and the fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is, too is it a hiring manager is

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Speaker 1: probably going to offer you the lowest amount possible. There's

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Speaker 1: wiggle room in there. That was one thing that was

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Speaker 1: in that Reddit thread, which was one reason why we

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Speaker 1: wanted to bring it up because the hiring manager was saying, no, really,

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Speaker 1: I can give you more money. I can give everybody

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Speaker 1: more money, but you have to ask for more money.

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Speaker 1: I'm not just going to hand it over. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to offer you the bottom of the bear. All so, women,

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Speaker 1: it's time for us to stop accepting the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the barrel. And I do highly recommend checking out Margaret

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Speaker 1: Neil's presentation on lean In. It's about twenty five minutes,

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Speaker 1: but it's twenty minutes well worth your time, um, because

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Speaker 1: she lays it out in a in a very succinct

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Speaker 1: kind of way, and it's twenty minutes that could literally

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Speaker 1: pay off for years to come. Yea. So we hope

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Speaker 1: that you've enjoyed this first installment of stuff Mo'm Never

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Speaker 1: told you and lean In. This will be coming out

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Speaker 1: every Friday for the next few weeks. And the next

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Speaker 1: topic that we're going to tackle is fear in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: All right, you're in. You hopefully negotiated your climbing your

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Speaker 1: way up there. Now, what about fear of do I

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Speaker 1: really deserve this? That I really just do all of

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Speaker 1: that good work? Yeah? You did well. Now we want

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Speaker 1: to hear from listeners. We would love for you to

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Speaker 1: over to our Facebook page, Facebook dot com slash stuff

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Speaker 1: mom never told you and tell us your work experiences.

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Speaker 1: Have you negotiated for salary? Have you not and regretted it?

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Speaker 1: Or have you been successful and now you have a

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Speaker 1: pool full of money just like screwge McDuck. Yeah, let

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Speaker 1: us know over on Facebook or tweet us at Mom's

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Speaker 1: Stuff podcast. And if you would like to learn more

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Speaker 1: about lean In, you can also find them on Facebook,

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Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, slash lean in, or over on their

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Speaker 1: website leanin dot org. And I also highly recommend following

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Speaker 1: their tumbler which is lean in dot tumbler dot com.

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Speaker 1: And we will see you next Friday for more on

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Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Doesn't have stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com