1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Two words that strike terror 2 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 1: in the hearts of millions breast cancer. Take a listen 3 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: to this famous for her stunning beauty and her hit 4 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: movies like Laura Croft tomb Raider, as an ambassador of 5 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: goodwill in Africa and Cambodia, and again with her awp 6 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: ed piece in the New York Times and the stunning 7 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: revelation that she had had a preventative double messed deck. 8 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: To me, she wrote, my doctor's estimated that I had 9 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: an eighty seven percent risk of breast cancer. Once I 10 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: knew this was my reality, I decided to be proactive 11 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: and to minimize the risk as much as I could. 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: A few years ago, ovarian cancer took the life of 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: her own beloved mother. She said, she is speaking out 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: for her mother. My children will never have the chance 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: to know her and experience how loving and gracious she was. 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: They have asked if the same could happen to me. 17 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: I've always told them not to worry, But the truth 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: is I carry a faulty gene. In February of this year, 19 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: Jolie underwent the major surgery you're hearing our friends at 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: ABC and more. Jolie underwent an eight hour operation which 21 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: the breast tissue was removed before temporary fillers were put 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: in place. On a personal note, she wrote, I do 23 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: not feel any less of a woman. I feel empowered 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: that I made a strong choice that in no way 25 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: diminishes my femininity. Jolie tested positive for the gene called 26 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: brocca one. Women who carry these mutations have doctors say 27 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: about a sixty five percent risk of developing breast cancer. 28 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: For Jolie and other women like her, the choices are stark, 29 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: very stark. I'm Yancy, Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank 30 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: you for being with us today here at Fox Nation 31 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: in series six eleven for a special edition breast Cancer, 32 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: Breast Cancer Awareness, the stories of breast cancer survivors and 33 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: breast cancer prevention. It's so overwhelming sometimes I don't even 34 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: know where to start. It all became very real to me. 35 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: I'm very sad because someone very special to me is 36 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: not here. It's Ellen Clauren. I'm sure you've heard me 37 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: call on her many many times on Crime Stories. Was 38 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: one of the first two writers reporters that joined me 39 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: when I left HLN to launch Crime Stories and Crime Online. 40 00:02:53,280 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: I love her. Ellen passed away suddenly in the midst 41 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: of a battle with breast cancer. Her death was sudden 42 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: and unexpected. We hear at crime Stories in Crime online 43 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: dot com. Knew her personally as a friend and a 44 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: colleague that gave her all until she was stolen from 45 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: us during treatment for breast cancer. Listen such a great person, 46 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: so full of life. You may have seen her. She's 47 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: been at every single crime Con. Were working at the 48 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: Crime Stories and Crime Online booth, helping you take pictures, 49 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: selling you stuff, giving you information about cases and where 50 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: to go. I miss her so much and crime Con 51 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: will never be the same without Ek. We spoke to 52 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: Ellen's father, Jack Listen well, I was devastated, and not 53 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: only that, but prior to Ellen being diagnosed with breast cancer, 54 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: her older sister Katie was diagnosed with stage zero breast 55 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: cancer about three or four years prior, and Ellen herself 56 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: was primarily responsible for getting Barbara and Katie and ultimately 57 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: Ellen herself to realize that unfortunately, the cancer Jean I 58 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: believe it's called the brockergene had been passed down from 59 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: her mother to Katie and also to Ellen after an 60 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: incredibly i've fight. She shared very little of her ailment, 61 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: her suffering with others, and just when we all thought 62 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: ek Ellen had beaten breast cancer, the news came right 63 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: here in this studio that Ellen had passed away. Her 64 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: father tells us what that felt like. It's horrible. It's 65 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: still horrible. It will always be horrible. It's it's you know, 66 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: I've learned a lot of bad things in a short 67 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: time about what this is like, and what it's like 68 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: for me is you know, not a day goes by 69 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: where I have these strong, i'll call it punches in 70 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: the gut that my daughter is gone, and there's so 71 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: much more I wanted to do with her and for her, 72 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: And it's just very, very unbelievably set with me an 73 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: incredible panel. I'm not only doctors and experts, but breast 74 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: cancer survivors warriors. First, I want to go to Barbara's shop. 75 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: This is Eka Ellen's mother. She's a breast cancer survivor herself. 76 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: Thank you, Barbara. I know it's been described that you 77 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: passed the gene to both of your daughters, Katie and Ellen. 78 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: I don't see it that way. This gene is insidious 79 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:48,679 Speaker 1: and so many people have this gene. You fought breast 80 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: cancer and survived. I did. What How did it hit 81 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,799 Speaker 1: you when you learned Ellen Eka as I called her, 82 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: had breast cancer. Well, I'd be back up a little. 83 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: I was diagnosed last September with left sided breast cancer. 84 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 1: I had chemo therapy through the winter. In early March, 85 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: I had surgery. I had a second round of chemoil 86 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: in the spring, and during the summer I had a 87 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: round of radiation therapy. Now Ellen knew I was in therapy, 88 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: and so she did not share with me her breast 89 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: cancer prognosis, which I completely understand and I have no 90 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: problem with that whatsoever. So I was not aware that 91 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: Ellen had breast cancer until after she died of a 92 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: ruptured brain aneurysm, miss shot. I did not know she 93 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: kept her breast cancer battle a secret from you. What 94 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: I did know, that's fine, is that as she was 95 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: working and just churning out so many incredible stories for 96 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: clim online dot com and reporting here at crime stories 97 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: so often on breaking news, we all knew that you 98 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: had breast cancer and that she was helping you. He was, 99 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: and we would hear that that I'm going to be 100 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: a need to be off today or I'm going to 101 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: be late I've got to do filling the blank from 102 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: my mom right. And there was just never a question 103 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: that her first loyal to, her first duty was to 104 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: helping you. Oh, I know that. And she did so 105 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: much research for me. And the very day that I 106 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: found out she had the interruptured jurist, so she was 107 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: texting to me to get so that I could get 108 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: a medical cannabis to use because I was starting my 109 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: second round of chemo and she felt that maybe I 110 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: could use it during that time. She did a lot 111 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: of research for me. But as you saying, Anthy, I 112 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: thought she was just doing her regular wonder for work 113 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: and I didn't know she was speaking from personal experience. John, 114 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: who is Eka Ellen Kilorin's brother, is with us, John, 115 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: I I write back and forth. I text back and 116 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: forth with your dad sometimes, and I hate to bring 117 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: it up because I know very often those in mourning 118 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: maybe having a perfectly fine day, and then someone brings 119 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: up the loss and it starts you back at ground zero. 120 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: You have to start all over again. But I want 121 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,599 Speaker 1: to tell you and Barbara just how much we have 122 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: prayed for you and how beloved Eka was and is 123 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: to us. When did you learn about your sister's breast cancer. Well, 124 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: as my mom had said she wouldn't, she wouldn't necessarily 125 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: she was indirect about what she was going through because 126 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: of the she was able to sort of hide her 127 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: diagnosis and the work she was doing because of my 128 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: mom's diagnosis, and also because of my sister Katie, our 129 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: older sister, Katie's prior diagnosis, and so, as my mom says, 130 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: we thought that the work she was doing was largely 131 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: brought about by their experience. UM, you know she had 132 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: had I did know that she had had a what 133 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: I was told was a preventative mitecton me month earlier, 134 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: even a year earlier. I'm not sure of the timeline U, 135 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: and that it was based on I was. Her story 136 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: was that that was just being caut an abundance of 137 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: caution because of my mom experience and because of Katie's experience. UM, 138 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: I didn't find out that she was that her battle 139 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: was happening until right at the very end up on 140 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: out from Katie. And I appreciate you saying, Nancy, that 141 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: sort of speaking the caution that it's difficult to sort 142 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: of revisit the moment again, but to be honest, I 143 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: as my dad had said in zom that has my 144 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: mom has said it's h It's still fresh every day, 145 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: So it really doesn't hearing about it doesn't sort of 146 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: set me set me back in any way, because I 147 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: to lose someone like that so abruptly and to sort 148 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: of find out post facto that she was struggling more 149 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: than she was fighting something greater than you were even 150 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: aware of, is truly shocking. And I'm still in shocking 151 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: about it. And I don't feel any sort of It's 152 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: been six months since she passed, and I don't feel 153 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: really any further away from it. But just the fact 154 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: that you know this work she was doing, and she 155 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: was very active and assisting, doing research and reaching out 156 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: to other either survivors or women battling breast cancer, just 157 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: shows how she, even in the midst of a of 158 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: her really terrible struggle and this very frightening thing, she 159 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: was putting other people first and and and really sort 160 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: of doing and fighting the fight for them. And that 161 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: sort of adds to the tragedy of her Abara loss 162 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Ellen passed away abruptly and 163 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: suddenly as she was getting treatment for her breast cancer um, Barbara, 164 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: was it during radiation or chemo that the anurism occurred 165 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: that Ellen's and that she was it was during chemo 166 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: um uh and um she was in New York and 167 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: um they called her. One of her friends that had 168 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: gone with her called to Kelly that she had had 169 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: a seizure and I said, well, okay, but what caused 170 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: the seat sure and um. So then she stated, is 171 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: it okay for you to speak with the doctor, which 172 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: of question, of course it was. So it was during chemo. Um, 173 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: during when she was in treatment for chemo. But as 174 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: and when we all go to New York very quickly 175 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: um um as we all found out it had um 176 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: it was the what she had died of was the 177 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: ruptured brain aneurysm. But she was To answer your question, 178 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: it was during chemo rather than radiation that she recovered. 179 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: Joining me. Two incredible doctors that have broken their schedules, 180 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: and you can only imagine. These are breast cancer specialist 181 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: doctor William J. Gratis, shar Betsy Branson, Professor a breast oncology, 182 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: Professor of Medicine, Chief Division of Hematology and Oncology at 183 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: Northwestern On Twitter at doctor W. Gratis Shar also with me. 184 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: Doctor Hope asked Rugo, professor of Medicine UCSF Helen Diller 185 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:12,359 Speaker 1: Family Comprehensive Cancer Center in San Francisco, breaking their incredible 186 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: schedule of surgeries of breast cancer patients and survivors, to 187 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: speak out today also with me, in addition to other guests, 188 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: our friend and colleague, renowned psychologist joining us from Manhattan, 189 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: and breast cancer survivor Karen Stark to doctor Gratis Sharp, 190 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: thank you so much, doctor and doctor Rugo for being 191 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: with us. Doctor Gratis Sharp, have you noticed that so 192 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: often breast cancer warriors keep their battle a secret? Why 193 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: is that? Well, I don't know that all patients do that. 194 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: I think some patients rely on the support of family 195 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: and friends when they go through it. There are others 196 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: who want to remain private. Then they don't want to 197 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: be viewed by others in any different sort of way. 198 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: So I think it's an individual decision. Patients cope with 199 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: their illness in different ways, depending on who they are, 200 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: and I don't think there's one pattern that fits all patient. 201 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: You know, doctor Rugo joining me, Doctor Hope, s Rugo 202 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: joining us from San Francisco. Doctor Rugo again, to thank 203 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: thank you so much to both of our doctors joining us. 204 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: I find that very often treated differently than some other ailment, 205 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: like Okay, I've got kidney stones, or I've got a 206 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: heart problem, or I broke my ankle. There's something about 207 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: breast cancer. It seems to be more secretive to the 208 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: patient and I'm not understand. I'm not clear why, and 209 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: I wonder if that has something to do with why 210 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: so many women don't get tested. I think that that's 211 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: a very very good point. I think there is some 212 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: of a stigma associated with being diagnosed with a cancer, 213 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: particularly I see that in my young patients, where they're 214 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: worried about the impact on the school families, their kids, 215 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: and their community and somehow thinking they're less capable or 216 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: less able, or that there we see this also some 217 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: fault involved in them in the diagnosis itself. I've seen 218 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: that also. I think that people feel that reactions to 219 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: people around them can be that of fear and anxiety 220 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: for themselves, so that the patients hide it because they 221 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: don't want to deal with that. The other thing I've 222 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: noticed is that when people will share their diagnosis, that 223 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: a lot of times their friends meaning well will share 224 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: with them bad stories, and that can actually be very 225 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: stressful as well. So I think that there are a 226 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: number of reasons for work. For example, I've had patients 227 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: who worked very carefully to wear wigs and to go 228 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: in every day to hide it from work because they 229 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: felt that it would negatively impact their work situation. We 230 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: really work on trying to make this more open, and 231 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: I think some of the stories you've shared go a 232 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: long way to try and help people feel less of 233 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: a stigma with the diagnosis. But the issue about when 234 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: you go and have your screaming is even more complicated. 235 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of fear for finding 236 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: something and what that will mean, and that fear often 237 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: keeps people from doing screening or coming in when they 238 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: feel alone. I actually started crying while you were talking, 239 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you why. My next guest is Karen Stark, 240 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: and it was her idea some time ago to formulate 241 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: and create a breast cancer awareness program. She was to 242 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: join with ek and producing our program, and Ellen did 243 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: not make it to today. Karen Stark, you, along with 244 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: Barbara and John, are going to have to speak for Ellen. 245 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: Your cancer battle goes back and we have really been 246 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: through it halfn't we? Yes, Nancy, we have. It's so 247 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: hard to talk about Ellen. And we became close because 248 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: we were talking about doing the awareness and it just 249 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: seemed like it was so essential to get people to 250 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: be not only get people to be aware, but also 251 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: to have then not run away from the fact that 252 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: they had breast cancer. And Ellen oh Well was so brave. 253 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,239 Speaker 1: She was diagnosed with a type of breast cancer that 254 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: was very frightening, and we talked about what to expect 255 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: until this day. I feel like the last time I 256 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 1: talked to her was when she was starting to have chemo, 257 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: and I told her, You're gonna be fine. I went 258 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: through it. You know it's You'll be maybe a little sick, 259 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: but it will be over before you know it. And 260 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: of course what happens with someone that you care so 261 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: much about the eyes is that you feel like, why 262 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: did I say that? You know, like it just feels 263 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: so wrong. Oh, Karen, no, I disagree. You gave her 264 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: additional strength and courage to keep going. You did. We 265 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: all did here. And even though she kept her battle 266 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: secret from her mom, who was battling breast cancer at 267 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: the time, and her brother, she knew that she had 268 00:19:54,880 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: their love, their very very deep love. Karen's dark joining me. 269 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: Your battle has gone on for years. It would seem 270 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: like once one thing was cured, then it would come back. 271 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Karen Stark and our cut. Five 272 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: years ago, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. My immediate 273 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: reaction was disbelief. Went through six different surgeries and was 274 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: taking to my spin. After five years, I finally felt 275 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 1: like I was cancer free. It was time to celebrate, 276 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: much too everyone's surprise, I discovered that it had reoccurred. 277 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: Your cancer came back, and it was worse. Karen Stark, 278 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 1: as I recall, see when did your cancer battle start 279 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten? Oh my goodness, Yeah, I 280 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: just been friends at a very long time, Anthy and 281 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: I remember when you told me and everything you went through, 282 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: and did your cancer start on your left breast? Yeah 283 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: it was. It was always my left breast. But the 284 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: only reason that I discovered that I had cancer again, 285 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: and this is really important, I think, is that I 286 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: had this instinctive feeling even though everybody told me, all 287 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: the doctors, not that they meant me any harm, but 288 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: they said, there's no reason to believe it will be 289 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: in the other breast. So I listened initially, but I 290 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: kept feeling like I wanted to do a bilateral mastectomy. 291 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until Angelina Joelie. What is a bilateral 292 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: bilateral is when you take off this breath. And when 293 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: I was diagnosed, they only did one breast because it 294 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,959 Speaker 1: was only in one breast, and they said that you know, 295 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: I had stage one, everything would be fine, I didn't 296 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: need chemo and I should just stick with that. And 297 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: I really felt I just had this feeling that I 298 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: didn't want to have my other breast. I couldn't understand 299 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: what the reason was. And I understand it all surgery 300 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: is a risk. Oh, Karen, I remember it like it 301 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: was yesterday. You and I went round and round about 302 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: whether you should have the right breasts removed. That was it. 303 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: That's right. But here's the thing, Nancy, this is just 304 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: so incredible to me is that until Angelina Joe Lee 305 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: actolutely became went public and talked about what she did 306 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: prophylactically to make sure she didn't have breast cancer or 307 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: any kind of cancer, I felt like I, no matter who, 308 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: including women, doctors would say to me, no, they didn't 309 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: want to do the surgery on me, that it was 310 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: ridiculous and a big risk, and I finally asked her 311 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: only to Angelina Jolie could guide surgeons who were willing 312 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: to go ahead and read. Okay, I remember all of this, 313 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: and I remember adding my vote which you asked for 314 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: Karen Stark, that you should have a double message to 315 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: me at the beginning. Why because I was acting out 316 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: of fear. I was afraid. I want to go to 317 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: doctor Hope s Rugo, Professor Madison U C. S. F. 318 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: Helen Diller Family Conference of Cancer Center in San Francisco, 319 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: and you can find her on Twitter at Hope Rugo Rugo, 320 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: doctor Rugo. Mine was a knee reaction when I said, Karen, 321 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: you should have a double message to me right now. 322 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: That's probably overreacting. Would you agree? Yes? I would, And 323 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: I think that it's so important to really think about 324 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: the individual situation. It's patient has a braca mutation. For example, 325 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: as we were talking about earlier, the risk of getting 326 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: another breast cancer can be quite high, and in that 327 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: situation a patient may end. In many cases, we strongly 328 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: recommend consideration for removing both of the breasts, and then 329 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: we offer reconstruction, which of course is very important as well, 330 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: But there are situations where removing the other breast really 331 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: doesn't benefit you at all, and that's in the majority 332 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: of women, or in situations where doing a mask sectomy 333 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: primarily to treat a breast cancer may actually cause more 334 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: complications for the patient and has been shown not to 335 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: improve survival. So, for example, if you have a breast 336 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: cancer where you know you're going to need radiation after 337 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: either a lumpect to me where you conserve the breast 338 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: or a mask sectomy, it actually can cause more complications 339 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: if you do the mass ectomy for your reconstruction if 340 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: you don't need to do it. We have very good 341 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: screening now, and you know, some people who don't have 342 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: a mutation will get a second breath cancer and the 343 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: other breast, but that's often also very treatable, so I 344 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: think we have to be sort of balance it for 345 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: the patients. I also have patients who definitely do not 346 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: need bilateral mass ectomies, but there's a lot of anxiety 347 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: about screening biopsies. They don't want to be having MRIs 348 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: alternating with mammograms, and in those situations it may be 349 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: that more surgery than you absolutely need is still the 350 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: right choice for the patient, But in the majority of 351 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: patients that's not true. Doctor William Gratishar is with us 352 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: from the Betty Branson He's the Betty Branson Professor. He 353 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: is a professor of breast oncology. He is at Northwestern University. 354 00:25:52,640 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: Doctor Gratishar, Why would someone young and otherwise healthy have 355 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: an aneurism during their chemo? Is there something about chemo 356 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: that would cause that? Well, I was listening to that description, 357 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: and you know, coming coming at this when the patient 358 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: is not your own, it's difficult to make any concrete 359 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: common but you know, more likely than not, it had 360 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to do with her breast cancer, her treatment 361 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: via chemotherapy or radiation. It could very well have been 362 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: just a coincidence that she also had an aneurysm. Chemotherapy 363 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: does not cause aneurysms, Radiation doesn't really cause aneurysms. Breast 364 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: cancer doesn't cause so it's just an unfortunate circumstance based 365 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: on what I can believe the description Time stories with 366 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. You know, recently I read an article. I 367 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: know you hate it. Both you and doctor Rugo must 368 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: hate it. When you have a patient say I read 369 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: an article or they say I googled, And I wonder 370 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: what the doctor thinks when I say I googled. I 371 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: wonder if they just tune out automatically, or if they 372 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: stick with it and hear what I googled. But I 373 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: read an article alleging that mammograms are really not the 374 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: litmus test for breast cancer. I find that hard to believe. 375 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't want to believe it. But what do 376 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: you make of that assertion, Doctor grandishar well, I don't 377 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: know what the context was. I think we have to 378 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: look at the tools that we currently have available, and 379 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: no one, I think, would say that mammograms are perfect. 380 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: No one. I'm sure doctor Rugo wouldn't say that either. 381 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: But it's the best tool we have that's been validated 382 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: as a screening measure, and we recognize that even with 383 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: the best tools we have, we still miss some breast cancers. 384 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: There are other extremes, you know, some people want to 385 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: get MRIs and a variety of other tests, but the 386 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: problem there lies that they can be supersensitive finding all 387 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: kinds of things that are absolutely unimportant, leading to unnecessary 388 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: biopsies and further evaluations. So mamograms still remain the best 389 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: tool we have that's currently available, and of course everybody's 390 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: looking to try and optimize those or develop new technologies 391 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: that will make it easier to detect breast cancer. And 392 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: to that end, you know, there's been computer assisted imaging 393 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: and a variety of other tools that are being evaluated, 394 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: but today it's still a mammogram. Okay, I just heard 395 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: Nancy jump in. I want to speak to that for 396 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: a moment. That is true, the best is a mamogram. 397 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: But my breast cancer never showed up in a mamogran. 398 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: It was only when they did an actual snogram on 399 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: me that they were able to find three tumors, and 400 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: they were three tumors because I had had a mamogram 401 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: and they hadn't picked it up six months to be 402 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: I think that's such an important point, really an important point. 403 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: This is Hope Prugo that most of the cancers that 404 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: have the that are the most aggressive or have worse 405 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: outcome or need more intensive treatment, or what we call 406 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: interval cancers, they happen in between imaging and if you're 407 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: young and have dense breasts, you may not see these 408 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: tumors at all, and I'm surprised how many post amount 409 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: of plausa. Women have dense breasts as well. So if 410 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: you feel a lump and you feel something is wrong, 411 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: that absolutely needs to be evaluated. And it's so important 412 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: for women to be aware of their breasts and to 413 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: examine them, not in any clinical way, but just understand 414 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: what your breasts feel like and evaluate them once a 415 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: month or so. That helps you a lot, because you know, 416 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: sometimes these cancers just show up with a lump and 417 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: they don't already even seen on the mamogram you had 418 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: left things. We're hearing our computer assistant imaging. If anybody 419 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: knows a better way to say that, I don't know. 420 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: Is that three D? A three D mammogram? Is that 421 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: what that means? Because those exist? They're okay, good, I'm 422 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: making a wild guess here. Look, I'm a j D, 423 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: not an m D. I need all the help I 424 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: can get doctors. So you've got the three D mammogram, 425 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: you have blood tests that can determine if you have 426 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: the b r C A one gene. Sonograms. You just 427 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: heard doctor Rugo and doctor Grandish are speaking to mammograms 428 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: and sonograms. What more can we do I Nancy, this 429 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: is Barbara again. Man interrupt jump in Bobara, this is 430 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: Ellen's mom again. I just want to say that my 431 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: breast cancer was found on mammogran, my annual one. That's 432 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: how it was found. So I still think they're very important. 433 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: And I do also want to agree with doctor who 434 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: says that the chemo for Ellen probably had nothing to 435 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: do with her death. And that was kind of what 436 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: we were told by the neurologist at the hospital. So 437 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: though she was being treated for sure and was in chemo, 438 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: I was going through a tough chemo because now I've 439 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: been through two when I understand them better, that's not 440 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: what she died of. And like I said, but mammograms 441 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: are very important, and mine was found on memogrant, not 442 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: the same as Karen's. That was a different experience. And 443 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: there is a regular mammogram and a diagnostic mammogram. I'm 444 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: not really sure why you have to ask for a 445 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: diagnostic mammogram. Why why do you have to ask for 446 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: the diagnostic doctor grandishar Well, they do extra views. A 447 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: diagnostics mammograms had more limited views and it usually means 448 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: that it is routine, there's nothing suspicious keep in mind, 449 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: when you get exposed to mammograms, you're getting radiation. So 450 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: when they do the additional views, which both take more 451 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: time expose you to more radiation. There's also a sense 452 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: of urgency because the clinician or even the patient has 453 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: detected something that they think is suspicious, so that is 454 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: additional images that need to be done, whereas the screening 455 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: mamogram is more limited and you don't want to get 456 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: diagnostic mammograms on every patient, doctor Rugo. How when you're 457 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: torking about radiation, a lot of people don't want a 458 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: mamogram or an X ray because of radiation. How severe 459 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: is the risk the radiation when you're getting a mammogram. 460 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: This is an exceedingly low risk. The amount of radiation 461 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: is very small. It's very focused, and you know, you 462 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: always have to weigh benefit versus risk, and you think 463 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: about all the times we're in airplanes being radiated, and 464 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: in this situation you're having something which might help with 465 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: early diagnosis in the right setting. Well, doctor Rugo, I 466 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: just want to tell you something. I appreciate what you 467 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: just said because I nearly tore the throat out of 468 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: a dentist the other day. That want to take an 469 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: X ray on my twins. I'm like, oh, hl no, 470 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: because they'll get radiation. Now I feel like a big 471 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: horse's rear end because I'm hearing what you're saying. There's 472 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: another aspect. People women do not want mass act means 473 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: they don't want to lose their breasts. And there's another 474 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: concern and take a loaden to our friend Barry Peterson 475 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: our cut five with CBS, women say one of the 476 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: most difficult things about chemotherapy for breast cancer is losing 477 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: their hair. When the treatment kills cancer cells, it kills 478 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: healthy hair cells right along with it. But for many 479 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: women it doesn't have to happen. There's a technique called 480 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: cold caps, used for decades in Europe, but almost unknown here. 481 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: These brave women took us along their journey to save 482 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: their hair and with it, they say their identity. And 483 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: one of those women is our friend Karen Stark. Take 484 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: a listen to Karen and our cut three. I didn't 485 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: want to have one more thing that I had no 486 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: control over and the idea that I might I could 487 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: still be me, I could still look in the mirror, 488 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: I could still see myself and feel good about myself 489 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: was very very important to make. It has to be 490 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: fitted tightly on the patient's head to make good contact 491 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: with the scalp. You can't die your hair, you can't 492 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: cut your hair, you can't you know, comb, You have 493 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: to be very careful how you wash it. And there's 494 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: just so many rules and more. Ice caps have to 495 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: be frozen to an incredibly called subzero temperature using either 496 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: a special freezer or dry ice. Your head is being numbed, 497 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: so it's kind of like an ice cream headache at first. 498 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: And the caps have to be rotated on the patient's 499 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: head every thirty minutes to ensure that they keep the 500 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: right coal temperature. I want women to know about this. 501 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: It's so important to be able to maintain some normalcy 502 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: in your life. You're not just saving your life, you're 503 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: saving your hair. Karen Stark, your battle that's gone on 504 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: for so long, and here you are a survivor, a 505 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: warrior speaking out. Could you describe for us the coal 506 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: cap process and what it meant to you. Well, you know, 507 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: Nancy being a psychologist, and I wanted to speak to 508 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: that as well. The fact that when you get a 509 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 1: breast cancer diagnosis, it's really interesting to think about where 510 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: I am today, where I could speak about it so freely, 511 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: and where I was in two thousand and ten when 512 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: it's there's something about it that's shameful because it's your breath. 513 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 1: We don't go around the exposing a breast, talking about 514 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: a breast, and all of a sudden you're telling people, 515 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: if you choose to, that you had breast cancer. And 516 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: it's the combination of cancer, the sea word, that horrible 517 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: thing that no one should ever talk about back in 518 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: the day. And then it's your breath that make it 519 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: most difficult, at least for me. And when I first 520 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 1: found out, all I could think about, which sounds terrible, 521 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: but you know, how could I lose my breast? And 522 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: I didn't need chemo that first time, so they did 523 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: something on me called nipple sparing, where they save your nipples, 524 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: and they saved my nipples, but they took away my breasts, 525 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: and I felt like, well, I was still going to 526 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: have a breast somehow that would be mine. After I 527 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: decided to go and remove my second breast. What's fascinating 528 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: is that I listened to my instincts. I went I 529 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: pursued five years of trying to get that other breast removed, 530 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: and when I did, they sound in my nipples that 531 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: I had cancer again. And it's very rare. It's really 532 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,479 Speaker 1: unusual that it was worse cancer than the first time. 533 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: So I did listen to my instincts. I wanted to 534 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 1: include that. But part of saving my hair that second 535 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: time was I'm a psychologist. I didn't want to lose 536 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: my hair and wear something a wig or something around 537 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,959 Speaker 1: my head and had people looking at me and saying, 538 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: how is she doing? How is she feeling. I wanted 539 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: my patients to be able to talk to me about themselves, 540 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: not about me, and it was really important that I 541 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: saved my hair for that reason, and also too, as 542 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: I said in that video, have some sense of control. 543 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: I really concentrated on exactly. And I give all the 544 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: credit to not only care and Start for speaking out 545 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: about her very prolonged battle and the cold Cat process. 546 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 1: But we have with us right now, doctor Hope Rugo, 547 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: and she's at Twitter at Hope Rugo, who got the 548 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: cold Cat process approved in the US. They had it 549 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:26,760 Speaker 1: in Europe, but not here, Doctor Rugo. I'm so grateful 550 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: to you on behalf of so many women that have 551 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: taken advantage of the cold cat process. It's really incredible, 552 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: you know that, right, what you did, well, I think 553 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: that you know a lot of people wanted to have 554 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: cold cats available and we were so lucky. Actually, I 555 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: had a patient who interestingly is a lawyer, and she said, wait, 556 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: how do I lose my hair? This is about fifteen 557 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: years ago, and I found this company in Sweden. Why 558 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: don't you just import the machine? And I was like, well, 559 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, we can't do that. There's a lot of 560 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: regulations here. But it started us on a path of 561 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: working on the first trial actually to look at cold 562 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: caps in a prospective manner with FDA's guidance, to see 563 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: both the safety and effectiveness of using cold caps. And 564 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: since that time, started by a patient where many of 565 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: our maybe most of our best ideas come from, we 566 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: were able to get FDA clearance for two automated cooling systems, 567 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: and huge awareness and of phenomenal woman Bethany Horntall, who 568 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,280 Speaker 1: helped us get philanthropic funding for our study started actually 569 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,399 Speaker 1: helped to start an organization which she now runs called 570 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,720 Speaker 1: Here to Stay, that provides financial assistance for those women 571 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: who would like to use cold caps and can't afford it, 572 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: so it's really gone. Were incredible, The cost is overwhelming. 573 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, Christie Missouri with me Emmy 574 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: Award winning investigative reporter. Could you just give us the 575 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 1: stats on breast cancer now in twenty twenty two, it's 576 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: estimated among women two hundred and eighty seven thousand plus 577 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: new cases, eight hundred and fifty nearly two hundred and 578 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: eighty eight thousand correct, two hundred and eighty eight thousand 579 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: new cases of invasive breast cancer will be tracked, and 580 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: there will be over forty three thousand deaths. Christie, I've 581 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: got so many questions about the stats, but I feel 582 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: I have to speak to our survivors. Karen Stark, what 583 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: is your message today to women listening and men? I 584 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: think the most important thing, as I keep saying, is 585 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: really follow what feels right for you, and everyone is 586 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: very different. Karen plays for what feels right with me. 587 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to even know, so I have to 588 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: get dragged in for a mammogram because I don't want 589 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: to know. But I have to know because I want 590 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: to be here for the twins, So following my instinct 591 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: would be putting my head in the sand, in my button, 592 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 1: the air. That's me. But give me something else that's 593 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: not just you, that's lots of people. And you have 594 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: to go because this is your life, your one life, 595 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: and the sooner you know what's going on, the sooner 596 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: something can be done. You want to catch something as 597 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: soon as you can and make sure that you do 598 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: whatever it takes to survive. Karen start. You want to 599 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: survive and be with your twins. Right, You're right, Karen 600 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: as usual, Karen start with us. You can find her 601 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 1: online at Karen Stark dot com. That's Karen with a S. 602 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: John Kiloren, our friend, Eka's brother and Barbara shot her mom, 603 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,240 Speaker 1: along with the incredible doctor Rugo and doctor Gratishar Christy 604 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: Mazurk Nancy Grace signing off