1
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,600
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x M Triumph

2
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:14,200
Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Victoria was killed on August four,

3
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,880
Speaker 1: right around her tenth birthday. The whole thing is beyond

4
00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,600
Speaker 1: anyone's conception that this could happen, especially to a little

5
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,439
Speaker 1: ten year old child. According to her autopsy, after she

6
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,920
Speaker 1: was strangled and killed, Victoria was then stabbed and dismembered.

7
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,800
Speaker 1: The medical examiner wrote, some of her vital organs were

8
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,640
Speaker 1: found in a plastic bag. This is horrible, but it

9
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,240
Speaker 1: appears that she died from strangulation. According to the medical

10
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,479
Speaker 1: examiner's report, sometime before she was killed, the ten year

11
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 1: old suffered abuse and contracted a sexually transmitted disease. There

12
00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,240
Speaker 1: was evidence of sexual abuse, both in terms of rectal trauma.

13
00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,440
Speaker 1: Her mother, Michelle Martin's, is now charged with Victoria's death.

14
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,280
Speaker 1: Martin's boyfriend, Fabian Gondalas is also charged with killing the child.

15
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,920
Speaker 1: His cousin, Jessica Kelly, is the third suspect in this case.

16
00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,080
Speaker 1: It was a hot August day when in the body

17
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:06,280
Speaker 1: of a ten year old little girl, Victoria Martin's, was

18
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:12,440
Speaker 1: found in an apartment building. What happened, What we know

19
00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 1: is that her body, this ten year old little girl

20
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:27,319
Speaker 1: was wrapped in a blanket in this apartment, and we

21
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:35,880
Speaker 1: know that she was partially dismembered. What happened? What led

22
00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:42,959
Speaker 1: up to a ten year old little girls dismemberment, her death,

23
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:48,400
Speaker 1: her body being disposed of? I Nancy Grace, this is

24
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,080
Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want

25
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,440
Speaker 1: to go straight out to John Day, lawyer, every now

26
00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 1: lawyer in the Mexico jurisdiction. John, how did you get

27
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,400
Speaker 1: involved in this investigation in case? Nancy, I am a

28
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 1: former prosecutor and a criminal defense attorney, and I also

29
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,760
Speaker 1: serve as the on air legal analysts for the local

30
00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 1: ABC station in Albuquerque, KOAT, and we've been following this

31
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:25,519
Speaker 1: in great detail because obviously it's it's a horrifying crime.

32
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,079
Speaker 1: Crime investigators and lawyers and people at the courthouse who

33
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,000
Speaker 1: have seen horrifying crimes over the years to say this

34
00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 1: is the worst that they've ever seen. You know, John Day, again,

35
00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, along with Joe Scott Morgan, Dr.

36
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:44,080
Speaker 1: Brian Russell from Investigation Discovery and Crime Online investigative reporter

37
00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,919
Speaker 1: Ellen Coilauren, John, I want to go to the discovery

38
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,960
Speaker 1: of her body. That is where all murder investigations start.

39
00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:01,000
Speaker 1: Tell me the conditions of that discovery. So I've I've

40
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,920
Speaker 1: talked to people who have seen the lapel video, the

41
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,960
Speaker 1: police officers lapel video. And you show him coming up

42
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,960
Speaker 1: the stairs to this apartment in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and

43
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,400
Speaker 1: you see him going into this this disheveled apartment, and

44
00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,040
Speaker 1: you see him going into a bathroom. And apparently what

45
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,160
Speaker 1: you see on that lapel video is the thing that

46
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,160
Speaker 1: horrifies people the most. It's this little girl who had

47
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,080
Speaker 1: just turned ten the day before. Um, she's in a

48
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:35,960
Speaker 1: bathtub and her body is on fire, clearly, clearly, Joseph

49
00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:42,080
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, death investigator. A haphazard attempt to

50
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 1: hide the evidence. First of all, we typically see bodies

51
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: placed in bathtubs. That is an amateur's measure to control evidence.

52
00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 1: So blood fluid, whatever evidence it may be related to

53
00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 1: the murder are contained in the bathtub, not soaked into

54
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 1: carpet or rug fiber, not on the walls, and perhaps

55
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,640
Speaker 1: mistakenly believe that they can just wash it all down

56
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,680
Speaker 1: the drain. Joe Scott, are you surprised, No, No, I'm not.

57
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 1: Nancy and this sounds like something that was not very

58
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,200
Speaker 1: well planned out. Um. And even in their attempts to

59
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:32,360
Speaker 1: uh maybe destroy evidence, um, they create more evidence along

60
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,719
Speaker 1: the continuum that we can follow. It just makes it

61
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,479
Speaker 1: a little bit more difficult to follow. But no, this

62
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,240
Speaker 1: kind of random haphazardnus that goes into this, Uh, it's

63
00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,280
Speaker 1: it's not it's not surprising at all. They didn't take

64
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,280
Speaker 1: their time with this too, dispose of this, um, the

65
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 1: sweet little girl's body, uh in a way that's more methodical.

66
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 1: They just did it right there, Uh, in this filthy apartment.

67
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 1: We're talking about a two year old little girl, a

68
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:06,080
Speaker 1: ten year old, beautiful girl. That's the age of my twins, John,

69
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 1: David and Lucy right now. And at that point in life,

70
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 1: I mean I did they still believe Santa Claus visits.

71
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 1: They still slip their tooth under their pillow at night.

72
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 1: I mean, they're scrubbed in sunshine. Their whole life is

73
00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,440
Speaker 1: in front of them. They still believe good things can

74
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:36,719
Speaker 1: happen to them. To John Day, a veteran New Mexico lawyer, John,

75
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,240
Speaker 1: what do we know about Victoria? She just turned in?

76
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: I know that well, the photos of this girl are

77
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it's heartbreaking to see them now because I mean,

78
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:53,440
Speaker 1: she is just was just the cutest, most adorable thing,

79
00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 1: and you're trying to figure out how she's how she

80
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,800
Speaker 1: looks that happy in these photos when clearly she's existing

81
00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,719
Speaker 1: in this world of darkness. I mean, the stories about

82
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 1: her from school were that she was engaged, she was sweet,

83
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,480
Speaker 1: she was played with other kids. There were no outward

84
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,120
Speaker 1: signs apparently of anything. And of course that's because kids

85
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 1: are so good at trying to live a normal life

86
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,880
Speaker 1: when their home life it's obviously a living hell. But

87
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 1: she was outwardly just the sweetest thing to justice got

88
00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,919
Speaker 1: Morgan death investigator. We're listening to John Day on New Mexico.

89
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,400
Speaker 1: Lawyer described what was seen on the little pell cam

90
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 1: like a shoulder cam on on a cop and that

91
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,840
Speaker 1: was called to this apartment. What should they be looking

92
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 1: for at the crime scene? This body has been found

93
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 1: and still no justice. I'm talking about a ten year

94
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 1: old little girl, Victoria just got. What should they be

95
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,960
Speaker 1: looking at at the scene, Well, they're gonna be looking,

96
00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,280
Speaker 1: uh for things that are that are very very fragile.

97
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,880
Speaker 1: When when I instruct my students in the way I

98
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 1: conducted my practice, I assume that everywhere that I went

99
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 1: and a crime scene was like walking through a minefield,

100
00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,840
Speaker 1: if you will, Nancy, you assume that everything has value,

101
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,440
Speaker 1: that everything is dangerous. So they're gonna be looking even

102
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,760
Speaker 1: for things like uh blood evidence uh uh any kind

103
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,480
Speaker 1: of other body fluids that are there, hair and fiber. Also,

104
00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,440
Speaker 1: we're talking about a case where uh, this child was

105
00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,200
Speaker 1: placed in a bathtub. We're gonna be looking for things

106
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,600
Speaker 1: like accelerants. Uh in here, how did they initiate this fire? Uh?

107
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,880
Speaker 1: Fire has to have uh, it's it's uh, it's a

108
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 1: continuous Uh. It has to have a fuel source, it

109
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: has to have an initiator, all those sorts of things.

110
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,000
Speaker 1: So there's a myriad of evidence that's coming out, not

111
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 1: to mention any kind of trauma that has been inflicted

112
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,520
Speaker 1: on the body. There will be evidence of things like

113
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 1: that like blood spatter, any kind of tools that were

114
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:11,600
Speaker 1: used relative to the body. Um. So there's a myriad

115
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,040
Speaker 1: of things and the police have to be very very

116
00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,280
Speaker 1: careful in this case. I want to hear you analyze

117
00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,280
Speaker 1: what you think they were looking for immediately at the

118
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,800
Speaker 1: crime sat Joe Scott, My thought is that they're going

119
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:29,400
Speaker 1: to be uh under under the idea that that uh,

120
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,680
Speaker 1: there could possibly be DNA evidence present uh in this

121
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,520
Speaker 1: in this particular case. UH. Let's let's keep in mind, Nancy,

122
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 1: that you've got a ten year old girl, UM, that

123
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,800
Speaker 1: someone is attempting to destroy uh, the body of of

124
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,679
Speaker 1: this child. UM, and we have to as investigators think, well,

125
00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,679
Speaker 1: why would you want to do this? Why you know

126
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 1: you've already killed her, Why would you want to destroy

127
00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 1: the body in total? Um. The idea here is that

128
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,200
Speaker 1: there are things on this body that maybe cannot be

129
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,719
Speaker 1: seen with the naked eye, UM, that are going to

130
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,360
Speaker 1: be completely wiped away. We've got three principles that are

131
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,160
Speaker 1: involved in this case. So there's going to be biological

132
00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 1: tie backs to this particular case, generally in the form

133
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,959
Speaker 1: of DNA evidence. So back to you, John Day, new

134
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,800
Speaker 1: Mexico lawyer joining me in addition to Dr. Brian Russell

135
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:32,040
Speaker 1: and Ellen Kilaurin from Crime online dot Com. John Day,

136
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,720
Speaker 1: We've got the shoulder video, UM, the shoulder cam of

137
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: the cops going in. What led them there? Why did

138
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,320
Speaker 1: they decide to go to that apartment? That day? The

139
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,560
Speaker 1: police get a nine one one call of a of

140
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 1: a disturbance like a domestic disturbance from from neighbors at

141
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 1: the apartment, and they show up thinking that they're probably

142
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 1: responding to a run of the mill domestic call, when

143
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,760
Speaker 1: they begin to notice things that for example, there seems

144
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 1: to be some kind of fire taking place inside the apartment,

145
00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,320
Speaker 1: and what the police also learned later is that one

146
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 1: of the three people in the apartment, one of the women,

147
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,480
Speaker 1: has jumped out the back off of back balcony as

148
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,000
Speaker 1: the police are showing up um and injures herself as

149
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,320
Speaker 1: she's doing it. But they don't know. They don't have

150
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,440
Speaker 1: any clue. They don't get a report of a of

151
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,400
Speaker 1: an assault on a child. They don't get any report

152
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 1: other than a neighbor report of some kind of disturbance

153
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,440
Speaker 1: had she been having problems at school. Let me go

154
00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:45,520
Speaker 1: to Ellen Kilauren with crime online dot Com. Ellen, lead

155
00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,320
Speaker 1: me up to the moment where this child's body, a

156
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 1: ten year old little girl is found on fire, dead

157
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 1: and on fire in an apartment bathtub. As we've discussed,

158
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,280
Speaker 1: all science point to an outwardly very sweet, very loving,

159
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:10,720
Speaker 1: very happy, extremely trusting child. In the course of the investigation,

160
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,480
Speaker 1: we've learned that she had actually written a note to

161
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,480
Speaker 1: one of the people who was considered a suspect in

162
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,840
Speaker 1: her murder, saying that she liked having him around, and

163
00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 1: she and he made her laugh, and and she and

164
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 1: she enjoyed as the company. She was just an incredibly trusting, happy, happy,

165
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 1: loving child. Dr Brian Russell joining US lawyer, psychologist, host

166
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,520
Speaker 1: of investigation Discoveries Hit Fatal Vows series. Dr Brian, thank

167
00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,080
Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. I want to

168
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,959
Speaker 1: talk about the mind of a ten year old child.

169
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 1: I mean, when I was ten years old, Um, I

170
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,760
Speaker 1: didn't know where babies came from. Uh, let's see, we

171
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,920
Speaker 1: only got to watch Doris Day, a Doris Day program,

172
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 1: and um what else do I think Hogan's Heroes was on.

173
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,439
Speaker 1: I would have to snake dark shadows, okay, when I

174
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,600
Speaker 1: would get home from school before my parents got there.

175
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,280
Speaker 1: So I was definitely afraid of vampires. Was convinced they existed.

176
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,120
Speaker 1: But other than that, I mean, you know nothing of

177
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,600
Speaker 1: the world, nothing at all. And for a ten year

178
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,640
Speaker 1: old little girl to end up dismembered and on fire

179
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 1: in the bath bathtub of this apartment, I think this

180
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,440
Speaker 1: child had no idea of the world around her. Yeah. Nancy,

181
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,439
Speaker 1: one of the law enforcement officers involved in this case

182
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,840
Speaker 1: commented that it was the most gruesome, active evil he

183
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,439
Speaker 1: had ever seen. And that's really about the only way

184
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 1: you can describe it. And in light of that, it

185
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:46,800
Speaker 1: really is a fascinating, uh and horrific illustration of a

186
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,320
Speaker 1: couple of things. One is the resiliency of children. It's

187
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 1: amazing that immersed as she was in what had to

188
00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:01,920
Speaker 1: have been you know, certainly this event was probably not

189
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:07,559
Speaker 1: the first horrific thing to which this child had been witnessed.

190
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,120
Speaker 1: And yet by all accounts at school, she was a

191
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 1: lovely kid that engaged, active, trying to do well in school,

192
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,440
Speaker 1: trying to be a good student, a good friend. And

193
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:27,040
Speaker 1: and it really shows you how what a an evil,

194
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,280
Speaker 1: horrific betrayal of a child's innocence it is to immerse

195
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 1: her in the kind of world in which this girl

196
00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,960
Speaker 1: was immersed at home, because what you can see here

197
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,719
Speaker 1: is she probably really didn't have any idea of how

198
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,760
Speaker 1: awful her situation was. It's it's like, you know, when

199
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 1: you're immersed in something, uh, you don't know any different,

200
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 1: and and it's just the the innocence lost, uh, you know,

201
00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,600
Speaker 1: and and the it really makes you stop and think

202
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 1: as you have and as I am right now. You

203
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 1: know we had things in our childhood. I'm sure that

204
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,839
Speaker 1: we complained about things we wanted that we didn't get.

205
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 1: We thought our parents were uh, you know, being depriving

206
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 1: us of things at times, but they provided us with

207
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,280
Speaker 1: that security that we didn't even realize we had at

208
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,000
Speaker 1: the time. I want to pause and thank our partner

209
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 1: that makes our program possible today as we investigate the

210
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,280
Speaker 1: horrific death of a ten year old little girl and

211
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,560
Speaker 1: search for answers. It's legal Zoom. What will your story

212
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 1: be in two thousand eighteen? Now the holiday rushes over,

213
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 1: Legal Zoom can help you make this a memorable year

214
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 1: before all the distractions take hold. Make this the year

215
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,080
Speaker 1: you finally get serious about launching and running your business.

216
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,640
Speaker 1: Rest easier knowing your family's future squared away with the

217
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,160
Speaker 1: right estate plan. Legal Zoom has been helping people like

218
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,720
Speaker 1: you take care of their dreams and responsibilities over sixteen years.

219
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,800
Speaker 1: They're not a law firm. They have all the resources

220
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,200
Speaker 1: to keep you on the right path, including advice from

221
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,600
Speaker 1: their network of independent lawyers all of your fingertips. Take

222
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,280
Speaker 1: a little pressure off yourself. Go to legal zoom dot

223
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,000
Speaker 1: com Now whether you want to take your business to

224
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,000
Speaker 1: the next level or take control of your family's future

225
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,640
Speaker 1: with an estate plan, legal Zoom plugs right into your

226
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,640
Speaker 1: life so you can take care of things that matter most.

227
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,320
Speaker 1: Get off to a strong start in two thousand and

228
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,840
Speaker 1: eighteen at legal zoom dot com Today special savings when

229
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 1: you enter Nancy in a n C Y in the

230
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 1: promo code at checkout legal zoom. Where life meets legal.

231
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 1: The death of a ten year old little girls shot

232
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,960
Speaker 1: the community and then the world. Joseph Scott Morgan with me,

233
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 1: death investigator and forensics and forensics expert at Jacksonville State University.

234
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,320
Speaker 1: Joe Scott again, thank you for being with us. I

235
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 1: want to talk about the actual findings, the findings as

236
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,120
Speaker 1: to cause of death. That's where you start. You start

237
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 1: with what the body reveals, and that's why it's so

238
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 1: important critical that the medical examiner take their time and

239
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 1: find every clue possible left on the body. What did

240
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,200
Speaker 1: we learn just from this child's body burning in the bathtub,

241
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,320
Speaker 1: just from the child's body having been burned. Nancy and

242
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: I was actually impressed that they were able to to

243
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 1: come up with with this much information, and uh there's

244
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 1: myriad of it. Uh. She was apparently uh strangled, um

245
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,800
Speaker 1: and beaten. And in addition to that, the medical examiner

246
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,480
Speaker 1: determined that she was and this is very key, she

247
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 1: was in fact sexually assaulted. And we get an indication

248
00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,720
Speaker 1: of that that this is not just something that he

249
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,880
Speaker 1: owned as a result of of um some type of

250
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,879
Speaker 1: chemical test or DNA test or something like that, that

251
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 1: there's actual, uh physical evidence of this. And with a

252
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,280
Speaker 1: ten year old girl, you one might expect to see

253
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 1: that as well. So it really paints a rather horrific

254
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,919
Speaker 1: final moments in this, uh, this girl's life. Tell me

255
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 1: what you know, John Day on New Mexico Lawyer joining

256
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,879
Speaker 1: us with the story of Victoria Martin about this apartment

257
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 1: complex where she was found, Can you describe it for me?

258
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 1: It's um, it's pretty nondescript, it's pretty running the mill

259
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,359
Speaker 1: for for Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's um. It's you know,

260
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,960
Speaker 1: it's a working class um. The crime rate there is

261
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,720
Speaker 1: is relatively high. I mean, you know, there's a reason

262
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,879
Speaker 1: that Breaking Bad was set in Albuquerque, unfortunately, a TV

263
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,359
Speaker 1: series about the the mess dealers, and that's that's certainly

264
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 1: the factor you know, John, every metropolis, every big city

265
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,159
Speaker 1: has crime, bad crime areas. You know, from well, d

266
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 1: C is horrible, but from Atlanta to New York where

267
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,560
Speaker 1: they claimed the crime is down to San Francisco. Every

268
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 1: l A, of course has a crime high crime area.

269
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,880
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to get my mind around. You said

270
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,399
Speaker 1: it was a working class apartment complex. What more can

271
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 1: you tell me? It's it's just, you know, it's the

272
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:38,240
Speaker 1: typical New Mexico stucco buildings with metal railings, and um,

273
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 1: you know, it's a it's full of the neighborhood's full

274
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,080
Speaker 1: of plenty of good people, obviously, because these are neighbors

275
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,880
Speaker 1: who we're able to call one when there was something happening.

276
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,720
Speaker 1: But it's you know, it's families trying to raise kids

277
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 1: and send their kids to school. Um, it's it's just

278
00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:00,400
Speaker 1: your your basic solid Southwest sun belt. Uh. A little

279
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: greedy around the edges, but um, but not. But it's not.

280
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: It's not sort of the scruffiest part of town either.

281
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 1: I mean, as I said, there are plenty of if

282
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,159
Speaker 1: you go over there and you look around, there are

283
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 1: plenty of toys and the and the and the in

284
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,680
Speaker 1: the hallways, and you know, big, big wheels and things

285
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 1: that indicate the kids lived there and the families lived.

286
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 1: I also know that Victoria had a little brother. What

287
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,000
Speaker 1: do we know about him? John Day, the brother was

288
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 1: would go back and forth with Victoria, but mainly to

289
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,359
Speaker 1: his father, and who is not connected. The police are

290
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 1: saying he's not part of this. He apparently was horrified

291
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,159
Speaker 1: and had no clue and nothing I've heard indicates that

292
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 1: anyone thinks he had any knowledge ahead of this or

293
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,399
Speaker 1: any involvement. But the brother was apparently just as sweet,

294
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 1: just as just as kind. I mean, people describe him

295
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,159
Speaker 1: as being just as as lovely a kid as his

296
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 1: sister was. Is it true, to Ellen killorin with Crime

297
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,120
Speaker 1: online dot Com? Is it true that child protective services

298
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:12,199
Speaker 1: have been called not once twice, three times, four times,

299
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 1: but five times that I know of regarding Victoria? Is

300
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,160
Speaker 1: that true? Ellen? It's true that there were multiple calls

301
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:29,840
Speaker 1: made to child protective services. Um One the most significant

302
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 1: one is a report that was made that one of

303
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 1: Victoria's mother's boyfriends had tried to kiss um little pener

304
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 1: old Victoria. Yes, okay, wait, wait, wait right there. Dr

305
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 1: Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host of investigation, discoveries, fatal vows.

306
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 1: Try to kiss a ten year old girl, he would

307
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 1: have been out the door with my shoe up. Is

308
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 1: rear end. I don't get it. A grown man you

309
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: keep quote dating a guy that tried to kiss your

310
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: daughter who had to be nine at the oldest when

311
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: it happened. Well, what's that thinking a mommy's part, Well,

312
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 1: it's absolutely disgusting, le narcissistic for any parent to be

313
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 1: willing to allow something like that, even something like that,

314
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 1: which which is on the low end of the horrific

315
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,199
Speaker 1: spectrum relative to everything else we know that happened to

316
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: this little girl, To allow that to happen, because you're

317
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 1: getting something as the parent out of the relationship that

318
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: you're having with the perpetrator is just the It's the

319
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 1: antithesis of mother of father of parent. And it really

320
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: speaks to what you were saying and what I was

321
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 1: saying a few minutes ago about how you know, if

322
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,360
Speaker 1: you grew up the way that you and I did,

323
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: where you never had to worry that somebody was going

324
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: to touch you inappropriately, or somebody was going to beat

325
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: you or uh, you know, try to give you drugs

326
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 1: or or something you always knew that you were safe

327
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 1: and secure if you whether you were perfectly happy with

328
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 1: everything you had all the time, you always knew you

329
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: had basic safety and security. Uh, you know you had everything.

330
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:29,400
Speaker 1: You had so much, and and and to be thankful

331
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 1: for that looking back, and and and the cognizant of

332
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 1: the fact that there are kids out there wherever you

333
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: are today, there are kids out there, probably not very

334
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: far from you, who don't have that right now, an

335
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: effort ongoing by police to obtain phone and social media

336
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 1: records that they believe could shed light on the night

337
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,719
Speaker 1: this little girl was murdered, was found partially dismembered and

338
00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 1: on fire in an apartment complex apartment bathroom bathtub. What

339
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 1: do sell phone records and social media records have to

340
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: do with a child dismembered? A little girl dismembered, according

341
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan having been sexually assaulted as well.

342
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 1: The phone records are those of Victoria's own mother, Michelle Martin's,

343
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: and her boyfriend at the time, Fabian, and his cousin

344
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 1: Jessica Kelly. Why would they want phone records of mommy,

345
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and his female cousin for the night her

346
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: child is assaulted and murder Joe Scott Morgan. How do

347
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: we know a ten year old ten years old one day?

348
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 1: How do we know she was us? Did well? Uh? Nancy,

349
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: we know that she's assaulted by the physical findings. Uh

350
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: that that uh that the uh m E found and

351
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: that's that's the stuff that can be seen with the

352
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 1: unaided I if you will, uh, any kind of marks

353
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: on the body, the trauma that was inflicted on her. Uh.

354
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 1: They had said that she was in fact strangled to death,

355
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: which means that she would have had hemorrhage uh in

356
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: the soft tissues of her neck. But then we have

357
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: to expand out, um. Two things that can't be seen

358
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: with the inn aided I, like DNA, and there are,

359
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: according to reports, there are multiple DNA found on this

360
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: child's person. And we're not talking about things that you know,

361
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: in a modern vernacular that we use now, like touch DNA,

362
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: which is only kind of a a partial we think

363
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: about touch DNA is kind of the sloughing of skin

364
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: and that falls away, that dies, and that sort of thing.

365
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: We're talking about solid DNA here, uh that is generated

366
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: as a result of things like body fluids. Uh. Semen saliva, blood,

367
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: that sort of thing that lends itself to connectivity, and

368
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: that's what forensics does. And this is ah this paints

369
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: a picture of what we do at the field and

370
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: in the lab, is trying to connect people to a

371
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: particular crime visa v. What they leave behind in the

372
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: physical sense. To John Day, renowned in Mexico lawyer, joining us,

373
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: who is on the k who has been pulled into

374
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: the case? John Day, why do we believe the mother,

375
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and a female cousin are are having their

376
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: phone records examined? Nancy, We don't know exactly right now,

377
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: but I can make an educated guess as we know

378
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: from uh warrants that were shoot in this case and

379
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: affidavits and other things that have been filed in court.

380
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 1: Michelle Martin's Victoria's mother told investigators that she would go

381
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: and get onto her computer and go online and seek

382
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: men to engage in sex acts with her children. That's

383
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: what she was saying. What she would watch for her

384
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: WHA what can you back it up and repeat? What

385
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: we also know from pleadings in this case, affidavits, things

386
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: that were filed by investigators that there were statements by

387
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: Michelle Martin's the mother that she would go on to

388
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: her computer and look for men. This is what she

389
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: told investigators. She would find men online to engage in sex,

390
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 1: sex acts with Victoria. And so obviously, if you're an investigator,

391
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: and if you're the defense, you want to know exactly

392
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: what she's talking about. And could this be part of

393
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: what they're looking for the and the warrants for the

394
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: cell phones and the text and so on. I think

395
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: it probably is. John was the mother allegedly pimping out

396
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: her daughter for money. It's not for money. That's not

397
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: what she apparently told investigators. It was a statement to

398
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: the effect of all I would do this, and I'd

399
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: watched them engage in sex, and it was for my

400
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: own pleasure. Now you can take that for what it's worth.

401
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: You look at the circumstances of when she makes the statement.

402
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: Is there physical evidence that the investigators have found or

403
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: they're looking for that validates that, that backs that up.

404
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: We don't know yet, but that's obviously someplace they have

405
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: to go. Dr Russell, you're the psychologist. I've got to

406
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: go to you on this. I mean, how did this

407
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 1: child if she's endearing all this at the hands of

408
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: her own mother. How did she keep up in school?

409
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: I mean every photo I've looked at, she's got this

410
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: beautiful mop of light brown hair, this big, huge smile

411
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: on her face. To me, she looks like a very,

412
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: very young Valerie Burton Alley. She's just just gorgeous with

413
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: always a big smile. Dr Briant. That speaks to the

414
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: resilience that we were talking about, Nancy, of kids. It's

415
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: it's amazing what a kid can go through and still

416
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: put on a smile. And you see it. You know,

417
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: when you travel around the world to places where kids

418
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: are living in horrific conditions and they don't know. It's

419
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: like if you have a fish in you know, really

420
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: yucky dirty water that the fish doesn't know that you

421
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 1: know there are other fish in in clean water, and

422
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: and it's sort of like that with kids in it.

423
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: And it's just so heartbreaking to see a kid living

424
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: in conditions like the ones in which this girl apparently

425
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 1: was living, and and to and to still be happy. Nancy,

426
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: I'll bet you this little girl loved that mother. As

427
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: as awful as it sounds to even say that, I

428
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: want to go to Ellen Kilaurain Investigative reporter on crime

429
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: online dot com. But first let me thank our partner

430
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: who is making our investigation into the death of Victorian

431
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: Martin's possible today and it is super Beats. You know,

432
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if you spend a lot of time

433
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: mulling your circulation or why you feel fatigued sometimes. But circulation,

434
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: as we all know, is crucial to your energy and stamina,

435
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: pumping oxygen and nutrients throughout your body so you can

436
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: exercise longer, or simply do everyday activities, take care of

437
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: your children, get to work, recover from injuries more easily.

438
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: But what can you do to promote healthy circulation? Well,

439
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: here's an answer, super beats. It's super Beats B E

440
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: e t s promoting your body's own natural ability to

441
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: produce healthy circulation for increased energy stamina only. Super Beats

442
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: is made from beats grown to very exacting standards, then

443
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: they are concentrated down into super food crystals. If you

444
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: want to improve your circulation, call eight hundred five one

445
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: six oh six eight three or go to Nancy's Beats

446
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: dot com in a n C Y S B E

447
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: E T S dot com. Now listen to this with

448
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: your first order, you get another free thirty days supply

449
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: of super Beats, free plus indicators, trips to show how

450
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: super Beats works for you, plus free shipping. You're not

451
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: going to get that at the vitamin store. Call eight

452
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: hundred five one six oh six eight three or go

453
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: to Nancy's beats dot com today, Ellen colaurin Crime Online

454
00:30:54,000 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: investigative reporter, you have exhaustively reviewed search warrants, I investigate reports.

455
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: What have we learned? What have you been able to

456
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: piece together as to what happened just pre sitting the

457
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: death of this ten year old little girl. Well, one

458
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: of the things that we know for absolute sures that

459
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: these three adults were in the home with the girl

460
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: the night that she was that she was horrified, finally killed.

461
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: There is a possibility, based on what we know the

462
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: police are looking at, that there may have actually been

463
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: another witnessed or possibly even another person in the apartment

464
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: that night. The police have obviously this is a very

465
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: very active investigation, and the police are are are not

466
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: revealing a lot um. They're not getting press conferences or

467
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: anything at this point, but what they are doing is

468
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: is clearly looking for the possibility that other people knew things.

469
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: I think that speaks to your question about the phone

470
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: records and the social media records. I think that that

471
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: investigators believe that that the the adults and the apartment

472
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: during the time of this this horrifying assault and murder

473
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: may have been in contact with other people, and in fact,

474
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: one of them did tell police as she was apprehended

475
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: that there were more people in the apartment. On top

476
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: of that, police have have obtained I think something like

477
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: two hundred pieces of DNA evidence that they're combing through

478
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: right now, and I imagine that that's all all leading

479
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: to finding out exactly who was there and when. But

480
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: as far as understanding why on earth anyone would would

481
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 1: do this thing to a child on on her tenth birthday,

482
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: when she was planning on having a birthday party just

483
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: hours after she was found, is incomprehensible and we don't

484
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: we don't know any any We don't have any idea

485
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: what the motive could be yet that night, the night

486
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: before the night that she was killed to John Day,

487
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: new Mexico lawyer who is working who has been pulled

488
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: into this case, John Day, what are the allegations against

489
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: mom of that night that lead up to Victoria's brutal murder.

490
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: The allegations are that this mom had had met online

491
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: this guy, Fabian Gonzalez, and Fabian had a cousin named

492
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: Jessica Kelly, who had been in and out of trouble

493
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: with the law, had been had been locked up, she

494
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: had a number of different convictions for different things. And

495
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: what we know at this point, according to the allegations

496
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: and what the investigators have found, is that the three

497
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: of these these three adults were at the apartment and

498
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: they were um, they had meth, and they were doing meth.

499
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: And according to warrants that were filed, at one point,

500
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: the three of them or some combination held Victoria down

501
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: to give her meth, according to warrants, to make her relax.

502
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: And the allegation is is that they did that so

503
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: that the adults could rape her, rape the sweet little

504
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: girl while the mother watched. And that's consistent with the

505
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: things that the mother had said to the police after

506
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: she was arrested, that she would go online and find

507
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: people to have sex with Victoria while she watched. So

508
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: what she was saying is consistent. It's it's hard to

509
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: even speak those words. And you know, I've done this

510
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: for twenty seven years and just reading over the warrants

511
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: and speaking the words that are written down there are

512
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: um emotionally difficult to Joe Scott, Morgan, death Investigator, Professor

513
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, what would meth?

514
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: How would that affect? Uh this child's perception of what

515
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 1: was happening to her? Yeah, you know, Nancy, When when

516
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: I read this, I had to do a double take.

517
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: Uh as uh as the counselor stated, just a moment ago, Uh,

518
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: they wanted to apply meth in order to relax her. Uh.

519
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: Meth is not something you would apply to someone in

520
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: order to relax. And meth is not just a stimulant.

521
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: It's a hyper stimulant UM and as a matter of fact,

522
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: it's used to knock down or it could be used

523
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: much like cocaine to knock down inhibitions UM. And so

524
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: that paints a completely different story here. If you're trying

525
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: to get a ten year old to be uninhibited, to

526
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: not care what's going on with her, that sort of

527
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: thing where they're in an elevated state, that's that's what

528
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: you would be trying to achieve with meth. So I

529
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: don't know where this is coming from, where they came

530
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: to this conclusion, but they are way off base with this.

531
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 1: I want to talk about recordings, secretly taped recordings, Ellen

532
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: Coilaura and crime online dot Com. What can you tell me?

533
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: There have been reports that indicate possibly that there was

534
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: there were photos and possibly videos taken that night of

535
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 1: what those people were doing to Victoria. We do know

536
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: that her mother had in the past met men online

537
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: and invited them to have interactions with her children like that,

538
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: and we think, based on based on what we know

539
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: about the investigation, that this is something that that part

540
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: of what the mother was doing was getting off on,

541
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: was actually taking photographs and possibly video of what happened.

542
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: So it is possible that the horrifying things that were

543
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: being done to Victoria were recorded on phone and video

544
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: and possibly sent to other people. Joining me from l

545
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: he was also investigating the case. Is Alan do Alan?

546
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about recordings that we have

547
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: obtained in this case? Well, you see, if you're in

548
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: jail and you make a phone call, somebody's listening in

549
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: or at least recording it, and they can listen in.

550
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: And that's what's been happening in this case, and there's

551
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: we do have something. We can play them right now.

552
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: Some of the phone recordings where the defendant is talking

553
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: to her mom Ellen. The tapes we are about to

554
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: play that we're secretly corded behind bars. Who to whom

555
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: are we listening? We're listening to Michelle Martin's the mother

556
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: of Victoria. Victoria's speaking to her own mother, Um, and

557
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: she's and she's talking about, while not admitting any any

558
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: guilt in the in the in the actual violence, she's

559
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: talking about feeling as though she failed her daughter. And

560
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: she's and she's feeling and she's feeling very sorry for herself.

561
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: In other parts of the conversation, we don't know what

562
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: they're talking about because they know that these these conversations

563
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: are being recorded, and they're speaking in code at certain

564
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: parts of it, so that the people listening and don't

565
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: know what they're saying. Feeling like she failed her daughter,

566
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: John Day, I mean, my head is spinning around failed

567
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: her daughter. She she had a hand in her murder

568
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: and her horrific, horrific sex attack. John. It's difficult to

569
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: reconcile that. But you know the problem with jail house recordings,

570
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: and I on the one hand, at my old prosecutor

571
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: putting my old prosecutor hat on. I think a canny

572
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: defense lawyer would be talking to a client in jail saying,

573
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: remember everything that you say except to your lawyer, is

574
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: being recorded, either by audio or video. So remember that

575
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: when you're talking to people. That cuts both ways. Someone

576
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: wants to get something out, that's a great way to

577
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: do it, because in a high profile case, you know

578
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: that every media outlet than a hundred miles is going

579
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 1: to be trying to get those recordings. On the other hand,

580
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: my defense layer hat now, I think that there are

581
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: plenty of times when people forget that and they're having

582
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 1: heartfelt conversations with someone, forgetting completely that it's being recorded.

583
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: Best example, Casey Anthony a couple of years ago, those

584
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: videos and audio recordings of her conversations with her family

585
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: that were so damaging and so revealing. You know what,

586
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: You're so right when she would scream at her mom

587
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: and dad who were there every time they tried to

588
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: talk to her about what happened the night Kelly went missing.

589
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, you and I have seen more child

590
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: abuse in child order cases, and I even want to remember,

591
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: in fact, I try actively not to remember them. The

592
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: thought of this mother behind bars after she is solicited

593
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: for her own enjoyment, not for money, as if that

594
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: would make it any better to bring in guys to

595
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: the home to molest her daughter while she sat there

596
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: and watch now the daughter is dead. I mean, it's

597
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: almost more than I can take in. Joe Scott. Yeah,

598
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: when you when you think that you've you've reached the basement,

599
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: when you've gone down as far as you possibly can,

600
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: there's always another layer in there, Nancy, And uh, the

601
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: depths of depravity here, uh there there, you can't plumb

602
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: the depths of it. Um. And I'm amazed at uh.

603
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: And I don't want to get off into the docks

604
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: area here, but uh, you know the narcissism that's involved

605
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: in this, uh kind of the the self involvement, and

606
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: that you would even though it wasn't done for money, allegedly,

607
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 1: the pimping out of this precious little child for your

608
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: own personal gratification. Um, it's just absolutely sickening, just down

609
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: to its core. As we wait for the system to

610
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: move on this, as we wait for justice for ten

611
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: year old Victoria Martin, right now, an argument. A legal

612
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: battle ongoing about DNA, d ox uribe nucleic acid, and

613
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: a technique that may be used in trial. John Day,

614
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,959
Speaker 1: veteran New Mexico lawyer, What is happening regarding the DNA. Well,

615
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 1: they've got trial dates set. Each one's been each defendant's

616
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: been trialed separately. They're still waiting on some DNA results.

617
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: Tons of DNA samples are collected by the investigators and

618
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: they need to get it analyzed. The problem is in

619
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: New Mexico, the state crime lab is backed up, it's

620
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: it's having issues, that's having problems, and so the Albuquerque

621
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: Police Department, the District Attorney's office, has gotten permission from

622
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: the court to send off to Florida for DNA analysis

623
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: all a lot of these DNA samples. And they're in

624
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 1: fact going to try to use a relatively new process

625
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: that the investigators hope can elicit a lot more information

626
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: in this case than previously could have been could have

627
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: been gotten. Joe's got Morgan, what's the process. The process

628
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: that they're talking about is called star mix Nancy, and

629
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 1: it's a relatively new technology that was developed out of

630
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: New Zealand and look DNA even for scientists many times,

631
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: it's very complicated. I'm gonna try to break this down

632
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: so that our listeners can understand it. Um. If you're

633
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: looking for one person, that's one thing. But in this

634
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: particular case where this little girl has been just brutally murdered,

635
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,919
Speaker 1: we've got at least three principles involved in this thing.

636
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: And let's keep in mind that we've got, uh, the

637
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: females who are also involved. So it's not like we're

638
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: just strictly looking for for male DNA and this DNA

639
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: is overlapping, all right. Uh. This new technology uses a

640
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: computer program that not only looks at the biology, but

641
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: it breaks it down with a mathematical model where these

642
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: computations that this thing is doing are going into the quadrillions,

643
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: if you will. And it's it's highly layered, highly complicated.

644
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: And here's the big problem, Nancy, this thing has not

645
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: met scientific rigor. It's been rejected and a lot of

646
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: other courts. UM. And so I think my thought at

647
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: least is is that when this comes to trial, UM,

648
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: I think that this is something that the defense attorneys

649
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: are going to look at really hard because in any

650
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: kind scientific testing, we learned this even when We're in

651
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: the eighth grade and we're basically learning how science works.

652
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: We know that you have to test something and repeat

653
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: that test before the science is valid. The problem with

654
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 1: star Mix is that because it uses a computer program,

655
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: it has what's referred to as a source code. That

656
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: means the basic algorithm of this thing is plugged in,

657
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: and it's not. It has not met scientific testing. What

658
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: they're saying is blindly accept what this computer program is

659
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: going to put out. We're not going to give you

660
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: access to the source code, so they can't test it,

661
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: and the defense is going to have a real field

662
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: day with this. I think when it makes it into court,

663
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: I'm just worried about that. I would not jeopardize this

664
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: case um with a new technique until it has accepted

665
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: universally across the US. And it may be all well

666
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: and good, because John Day, you're a veteran trial lawyer.

667
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: The first time I ever tried a case with DNA,

668
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: they crime lay people said, well, do you want me

669
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: to bring in the labs in other words, the pictures

670
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: that they took under the microscope. I'm like, yes, bring everything. Okay, Well,

671
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: they started putting an up in court. It looked like

672
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: undeveloped film, big law, on to one after the next

673
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: undeveloped film, like Oh, dear Lord in Heaven, what have

674
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: I done? Well? I never did that again, So be

675
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: careful what you ask for. You may surely get it.

676
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: You know you ask for all that data, Fine, have

677
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 1: at it, because once I saw that, I never, once again,

678
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: for the remainder of my ten years prosecuting felonies every

679
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: other week in front of juries, ever brought on the

680
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: supporting DNA evidence because it doesn't make it. Can't look

681
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: at it as a civilian, a non scientific person and

682
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: understand it. From then on, I would have them explain

683
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: and easy to understand words, if there are any how

684
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: DNA works, and I would stay on them before trial,

685
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: not when they're up on the witness stand, to explain

686
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 1: it so I could understand it. I'm not a scientist,

687
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: I'm a trial lawyer, and if I could understand what

688
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: they were saying that, I knew the jury would understand

689
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: it too. So you don't want to come in with

690
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: a brand new technique nobody else is using, get a

691
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: conviction and then have the thing reversed. Uh, John Day,

692
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: what about the death penalty? Don't have it in New Mexico,

693
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: haven't had it since two de Lord in Heaven. So

694
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: you can basically murder as that many people as you

695
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: want to in New Mexico and you're still gonna get

696
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: You're still going to get three hots and a cop

697
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, right yeah, I mean

698
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: you're not going to the DP. New Mexico has. What

699
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: replaced the death County was life without the possibility of

700
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell. You've seen it all as host of

701
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: investigation Discoveries fatal Vows. What do you make of it?

702
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: One of the things that we notice a lot on

703
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: Fatal Vows is that the extreme narcissism that leads somebody

704
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: to do something so evil is what we've seen in

705
00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: this case, fortunately for the rest of us, often also

706
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: leads those people to make mistakes, to think they're getting

707
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: rid of evidence they're not really getting rid of, to

708
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 1: leave DNA around that ultimately ties them to the crime.

709
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: And and it's because they overestimate their own ability to

710
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: get out of trouble. And so hopefully in this case,

711
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: these perpetrators have done that and will ultimately see justice.

712
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: Although you know, as it's always the case on fatal

713
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 1: vas It's never going to bring back this beautiful, lovely

714
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 1: little girl. We are waiting to see justice unfold. Nancy

715
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend,