1
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk.

2
00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 2: Hi. Everyone, welcome The Mother Knows Death.

3
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,599
Speaker 3: In addition to the news stories we will be discussing

4
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 3: on today's episode, we also want to welcome back our

5
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,960
Speaker 3: friend and host of Body Bags podcast, Joseph Scott Morgan.

6
00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,440
Speaker 3: You may know Joseph from his frequent appearances on Crime

7
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 3: Stories with Nancy Grace, Court TV and other major news outlets,

8
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 3: or as the author of Blood Beneath My Feet, The

9
00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,960
Speaker 3: Journey of a Southern Death Investigator. Joseph holds the Masters

10
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 3: of Forensics degree from National University and is a Board

11
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:57,840
Speaker 3: Certified Fellow of the American Board of Medical Legal Death Investigators. Currently,

12
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,280
Speaker 3: he is an Associate Professor of Applied Forensics at Jacksonville

13
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,800
Speaker 3: State University in Alabama. Joseph started working in forensics in

14
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 3: the eighties, and throughout his career he has been involved

15
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:15,399
Speaker 3: in thousands of medical legal death investigations and autopsies. Hi, Joseph,

16
00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:16,400
Speaker 3: Welcome to the show.

17
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,520
Speaker 1: Hey y'all, how are you doing. Thanks for having me back.

18
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 1: I've been hoping I could get back with you guys,

19
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:24,400
Speaker 1: and here I am.

20
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 3: Thanks for being here. We love having you on and

21
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,039
Speaker 3: so do our listeners. They're always just like.

22
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 2: You know that guy.

23
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:34,280
Speaker 1: I speak.

24
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,600
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm like, yeah, he was on TMZ this week,

25
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,320
Speaker 3: and you know he was on there for good reasons.

26
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,120
Speaker 3: Usually people are on there for scandalous reasons, and you

27
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,240
Speaker 3: just your face was all over the internet.

28
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, this one. You know, I don't I don't really

29
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,720
Speaker 1: do TikTok that. I can't figure it out. My daughter,

30
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 1: my daughter, My daughter reached out to me though, and

31
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,200
Speaker 1: she was like, she calls me Jofas. She was like, Joevish,

32
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 1: you're everywhere. I was like, well, yeah, I am, thanks

33
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 1: to Harvey and so yeah, yeah, I was. I was.

34
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,640
Speaker 1: I was floating about and before that, I think it

35
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:12,520
Speaker 1: was Pierce Morgan.

36
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,040
Speaker 2: Uh oh, yeah, that was cool too.

37
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. I did the thing regarding Charlie Kirk's homicide, so yeah,

38
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,360
Speaker 1: and caught a lot of flak over that. So because

39
00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,440
Speaker 1: I you know, I don't like to use the assassination word.

40
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 1: It's one of the one of the problems we got

41
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,760
Speaker 1: into with Kennedy. Uh. If they just straight up worked

42
00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:39,239
Speaker 1: it as a homicide, Uh, it lends itself, that lends

43
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:44,760
Speaker 1: itself clinically to you clarity, right, when you stick with

44
00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,079
Speaker 1: the science, and unfortunately you get off on all these

45
00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,160
Speaker 1: rabbit trails and a lot of stuff that they were

46
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 1: saying early on turns out to not be true now,

47
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,160
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, surprise, surprise. So people have a lot

48
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,520
Speaker 1: of spare time on their hands. But yeah, you got

49
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,040
Speaker 1: to look at it, let them work the case.

50
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that case is really interesting to me.

51
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,480
Speaker 3: Of course, it's always compared to the Kennedy assassination, but

52
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 3: it's just so much different because there's so many different

53
00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,560
Speaker 3: angles of film and witnesses and higher death. It's just

54
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 3: not the zap Ruder film that you're going by frame

55
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,880
Speaker 3: by frame, and and you have social media, and don't

56
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,120
Speaker 3: you wonder how different it would be if this Kennedy

57
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 3: back then.

58
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I keep hoping, you know, someday I did a

59
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,080
Speaker 1: big piece on while I've done several particularly on the

60
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,840
Speaker 1: anniversary of the assassination sixty year back in twenty three,

61
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: and talked about it extensively on a couple of podcasts,

62
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 1: even Take Something with Fox and wound up getting shelved.

63
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:55,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, and you know, so many things went wrong

64
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 1: with Kennedy and I don't want to necessarily again get

65
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 1: off on a go down a rabbit trail with you guys.

66
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,840
Speaker 1: But just from a pathology standpoint, people don't really realize

67
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:17,839
Speaker 1: with Kennedy, the first true medical examiner that Dallas ever had,

68
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,919
Speaker 1: had just been hired and he was literally standing in

69
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 1: the hallway at Parkland protesting that the body should not

70
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,320
Speaker 1: be removed. Doctor Earl Rose, if you get a chance,

71
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 1: check him out. Pretty amazing guy, originally from Iowa and

72
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,480
Speaker 1: for his day and time, and he was actually one

73
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 1: of the first people, kind of in that early generation,

74
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,560
Speaker 1: the first people that actually were boarded in forensic pathology.

75
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,720
Speaker 1: And instead of him doing an examination who had extensive

76
00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 1: experience with ballistics, they take the President's body and take

77
00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 1: it away and arguably put it into the hands of

78
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,200
Speaker 1: two of the most inept pathologists you could ever find

79
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,040
Speaker 1: that had never done a forensic autopsy at all. And

80
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,800
Speaker 1: so here we are today, all these years later, and

81
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:17,200
Speaker 1: you know, reflecting on Charlie Kirk from that perspective, for me,

82
00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,720
Speaker 1: is very important to remember that Charlie went to one

83
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 1: of the best state medical examiner offices in the nation

84
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,120
Speaker 1: in Utah, and you had a lot of eyes on

85
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,680
Speaker 1: his case at that particular time, highly qualified people my stock,

86
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 1: their stock went up with me. And you guys might

87
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 1: find this interesting with the Tammy Dabll case because when

88
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,360
Speaker 1: Tammy was buried, she was buried in Utah that had

89
00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 1: again an order of exhamation, and they really took their

90
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,520
Speaker 1: time with her case because there was you know, a

91
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,680
Speaker 1: lot to go over that were missing a lot of things,

92
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,799
Speaker 1: and luckily it did stay in Idaho. Her case didn't.

93
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,200
Speaker 1: She was buried in Utah and that office you know,

94
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,560
Speaker 1: went forward with the exhamation and did a bang a

95
00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,760
Speaker 1: job relative to her examination. I think the same is

96
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 1: going to apply with Charlie. This is an act of

97
00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,240
Speaker 1: an active homicide investigation. So for people that are sitting

98
00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,640
Speaker 1: around hoping that they're going to be getting a lot

99
00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,320
Speaker 1: of information and not this guy that's accused, you know,

100
00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 1: they're going to try to strap him to a chair

101
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,360
Speaker 1: and shooting capital punishment. The prosecutor's already said that. So

102
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, people can stir the mud all they want to,

103
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,479
Speaker 1: you know, muck up the waters if they want to,

104
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 1: but the truth will eventually come out.

105
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,839
Speaker 3: This is a good point that you're bringing up, kind

106
00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,520
Speaker 3: of and we could go back to the TMZ article

107
00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,919
Speaker 3: and why you went viral this week in regards to

108
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,479
Speaker 3: Ellen Greenberg, we could just talk about that a little

109
00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,159
Speaker 3: bit before we start the new stories of this week.

110
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:05,600
Speaker 3: But I do I personally know the medical examiner some

111
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,159
Speaker 3: of them involved with this case, because obviously I did

112
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,760
Speaker 3: my rotations through the Philly mme's office, and I do,

113
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,000
Speaker 3: to a certain extent, feel bad that they have to

114
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,160
Speaker 3: conduct investigations in this kind of a world now where

115
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,760
Speaker 3: everyone's an investigator on social media and just ripping through

116
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,480
Speaker 3: the case and maybe not either knowing all the details

117
00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 3: or just not even have really examined the body to say,

118
00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 3: you know, exactly what happens. So this case, however, is outrageous.

119
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 3: So Ray, why don't you just briefly talk about her

120
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 3: case for a second, just for those who are unfamiliar.

121
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 2: For Ellen Greenberg.

122
00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, so she was a teacher that this is back

123
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,840
Speaker 3: in Philadelphia in two thousand and eleven.

124
00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,640
Speaker 4: It was twenty eleven. We talked about this last week

125
00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 4: with Jackline too, you know, just going over the basics

126
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 4: of the case, where it was a snow day sent

127
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,440
Speaker 4: home from school. She was there with her fiance. He

128
00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 4: claims he went to the gym, came back and found

129
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 4: her stabbed to death, and it's just such an unusual

130
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,480
Speaker 4: story because it had been determined it as a homicide

131
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,440
Speaker 4: and then switched to suicide. Now they've confirmed it to suicide,

132
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 4: and there's just a lot of outrage about that report

133
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,320
Speaker 4: that just came out last week.

134
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:27,680
Speaker 2: So, Joseph your thoughts.

135
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,120
Speaker 1: Well, from an administrative standpoint, it's a total train wreck.

136
00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 1: This is not the way a medical examiner's office should

137
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:42,280
Speaker 1: be managed, because you know, even in the world priort.

138
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:48,200
Speaker 1: You know, when when Ellen's death ocurred, we were not

139
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,960
Speaker 1: as married to social media as we are now. And

140
00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,199
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it was done in a total vacuum. However,

141
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,120
Speaker 1: we have to since that period of time, things have

142
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,559
Speaker 1: changed considerably. And then when people take a look at

143
00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,559
Speaker 1: Allen's case and begin to kind of pick it apart

144
00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,360
Speaker 1: and see administratively, how many changes took place. I don't

145
00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: know if Joe talked about this, By the way, one

146
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:21,240
Speaker 1: of my favorite people, Joe, He's a fantastic guy. One

147
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 1: of the things that really struck me was the fact

148
00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,800
Speaker 1: that they had initially come out with suicide, I mean,

149
00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 1: with homicide ruling, and then following this meeting that Osborne

150
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,840
Speaker 1: was brought into with the prosecutor and the police. Suddenly

151
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,280
Speaker 1: he has a change of heart, changes the manner of

152
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,720
Speaker 1: debt the suicide. I've worked a lot of cases over

153
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,560
Speaker 1: the course of my career where I had cases that

154
00:09:53,760 --> 00:10:00,640
Speaker 1: were initially suicide and then changed the homicide. I don't

155
00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,840
Speaker 1: remember any case that I had that was initially ruled

156
00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,840
Speaker 1: a homicide and then went to suicide. And we have

157
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:10,240
Speaker 1: to also remember that for a while they teased out

158
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 1: the idea that they were going to make this an

159
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,240
Speaker 1: undetermined They played around with that too. So, guys, we've

160
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 1: only got five minutes of death to choose from, and

161
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,000
Speaker 1: you've gone through three of them. This is this is

162
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,440
Speaker 1: not an organization I'd have a lot of confidence in

163
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:32,160
Speaker 1: I think, you know, thinking about that, you know, administratively,

164
00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,040
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about from a practitioner standpoint. I'm talking

165
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,080
Speaker 1: about just administratively. You know, how do you leap frog

166
00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,360
Speaker 1: from these things back and forth and the vacillation that

167
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,040
Speaker 1: takes that has taken place with it, so it doesn't

168
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:51,760
Speaker 1: doesn't go a long way to give confidence, I think

169
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,160
Speaker 1: to too many people. Uh, you know, anytime you kind

170
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 1: of change change in midstream like this, and such a

171
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,920
Speaker 1: and over the top case. I was talking to somebody

172
00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,760
Speaker 1: the other Day'll just okay, if we had never heard

173
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,120
Speaker 1: of Ellen Greenberg, all right, from a media perspective, and

174
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 1: you're in the world of forensic pathology and you work

175
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,640
Speaker 1: this case. This is the kind of case that if

176
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,920
Speaker 1: you went to a scientific meeting, you know, you can

177
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,160
Speaker 1: go to the American Academy of Forensic Science meeting in

178
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:38,160
Speaker 1: the pathology section, and you've got a forensic pathologist that says,

179
00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, says in the you know, in the in

180
00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,559
Speaker 1: the program, I'm going to be talking about a case

181
00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:51,559
Speaker 1: involving a suicide where an individual has sustained twenty plus

182
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,040
Speaker 1: you know, short force injuries. It'd be a packed house

183
00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,320
Speaker 1: because this is rare's hens teeth. It just doesn't have happened,

184
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:06,640
Speaker 1: you know. I Self inflicted stabbings don't happen very very often.

185
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,320
Speaker 1: And in my in just in my experience, I've got

186
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,800
Speaker 1: a very small piece of the pie. All right. Here,

187
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,200
Speaker 1: there's people that have different experiences all over, But in

188
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,960
Speaker 1: my time in New Orleans and Atlanta work too, I

189
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,920
Speaker 1: think with a knife. And one of those was a

190
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 1: paranoid schotzphrontic guy that thought he had a microphone in

191
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,760
Speaker 1: his forearm, and I've told the story before, people will

192
00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,760
Speaker 1: have heard it. And he just kind of took a

193
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,720
Speaker 1: filet knife and car. I think it was over thirty

194
00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,839
Speaker 1: individual in sized areas where he was just digging through,

195
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,680
Speaker 1: digging through his arm to look for a microphone because

196
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,680
Speaker 1: he thought the CIA had put it in. That's not

197
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:50,079
Speaker 1: really suicide, right, you know. The other was a case

198
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,200
Speaker 1: of it was an abdominal stable. And there may have

199
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 1: been two. We're talking twenty. We're talking twenty that are

200
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 1: in these kind of desperately different areas. One thing that

201
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,680
Speaker 1: really never comes up, you know. You see that that

202
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:14,720
Speaker 1: animation that uh that rendering of of of Ellen, and

203
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,240
Speaker 1: I urge anybody go look at it. The attitude of

204
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:27,120
Speaker 1: the blade actually changes in this the You've got different tracks.

205
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,840
Speaker 1: They track in different directions. You've got some that are

206
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:35,760
Speaker 1: uh uh more at an angle uh from left to right.

207
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 1: You've got some in the vertical plane that are going

208
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,040
Speaker 1: from above to below, from below to above, from straight on.

209
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,080
Speaker 1: And the blade itself actually turns. You can see the

210
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 1: attitude of the scene with the insult as it goes

211
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:56,120
Speaker 1: into the body. It will have rotated multiple times. It

212
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 1: was just very very strange to me that that this

213
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,280
Speaker 1: could be accomplished by one person and some of them.

214
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,760
Speaker 1: You know, admittedly, some of these insults that she sustained

215
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 1: were superficial. Someone says, well, those are, and I think

216
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 1: the latest report she classified those as hesitations, and generally

217
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:27,480
Speaker 1: with hesitations with sharp force injuries. You're thinking about the

218
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,760
Speaker 1: cutting of the neck and the cutting of a wrist

219
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:38,320
Speaker 1: with hesitations. Okay, I've never heard of stabbings detailed that

220
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 1: way as hesitations, and which was kind of odd to me.

221
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:49,720
Speaker 1: It's kind of odd phraseology, I don't know, very peculiar.

222
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,960
Speaker 1: And you know, she admitted that she discovered more stepwoots,

223
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,720
Speaker 1: more stab woings upon her review of the case, and

224
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:03,840
Speaker 1: more contusions she's got. You know, Ellen had this this

225
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:09,920
Speaker 1: really kind of profound contusion on the anterior neck. You know,

226
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,840
Speaker 1: if you look at it very closely, almost looks like

227
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,600
Speaker 1: a hand. Perhaps impossible to marry that up. But she

228
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 1: had also contusions over multiple locations of her body. I

229
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,560
Speaker 1: asked Josh and Sandy early on the Parents, you know,

230
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,680
Speaker 1: talking about this case when I was on air with

231
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,240
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace said, does she have any kind of equilibrium

232
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,120
Speaker 1: issues at all because you know, one of the things

233
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 1: that we do in medical legal debt investigation, if we've

234
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,400
Speaker 1: got unexplained injuries, there has to be a scientific explanation

235
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 1: for them, right. I want to know if she had

236
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 1: a big question. I wonder if she had problem with

237
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,920
Speaker 1: clotting at all. I want to know if she had

238
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,440
Speaker 1: equilibrium issues where like maybe she's unsteady gait, she's bouncing

239
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,600
Speaker 1: into walls, you know, bumping into furniture. I wanted to

240
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 1: know if she had drug or alcohol problem. It was

241
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no, you know. And and that

242
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,400
Speaker 1: was a couple of years ago when I first asked

243
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 1: them about that, because they did just know this stuff

244
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:22,120
Speaker 1: really married up and and with contusions in particular, you know,

245
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 1: I want to know what what the status of resolve

246
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 1: was on each one of those. You know, how far

247
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 1: down the down down the road to healing are we

248
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 1: were each one of those contusions insized to get an

249
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,000
Speaker 1: idea the level of resolve. So I don't know it

250
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: just the whole thing, to me from a medical legal

251
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 1: perspective was just bizarre. Uh, everything from the administrative stuff

252
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 1: to I think and I can't remember, forgive me, I

253
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 1: can't I remember this renowned neuropathologist, Lucy Oh, doctor Rourke. Yeah, yeah,

254
00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,280
Speaker 1: I mean out of all the people in the world,

255
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,240
Speaker 1: out of all the people in the world that you

256
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 1: could say that you've turned tissues over to. And actually

257
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 1: it wasn't just like passively stated in the report. It

258
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,000
Speaker 1: was like Osborne saying, a hand delivered this to her,

259
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,080
Speaker 1: and you got Lucy Rourke saying, I don't have any

260
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,560
Speaker 1: record of this. I'm seeing this.

261
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:31,479
Speaker 2: I'll tell you.

262
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,159
Speaker 3: I have a theory about that, actually, because I was

263
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,480
Speaker 3: at that office around that time period for months and

264
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,600
Speaker 3: I know how things roll there, and I also rotated,

265
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 3: so it was the main office was located in West Philly,

266
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,640
Speaker 3: and it was in a walking distance of Children's Hospital

267
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,720
Speaker 3: and University of Penn, So I was rotating at all

268
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:58,200
Speaker 3: three of those places within the year, and oftentimes if

269
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,640
Speaker 3: they wanted to have a neuro path console, they were

270
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,119
Speaker 3: able to just walk over to Chop and show Lucy

271
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:05,800
Speaker 3: she was there.

272
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 2: I met her. She's an amazing woman. Yeah, just awesome.

273
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 3: So I have a feeling that Marlin, possibly he could

274
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 3: have just totally fudged it, of course, but I also

275
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,199
Speaker 3: have a feeling that it's possible that he just walked

276
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 3: over there and said can I show you something? And

277
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 3: that was it. It wasn't like a formal consul. And that's

278
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,720
Speaker 3: just one possibility. But I think obviously the big problem

279
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,680
Speaker 3: we talked with Joe Jacqueline about was the police investigation

280
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,199
Speaker 3: part of it that was completely botched. But also just

281
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 3: think about from a medical examiner's perspective. I knew Marlon

282
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,879
Speaker 3: when he was a resident, and I wouldn't say that

283
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 3: he was like a shining star of a.

284
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 2: Doctor, so he gets the case.

285
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 3: I mean, can some of this be too that there's

286
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,640
Speaker 3: just comp like you were saying with JFK, like an

287
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,120
Speaker 3: inexperienced person was looking at the autopsy from the beginning.

288
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,159
Speaker 3: So now when everybody goes back, including Lindsay, who was

289
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 3: also a resident under me, and she was probably in

290
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,679
Speaker 3: her twenties when this happened, she was a resident, she

291
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 3: she wasn't even an attending yet, Like, how are you

292
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,040
Speaker 3: supposed to go back and all you have now is

293
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,520
Speaker 3: just photographs and they might not even be good photographs because.

294
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're you know, because I've been Lord knows, I've

295
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 1: had to take a look at photos from not just

296
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,400
Speaker 1: autopsies from crom saying, so you look at this and you're, yeah,

297
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,439
Speaker 1: what what is this? You know, and and particularly when

298
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 1: you're on the the when you're on the technical level,

299
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 1: that path assistance and pathologist are on uh, and you're

300
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: lacking clarity and that from a clinical perspective, that's a

301
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 1: train wreck waiting to happen, and you're having to breathe

302
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 1: life back into the scene that occurred. You know how

303
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,719
Speaker 1: many other cases have they worked in Philly since that

304
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 1: point in time? I don't know. There's not enough numbers

305
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 1: to count. And yeah, and I don't know if it

306
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 1: was I don't know if it was a perfect storm.

307
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 1: I do really take exception with the idea that he

308
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 1: would walk into a room with police and in a

309
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,480
Speaker 1: DA and they're not be a written record of this.

310
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 1: You know what was truly communicated at that point in time. Well,

311
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna we're going to urge you, I guess, I

312
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 1: don't know, you know who knows what was actually passed

313
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 1: between though, to change this ruling. You understand me, doctor,

314
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 1: We're going to change the ruling. You're going to change

315
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 1: the ruling. And you know, you get hung on that

316
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 1: and you think, wow, that's that's really kind of sinister,

317
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 1: you know when you think about it, because in our world,

318
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 1: I don't. It's not that I don't want to be

319
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: associated with police officers, teach cops, you know, love cops,

320
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 1: all right. However, we're an independent voice, you know, we're

321
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I don't. I'm not. I'm not

322
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: in the business of and people take exception me saying this.

323
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 1: I'm not in the business of trying to find justice. Okay,

324
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 1: I'm I want scientific truth. That's enough on my plate.

325
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 1: Let the courts handle the justice part, and the defense

326
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: and the prosecution handled justice part. We're not in that business,

327
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 1: all right. We're here to have scientific truth. What is

328
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 1: it that suddenly compelled you to change this ruling from

329
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: a hobbicide, which at its basic definition is defined as

330
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: death at the hand of another What is it that

331
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,640
Speaker 1: got you off of that point to where you're going

332
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 1: to change this to suicide. Now, I would be much

333
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 1: more in clon to say, yeah, you know, well, I'll

334
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: roll with undetermined. You know, I'll roll with undetermined at

335
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: this point. But that's a big leap. That's a big

336
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 1: leap to say that you know, this didn't, this wasn't

337
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: at her own hand, this was, uh, at someone else's hand,

338
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: and then go back and say that it was at

339
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 1: her hand over and over and over again.

340
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 3: It's it's just a very difficult case because there are

341
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 3: there are some if you, I think that a lot

342
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 3: of times when we're talking about this case, we just

343
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 3: leave out all of the things that other things that

344
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: were going on, especially psych things that seem to have

345
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 3: been going on. And like you were saying, she has bruises,

346
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 3: and that might very well be possible and even potentially

347
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 3: a sign of abuse. But uh, you know, from the

348
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 3: parents perspective, from every one's perspective, it seemed like they

349
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: had a good relationship, although obviously people in abusive relationships

350
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 3: hide that from their loved ones all the time. But

351
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 3: I personally didn't think that they did have a good

352
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 3: relationship because you know, at the time, I was a

353
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 3: woman her age, and I would never call my parents

354
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 3: being with my husband or my fiance at the time

355
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 3: and saying that I wanted to move home because I

356
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 3: was upset about my teaching job. You want to be

357
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 3: with you just want to be with your partner, And

358
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 3: the fact that she wanted to move home makes me

359
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 3: think that things weren't good with him, And then I

360
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 3: thought it was super super weird that she went to

361
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 3: a psychiatrist three times in one week. Unless I don't know,

362
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 3: if they're wealthy and they could just afford to do that.

363
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 3: I just feel like regular people don't have access to

364
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: a psychiatrist like that unless they're in a crisis.

365
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and maybe if he hit a critical mass.

366
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: I don't know. And there's been a lot made of

367
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 1: things on the h on her vanity in the bathroom

368
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: where there was packing going on, and people had talked

369
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: about that as well. I think that there's one image

370
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: of that floating around out there somewhere where you know,

371
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: there's like makeup and all the essentials that ladies need,

372
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: you know, when they're leaving, that that was there in place.

373
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: I thought that that was kind of interesting as well.

374
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: It's certainly something that you know, we would have made

375
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: note of. And I'm not saying the Emmy investigator didn't

376
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: do a good job at the scene. I think they

377
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: did actually a very good job, because their their report

378
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: is contained within it's contained within that trunch of documents

379
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: that came from the Emmy. I do take exception to

380
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: the fact that it seems as though the police were

381
00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: predisposed to just being suicide at that moment. Tom and

382
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: the adages. Uh, you know, every death is a homicide

383
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: until proven otherwise. Well, what what proof did you have

384
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: at the scene at that moment time that this was

385
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: in fact suicide? When you've got this over the top

386
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: number of insults to her body, shouldn't give it a pause?

387
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: You know, the next day, if I'm remembering correctly, the

388
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: scene had already been released.

389
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they cleaned it up.

390
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. And that that to me was really bizarre. Uh,

391
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: that they were allowed to have access. I think uh,

392
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: I think Ellen's uh laptop was removed, you know from scene,

393
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: and other items that you know could hold clues perhaps

394
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: you know, to state of mind, those sorts of things,

395
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: and you know who you know, once something has been

396
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: removed from a scene, see, obviously it goes without staying saying,

397
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: but it's no longer pristine at that point in Tom,

398
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: you have to treat it. I don't care how long

399
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: it takes. I don't care what kind of level of

400
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: inconvenience it causes somebody. You can't get a suit for

401
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: a funeral, I don't know, you know, there's always target.

402
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: I don't know what to tell you, because your needs

403
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: at that moment in time to have access to personal

404
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: items are trumped by the need to perform a thorough investigation.

405
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: So it's again, you know, I come back to the

406
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: level of trauma she had sustained, and it's so glaring

407
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: to me also that you know, I don't know. I'd

408
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts on this biomechanically. Do you

409
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: think it's even plausible that she could have self inflicted

410
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,479
Speaker 1: this many wounds posteriorly? That's one of the things that

411
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: you know that has always struck me about this be

412
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: able to reach back and facilitate this with this particular knife.

413
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 3: Well, one of the one of the most because a

414
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: lot of the posterior wounds were very superficial. And one

415
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,719
Speaker 3: of the one that has been going around that was

416
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: that they were saying she would not been able to

417
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 3: stab herself because it nicked. I know that one report

418
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 3: said it nicked a dora matter, but the other one

419
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 3: said that it partially at least put an incision into it.

420
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: But then when I.

421
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 3: Read the report of that, they said that there was

422
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 3: no hemorrhage around that, so they were saying something about her.

423
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 3: She was already dead at that point. Is it possible,

424
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: I'm just putting this out there that that was just

425
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: purely an incision made by a scalpabla at this section?

426
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: Oh wow, you know I have not had anybody say

427
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 1: that to this point when and I can't forgive me,

428
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: I can't remember the lady's name that you know that

429
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 1: reveals this in this this deposition. I think you referenced

430
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: her earlier.

431
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: There's two Lindsay's. So Lindsay Simon is the.

432
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: Current medical experimenter and this was this was revealed by

433
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 3: the other Yeah.

434
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, the neuropath, which she didn't generate a report on.

435
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: Apparently that this came out during the deposition. I do

436
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: know that. And and she in her statement she's kind

437
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: of watling on it. You know, could be this could

438
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: be that. So that's not necessarily absolutely positively definitive. Could

439
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: it have been nicked at post? Perhaps perhaps it could

440
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: have been, you know, and again giving her the benefit

441
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: of the doubt, she's looking at these tissues now several

442
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: years stamp range from this. Now she's not physically present

443
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: for the post. That's it again. This goes back to

444
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: an administrative issue, you know.

445
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 3: So a another thing that I want to say is

446
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: that it appears that everything first she stabbed, she stabbed herself,

447
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: or she was stabbed in the back posteriorly obviously they said,

448
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: Now again this could be wrong too, but the fatal

449
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: wound was in the heart, and the knife was in

450
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: the heart, so that had to be the last one. Yes,

451
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: So if that was true, then you're saying that the

452
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: wound in the back, she was already dead. So then

453
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: she would have had to someone herself, or someone would

454
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: have had to restab her in the back, or anyone would.

455
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 3: And I just think even if it was a homicide

456
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: or so obviously if it's a suicide, she wouldn't be

457
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: able to do it because she was already dead. But

458
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 3: if it was a homicide, it would be weird to

459
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: stab someone in the back a lot, a bunch of

460
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 3: times and then go around the front and and go

461
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 3: to the back again.

462
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And you've got a lot of movement, a

463
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: lot of repositioning. The blood doesn't really extend out any

464
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: further than away from that particular station where she was

465
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: at the sink. Another uh, you know, odd thing. You know,

466
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 1: she's obviously cutting up fruit, you know, at that at

467
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: that position, in order to prepare like fruit salad or

468
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: whatever it was she was doing, and she suddenly has

469
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: the urge at that moment Tom to take a knife

470
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: and self inflict while she's cutting up fruit, you know,

471
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: you know, at the kitchen counter. Kind of odd.

472
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: Did they ever consult any psychiatrists about the interaction with

473
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 3: because in that period of time when she had seen

474
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: the psychiatrist, I feel like she was she was given

475
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 3: zole off and obviously, like that takes two weeks to work,

476
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 3: and it didn't work quick enough, so then they gave

477
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: her xanax, and then she was getting ambying and all.

478
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: Did you did they ever talk to anybody to see

479
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 3: if those drug interactions can cause like an acute psychosis

480
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: or something.

481
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. That is a fantastic question. Now, are

482
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: you asking that from the perspective of family or from

483
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: UH from the medical legal perspective, because I don't have

484
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: an answer for either one of those. I don't know

485
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: that the Greenberg's consulted consulted UH somebody that deals in psychopharmacology,

486
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: you know, that could give definitive answers about that.

487
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: UH.

488
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: I do know that with certain of these meds, and

489
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: it's a it's a real cocktail too, isn't it. You know,

490
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: you've got all of the stuff interacting with one another.

491
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: I know sometimes you can have people that will have

492
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: a break mentally. You know in that you know, and

493
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: you you you made the point relative to the zillof

494
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: that it does you have to build build that particular

495
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: medication in your system for it to begin to work effectively.

496
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: I don't have an answer to that, I really don't.

497
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: I don't know that they did, and I don't know

498
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: that the medical examiner did either. I would imagine that

499
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: if this case does in fact move forward in any

500
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: civil civil manner, that we're going to hear more about

501
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: psychopharmic collegy here though.

502
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 4: There's another detail from that day I don't think a

503
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 4: lot of people talk about, which is that she called

504
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 4: all of her students' families to make sure they all

505
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 4: got home from school that day, okay, because.

506
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: It was snowing.

507
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 4: And while that is a sweet gesture, I think it's

508
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 4: kind of unusual.

509
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, I talked to Kim, my wife,

510
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: who's a retired school teacher, about that particularly and she

511
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: she just had you know, I don't know that it's anecdotal,

512
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: but you know, she had said that in the past.

513
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: You know, in South we don't get much much snow

514
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: down down down this way. We do have ice storms,

515
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: so and actually I think they're worse than snowstorms many times,

516
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 1: particularly for us that are so handicapped in driving on

517
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 1: any in the South, on any kind of icy surface.

518
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: And my wife did say that she had called in

519
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: the past, she had a list of student phone numbers, family,

520
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: you know, contact information to make sure their kids, you know,

521
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: made it home. She had done that in past, particularly

522
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: when she was not so much in middle school, but

523
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: when she was at the elementary school level, very early

524
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: in her career. I do remember having a you know,

525
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: you know what my wife and I talked about relative

526
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: to this side, I don't know, but uh, you know,

527
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that that's unreasonable, particularly if

528
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: you've got a teacher that's really kind of married to

529
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: these kids. She's worried about them, you know, and from

530
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: all accounts, you know, she's a pretty good teacher. I

531
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: think I haven't heard anybody cast dispersions upon her abilities

532
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: as a teacher. From a parental standpoint, you know, she

533
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,959
Speaker 1: hor horrible teacher. Wish our kids hadn't been with her.

534
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: There's always some of that that goes on in public education.

535
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, it is a sweet move. But

536
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: I also think that, you know, she could be concerned

537
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: about our students' welfare as well. And again, you know,

538
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: when you're kind of breaking down suicides, that's one of

539
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: the things that you look at. Or these behavioral connections

540
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: are observable behaviors, you know, how are they manifesting in

541
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: a person's life that may have made a choice at

542
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: that point in time to end their life. Doesn't necessarily

543
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: seem like something that they would do. Someone else might

544
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: argue the fact that, well, she's closing all accounts at

545
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: that point in time, if she was, in fact so subtle,

546
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: So it can be argued both ways.

547
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, that's interesting to hear because I just

548
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 4: I definitely can pull it back and say that's really

549
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: awesome of her and really sweet. But I was thinking

550
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 4: about it with you know, all the medication she was on,

551
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 4: her wanting to quit her job, her wanting to move

552
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 4: out of her house and move in with her parents,

553
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 4: and I just thought it was something that stood out

554
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 4: to me.

555
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: See, it's weird to us because we're from Philly and

556
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: we're not nice people. People from the South are very

557
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 3: they're nice and they would do something like that, but

558
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 3: in Philly, it's just it's unusual for a phil We

559
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: just like, just like my kids the other day were like,

560
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 3: I was out front and someone just said hi to me,

561
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: and I'm just like, yeah, that's they're just being nice.

562
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: They're just saying hi. That that happens, It does in

563
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: fact happen.

564
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: And just keep in mind with people in the South

565
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: will be very nice to you to your face, all right,

566
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: but they're going to talk about you after you walk away.

567
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: The cool thing about people in Philly is that if

568
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: they want you to go to hell, they're gonna tell

569
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: you to get hell to your face. And then there's

570
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: no lack of clarity there with the instructions. You know

571
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: where you stand all right. In South, you know it

572
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: could be questionable.

573
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 2: It's so true.

574
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 4: We always talk about this because me and my husband

575
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 4: go to Tennessee a lot and people are always like.

576
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: Hi, how you do it? And We're like, what's your ankle?

577
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: What do you want?

578
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: What are you trying to get out of me. Yeah, exactly.

579
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 4: This episode is brought to you by the Grossroom.

580
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: Guys.

581
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: This week's high profile death dissection in the Grosser Room

582
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 3: is on a really interesting case that was presented on

583
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: the show Unsolved Mysteries, and in keeping up with our

584
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: Halloween theme, we thought what better than a human head

585
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 3: that was found in a wooded area. This case is

586
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 3: super interesting because it's not quite solved yet and it

587
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 3: may not even be a homicide case, So check that

588
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 3: out and we would love to know your thoughts on that.

589
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,959
Speaker 3: One of the best parts of the case that many

590
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: people describe is that it almost I mean, if finding

591
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 3: a head in the woods is disturbing enough, but it

592
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 3: also has what people have said is a tiger king

593
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: like twist in the middle of the story, because you're

594
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 3: just like, is this how people are living right now?

595
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just it's really nuts. We also

596
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 3: have a really cool case of oh it wasn't cool

597
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 3: for them, but arts and craft projects that have gone wrong.

598
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 3: So all that and more in the gross Room. You

599
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,479
Speaker 3: could get in for five ninety nine a month.

600
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 4: Head over to the Grossroom dot com now to sign up.

601
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 3: All right, let's move on to some of the stories

602
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 3: going on in the news this week. So the story

603
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 3: about this this Mango founder, I'm curious of your thoughts

604
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: of this.

605
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 2: You want to.

606
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 3: Talk about it a little bit, Yeah, right, yeah, Race,

607
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: talk about.

608
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: It a little bit, just for anyone that's unfamiliar.

609
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 4: Well, our listeners might remember we covered this case back

610
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 4: in December four where this guy had died and at first, initially,

611
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 4: initially investigator thought it was an accident. So he was

612
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 4: the founder of Mango. His name's Isaac andck. They thought

613
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 4: that he felt three hundred and twenty feet to his

614
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 4: death during a hike with his son and it was accidental.

615
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 4: But now they're investigating the sun for a potential homicide.

616
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 3: Joseph, how I mean this guy fell equivalent to a

617
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 3: thirty story building over three hundred feet yep. I know,

618
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 3: if people fall from a shorter distance, there might be

619
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 3: a way to be able to tell if they were

620
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 3: if they fell over unexpectedly versus they intentionally jumped or something.

621
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: But I mean, if there were no cameras present, how

622
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 3: would this homicide investigation go down?

623
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. It has to be some kind of

624
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: circumstantial data that would come in unless The only thing

625
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: I can think of from a forensic pathology standpoint is

626
00:38:54,760 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: if and this is really a reach, if they found

627
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 1: again going back to hemorrhage versus non hemorrhage, if they

628
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: found insults to his body that were that didn't have

629
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: any focal areas of hemorrhage, you know, any kind of

630
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: continuion I mean, not contusions, but any kind of bloot

631
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: force impact that created a laceration perhaps. And I know

632
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: that's really a far reach. Uh you know, because I've

633
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 1: worked I've worked cases from great heights, you know, where

634
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: people have fallen. Yeah, I've had cases. I had a

635
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: couple of jumpers in Atlanta off of I think the Marriott,

636
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: which interestingly enough was an interior jump, and I think

637
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: that was twenty five stories, jumped into the atrium. Interestingly enough,

638
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: it was while the International Olympic Committee was having breakfast

639
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: in the foyer, I know. And and then I had

640
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: another guy that went through a window at an adjacent

641
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: hotel and he fell probably twenty about twenty stories and

642
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: landed on the pool house. His brain literally, it wasn't

643
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: an extrusion. The brain literally came out of the cranial

644
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: vault and wound up in the hot tub and there

645
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: were families out there swimming. He had been doing math

646
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: for about would two other guys been doing math for

647
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: about three days, I think, And he was actually a

648
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: substance abuse counselor. I'll never forget that. And he jumped

649
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: through one of those windows that's supposed to be in

650
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: a hallway in one of these hotels that is you

651
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: can't penetrate, and he jumped through it nude. Super bizarre case.

652
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: But anyway, I digress. I would think that you would

653
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: have to have some kind of circumstantial data to back

654
00:40:54,200 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: this up. Did the sun upon further you know, interview,

655
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: Did he say something directly to the police that brought

656
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: up suspicions, or has he said something to someone else

657
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: at some utterance that he made some spontaneous utterance and

658
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: somebody's like, I don't like the way that sounds. One

659
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: of the cops, and now they're kind of lifting the

660
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: lid back on this thing, you know, and going to

661
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: change it from well, in our circumstances, I think that

662
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: probably would go from until we had substance proof they

663
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: were going to rule it. They might take it off

664
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: of backs and go to undetermined toil have enough to

665
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: rule it as onsite from a medical legal perspective. But

666
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: in this was Spain, correct. Yeah, So in Spain, if

667
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: I'm remembering correctly, the forensic medicine people are not separate

668
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: from the cops. It's all housed in one. Yeah, it's

669
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: not good, So you don't necessarily have an independent investigation.

670
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: I might be, you know, stating that wrongly, but I've

671
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: had a case out of spending that I've covered in

672
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: the media, and it seems like that was the case.

673
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying though about

674
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 3: the hammers. So you're you're just trying to say that

675
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 3: it's possible that there was some kind of a fight

676
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 3: and he could have or strangulation or anything, that he

677
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 3: could have been dead before he even hit the ground.

678
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. And if you know, that's interesting too

679
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: that you mentioned strangulation if it's some kind of a

680
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: six year old kind of a VET, But why wouldn't

681
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: that not have been noted earlier on, you know, at

682
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: the initial post, because that's something that would be obvious.

683
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you couldn't get contact trauma, you know,

684
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: from striking the neck or something like that. But I

685
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: don't think that anything's really going to mimic strangulation as

686
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: opposed to being a blunt for strike, you know, with

687
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, coming down the you know, a rock wall,

688
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: or you know, bouncing off deciduous rocks, boulders that are

689
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: underlying it.

690
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 4: Seems like this made inconsistent statements, which is why they

691
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 4: want to go look back at it. But they're also

692
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 4: saying in the same breath, we're pretty sure it's not

693
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 4: a homicide, but.

694
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: We're just making sure. But you should have made sure.

695
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 3: From I mean, the guy's a multi billionaire, so there

696
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: is definitely I was actually.

697
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: Going to say that because you know this, this this

698
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: case is well People magazine is covering it. Yeah, pregnant. Pause, okay,

699
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 1: People Magazine, Daily Mail, your post, not so much post,

700
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: but those two entities billionaire, all right, you know, these

701
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: same people that have to report every time when of

702
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: the Kardashians breaks wind. So I don't know, you know,

703
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: if there's money that is involved in it, and I

704
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: say money, I'm talking about its salacious. So I don't know.

705
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: This kid may have done as a kid, you know,

706
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: he's in his forties, but I don't know that he

707
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: necessarily did anything at this point in Tom. Yeah, they're

708
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: gonna they're gonna say this in order to you know,

709
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: sling more ink if you will. Didn't sling ink anymore,

710
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, yeah, and running some ice reputation process.

711
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right.

712
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 2: All right? So what about this? All right? The next story, Ray,

713
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 2: why don't you get into that? All right?

714
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 4: So, women working at a Massachusetts school for kids with

715
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 4: mental and behavioral problems has died after a fourteen year

716
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 4: old student kicked her in the chest. So it seems

717
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 4: like the kid was trying to leave their dorm room.

718
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 4: It's one of those behavioral schools where kids live there.

719
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 4: I of course had to look in to it and

720
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 4: see if it was one of those really problematic ones

721
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 4: that has been coming up a lot, But everything I

722
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 4: read about online seemed that they had a pretty good reputation.

723
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 4: But the kid was trying to leave the dorm room

724
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 4: without permission, and then this staff or along with some

725
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 4: other school employees, were trying to restrain them, and that's

726
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 4: when the kick happened, and the staffer ended up collapsing

727
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 4: and died at the hospital the next day.

728
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you say? They had her in Joseph.

729
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: Well, I think that she had a rhythm event and it,

730
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 1: you know, and it caused her to go into a rest.

731
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: I think it's that simple. It's almost akin to and

732
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: again not know anything about the cardiac pathology. Their rule,

733
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: this is a homicide, assuming they hopefully they did an

734
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: autopsy and they would have revealed that in the dissection.

735
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: I'd like to know what level of occlusion she may

736
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 1: have had in her cordineraty Vessels, see if there were

737
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: any other kind of underlying cardiac problems she may have

738
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 1: had that she wasn't aware of. But that's kind of immaterial,

739
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: you know, the fact that you've got cause and effect

740
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: the question. Had a case many years ago where I

741
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: had a young man that my office didn't atlant that uh,

742
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: and I used this as illustrating in my classes at

743
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: Jackson State. I'm talking to my kids about if the

744
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: two two people had never met, would the person that

745
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 1: died have lived to see that the next sun Ross? Okay,

746
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: so you have to ask yourself that question of baseline,

747
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: if she had not been kicked struck, would she have

748
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: seen the next sun Ross? Well? Probably not so, cause

749
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: and effect, because this individual struck her. She died, all right,

750
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: there's no other way you can explain it.

751
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 3: But she was going to die anyway. That's like, I

752
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 3: kind of know there's a really really high profile case

753
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 3: that you could say.

754
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 2: That about too. Yeah, I'm sure you know what I'm

755
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 2: talking about.

756
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 3: But you're yeah, so you're saying it autopsy like, did

757
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 3: she have you know, coronary artery blockage and three of

758
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 3: her main coronary arteries, and that that just a little

759
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: even if it wasn't a super hard kick, that would

760
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 3: have killed her normally, even could have set her into having,

761
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: you know, a cardiac event because of that.

762
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if this thing goes to trial, which I

763
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: think the perpetrator is fourteen years old, I'm not mistaken.

764
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: I don't know that anything's going to be done to

765
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: this person at all. But if it were to go

766
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: to trial, simply from a clinical standpoint, I got to

767
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 1: tell you, I'd be fascinated to listen to the cardiopathology

768
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: stuff about it. I really would, because that's going to

769
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: be a question. You know. It's kind of like, you know,

770
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: you know, we work homicides most of the time. When

771
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: you cover, when you're talking about homicide people you know,

772
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: kind of lean in when the pathologists is sitting there

773
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: and they're talking about wound tracks and all that sort

774
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: of stuff. In a case like this, yeah, you'd have

775
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists that did the initial autopsy. I'd be

776
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: fascinated to know if they sent this heart to somebody

777
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: that specialized in cardiopathology to really, you know, do a

778
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: deep dive. Maybe even cardiologists will be consulted. You'll see

779
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: them on the stand and so I'm kind of a

780
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: nerd like you guys, or you know, it would it

781
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: would from that perspective, it'd be certainly engaging, I think.

782
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, uh, you know we've had this, do you

783
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: do you guys remember a few years ago there was

784
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: this move to and you still, uh, my grandson plays

785
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: baseball and if you're if you're pitching, you know, they

786
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 1: make the kids wear that that productive padding, that sternal

787
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: padding thing that they have to wear under their under

788
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: their jerseys because these kids were getting hotlined with a

789
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 1: ball and come back. There were a couple of cases

790
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: where kids will be destructed in chests and they go

791
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: in cardiac arrest. It's kind of the same same mechanism,

792
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: I think.

793
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 2: So medio Cortes.

794
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 4: Is that what happened with Tamar Hamlin when he got tackled?

795
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: Well maybe, do you mean maybe.

796
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 3: Because there might be other reasons anyway, is it possible?

797
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just stop. I guess if.

798
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 3: She got kicked hard enough. This is just the theory too,

799
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: that she could because she was fifty five years old, Like,

800
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 3: there's a possibility she could have had some early osteoporosis

801
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 3: and her bones were a little bit more fragile, and yeah,

802
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 3: she broke a rib or something she could have had

803
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 3: like cardiac TAMPAAD or something like.

804
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, excellent, excellent point. And you know we see

805
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: that lots of toms with sternal fractures, but particularly rib

806
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: rib issues. I'm doing a gross dissection right now. Now

807
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: you I didn't tell you about this. I don't know

808
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: if I told you the last time we saw each other,

809
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: but I now have a gross lab from my undergraduate

810
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: forensic students. So we've actually got cadavers, which is we're

811
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: the first school I think in the Southeast that were

812
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: undergraduate forensics students have access to bodies. And this first

813
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: first individual that we're doing, he had tamponaud which was

814
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: my kids got to see.

815
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: That it's so exciting, right.

816
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 3: That was actually the very first autopsy I did by

817
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 3: myself was a cardiac tamponaud and I was you know,

818
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 3: you never see it yourself. You just hear about it

819
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: in books and stuff with them. When you open it,

820
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 3: you're like, oh my god, I know what this is.

821
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 2: It's so exciting.

822
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's striking, it really is. And I was trying

823
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: to explain. I was trying to explain that to you,

824
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: and the kids don't have a front of reference for it.

825
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: They're just seeing a decendent. It was like, you need

826
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: to take a look at this. This is something that

827
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: you know you're not going to see, certainly as investigators,

828
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: as police officers, were very fortunate to be able to

829
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: see this at this moment in time. And but yeah,

830
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: if and again this is a lot of this. First,

831
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: there's a couple of things here. Let me let me

832
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: back up. I'm going to be interested to see if

833
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:09,439
Speaker 1: there was how long she lasted and the dynamic. Did

834
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: she immediately go into cardiocchorist okay as a result of strike,

835
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 1: or was it something where she's short of breath, scrabbing

836
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: her chests and I can't breathe, I can't breathe, you know,

837
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: like this, and you've got to see kind of rolling

838
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: up or did she go into immediate cardiac arrest, which

839
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: might be more indicative of like a rhythm event, or

840
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: was it you know, slow bleed you know, into the

841
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: into the pair cardium. I think that's going to be

842
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: very interesting. And to see how how extensive the impact was,

843
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: you know, to see how diffuse this was, and any

844
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: kind of underlying structural trauma you you had mentioned, uh

845
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: well putting words in your mouth. I mentioned Sternham, you

846
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: mentioned Ribs. I'd be very interested to see, you know,

847
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: kind of the architecture in there, see if it was

848
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: disrupted at all.

849
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:02,399
Speaker 4: And.

850
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 1: If there were any other associated traumas as well. Uh,

851
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: were there any contusions on the head, you know, did

852
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: she struck her head when she went back. I'd like

853
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 1: to know about her airway and I'd like to know

854
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: about her lungs as well. You let's see if there's

855
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, what else is there you know, peripheral to

856
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: that to the actual strike. I think that's going to

857
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: be important as well.

858
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 4: I mean, you guys think about all these details because

859
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,760
Speaker 4: as a lay person, I'm just accepting it at face value.

860
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 4: She got kicked she died, you know, kicked down then

861
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 4: and the story, Yeah, that's.

862
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 1: What I got to tell you. I had a guy.

863
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: I had a guy one time that uh. And of

864
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: course I'm down here in South not saying it couldn't

865
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: happen in Philly, but I had a guy that was

866
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 1: kicked in the chest by horse and he died.

867
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 2: I would definitely be a suicide here.

868
00:52:58,080 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: Here you go.

869
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 3: All right, So this this is like a heavy on

870
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 3: the mental health issues episode. This one is that happened

871
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 3: this week is so disturbing.

872
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, nineteen year old boy in Staten Island stabbed his

873
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 4: mother's boyfriend to death, sawed off his head, and scooped

874
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 4: his brains out with a spoon and put them into

875
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 4: a blender, and then showed his sixteen year old sister

876
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 4: the scene. I can't imagine walking in on.

877
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 3: Something so Joseph, obviously, you've seen your fair share of

878
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 3: just the most disturbing things that humans should never witness.

879
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 2: And I'm sure it.

880
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 3: You know, you might not think that it takes a

881
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 3: toll on you, but it's still kind of there and buried, right, what,

882
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 3: no hottie you like could you do you ever think

883
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 3: about people who just are not involved in this field

884
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 3: at all. I was just thinking about that when you

885
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 3: were talking about the guy who jumped in his brain

886
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 3: was in a hot tub, and there was people witnessing it,

887
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 3: just regular people that might just be swimmer for a profession,

888
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden come across this extremely graphic, gory,

889
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 3: disturbing thing.

890
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 2: How horrible that must be for them?

891
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is reflectively. I know. I'll keep going

892
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: back to cases I work, but I got let me

893
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: just kind of insert this little ditty here. There's case

894
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: that I use in my classes. I teach a medical

895
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: legal class for undergraduates. And had a guy that was

896
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: an autorotic case that had used a dog collar with

897
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: a chain tied to a hinge on a door in

898
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: a hotel actually a microtel if you've ever heard of those,

899
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: and he look, he was on the bathroom door. And

900
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: the bathroom in this place is like immediately like when

901
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: you open up your door to your hotel room, the

902
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: bathroom door can be visualized right there. So there was

903
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 1: this poor sweet little lady that was working as housekeeper

904
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: and she had just come to us from Guatemala, this

905
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 1: many many years ago, and that's how she found him.

906
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: She was the first person to visualize him. And when

907
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 1: when I got to the seat, she had collapsed onto

908
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: the floor, was leaning a back against the wall with

909
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: her her knees pulled in and she was holding her

910
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: rosary and she was praying, praying the rosary there and

911
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 1: just like vibrating like this. And it was heartbreaking to

912
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: see because you know, she's cleaning, cleaning rooms and here

913
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: you've got this guy suspended from a hinge behind him

914
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: with a dog collar of all things, and he's completely nude.

915
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: He's got velchrome straps that he's got. His hands wrist

916
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: are literally bound sounds really bizarre, but autootic cases are

917
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: bound between his legs so that, you know, not to

918
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: be impolite, but just so he could rub him elf

919
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: essentially by moving the hands back and forth while he's

920
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: deprivating himself with oxygen, depriving himself of oxygen. And that's

921
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 1: what she saw, and I often think about her, and yeah,

922
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: I've been around other cases where people have witnessed the

923
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: most bizarre things and most horrific things. This type of

924
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: thing though, that we're talking about with the blender. I

925
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: got to tell you something. Been covering a lot of

926
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 1: cases on bodybags, and my partner and I two years

927
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: ago did a special presentation at Crime con on dismemberment.

928
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: And the reason we did it is because we were

929
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: covering so many dismemberment cases all of a sudden in

930
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: the news. It's amazing how flooded the news cycle is

931
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: with these cases where somebody is doing something abusive to

932
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: a body. These are not postmartem I mean, these are

933
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: not need to mortem events. These are post mortem events.

934
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: So it's not just the fact that you're committing a homicide.

935
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: The remains are desecrated as well. And this is a

936
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 1: this is a different level here, because you don't just

937
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: have somebody, you know, taking apart or dissecting out of body.

938
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: You've got somebody that's going literally into the cranial vault

939
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: and extracting breath and then rendering it down or pulpifying

940
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: it or doing you know, however you want to phrase it.

941
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 1: This is a completely different plane of evil at this point, Tom,

942
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's if what I am seeing

943
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: is just my own bias view, or if this is real,

944
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: because it seems like there has been a pronounced increase

945
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: in people that are doing these types of things. It's

946
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: almost like it's almost like there's a callous being built

947
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 1: up and people are so desensitized to this point that

948
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: they can go to this extent. I think it was

949
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: about a year and a half ago. I had a

950
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: case that we covered out of Maryland where we had

951
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: a grown woman and her daughter that killed the grandmother,

952
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: dismembered her, and tried to rend her down on the

953
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: gas girl in the backyard. It's like, what the where's

954
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 1: this coming from? You know, a lot of a lot

955
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: of these cases involving children killing parents and doing this dismemberment,

956
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: you know, and people, the psych people will say, well,

957
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: there's a lot of anger and rage you know involved

958
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: in this, forgive my friends, but no shit, Sherlock. Yeah,

959
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: I know that there is. There's also a lot of

960
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: psychothology going on too, and I don't understand how it's

961
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: gotten to this point. So yeah, this this case, I

962
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: might have to dig into this case on body bags

963
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: with your permission. Thanks for bringing it with touch to

964
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: my attention, because this is again another one one of

965
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: these things that is so super bizarre.

966
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 3: So I wanted to Compare this to a recent case

967
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 3: that happened when this woman was stabbed to death on

968
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 3: the train, that that video that was going viral for

969
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 3: about a couple weeks before Charlie Kirk was killed. And

970
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 3: with the details of that case, that was a guy

971
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 3: who was diagnosed with schizophrenia as a teenager, and in

972
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 3: that case, his mom was really on top of it

973
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 3: and trying to get him treatment. And it's like the

974
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 3: same exact thing just happened in this case where this

975
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 3: kid was also diagnosed with schizophrenia as a teenager and

976
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 3: his mom was on top of it the whole time.

977
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 3: He was medicated and he was living with it, and

978
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden he turned eighteen years old,

979
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,439
Speaker 3: same as the Irena case on the train, and then

980
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 3: the parents have absolutely no control over what happens. So

981
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 3: this particular case, this kid, they the mom said that

982
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 3: he got switched onto another medication this past January, and

983
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 3: nobody would talk to her about it and let her

984
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 3: know what was going on, and she said he changed

985
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 3: since then, Like what are we how are we supposed

986
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 3: to function in the same society with people that are

987
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 3: capable of doing something like this and their own mother

988
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 3: doesn't even have any control over them being treated.

989
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well again, I know it's sound like a broken record.

990
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: Along with the course it's out there. There are no

991
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 1: longer psychiatric facilities like we used to have, you know.

992
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 1: And if you say that, people say you don't understand

993
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: the abuse that went on in these places. Yeah, okay,

994
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: We've talked about that. It's a new age. Courts need

995
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: to look at this differently. But I don't want to

996
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: talk about the abuse it might have happened back decades ago.

997
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the abuse that's being perpetrated on,

998
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: like this poor Ukrainian girl that's here trying to make

999
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: a new life and she subjected to him acting out.

1000
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 1: And I hate to even use the term acting out

1001
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 1: in this case, you know, because it diminishes. This is

1002
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 1: a straight up cold blooded homicide that we all saw.

1003
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: How are we supposed to live with this? I'm not

1004
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: interested in how they are supposed to live with it.

1005
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: I'm interested in, you know, because I don't you know,

1006
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: I know that you guys live in Philly, but it's

1007
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:41,919
Speaker 1: like I'm not inclined to take my grandkids to any

1008
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 1: major city now, you know, to do things because I

1009
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, what's lurking around each corner. Is

1010
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 1: it really worth the risk to go out and do

1011
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 1: these things to make yourself available? And she's just trying

1012
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 1: to make a living. She's on public transportation, you know,

1013
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 1: going back and forth to work. This is what she's doing,

1014
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 1: trying to build a new life. And then you mix

1015
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: that in with you know, the institutionalization piece is gone now,

1016
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: and even if they are institutionalized, it's for a very

1017
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 1: brief period of time. I don't know what the assessment

1018
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: level is to say, Okay, you've ticked all these boxes,

1019
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: so now you can walk out the doors. It's still

1020
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: as rigorous as it used to be because the how

1021
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: the cause of the cost of housing somebody with severe

1022
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: mental illness is astronomical. Now, so what are you going

1023
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:35,919
Speaker 1: to do with them? You know, at that point in time,

1024
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: I know what we'll do. We'll give them some kind

1025
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 1: of new cocktail. And obviously they're not being followed. You know,

1026
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 1: these drugs are so very powerful, and I know I'm

1027
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: preaching the choir, you understand this, but these strukes are

1028
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: so very powerful. You can't predict what they're going to do.

1029
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: That's why at least, you know, if you're going to

1030
01:02:55,280 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: administer some type of powerful medication like this, you need

1031
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: to have them in an observable place for a period

1032
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: of time to see if what you're giving them is

1033
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 1: viable for life on the outside. If it's not viable

1034
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 1: in the clinical setting where you're able to assess them

1035
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 1: every single day, how are you feeling doing ongoing blood

1036
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 1: work all these sorts of things. You're just you know,

1037
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: you're just you know, throwing throwing fuel on the fire

1038
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: by doing this, because you're giving them this cocktail and

1039
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: kind of casting them a drift where you know, people

1040
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 1: on public transportation are having a blade driven into them.

1041
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: That's the reality that we're in right now.

1042
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 4: I think that the people that push back are just

1043
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 4: really uninformed about how dangerous this could be. Did you

1044
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 4: read the book Hidden Valley Road?

1045
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 1: No? I never have.

1046
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 2: No, So this book I.

1047
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 4: Encourage everybody to read it. I've talked about it a

1048
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 4: lot at the beginning of this year. It's this book

1049
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 4: about a family that had twelve children and six of

1050
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 4: their sons had schizophrenia, and it is a really great

1051
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 4: inside look into how dangerous it could be and just

1052
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 4: really good understanding of how these people have no control

1053
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 4: of their minds and they just need help, you know

1054
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 4: what I mean.

1055
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you'll see the thread that runs through mass

1056
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: shooters as well, where you know, many of them are

1057
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 1: very powerful medications, or they were previously on very powerful medications.

1058
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: They're not on them any longer. There's nowhere for them

1059
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:34,959
Speaker 1: to be placed where they can be assessed. And I've

1060
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 1: lost so much faith in the therapeutic model at this

1061
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 1: point in time relative to how the mentally ill are treated,

1062
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 1: because it just seems as though that, you know, you

1063
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 1: just throw chemicals at them essentially and hope you do better,

1064
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, and sometimes, you know, all the medication in

1065
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: the world is not the answer. As a matter of fact,

1066
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: it's like you know, playing with the with old dynamite.

1067
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: You're just kind of shacking it up. You don't know

1068
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 1: what the hell is going to happen, And we're seeing

1069
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 1: this kind of come to fruition. I think ye all

1070
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 1: around the.

1071
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:11,840
Speaker 3: Country, Joseph, you make a good point, Like, you know,

1072
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 3: we live in the burbs outside of the city, and

1073
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 3: I used to work in the city and loved it,

1074
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 3: and I've been back recently and I'm just like it's

1075
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 3: it's different. And my kid is there right now today

1076
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 3: as we speak, on a historical Philadelphia walking trip with

1077
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 3: her class, and I had that conversation with her this morning.

1078
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 3: I'm just like, if anyone comes up to you and

1079
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 3: starts talking to you or anything, just don't engage with

1080
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 3: them at all. It just scares the shit out of

1081
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 3: me because she doesn't know how to handle that.

1082
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 2: She lives in the burbs like people don't.

1083
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 3: With the exception of my neighbor saying hi to the outfront,

1084
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 3: they don't have they don't deal with people that are

1085
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 3: legit out of their minds, like going up to them

1086
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 3: and stuff.

1087
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: So no, and all you have to do is kind

1088
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: of you kind of have to and forgive me. I

1089
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 1: can't remember the name of this that main drag in

1090
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: Philly where they have all the zombies, you know, kind

1091
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 1: of walking.

1092
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 3: Aroundton Yeah, yeah, where that you know, if no one

1093
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 3: has seen as videos, you know, do yourself a favorite.

1094
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: Let's let's go back to something about Philly real quick.

1095
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 1: On a lighter note. You know, one of my favorite

1096
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: historical locations in Philly is what it's not the Liberty Bell.

1097
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 1: It's not was it Constitution Hall or the Independence, So

1098
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of it. My favorite spot

1099
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: is I stood on it. Actually had Kim take a

1100
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 1: picture of me standing atop of the site of Ben

1101
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: Franklin's Privy where his outhouse was. I love that spot.

1102
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: And then they've got the little display over there, you know,

1103
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: with everything they pulled out, and I was thinking, he's

1104
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: such he was so brilliant. I'm thinking how much contemplative

1105
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 1: time did he spend in that privy and what did

1106
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 1: he think of when he was sitting there. One of

1107
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 1: my favorite, one of my favorite spots in Philly to

1108
01:06:58,640 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: go to.

1109
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 3: So if when you come visit us, we're going to

1110
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 3: go on a tour. We have a lot of things

1111
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 3: to see, including Kensington. We could drive through there.

1112
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 2: I don't think the.

1113
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 3: Videos do it justice, like it's just but but yeah,

1114
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 3: we'll go check out. I always used to think that

1115
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 3: on my lunch break, I would just want you take

1116
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 3: for granted when you live around here. But I would

1117
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 3: just walk by, like, oh, this is where the Declaration

1118
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 3: of Independence was signed, like just on your way to

1119
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 3: lunch every day. It's so it's so crazy, Yeah it is.

1120
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 1: It's Philly and Boston are two of my favorite places

1121
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: to go. Uh, it's just, you know, the history just

1122
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: kind of leeches out onto you and I I love it.

1123
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 1: I love going there and again going back to a

1124
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 1: bit more darker things here.

1125
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 3: Uh.

1126
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 1: My heart breaks over this, you know, because I you know, again,

1127
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: going back, I'd love you know, I'd love to take

1128
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: my grandson, and I don't know that I could do

1129
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: it anymore. I did with my son and ran up

1130
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 1: the stairs, you know, at the at the museum. I

1131
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: don't know if I could do that with my grandson,

1132
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 1: but I would love to, you know, be able to

1133
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 1: take him there. But now I don't know that I'll

1134
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 1: ever do that. I really don't. And that's just my

1135
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 1: little slife supply. People say, well, you're a coward. No,

1136
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 1: I'm not far from it. I'm reasonable at some risks

1137
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 1: are just not They're just not worth it now. And

1138
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 1: I think that that's a conclusion that many people are

1139
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 1: coming to.

1140
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:25,639
Speaker 3: I'm like, let's a terrorists when I don't care, I'm

1141
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 3: not going I don't want to be in a situation

1142
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:28,679
Speaker 3: like that.

1143
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 4: People can see it as cowardly, but you also see

1144
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 4: a totally different side of the world than most people

1145
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 4: don't see.

1146
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of that has to do with

1147
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: my history. And you know, you guys, I've written about

1148
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: it and talked about my struggles with issues you know

1149
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 1: that you know arose and were exacerbated by my practice.

1150
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 1: And uh uh yeah, you're you're talking to a guy

1151
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 1: that used to tell his daughter, you know, when they

1152
01:08:55,360 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 1: were little, and this is absolutely horrible. When we go

1153
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 1: out to a meal, I haven't told the story a while,

1154
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:04,679
Speaker 1: but we go out to a meal, I would look

1155
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,640
Speaker 1: at my kids and say, now, sure your food. You

1156
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 1: realize I had a case involving a young girl that

1157
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: choked on a piece of stacker, and you know, kids

1158
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: are like, you know, sitting there, Oh my god. So

1159
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 1: you know, my frame of reference is a little bit different,

1160
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 1: you know than many people. I know that's horrible, but yeah,

1161
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 1: it's kind of kind of the world that I come from.

1162
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 1: I don't trust the environment. And listen, you guys might

1163
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 1: be from Philly, but I'm from New Orleans and New

1164
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: Orleans is it's it's rough. I mean, it's a rough place.

1165
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,840
Speaker 1: It was a great place to learn my trade. As

1166
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 1: a young investigator. I saw a lot of stuff Like Philly.

1167
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 1: It's a port city, you know, and you get all

1168
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff that come in off the ships, and

1169
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: it's a different world, you know, as opposed to other

1170
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:50,759
Speaker 1: places like Atlanta. That's just kind of you know, everybody

1171
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:52,640
Speaker 1: kind of eggs. It's a city at night kind of

1172
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 1: boring compared when compared to New Orleans. You see a

1173
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 1: lot of that. But you know, you all you I've

1174
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,519
Speaker 1: gotten old enough now to where my callus is not

1175
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 1: a stick to being aware of danger. And I'm older,

1176
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 1: so uh, you know, I can sense it, you know,

1177
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 1: to a great degree. Maybe I'm overly protective, but I

1178
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 1: want to live to see to more. I want my

1179
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 1: kids to thrive and live to see the more.

1180
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that sometimes that these these accidental

1181
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:24,320
Speaker 3: deaths or even homicides that are just these freak things

1182
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:27,640
Speaker 3: that happen. You you have to wonder that you're just

1183
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 3: gonna question if I if I would have just told

1184
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:32,799
Speaker 3: them not to do this, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

1185
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 3: And you try just so you could live with it

1186
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:37,919
Speaker 3: if anything happens.

1187
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. I always

1188
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 1: look at it like I've been I've been blessed in

1189
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 1: one way, because as dark as it is I've been

1190
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 1: afforded the opportunity to see a real bleak side and

1191
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 1: to see what can happen. Uh, I'm far from Pollyanna

1192
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: when it comes to the world, you know, just kind

1193
01:10:58,320 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: of bound said la la la la la. You know,

1194
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 1: I'm not like that, And people say, well, you're jaded.

1195
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:04,560
Speaker 1: You're damn right. I am because of the things that

1196
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: I saw. And if I feel like I'm doing people

1197
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: at disservice, if I don't, you know, pass that on.

1198
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 1: They can call me, you know, a mother hen or

1199
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 1: they can say, you know, well you're just an old

1200
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:18,680
Speaker 1: fuddy duddy or whatever. I don't care. So there you go.

1201
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,719
Speaker 2: So what are you working on right now?

1202
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,040
Speaker 3: Do you have any projects you're currently working on that

1203
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 3: you want to share with everyone?

1204
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Body Bags is going to be a television show.

1205
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 3: It's easy that when tell us when this is going down.

1206
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 1: Waiting, still waiting right now. But yeah, we've been in

1207
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: the throes of this now for oh lord, it's been

1208
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,480
Speaker 1: a while. But yeah, we're going to be heading oxygen.

1209
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 1: So I'm very, very very excited about that. And out

1210
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 1: of all of my friends, I know that you guys

1211
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: will probably appreciate this more and I hope that I

1212
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 1: can honor honor the idea as best I can. I'm

1213
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:01,720
Speaker 1: going to use it as a tea eaching platform, so

1214
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:05,640
Speaker 1: that the way it's going to be structured is that

1215
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:08,680
Speaker 1: I'm going just like I try to do the podcast,

1216
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: and I don't succeed every time, none of us do

1217
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:15,680
Speaker 1: right and so every time out. But the premise is

1218
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:21,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to take particular cases, current cases, and I'm

1219
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 1: going to use that as a way to further inform

1220
01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 1: people about forensic science, all all areas of forensic science.

1221
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:35,640
Speaker 1: And the way the way I've kind of viewed this

1222
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: is that I'm very fortunate in a sense that as

1223
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 1: horrible as the things were that I saw in the field,

1224
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 1: I'm very fortunate in the fact that I got to

1225
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:50,800
Speaker 1: seal them right. And a lot of people are really

1226
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:56,479
Speaker 1: interested in true crime, they're interested in science, and not

1227
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 1: everybody has had the opportunities I've had, and so I

1228
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 1: look at it that way that from an instructional standpoint,

1229
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to have an opportunity with experts and this

1230
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 1: sort of thing to talk about cases that are in

1231
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:13,040
Speaker 1: the news that have been adjudicated by the way where

1232
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 1: we can run through the forensics. We're not going to

1233
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:18,760
Speaker 1: get off into the weeds. There'll be some you know,

1234
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 1: talk about relationships and things like that, but that's other

1235
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 1: people are doing that. A lot of people are doing that.

1236
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 2: So I want to everyone's doing that.

1237
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 1: I want to bring it back into the science and

1238
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: try to explain it as best I can. And you know,

1239
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 1: people again, I had, you know, I didn't have any help.

1240
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 1: You know, I paid my way through school, you know,

1241
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:47,760
Speaker 1: grinding it out just like you did. And you know,

1242
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,679
Speaker 1: but I've got a master's screen forensic science, and everybody

1243
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 1: gets that opportunity. And now I've been teaching for twenty years,

1244
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 1: so I've practiced for twenty years now. I've been teaching.

1245
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:02,640
Speaker 1: Actually it's my twenty first year of teaching in Higher ed.

1246
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 1: And I'm very fortunate and not everybody, you know, I

1247
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 1: have all these people saying I wish I could come

1248
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:10,799
Speaker 1: and take your class. You know, well, come to Jacksonville,

1249
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 1: Alabama and you can take my class. You know. It's

1250
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:17,599
Speaker 1: just I don't do anything really online because it's forensic science.

1251
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: You need to physically be in classroom, right and so

1252
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to open up that door, you know,

1253
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 1: to people try to explain some of the finer points

1254
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:29,320
Speaker 1: of things, you know, as much as you can on

1255
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 1: a television show. But I'm very excited for the opportunity.

1256
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 1: And I'll keep you guys, I'll tell you what I'll

1257
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 1: tell you. I'll make you this promise. When I get

1258
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:39,679
Speaker 1: a firm date, I will let you, guys know, and

1259
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 1: we'll talk about it and we can talk about what

1260
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 1: it's like being involved in a true crime program. And yeah,

1261
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:48,920
Speaker 1: I think that'd be interesting because a lot of people

1262
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 1: don't get that insight. You know. I've done a lot

1263
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 1: of documentaries, primarily working with Katie Studios. You get a

1264
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 1: chance to check them out. I think three of their

1265
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: podcasts right now are in the top in cells Pike

1266
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:07,400
Speaker 1: and Masker now in cells number one, O one and

1267
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 1: uh oh True Crime Tonight. Uh True Crime Tonight, which

1268
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:16,839
Speaker 1: I'm on every Sunday night. We do uh uh Science Sundays.

1269
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:18,600
Speaker 1: It's what it's called up here once a week on

1270
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:22,840
Speaker 1: that show. And that's it's interesting because it's broadcast live

1271
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: on iHeart Radio and then it's pulled over the next

1272
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:31,280
Speaker 1: day for you know, for a podcast, that's been a

1273
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:33,040
Speaker 1: lot of Yeah, that's been a lot of fun to

1274
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 1: do from an instructional standpoint, and we generally have themes

1275
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:42,480
Speaker 1: going into the revolver around current cases. So Katie Studios

1276
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 1: I've been in, I did uh and I urge anybody.

1277
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:52,480
Speaker 1: First off, everything esthetically, anything that they film is beautiful

1278
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: to view. Uh. They've had some really great directors. I've

1279
01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 1: been involved in a docu series call Murdered and Missing

1280
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 1: in Montana. It's about the Native American girls that you know,

1281
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: cases weren't solved, they were just found dead and there's

1282
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:09,599
Speaker 1: a lot of this goes on, a lot of human trafficking,

1283
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Then I did the Piked and Masker,

1284
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 1: which is cases that are near and dear to my heart.

1285
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,559
Speaker 1: I was deeply involved in that eight you know, eight

1286
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: homicides in one night at three separate locations.

1287
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:25,759
Speaker 3: Uh.

1288
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: And then recently I did the Idaho uh the Iaho

1289
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:34,560
Speaker 1: case with them cases again with them with Katie Studios,

1290
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: and it's just been very fortunate to be aligned with them.

1291
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 1: They're they're dear friends and have been willing to take

1292
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:43,679
Speaker 1: a chance on me. I'm very grateful.

1293
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,240
Speaker 3: That's so, I'm so happy for you, Like I've been

1294
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:49,760
Speaker 3: waiting for this. I feel like you said, I feel

1295
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:52,680
Speaker 3: like you did a post a while ago that was like, oh,

1296
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 3: good things coming and then yeah, but I didn't want

1297
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 3: to ask in.

1298
01:16:56,520 --> 01:17:00,599
Speaker 1: Case, no, my tomeline, my tomline and anything having to

1299
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 1: do in media and entertainment, those two timelines are completely different.

1300
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 1: And you know it's I'm an old soldier. I was

1301
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:11,679
Speaker 1: in the Army, so you learned early on that uh

1302
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 1: you got to hurry up and wait. And I knew that. Uh,

1303
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:21,080
Speaker 1: but the Army has nothing on Hollywood. So yeah, they

1304
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:24,599
Speaker 1: have their own timetable. It's amazing how many vacations those

1305
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 1: people take. That's you know, well we're going on summer break,

1306
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 1: we're going on Christmas break. You know, we've got Thanksgiving

1307
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:34,679
Speaker 1: and you know they'll have some other holiday that they're

1308
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: going to. We're not looking at anything right now. Production

1309
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:40,920
Speaker 1: teams all all missing and so but now you know,

1310
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff's on the struggle bus right now.

1311
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:45,080
Speaker 1: You know, they're they're having to come up with content

1312
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,559
Speaker 1: because they got to compete with lovely people like y'all.

1313
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 1: And you know they're always pushing out content, you know,

1314
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:55,400
Speaker 1: and it's the you can you can feel it, you know,

1315
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 1: you can feel the competitives coming up because people are

1316
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:02,160
Speaker 1: turning to YouTube and people are turning these other platforms

1317
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,120
Speaker 1: to get their podcast and all these different things, you know,

1318
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,120
Speaker 1: so they they have to be able to come up

1319
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 1: with and bring, you know, bring the goods, you know.

1320
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:12,840
Speaker 1: So there you go. Maybe there won't be as me

1321
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:15,040
Speaker 1: holidays from now. I don't know, right.

1322
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 3: I was like, when I got hired as a PA,

1323
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 3: I got four weeks vacation, and I thought that that

1324
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 3: was I was like, yo, I got a sweet gig.

1325
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:26,160
Speaker 1: Ye oh, oh my gosh. Yeah, no kid in four weeks,

1326
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:26,879
Speaker 1: holy smokes.

1327
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're like that, oh they take four weeks

1328
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 3: every quarter, you know.

1329
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 1: But they're uh there, they get it out of you. Though.

1330
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:38,080
Speaker 1: You really need to tell people how hard you have

1331
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 1: to work the rest of the time you're drowning. Drowning

1332
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 1: in cases, spend a lot of time at the scope

1333
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 1: and not a not an easy gig at all. Four weeks.

1334
01:18:47,439 --> 01:18:49,599
Speaker 1: You need that amount of time just to recover, get

1335
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:50,519
Speaker 1: your brain resess.

1336
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

1337
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,519
Speaker 3: Well, thanks so much for being here today, and we

1338
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 3: definitely want to have you back when you're going to

1339
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,439
Speaker 3: announce your show and we can't wait to see it.

1340
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for your generosity. We think the world

1341
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 1: of you. Kim sins her.

1342
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:06,720
Speaker 2: Love hope, We love him. She's the best, and.

1343
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 1: She's much better than me. I wish she could sit

1344
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:10,680
Speaker 1: here and just chat with you. You guys have a

1345
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 1: great conversation.

1346
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 2: You know what's funny.

1347
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I met someone this week that was just like,

1348
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:18,320
Speaker 3: and she's in our profession. And she said, you know,

1349
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:20,640
Speaker 3: Joseph Scott Morgan And I said, yeah, I was like,

1350
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:22,679
Speaker 3: and I his wife is the best.

1351
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:26,640
Speaker 1: She is, obviously she is. She puts up with me,

1352
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:30,360
Speaker 1: so she took a chance on me. But yeah, she's

1353
01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 1: an angel, she really is, and a lover to death.

1354
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 1: We've We're in our twenty seventh year together.

1355
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:38,400
Speaker 2: Now, and I love your relationship. It's so cute.

1356
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 1: It just keeps getting better and better. Every day. I'll

1357
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:43,720
Speaker 1: wake up and I'm surprised she's still with me, so

1358
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,599
Speaker 1: oh stop. She has to manage my life for me, though,

1359
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:48,320
Speaker 1: and she's really good, and I'm glad she had to

1360
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 1: not have to. I'm glad she's retired now because now

1361
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:54,560
Speaker 1: she's got more work just keeping me and doesn't have

1362
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 1: to worry a bunch of kids in the morning. She

1363
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:59,320
Speaker 1: got to worry about one big kid trying to keep

1364
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:00,479
Speaker 1: my calendar right for me.

1365
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:04,559
Speaker 4: She retired me a wonderful book at Crime Con called Chaos.

1366
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:07,160
Speaker 4: So I started that last week and it is that fascinating,

1367
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:08,440
Speaker 4: incredible recommendation.

1368
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, please do and if you get a chance. The

1369
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:16,720
Speaker 1: author can't River's name right now escapes me. Uh uh,

1370
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,480
Speaker 1: go go watch the interview with she.

1371
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 3: She told you to read that book in reference to me.

1372
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 3: No oh, I thought it was like, let's we have people.

1373
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:31,759
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no, it's nothing like that. Please

1374
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:35,679
Speaker 1: but the author of the book. Go check out Rogan's

1375
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,439
Speaker 1: interview with him. It goes on to a four hour

1376
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 1: long interview and it is absolutely mind blowing. Some of

1377
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:48,000
Speaker 1: the connectivity with things, uh everything from Charles Manson to

1378
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Haswell, Lee Harvey Oswell uh uh and and

1379
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 1: countless others. Uh the experiments you know, done with lesurgic

1380
01:20:57,160 --> 01:20:59,280
Speaker 1: acid by our government and those sorts of things.

1381
01:20:59,760 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 4: Check.

1382
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, do yourself favorite. The book is fantastic. And I

1383
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:06,759
Speaker 1: don't read a lot. My oys went great. She read

1384
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 1: it to me, I said there, so yeah, yeah, we

1385
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 1: uh and we talk we chat over coffee about it.

1386
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was I love that fantastic.

1387
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, Joseph, have a good day. We love

1388
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:20,519
Speaker 3: you and we'll see it.

1389
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 4: It's a pleasure.

1390
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, Oh, thank y'all so much.

1391
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to Mother Nos Death. As a reminder,

1392
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:35,160
Speaker 3: my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a

1393
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:39,519
Speaker 3: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

1394
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 3: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

1395
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 3: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

1396
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:51,799
Speaker 3: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

1397
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,360
Speaker 3: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

1398
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:59,280
Speaker 3: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

1399
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:03,799
Speaker 3: healthier day decisions regarding their life and well being. Always

1400
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 3: remember that science is changing every day and the opinions

1401
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:09,720
Speaker 3: expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge of

1402
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 3: those subjects at the time of publication. If you are

1403
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:17,719
Speaker 3: having a medical problem, have a medical question, or having

1404
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:21,800
Speaker 3: a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an

1405
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 3: urgent care center, emergency room or hospital. Please rate, review,

1406
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:31,520
Speaker 3: and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

1407
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 3: or anywhere you get podcasts.

1408
01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:41,520
Speaker 2: Thanks