1 00:00:15,450 --> 00:00:15,890 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:21,420 Speaker 2: Wow. 3 00:00:22,020 --> 00:00:25,300 Speaker 1: This is an exciting moment because I am joined by 4 00:00:25,340 --> 00:00:26,020 Speaker 1: Roman Mars. 5 00:00:27,220 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 3: Roman, exciting for me too. 6 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: Roman, it's great to have you. We are going to 7 00:00:32,430 --> 00:00:35,330 Speaker 1: talk about your series, A History of the United States 8 00:00:35,490 --> 00:00:38,890 Speaker 1: in 100 Objects. But before we do, there's something I 9 00:00:38,950 --> 00:00:41,930 Speaker 1: have to say, which is that if you're listening to 10 00:00:41,970 --> 00:00:45,790 Speaker 1: this you're listening to cautionary tales you may well be 11 00:00:45,820 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: listening to cautionary tales because of roman mars it's possible 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: it is possible because roman is of course among other 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: things the host of the wonderful podcast 99 invisible and 14 00:01:00,980 --> 00:01:04,860 Speaker 1: one of the very first episodes of cautionary tales was 15 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: released by roman by on the 99% Invisible feed. And 16 00:01:09,810 --> 00:01:12,250 Speaker 1: that is, I think, the only reason why anybody has 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,890 Speaker 1: ever heard of Cautionary Tales. It's all thanks to you, Roman. 18 00:01:16,210 --> 00:01:18,730 Speaker 3: It's very generous of you to say that. When I 19 00:01:18,930 --> 00:01:21,270 Speaker 3: hear a new podcast that sort of speaks to my 20 00:01:21,310 --> 00:01:25,130 Speaker 3: sensibilities and is made so well, I love just shouting 21 00:01:25,150 --> 00:01:27,450 Speaker 3: it from the rooftop. So it was my pleasure to 22 00:01:27,590 --> 00:01:28,190 Speaker 3: promote the show. 23 00:01:28,510 --> 00:01:32,290 Speaker 1: We're going to sort of slightly, in a tiny way, 24 00:01:32,350 --> 00:01:35,230 Speaker 1: try to repay the favor because we're going to talk 25 00:01:35,270 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: about Roman's new podcast, which is a joint venture with 26 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:43,580 Speaker 1: the BBC and 99% Invisible, and it is called A 27 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: History of the United States in 100 Objects. Roman, give 28 00:01:47,180 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: me the elevator pitch. What's it all about? 29 00:01:49,890 --> 00:01:52,630 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it really started from an original BBC 30 00:01:52,670 --> 00:01:55,450 Speaker 3: series called A History of the World in 100 Objects, 31 00:01:55,530 --> 00:01:59,170 Speaker 3: which Neil MacGregor, the curator of the British Museum at 32 00:01:59,190 --> 00:02:01,610 Speaker 3: the time, you know, walked around his museum, picked out 33 00:02:01,610 --> 00:02:04,130 Speaker 3: 100 things with his curators, and decided to tell the 34 00:02:04,150 --> 00:02:06,510 Speaker 3: history of the world through these objects in the British Museum. 35 00:02:07,260 --> 00:02:09,580 Speaker 3: And they were looking to do an update of that 36 00:02:09,780 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: for the semi-quincentennial of the United States, the 250th anniversary 37 00:02:13,780 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 3: of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. And they 38 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,020 Speaker 3: came to me because to their great credit, the BBC 39 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,050 Speaker 3: was like, we don't know if we are the greatest 40 00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:25,110 Speaker 3: authority on what makes the United States the United States. 41 00:02:25,690 --> 00:02:28,630 Speaker 3: And so... We chatted a lot. We came up with 42 00:02:28,670 --> 00:02:30,690 Speaker 3: a sort of approach and it was trying to use 43 00:02:30,730 --> 00:02:33,050 Speaker 3: these objects to tell histories. But instead of things that 44 00:02:33,150 --> 00:02:35,630 Speaker 3: maybe be put inside of museums, they're kind of the 45 00:02:35,650 --> 00:02:40,770 Speaker 3: more forgotten and, you know, disregarded and overlooked and misunderstood objects. 46 00:02:41,290 --> 00:02:43,530 Speaker 1: This is Cautionary Tales. So we're going for the Venn 47 00:02:43,570 --> 00:02:46,710 Speaker 1: diagram between Cautionary Tales and History of the United States 48 00:02:46,850 --> 00:02:50,570 Speaker 1: in 100 Objects. We've challenged you to pick out three 49 00:02:50,630 --> 00:02:55,830 Speaker 1: objects that, one way or another... contain cautionary tales but 50 00:02:56,130 --> 00:02:59,090 Speaker 1: before we hear about the first one we should play 51 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:27,220 Speaker 1: the cautionary tales music I'm joined by Roman Mars, radio 52 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: and podcast legend and the host of a new BBC 53 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,060 Speaker 1: and 99% Invisible joint venture, A History of the United 54 00:03:36,140 --> 00:03:40,860 Speaker 1: States in 100 Objects. So Roman, the very first object 55 00:03:41,340 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: in the series is a kind of cautionary tale in 56 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: its own right. So tell us about the Century Safe. 57 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 3: The Century Safe was the brainchild of a magazine publisher 58 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:53,770 Speaker 3: named Anna Dean. She came up with this idea at 59 00:03:53,850 --> 00:03:57,750 Speaker 3: the centennial celebration in the United States. So in 1876, 60 00:03:57,750 --> 00:04:01,550 Speaker 3: she had this idea of presenting this gigantic safe at 61 00:04:01,650 --> 00:04:05,390 Speaker 3: the centennial celebration, kind of a World's Fair celebration, and 62 00:04:05,450 --> 00:04:07,850 Speaker 3: that people would put things in it that were important 63 00:04:07,870 --> 00:04:11,410 Speaker 3: to them that would be opened in 100 years at 64 00:04:11,450 --> 00:04:14,130 Speaker 3: the bicentennial by the President of the United States. So 65 00:04:14,490 --> 00:04:16,650 Speaker 3: etched on the safe, this thing is going to sit 66 00:04:16,670 --> 00:04:19,770 Speaker 3: for 100 years and then be opened by no less 67 00:04:19,790 --> 00:04:22,350 Speaker 3: than the president of the United States 100 years from now. 68 00:04:22,530 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: In 1976. In 1976. This is kind of like anniversary 69 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: inception now because we're now celebrating the 50th anniversary of 70 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: the 100th anniversary of the founding of the United States. 71 00:04:35,060 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: That's right. Okay, great. 72 00:04:36,340 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 4: Go on. 73 00:04:36,740 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: That's right. 74 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 3: And so she presented this safe. It traveled around. People 75 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,020 Speaker 3: put stuff in it. You could pay a little bit 76 00:04:43,060 --> 00:04:45,110 Speaker 3: of money to sign your name and put it in it. 77 00:04:45,740 --> 00:04:48,740 Speaker 3: And It was this idea of creating a time capsule 78 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 3: to speak to the future. 79 00:04:50,420 --> 00:04:52,500 Speaker 1: I guess the thing is, you can say the president 80 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,300 Speaker 1: is going to open this in 1976. It doesn't mean 81 00:04:55,330 --> 00:04:58,910 Speaker 1: that the president is going to open this in 1976. 82 00:04:58,910 --> 00:04:59,490 Speaker 3: Very true. 83 00:05:00,030 --> 00:05:03,310 Speaker 1: So as the clock is ticking down to 1976, there 84 00:05:03,330 --> 00:05:05,690 Speaker 1: wasn't much going on in the US in the mid-70s, 85 00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:09,290 Speaker 1: was there? Nothing to distract us from the important business 86 00:05:09,330 --> 00:05:12,430 Speaker 1: of the century safe. Yeah. 87 00:05:12,550 --> 00:05:15,770 Speaker 3: You know, Watergate had happened. We'd just gotten out of Vietnam. 88 00:05:15,950 --> 00:05:20,970 Speaker 3: There was a real malaise. And the bicentennial was this, 89 00:05:21,830 --> 00:05:23,730 Speaker 3: people were really trying to create a rallying point to 90 00:05:23,750 --> 00:05:26,630 Speaker 3: sort of get excited about the idea of America again. 91 00:05:27,430 --> 00:05:29,950 Speaker 3: And in the process of figuring out what to do 92 00:05:29,990 --> 00:05:32,530 Speaker 3: and how to celebrate, you know, somebody went back and 93 00:05:32,790 --> 00:05:36,210 Speaker 3: looked at the centennial celebration, the 1876 celebration, and what 94 00:05:36,230 --> 00:05:38,590 Speaker 3: did they do? And they sort of rediscovered the idea 95 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:41,550 Speaker 3: of the safe. They got sort of some energy around it. 96 00:05:42,430 --> 00:05:45,370 Speaker 3: And at some point they realized that they did not 97 00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:47,470 Speaker 3: have the key to the safe. No one knew where 98 00:05:47,490 --> 00:05:48,470 Speaker 3: the key to the safe was. 99 00:05:48,530 --> 00:05:50,570 Speaker 1: At least they knew where the safe was. That's something. 100 00:05:50,670 --> 00:05:52,470 Speaker 3: I mean, the safe was big enough. It's like if 101 00:05:52,490 --> 00:05:55,970 Speaker 3: you've seen a movie in which robbers have stopped a train. 102 00:05:55,990 --> 00:05:58,510 Speaker 1: I'm imagining this is the kind of safe that falls 103 00:05:58,710 --> 00:05:59,930 Speaker 1: onto Wile E. Coyote. 104 00:06:00,330 --> 00:06:03,170 Speaker 3: Exactly. That's exactly right. It is a safe that would 105 00:06:03,190 --> 00:06:05,470 Speaker 3: flatten Wile E. Coyote. And they didn't have the key 106 00:06:05,530 --> 00:06:08,890 Speaker 3: to it. There was a newspaper article. Some descendant of 107 00:06:08,950 --> 00:06:11,070 Speaker 3: Anadim realized that he had the key. 108 00:06:11,470 --> 00:06:11,770 Speaker 1: It's sort of. 109 00:06:12,430 --> 00:06:17,890 Speaker 3: gathered some interest and some presidential aide decided that President 110 00:06:17,930 --> 00:06:20,730 Speaker 3: Ford should take some time out of his schedule to 111 00:06:20,770 --> 00:06:23,090 Speaker 3: do this kind of silly thing. But I think they 112 00:06:23,110 --> 00:06:24,810 Speaker 3: did it because it was silly, because it was fun, 113 00:06:24,870 --> 00:06:28,460 Speaker 3: because it was a nice celebratory, non-controversial thing to do. 114 00:06:28,610 --> 00:06:30,590 Speaker 3: And we have, because it's a presidential speech, we actually 115 00:06:30,610 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 3: have the audio. You found the audio of President Ford giving, 116 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 3: I think, quite a nice little speech before they opened 117 00:06:39,940 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 3: the safe. 118 00:06:40,220 --> 00:06:40,580 Speaker 1: Let's listen. 119 00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:46,490 Speaker 4: Our real national treasure does not have to be kept 120 00:06:46,550 --> 00:06:49,670 Speaker 4: under lock and key in a safe or in a vault. 121 00:06:50,930 --> 00:06:54,770 Speaker 4: America's wealth is not in material objects, but in our 122 00:06:54,810 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 4: great heritage, our freedoms, and our belief in ourselves. As 123 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 4: we look inside this safe, let us look inside ourselves. 124 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 4: Let us look into our hearts and into our hopes. 125 00:07:12,230 --> 00:07:18,490 Speaker 4: to unleash the God-given treasures stored within. Thank you very much. 126 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,060 Speaker 3: I think it's a beautiful sentiment. It's such a cogent, thoughtful, 127 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,940 Speaker 3: empathic sentiment. It's stuff that you don't really hear from 128 00:07:31,980 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 3: politicians as much. And Ford was not the most notable 129 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,780 Speaker 3: of presidents in our history, but to hear someone just 130 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,740 Speaker 3: speak so just Lovely and eloquently. It's just nice to hear. 131 00:07:41,980 --> 00:07:45,180 Speaker 1: Also sensible because he's not leaving too many hostages to fortune. 132 00:07:45,220 --> 00:07:48,020 Speaker 1: He's saying, look, what's really in the safe is our 133 00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: hopes and dreams. That's right. Whatever's actually in the safe. 134 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: That's what's really there, which may be wise because we 135 00:07:56,020 --> 00:07:57,460 Speaker 1: should play the moment of the big reveal. 136 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: We should. 137 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:08,450 Speaker 4: Here is a... That's a Tiffany inkstand, I understand. It 138 00:08:08,470 --> 00:08:10,850 Speaker 4: looks a little different than the ones we have, Kyle. 139 00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:17,260 Speaker 4: This is a photograph of an early statesman. I don't 140 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 4: see his name. Lindy, I have a picture of a chairperson. 141 00:08:25,580 --> 00:08:29,470 Speaker 4: I don't have any indication of her name, but she 142 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:30,300 Speaker 4: looks mighty pretty. 143 00:08:32,350 --> 00:08:37,110 Speaker 3: The contents are so boring, so lackluster. that he really 144 00:08:37,170 --> 00:08:40,370 Speaker 3: can't come up with very much. It's a lot of photographs, 145 00:08:41,370 --> 00:08:44,830 Speaker 3: photographs of the Congress that was seated at the time. 146 00:08:44,850 --> 00:08:50,450 Speaker 3: There's a temperance pamphlet in there. There's an inkwell by 147 00:08:51,110 --> 00:08:54,130 Speaker 3: Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. And then there's a bunch of these 148 00:08:54,180 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 3: signatures that don't have a lot of meaning to people 149 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,380 Speaker 3: because they paid a little bit of money to put 150 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,740 Speaker 3: their signature in. We interviewed Jill Lepore for this piece, 151 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 3: who's one of my favorite historians. And she's just a delight, 152 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 3: you know. And she's very critical. She's like, there's nothing 153 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:12,420 Speaker 3: of use in this thing. And, you know, she notices 154 00:09:12,460 --> 00:09:14,620 Speaker 3: when things are useful inside of archives. That's what her 155 00:09:14,660 --> 00:09:15,300 Speaker 3: job is. 156 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,100 Speaker 1: She speaks her mind as well. I mean, did Jill 157 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,380 Speaker 1: have any opinion about what this tells us about what 158 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: was valued? 159 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:28,620 Speaker 3: What she points to is this idea that was new 160 00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:31,550 Speaker 3: and novel at the time. was the idea of preservation 161 00:09:31,630 --> 00:09:34,020 Speaker 3: at all. Like the idea that you could have a 162 00:09:34,060 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: photograph of someone was just in and of itself was 163 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 3: just sort of delightful. And the fact that this whole 164 00:09:38,620 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 3: exercise of taking a bunch of stuff and sealing it 165 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: into a vault that would keep for a hundred years 166 00:09:44,780 --> 00:09:48,310 Speaker 3: was not, you know, like kind of inside the metabolism 167 00:09:48,350 --> 00:09:51,250 Speaker 3: of people at the time. Life was fleeting, things rotted 168 00:09:51,310 --> 00:09:53,610 Speaker 3: and went away. They just were so amazed that a 169 00:09:53,650 --> 00:09:55,950 Speaker 3: photograph could exist at all. Like you could, you know, 170 00:09:56,230 --> 00:09:58,710 Speaker 3: at this point, you know, bodies were, you know, barely 171 00:09:58,810 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 3: able to be preserved. It was brand new that you 172 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: could get a body preserved, you know, that that, that 173 00:10:03,430 --> 00:10:05,030 Speaker 3: died in the war and then was, that could be 174 00:10:05,070 --> 00:10:07,490 Speaker 3: buried back home. All these things were brand new. And 175 00:10:07,510 --> 00:10:11,890 Speaker 3: so the idea of, of just extending time forward and like, 176 00:10:11,910 --> 00:10:13,870 Speaker 3: and sort of putting that in your brain that you 177 00:10:13,970 --> 00:10:16,300 Speaker 3: could extend time forward and think about a hundred years 178 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: in the future was itself kind of a new concept. 179 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 3: And so in and of itself, that's what's sort of, 180 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,030 Speaker 3: sort of rousing about the, the project. But they didn't 181 00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:27,370 Speaker 3: have like a secondary thought of what would truly be 182 00:10:27,410 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 3: interesting and unique for the future. 183 00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:32,740 Speaker 1: People weren't really used to thinking about the future. That's right. 184 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,780 Speaker 1: Which is weird because we are endlessly thinking about the future, 185 00:10:35,860 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: forecasting scenarios, P-Doom these days, whatever. We're always thinking about 186 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: the future. Does that suggest we would do a much 187 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,990 Speaker 1: better job of filling a time capsule than they did 188 00:10:46,010 --> 00:10:46,350 Speaker 1: back then? 189 00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 3: I am not sure. Hmm. people conflate this idea of 190 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 3: what is important and what is interesting a lot. And 191 00:10:56,420 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: so the idea of important things means that it means 192 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 3: a lot to a lot of us. Therefore, there's a 193 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: lot of examples of this sort of item or object 194 00:11:02,940 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 3: or thought that's already there, and therefore it should be 195 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,060 Speaker 3: put in. Whereas what is probably more interesting and more 196 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:11,900 Speaker 3: interesting to future historians is something that is just a 197 00:11:12,020 --> 00:11:14,500 Speaker 3: personal writing of a thing that happened to you once. 198 00:11:15,180 --> 00:11:16,970 Speaker 3: And that is not a type of thing that makes 199 00:11:17,010 --> 00:11:19,630 Speaker 3: it into books. So I don't think we'd necessarily be better. 200 00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:21,830 Speaker 3: I think we'd be somewhat more equipped. But I think 201 00:11:21,850 --> 00:11:23,830 Speaker 3: we'd fall for the same problem, which is we'd probably 202 00:11:23,850 --> 00:11:28,630 Speaker 3: discount our personal ideas and personal lives in favor of 203 00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:29,250 Speaker 3: big history. 204 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: Like a bunch of email archives might be incredibly useful, 205 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:38,900 Speaker 1: even though it's all trivia. Actually, future historians being able 206 00:11:38,940 --> 00:11:41,820 Speaker 1: to go through a really big email archive might be 207 00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating, even though for us, they're totally disposable. 208 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,180 Speaker 3: Exactly. I think that's exactly the point. I think a 209 00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 3: corpus of email would be way more than most of 210 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 3: the published books in a thousand years' time. Way more important. 211 00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: So we're all about lessons here on Cautionary Tales. You 212 00:11:59,180 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: chose The Century Safe. This is the thing. You decided 213 00:12:03,140 --> 00:12:05,660 Speaker 1: you were going to kick off your entire History of 214 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:08,740 Speaker 1: the United States in 100 Objects series with The Century Safe. 215 00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:11,090 Speaker 1: What lesson should we draw? What were you trying to say? 216 00:12:12,070 --> 00:12:14,090 Speaker 3: We're going to do a story that would just explain 217 00:12:14,110 --> 00:12:16,230 Speaker 3: what the series was about and then have it not 218 00:12:16,270 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 3: be one of the objects? Or could we find an 219 00:12:18,270 --> 00:12:21,260 Speaker 3: object that represented what we were trying to do? And 220 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:24,300 Speaker 3: the Sentry Safe just revealed itself as this thing, which is, 221 00:12:25,140 --> 00:12:27,740 Speaker 3: it both is an object that tells us about what 222 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:29,940 Speaker 3: we were thinking about at a certain time in our 223 00:12:29,980 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 3: history as a country. We were really thinking about the 224 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,300 Speaker 3: future for the first time and realizing that this thing 225 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 3: might stick. I mean, you have to realize that when 226 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 3: the Sentry Safe was built and put away, it was 227 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 3: only less than a dozen years away from the Civil War, 228 00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:46,410 Speaker 3: which was the first gigantic test of of the United States, 229 00:12:46,850 --> 00:12:48,650 Speaker 3: there were probably a fair amount of people that just thought, 230 00:12:49,210 --> 00:12:51,790 Speaker 3: maybe there isn't a president of the United States to 231 00:12:51,930 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 3: open this thing in 1976. But they were feeling somewhat 232 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,460 Speaker 3: optimistic that it could. And so in and of itself 233 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,100 Speaker 3: as an object, it has a fun story to it 234 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,260 Speaker 3: and makes you think about the idea of preservation and 235 00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:05,930 Speaker 3: telling the history of a country through objects. The other 236 00:13:05,950 --> 00:13:08,470 Speaker 3: thing is the cautionary tale of what you put inside 237 00:13:08,490 --> 00:13:10,590 Speaker 3: of it and realize that this is sort of a 238 00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:13,450 Speaker 3: kind of foolhardy, thing to do is to sort of 239 00:13:13,510 --> 00:13:16,870 Speaker 3: pick things, a hundred things to represent an entire country. 240 00:13:17,410 --> 00:13:20,130 Speaker 3: And that if we fall on our face as we 241 00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:23,530 Speaker 3: do it, give us some grace because we're not the 242 00:13:23,570 --> 00:13:25,450 Speaker 3: first ones to do this. 243 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:30,330 Speaker 1: Well, let's move on to another object and another cautionary tale. 244 00:13:31,230 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: This one combines national hysteria, good intentions, and breakfast. And 245 00:13:38,420 --> 00:13:50,340 Speaker 1: we're going to hear it after the break. We're back. 246 00:13:50,620 --> 00:13:54,140 Speaker 1: I'm Tim Harford, and I'm talking to Roman Mars about 247 00:13:54,380 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: his new series, A History of the United States in 248 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:02,020 Speaker 1: 100 Objects. So Roman, what is the next item you'd 249 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,620 Speaker 1: like to share with Caution Tales listeners? 250 00:14:04,860 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: We're going to learn about the missing children milk cartons. 251 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: Okay, that sounds considerably more serious than the century safe. 252 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,500 Speaker 3: It is, yeah. So there was this campaign in the 1980s. 253 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:16,780 Speaker 3: There was. 254 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 3: Two just horrific kidnappings of young boys, one named Johnny 255 00:14:23,220 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 3: Gosch and one named Eugene Martin. And it prompted a 256 00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:34,110 Speaker 3: local dairy to put the picture of the boys on 257 00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:39,350 Speaker 3: a milk carton. And it started this campaign of putting 258 00:14:39,410 --> 00:14:42,790 Speaker 3: missing children's faces on milk cartons because people see it. 259 00:14:42,830 --> 00:14:45,700 Speaker 3: It sits on the breakfast table. photographs can be cycled 260 00:14:45,780 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 3: out because people go through a thing of milk in 261 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: a couple of days and you can put new ones on. 262 00:14:49,980 --> 00:14:54,170 Speaker 3: And it was this whole campaign to sort of help 263 00:14:54,430 --> 00:14:57,230 Speaker 3: find children who were missing. That was the idea of it. 264 00:14:57,290 --> 00:14:57,610 Speaker 4: Yeah. 265 00:14:58,190 --> 00:15:03,750 Speaker 1: The parents of Johnny, who went missing, he was on 266 00:15:03,790 --> 00:15:06,790 Speaker 1: his paper round. I mean, my son does a paper round. 267 00:15:06,850 --> 00:15:10,180 Speaker 1: It's just horrendous. The neighbors call and their paper hasn't 268 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: been delivered and his father goes out and his little 269 00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: kind of red cart's there with the newspapers and he's 270 00:15:14,660 --> 00:15:15,180 Speaker 1: just gone. 271 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:16,140 Speaker 4: Yeah. 272 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,310 Speaker 1: So his parents are trying to change the law. 273 00:15:19,330 --> 00:15:23,870 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So Johnny Gosch's parents, they realized that 274 00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:29,670 Speaker 3: the laws for missing children were not designed for children. 275 00:15:29,950 --> 00:15:33,170 Speaker 3: So you couldn't report it until three days missing was 276 00:15:33,190 --> 00:15:35,630 Speaker 3: what was required. And there were different things that were 277 00:15:35,770 --> 00:15:38,940 Speaker 3: all built around missing adults and not missing children. And 278 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:40,980 Speaker 3: so they did a lot of good work to change 279 00:15:41,020 --> 00:15:43,340 Speaker 3: those laws so that missing children be treated differently with 280 00:15:43,420 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: certain urgency so that these things could potentially be stopped 281 00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: if something horrible were to happen and somebody could be 282 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,890 Speaker 3: caught or some children could be found. In addition, there 283 00:15:53,930 --> 00:15:58,550 Speaker 3: was this local dairy just was in the community of 284 00:15:58,630 --> 00:16:02,250 Speaker 3: Eugene Martin, offered it as a solution. It was a 285 00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:05,060 Speaker 3: pretty genius solution to an idea of just like, have 286 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 3: you seen this boy? And then To get people like 287 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,820 Speaker 3: both be thinking about the specific children, but also be 288 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 3: thinking about the idea of your children being safe. You know, 289 00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:17,340 Speaker 3: the world was really changing and people could feel it 290 00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: and they wanted to build awareness of missing children. 291 00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's hear from Barbara Huggett, one of the artists 292 00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: who worked on the campaign. 293 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,580 Speaker 2: Our founder, apparently he'd seen Johnny Gosch and Eugene Martin 294 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: on the Anderson Erickson dairy milk cartons. but he felt 295 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,580 Speaker 2: that the program should be nationwide. Boy, I wish I 296 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,420 Speaker 2: knew how many cartons had circulated. I imagine it's way 297 00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: into the billions. When you have 700, 750 dairies printing 298 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: day in and day out for years, we used cases 299 00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:55,300 Speaker 2: that were believed to be what they termed in those 300 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,450 Speaker 2: days dangerous stranger abductions. 301 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:04,270 Speaker 1: Dangerous stranger abductions. Is there a a risk in that phrase, Roman? 302 00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: There is, because if you put a lot of weight 303 00:17:09,060 --> 00:17:12,620 Speaker 3: on the idea of a stranger objection, what you're missing 304 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 3: out is the 10, 20, maybe hundredfold real danger to children, 305 00:17:18,850 --> 00:17:21,170 Speaker 3: which is usually harmed due to people that they know 306 00:17:21,410 --> 00:17:25,670 Speaker 3: and people that are related to them. And I am 307 00:17:25,850 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 3: very willing to go overboard when it comes to taking 308 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:34,460 Speaker 3: care of kids in whatever's like small, rare situations that 309 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 3: they might be in to cause them harm. You know, 310 00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:39,980 Speaker 3: I would move the earth if something happened to one 311 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,970 Speaker 3: of my children. But the danger of that or the 312 00:17:43,010 --> 00:17:47,330 Speaker 3: cautionary tale of that is, do you then not take 313 00:17:47,390 --> 00:17:53,290 Speaker 3: care of systemic things that relate to poverty and health 314 00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 3: and the safety of children inside of their domestic environment? 315 00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:57,220 Speaker 1: Yeah. 316 00:17:57,670 --> 00:18:00,110 Speaker 3: Because you are so afraid of this thing that it's 317 00:18:00,150 --> 00:18:02,870 Speaker 3: a very, very rare chance of actually happening to a child. 318 00:18:03,510 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: There's a cautionary tale we told a couple of years 319 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: ago at Halloween. All of the concern about poisoned candy. 320 00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:17,100 Speaker 1: First of all, it's not a thing. It seems to 321 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:19,980 Speaker 1: have never happened that a child has been poisoned by 322 00:18:20,020 --> 00:18:23,820 Speaker 1: a stranger putting cyanide in their candy or whatever. And 323 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: in fact, children are at much more risk on Halloween 324 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: of just being run over by a car because it's 325 00:18:28,580 --> 00:18:30,630 Speaker 1: dark and they're out on the streets. You know, that's 326 00:18:30,670 --> 00:18:32,370 Speaker 1: the thing you need to be careful of and maybe 327 00:18:32,410 --> 00:18:35,610 Speaker 1: make sure that the Halloween costume has some flashing lights 328 00:18:35,670 --> 00:18:39,930 Speaker 1: on it. But then, I mean, the really horrendous irony 329 00:18:40,030 --> 00:18:43,740 Speaker 1: was there was a boy who was murdered by poison 330 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: candy and he was killed by his own father for 331 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,940 Speaker 1: the life insurance money, which is completely incomprehensible to me. 332 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: But his father thought... he'd get away with it because, 333 00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:56,100 Speaker 1: you know, kids are being poisoned by strangers all the 334 00:18:56,140 --> 00:18:58,180 Speaker 1: time at Halloween. So no one's going to, no one's 335 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,460 Speaker 1: going to trace it back to me. I mean, it's just, 336 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: we can envisage certain threats that maybe are not the 337 00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: real threats that we should be worried about. 338 00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:09,300 Speaker 3: That's right. And so when you tell this story and 339 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,510 Speaker 3: it's a very effective story, it's a very like painful story, 340 00:19:13,090 --> 00:19:16,410 Speaker 3: you know, it should move people to act and maybe overreact. 341 00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:19,570 Speaker 3: I think that is okay. But when it ends up 342 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:23,100 Speaker 3: that you ignore, um, bigger things or when we have 343 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:27,180 Speaker 3: the power to really make children's life better in general, 344 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:28,340 Speaker 3: then it can be a problem. 345 00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:31,340 Speaker 1: Was there pushback at the time? Were people at the 346 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:33,860 Speaker 1: time saying, look, you shouldn't be doing this? This is 347 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: not helpful. 348 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,940 Speaker 3: I mean, at the time, I don't know if there 349 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,740 Speaker 3: was a ton of pushback. I think when you get 350 00:19:38,780 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: into the health and welfare of children, it really changes 351 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 3: the way that people discuss things and argue. And you'll 352 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,980 Speaker 3: notice that in today's politics, too, like very quickly. If 353 00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:51,950 Speaker 3: somebody gets into the, like, children are in danger becomes, like, 354 00:19:52,350 --> 00:19:55,590 Speaker 3: the baseline of which every argument gets reduced down to 355 00:19:55,630 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 3: this idea. Yeah. It is super effective. 356 00:19:58,100 --> 00:19:58,660 Speaker 2: Yeah. 357 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 3: Does short circuit other logical pathways of your brain. Again, 358 00:20:03,850 --> 00:20:07,350 Speaker 3: for reasons like it's. But I think that people went 359 00:20:07,370 --> 00:20:10,130 Speaker 3: through with it because it just made sense in a 360 00:20:10,150 --> 00:20:12,730 Speaker 3: lot of ways. But then, you know, after a while 361 00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:16,630 Speaker 3: when it the efficacy is is is sort of not 362 00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:19,460 Speaker 3: very clear. People don't want to be scared all the time. 363 00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:22,340 Speaker 3: And they'll begin to like not see that carton of 364 00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:24,260 Speaker 3: milk and then they'll just want it to go away. 365 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 3: And I think that's what happened here. Yeah. 366 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: I mean, did the milk carton campaign ever contribute to 367 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:31,420 Speaker 1: anybody being found? 368 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 3: One of the kids was found, but it wasn't related. 369 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,610 Speaker 3: There was a random traffic stop and it ended up 370 00:20:37,670 --> 00:20:41,010 Speaker 3: resulting in the kid being found. There was another famous 371 00:20:41,070 --> 00:20:43,910 Speaker 3: case that became like a TV movie called The Kid 372 00:20:43,950 --> 00:20:45,990 Speaker 3: on the Side of the Milk Carton. In which a 373 00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:49,530 Speaker 3: young girl who was abducted by her mother and stepfather 374 00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:53,630 Speaker 3: saw herself on a regional milk carton. And she cut 375 00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:56,150 Speaker 3: out the milk carton. She kept it. And a friend 376 00:20:56,170 --> 00:20:58,850 Speaker 3: of hers, parents of a friend of hers, found it, 377 00:20:58,910 --> 00:21:01,510 Speaker 3: realized who she was. And it all resulted in her 378 00:21:01,550 --> 00:21:03,290 Speaker 3: being returned to her father. 379 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:07,060 Speaker 1: It's an incredible story. Yeah. This neighborhood mom going, do 380 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,860 Speaker 1: you mind if I just keep this milk carton? 381 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 382 00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 383 00:21:10,890 --> 00:21:13,670 Speaker 3: Because it was in her own scrapbook, like the girl's scrapbook, 384 00:21:14,010 --> 00:21:15,090 Speaker 3: the kidnapped child scrapbook. 385 00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:17,390 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm famous. My name's on a milk carton. But 386 00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:20,190 Speaker 1: she couldn't read, right? So she had no idea really 387 00:21:20,210 --> 00:21:23,030 Speaker 1: what this meant. But yeah, this other mum in the 388 00:21:23,050 --> 00:21:23,770 Speaker 1: neighborhood did know. 389 00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that was one of them. But again, 390 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 3: it never really worked in the way that it was intended. 391 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:36,100 Speaker 1: So, Roman, viewing the milk carton as a cautionary tale, 392 00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:37,580 Speaker 1: what lesson should we draw? 393 00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:40,930 Speaker 3: This is a campaign that ran for a very short 394 00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:43,130 Speaker 3: amount of time and scared the bejesus out of a 395 00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 3: generation of people around my age. And it did not 396 00:21:48,580 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 3: result in any kids being found. And it probably rewired 397 00:21:56,420 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 3: our brains to actually not be scared of the thing 398 00:21:59,580 --> 00:22:02,730 Speaker 3: that probably we should be scared of. Again, in rare instances, 399 00:22:02,790 --> 00:22:06,090 Speaker 3: it does happen, but mostly you should be thinking about 400 00:22:06,510 --> 00:22:09,870 Speaker 3: child poverty. You should be thinking about alcoholism in a home. 401 00:22:09,970 --> 00:22:12,170 Speaker 3: You should be thinking about all these other things and 402 00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:15,050 Speaker 3: abuse when it comes to the safety of children and 403 00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:17,060 Speaker 3: not men driving around in vans. 404 00:22:17,140 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: You're listening to Cautionary Tales. I'm Tim Harford. I am 405 00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: talking to Roman Mars about his series, A History of 406 00:22:26,860 --> 00:22:31,070 Speaker 1: the United States in 100 Objects. And after the break, 407 00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:35,300 Speaker 1: we will be back with one final cautionary object. and 408 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:47,130 Speaker 1: it is something to which we are all beholden. We're back. 409 00:22:47,650 --> 00:22:50,710 Speaker 1: I'm talking to Roman Mars. And Roman, we are running 410 00:22:50,770 --> 00:22:54,950 Speaker 1: through your pick of a history of the United States 411 00:22:55,850 --> 00:23:00,110 Speaker 1: in 100 Objects, looking for the three items with the 412 00:23:00,210 --> 00:23:04,850 Speaker 1: most cautionary overtones or undertones. I don't want to imply 413 00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:07,930 Speaker 1: that the other 97 are all just happy stories that 414 00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:14,090 Speaker 1: have no consequence whatsoever. No depth, nothing. I know there 415 00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: were a few really amazing stories that we could have picked, 416 00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: but I really love this one. And before we get 417 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,580 Speaker 1: to the object, we should talk about time. Why was 418 00:23:26,860 --> 00:23:32,110 Speaker 1: time so problematic in the late 90s? 19th century united states. 419 00:23:32,690 --> 00:23:34,910 Speaker 3: Well because no one had any idea if they were 420 00:23:34,930 --> 00:23:36,850 Speaker 3: on the same time or not that's basically the problem 421 00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:41,460 Speaker 3: okay there's no way to check it and so people 422 00:23:41,490 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: could use it in different ways to exploit people so 423 00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 3: like you know if you were uh ran a factory 424 00:23:47,060 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 3: um you would say that people the workers are stealing 425 00:23:49,780 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 3: time for you and if you were a worker in 426 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,180 Speaker 3: a factory you'd say well like you know like my 427 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,580 Speaker 3: labor is being stolen. 428 00:23:54,540 --> 00:23:56,890 Speaker 1: Yeah you're supposed to be working I don't know, nine 429 00:23:56,910 --> 00:24:00,210 Speaker 1: till six and have half an hour for lunch. And, 430 00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:03,470 Speaker 1: you know, when is nine? When is six? Did you 431 00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:05,370 Speaker 1: take half an hour or did you take 45 minutes? 432 00:24:05,470 --> 00:24:08,150 Speaker 1: Or maybe he only gave you 20 minutes. That's right. 433 00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:08,850 Speaker 1: That's right. 434 00:24:08,930 --> 00:24:09,890 Speaker 3: Nobody really knew. 435 00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:11,630 Speaker 1: Okay. But people had clocks, right? 436 00:24:11,890 --> 00:24:13,210 Speaker 3: I mean, the problem is, is like you have to 437 00:24:13,450 --> 00:24:15,710 Speaker 3: trust the clocks. And then when you build in sort 438 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:18,850 Speaker 3: of the somewhat adversarial relationship of people asking for your 439 00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:22,250 Speaker 3: time and exchanging it for money, you don't trust that 440 00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:25,510 Speaker 3: those minutes are their minutes or your minutes. It's just 441 00:24:25,530 --> 00:24:25,870 Speaker 3: the way it is. 442 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: I now realize I have the perfect example of what 443 00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: you're talking about because I have an alarm clock by 444 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,620 Speaker 1: my bed. It's kind of old school and the alarm 445 00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:36,220 Speaker 1: goes off at 6.30 in the morning because, you know, 446 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: got to get my son up for his paper round. 447 00:24:39,660 --> 00:24:42,430 Speaker 1: And of course it goes off at 6.30, by which 448 00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:49,870 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously 6.25. Of course, because I have the 449 00:24:49,910 --> 00:24:52,470 Speaker 1: clock running five minutes fast. Whereas my wife is like, 450 00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:57,070 Speaker 1: what kind of monster are you that you're saying it's 630, 451 00:24:57,050 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: but it's actually 625. So that's right. You know, this 452 00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: only there's money at stake. 453 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 4: Okay. 454 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: I get it. I get it. Cause the clocks can 455 00:25:03,780 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: be changed. They can be wound forward. They can be, 456 00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: they can easily be interfered with. 457 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,580 Speaker 3: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. 458 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,710 Speaker 1: Okay. So there is a solution and it is invented 459 00:25:13,310 --> 00:25:15,990 Speaker 1: by Willard Bundy. Tell us more. 460 00:25:16,010 --> 00:25:20,550 Speaker 3: I mean, Willard Bundy was, was a clock and engineering fanatic. 461 00:25:20,590 --> 00:25:23,620 Speaker 3: Like he just loved clocks. He loved, fixing clocks and 462 00:25:23,660 --> 00:25:29,580 Speaker 3: making clocks. And he heard of this problem of people 463 00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:34,100 Speaker 3: in factories, as more factory work is happening, not knowing 464 00:25:34,140 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 3: what time it was and when they started. And so 465 00:25:36,140 --> 00:25:38,340 Speaker 3: he invented what was called the Bundy clock, which is 466 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 3: the first, what we call a time clock, a thing 467 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: that you were given a key, you kind of punched in, 468 00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: you knew when you were starting work, you could clock out, 469 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,980 Speaker 3: you knew when you ended work, and then you could 470 00:25:49,020 --> 00:25:49,900 Speaker 3: be paid accordingly. 471 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:52,150 Speaker 1: It makes Willard sound like this is a guy with 472 00:25:52,170 --> 00:25:55,780 Speaker 1: a really sharp eye for a market opportunity, but actually 473 00:25:55,820 --> 00:25:58,100 Speaker 1: he was basically, he's basically just a guy who loved clocks. 474 00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,120 Speaker 1: I mean, he also made, tell us about the wonderful clock. 475 00:26:00,180 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 3: No, the wonderful clock was this clock where he was 476 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:05,340 Speaker 3: so entranced with the mechanisms of clock. He invented a 477 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:07,340 Speaker 3: clock that could run a thousand years long. 478 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,620 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's got a mechanical diorama and there's logs and 479 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: there's frogs and there's waterfalls and it's, it's. 480 00:26:14,860 --> 00:26:16,660 Speaker 3: Like a thing of beauty. Like he, he, you know, 481 00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:19,460 Speaker 3: he really, like he really saw the beauty in engineering 482 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,020 Speaker 3: and solving problems and marking time. And loved the mechanism 483 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,740 Speaker 3: of a clock. He invented the Bundy clock as this 484 00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:29,410 Speaker 3: idea to solve this problem, but he really didn't know 485 00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:32,950 Speaker 3: how to sell it. He had this younger brother named 486 00:26:33,030 --> 00:26:37,250 Speaker 3: Harlow who was a very different character from him and 487 00:26:37,330 --> 00:26:40,530 Speaker 3: really saw the business application to the Bundy clock. 488 00:26:40,850 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: Tom Bezek of the Bundy Museum tells us that Harlow 489 00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: was an absolute jerk. But Willard has created this amazing clock, 490 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:50,860 Speaker 1: so what does Harlow do with it? 491 00:26:51,350 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 3: Arlo decides to sell it to factories, and they really 492 00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 3: are thinking of this problem from the worker point of 493 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,540 Speaker 3: view of like, you're going to want your employer to 494 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 3: have this clock because it's the way that you can 495 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:08,550 Speaker 3: be paid properly for your work. So you should convince, 496 00:27:08,610 --> 00:27:12,490 Speaker 3: you as a factory worker should convince your factory to 497 00:27:12,650 --> 00:27:15,950 Speaker 3: buy a Bundy clock so that you will not have 498 00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:19,540 Speaker 3: your time stolen from you. It did not sell this way. 499 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 3: It did not move the needle at all. And they 500 00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:25,220 Speaker 3: totally flipped the script. They decided instead to go like 501 00:27:25,420 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 3: to go to factories and factory owners and managers. And 502 00:27:28,340 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 3: they said, you know what? These workers are stealing from 503 00:27:32,060 --> 00:27:34,780 Speaker 3: you because they're slacking off and they're showing up late 504 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,860 Speaker 3: and they're leaving early. You should get this clock so 505 00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 3: that you can keep them in control and you can 506 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 3: pay them for only what they do. And that was 507 00:27:43,930 --> 00:27:46,690 Speaker 3: that's the key, because that is what made the bunny 508 00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:50,770 Speaker 3: clock be adopted everywhere. But, you know, the Bundy clock, 509 00:27:50,910 --> 00:27:53,230 Speaker 3: as ingenious as it was and as great as Willard 510 00:27:53,270 --> 00:27:56,970 Speaker 3: was at building things, it still becomes like this bottleneck 511 00:27:57,410 --> 00:27:59,350 Speaker 3: in starting your day. So all these people have to 512 00:27:59,390 --> 00:28:02,260 Speaker 3: now line up. They have to punch in somehow, whether 513 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 3: it's with a key or with eventually it's with pieces 514 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 3: of paper, pieces of tape. And so now it's not 515 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,100 Speaker 3: a matter of getting to work on time or starting 516 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:11,740 Speaker 3: work on time. You have to get to work early 517 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,910 Speaker 3: so that you can then punch in. And still, the 518 00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:18,790 Speaker 3: veracity of what the clock says, it's still a little 519 00:28:18,810 --> 00:28:21,310 Speaker 3: bit in question, and you're more ruled by it. And 520 00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 3: you can no longer negotiate with a foreman about where 521 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,740 Speaker 3: you were and what you were doing and stuff. The 522 00:28:27,780 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 3: clock becomes this oppressive, kind of heavy thing on the 523 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:31,820 Speaker 3: back of the worker. 524 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the advertisements that you describe. So one 525 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:38,630 Speaker 1: of them is, there's a bulldog biting through a timesheet 526 00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:43,050 Speaker 1: and saying... put a watchdog on your payroll, which I thought, oh, 527 00:28:43,170 --> 00:28:46,530 Speaker 1: that's kind of obnoxious. And then I saw the next advert. 528 00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:49,770 Speaker 1: There are arrows coming out of the clock pointing at, 529 00:28:50,250 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: you've got silhouettes representing all the workers and the clock 530 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: is identifying the slackers. And the ad says the Bundy 531 00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:02,460 Speaker 1: clock points out your unprofitable employees. Now you can sit 532 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: down to the efficient employees from the inefficient. And that's 533 00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: so much worse than the bulldog. That's horrendous. 534 00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:13,390 Speaker 3: That's right. That's right. It was just, yeah, it's very 535 00:29:13,450 --> 00:29:16,230 Speaker 3: clear what it's trying to do. It is very clear 536 00:29:16,250 --> 00:29:19,510 Speaker 3: that as soon as you put time on these things, 537 00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 3: like it becomes like the single data point in which 538 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 3: you judge all things. And like, we love this. When 539 00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:27,660 Speaker 3: we can reduce things down to one number, like people 540 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: just get so excited about that idea. Like they just 541 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 3: love it. And this is what they did there. And 542 00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:34,980 Speaker 3: it becomes like, All of a sudden, the value of 543 00:29:35,020 --> 00:29:37,100 Speaker 3: a person and a worker is whether or not they 544 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,430 Speaker 3: show up one or two minutes late versus what they 545 00:29:39,470 --> 00:29:41,230 Speaker 3: actually contribute inside of the workday. 546 00:29:41,410 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it becomes hugely distortionary of what the real 547 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,810 Speaker 1: judgment should be of these workers and their worth. And 548 00:29:51,610 --> 00:29:53,790 Speaker 1: at which point we should probably introduce our next character, 549 00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:57,970 Speaker 1: who is Frederick Winslow Taylor, the ultimate standing over you 550 00:29:58,010 --> 00:29:58,890 Speaker 1: with a stopwatch guy. 551 00:29:59,170 --> 00:30:02,530 Speaker 3: You know, Taylor introduced this idea of Taylorism, which is 552 00:30:02,570 --> 00:30:05,710 Speaker 3: named after him, timing everything to figure out the most 553 00:30:05,770 --> 00:30:10,310 Speaker 3: efficient way to work. He's upper-class Philadelphian. And he just 554 00:30:10,410 --> 00:30:13,370 Speaker 3: had this concept of working efficiency and that he would 555 00:30:13,470 --> 00:30:17,350 Speaker 3: time all tasks inside of a factory. And if you, 556 00:30:17,550 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 3: I don't know, you worked at a drill press or 557 00:30:19,180 --> 00:30:22,540 Speaker 3: something like that, he would start the stopwatch when you 558 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 3: were doing your drill pressing. But if you went and 559 00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 3: grabbed a tool, he'd stop it and make that as 560 00:30:27,980 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: sort of a timeout. And then he would start it 561 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 3: again when you start working again. Or if you talk 562 00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:32,890 Speaker 3: to someone or you did a thing or you adjusted 563 00:30:32,930 --> 00:30:35,270 Speaker 3: yourself or whatever it was, and he would start to 564 00:30:35,290 --> 00:30:38,190 Speaker 3: figure out the shortest time to do a task and 565 00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:42,500 Speaker 3: then began to report that to factory owners and say, 566 00:30:42,580 --> 00:30:45,930 Speaker 3: this is how efficient someone should be working if they're 567 00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:48,470 Speaker 3: truly an efficient worker in your factory. I mean, it 568 00:30:48,510 --> 00:30:52,310 Speaker 3: really reduced humans to just being machines in this horrible 569 00:30:52,350 --> 00:30:55,570 Speaker 3: way that was very seductive to factory owners, but was 570 00:30:55,810 --> 00:30:58,290 Speaker 3: very demoralizing and dispiriting to workers. 571 00:30:58,510 --> 00:31:01,060 Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't get a break, but also you're not 572 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: being treated as a human being. 573 00:31:02,540 --> 00:31:02,700 Speaker 4: No. 574 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: There's this amazing description by one boss. Do you want 575 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:06,620 Speaker 1: to read it to us? 576 00:31:06,860 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I do. 577 00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:08,300 Speaker 1: He says. 578 00:31:08,740 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 3: A man is a portable power plant. He has a 579 00:31:11,220 --> 00:31:15,300 Speaker 3: boiler down here, the stomach, which consumes food. The processes 580 00:31:15,340 --> 00:31:17,870 Speaker 3: are not similar to burning coal in the grate. He 581 00:31:17,910 --> 00:31:19,970 Speaker 3: has an engine in here, which is his heart, which 582 00:31:20,050 --> 00:31:24,190 Speaker 3: is a pump. And so he's just describing humans as 583 00:31:24,210 --> 00:31:24,790 Speaker 3: a machine. 584 00:31:25,150 --> 00:31:27,590 Speaker 1: There's truth in there, right? That's all true. And yet 585 00:31:27,730 --> 00:31:29,850 Speaker 1: it's missing something so important. 586 00:31:30,250 --> 00:31:30,430 Speaker 4: Yeah. 587 00:31:30,490 --> 00:31:33,770 Speaker 3: It's so reductive as to sort of be absurd. You 588 00:31:33,790 --> 00:31:37,370 Speaker 3: really can't make people work like a machine. It's not 589 00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:39,690 Speaker 3: good for their soul. It's not good for making things. 590 00:31:39,710 --> 00:31:41,630 Speaker 3: And it's really not good for a business, ultimately. I 591 00:31:41,670 --> 00:31:44,590 Speaker 3: think we kind of learned that over time. Again, this 592 00:31:44,650 --> 00:31:47,930 Speaker 3: idea of getting things down to data points and efficiencies 593 00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:51,110 Speaker 3: and wringing out the inefficiencies of a system is a 594 00:31:51,170 --> 00:31:56,740 Speaker 3: very seductive process. And the whole world was entranced by Taylorism. 595 00:31:56,940 --> 00:31:57,260 Speaker 4: Yeah. 596 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,340 Speaker 1: Lenin had opinions about Taylor. Lenin looked at Taylor and 597 00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: Taylorism and said, this is just a terrible, oppressive, capitalist 598 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,870 Speaker 1: class struggle. Look over at America, these appalling things that 599 00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:13,110 Speaker 1: they're doing. And then after the revolution, Lenin's like, we 600 00:32:13,150 --> 00:32:15,770 Speaker 1: need to get ourselves some of these modern management methods. 601 00:32:16,030 --> 00:32:20,270 Speaker 1: And they immediately imported Taylorism. Because actually this language about 602 00:32:21,130 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: the worker as a kind of machine, I mean, yes, 603 00:32:24,250 --> 00:32:27,630 Speaker 1: it's very oppressive and capitalist, but actually it's also very 604 00:32:28,350 --> 00:32:30,530 Speaker 1: 1920s Soviet Union as well. You can see why that 605 00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:31,150 Speaker 1: echoed there. 606 00:32:31,510 --> 00:32:32,070 Speaker 3: Oh, totally. 607 00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:32,610 Speaker 4: Totally. 608 00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:35,010 Speaker 3: It's a very seductive idea of just like, how do 609 00:32:35,030 --> 00:32:37,890 Speaker 3: you make this thing work better? But in the end, 610 00:32:38,450 --> 00:32:43,310 Speaker 3: it's just hard to measure people's happiness and willingness and 611 00:32:43,610 --> 00:32:45,990 Speaker 3: community and being a part of thing. It's just hard 612 00:32:46,010 --> 00:32:48,550 Speaker 3: to measure those things, but they're super valuable. And I 613 00:32:48,570 --> 00:32:50,870 Speaker 3: think people maybe realize it a little bit more today. 614 00:32:50,890 --> 00:32:51,330 Speaker 3: I don't know. 615 00:32:51,810 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: Well, maybe, but there is an alternative viewpoint, which is that, oh, 616 00:32:57,690 --> 00:32:59,630 Speaker 1: The problem with Taylorism was he didn't have enough data. 617 00:32:59,670 --> 00:33:01,510 Speaker 1: He just had a stopwatch. Now we have. 618 00:33:01,850 --> 00:33:02,390 Speaker 3: That's right. 619 00:33:02,410 --> 00:33:04,750 Speaker 1: You know, we can, people are working remotely. We can 620 00:33:04,790 --> 00:33:08,110 Speaker 1: stick a camera on their computer. We can put tracking software. 621 00:33:08,350 --> 00:33:10,510 Speaker 1: We had a cautionary tale where we described a woman 622 00:33:10,550 --> 00:33:13,660 Speaker 1: who was, she had a fairly senior managerial role and 623 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,620 Speaker 1: she hadn't quite realized what she was signing up for. 624 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,620 Speaker 1: That a computer was basically taking a photograph every five 625 00:33:21,660 --> 00:33:24,540 Speaker 1: minutes or so. And you're not at your desk. You 626 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: go to the bathroom. Well, you know, we're not going 627 00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: to pay you for that five minutes. And, oh, you 628 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: walked away to go for a walk to think about 629 00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:33,580 Speaker 1: a business problem, or you picked up a notebook and 630 00:33:33,620 --> 00:33:36,380 Speaker 1: you wrote with a pencil, or you're on the phone 631 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: mentoring a junior employee. None of this stuff counts because 632 00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: it's not being measured by our system, but people continue 633 00:33:42,940 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: to have this illusion that they can measure what really matters. 634 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so depressing. But it's depressing, like it's so 635 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 3: terrible for workers. But I mean, holding that mindset as 636 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,490 Speaker 3: a person who like runs things, is also miserable. That's 637 00:33:59,510 --> 00:34:01,550 Speaker 3: what I don't get. That's not a headspace I want 638 00:34:01,610 --> 00:34:05,050 Speaker 3: to occupy. And I can't believe people willingly put themselves 639 00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:08,180 Speaker 3: into that, where they're checking and don't trust anyone who 640 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 3: works for them. That's a miserable way to live in 641 00:34:10,580 --> 00:34:12,820 Speaker 3: and of itself. It's a miserable way to run a business. 642 00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:17,500 Speaker 3: It just seems like we should just dispense with all 643 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:17,700 Speaker 3: of it. 644 00:34:18,620 --> 00:34:20,740 Speaker 1: But the workers fought back, right? The workers, they pushed 645 00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:21,340 Speaker 1: back hard. 646 00:34:21,660 --> 00:34:23,890 Speaker 3: Yeah, they did. I mean, like they use the clocks 647 00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:27,030 Speaker 3: against them. They would do their own measurements and try 648 00:34:27,050 --> 00:34:30,490 Speaker 3: to argue a different point, which, again, like sublimates and 649 00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:33,710 Speaker 3: sort of like includes like the language of the oppressor 650 00:34:33,770 --> 00:34:36,610 Speaker 3: in your argument back to them, which has its own problems. 651 00:34:36,690 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 3: But they did. And and sort of like the sort 652 00:34:39,860 --> 00:34:42,500 Speaker 3: of ultra orthodox Taylorism did sort of begin to die 653 00:34:42,620 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 3: out at a certain point, except for now, I guess, apparently, 654 00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 3: because now you can be monitored by a computer every 655 00:34:46,460 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 3: second of your existence. 656 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: So often it's, you know, it's about power. Who's holding 657 00:34:51,710 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: the stopwatch and who is not holding the stopwatch. We 658 00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:57,100 Speaker 1: should get back to the Bundy brothers. What happened to them? 659 00:34:57,420 --> 00:35:00,140 Speaker 3: The Bundy brothers did not see eye to eye in 660 00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 3: terms of what was important about what their work was. 661 00:35:03,620 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 1: Willard wanted to pour the profits into more beautiful clocks. 662 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:07,340 Speaker 4: Yeah. 663 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 3: I mean, he really was not made for this type 664 00:35:10,940 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 3: of cutthroat business and really wanted to make clocks and 665 00:35:13,460 --> 00:35:17,020 Speaker 3: really butted heads with Harlow, who at that point didn't 666 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,470 Speaker 3: really need Willard anymore. He had a development process that 667 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,220 Speaker 3: didn't involve him. Paid him very, very little. He and 668 00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:28,140 Speaker 3: his son argued for more pay. Harlow was unwilling to pay. 669 00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 3: They did finally break apart. But it was a tragic 670 00:35:31,540 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 3: story for Willard. Like, he never really recovered financially. 671 00:35:34,970 --> 00:35:36,890 Speaker 1: He tried to set up his own company, and his 672 00:35:36,970 --> 00:35:37,670 Speaker 1: brother sued him. 673 00:35:37,970 --> 00:35:40,370 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. He did sue him repeatedly. Yeah, I 674 00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:40,990 Speaker 3: forgot about that. 675 00:35:41,010 --> 00:35:42,090 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 676 00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:45,830 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was bad. It's bad. But it's a symptom 677 00:35:45,870 --> 00:35:46,590 Speaker 3: of the whole problem. 678 00:35:47,230 --> 00:35:48,910 Speaker 1: So, I mean, do I even need to ask what 679 00:35:48,930 --> 00:35:51,210 Speaker 1: the cautionary tale is with the Bundy clock? 680 00:35:51,570 --> 00:35:53,930 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think the cautionary tale there is like 681 00:35:54,290 --> 00:35:57,470 Speaker 3: when you try to reduce a complex interaction to a 682 00:35:57,510 --> 00:36:00,230 Speaker 3: simple set of numbers, humanity is lost. 683 00:36:01,370 --> 00:36:05,030 Speaker 1: So there are 100 objects in your series. So you've 684 00:36:05,050 --> 00:36:08,510 Speaker 1: given us three. And you're also encouraging your listeners to 685 00:36:08,530 --> 00:36:11,890 Speaker 1: get involved. So if people have an idea for an object, 686 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:13,100 Speaker 1: what should they do? 687 00:36:13,350 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 3: They should write us at 100objects at 99pi. 688 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 4: Org. 689 00:36:17,650 --> 00:36:19,650 Speaker 3: And let us know. And we are looking for things 690 00:36:19,690 --> 00:36:22,370 Speaker 3: that are personal, that are small. They don't have to 691 00:36:22,410 --> 00:36:27,390 Speaker 3: be something that is mass produced necessarily. So yeah, write us, 692 00:36:27,470 --> 00:36:30,170 Speaker 3: let us know how this little piece of history that 693 00:36:30,210 --> 00:36:32,590 Speaker 3: you have, that you're thinking of, tells the story of 694 00:36:32,650 --> 00:36:33,770 Speaker 3: America in some broader way. 695 00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:36,130 Speaker 1: Roman Mars, thank you very much. 696 00:36:36,450 --> 00:36:37,630 Speaker 3: Oh, it was a delight to be here. Thank you 697 00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:38,030 Speaker 3: so much. 698 00:36:38,490 --> 00:36:41,930 Speaker 1: Of course, you can hear a history of the United 699 00:36:41,970 --> 00:36:46,810 Speaker 1: States in 100 Objects, wherever you get your podcasts. You 700 00:36:46,850 --> 00:36:50,570 Speaker 1: can also hear it on the 99% Invisible podcast feed, which, 701 00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:55,370 Speaker 1: of course, you are subscribed to already. But just in 702 00:36:55,410 --> 00:37:00,280 Speaker 1: case some algorithm has unsubscribed you, resubscribe. And along with 703 00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:04,820 Speaker 1: the regular 99PI episodes, which are wonderful, you will hear... 704 00:37:05,260 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: All 100 objects, is that right? 705 00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:09,980 Speaker 3: You will eventually hear all 100 objects. We put a 706 00:37:10,020 --> 00:37:12,630 Speaker 3: new one out every Friday, so you'll eventually hear them. 707 00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:15,330 Speaker 3: And we only have about maybe 50 to 60 decided, 708 00:37:15,390 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 3: so people really can contribute and add more to it. 709 00:37:19,090 --> 00:37:23,110 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Check it out. Everyone subscribe immediately. 710 00:37:24,090 --> 00:37:24,330 Speaker 3: Yes. 711 00:37:24,450 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, I will be back next week with another cautionary tale. 712 00:37:35,910 --> 00:37:39,610 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is written by me, Tim Harford, with Andrew Wright, 713 00:37:40,010 --> 00:37:44,090 Speaker 1: Alice Fiennes and Ryan Dilley. It's produced by Georgia Mills 714 00:37:44,170 --> 00:37:48,540 Speaker 1: and Marilyn Rust. The show also wouldn't have been possible 715 00:37:48,580 --> 00:37:52,620 Speaker 1: without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, 716 00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: Keira Posey and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is a production 717 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,350 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, please remember 718 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,110 Speaker 1: to share, rate and review. really does make a difference 719 00:38:07,130 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: to us and if you want to hear it ad 720 00:38:10,660 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: free and receive a bonus audio episode video episode and 721 00:38:15,540 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 1: members only newsletter every month why not join the cautionary 722 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:25,060 Speaker 1: club to sign up head to patreon.com slash cautionary club 723 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: that's patreon p-a-t-r-e-o-n dot com slash cautionary club