1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Family Secrets as a production of I Heart Radio High 2 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 1: Family Secrets Listeners. It's Danny. I'm very excited to be 3 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: sharing a special bonus episode of Family Secrets with you all. 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: At the end of January. To celebrate the paperback publication 5 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: of my memoir Inheritance, I did a series of live 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: podcast events around the country and the first of these 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: was at the Music Hall in Portsmouth, New Hampshire with 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: the renowned trauma expert and author of The Body Keeps 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: the Score, Dr Bessel vander Kolke. After all, when it 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: comes to family secrets, trauma is inevitably involved. But when 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: Bessel and I sat down for our conversation, we none 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: of us had any idea that we were about to 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: enter a time of collective trauma. This will be a 14 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: two part special bonus episode my conversation with Bessel today 15 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: and then we'll share the conversation with the audience in 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: Portsmouth tomorrow. Good evening, everyone, it's great to be here. 17 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: It's great to be here with Bessel. It's amazing to 18 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: see this turnout on a late January evening in Portsmouth, 19 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: UM or anywhere really, um in this gorgeous theater. So 20 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: I was I was thinking about I've been thinking for 21 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: a while about coming here and doing this special live 22 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: episode of UM of Family Secrets with Bessel as my guest. 23 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about, I love full circle moments, 24 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: and this feels like one to me. About three winters ago, 25 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,919 Speaker 1: um I reached out to Bessel. We have a mutual friend, 26 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: the yogi and yoga philosopher Stephen Cope, and um I 27 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: was in uh complicated state. I had recently made the 28 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: discovery about a huge family secret of my own after 29 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: casually doing a DNA test, recreationally doing a DNA DNA 30 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: test the way I think of it, and discovered in 31 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: pretty short order that my beloved dad who raised me 32 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: had not been my biological father, which was something that 33 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: had never entered my mind. And so I was in 34 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: this state of really almost a kind of relationship to 35 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: my own self, my my identity, my body, my face 36 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: in the mirror. UM that felt traumatizing, um and shocking. 37 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: And I was walking around really feeling the physical symptoms 38 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: of that, the dizziness, the lightheadedness, the floatiness, and UM. 39 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: So I reached out to Bessel and he very kindly 40 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: agreed to meet me and we spent an afternoon talking 41 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: by a fire on a winter day, and I couldn't 42 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: have imagined, as it's been true in my life so 43 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: many times, that it would just be three short years 44 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: later and I would have synthesized this um metabolized this 45 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: experience into a book, Inheritance, and that then I would 46 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: simultaneously create this podcast, which was a happy accident. Um 47 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: just really briefly, I wrote this book about my family secret, 48 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: about my being the family secret, and then all of 49 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: a sudden people started telling me their's. And the very 50 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: first time that that happened, it was a friend of mine, 51 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: the Buddhist mindfulness teacher, Sylvia Borstein, and she had just 52 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: read the manuscript of Inheritance, and it prompted her to 53 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: tell me a story of a family secret of hers. 54 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: And I was on the other end of the phone, 55 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: and I thought, I wish I was recording this. And 56 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: that is the entire way that this podcast was born. 57 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: But one of the things that I've noticed in now 58 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: to going on three seasons of the podcast as thirty. 59 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: This new season is launching next week. It will be 60 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: thirty guests that I've spoken to, which is not it's 61 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: not really a scientific sample. But I've noticed a few things, 62 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: and one of the things that I've noticed is that 63 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: every guest of mine, at some point or another, no 64 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: matter what their story is, does use the word trauma. 65 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: And I guess I wanted to begin by there's a 66 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: there's a line from The Body Keeps the Score which 67 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: I just reread, uh and re underlined and felt new 68 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: things about. I think The Body Keeps the Score is 69 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: a book that you can probably come back to multiple 70 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: times and life and read it differently and have different 71 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: um different moments in it and different concepts in it 72 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: that are underscored. But I figured that you wrote the 73 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: book probably in around and you wrote that we're over 74 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: ten years. Yeah, you didn't write it in but as 75 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: you were writing this um at this point you wrote, 76 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: we're on the verge of becoming a trauma conscious society. 77 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 1: So I guess I wanted to ask you what you 78 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: meant by that then, and how does that sit with 79 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: you now seven years later. Well, I think that's a 80 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: very tough question because believe in this sharply divided world, 81 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: and at the same time that I no hundreds of 82 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: people around the country who are doing amazing work. I 83 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: know people who have these yoga programs in the Baltimore 84 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: Into City schools. I know people who have Shakespeare the 85 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: Kansas City, Kansas prisons, and just amazing programs, singing with soldiers, 86 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: working with horses and people are easy. There's enormous layers 87 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: of consciousness and really getting it. And then our mainstream 88 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: society becomes more and more rooted in there's destructive capitalist 89 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: world of how can we make more money and destroy 90 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: about a little bit faster so that we can make 91 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: more money, which is just a stolishing including medicine itself. 92 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: Of course, psychiatry very much so, of living with a 93 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: crazy diagnostic system, giving people labels that don't make any sense, 94 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: that have no scientific validity. And at the same time 95 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: there's other group of people who don't get paid by insurance, 96 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: who you know, who are not part of the system. 97 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: Be the discovering a lot and they see the difference 98 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: becomes a larger and larger in a way UM and 99 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: I don't get it, it's very much, but you see, 100 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: so it becomes right now, So it becomes larger and larger. 101 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: And yet at the same time there's more and more 102 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: of an identification of UM and experience, a piece of history, 103 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: a parent and aspect of childhood, um as as being 104 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: identified as trauma. More and more, it seems, I mean, 105 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: your book has it came out three years ago, four 106 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: years ago, and there's a reason why your book is 107 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: occupied the top three spots of the New York Times 108 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: Paperback nonfiction bestseller list for an entire year. Um, people 109 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: in airports are thinking, I know what I'm gonna read. 110 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna read Daniel Steele. I'm not going to 111 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: read Danny Shapiro. No. Also because it's the next book 112 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: you read. You know. So what what do you think 113 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: that that that hung is about. That's again, it's a 114 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: tricky question. I see it, and I see so I'm 115 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: so impressed that I live in a particular world. People 116 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: ask me all the time what was happening in the world. 117 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: I said, I don't know. I just know the people 118 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: I know and know the people who come to see me, 119 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: the people who I hang out with, the people who 120 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: want to share their work with me, and I meet 121 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: always enlightened, very thoughtful, very mindful people. At the same 122 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: thing to people I don't see like you on your 123 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: stories about I said, and I don't know how large 124 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: this is, you know, and so I don't know, but 125 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: I know that that there's many places, almost every place 126 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: that I go to. I meant, people who do amazing 127 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: things in terms of getting into your body, telling the truth, 128 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: speaking openly, trying to lead an authentic life. Interestingly, also 129 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley, which is the hubble of the world 130 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: in some ways, where there's all the money and all 131 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: these immature people doing amazing things and crazy things, and 132 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: yet people are also really searching for how do we 133 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: keep ourselves together, how do we pay attention to each other? 134 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: And so there's a very serious effort to understand how 135 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: we can make safe, safe and energizic places for each other. 136 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: My mind just went to the quote unquote wellness movement 137 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: as something that's kind of adjacent to this in a 138 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: way where I think we, meaning we who think about 139 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: these things are thinking about the body more and more 140 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: as the place that is the locus of where it 141 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: all gets expressed. I mean, there's a moment in your 142 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: book probably several where you talk about god instincts, right 143 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: or And I remember when I was reading that thinking, 144 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: I have never in my life had a got instinct 145 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: and followed it and regretted it, and I have had 146 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: got instincts and ignored them, and that that leads to 147 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: you know, walls and trouble. I think, but that the 148 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: idea that we're listening listening to our body is more Yes, 149 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: we are, you know, in certain circles at the same 150 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 1: time that we know the importance of the body and 151 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: being saved together. Our published school systems are abolishing um 152 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: recess our bodies, theater are abolishing sports and giving kids 153 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: tests to substitute for that. One of the Obama's worst 154 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: appointments are you, Duncan, who who just ramped a little 155 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: test gets wrote completely ignoring the natural thing that the 156 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: kidneys to do is to play at the horse about 157 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: and to feel your body RelA ship other bodies. And 158 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: so you have these layers that live side by side. 159 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: Um um. I don't know the prevalence of idolt. I 160 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: see a lot of good things happening, but I see 161 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: a lot of bad things happening at the same time. 162 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: Let me, for example, the dean of my medical school 163 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: UH called me and said, I've read your book, and 164 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: I think you can really help us because we have 165 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: a terrible problem with burnout more of our doctors, law 166 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: of suicide, people leaving people being horribly depressed. And can 167 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: you help us? I said, I'd love to h and 168 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: then she said, but you cannot change the system. I guess, 169 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: so where should I help you if you're unwilling to 170 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: actually look at the fact that you're only allowed to 171 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: see people for seven minutes and not from a long 172 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: term relationship with them, which is the well spring of 173 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: human wellness is long term relationships, as your books A 174 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: beautifully talks about. You know, we're basically law people who 175 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: like to belong to groups of people, and that's our essence. 176 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: And if you live in a completely alienated, uh corporate world, 177 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: all the connection get ignored and loyalty doesn't get rewarded 178 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: and you're not on the right track. Well, and of 179 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: course you're talking about the ground of childhood as as 180 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: where so many tracks get laid that once they're laid 181 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: are the question really is how we're able to or 182 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: whether we're able to adapt to act to have efficacy right. Um. 183 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: I think generally, if you have resources, you can find 184 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: all kinds of ways to really change yourself. You do it. 185 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: Change yourself is actually engage in things that dive actually 186 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: contradict what you were. You're holding your body. So when 187 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: you're stiffened up, taking tang or dancing lessons would be 188 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: very good. Be just justin tune with somebody else. I 189 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: talked a lot about singing. We know a lot about 190 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: the new ablehold. You're singing about us to the brain. 191 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: Singing together is marvelous thing. It really makes you feel 192 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: cheerful and the mystic and connected. But we don't sing anymore. 193 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: You can still go to singing camp or take a 194 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: workshops where we do sing. So when you say resources, 195 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: what do you what do you mean by resources? Like, 196 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: if you have the resources, you have resources? What what 197 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: are we? What are resources? You need money, you need 198 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: time off, you need to access, have access to stuff. 199 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: And maybe a little community like enforcement, maybe a rich 200 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: community in terms of resources. There are yoga classes, their 201 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: tychi classes, they're choirs, their places and double a A meetings. 202 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: These were people can come to and actually meet each 203 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: other and get to know each other. Maybe that's why 204 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: people moved to place like like it needs to be around, 205 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: it needs to be visible. We'll be back in a 206 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: moment with more family secrets. We were talking backstage about 207 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: one of the patients that you write about in your 208 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: book who really didn't have the kindergarten teacher, who really 209 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: had a very very difficult childhood. I mean one would 210 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: say not a lot of resources right available to her, 211 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: who ended up more than okay, you know, with a 212 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: with a with a very fulfilled life. How does that happen? See, 213 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: nothing is linear, you know, it's like that leads to death, 214 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: and that leads to death. But you say she had 215 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: no resources, which of what I said, But I said 216 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: it was horribly abused by both of her parents. But 217 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: a mid music together at home. And I think something 218 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: like making music together and just letting it hang out 219 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: and getting into his people can be enormously powerful to 220 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: just to get things you cannot lie and play music 221 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: that there's truthmaking and and getting the stone fight and 222 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: get doing it to write mom and stuff like that. 223 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: That's interesting. Tomorrow night, I'm going to be in New 224 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: York City and my guest is this UH singer songwriter 225 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: named Alison Moore. And Allison was I mean, she's she's 226 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: the daughter of two Nashville country singers. Father was an alcoholic. 227 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: They made music together, all of them. The two sisters 228 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: and the father and the mother, and then when she 229 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: was fourteen, her father shot and killed her mother and 230 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: then turned his gun against himself and committed suicide. And 231 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: I've thought a lot about Allison in preparation for talking 232 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: to her and her sister Shelby Lynn, who are both beauty, 233 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: beutiful singer songwriters, and I think a big part of 234 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: what had to have saved them in some way was 235 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: was music and the memory of the music that they 236 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: made with their with their parents when they were all together. Yeah, 237 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: I would think that, like we talk backstage about our 238 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: lived just backgrounds, I bet that yon Kipper services still 239 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: move you deeply, even though you may not practices. I 240 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: still love back data start like that from my background 241 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's the it's the ground of um. 242 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: You know. I was. I was telling you that I 243 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: wrote this memoir called Devotion, and one of the things 244 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: that I discovered after it was published, I was expecting 245 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: because I because I was raised observant in a very 246 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: strict home, I was always envious of people who were 247 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: brought up with nothing because I thought that they just 248 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: meant we got to choose, you know, uh, with no guilt. 249 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: You know, you could just pick from the Smorga's board 250 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: of religions. And what I was struck by and learned 251 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: just from people responding to me to the book was 252 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: that the people who were brought up with nothing were 253 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: actually the most lost and confused in their spiritual life, 254 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: and that growing up with anything gave people either something 255 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: to remember or something to to rail against. But it 256 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: was something formative, living up with rules and structures. And 257 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: when they call liturgies, it's very important, and we will 258 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: believe in literature. You get up and every Saturday you 259 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: do a particular thing, and every fortune July you do 260 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: another thing, and you know what to look for, a 261 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: certain regularity to life, and little predictability and a little 262 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: thing of At that time, we're really to go to 263 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: devote ourselves to something that we do together, which oledge 264 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: of course, do you make noises together, you move together? 265 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: And I think being vased in something like that is 266 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: very important. You talk a lot about um action as being, 267 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: and you're you're talking particularly about um the kinds of 268 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: capital t traumas you know, as I think of them, 269 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: UM where someone is trapped or someone is in a 270 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: burning car and can't save the people around them, or 271 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: someone is violently attacked and can't move, and the inability 272 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: to take action somehow embeds itself and makes UM recovery 273 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: or reprocessing more complex. Or it's a combination of two things, 274 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: so that basically, when you're exposed to something horrenda's you're 275 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: automatically meant to move or meant to do something. If 276 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: at that point you don't move or do something, the 277 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: horror wors to trigger your brain to move, actually go 278 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: in a different direction, take a different path, take a 279 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: path into collapse and helplessness. So when people started messing 280 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: with you, the normal thing is like get the hell 281 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: away from me and to move. UM. The thing that 282 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,479 Speaker 1: happens to many people has when something scary it happens, 283 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: they collapse and come forth. So it's the opposite of 284 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: fight or flight. Yeah right, it's we need to collapse 285 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: that keeps people going. So it's actually just I um. 286 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: I said. There's a program called Impact used to be 287 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: called model mugging where you train women who I think 288 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: it happens to many people, particularly women who have been abused. 289 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: They bodies stand to be collapsed of I can't do 290 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: anything or anything I'm good for it. And they teach 291 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: them martial arts and to fight and to recreate the 292 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: most scary thing into lives and to take action where 293 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: they couldn't take action before. To my mind, a beautiful 294 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: program to help people to get out of that physical 295 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: sense of helplessness. And you don't become a tough broad instead, 296 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: he just becomes become a person who walks through the 297 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: world with self confidence. Well, there's so much. I mean, 298 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: I was very struck by the story that you tell 299 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: very early in the book about family friends of yours 300 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: and their little boy who were very close to the 301 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: towers on nine eleven UM. And it was his first 302 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: day of school, I think. And um, so he saw 303 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: a lot as many people didn't many children did. And 304 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: his parents had you know, you visited parents. Um, we're 305 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: processing what they were processing. But it was a very loving, um, 306 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 1: safe grounded family environment. And actually and I walked through 307 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: clean up side on September fift They knew the rescue worker, 308 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: so we we were in the sten stuff. We did 309 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: something we didn't just talk about home and and and 310 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: and the boy came as well. So he then draws 311 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: a he makes a drawing and it's a drawing of 312 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: the buildings, and the buildings are on fire, and there 313 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: are there are people jumping from the buildings, and then 314 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: there's something that you can't quite make out at the 315 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: bottom of the drawing, and it's a black circle. And 316 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: you asked him what was his name? Um, what's what's 317 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: the boy's name? No? No, no, yeah, no, what's the 318 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: what's what's the blacks circle? And he says, that's a trampoline. 319 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: Is so moving? That's a tramp and and what you 320 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: describe as the way that he found an adaptation that 321 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: his his mind was able to was able to imagine 322 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: alternatives very much. Can they talk about your book? You 323 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: find out it's this horrendous piece of news, that dirty devastation. 324 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: Next thing, you go online and find out who that relative. Maybe, 325 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 1: so you immediately get to keep gear and do something 326 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,239 Speaker 1: instead of pretending like, okay, didn't happen. Let me just 327 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: keep that very fooled, like everything is normal. You immediately 328 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: goes into action, including lying your bed and contemplating what 329 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: what you were going to do. But your own story 330 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: is it is a remarkable story about resilience itself. And 331 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: you use what you do best, which is finding words, 332 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: And you wish, said everybody, because finding words is a 333 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: beautiful thing. I felt, I've never been more grateful to 334 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: that this is what I do. Um, although I also 335 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 1: think it's kind of a chicken and egg situation, like 336 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: is this what I do? Because this was always the 337 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,479 Speaker 1: story that was lurking, It's impossible to really pry them apart. 338 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: There's some way in which this was always the story 339 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: that was lurking beneath all the other stories. I always 340 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: wrote about family secrets. All my novels were centered around 341 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: the corrosive power of secrets and families. And then I 342 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: started writing memoirs. No one was more surprised than me. 343 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: Why was I writing memoirs. I wasn't particularly interested in 344 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: my own life, but I was digging for something, and 345 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: I was using my life sort of as a laboratory 346 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: to try to make inquiries into things that I was interesting. Interesting, 347 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: m you could make it interesting. Not everybody can do that, 348 00:23:54,840 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, well, I was like trying to always put 349 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: together what belongs with what It always felt like a puzzle. 350 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: And then the answer to the biggest puzzle of all, 351 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, the line and inheritance, where I write I 352 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: always knew there was a secret when I didn't know 353 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: the secret was me. That's right, I think that. And 354 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: so we're just finishing up our work book for a book, 355 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: and we invite people to write all the time. And 356 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: also my organized way to just start writing. Take a glass, 357 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: start writing about the glass. See what comes up. By 358 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: free writing, sooner or later, piece of yourself start getting 359 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: revealed much better than if you and I talked to 360 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: each other, because if I talked to you, I meanly 361 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: worried about better, you will like what I'm saying. But 362 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: I think I'm smart. But if you write to yourself 363 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: that critic concurce teme because I'm just going to write 364 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: some nonsense. You can't do that because you have to 365 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: make a living, do it. We'll be back in a 366 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: moment with more family secrets. When I teach Larger treats 367 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: a couple of times a year, there's an exercise that 368 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: I love giving the group and it's based on a 369 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: book that came out in the eighties by a writer 370 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: named Joe Brainerd. And the book is called I Remember, 371 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: which are two of the most evocative words when put 372 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: together in the English language. If you begin with the 373 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: words I remember, you will finish that sentence and then 374 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: drop down a line and then begin again. I remember 375 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: dropped down the line. And then it becomes associative. And 376 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: I sit from where I sit, and I look out 377 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: at a room full of people and they're all writing. 378 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: No one stops, and and then they discover things. And 379 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: then I have them go back to their rooms that 380 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: night and say, now right, I don't remember you don't 381 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: necessarily shared it with people. That's the important Say yes, 382 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: you're right for yourself and find words for your inner world. 383 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: That it's actually your book, also your in this piece 384 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: of truth, and you're basically dumbfounded, and you talk about 385 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: my quotation from trauma that trauma is a known verbal experience, 386 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: and then you start finding words to begin to borgainize 387 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: you relationship to yourself, which is beautiful. Well, I I 388 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: quote you in in the book, and it's actually from 389 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: the interview that you did with Christa Tippett Um that 390 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: I was driving along and it absolutely just you stopped 391 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: me in my tracks, which was, Um, it's the nature 392 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: of trauma that it doesn't allow a story to be told. 393 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: And I realized I realized something interesting about writing about trauma. 394 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: Because when I began Inheritance, I started writing right away. 395 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: I was writing on index cards. I was trying to 396 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: remember because my brain was kind of injured a little bit, 397 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: so words, I thought, thoughts that I wanted to retain. 398 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: I was afraid I wouldn't be able to bring them 399 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: back or remember. And then I started actually writing, and 400 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: I wrote about two hundred pages as I was researching 401 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: and doing and then I had to go way because 402 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: my last book was coming out and I was traveling, 403 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: So I left the pages, which were pages I was 404 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: feeling okay about. And when I came back and I 405 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: reread them, my heart just sank because they were no good. 406 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: They were they were recursive. They were an exercise in 407 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: writing from trauma if the nature of trauma is that 408 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: it doesn't allow a story to be told. I was 409 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: returning again and again to the same questions without new 410 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: insight or new additions to those questions, which is, I think, 411 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: what when we tell stories in a state of trauma, 412 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: that's kind of what we're doing. And I kept on this, 413 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: the question I kept returning to over and over again, 414 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: what did my mother know? What did my father know? 415 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: And it wasn't going anywhere, and I realized, I think 416 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: poets can write directly from trauma. I think they're the 417 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: only but the prose prose can't come directly from that place. 418 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: It needs a tiny, little, full crumb of distance. When 419 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: I finally started again, I realized that I wanted to 420 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,959 Speaker 1: write from a place where I could go into the past, 421 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: where I could be in the present of the story, 422 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: and where I could also make these leaps into I 423 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: wanted to hold the present, the past, and the future 424 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: in in in my hands and be able to I 425 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: wanted to be a storyteller, and I wanted to shape 426 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: order out of the chaos of the story, which is 427 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 1: what I do. And one of the insights that I 428 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: had um in rereading The Body Keeps the Score was 429 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: that I think that that was my action that in order, 430 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: like starting to report, starting to research, starting to write. 431 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I love the question when people say, how 432 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: soon did you know you were going to write a 433 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: book about this? Like five seconds? Because what else was 434 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: I going to do? It's how I how you do it, 435 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: It's how I do it, It's how I know any 436 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: new choreographer you would have bade it down side of it, 437 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. But I remember saying to my 438 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: therapist at the time, um, what if I were a 439 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: lawyer and I just had to go back to my 440 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: law firm and go back to work. And she said, well, 441 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: you probably would start drinking way too much an event 442 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: and eventually have a little mini breakdown and have to 443 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: take some time off. Um. But the stuffing it away, 444 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: the shelving at the compartmentalizing it, um, I imagine that 445 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: that's what a lot of people do for a while 446 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: until it doesn't work anymore. And to my Mike, does 447 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: a woman come to my thirty one annual Traumicas this year? 448 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: Her name is Anita Sawyer, who is a psychologist professor. 449 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: I met her, sat next to her in the Parliament Yale, 450 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: and she said, when I was a kid, I was 451 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: hospitalized for cutting myself, for eating glass, for it was 452 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: prereendous things, and they called the schizophrenic, he called me 453 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: bipolar order, they called me all these names. And then 454 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: but became very clear I was re enacting my sexual 455 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: trauma as a kid. And then slowly she found words 456 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: for herself and what it was, eaty touched by. She 457 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: didn't have any pretense that she was a writer. She 458 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: she got scholarships to go to writing retreats and maybe 459 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: she do classes with you, Beful, I know, and she 460 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: learned to write and tell her truth. And it's just stunning, 461 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: stunning thing that she was able to be deliberate, this 462 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: poor girl who was so abused from herself by finding 463 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: language for the experience for the girls just spectacular. And 464 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: when when I was jealous of because I didn't do 465 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,239 Speaker 1: that when I brought my book, is that we need 466 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: to have more writing retreats. We have the knee, more 467 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: places where people can go and safely right about themselves, 468 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: because safely experience themselves and right now you need to 469 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: go to another house. In order to do that, they 470 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: have to insurance to pay for it. You know, let's 471 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: complete so true. You know we're in New England, so 472 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: this will make sense to a lot of you. But 473 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: so I teach once a year at Crapolo, and and 474 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: Cropola looks a little bit like a nuthouse when you're 475 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: driving up to it. And a mother and daughter who 476 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: came together once, maybe a year or two ago, and 477 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 1: they later told me that they're pulling up the driveway 478 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: and the daughter's said to the mother mom Am, I 479 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: going to rehab, but Old Jasmine Building is still a 480 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,959 Speaker 1: bit kind of It restores my faith in humanity whenever 481 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: I lead one of those retreats, because people are coming 482 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: from everywhere and they're not necessarily writers. There are people 483 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: in there because they've published books and they want something 484 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: out of the weekend. That's that there are people in 485 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: there who are really just in this place of not 486 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: just they're in a place of self exploration and their 487 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: side by side. And I always tell them when they're 488 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: about to write something, you're you're not going to share this, 489 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: or you are going to share this. And there are 490 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: exercises I give them that they will share, and I 491 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: break them up into small groups and they go all 492 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: over the you know that main hall in Incropollo, and 493 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: as they're they're sharing their work. That's what restores my 494 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: faith in humanity because I walk around the room and 495 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: I see all of these people who have never met 496 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: each other before that day, and they are leaning forward 497 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: and they're listening, they're crying. There's such a there's such 498 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: a longing and a hunger for that kind of connection. See, 499 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: and that gets back to your early impressionive, is there 500 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: an increased all the sending of trauma. Is it or 501 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: is it worth? The critical issue is once believe in authority. 502 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: You know, um, do I go to somebody who knows 503 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: it all? Or m I do authority? But you're traumatized. 504 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: It's very hard to believe that you're the authority, but 505 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: you are. And so the critical thing that you probably 506 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: do in your workshops that I do in my workshops 507 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: is really the focus of control is inside of you 508 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: and to discover yourself, and nobody can do that for you. 509 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: You can create an the place where people can do it. 510 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: You can go to your down studio, your music study, 511 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: the writing studio, but the end you have to put 512 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: it out and you can't do it in your head. 513 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing that I think of the 514 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: writing workshops that I've taught over many years, you know, 515 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: small academic writing workshops, and I think of them now 516 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: as a bunch of bubble heads around a table like 517 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: kind of disconnected from bodies. And I can no longer 518 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: when I teach, I can never teach without including meditation 519 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: in my teaching without I mean, I'm not a yoga teacher, 520 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: but I incorporate yoga or bringing a yoga teacher, because 521 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: that sense of stories being um caught or trapped in 522 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: the body. I mean, Stephen Cope writes so about that 523 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: a lot in yoga, in The Quest for the True Self, 524 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: or you know, anyone who has practiced yoga knows that 525 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: feeling of being in a certain pose like a hip opener, 526 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: and suddenly like we have such little access to our 527 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: histories in our inner lives. It means shocking to me 528 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: how little access we have. And I've come that's become 529 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: so clear to me since my discovery because I go back. 530 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: I recently had reason to go back and read my 531 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: early work to see I have a unique capacity to 532 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 1: see what I knew or didn't know. The year old 533 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: writing her first novel, did she know? She knew? It's there, 534 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: It's there on the page. It makes me just bow 535 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,959 Speaker 1: down and say, yes, there is an unconscious and it's 536 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: alive and well and living in all of us. Because I, 537 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: through the path of all of my books, was somehow 538 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: tracing this um. I mean, in one of my books 539 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: a few years ago, way before before my discovery, I 540 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: wrote about snooping through my parents things, haunting my mother's closets. 541 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: You know, really yeah, I think I read about all 542 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,919 Speaker 1: my books. Don't let me stay in your house. Um. 543 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: But but the the language that stopped me, stopped me 544 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: was what was I looking for a clue? A reason? 545 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: I wrote that I was looking for a reason. I 546 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: mean that just sort of astonishes me. Um. Can you 547 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about some of what people can do, 548 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, the tools that you write about, whether it's 549 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,919 Speaker 1: M d R or it's that amazing theater therapy that 550 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: I found completely fascinating. I wanted to do it well, 551 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: Stephen Cope, we mentioned before, I thought this book, you're 552 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: going to true self as a true a true book 553 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: and learning to inhabit your body. It's terribly important. You know. 554 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: I've done all these different things. Um, but I think 555 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: what may be most most helpful for me is to 556 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: get rolled. ROL is the most intense body therapy there is. 557 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: I was born at the end of the second god Board. 558 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: Half of my birth co or died because of the 559 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: star fishing card. I barely made it and it was 560 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: just sickly little kid. I was had asthma and I 561 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: was a frozen little boy. And not until my body 562 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: was opened up out of its position did I begin 563 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: to be reflourish intellectually. Also, it's interesting and say something 564 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: needs to be opened up in your body. And I 565 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: think yoga martial arts may be very very helpful that 566 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: you just give you a sense of presence and agency 567 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: on a physical level. There's not not enough, not a 568 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: lot of it doesn't solve your problems, but I certainly 569 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: opous things up. UM. Have you talked about it in 570 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: the back e MDR was a great breakthrough to me. 571 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: UM in my training, I started with Fritz Burs before 572 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: did my residency, and I think we should explain to 573 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 1: people what I let let me do. Fritz Burs first, 574 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: Fritz Fritz Burs and the old weird guy in Nassal 575 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: we're no ar teaching. UM had people sit, talk to 576 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: each other, different parts of each other, moved from chail 577 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: to chair, called front part of themselves, do a lot 578 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: of acting. And I started my training at Harvard and 579 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: I was called in and said, if I hear you move, 580 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: if I ever hear you move your patients again, you're fired. 581 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: And I'll be sure you never get a job as 582 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: a trist because we don't move. We give drugs and 583 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,919 Speaker 1: we talk to people. We don't move. I said, yes, sir, 584 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: so I didn't because we believe in authority, but you're 585 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: and so I didn't do anything. And then the MDR 586 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: a weird treatment where you move your fingers in front 587 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: of people's eyes. This is our thing, you know, I 588 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: no one of no we believesn't it. And I started 589 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: to do it, and people just and in these older 590 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: states of consciousness and their memories started to go like, yeah, 591 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: that happened to me, shaid that poor kid. But the 592 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 1: kid had to put up it back then. But it 593 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: sort of allowed your brain to put it into the 594 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: past and to associated to do things. And just this 595 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: past year, after twenty years of hustling for stealing from 596 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: other grounds, we define it to study how e MDR 597 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,760 Speaker 1: works and to actually change the brain circuits that allow 598 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: you to observe yourself and to activate part of the 599 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: brain is largely to say this happened to be a 600 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: long time ago, but it's not happening right now. And 601 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: so these beauty eye movements change brain tracks. And almost 602 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: all my colleagues said, that's bizarre. I don't won't give 603 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: you any money to study about this. Bizarre movements do, 604 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: but joys are bizarre. Of once changed brain tracks in 605 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: a very profound way, probably more more powerful than any 606 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: drum that we know of. Um and sorry, and that's 607 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,959 Speaker 1: true for everybody who's wives drama. You have to try 608 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: things out, and some of the things may be strange, 609 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: like checking or what people do in China to tai 610 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: chi everybody, it works. You actually recommended kickboxing in the 611 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: in the boat by boat and at the end of 612 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: the summer and seen it and it was struggling with 613 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: her if she don't getting anywhere, she did kickbooksing. So 614 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: as she comes into September and she marched into my office. 615 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: So what's happened to you? I said, less. It took 616 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: some kickboxing lessons and my husband and I gets a 617 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: little much better than able, just a less. For more 618 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 619 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.