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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if.

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Speaker 2: You've had experience with manipulation or abusive power that you'd

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Speaker 2: like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, trust for trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived. To you

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Speaker 3: never a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two mountaineers who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm lo La Blanc.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And this week is part one of our interview with

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Speaker 2: Alicia B. Dierkson, author of Out of the Wilderness, Escaping

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Speaker 2: My Father's Prison, and My Journey to Forgiveness. So in

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Speaker 2: this part, in this first part here we'll talk about

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Speaker 2: her father's upbringing, how it came from this well to

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Speaker 2: do family, rejected that lifestyle by becoming a hippi and

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Speaker 2: then discovered Christianity, which he took on as a sort

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Speaker 2: of a self proclaimed prophet who needed to spread the gospel.

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Speaker 1: She'll share how he moved their family into a tiny

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Speaker 1: cabin in the wilderness with no electricity, running water, or bathroom,

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Speaker 1: and how it was connected to Jack Nicholson, the gaslighting

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Speaker 1: and physical abuse he inflicted on her, and how in

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Speaker 1: the midst of her trauma she found comfort in their animals.

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Speaker 2: And heads up, y'all, This episode and next week's episode

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Speaker 2: contained a lot of really harrowing, difficult descriptions of physical

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Speaker 2: and emotional abuse and trauma. And it's pretty heavy stuff.

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Speaker 2: So if you are not ready to delve into the

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Speaker 2: darkness with us, makes sense, all good?

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Speaker 1: Just maybe skip this episode in maybe next week's great

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Speaker 1: Episodes though, great book if you are.

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Speaker 2: Ready, absolutely transfixing story. But I left our interview just

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Speaker 2: like with such a heavy heart because of the things

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Speaker 2: that this woman has experienced. But she's come out of

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Speaker 2: it and that's the point. That's the point. Yeah, survivors

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Speaker 2: called survivors for a reason. So before we dive in

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Speaker 2: with Alisha ba Megan, can you tell me your cultiest

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Speaker 2: thing this week? Sure?

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Speaker 1: I mean this week it's all myself. I made a

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Speaker 1: little video about my own cult that I'm in which

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Speaker 1: is just spirituality hodgepodge together in a very weird way.

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Speaker 1: And like a year ago, I asked my friends to

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Speaker 1: come over for a full moon circle and they were like, Megan,

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Speaker 1: it's not the full moon today, not even close.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: And so then I just wrote a song about a

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Speaker 1: girl who throws a full moon circle on the wrong

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Speaker 1: day so the moon kills her, and I kind of

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Speaker 1: played around with just that white girl burning man like

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Speaker 1: they're in like headdresses, type of a thing that I

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Speaker 1: hate when people do, so that it's fun when my

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Speaker 1: head explodes, you know what I mean. So that's out now.

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Speaker 1: It's called Full Moon Circle by Crazy Girl Therapy, and

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Speaker 1: it's about the cults of Meganology.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm a meganologist.

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Speaker 1: You're a mechanologist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's such an enlightening religion, kind of life changing.

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Speaker 1: What about you. What's the culdiest thing that happened to

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Speaker 1: you this week?

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Speaker 2: So many things, Megan, but we're we're not going to

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Speaker 2: talk about those things today because Mom's got to process them.

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Speaker 2: But in the meantime, we'll talk about a group I

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Speaker 2: just read about called Happy Science, and it's based out

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Speaker 2: of Tokyo, I guess, but it's worldwide now they have

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Speaker 2: I guess you would call it a church or like

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Speaker 2: centers or something in New York and la all over

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Speaker 2: the place. Some have called it Tokyo's answer to scientology.

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Speaker 2: It is led by a man who claims that he

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Speaker 2: channels Buddha and Jesus and Freddie Mercury, and he told

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Speaker 2: everyone that he could defeat the coronavirus if you paid him.

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Speaker 2: It's very doomsday e it's enterprising.

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Speaker 1: Why is it called Happy Science?

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Speaker 3: Then?

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Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be Apparently it's many.

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Speaker 2: Many texts, according to this New York Times article, are

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Speaker 2: filled with UFOs, lost continents, and demonic warfare, and also

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Speaker 2: detail the supernatural and extraterrestrial origins of COVID. I wonder

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Speaker 2: where they've landed on that now that COVID has calmed

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Speaker 2: a bit. So they were apparently offering spiritual vaccines for

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Speaker 2: a fee. Titles of their texts include alien Invasion, seven

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Speaker 2: Future Predictions, Spiritual Message from the Guardian Spirit of Donald Trump,

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Speaker 2: and so on. According to Happy Science, the virus was

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Speaker 2: created as a bioweapon by the Chinese government. A lot

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Speaker 2: of conspiracy theorists think this and then also was unleashed

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Speaker 2: by a UFO to punish the Communists for their godless ways,

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Speaker 2: and it's spread to other lands that lack true faith.

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Speaker 2: So I guess every land lacks true faith, because pretty

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Speaker 2: sure this was a worldwide pandemic. Anyway, it's just interesting

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Speaker 2: to read about that. It's apparently huge, and I couldn't

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Speaker 2: believe we hadn't ever heard of this one before.

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of it. Yeah, why is it called

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Speaker 1: Happy Science when it's so scary? I mean, seriously, I

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Speaker 1: thought you were going to say it was something completely different.

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Speaker 2: I love the name. I don't know, but apparently okay,

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Speaker 2: so again, I'm just quoting this New York Times article. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: Happy Science has left scores of disaffective members and it's wake.

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Speaker 2: Opponents accuse the group of fleecing acolytes and what they

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Speaker 2: say amounts to a pyramid scheme. Which also, of course,

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Speaker 2: the leader is a multimillionaire, which how could he not be? Oh,

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Speaker 2: mister Okawa, who's the prophet or whatever. His own son, Hiroshi,

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Speaker 2: once primed as a successor, is now one of Happy

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Speaker 2: Science's most vocal critics. In a message he said of

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Speaker 2: his father quote, he claimed to have received the messages

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Speaker 2: of God. He relentlessly lied to his followers. I believe

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Speaker 2: what my father does is complete nonsense. So maybe we

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Speaker 2: should find Heroshi and try to talk to him.

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Speaker 1: I would love to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, but now it's time to talk to

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Speaker 2: Alishaba and get a sense of what it's like living

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Speaker 2: in an isolated wilderness family. What do you think, let's

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Speaker 2: do it, all right, let's go. Welcome aliciabud Dirksen to

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Speaker 2: trust me. Thank you for being here. So you wrote

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Speaker 2: a book, You wrote a gripping, harrowing book called Out

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Speaker 2: of the Wilderness, Escaping my Father's Prison and My Journey

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Speaker 2: to Forgiveness. And let me tell you, we've had on

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Speaker 2: a lot of really a lot of survivors who've been

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Speaker 2: through a lot of stuff. I feel like yours is

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Speaker 2: one of the most difficult that I've personally encountered.

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Speaker 1: What do you think I mean, Yeah, it's hard to

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Speaker 1: compare stuff like that, But just physically, you guys were

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Speaker 1: living in the middle of nowhere doing so much hard labor.

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Speaker 2: It's just very, very intense. I can't believe what you've

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Speaker 2: been through. So let's start talking. Yeah, So your book

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Speaker 2: opens on a very dramatic story of an escape in

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Speaker 2: the wilderness of Alaska and what year was that in

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Speaker 2: before we get into the actual story, just to kind

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Speaker 2: of put the timeline.

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Speaker 3: And yes, that was an five.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you get out in five. Start off by

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Speaker 2: telling us a little bit about your dad and who

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Speaker 2: he was.

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Speaker 1: Where was he born, and when did he become religious?

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Speaker 1: Do you think, like what was his journey like?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, he was born in Texas Fort Worth, Texas

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Speaker 3: to a couple. His father was actually very famous ib Hale.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's in the Hall of Fame. He became

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Speaker 3: an FBI agent and he was one of the FBI

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Speaker 3: agents that was behind Jay Hagar Hoover when he was assassinated.

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Speaker 3: And so, I mean my father was he had an

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Speaker 3: identical twin brother. I think he was just born to

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Speaker 3: a famous dad who didn't have any time for him.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, he pretty much with a little rascal. His

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Speaker 3: poor mom couldn't hardly handle him.

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Speaker 1: Ah haha.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've never heard of someone who engaged

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Speaker 2: in the level of abuse that your dad had who

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Speaker 2: came from I mean, I know it happens, but on

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Speaker 2: this show, who came from a like sort of a

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Speaker 2: prominent family, Like, I feel like that is actually kind

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Speaker 2: of a first which is interesting. So how did he

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Speaker 2: connect with your mom and how did they go from

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Speaker 2: being the sort of like hippies, which they were originally

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Speaker 2: two kind of fundamentalist Christians.

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Speaker 3: Okay, just a little tiny summary. I guess the highlights

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Speaker 3: would be, you know, he grew up fighting his way

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Speaker 3: through life everything from you know, his mom getting a

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Speaker 3: knock on the door in the middle of the night

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Speaker 3: and policeman has two twins under his arm, one of

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Speaker 3: Bobby and Billy and says, hey, you know your boys

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Speaker 3: were out in the mud puddle, naked, bare budded. Can

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Speaker 3: you please take care of these rascals? And she's like,

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Speaker 3: oh my goodness again to you know, a young man

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Speaker 3: daring his peers that he could run a red light

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Speaker 3: or get away with the wall because he knows the

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Speaker 3: law well, because you know, his father is an FBI agent,

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Speaker 3: and you know, he wins the dare. He can run

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Speaker 3: the red light. Police officer can pull him over, and

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Speaker 3: he can say hey, I'm Ivy Hale's son, and he's like,

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Speaker 3: oh my goodness, okay, just don't do this again. And

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Speaker 3: then you know, fighting his way to be the best,

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Speaker 3: to try to find that worst inside of him, I think,

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Speaker 3: and then runs off with the governor's daughter, and next

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Speaker 3: thing you know, she doesn't find her worse in him,

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Speaker 3: and she's probably really ashamed of herself because she didn't

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Speaker 3: have a very upstanding family. From what I figured out,

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Speaker 3: either she took her life or however that story went down,

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Speaker 3: being his daughter, I have a feeling she probably was

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Speaker 3: pretty despondent of life. You know, she's pregnant, just don't

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Speaker 3: know what in the world she's done. And he marries again,

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Speaker 3: he has a son.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually gonna pause you because as the story goes,

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Speaker 2: no one was there, obviously, but she shot herself in

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Speaker 2: front of your dad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he comes, Okay, so I can only tell a story,

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Speaker 3: I know. Yeah, yeah, I almost like you had to

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Speaker 3: have this woman we live again, and you know, he

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Speaker 3: was like, came in the door, she had the shotgun

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Speaker 3: to her and I begged her not to do it,

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Speaker 3: and I lunched for the gun and it went off

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Speaker 3: in the back of the couch, and then she laid

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Speaker 3: limp in my arm and they took her to the hospital,

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Speaker 3: and I wouldn't believe she was dead, and they are

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Speaker 3: all telling me she was dead. Zoom ahead to my life.

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Speaker 3: I like know what she went to. No, de spatted

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Speaker 3: of life like and then he also had run away

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Speaker 3: from her wonderful probably whatever life was, you know, upstanding,

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Speaker 3: like she had to live up to what her family

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Speaker 3: was and it failed them. Now she failed everything. Why

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Speaker 3: would she want to be a mom? She was apparently pregnant.

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Speaker 3: And it's a really sad story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it sounds like it really affected him.

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Speaker 1: You know. Do you think that he was broken hearted

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Speaker 1: and that was kind of the reason that stuff started

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Speaker 1: unfolding the way that it did.

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Speaker 3: Well, he never got over it, that's for sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: he remarried, I guess a while later. But apparently he

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Speaker 3: couldn't even hug his mother, who he was really affectionate

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Speaker 3: type of a person and needed his mom hugs, And

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Speaker 3: apparently he couldn't even hug her, is what he told me.

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Speaker 3: He couldn't hug his mom for like at least a year.

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Speaker 3: He tried to be married. But that woman, I'm in

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Speaker 3: contact with her, I've been in contact with her over

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Speaker 3: the years, and she's like she couldn't stand him for

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Speaker 3: one day. I mean, he just beat her up and

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Speaker 3: all kinds of things. And so the next thing after

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Speaker 3: that whole thing, he decided to give up on anything

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Speaker 3: that was resemblance of the life he had lived, and

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Speaker 3: that was fancy rich. He'd already become a pilot by

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Speaker 3: the time, I think it was twenty and he had

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Speaker 3: like carvette and motorcycles, and he was he really had

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Speaker 3: life in his hand, I mean the world. Actually, there's

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Speaker 3: more to this story, like he became a saint worshiper.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, I can't, he said. He was in an

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Speaker 3: elevator and all of a sudden he realized that he

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Speaker 3: was deceiving even those people. He'd grown his hair out

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Speaker 3: and decided he gave away all his gave up this

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Speaker 3: whole world, and went back to Texas, And at one

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Speaker 3: point somewhere in here, his father ivy Hal took him

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Speaker 3: aside and said, Hey, I don't ever want to see

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Speaker 3: your eyes again. I don't I don't see your face.

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Speaker 3: You are nothing but a disappointment to me. Us kids

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Speaker 3: must have heard him say that about us so many times.

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Speaker 3: We were nothing disappointment to him.

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Speaker 2: Right, So he basically he decides to rebel against this

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Speaker 2: well to do upbringing and like disconnect from society and

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Speaker 2: become kind of this hippie figure and live off the land.

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Speaker 2: And then at some point that switches. He meets your mom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you meet your mom?

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Speaker 3: Okay, but there's yeah, there's a long long period in

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Speaker 3: that he had women after women, He had other kids,

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Speaker 3: and he became a leader. He everywhere he went, he

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Speaker 3: was a pretty much a leader, and people would just

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Speaker 3: bow down to him. He said, trees bowed down to him.

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Speaker 3: He was so empowered by everything he did. He even

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Speaker 3: had a step daughter that he went to He took

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Speaker 3: with him a little girl. He traveled to Andy Mountains

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Speaker 3: with a horse and his little girl, and honestly, it's

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Speaker 3: horrendous the stories that she went through. But it was

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Speaker 3: not any different and very abusive. He gets imported out

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Speaker 3: and he lands in the deserts of California, Apple Belly,

256
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Speaker 3: and there's where he meets my mother, who is sixteen.

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Speaker 3: He basically met her nude and saw her at the

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Speaker 3: hot springs. So when he saw my mother bending over

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Speaker 3: at the hot springs, he said that he heard a

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Speaker 3: voice from heaven that told him that this was going

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Speaker 3: to be his wife and that she was going to

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Speaker 3: bear him many children.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you so you were the first child of the

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Speaker 2: two of them, right, yep.

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Speaker 3: She had me on the deserts when she was seventeen.

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Speaker 3: I came early. My father had become like, you know,

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Speaker 3: the hippie midwife during that time. So you know, I

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Speaker 3: was born basically in a little sack. Because it's quite

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Speaker 3: this story, because I think it's a metaphor. My life

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Speaker 3: was perfect and bubble like, so perfect. That's how I

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Speaker 3: believe now. I believe God created me in this little

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Speaker 3: perfect bubble to be safe. And all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: you know, he takes the thorns and they just pops

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Speaker 3: that bubble and I'm this world of suffering that have

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Speaker 3: no idea it was there and little he called the

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Speaker 3: White House. I grew up in the wilderness. I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what that was. I thought the White House was

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Speaker 3: where the president lived, because I wasn't. No later did

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Speaker 3: I realize this little White House was just this tiny

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Speaker 3: little shack in the wilderness where dove's nests. But I've

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Speaker 3: had fears of height and couldn't understand what that was.

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Speaker 3: And then I've gone back to realize. My father would

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Speaker 3: tell me stories of how I would crawl to the

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Speaker 3: edge of this in this attic, there was this little hole,

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Speaker 3: and I'd wake up from a nap and I'd crawl

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Speaker 3: to edge and be screaming and crying. And so they

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00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,840
Speaker 3: put like a net, which that's good, so I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: and I would fall into this net, and apparently I

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Speaker 3: would just scream and scream, and he would just swap

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Speaker 3: me with the fly swatter a baby because I want

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Speaker 3: my parents. So even to this day, if I'm on top,

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Speaker 3: way up high on a grate or something, something goes

293
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Speaker 3: into my body, I'm just terrifying until I figured it

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Speaker 3: out was right right.

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Speaker 2: I think in your book you talked about how you

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Speaker 2: guys all went to church together and your mom wasn't

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Speaker 2: especially interested in this Christianity at first, but something happened

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Speaker 2: in your dad and you kind of attributed it to you,

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Speaker 2: which your dad he converts to Christianity, right, and he

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Speaker 2: starts believing that he needs to lead everyone to Jesus.

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Speaker 2: Is that an accurate way of discrissance.

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Speaker 3: Basically, he went from teaching Satan worship and being the

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Speaker 3: head lead as far as even jumping into fire not

304
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Speaker 3: getting burnt and throny at me. I have scars in

305
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Speaker 3: these day, huge scars on my leg. I was three

306
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Speaker 3: and he just like threw he told me the story.

307
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Speaker 3: So I heard the story from him and my mother.

308
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Speaker 3: But when I was three, I think he was just

309
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Speaker 3: sick of that world, and he went and visited identical

310
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Speaker 3: twin brother and got religion. You know. He decided that

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Speaker 3: he was the best and that no one had it right,

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Speaker 3: and so he took our family to the mountains of

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Speaker 3: New Mexico, into the wilderness and decided that, you know,

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Speaker 3: he would raise his own people, his own little his

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Speaker 3: own cult, and we as his family. He did take

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Speaker 3: hippies with him in the beginning, but alicopters came in

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Speaker 3: and arrested all of them except for my dad. That's

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Speaker 3: the crazy part. Oh wait, why because they were all

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Speaker 3: like outlaws or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You know, how many kids did your parents have at

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Speaker 1: this point.

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Speaker 3: When we moved to the mountains. Yeah, there was only

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Speaker 3: two of us. I was three years old, right.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, But they just started having a lot more,

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Speaker 2: a lot more kids after that. This description of the

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Speaker 2: way that you live is crazy. I think it was

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Speaker 2: like looking for a better adjective than that, but it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: Can you just like tell us a little bit about

329
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Speaker 2: what life was like and did you have electricity? Did

330
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Speaker 2: you have running water? That kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: We lived in a little cabin. You know, there was

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Speaker 3: a stage of living in a lean to for a while,

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00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 3: and then it moved into building a cabin around that

334
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,879
Speaker 3: and just a little log cabin. Little by little we

335
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,479
Speaker 3: gathered in or my father would hiccheck to town and

336
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,880
Speaker 3: we would, you know, come home with another animal, whether

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00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 3: it was a cow or and our animals grew. We

338
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 3: came there with horses and a dog and cats. But

339
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Speaker 3: let's see over the years, our animals just grew like

340
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Speaker 3: we had sheep. I was a shepherd. I really loved animals.

341
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Speaker 3: I would find my solace there. I would be able

342
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Speaker 3: to go to the animals and tell the mom my

343
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,159
Speaker 3: secrets because they didn't tell anybody. I found power in

344
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Speaker 3: that as well, because I was able to be in

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Speaker 3: control of something. And I could find love there because

346
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Speaker 3: I could give love. Even though animals, you know, they

347
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Speaker 3: really love maybe, but they showed me that they gave me.

348
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Speaker 3: They showed me that, you know, my love was worth

349
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Speaker 3: something as they followed me around and all that. So

350
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Speaker 3: I was five six years old, out in the mountains

351
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Speaker 3: looking for the milk cow with my brother and running

352
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Speaker 3: from the ram up and down the trees because he

353
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,359
Speaker 3: was trying to come after us or the bowl that

354
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 3: would mean and trying to run us over, and we'd

355
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Speaker 3: milk that cow. We'd fight over the stool. Sometimes a

356
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Speaker 3: cow would kick the bucket over and we'd come home

357
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Speaker 3: with tears because we knew our father would beat us

358
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Speaker 3: if we came home without milk. And let's see, my

359
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,120
Speaker 3: father placed a cross in the meadow that we weren't

360
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Speaker 3: allowed allowed to pass unless we stopped and prayed.

361
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Speaker 2: You didn't have running water, right, you didn't have electricity,

362
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Speaker 2: and you didn't have a bathroom.

363
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Speaker 1: And it was like a small area too, right.

364
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Speaker 3: The building was very small. We even added another addition

365
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,919
Speaker 3: on the back, but I mean you're talking about the

366
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 3: door was like two feet wide or it is, and

367
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Speaker 3: then if you're over six foot you can't stand up.

368
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 3: There was a tiny little floor area, tiny little kitchen

369
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Speaker 3: in a wood stove. You know. We had a well

370
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,199
Speaker 3: that we had dug in the yard and it was

371
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,880
Speaker 3: like fed by a spring, and so we'd haul water

372
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Speaker 3: in with five gallon buckets and we'd have a one

373
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Speaker 3: bucket in the house full of drinking water, and the

374
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 3: other bucket was slop bucket. We had a dipper there

375
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 3: where we drank out of We all shared. We weren't

376
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Speaker 3: allowed to have mirrors. We had this one tiny little

377
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,439
Speaker 3: mirror right by where we brushed our teeth, with a

378
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 3: cross in the middle of it. And if ever I

379
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 3: was looking in that to see myself, I was in trouble.

380
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Speaker 2: Wow.

381
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 3: So let's see. The potty was something that we had

382
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Speaker 3: in the middle of the room. We weren't allowed to

383
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 3: go to the bathroom around the corner because we weren't

384
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 3: allowed to look at ourselves, touch ourself, and we weren't

385
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,679
Speaker 3: allowed to look at each other. So it was very

386
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 3: difficult to go to the bathroom in the middle of

387
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 3: the room, right behind my father's chair and tried to

388
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 3: cover yourself. It just filled me with shame every time.

389
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 3: And yet you're in the stink and the stinch of it. Yeah,

390
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 3: and then just take it out and down into a

391
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 3: big poop hole what we called it. That we would

392
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 3: dig and us kids have to dig out And that

393
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 3: was my job many times, and usually I had a

394
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 3: little baby with me. I always had had a sibling

395
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 3: most of the time, either on my back or I'd

396
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 3: have them, you know, on a sled like I was

397
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 3: always had a child on my back or my stomach

398
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,119
Speaker 3: or something. What about I was doing chores?

399
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Speaker 1: What about school? Did you guys ever go to school?

400
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:40,200
Speaker 3: School? What was school? The school? Working hard and working

401
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 3: the midnight sun into the ground, and come in at

402
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 3: night and put the Bible on. He would put the

403
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,959
Speaker 3: Bible on, the King James Bible, or you know, if

404
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 3: I would be playing on a tape and we weren't

405
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,640
Speaker 3: allowed to make a sound, so we would stand and honestly,

406
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,920
Speaker 3: if we could start fall asleep and make a stand up,

407
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 3: we would be standing there to sleep. Wow, waiting for

408
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 3: Mom to make some dinner. And we're starving, hungry. We'd

409
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 3: been like working all day.

410
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Speaker 2: What was this reason for wanting to live like this?

411
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it was It was the godly way. It

412
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,160
Speaker 3: was the only way to live. If we didn't work hard,

413
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 3: and if we didn't live away from the world, the

414
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 3: world was very evil, very dark. There wasn't anybody in

415
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 3: the world like us, but we were always the prey

416
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 3: and that God would bring someone along that would be

417
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 3: like our family exactly. If we were to have fellowship,

418
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 3: but we needed to dig caves and holes, and if

419
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 3: someone came up our mountain, we had a hole in

420
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 3: the ground right underneath our carpet that was really hidden

421
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 3: where all of us kids would jump in really fast.

422
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 3: We thought we heard a car coming on my word,

423
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 3: that happened so many times, and.

424
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Speaker 2: Would CPS come? Was that what we were kind of

425
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 2: afraid of.

426
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 3: That Well, you know, I didn't even know what all

427
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 3: that meant. But if there were the police or they were.

428
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 3: And the other thing we were taught was that, you know,

429
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,239
Speaker 3: the world believes that you not allowed to beat your

430
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 3: kids and correct it. Actually, my father didn't use the word.

431
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 3: He didn't use the word spanking, He didn't use any

432
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 3: of that or whipping. He used the word correct. So

433
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 3: from my perspective, it was the world believes that you're

434
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 3: not supposed to correct your kids, and they're evil, and

435
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 3: so if they find out that I correct you, then

436
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 3: they would take you away and I'll never see you again,

437
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 3: and you never see each other again, and then you

438
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 3: would grow up in an evil world and they would

439
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,360
Speaker 3: put Goliath on and you would watch that and then

440
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 3: you would be defiled and you would never make it

441
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 3: to heaven because Gliath was the TV and that's something

442
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 3: he called it. And so we were terrified, terrified of

443
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 3: the world taking us away and turning us evil and

444
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 3: taking us away from each other.

445
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: Really, so oddly, there's a lot in common with how

446
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: I grew up. This is just so much more extreme.

447
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: Did Normans call it the world? Like that's what my

448
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: parents would always say, The world is trying to get

449
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: you in like punishment, very important, mind your parents, obey

450
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: your parents. All of those like verses are We're always red,

451
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: you know. So I actually kind of relate in the

452
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: smallest way possible. Yeah, it's like the one tent one pension,

453
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: no one tenth of a one percent version of that.

454
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: But like, do you find yourself still afraid of the

455
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 1: world or what happened with that?

456
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: I heard the script just like you know, the story

457
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 3: of in the Bible about how the prophet came out

458
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: and Elijah had gone to heaven, and I think it

459
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 3: was Elijah Elijah and Elisha, you know, is carrying the

460
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 3: mantle and these kids all come out and start mocking

461
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 3: him and says you have a bald head, and that

462
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 3: the bears came out of the mountains and malled these

463
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 3: kids and so like things like that, like if you're disrespectful,

464
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 3: if you mock, you talk back. Yeah, I'm the bears

465
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 3: and they were a mammy.

466
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: Got mallas, yeah smaller.

467
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 3: When Noah landed after the flood, he got drunk and

468
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: he was naked, and he was laying in his bed

469
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: and his younger son walked in and found him and

470
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 3: went out and mocked him and told his brothers, and

471
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 3: his brothers walked in, you know, in a respectful way

472
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 3: and covered him up. And when he woke up from

473
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 3: his drunkenness, his father cursed him and his generations to come.

474
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 3: And so it was a curse to speak father's nakedness.

475
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 3: And I was told that was like used against me.

476
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 3: Don't you ever tell don't ever tell about my nakedness.

477
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 3: And this is going forward in the story. But and

478
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 3: you know, like how he would molest right.

479
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: Right, I'll stop you there, so we don't go ahead.

480
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: But like, I think it's important to know how brainwashed

481
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: we are by these verses and by these stories.

482
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: Just to quick aside, can you tell us about the

483
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: Jack Nicholson connection to the property in New Mexico.

484
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of a crazy story. Really my father

485
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,959
Speaker 3: and I don't even know how true it all is,

486
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 3: but he said he went to the outhouse and to

487
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 3: the bathroom and he looks up and there's a note

488
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 3: and it said, you know, talked about this property that

489
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 3: Jack Nicholson owns and looking for a caretaker. At the time,

490
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: I think he was just a little like rainbow gathering

491
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 3: or something. This after he got religion, so he's like, okay,

492
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 3: God sending me this is where we're going. And he

493
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 3: connects to Jack Nicholson, sends him a letter and we

494
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 3: got a letter back. I actually just saw it. It's true.

495
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: Wow.

496
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 3: It gave us the property to rent for ten dollars

497
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 3: a month, to build on it and to live our life.

498
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: Yes, just to be caretakers of this like remote property.

499
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: Have you seen The Shining Bears asking no, I haven't.

500
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 3: You know. It's so funny. I still need to look

501
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 3: I need to like look up Jack Nicholson.

502
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

503
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: Okay, well a littla utah yeaheah.

504
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 2: So I mean obviously a very very famous actor, but

505
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: one of his most famous roles is this film called

506
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: The Shining and he plays a caretaker of a very

507
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 2: remote hotel who loses his mind and starts trying to

508
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: kill his family. So yeah, so y'all were living on

509
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 2: the property owned by the man who is like this

510
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: figure in the culture. Just obviously fictional, but like that

511
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 2: is such a crazy connection.

512
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 3: That's crazy.

513
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: You didn't know that.

514
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: I can't believe that it is in the book. So

515
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: I assumed you you kind of understood what the parallels were.

516
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: But that's super interesting. Wow.

517
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my, look up that crazy.

518
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 2: I know you should see it. I mean, it's scary,

519
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: but I love them.

520
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: It's worth at least read the summary of it because

521
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: it's weird that you guys are Yeah.

522
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's like coming after his what anyway, Yeah,

523
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: back to the story. So before we start talking about

524
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 2: this physical abuse sexual abuse, I want to know, like

525
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 2: what your relationship was like with your dad when you

526
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: were really young, Like how did you view him? What

527
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: was he? Who was he to you?

528
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 3: Uh? Yeah, he was a god to me. I looked

529
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: up to my dad. I first some reason, was a

530
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 3: daddy's girl. He was the one that gave me affection.

531
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 3: I don't even know where and how this happened, but

532
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 3: I personally didn't feel like my mom wanted me, and

533
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 3: she said that I weaned myself when I was a

534
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: year old, which I felt like she was upset with

535
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 3: me about. I thought she was mad at me for

536
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 3: weaning myself and then begin a daddy's girl. I just

537
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 3: felt like I was supposed to be there with him

538
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 3: and make him happy. And that's the message I had

539
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 3: got I'm talking about really little, and I felt so

540
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 3: much shame when he got mad, even if he got

541
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: mad at Mama, I thought it was my fault because

542
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: I was supposed to make him happy. And then I

543
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 3: did make him happy, and then I was his little girl,

544
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 3: and I didn't know what it was like to be

545
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 3: anywhere else other than sleeping in his arms. At the

546
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 3: same time, he would beat the devil out of me,

547
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 3: that's what he said. I mean, even in those moments,

548
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 3: I'm thinking he's telling me that that's his pure love

549
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 3: for me, and that he had to beat the devil

550
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: out of me to keep me pure. And I found myself.

551
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 3: I'm talking about four years old. I'm crawling out of

552
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: my bed, and the first thing I'm supposed to do,

553
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: I see Papa sitting there in front of the fireplace

554
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 3: and the fire's, you know, flickering, and my mama's bending

555
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 3: down over the fireplace, you know, making his coffee. He's

556
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 3: got the Bible in his hand and he's just preaching

557
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: away and excited and sipping on his coffee. And I

558
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 3: know where I'm supposed to go, and that's in his lap,

559
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 3: and give him a big kiss on the lip, because

560
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: I knew there was times I had tried, like I

561
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: just wanted to go to bathroom first, So there was

562
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: also there was a part of me I really felt

563
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: trapped there. But I had learned that I got really

564
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 3: in big trouble if I did anything else first. So

565
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: the first thing I was supposed to do, My focus

566
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: was supposed to be on him at all times. One percent.

567
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 3: He was God. I didn't see it then, like, oh

568
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 3: he's my God.

569
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's all you know how you're completely isolated,

570
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: right anything else?

571
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 3: Yeah?

572
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: What were your siblings in the same boat or was

573
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: your relationship with him a little bit closer?

574
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, my relationship was like Alishaba was supposed to

575
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 3: Actually I was Butterfly SunStar, and then I was Elizabeth

576
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: when he got religion. So you know, when I was little,

577
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: it was Elizabeth, and Elizabeth's supposed to be in my lap.

578
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 3: Elizabeth supposed to be right here, she's this is her job.

579
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: That's how I saw it. This is my job. Wow.

580
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 3: It was terrifying, like when he made these religious moments

581
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 3: of change, like he would see he sat us down

582
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: and he's like, Okay, I've got a revelation from God,

583
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 3: and I'm going to tell you guys something. And it

584
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 3: was just like the air was getting ready to just

585
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 3: suck us in with vibration and we were going to

586
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: be like the earth was going to shake, and we

587
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: were getting ready to like probably either being buried under

588
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 3: thousands and thousands of tons of earth or we're getting

589
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 3: ready to go to heaven really good or really bad.

590
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: It'd be shaking, tiny little girl, you know. And he says, so,

591
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 3: you know, the Bible talks about how Jesus called his

592
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 3: father Abba, and from now on, You're not going to

593
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 3: call me daddy anymore. I'm going to be Papa. And immediately,

594
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 3: you know, it's like he's like, God, I have to

595
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 3: call him papa. But what if? And I was just

596
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: kind of like, it really scared. What if I mistakenly

597
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: calling daddy? You know, it's just like, oh no, and

598
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 3: and and when every time I mistakenly call him daddy,

599
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: I'm just like my body just rings and it feels

600
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: like what happened to Daddy? Did Daddy die?

601
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: Yeah?

602
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: You know, and kind of.

603
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: This new picture of Papa God Abba, And then it

604
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 3: gets bad, it gets even worse. I'm a girl. Even

605
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: though I'm a tom girl and I'm working really hard outside,

606
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: I still love my little Dolly. We didn't have a lot,

607
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: and I love to pretend I was mommy. I really

608
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 3: wanted to be a mummy. And all of a sudden,

609
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: he's like, I got another one, and he's actually excited.

610
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh no, what's going to happen.

611
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: Now, another revelation?

612
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I think in those moments I would feel

613
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 3: so evil inside five year old, just like I'm so

614
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,719
Speaker 3: evil when he says, your doll is an idol and

615
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: you're worshiping it, and we are to worship no other

616
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: idol except for God, no other graven image. This is

617
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: a grave, fifth graven image. And we need to take

618
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 3: your toys and your doll and your stuff teddy bears,

619
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 3: and we need to put them in this feedsack. And

620
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: we're going and this is going to be something we're

621
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 3: going to rejoice about. And we load up in the truck,

622
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 3: the old forty one Chevy truck, and we drive down

623
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: the mountain to the old community dump. But inside, I'm like,

624
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: this is terrifying. How did I not know that I'm

625
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 3: worshiping my doll? I love my doll, so it must

626
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: be true. And then the tears drip down my eyes

627
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: and I feel even more evil as I watched that

628
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 3: thing tumble down the hill, you know, like, oh no,

629
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: why did I just cry? Don't let him see because

630
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: this means I love it.

631
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, I just the level of confusion that you

632
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: must have just been constantly experiencing at that age, because

633
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: he's constantly telling you that these perfectly normal, healthy, good

634
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: things that a kid does are wrong, anything that you

635
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: do is wrong, and then he's changing it on you

636
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: all the time, so you're just constantly being made to

637
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: feel like you're bad, you're sinful, who you are is bad,

638
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: and then he changes it. So I just can't even

639
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: imagine how you would even conceive of reality and any like, yeah,

640
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: it's consistent.

641
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: Way all to the whim of how he feels that day,

642
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: and like how he feels like you're not giving him

643
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: enough attention almost and it's just it's awful.

644
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 2: So he bands just like playing pretend, right.

645
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean none of it. All of it

646
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: was just about as real as real can be. I

647
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 3: remember in the front of our cabin, we'd have a

648
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 3: in the summertime, we'd have like a campfire going in

649
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 3: this little wooden table that was out and there. I

650
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: just there's memories of holding onto my little brothers underneath

651
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: that table, tucked up even where the chicken would have

652
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 3: her little nest and she would sit and just holding them,

653
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 3: not knowing when the next moment was we were all

654
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 3: going to die because he's yelling. I mean, the mountains

655
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 3: shook when he yelled at mom. I'm screaming back at

656
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: him and like and they're like clawing at each other.

657
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: That's how I saw it. I'm just praying to Jesus, Jesus,

658
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: please save us, Please save us, please save us, and

659
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: please encourage Papa. Encourage Papa because we're going to die,

660
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: and try and encourage my brothers because there was little

661
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: brothers in my arms and it was just terrifying. I

662
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 3: haven't even mentioned the abuse yet. Of the physical. I'm

663
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 3: telling you the spiritual and the emotional that I went

664
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 3: through inside of me as a little girl. It was

665
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 3: so like shaped and formed spiritually and emotionally as I

666
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 3: really truly believed in my father, and I truly believed

667
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 3: that what he said was true, and yet it was

668
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 3: so confusing.

669
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: Do you want to just give us a little window

670
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,959
Speaker 2: into his violence? I mean how he punished you guys,

671
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: whatever you're comfortable with.

672
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like you know, I think even as a

673
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 3: little girl, I felt like I was going crazy because

674
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 3: he would tell me I'm lying about something, and it

675
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 3: was so confusing, like I didn't think I'd lied, and

676
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: how did I lie? And then as soon as I

677
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,479
Speaker 3: asked how did I lie? It would just he would

678
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: fling off the handle and say, go get a whip

679
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 3: from the trees. And now I'm still talking, little tiny girl,

680
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 3: and I'm like, please tell me what did I lie about?

681
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 3: He said, you know what you lied about? And every

682
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 3: time I heard you know, and then I'd be like

683
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 3: trying to figure out. And if I couldn't figure it out,

684
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 3: he would whip me and beat me and beat me

685
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 3: until I figured it out. And most of the time

686
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 3: I couldn't figure it out. Yeah, and if he told

687
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,479
Speaker 3: me what it was, that would cost me at least

688
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 3: a week of being kicked out of the house, serving

689
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: the family, doing nothing but chors all day long, not

690
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 3: having food, and meeting him with the whip throughout the day.

691
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 3: And for a seven year old, it just really confused me.

692
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 3: And I was scared to death to tell the truth.

693
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: And I was scared to death to lie. Oh, it's

694
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 3: like if I or if I didn't tell him, there

695
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 3: was no way out. And I started if I was

696
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 3: must be really crazy, I really think, I don't think

697
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: I'm I'm a I'm a normal person. And and then

698
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: my father would set me at his feet and tell

699
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 3: me that I had the best memory in the family.

700
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 3: And then I needed to help him remember the whole week,

701
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: and he would write it down on a calendar, all

702
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,959
Speaker 3: the things that happened that week, and all the things

703
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 3: that everybody did wrong, and all the times that they

704
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 3: got a beating, and all the times that we did it,

705
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: and and so it just was so confusing. I he

706
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: tells me, I'm really, really smart, and then I'm really

707
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 3: I have I can remember all the names of a

708
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 3: hundred sheep I could remember what happened, but then I

709
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 3: must be crazy. I must And so the beatings that

710
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 3: would be so desperately hard because I also started to

711
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 3: think in my mind evil thoughts of my father and

712
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 3: I and I would think, oh no, now I got

713
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 3: to confess that I had this evil thought. And those

714
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 3: thoughts were like he likes me have hurt. Because I

715
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 3: would hold out my hands and he would whip my

716
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 3: arms right on my wrist, and the blistard was just rise.

717
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 3: I got to tell you that your wrist is probably

718
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 3: one of the most tenderest places on your body. There's

719
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 3: just a lot of feeling there, and so he would

720
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 3: do it all my hand. My hands were always very

721
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 3: callous and bloody and full of you know, working blisters. Attle,

722
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 3: tiny girl. I mean, I worked hard. But then if

723
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: I moved at all or screened, it would go right

724
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 3: on my wrist. And then if I moved, it would

725
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 3: go over my back and my neck and my head

726
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 3: and whip around my cheeks. He started using the bull whip,

727
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 3: and he had us all braid this what we called

728
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 3: our sling, this leather four braided sling. But it would

729
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: it would go around our necks and tuck into our

730
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: little belts, which are always wore skirts. So my skirt,

731
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 3: I would wear a belt with all my knives and

732
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 3: my everything, but that thing would just come right off

733
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 3: our shoulders every time we needed a whipping.

734
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: And you wear your weapon to get whipped.

735
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 2: Whoa yep wow. What was your relationship like with your

736
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: mom during all of this? Like, you know, she's obviously

737
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 2: bearing the brunt of the violence too, but like, how

738
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: are you all surviving together? Are you able to connect

739
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: with her at all?

740
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 3: So there's a difference between me and my brothers. I

741
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: was jealous of my brothers because they had this connection

742
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 3: with Mom, and she would talk to them. She would

743
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: like give them food. Sometimes I saw her sneak food

744
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 3: out the windows. And there was times where like my

745
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: mom would would be really good about like if I

746
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 3: got sick, she would like, really, she's really good at

747
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 3: caring for you when you were sick, And so I

748
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 3: I would do everything I could to try to get sick.

749
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: Times I would like try to take my temperature and

750
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 3: I try to make it hot, and I would like

751
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: pretend it was like really really hot and somehow tried

752
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 3: to heat it up so I could pretend I had

753
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 3: a fever, and she was so good at that. But

754
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: other than that, I was jealous of my mom because

755
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 3: it didn't feel like she wanted me. I felt like

756
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 3: I was not wanted by her, and I didn't think

757
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 3: she loved me really, and so we would get pitted

758
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 3: against each other by my dad as well. She didn't

759
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 3: really want me to learn how to cook or do things,

760
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 3: so I had to figure it out on my own,

761
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 3: and then my father would use that against her. You know,

762
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 3: at least book can cook, she can get it done.

763
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 3: She can do all the chores and get some compliment

764
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 3: for what I do, for all my heart's work. That

765
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 3: felt good, But then it didn't feel good to have

766
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: Mama look at me with those eyes that just shuddered.

767
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: I mean, I was shut her inside when she looked

768
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: at me. Now, I'm not saying it's true, but I

769
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 3: don't know, but I'm saying in my heart, I told myself,

770
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 3: Mom likes me to be in trouble. She would just

771
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 3: love for me to be out of here. And so

772
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: she did you get me in trouble?

773
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you didn't have any safe adult. Really, there

774
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 2: was no one to really like soothe you or make

775
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: you feel a sense of stability. I mean, did you

776
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: have any brothers that you had that relationship with or

777
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: were you just really totally alone in this well.

778
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 3: I was the oldest. I became the oldest of fifteen

779
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 3: brothers and sisters. So I was the one who was

780
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 3: supposed to do that, and I wasn't the best sister

781
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 3: at times either. I would add of all the anguish

782
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 3: and the referring. So another thing that really happened horribly

783
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 3: in our family was that one would be referred over

784
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 3: another and then it would switch, like all of a sudden,

785
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 3: so and so is better than the rest of you,

786
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 3: and I'm going to reward. So my father would use reward,

787
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 3: and he would use horrible discipline where we would I

788
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: think the worst for me was hearing my siblings cry

789
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: around a corner when they were being beat and just

790
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 3: always wanting to be there to see it because I

791
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: just it was terrifying, like terrifying. I was afraid somebody

792
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 3: was going to die. I was always afraid someone's going

793
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 3: to die.

794
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 2: I'm gonna just give a little warning here, y'all. There

795
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: is about to be a graphic description of something that

796
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 2: her dad did to an animal's body. It's about three

797
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: minutes long, and go ahead and skip ahead if you

798
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 2: don't have the stomach for that right now.

799
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 3: It might have started out when my father took The

800
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: first thing that I saw die was my dog, our

801
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 3: family dog, big sacron our dog. And it was just

802
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 3: this really eery feeling in the air again where my

803
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 3: father was mixed with anger and silence and demand, where

804
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 3: he told me follow me, you stay with me, and

805
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 3: he just like threw this beloved part of our family

806
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 3: named Mountain over the back of his shoulder. I'd never

807
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 3: seen any die. I didn't know what that meant. And

808
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 3: I'm walking him holding the knife, terrified. I'm shaking, and

809
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: he walks down a path and froze it on the ground.

810
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 3: He's mad. He strings it up, his dog into the

811
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 3: tree and shaking. Why he skinned him like he was

812
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 3: like he he made him bare and naked, he was white,

813
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: and just left him hanging in the tree and then

814
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 3: on the hide over his shoulder. And I walked behind

815
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: him and I just looked at mountains hide, you know,

816
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 3: his his his nose and everything hanging over his shoulder

817
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 3: and dripping blood down my father's back and not a

818
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 3: word like other than follow me, okay, hold this, and

819
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 3: then it spread out, you know, dried out flat into

820
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: the attic of our little cabin. And and one time

821
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 3: I was in uch trouble like for I don't know

822
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 3: what he did or what I did, honestly, but he

823
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 3: had killed my kitty, or I thought he had, out

824
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 3: of a moment of anger and flying off the handle,

825
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 3: and she's on for weeks, and I think I was

826
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 3: really resentful still I'm talking seven years old, okay. But

827
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 3: his punishment doesn't even work. So I'm going to try

828
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 3: something different. And You're going to lay upstairs and you're

829
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 3: not going to move, and I'm laying on mountains hide

830
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 3: for a day after day in one spot I'm not

831
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 3: allowed to move. There's a bucket right there for me

832
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 3: to get up and go p in. That's it. And

833
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: either I hear the creaching. I hear it creaching on

834
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 3: the front of the cabin is as you know, somebody's coming.

835
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 3: And the hope and the longing that it was food,

836
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 3: and most of the time it was Papa with and

837
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: he just whipped me and the blisters that was just

838
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 3: you raising my hand around the leg. And then I'm

839
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 3: laying there screaming and crying in God, why, and I

840
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 3: would just beg please send an angel, please take me away,

841
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: take me away.

842
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: It is so crazy. Sorry to interrupt, I'm just like,

843
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: this is yeah.

844
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: It's a horror movie. Times blocked up abroad, like being

845
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 1: in a prison.

846
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 2: And an unfathomable amount of pain like this is torture.

847
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: What you're describing. I just cannot fucking sorry, I cannot imagine.

848
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. The most amazing thing for me looking

849
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 3: back over my life is those times that I was

850
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 3: so alone and in so much pain, and my little

851
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 3: girl was crying out for somebody, for the god that

852
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 3: this God that I saw and understood to be a

853
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 3: god of revenge, a god of hate, a god of

854
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 3: like you know, you do exactly what I say, or

855
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 3: else you're hell bound. And I knew I was wicked inside.

856
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter how bad my dad the devil out

857
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 3: of me. But the Jesus that showed up for me,

858
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 3: and I heard about him too, He was the Jesus

859
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 3: that like took little children Joe's lap and stopped all

860
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: the adults and said, no, you stop the children. I

861
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: love these little children. You got to become like a

862
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 3: child want to be my friend. And then I was

863
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 3: a shepherd, so I knew that he said he I've

864
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 3: done for his sheep. I mean they he made the

865
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 3: way he was the door. Like this is a fantasy,

866
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 3: but that's the Jesus I wish, And yet he did.

867
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 3: And you know, someone may really think I'm crazy for

868
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 3: saying this, but like he did send me an angel.

869
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 3: Guess who would show up my best friend? And that

870
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 3: was the kittie and she was my best friend and

871
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 3: she would cuddle with me, and she she there was

872
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 3: I could never have another cat because I've tried. They're

873
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 3: just not another kiddie like that kiddie who I thought

874
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 3: was dead, and she shows up and sneaks into the

875
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 3: attic and cuddles with me. So it was times like

876
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 3: that did I realize that I really wasn't alone. My

877
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 3: kiddy was with me.

878
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: It's amazing, like you're going through this unimaginable suffering and

879
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 2: you are still able to survive through that and through

880
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: this connection to animals. It's like you don't have an adult,

881
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: you don't have any siblings who are older than you

882
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 2: to care for you. You have nothing but pain, but

883
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: then you have You're still able to like find the

884
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 2: thing in life that can comfort you and bring you

885
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: through it.

886
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: I mean horrible, horrible. How long were you in the

887
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: attic for?

888
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 3: It was at least a week, it was crazy, and

889
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 3: it was like ten days. It could have been two weeks,

890
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: you know, in your brain, your little mind. It's hard

891
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: to put. I didn't even hardly know. It was day

892
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 3: and night. It was a long time.

893
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 2: Wow, how would you even pass the time in your mind? Like,

894
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: what would you even be thinking about for that long

895
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 2: of a period of just isolation.

896
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 3: Well, I actually thought I was going crazy again. I

897
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 3: so thought I was going crazy, you know, because how

898
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 3: to have a bad thought, I'm not allowed to think.

899
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 3: But I think what I did is I fantasized and

900
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 3: I thought a lot about you know, I still have

901
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 3: dreams about it. But like, would just fantasize somebody come

902
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 3: in and rescuing me and somebody taking me, or my

903
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 3: dad seeing something really really bad happened to me, and

904
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 3: then him changing his mind that I was actually worth

905
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 3: something to him and that I wouldn't he wasn't worth

906
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 3: you know, me dying over or some or I'd imagine

907
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 3: that someone would try to take me away and all

908
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 3: of a sudden, my dad would come in and like

909
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 3: be my rescuer. And it's crazy to say this, but like,

910
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 3: you know, I wanted my dad to rescue me and

911
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 3: wanted him to like change, of course the other thing.

912
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 3: At that point, I had already had this dream that

913
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 3: I held very close to my heart and never wanted

914
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 3: to tell anybody. But now that I've shared my story,

915
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 3: I love to share it. So I woke up one

916
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: morning and was very upset because I didn't want to

917
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: wake up. And this is before I was an attic,

918
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 3: but I had dreamed that I was walking through the

919
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 3: front yard and when the grass was tall, it was

920
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 3: our yard, but like there was this huge, huge being

921
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: it was gone, and his hand was down stretched out

922
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 3: to me. I couldn't see anything but part of his

923
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 3: leg and his hand, and I was holding on. And

924
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 3: you know times you're like you see yourself from behind

925
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 3: and then you're in it, And so in my dream,

926
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 3: back and forth, I was holding his hand and I

927
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: had never felt so safe in all my life, Like

928
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: that feeling of it's like something you just never want

929
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 3: to let go of because I didn't know it. And

930
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 3: then I was seeing myself and I was like, my goodness,

931
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 3: I'm tiny, and I was just like leaping up and down.

932
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 3: And the dream took me to the shed where I

933
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 3: had been barred in and like, and it was really

934
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 3: really dirty and awful. My father had treated me horrible

935
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 3: out there in the shed and in this place. And

936
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 3: now I just remember I don't remember actually how old

937
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 3: I was. Maybe I was older than I was actually

938
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 3: older when I had the dream, because now I remember

939
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 3: the in the dream, I had been like even sexually

940
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 3: abused like I had. My father had really treated me

941
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 3: horrible in the shed. So the shed was a place

942
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 3: of it was a prison, it was torment. And I'm

943
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 3: back into the shed, which was a really horrible place.

944
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 3: But there was Jesus and he was looking at me

945
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 3: and he had all my word. So I can't even

946
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 3: find a picture of him. I've tried find something that

947
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 3: brings back that look in his eyes that was so

948
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 3: full of love and compassion and kindness. And I couldn't

949
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 3: understand why he was there, like what are you doing

950
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: in this place? This is not where Jesus would be,

951
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 3: but there where I had suffered, And he was telling

952
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 3: me he loved me, but he didn't say any words.

953
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 3: All he had to do was look at me. And

954
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 3: in that moment, like I was just wanting to curl

955
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 3: up to him and frame the hole meat. And I

956
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: woke up and I was so mad. So a lot

957
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 3: of times in those times where I would be out

958
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 3: like in trouble and digging post hole diggers and be

959
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 3: digging like one hole after another with blisters in my hand,

960
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 3: I would just fantasize on that that God, that's not true,

961
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 3: but you know that's how I saw it.

962
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: I mean, little strands of hope, that's what you were

963
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 2: constructing to help yourself survive him. I think that's like

964
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 2: very very amazing. You're like the one single blade of

965
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 2: grass that pokes through the cement, you know what I mean.

966
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: I'm like, you're finding the things to hold onto, and yeah,

967
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 2: it's remarkable in my opinion.

968
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 3: You know, we actually do have a way of surviving.

969
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 3: And in that survival, we keep moving, we keep going,

970
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 3: we don't give up where we sew it is that's

971
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 3: the right way sit it. But I would just like

972
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 3: come back every time, living and keep pressing on, just

973
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 3: like that little little plant that underneath the concrete that

974
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 3: just like keeps trying to make its way to find

975
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: the sun, and you keep trying, and you keep trying,

976
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 3: but we don't give up. We keep pressing to find

977
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 3: that sun. And we're telling ourselves there's something wrong with me.

978
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 3: I'm crazy, But we're really opposite. We're the most amazing

979
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 3: human beings willing to not give up and press to

980
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 3: the hardest of things and really pop out someday and

981
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 3: find the sun.

982
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, my makeup? Okay, Well, this episode doesn't really

983
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: seem to warrant me asking you if you would join

984
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: this cult. I think we'll just leave it at that

985
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 2: and we can hear the rest in part two next week.

986
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,720
Speaker 1: What do you think that sounds great? Thank you guys

987
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: so much for being here. We can't wait to see

988
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: you again next week and as always, remember to follow

989
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: your gut watch out for red flax. Never ever trust me,

990
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 1: Bye Bye.

991
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

992
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

993
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para and.

994
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: Her theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

995
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

996
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

997
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

998
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,959
Speaker 2: I'm oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

999
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: And I Am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1000
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1001
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:34,919
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.